Loading summary
Transcript117 lines
- [00:00]
Sponsor
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed. Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of the most useful things of my life lately has been my Apple card. It's great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer, and then start using your card in minutes. Do it while you're watching a basketball game and you can start making purchases before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3% daily cash back on every single purchase. That's more money for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Applying the wallet app on your iPhone then start using it right away with Apple pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com.
- [01:29]
Cole Kushna
Welcome everyone, to a special episode of Dissect. I am Cole Kushna, and today I'm joined with the core team of season six on Lemonade. We have co host and co writer Titi Show Dia. How you doing, TT I'm good.
- [01:43]
Titi Show Dia
How are you?
- [01:44]
Cole Kushna
I'm good, I'm good. And we also have the silent assassin, Ms. Maggie Lacy, who we're hearing for the first time, but you guys have been hearing her, her words through us throughout the season. How you doing, Maggie?
- [01:58]
Maggie Lacy
I'm doing great.
- [01:59]
Cole Kushna
For those that don't know, Maggie wrote, I want to say about half the episodes, the half the scripts or so. I haven't done a formal count, but sounds about right, right?
- [02:08]
Maggie Lacy
Yeah.
- [02:08]
Cole Kushna
I wanted to kind of just briefly introduce you you to the audience since you're such an important part of this this season. I'll kind of give the backstory. Real quick how I found you. There's a lot of preliminary research that went into this season and I basically made kind of like a log of all the essays and all the articles and everything that I found that I enjoyed and thought were insightful about Lemonade. And you had written a thesis paper on Lemonade and it was the one that I kept going back to a lot and I just found myself going back to that one in particular. And then when the opportunity, when I had the idea of maybe bringing in another writer. I kind of just thought of you first, not knowing really anything about you. And it took me some. Some MacGyvering to find you. You're. You're not ready. Readily available on the Internet. You don't have social media, or. I couldn't find your social media at the time. I think I. I was trying to think of how I actually ended up getting in touch with you. I think I contacted your place of work. I found out where you worked. Not creepy at all, but I found out where you worked, and I emailed, I think maybe your boss or something. Yeah. Is that right?
- [03:34]
Maggie Lacy
Yeah. I work at a preschool, so it was kind of out of left field for them.
- [03:38]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. So let me. So I guess just tell us a little bit about your paper and kind of what the focus of that was, what went into that? Just for those that don't know.
- [03:55]
Maggie Lacy
Yeah. So I went to college at Regis University, and I majored in religious studies. And by the end, I was a little burnt out. So I needed to figure out a way to incorporate Beyonce into my paper to get interested again. But once I started researching Lemonade and seeing all the Christian imagery in there, it led me to some womanist theologians, and particularly Kelly Brown Douglas. She writes about crossroads theater theology, which is essentially the idea that blues music has a lot to say about theology, God, religion. So as I was reading her work, I was seeing a lot of parallels between Beyonce in Lemonade and her journey and some of the journeys of blues women in the past. I saw her taking up very similar actions and resources. And then by the end of the film, I thought her vision of redemption really aligned with some of the ideas of crossroads theology.
- [05:13]
Cole Kushna
So. Yeah. For those that aren't familiar with what crossroads theology is, do you want to give us just a cliff notes version of that?
- [05:21]
Maggie Lacy
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, crossroads theology is a branch of womanist theology that was created by Kelly Brown Douglas and Sean Copeland. And they essentially argue that a lot of perspectives have been shut out of theology historically, but that by learning from certain perspectives, we gain such valuable insights into how we should frame religious thinking. And so they particularly look at experiences of blues people in the Reconstruction era, kind of the early 20th century, and how they were navigating what they had to say about God and religion. And there's kind of a misconception that blues is secular or the devil's music, all this stuff. But they argued that their perspectives are super valuable in terms of thinking about the divine, in ways that actually integrate the sacred and the secular.
- [06:31]
Cole Kushna
Got It. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed that work and basically, long story short, I found you and brought you onto the season and yeah, you were just a incredible voice and perspective and thinking around this work. So definitely great to have you this season.
- [06:50]
Maggie Lacy
Thank you so much.
- [06:51]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. So the scope of today's episode basically is just mostly going to be listener submitted questions, some kind of unanswered questions about Lemonade people had I wanted to address up top, a couple of things that we were asked about frequently that we won't so much address here today because we are planning to address it in a week from now. And that is we got a lot of questions about if we're going to talk about 444 and or everything is Love. We do have an episode of on both of those albums coming next week. So we're not going to talk about it here because I feel like we said most of what we wanted to say in that episode. So that's coming. We also got some questions about Black is King which is the new Beyonce film that is coming out on July 31st. We are currently brainstorming about possibly doing an episode about that. So we obviously haven't seen the film yet, so we can't talk about it much here. But it does look amazing by the trailer and I think we'll likely do something on that. So be on the lookout for that possibly in August. And then the other thing that I get asked this a lot about every season, but we were asked about it specifically for this season, which is whether Beyonce has listened to, approved of, helped us with the season at all. That is a big fat no, or at least as much as I know. So. And, and that's the case for all past seasons. I don't know if the artists listen or, or what. And they don't help me at all or approve things. So just to get those things out of the way. So I'm going to ask my. My personal question to you guys, which was basically what I asked our listeners to submit, which is that if you listen to the finale episode, you heard a montage of our listeners sharing their biggest takeaway from Lemonade. And it's kind of a more personal aspect which we don't get to do too much on the show. So I wanted to take this opportunity to ask you guys what your biggest takeaway from Lemonade was. And I'll start with you.
- [09:03]
Titi Show Dia
TT I think for me the biggest takeaway was that because I've consumed Beyonce for many years as a young black girl to a black woman she's always been around. I think I said this in the first bonus episode that we recorded that I don't remember a time not listening to Beyonce or Destiny's Child. It's kind of hard to even imagine a time where she didn't exist. But the way that I consumed her was in, I think, only like, a pop sense, where it was like, oh, this is a great song to dance to. I didn't really think too. Too much about the lyrics, and, you know, loved the music videos, loved the. The artistry and the performance part of it. But I think for me, with Lemonade and working on this show, it really made me view her in a different light. And so my biggest takeaway was, was that this is scholarly work. It's more than just a lot of an album with pop songs that you can dance to, some slow songs, some sad songs that you can cry to. It is telling a story, and it's not just about the past. It's also contributing to the historical record of the present. And so I think that that's really impactful, really, that what she's doing, because, I mean, as we've seen, it's still relevant, and it's really important to tell these stories and to show how we got here and what black people are still going through. And I think it always kind of harkens back to that Zora Neale Hurston quote where she says, if you're silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say that you enjoyed it. And I think that Beyonce really feels that, where she's like, I have to speak to it. I. I have to speak my pain. I have to speak my truth and the pain of black people because we have this shared experience. And that's what I feel like Lemonade does.
- [11:04]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, that's great. How about you, Maggie?
- [11:07]
Maggie Lacy
I think for me, what I've been thinking about with it a lot lately is just the bravery that it takes for her to open up like that and to show you. Yeah. All of that pain and all of that process and come out on the other side. I think it's a really powerful example of true, real love for herself, to reaffirm herself in the midst of all of this pressure, to then take that love that she's rooted, that self love, and then extend it to her partner and her family and empathize, but also hold accountable. And then, though the story could end there, she takes it even further to love and her hope for that love to transform society as a whole.
