Episode 124 (Season 4): Epiphanies and Apologies: Processing Life After Autism and ADHD Discovery

Summary

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Divergent Conversations – Episode 124 Summary

Epiphanies and Apologies: Processing Life After Autism and ADHD Discovery
Release Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff (B) & Patrick Casale (A)

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Overview

This episode explores the emotional aftermath of discovering one’s own neurodivergence—specifically Autism and ADHD—as an adult. Dr. Neff and Patrick reflect on how self-discovery has reshaped their understanding of past relationships, social struggles, and personal experiences as AuDHD (Autistic and ADHD) individuals. They candidly discuss the “epiphany” moments, the urge to issue apologies, and the complex ongoing process of recontextualizing their lives through this new lens.

The hosts also unpack the practicalities, challenges, and emotional turbulence of sorting through personal histories, relationships, and self-concept following diagnosis or self-identification.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Series Structure: Real-time Neurodivergent Processing

• The episode is the second recorded in a new series about the arc of self-discovery in Autism and ADHD, focusing on the emotional aftermath.
• Both hosts display hallmark ND traits—out-of-sequence recording, feeling overwhelmed by organizational chaos, and humor about these quirks.
  [02:28] B: "We're doing a very ADHD in that we're bopping around... our brains are going to have a lot of fun with us."
• The process of unpacking post-discovery is nonlinear, messy, and full of associative leaps.

2. The “Aha!” Season: Epiphanies & Emotional Firestorms

• Both Megan and Patrick describe an intense initial phase after discovery, marked by constant connections and reframing of past memories.
  [04:06] B: "My brain just felt on fire... so many associations... every experience would be like, oh my gosh, it's this thing. It's not that."
• Megan expresses nostalgia and excitement for community members in this “electric” phase of insight—a mix of joy, clarity, and grief.
• Both regret not journaling or documenting these frequent revelations.

3. Replaying & Reinterpreting Social and Romantic Experiences

• Patrick shares examples of missed signals and awkward misunderstandings in dating—classic in autistic experience with social nuance.
  [06:06] A: "Dating apps are also really confusing... context can definitely be missed... being direct... or misreading the passivity of conversation..."

• Notable Anecdote: Patrick missed an obvious flirt, moving away when a date put her leg on his, thinking she needed space.

• Megan relates, especially regarding alexithymia and the assumption that actions (not words) signal feelings.

• Both laugh at the universal ND struggle—assuming intentions are obvious, missing nonverbal cues, and the tendency towards literal interpretation.
  [07:34] A: “I just thought that was implied because we went on a date. So I didn't know I had to communicate that explicitly.”

• Megan reflects on how autistic men can be misperceived as harassing due to lack of social cue perception, while also highlighting the double-edged vulnerability ND people face when applying “learned” social skills without real-time context.
  [10:08] B: “I've heard unfortunate stories... where more often... autistic men will be accused of harassment because they keep asking someone out... just kept asking... because they weren't getting a clear response.”

4. Recontextualizing & Apologizing for the Past

• Patrick describes feeling compelled to reach out to old friends and exes with newfound context—sometimes to their confusion or indifference.
• This is likened to both a recovery “amends” step and a neurodivergent attempt to offer honest explanations.
  [16:33] A: “Probably to some people's frustration... I was just wanting to just offer context which might have been too autistic of an experience for some people.”
• Both recognize the importance—but also the limits—of contextual apologies:
  • Sometimes these are needed for the individual’s clarity more than for the recipient’s closure.
  • Not everyone wants, needs, or welcomes these explanations.
• Quote [18:53] B: “Sometimes you need to just verbalize it or communicate it or write it down for yourself or share it with your therapist or like much healthier outlets and mechanisms sometimes.”