- [12:04]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, that's. And that kind of ties into my. My takeaway. I kind of shared my takeaway at the very, very end of the finale episode. So I'll keep my. My response short, but that was one of the things that I really. You. You feel it when I felt it when I watched Lemonade. But I don't know, maybe there's a lot of people smarter than me, but I certainly can't imagine watching Lemonade in real time and understanding everything that's going on. It's so impressionistic and abstract in a lot of ways. But once you really dig in, like we kind of got to do with this season, you just, you just touched on. There's so many layers baked in. There's. There's the personal story about infidelity and redemption that is very specific to Jay Z and Beyonce. But then there's this like, Titi touched on. There's this larger narrative about the black experience, the past and the present and how those intertwine. But then, yeah, like, but like you just mentioned too, like, at the very core it is about love and it's about this kind of universal struggle and acceptance. And, and we've probably all been in relationships where you are forced. The. The conflicts of that relationship really magnify you as a person. And like, it's always. It's that thing about if you don't know yourself, if you don't love yourself, it's really, really hard, if not impossible to love someone else. And I think, you know, Beyonce herself described this experience of making Lemonade and, and going through that conflict with Jay Z as, you know, she specifically said it changed her and it forced her to go on her own personal journey of self discovery. And I think, you know, if you think about Beyonce, life is so atypical and how she grew up basically performing her whole life was famous at a very young age. I can see how you would kind of get. Lot like who you are gets lost in that and if you. And never having the time yet to really figure out who you are, which I feel like probably most of us end up doing at some point and especially it's probably in our 20s that, that it happens. And so that was kind of for me just something really great about this album. How she was able to, you know, put all like bake those layers successfully into this work. And that's, you know, very hard to do and very hard to make so accessible at the same time. So, yeah, so let's get into the. The listener questions. These came from. We basically asked on social media, Twitter, Reddit and instagram we pulled kind of. We're going to get to as many as we. We can. We can't answer all of them, but we got some really great questions. And I'm going to start it here, which is kind of relating to what we're already talking about, but it's from Beyhive Boy 4 and he or she. I don't know. Not sure. Asked, has your analysis of the Lemonade album and film either affirmed or altered your personal view on the ethical responsibility of art? In short, how does Lemonade make you or call you to become a better human? Titi. You want to take a stab at that one?
- [15:29]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah. I think that for me, because my background is in the scientific community, and so a lot of my focus throughout my life has been how science contributes to society. And working on this heightened my ability to understand how art also influences society. And when you think about it, because it kind of like sent me down this rabbit hole about how. Because she's not the first to do this. You know, there have been people who have made music art and different types of using different mediums in the art space to speak to current events and speak to the past and trying to tell a story. And I think that the way it's done has been expanded. I think what Beyonce is doing and did with Lemonade is give a lot of people more license to speak their truth in whatever medium that they want. Because I feel like some people feel like that's reserved for a certain type of person should have.
- [16:40]
Cole Kushna
Or even a certain music. Certain genre of music.
- [16:43]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, exactly. Where it's like, oh, you should have went to school for, like, music theory. And you should know, like, read all these books and things like that. But, you know, Beyonce, on paper, she's not that person, but she was still able to tell this really powerful story with Lemonade with the help of other people.
- [17:04]
Cole Kushna
Sure.
- [17:05]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah. And I think that it kind of just opened up. It took the blinders off of me and said, okay, yes, lots of things can contribute to society, even art, that you might not necessarily think is contributing to how we think about the world and how we think about the history of different cultures in the world. And so that's what it is for me. I can't remember the second part of the question.
- [17:33]
Cole Kushna
I'll just call it kind of your. How does it call you personally to become a better human if it does?
- [17:41]
Titi Show Dia
I think, like I said, it just made me feel like I can also use my voice to do these things, too.
- [17:47]
Cole Kushna
Sure.
- [17:47]
Titi Show Dia
Because as someone who has a background in Science. I've often felt like that's not my place to speak about social things because I'm in a lab working with chemicals and not really doing the stereotypical work that people would associate with being in, like, a social justice space or being able to speak on these things. But my experience matters. You know what I'm saying? Like, my lived experience matters, and I can tell my story, and I can say how being black in America has affected me. I can say how it has affected my family. I can say these things, and they can all contribute to the overall narrative of the black experience. Because I'm black.
- [18:30]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [18:30]
Titi Show Dia
So, yeah, I think for me, that's what it is.
- [18:33]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. It's interesting because my world is all art and how all, like, that's all I think about, literally, is, like, how art affects society, but then it's kind of like the opposite, or not the opposite, but kind of the flip side to that coin. Because, like, your work specifically on, like, dope labs shows how science impacts the world. But even specifically on things like race, like, your last episode a couple weeks ago was kind of the. The racial bias of genetics and the origins of that and how that affected things. Even today, the scientific community's thinking around those issues today. So, yeah, it all kind of. It all contributes, and everyone has their lane and everyone can express their truth or whatever. But, yeah. So, Maggie, what about you?
- [19:24]
Maggie Lacy
I've been thinking a lot as someone who listens to music and interacts with art. I don't make a lot of art myself, but on the listening side, I've been thinking a lot about how it's just a powerful tool for empathy and understanding and for the part of how it makes me or calls me to become a better human. I. Truthfully, before Lemonade, I realized that I hadn't been intentionally seeking out art that doesn't necessarily reflect my own experience, but I've been thinking a lot about. It's kind of a responsibility I'm starting to recognize for myself to balance that consumption and start to look for art that centers experiences that are just different from my own. So that I don't like that my worldview isn't just shaped by a certain kind of experience. I think it's really important to see work that. I mean, in the case of Lemonade, there's almost no white people in the whole thing. And that was really important for me because it's super easy as a white person to go through and only interact with art that is by white people, for white people, and shows that experience. So I've been thinking about my own responsibility is intentionally seeking out a wide variety of experiences in my consumption of art.
- [21:00]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think. Yeah. I mean, and that that creates a demand and a need and, and a market for those things brought, you know, more interest, will broaden those and create more of an audience within, which then incentivizes more people to do it. So I think that's kind of important for all of us to kind of think about, especially right now. So let's move on to the next question. We had two that were related, so I'm going to read them both at the same time and we'll kind of talk about them generally. The first one comes from At Izzy Chacon, I think. Sorry, if I'm going to get these, I'm going to get all these names wrong, probably, they ask. Lemonade was released in 2016 and we see how much relevance and new stuff are still being recognized today. When most albums die within a year or two. How do you think Lemonade is going to age talking 10 to 50 years from now? And Hall's balls 6 9pm he or she asks, many of the episodes that were released following the death of George Floyd seem eerily relevant to listen to in the current state of protesting for ending of police brutality in support of the Black Lives Matter movement. Did you alter any of the scripts for later episodes to address these things? So I guess I'm thinking about these two questions being similar in that they're talking about relevancy, about, you know, a lot has been discussed recently about obviously Black Lives Matter movement and the things that we're facing currently and how Lemonade is touching on these things. But it was written in 2016, so I don't know. Titi, you want to share your thoughts about those?