5. The Messiness & Emotional Labor of Reorganization

• Megan uses the metaphor of pulling open all the drawers in a dresser, making things messier before they’re organized. This illustrates the emotional and psychological mess that post-discovery sorting brings. [21:07] B: “When you are decluttering through looking through your past, it might feel like your dresser drawer is open and clothes are all over the floor.”
• Patrick describes preferring to simply throw things out, and the challenge of not being able to do that with his own emotional history.
  [23:08] A: “I declutter by eliminating or removing... But that doesn’t work for this process.”

6. Revisiting Painful “Drawers” from the Past

• Patrick’s major revisited “drawers”: ages 8-12 isolation and college/gambling struggles.
• Megan’s “drawers”: recurring themes of outsider status in groups, confusion over peripheral placement, and sensory struggles in intimate relationships and parenting. [29:28] B: “Why do I always end up feeling on the outside... not seeing how they’re getting closer... not seeing what's happening.”
• Both highlight how sensory issues, undiagnosed ND, and relationship or touch struggles impacted family and romantic bonds.

7. Relationship Dynamics: Special Interest, Attachment, and OCD

• Both hosts explore the trifecta: relationship OCD, avoidant attachment style, and undiagnosed autism/sensory issues making relationships especially hard.
• Megan discusses the pattern where people became “special interests,” and once novelty faded, avoidant and sensory discomforts returned, ending relationships quickly.
• Patrick relates to “deep dives” into attachment theory pre-discovery, searching for explanations.
  [35:19] B: “Is that why we connect or do we connect despite that?”

8. Shifts in Identity and the Ongoing Presence of the ND Lens

• Discovery brings both immediate overwhelm and eventual intentionality to relationships and life choices.
• Megan reflects on how viewing everything through the ND lens is a phase; over time, it remains a filter but becomes less overwhelmingly central.
  [45:33] B: “I will say it’s still a lens, but it’s not like the lens in the same way it was the first two or three years... now more multiple lens... holding the lens more gently.”
• Both recognize some people will find this focus excessive or an “excuse,” but see it as a natural developmental stage.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Chaos Post-Discovery:
  [04:06] B: “My brain just felt on fire in the sense of I was having so many associations... what just felt like electric aha moments.”
• On Missed Flirt Signals in Dating:
  [08:15] A: “I know I gave her like an awkward, like, pat on the shoulder and just like wandered off as quickly as I could to my car. And she was like, ‘What the hell, dude?’ I was like standing in front of you… and you just like, ran away. And I was like, I did not. I didn’t get it. So sorry.”
• On Apologizing with Context:
  [16:33] A: “Probably to some people's frustration, I'm sure girlfriends from freshman year of college were like off, dude, like, I don't want to hear from you... I just wanted to offer context, which might have been too autistic of an experience for some people.”
• On Decluttering the Past:
  [21:07] B: “When you are decluttering through looking through your past, it might feel like your dresser drawer is open and clothes are like all over the floor… messy stage where clothes are everywhere and we’re like, what the hell is going on?”
• On Family Gatherings & Sensory Struggles:
  [33:15] A: “...me not wanting to go to her very large, loving family gatherings that occur so often and not understanding how to communicate that... I would feel so ashamed and almost hurt... But I didn’t intend to, I just my face didn’t give you or my body didn’t react in a way that you anticipated.”
• On Identity Integration:
  [45:33] B: “I will say it’s still a lens, but it’s not like the lens in the same way it was the first two or three years... but it kind of needs to be front and center in those first seasons because you are reimagining so much of your past through this new lens.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:28] ADHD/Autistic processing of episode recording order and planning
• [04:06] Early months post-discovery—continuous “aha” moments
• [06:06–12:15] Revisiting dating and relationship miscommunications as NDs
• [14:13–18:53] Guilt, apologies, and “context dumping” to people from the past
• [21:07–24:58] The “dresser metaphor”—emotional mess of post-discovery organization
• [28:06–33:35] Revisiting childhood, group dynamics, and sensory family life
• [35:12–39:58] Trifecta of relationship OCD, attachment, and neurodivergence in relationships
• [41:15–45:33] The ever-present ND lens—balancing identity, explanation, and integration

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Final Thoughts

Patrick and Megan candidly explore the reorganization and reframing that comes after late-life discovery of Autism and ADHD. Their conversation is both vulnerable and validating, providing language and perspective for listeners new to, or deep in, the process of re-understanding their histories through a neurodivergent lens.