- [22:45]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, I think that Lemonade was relevant before 2016. After 2016 and probably for all eternity. As long as white supremacy exists, Lemonade will be relevant. The timing of the release of this season of Dissect with kind of like this global outrage over the murders of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and a bunch of other black people by racist police and racist people. I think it was unfortunate, the timing, but I'm glad that we were able to have to have this season come out when it did because I felt like it kind of was helping to underscore everything and contribute to the global conversation of Black Lives matter. Lemonade in 50 years will probably still be relevant.
- [23:43]
Cole Kushna
Hopefully not. But yeah, history is not on our side on that.
- [23:48]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how long we have to wait as a culture for black people before the tides turn and we actually see systemic justice. But until that happens, Lemonade will always be relevant. It might not be in the forefront of your mind, whoever wrote that. It might not be in the forefront of someone that of the mind of a person that is not a person of color or a black person, but Lemonade is always relevant, even when folks aren't being killed and it makes national news.
- [24:24]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I mean my understanding, my thinking about this was one to address the question, the specific question, did we alter any scripts? No, we didn't. And it was eerie how they aligned, you know, specifically forward episode drops, you know, a week after George Floyd and the freedom episode comes out the week of June 5th. Juneteenth. So there we didn't alter any of the scripts, but it was weird how it laid out. But nothing. The sad part about it is that it's relevant because nothing has changed. You know, we didn't need the death of George Floyd. We didn't need these specific deaths that happened recently to those didn't change anything. It was just a reinforcement of what's been happening. So you know, obviously we want to be respectful about those, those tragedies. But, you know, nothing has changed and that's the point and that's why it's relevant. And so to me it was like, yeah, it was, was eerie how specific it was and the timing really lined up. But again, it's. It's like what you said, tt it's, it's relevant now. It's going to be relevant in 10 years. Hopefully not relevant in 50 years, but yeah, I don't know. Do you have any, any other thoughts on that, Maggie?
- [25:50]
Maggie Lacy
Yeah, basically just. I agree with everything you guys are saying. It'll be interesting to see in 50 years how different artists after her approach these things that I'm guessing a lot of people will call her a big influence. I don't think that that will ever change. I think she's permanently, forever gonna be an influence on everyone who comes after.
- [26:18]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think, yeah, we in, you know, Black is king's about to come out and you can tell she's not slowing down. Her vision is grand and I think she's gonna get even more. I mean, Lemonade was really, I guess self titled, had kind of a visual album component, but it wasn't as crafted, I would say, than as this one. And you know, Lemonade was essentially her first stab at it. So it's like she's, she's trying the same. She's doing the same thing again with Black is King, it seems like, but now has some experience, more experience under her belt and I think that's just going to continue. And I'm really excited to see where she's going to take music and art because she's, I mean, already doing an incredible job and I assume it's just going to get better. Okay, so let's move on. This come. This question comes from Quinn. She is one of our biggest fans. Shout out to Quinn. She's very supportive of the podcast. She asked a two part question. One, do you think this album could have stood alone, sonically, as in exclusively? The audio could have been its own season if it wasn't accompanied by the visual. And then a related question. What did you gather more dissection from the visuals or the music poetry? So I'll take a stab at this one first. Yeah, I don't know. It's. I think definitely Lemonade could have had its own season just by the music, but it wouldn't be as good because Lemonade isn't as good as. As without the visuals. And I think I was trying to think if all these kind of layers would be possible if we just heard the music and never saw the visuals. Because I think the, the music itself is. It's. It's the infidelity story of. Of It's. It's that layer. It's. It focuses on a redemption of love and a redemption of marriage and. I don't know. And maybe Titi, you can share your thoughts on this. I'm not sure if all those other elements are clear or would be clear enough to unpack in the way that we were able to, I guess, with our analysis. I don't. I just do. Do you hear that in the music, in the, in the narrative of the. The music alone was. Is that something that you would be able to kind of. You think you'd be able to put together?
- [28:33]
Titi Show Dia
No, I'm just not. Maybe I'm not smart enough. Maybe I'm not deep enough. But I like, I needed those visuals to get those deeper meanings and those layers because like you said, I think if you just listen to the album on its own, you can just draw the line through their relationship and the ups and downs and things like that. But everything else, which was a large part in what the big message that she wanted to send, I think we wouldn't have got that. It would have been a really big reach. Like a triple jump.
- [29:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. To me it would be one of Those things where someone like common in thesis papers or academic papers, where you have a specific kind of like yours, Maggie, like you have a specific view and then you're going to. You're going to analyze, in this case Lemonade through that view and show all these ways how it parallels in your instance, like the crossroads theology. But it's like, of course, Beyonce probably wasn't thinking about crossroads theology when she was creating the work, but there is a case to be made. So I can see someone coming in and saying, okay, this is about love, specifically black love. And then let me make the case of how this specific story ties into this historic story of the struggles of the black experience and black love. You know what I mean? But that wasn't so much in the music, but you could easily make a case for it.
- [29:59]
Titi Show Dia
So you'd have to be as smart as Maggie, which most of us are not.
- [30:05]
Cole Kushna
And in terms of the second part, you know, the visuals, do we get more dissection from the visuals? Music, poetry? I think it was equal to me. It was equal. It was. The best part about Lemonade is how all these things interact with each other and the way certain lines of lyrics will change if you're just hearing it in the song and then hearing it with that specific visual that you see when that line is performed. And that was the best. That was, to me, the funnest part about this season was really seeing how the interpretations changed with the visuals and the poetry and how that all colored and interacted was like, it's just really beautiful. I don't know. Was that your experience too, Maggie?
- [30:48]
Maggie Lacy
Yes, I think so. And I think just being a Beyonce fan, I think it was on her self titled album she had kind of like a companion video where she was talking about how she sees music when she makes it. So I think for her, even in the creation, I don't want to speak for her, but it would seem like the. The visual was always part of that process. And I think we're so used to artists just releasing an album, like just the audio, that I think she's almost like pioneering kind of her own medium. And so it'd be really hard to try to do just the music when knowing that with her intention to go into visuals the whole time. Yeah, I don't know if I had more dissection visuals, music or poetry. I think I was thinking about it like mathematically, like there's probably 70% music, 30% spoken word, but there's always 100%, you know, visuals on the screen.
- [31:51]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:52]
Maggie Lacy
But, I mean, I don't know. They all. They're all so interconnected that it's hard to say.
- [31:58]
Titi Show Dia
Love that.
- [31:59]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point, too, is that she is really. And I think Black Is King is gonna really stamp this because it sounds like it's structured in the same way, where there's music, they're spoken, and there's visual, and that is. It is kind of her own medium. And I think she's. Yeah, she is really pioneering this new thing. You know, we've seen visual accompaniment with full albums before, but not. I mean, none that I know of that are on this level, that really interact in this way. You know, you could. There's. There. There's been other kind of world building around albums. Like, specifically, I think about Childish Gambinos, because the Internet, when. When he was very intentional about. There's a screenplay, there's an album, there's a website, there's performance art, there's music. All these things interact and. And contribute to the narrative. So I think it's. It's. I think that actually, you know what? Maybe that it's. It's all kind of like Beyonce. Generally speaking. What sets her apart is that she's doing it on such a large platform and it has such an accessibility to it that you don't really. And you don't have to seek it out so much because it's given to you. It's like, here's a visual album. She was very specific about Lemonade being titled a visual album, meaning that the visuals are just as important as the music. And actually, I'm going to skip. There's a question about this, and I think we should probably address it here since we're kind of on the top the topic. But at Calm Land, I think maybe. Camland asked, what do you think of Beyonce's marketing strategy with Lemonade exclusive visual album, Putting it on Spotify two years later. I think it was three years later. Do you think it isolated any of her fans or brought more people to pay serious attention to her work or both? And I bring that up now in this conversation because I do actually think it limited Lemonade in. In some respects, the visual album was on hbo and then it wasn't. And then it was on Apple and. And then now it's only on Tidal. And I do. And it's not on YouTube. It's not really readily accessible to most people. And I do wonder if that release strategy. I understand. I love that she's experimenting and I. And being creative with the release. And obviously Tidal is a big part of Jay Z's business pursuits. But I do wonder if the accessibility of the. The visual album limited people's understanding of what Lemonade is and was. I don't know. Do you guys have any thoughts on that?
- [34:42]
Maggie Lacy
I just. I kind of agree. I feel like a lot of people I know just didn't have access or they only had access to the music. And like we've been talking about, the visuals are just so important to understand the whole project. I did everything in my power to see it and hear it when it came out, but not. Not everybody. Just, you know, a casual fan probably, that doesn't have Tidal. It definitely created a bit of a barrier, I would think.
- [35:12]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think another thing that works to its disadvantage is that people just aren't used to consuming a visual album. You know, like you're saying it is a pioneering medium, and I just don't think people are used to it yet. And maybe I hope it's something that becomes more common and that we kind of view more like a traditional film, or it'd actually be interesting if it could become. You know, we consume albums multiple times, but we usually only watch a film once, maybe twice, some other months, years later. But I mean, for me, personally, when I love a film, I watch it obsessively, and maybe that's just my specific nature, but I. I do wonder if there's a world where we could learn to com. To consume a visual album and. And watch it multiple times and kind of have a. This mass understanding and. And interest in. In something like that. I don't know. I think that'd be cool, personally.
- [36:14]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, I mean, I feel like. And Cole, I guess this is more a question for you, because I feel like people's consumption of music has changed over the decades where. And how. How albums were made is so different. Like, I feel like now a lot of artists are more focused on the single and having a really good song out that makes the charts. Like, they're not trying to tell a story within an album. They're trying to create a hit.
- [36:38]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [36:39]
Titi Show Dia
That can make the charts. And so the art of making an album that tells a story is kind of a dying art or whatever, where there are still people that do it. I mean, Beyonce is doing that, but the majority of people that are in the music industry or trying to break into the music industry just want to hit, so they're not focused on telling a story. So it wouldn't be possible for them to be a part of this new medium that Maggie so eloquently put that is starting to emerge from like juggernauts, like a Beyonce. I don't, I don't know. Do you think that this will push people back towards the, the art of telling a story through their music?
- [37:23]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we're so early on in the, in the streaming era that what we did, what artists, a lot of artists did at first was like, okay, how is this going to work financially? What's the best? What's the. Well, and it probably is inspired by the labels, to be honest, because they're thinking bottom line mostly all the time. They're not the artist, obviously, so their, their job is to profit on it. So I think, I think what we're seeing now is the gaming of streaming or at least becoming the most successful financially on streaming, which means big singles, lots of streams, songs that are great with playlists that you can just drag and drop into your own personal playlist, and then albums that are 25 songs long. Because to get the amount of streams equivalent to an album sale is much higher than buying a single album. So you have drake releasing a 25 song album. You have Chris Brown releasing that crazy 40 song or whatever it was album. Even Chance the rapper's newest project was just so long. And a lot of that is to game the streaming system to get you number ones. And so I think we're just in that early stage. But to answer your question, I think people like Beyonce, I think people like Kendrick Lamar are going to figure out another version of this new digital medium world that we have now. And I think you're going to see artists start to try to figure out, yeah, what can we do with all these streaming platforms? What can we do creatively to, to integrate? You know, Spotify is probably, is likely going to have videos soon. You know, how do I manipulate that with the music? And they're going to be taking risk. I mean, Lemonade was a huge risk and we talked about how it hurt the release strategy, limited the scope, but I think that's a necessary injury or something where you're going to have to test some things out. You're gonna have to be the first one, right? There has to be a first. And it's probably gonna be the most successful, but it's gonna start to pave the way for, for different expressions, different outlets. And I think that's what I'm excited because I think artists will always figure it out, you know, across time. Doesn't matter. The era doesn't matter. The. The materials that they're ha. The tools that they have. Artists will find a way to create art. And I think that's what we're going to see is people really creatively thinking about those things. And that's, you know, I think that's what's exciting. And obviously, like we said, Beyonce's not backing down. She's pushing it forward with Black is King. And. Yeah. And I think that's what's so great and inspiring about Beyonce, is that she could have easily be playing the streaming game right now. She could be putting out these massive singles and. And just winning.
- [40:12]
Titi Show Dia
We in quarantine.
- [40:13]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [40:13]
Titi Show Dia
It's the perfect time.
- [40:15]
Cole Kushna
But instead, you saw that. That really personal Instagram post that she had a couple weeks ago where she's literally been pouring herself into this film for the last year, not even knowing if it's gonna be something that people are gonna watch more than once or even at all.
- [40:28]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah. Cause even her mom posted on her Instagram, Tina Lawson, she said that Lemonade was, like, her least profitable album.
- [40:38]
Cole Kushna
Exactly. Yep.
- [40:38]
Titi Show Dia
But Beyonce has a point she's trying to make, I think, so that's more important for her as an artist, that she's like, no, I'm not going to compromise my art for money. And I think that's the place where she's at right now, and she has the flexibility to do that.
- [40:54]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think that actually, that's going to tie a little bit into this. Next question. Philthemusic asked, can we talk about the progression of blackness in Beyonce's career? Critics say she's conveniently became black as it slowly became politically correct to do so. But I'd argue Beyonce has always been unapologetically black as a celebrity. So I think, in my mind, this kind of relates to what we're talking about, this progression of her career. And, yeah, I mean, I think we're all aware of the critics of what she's doing now. And I just wonder, Titi, if you had any thoughts on that.