Upcoming: a discussion on revisiting history through the ADHD lens, as the series continues.

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Connect:

• Instagram - Divergent Conversations
• Podcast Website & Resources
• Autistic Burnout Resources

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Host closing banter, sponsorships, and resource promos were omitted for summary clarity.

Transcript

[A]

Megan, Anna, and I are so excited to have a repeat sponsor who's supporting the Divergent Conversations podcast. The Landmark College Success center, located in San Mateo, California, provides academic support, executive functioning coaching, and transition to college skills training for neurodivergent learners, both in person and online. A subsidiary of Landmark College, Landmark. Edu, the world's first and foremost college for neurodivergent students, the Success center is equipped to put you or your student on your path to success. Learn more at Landmark. Edu SuccessCenter. That's Landmark. Edu SuccessCenter. Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.

[B]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[A]

And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. All right, everyone, welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are starting a new series, which I'm really excited about, which we really haven't unpacked in length before, which is kind of like, okay, post autism and ADHD discovery, looking back, like, now, what and how did I not know? Does that ring a bell for you at all?

[B]

So I have an itchy thought. This happens to autistic people when you're in a conversation and it feels like there's a fact that got wrong. It's hard to, like, move beyond the fact until you correct it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So my itchy thought right now, which we can either cut this unless this is helpful, because autistic people experience. This is. We just. We are batch recording, and we just talked about how to structure this new series. And I believe this segment will actually be the second part of the series. And you started by saying, we're starting a new series. So my mind is stuck on that sentence.

[A]

I say we leave it because that's just what a glimpse into my brain, especially right now with how it's not working well. So this is not the beginning. This is kind of the middle.

[B]

This is. This is. We're putting. We're talking about doing a series, and we're doing a very ADHD and that we're bopping around, but we're talking about doing a series that kind of starts with the. The arc that often happens for people around self discovery diagnosis. So that'll be section one, which we haven't. We haven't recorded yet. And then now that's what Tripped you up. And last week we recorded the, like, autistic ADHD starter pack, which will be section three of this series. And now we're doing the emotional, like, what to expect after some of the emotions that come up for us after diagnosis or self identification. So we are in segment two of this series, but it is not chronological to how we're recording. So our brains are going to have a lot of fun with us.

[A]

Yeah, that's what. Usually I'm trying to piece all those things together sequentially and right now everything's all over the place. So it's a good representation of how my brain feels, which is scattered. But yes, thank you for that correction. And we are kind of jumping into this in a way where we're kind of unpacking the emotional experience, post discovery, a lot of the things that start coming up for us and surfacing and honestly, like, not only epiphany moments, but you start to almost have these visions or experiences of, like, childhood experiences, young adulthood or early in adolescence, and like, rethinking interactions, rethinking experiences in social situations in general. And just that, for me has been pretty ongoing since. Since I was diagnosed in 2021.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For me, the first, I would say three months specifically, but definitely six months. My brain just felt on fire in the sense of I was having so many associations and like, every experience would be like, oh, my gosh, it's this thing. It's not that. And then that would then bring me back to childhood memories. And I so wish I'd done more writing during that time and to capture all of those because it was such a. Like, I get. I get so. Jealous isn't the right word, because I get really happy. Like when people join our community and they're in that phase, I get so excited for them. And I also get, I think, nostalgic. That's the word. I get nostalgic for that season where I was having so many what just felt like electric aha moments. Was your experience at all like that?