- [41:31]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, and I'm going to try not to get on my soapbox, because I know that we don't have that much time. Beyonce has been black her whole life. The idea that you can switch it off and switch it back on and not be black for part of your career and then be black for another part of your career and say, oh, I'm not black anymore in this setting is kind of ridiculous to me, because if that were true, I feel like we would all flip that switch off. And we were pulled over by the police. Because that would be hella handy, hella convenient and save a lot of lives. It has never been politically correct in the United States of America to show your blackness, even present day. So the fact, the idea that now it's more acceptable for her to be black is ridiculous. Because, I mean, we even saw the backlash that she had when she did information at the Super Bowl. Yeah, yeah. So saying that it's more politically correct to show your blackness now doesn't make sense because there are still black people that are being brutalized, marginalized, and discriminated against present day. And black people are not a monolith. I know that everyone's probably heard someone say that a million times at this point. There is not a specific way to show your pride in your heritage. And Beyonce, by simply breathing and blinking and moving around in this world, she is contributing to the historical narrative of the black experience. All of us are. Every single black person. Everything we say, everything we do, every move we make contributes. We are all contributing to the black experience. And no one black experience is more black than another person's. And we have to stop pushing the idea that black Americans, so who have a lineage of their ancestors being enslaved, so black Americans whose identity was stolen from them, that when they find a part of it, that they cannot now celebrate it because it's too late. You've lived 25, 30 years of your life and you didn't know any part of that. But now that you know that you're part Nigerian, now you want to wear a gale, Wear that. In my opinion, wear that gala and be proud. Because you weren't given the opportunity to live your life knowing the intricacies of your history, your culture and your ancestors. So any little shred of culture, of your culture, it is yours that you can get. You hold onto it really, really tight. And being dismissive of a black person's experience and saying that, oh, you're not black enough or you're. Or this is more black, this is too black for you because part of your lineage is being Creole and Creole is part white and you're very light skinned. That is dismissive of their history, their ancestors and their culture. And that is not fair. Black people have been robbed enough in this experience in America. Do not take away from her. We have to be able to compartmentalize our hate people. Like, if you don't like somebody, say you don't like them. You know, if you don't want to like Beyonce, that's crazy. But be that. Don't try and Rob her of the pieces of her. She is black. She's been black her whole life and she will not stop being black. And the fact that she is using. She has now gotten to a stage in her career where she feels comfortable using her art to tell a story and to push a message. We should all be proud of that. We should all be trying to do that. We should all that should be all of our aims in this life. And I think what she's doing is amazing and beautiful and you could tell she is doing the work with everything that she's putting out. Lemonade. Black is king. Everything that's coming out. Black Parade. She is doing the work. She's not just like sitting back passively and like, oh, you know, yeah, black folks. Yeah, yeah, I'm black, I'm black. No, she, she's going to Africa. She's doing the research, she's asking the questions. She's asking all the right questions and she's. And it's filling her with pride and that you can't ask for more than that.
- [46:03]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I mean I, I think that was beautifully put and thank you for that.
- [46:08]
Titi Show Dia
Soapbox away.
- [46:11]
Cole Kushna
So let's get into the next couple questions because it does kind of relate to this and I forgot to, I don't have the person's name here. I'm sorry, but they asked. I'm Mexican American. And yet this visual album spoke to me on a level that at times I wasn't sure fair was fair considering my ethnicity. How do you all feel about this album reaches beyond gender identity, ethnicity and socio historical experience. And this kind of ties into a question that Daniel Pal asked, which is the album is without a doubt a masterpiece that celebrates black history, black lives, etc. It's created for the black community. However, many non black people, including myself, find themselves inspired and relate to the message of the album both on the personal and societal level. Do you think that's what Beyonce meant for it to be? Do you think that it's a misinterpretation of the album meaning a non black person relating to a black experience and a pro black message? I, I, I'll share my personal thoughts. And Maggie, I'm, I'm Maggie and TT I'm, I'm curious what you think. I think this is and this is I think of also season one of Dissect, which is to pimp a Butterfly, which is also very similar to Lemonade in a lot of, in a lot of respects. I think it is a great opportunity through art and empathetic listening to Learn about an experience that is not yours. And I think we're all human. That is the base. That is what connects us all, is that we are all human. And I think even the idea of what we're dealing with right now in terms of racial equality is we're really just trying to get back to this very simple idea that we are all human. And because of that, we all deserve to be treated equally and that we don't have to think about racial divides or racial inequalities. We're just trying to get back to this very simple baseline. And that's the two layers that I think about when I'm dissecting or even listening to this kind of artwork. Is that obviously, is it not not a story that is. That is my own experience? It's. It's far from that. But I am learning, Genu. I feel like I am genuinely learning and understanding what that experience is like. Obviously, I will never know the extent of it fully, but to me, it. And. And this is personal because I feel art and music is my greatest connection to humanity. And so that's where I gravitate towards, is learning through music. And I've done that my entire life. It could be something else. You know, it doesn't have to be music. But that's kind of my thoughts on it, is that through a very specific experience, we learn more about the breadth of human experience. It's unfortunate and a tragedy that some people's experiences are affected by simply because of what they look like. But at the same time, sharing those and taking the time to learn about other people's experiences that aren't yours, I feel like personally connects me to them more. And it just re. Emphasizes the fact that we are all human. Doesn't matter what we look like, doesn't matter where we came from. We all need to be treated equally. It's so frustrating because it's such a simple concept that we have made so complicated through our history. And it. Obviously, it's taking so much work and effort and tragedy to untangle this as we're experiencing right now, and we'll probably continue to experience for a long time, but that's it. At its core, we're all connected. So that's kind of my. My take and. And let. To. Just to bring it back to the question. Lemonade, to me, is just a beautiful, powerful, very successful expression of that. And, you know, I've said it before. Say it again. These albums changed my life. Lemonade and To Pimp a Butterfly, I would say the most changed How I view the world, how I feel, and I wouldn't trade the experience for the world. So. Yeah, I don't know. Maggie, what was your experience like?
- [50:28]
Maggie Lacy
I agree with everything you said. I think that it has been super powerful in that it creates that opportunity for empathy and listening. And although it's not an experience I'll ever fully understand because I don't live it, I think that she. If you feel, you know, she creates a lot of emotion in the project, and if you relate to something she's saying, that's a great access point for understanding more about her experience. I think that she has been pretty open. Well, I don't remember if. I think it was. In the Homecoming documentary, she talks about how she could go to Coachella and wear the flower crown, and that'd be kind of an easy thing to do. But she very intentionally talks about her experiences as a black woman and tries to show the beauty of her culture. I think that. I think all people can recognize the beauty that she's putting out and honor that and use it as a jumping off point for more listening and understanding of people.
- [51:49]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. The other thing I would just add, too, is, you know, the album is really centered and rooted in love. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about it, is that it comes to this conclusion about love and about love connecting us, and we all feel love, you know, and it's the human emotions that we all feel that. That connect us. And I think landing there with Lemonade even brings it to this more universal place that we're talking about. Yeah. I don't know. Titi, do you have anything. Anything you'd like to add to this?
- [52:24]
Titi Show Dia
No, not really. I think you guys kind of nailed it. Like, her target audience is clear. But the lessons in Lemonade are definitely transferable. Like, there are a lot of different people from different walks of life that can relate to a lot of things in Lemonade. And I think another thing is that if parts of Lemonade, or if you're listening to Dissect and something strikes you in your heart, and you're like, wow, I didn't know that this was the experience of black people, that Lemonade was not made for your voyeurism. I think it's also a call to action for everyone to do something about it.
- [53:02]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think even to that point, like, all the threads that she. She. Lee. She puts in there, the historical threads, it's like, that's. Those are there for you to explore on your own. Right. Like, if. If something Grabs your. Your attention and you're curious about it. You know, that's intentional. And like we saw a million times with this season, one little image will set you on this rabbit hole of. And then all of a sudden you're. You're reading about the history and you're going back to Africa and you're, you know, you're reading about, you know, how things traveled here. And, you know, it's just. Those little threads are just to your point, about, like, taking action. I think even researching and learning is. Is a form of action, and it only educates you more about things you can do today, how we got here, and how we can change things. So.
- [53:51]
Titi Show Dia
Absolutely.
- [53:54]
Cole Kushna
Okay, so let's move on a little bit lighter here. Well, maybe not, actually, because it all kind of relates. Sadly. It all kind of relates. Indira D. Asks, why did this. Why didn't this album win the Grammy? And I'm going to add to this question. Why didn't it win the Emmy? Actually, I. So I didn't know this until today when I was researching this. It was nominated for three or four Emmys. It didn't win any. The one that, that it made me the most mad that the biggest. I think the biggest category was. It was best variety Entertainment. Something like there was not a clear category, I guess, to put this in. So it got grouped together in a weird category, but essentially it lost to. Is it James Corden? That. Is that his name? The comedian. The. The carpool. The. The carpool karaoke. It lost to that. So take that in and take that in. And then. And then Grammy, of course, she lost best album to Adele. What do you guys think?
- [55:02]
Titi Show Dia
This is hard because I don't know. I don't. My knee jerk reaction is this is racist. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just, like, it just doesn't. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what goes into. There is the review for Grammys or Emmys, but it just doesn't make sense. It feels like she exposed something that people didn't really want to have to talk about or have to acknowledge. And if they did acknowledge it, then it would create a greater conversation which they don't want attached to their brand as the Grammys or the Emmys. And I'm just like, that's a really punk move. Like you're a coward if. If you're more worried about that. Yeah, I think it's frustrating because I mean, more so now since I worked on this season with you guys and knowing the amount of work that went into this and how good it is, it deserves all the trophies.
- [55:59]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I'm not exactly sure how Grammys judge. I mean, they get it wrong more times than they get it right. So it's not a surprise to me. I would say that it probably has something to do if it's not direct conscious racism. It's. It's kind of the implicit bias thing where I would guess I would bet my life savings that the majority of Grammy board whoever votes for it is probably majority white. And so they are going to gravitate to an Adele because it's safe and it's. And it's. And it s. Sold a lot of records and has all the qu. The. The hallmark qualities of what the Grammy looks for. There's a lot of arguments to be made that they pick and choose when that applies though, because you think of an artist like Beck who won best album over Beyonce for the self titled. I believe you know, that was an obscure. Didn't sell a lot of records. It was like mostly acoustic. It was a great record. But it's like, oh, they're awarding the. The artsy guy. But who you. It's like Beyonce had the case there that she sold a bunch of that. That self titled was such a hit commercially, all the ways that the Grammys would look for. Right. But then this time they chose to. To award the. The. The artsy guy that didn't sell a lot of records. And so it's just. It's just they're moving the goalposts every time. Exactly. And I, I think they'll be more conscious about that in the future, I would hope, given everything that's going on now. But it's a miss. It's a. It's a huge miss. And actually I think the. The Emmys is more of a miss to me. I mean, I guess Grammys has the bigger stage there in the best album category, but James Corden, like, it's like a comedy show in a car. Like, it's like this album is like belongs. This visual album belongs in a museum, you know, like, this is special. And I just.
- [57:59]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah, that's a great point though. Maggie on a GoPro, like, no shade to GoPro. I have one, but give me a break.
- [58:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Don't get me wrong, it's fun and all that, but I mean, I don't know. Award winning, I don't know. Do you have anything to add to that, Maggie?
- [58:16]
Maggie Lacy
I think you guys got it. I think it's definitely. It's like, it's not Something that's just happened to Beyonce. It's consistently black artists put out critically acclaimed, like albums. I'm thinking about to Pimp a Butterfly. The same thing happened where Taylor Swift won over Kendrick Lamar. And it's like you can kind of see a pattern at that point. You can't.
- [58:39]
Cole Kushna
Or even, even with good kid Mad City for best rap album, he lost to Macklemore, which is, you know, without.
- [58:47]
Maggie Lacy
Knowing how Grammys works. All you have to do is see that and know that they need to fix something.
- [58:52]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Okay, so Ipers and Doghouses asks, does any part of you think this could be a ploy? The leaked elevator footage which led to lemonade, the 444 which led to the joint album and the concert. Maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me, but who in hell cheats on Beyonce? Lol. If this was a facade, it would be the greatest marketing ploy of all time. Yeah, I don't know. That's. I mean, that's a common narrative. There's the common narrative of them being an Illuminati. All this crazy stuff. We probably don't need to spend too much time on this. But Titi, what do you think?
- [59:34]
Titi Show Dia
I think that is ridiculous. I don't know a nicer way to say it, but I just, I think that is such a reach. Like leaked elevator footage, all this stuff. Like, I just don't, I don't see it. I don't, I don't buy it. I don't think so. I think that if she has something she wants to say, she can say it. It's not that she's, you know, this small time artist or like a mid range artist that's trying to get to the top. She's already at the top. She's at the pinnacle. She doesn't need any of this, any of the sensationalism. She doesn't need to. She wants to put out an album and she wants to sell a million in a day, she can do it. She's done it. She doesn't need all of the. She doesn't need any gimmicks like some people do. This is Beyonce we're talking about. She doesn't need to do that and she doesn't do it. What she's doing is turning her pain into art and in the best way that she knows how. Because at her core she is an artist and she wants to speak her experience and she wants to not make light of it, but take control of it. She doesn't want the story being told for her. She wants to tell it herself in the way that she knows how, in the best way that she knows how. I think that that's ridiculous. And anybody can get cheated on. It doesn't matter if you're Beyonce or Bibi down the street. It doesn't. And it doesn't even have to be cheating. It can be anything. And now I think that's another point that she's trying to make with Lemonade, is that she is one of us. She is not immune to any of the intricacies of a relationship just because she's married to the Giga man. Like, and because they've got billions in the bank, it doesn't matter. Like, they still struggle in their relationship. They still have to overcome hardships in their relationship. They still have to, you know, know, raise children together, which is also hard, and balance their careers and their relationship and everything like that. Like, she is one of us. And that's what she was trying to say that. I think that's one of the things that she's also trying to say with. With Lemonade and being so transparent with that work.
- [61:38]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And I think I would add to that only, you know, if you're giving someone the benefit of the doubt, it's like, yeah, this was all very strategic. The leaked elevator footage, I don't think, obviously, it had anything to do with. That's kind of been proven. But lemonade to 444, to everything is love is a strategy, but it's. I. I interpret it as an artful strategy. You know, she said specifically that she wanted to make this about black love and about how, you know, black people are almost conditioned not to be together. That was a direct quote that she stated about this project. And I think what's beautiful about what they did, and really unique in the history of art, is have this trilogy effect of three albums. You get the woman's side, you get the man's side, and you get the harmony at the end with Everything Is Love. And it's. It has this trajectory of a blueprint, you know, like, if she's. If she identified her personal situation in her marriage as a larger point, a larger issue that she sees specifically in the black community. And she has this voice. She has this megaphone. They're the two biggest artists in the world that had a very human conflict in their marriage that many people have. You know, I don't think it's exploitive to share that as an artist and then to give a blueprint of especially jay Z with 444 being as vulnerable as he was in that album, being who he is, who basically built his career on being the tough guy, you know, being invulnerable and having Big Pimpin as is one of his biggest songs, you know, to him, for him in his later years to come with this album and really lay it out there, I think is incredibly inspiring. And, yeah, I think it's just genius, actually, what they did. So that's. That's all I would add to that. I don't know. Maggie, you have any thoughts?
- [63:32]
Maggie Lacy
I just have a couple really quick. I think the first, going back to jay Z and 444. Like, he talks in the end about, like, if my children knew in that song. And I think that people forget that they're real people and that that elevator footage and everything after had an effect on their family. And so I don't think they would fabricate any of that. And the other thing is, like, why would Solange do that? Like, what is in it for Solange to fake an elevator fight? Like, that's silly.
- [64:08]
Titi Show Dia
Especially them being so private. Like, I just. I don't know. I don't buy it. I'm just like, they're private about everything. Like, we. We've seen those twins, like, three times, and I just don't. I don't know.
- [64:21]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, this was like Kanye and Kim. It's like, they're known for this kind of. These stunts. So it's like, maybe in that case. But exactly.
- [64:29]
Titi Show Dia
Like, they. They have a direct line to tmz. They. They just funnel the information to them. So that can come out like that. But we, like, no. Yeah, the Carters are not doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:40]
Cole Kushna
All right, we have time for a few more here. A couple of people asked this, so I did want to address it. Why? This one specifically comes from DJ T. Pain. He says why all male collaborators seems to go against the agenda of Lemonade. Was this her way of getting back at Jay? And then Adrien TZ asked, how do you think a Jay Z feature on Lemonade would have affected the overall listening experience? Did you guys think about. I don't think it was until someone pointed it out to me that there was only male. I wouldn't say collaborators because there's more. There's women collaborators, but male features, I guess. Male. Male vocal presence on the album and no women. I have some thoughts, but I was wondering if you guys thought about that at all or had some thoughts about why maybe there wasn't or was only male.
- [65:31]
Maggie Lacy
I don't. I don't think I really noticed it. I think I noticed in the. In the. Just researching how some of the songs came about that it felt like all the male voices featured happened pretty organically. Like, I think the Weeknd wrote a big part of 6 inch first and sleep. I think. Yeah. I think it was just really. Just part of the creative process, and that's where she landed. I also really do think the female collaborators in general, beyond just the features, were super important. There's a lot of female songwriters, I think, Diana Gordon, Ingrid Burley, I think is her name. So it definitely wasn't that. Like, women weren't involved.
- [66:14]
Titi Show Dia
Yeah. And I mean, not to be too meta, but I felt like with the visuals and her being very deliberate about showcasing mostly black women and showing them kind of like in their element and showing their faces and we do hear their voices and then having. Because what she's trying to say about the black relationships, like, you can't have a relationship without your partner. And I think she didn't want to say no men at all, or I'm only gonna have men on tracks for whatever petty reason. I think that she, like, Maggie was saying that it was an organic thing, but I think that there were a lot of women that were a part of this work. And to highlight the men. I feel like you're missing the point.
- [67:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, yeah. To see the film and then take away that there's only male voices on the. The music. Yeah. I don't know. I think. I think it's such a. When you see the film is so clear that, you know, I don't think that's an issue or something we need to even think about all too much. What do you guys think about the Jay Z feature? Because he is in the film. And I was wondering if they're. I mean, they did it meta. Kind of more meta in the trilogy where it's lemonade 444, everything is love. So there is a Jay Z feature, quote, unquote, in this trilogy. But, yeah, I was just wondering, like, what if he did have a feature? How would that. How do you guys think that would work? Would it be effective? Do you think it would have been weird or. I don't know. What do you guys think?
- [67:51]
Maggie Lacy
Well, one thing I think about is that he. He said in an interview that they had both been planning on making music about their experience, but that it, between the two of them, it made sense for her to go first and kind of speak her truth. And just in terms of the album, I don't know where on the album it would make sense just because the first half is her really speaking her truth. And then Sandcastle's like that song is not. I don't think Jay Z could be on Sandcastles. And then after that it just really opens up beyond their relationship to the communal. I don't know, I just don't really feel like there's a natural place for his voice on that.
- [68:36]
Cole Kushna
What if he just came in, was like, I'm sorry, babe, in between songs? Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, I think there is a world where it could work, where it could have happened. It's hard to say on the songs that we hear in Lemonade as it exists now. Yeah, there's not really a clear place. Maybe. Maybe on all night I can see him maybe trying to get in there. I could see he. Him kind of flipping that to make it sound a little more hip hop. But yeah, I don't know. I. I think his feature, I think the way he was used in the film, if we are viewing this as a visual album that you cannot separate the music from the visuals. He does have a feature. Right. And it's a very, very strategic and powerful way that he is used. Coming in precisely on the moment of forgiveness, coming precisely on the most vulnerable moment of the album which speaks to his place in this trilogy, which is revealing that emotion that was holding him back. That really was why he cheated or the least that's the kind of the way that they framed it was that he had all these. He had his guard up and he wasn't allowed to be vulnerable. And all these self esteem issues that are. That are hidden behind these walls and him just taking those walls out, that was kind of the point. Right. That's how they found healing was show me your scars. And yeah, so. So in my mind he does have a feature and it was really. And the fact that he doesn't say anything is almost like more powerful than anything he ever could have said. So. Okay, so let's. We're going to wrap it up here. I wanted to ask you guys, actually, let's do. Let's do two more because I do want to see. We didn't talk about the album art specifically and someone asked about what the significance of the album cover is. I have a couple thoughts. Maggie, did you think. Have you thought about this at all?
- [70:22]
Maggie Lacy
I've honestly never really known and I was actually really looking forward to hearing what you guys thought about it.
- [70:28]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. TT do you have anything you wanted to start with at all or. It's A tricky one for sure.
- [70:37]
Titi Show Dia
It's tricky. So it's like not showing her face. You see the braids and then the outstretched arms. I think that that is very artistic in that we know who. We know who that is, and you don't need to see her face. And also I think it's like, even though it's a still, you can feel the motion in it where it's like a slow revealing of like Beyonce. And I think that is something that was huge with Lemonade, where it was like she's giving us a peek into her. Into her life that we didn't necessarily have before. The fur coat reminds me of the head high weeds that she was walking through at Fort Macomb.
- [71:24]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [71:26]
Titi Show Dia
She's kind of like being hidden in those. In. In the head high weeds.
- [71:30]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [71:31]
Titi Show Dia
I don't know. There's just so many things I haven't. I'm not really sure there's a lot of ideas.
- [71:37]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I think it's not. I think it's abstract for a reason. My perception of it. And this is something I. We didn't put in the first episode, which I only discovered later, and I kind of wish we put it in. The very first image that we see in Lemonade is this image, the COVID image. Right. And it's slow motion. And in the background you hear these weird noises, like very slow, deep noises. If you put that. If you. If you speed that up, it's actually a lion's roar that's in slow motion, essentially. And she's in slow motion, so. And then don't. And this. So. And it's also the scene of don't hurt yourself, which is the. The most cathartic, angry mo. It comes in the chapter Anger. And she says, what's the line about lions?
- [72:29]
Maggie Lacy
She says, beautiful, man.
- [72:31]
Cole Kushna
Beautiful. Yeah.
- [72:32]
Titi Show Dia
And I know you're lying.
- [72:34]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, Beautiful.
- [72:35]
Maggie Lacy
Maine.
- [72:36]
Cole Kushna
I'm the lion. Okay. Yeah, it's a beautiful mane. I'm the lion. There's the lion's slow motion sound. Cryptic, but it's there, that fur coat, to me. So now thinking in that respect, the fur coat, maybe lion's mane, we went into the dread or her. Her braids being. You know, there's a prominent shot of her braids when she says lion's mane. And so. And then her face is hidden. So I definitely agree with what you're saying, Titi, where it's like. Yeah. The story of Lemonade is this revealing, cathartic journey of her coming out of some shell. The. The kind of. The oppression of society. The oppression of her marriage and her roles in these things, and her really allowing herself to feel all these emotions and coming out the other side more evolved and more expressive of who she actually is. So part of this is like, yeah, that's a little bit hidden right now. It's the public gaze of not really knowing who she is. It's the mystery of their marriage, but also that there is this ferocity. Ferocity, ferocity. Whatever one it is.
- [73:47]
Titi Show Dia
Maggie. Yeah, Maggie.
- [73:48]
Cole Kushna
Maggie. Where you at, Maggie? But yeah, there's this ferociousness. How about that in there? That we haven't quite seen to this capacity yet. And so it's just. I think. I think it's just that it's like. It's the. It's the caged lion and lemonade is the process by which that we see her become uncaged, unhinged, but also ultimately finding who she is and being comfortable with that and all the facets of that and allowing herself to feel and express those emotions, which she kind of. It's set up in the film through the hoods that she wears through the head high weeds of Fort Macomb, where she starts at this very oppressed, hidden, not expressing herself stage and then getting to see the transformation. So that was kind of like. It's like the cage line about to erupt is kind of what I thought about that. So. Okay, so last question. What is your favorite chapter and. Or song and why? Maggie, you want to go first?
- [74:48]
Maggie Lacy
Hmm. It's really hard to pick, but I think my favorite is All Night and Redemption. I don't really have a real reason other than it just makes me cry. Like every time. I think the part where, like the little girls are all running across the field toward the gates of the Maidwood mansion, like, that gets me because I always think about when she said that her goal was to have her was for her children have less complicated lives. And I just feel like that's such a great visual representation of that. And then the song itself is just such a jam. I love it.
- [75:31]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. What about you, Titi?
- [75:34]
Titi Show Dia
So I was torn between two. So I think going into working on this Freedom was absolutely my favorite, and it's still my favorite dissection that we did. I felt like there was just so many layers, and I really loved the Kendrick section of that, and I thought it was just really, really, really good. But I think Ford really has a really strong reaction from me now post, working on Dissect. I can't hear the first word of that song without, like, getting emotional and so that one. And even though it makes me very emotional when. When I go to listen to Lemonade, that's usually the first one that I listen to because I just feel like it's just so powerful. It's short, it's the shortest song, but it's just so incredibly powerful in its meaning. And the visuals that accompanied was a. It's tough to watch, but it's still really, really beautiful, which I. I think is the kind of like the overarching theme for all of Lemonade, where it's just like. It's hard and it's painful, but it's still so beautiful. And that's how I feel about Ford.
- [76:57]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. It is hard to take these out of context because the sequence of Forgiveness, Sandcastles, Forward, Resurrection, and then Hope and Freedom is such a powerful trio. And it's just like. That is the crux of everything, especially with Forward. It's like. That's like the X of the album, where everything kind of lines and crosses and changes. But, yeah, it's just like, man, it's such a. It's. I mean, in all my time, I would say, of doing dissect, that's probably the strongest sequence of. Of, I guess, songs. But also the visuals that accompanied it, it's just. Man, what a. What a timeless yet very specific message. Universal, yet very specific. You know, it's just. It hits all those moments. It's. It taps into this kind of formula that, you know, I think right now. And this is something larger about Lemonade is. It is like this. It's a journey. It's. It's the anger. It's. Well, it's the denial. It's the anger. It's the apathy, the emptiness. It's like this whole emotional journey. I think if we're trying to relate it, maybe with what we're going through right now in this country. It's like we are definitely at chapter two or chapter three, right? Like, we're at the. A lot of anger in the air, a lot of division. But I feel like part of us has to remember that there's gonna. We need to. We need to go through more cycles. There will be more emotions in this. I mean, maybe we don't feel them in our lifetime, but as a human race, as a country, this larger trajectory is neat. Is going to need to. Like, we're going to need to incorporate more emotional. We can't just be angry, right? Like, there's a place for anger, there's a time for anger. And There's a purpose to anger, just like we saw in Lemonade. But at some point, if we're ever going to heal, we're going to need to find a way to forgive. We're going to need to find a way to have more empathy and listen to each other. And ultimately it comes back to what she ends on is love. And. And that's the place that we. If we're going to live in harmony, if we're going to coexist beautifully and harmoniously and. And I'm talking across time, it's like that is the formula. This gives us that formula. And I think, just kind of trying to relate it back to this question is that sequence of three songs, I feel like, is just something that we should probably think about as we're navigating these times. Yeah. And to answer the question specifically, freedom, man, it's hard not to choose freedom for me. Um, right. Especially as a, like, the musician side of me, like, what they did to build the production of that song, the samples that they used to create this, you know, this. The backdrop of, you know, the. Of the sample of the chain gang at the penitentiary. You have the. So you have the kind of the oppression. Oppression, but then you have the gospel, the choir and the preacher there is the kind of the hope. And it's like they're creating this, like, tapestry of. Of just by the sonic elements. And then on top of that, you get this really powerful message about freedom. You get the Kendrick verse, which is just like when you discover what he's doing, that's just, like, mind blowing. It's just. I think I said on. Even on Social, like, if you don't think this is one of the best pieces of music the 21st century, you're not listening hard enough. You're not paying attention because, man, like, they. They found something special with. With freedom. Anyways, I think that was it. I wanted to end just by thanking you guys. You know, this season was. You know, every season has an impact on me personally, but this one was really, really special, and it was because we were working together. You know, both of your insights were just so valuable. Ttu, we didn't talk about this really, but it's like you. You have podcast experience, but you didn't ever, like, host this style of podcast. And the way to just watch you kind of blossom and. And learn really quickly and. And just do such an incredible job was, like, really, really cool. Maggie. Pulling you out of the obscurity of finding you through your. Through your job and. And getting you on board was just really cool. Yeah. So I just really wanted to thank you guys. I learned so much from both of you, and I was just really lucky to find you guys and have you guys and all that.
- [81:32]
Titi Show Dia
Thank you, Cole, for the opportunity. I never could have thought that I would have this opportunity, but I feel very grateful that you were willing to take a chance on me, someone who has never done anything like this before, because I'm sure you have hundreds and hundreds of people you could have chosen to do this. And scientists is probably not at the top of your list. But I am forever changed because of this experience. Not just because lemonade is so transformational, but because of the work that I had to do for dissect. And working with you and working with Maggie and reading both of you all's writing has been. It's just been mind blowing the way that you have. Being able to read the scripts and work alongside you guys. I feel so much smarter now than I did before. And so I just want to say thank you to both of you for kind of knowingly and not knowingly pushing me to be a better writer, a better co host, and just a better person overall.
- [82:43]
Maggie Lacy
My goodness, I'm so emotional. Thank you so much just for like, giving me an opportunity to be part of this. Both of you just blow me away with your words on your writing and your thoughts. Like, I. I feel very blessed to be part of this. So thank you.
- [83:02]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, again, it was. It was a really great experience. I think we. I'm going to be pushing you guys for a reunion season one of these days. But for now, we have an episode next week that will be on 444 and everything is love. And then we are very likely going to do something on Black is King at some point after its release. So be on the lookout for that. Cool. All right, well, thank you guys for doing this. This was great. And thank you, everyone, for. For listening. We will talk to you guys.
- [83:39]
Titi Show Dia
Sam, Sa. Sam. Arrest the cops that murdered Breonna Taylor.