[A]

Yeah, I think. I wish. I also wish I wrote that stuff down as it was coming to me and even as things are still coming to me now because my childhood memories are pretty foggy and that, you know, there was a lot of childhood trauma, so it's harder to sometimes unpack and create those linkages. But as I've like, worked through that quote, unquote, almost fugue state of it all, I'm starting to have more memories of being a child, being an adolescent, being a young adult, and like, all of the moments where I'm like, huh, that does make so much more sense. Right. Like, that even is me replaying social interactions, dates that I went on that went, like, horribly wrong and. And then just laughing at it and being like, ah, I see what happened here.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, let's go down. Let's go down that rabbit, rabbit trail. Let's talk about our dating lives and, like, what. Aha. Moments we had. Because I. I do think that relationships all of a sudden make a lot more sense when you have this lens. So what about your dating life? Were you like, oh, well, now that makes sense.

[A]

I want to say. I want to say missed opportunities, I guess, is the reality of, like, dates that I went on where women were clearly interested in me. Now, looking back on, like, signs and context that I was unable to pick up on in the moment and just being like, huh. I think that this could have went to a second date or turned into an actual relationship, or maybe this relationship would have sustained in a way that was, like, more natural and. And supportive, opposed to, like, ending in a crash and burn situation because I didn't do something or didn't communicate a certain way. And. Yeah, it's just funny to me. So, for example, I remember vividly, actually, I was going to move to Charlotte, North Carolina, instead of Asheville, and I'm really thankful that I did not do that. And I was on a group date with a friend and his friend, and she kept. We were watching football at this bar, and she kept coming closer to me in her seat and putting her leg on my leg. And I just kept moving because I assume she needs space. I am crowding her. And I kept moving over. And at the end of the night, I just remember her being like, all right, I think I'm gonna go and just fast forward to being like, oh, Patrick wasn't interested in me. And I was like, what? I didn't even know this was a thing. So I have a lot of experiences like that.

[B]

Yeah, the. The mist, like, the missed flirtation. Yeah.

[A]

Or like, going on a date that I thought went really well, only to be told afterwards, like, oh, you didn't, like, seem interested in me. You didn't. You didn't tell me that you were interested in me. And I. I just thought that was implied because we went on a date. So I didn't know I had to, like, communicate that explicitly.

[B]

That one trips me up, too, of, like, I assume things are known. But then again, also with my alexithymia and being more avoidant that's not necessarily communicated. So it's like, well, if my actions are showing you I'm interested, right? Like, clearly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you should just know that. Except. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

[A]

I was just going to say I think about my first date with Arielle. My wife and I talked about this before, but like, definitely didn't pick up on the fact that she was interested in me or she wanted me to like, kiss her good night. And I know I gave her like an awkward, like, pat on the shoulder and just like wandered off as quickly as I could to my car. And she was like, what the hell, dude? I was like standing in front of you, staring at you, obviously showing you signs that I wanted you to kiss me. And you just like, ran away. And I was like, I did not. I didn't get it. So sorry.

[B]

You have to say it. This, this really is where the like non verbals, the ability to perceive context intuitively. I think in the dating world there's so much nuance because it can be awkward to talk directly, like more so around because there's more vulnerability around romance. And so I think this is really where we feel a lot of friction as autistic people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's interesting because I think, I mean, I've definitely heard what you're experiencing. I feel like the more common stereotype is like the autistic person who is pursuing someone and not getting the signal the person's not interested in, like, oh, Friday night won't work for me. And so then they ask, they ask until. Yeah, exactly. That's a story that I feel like I hear more often and even like, have, you know, have heard unfortunate stories where more, more often when it's. Autistic men will like be accused of harassment because they keep asking someone out. But it, but it's a, it's a communication where. And sometimes I don't want to. Sometimes, you know, autistic people can harass people. It's not that we're not capable, but where the situation was. They just kept asking the person out because they weren't getting a clear response for sure. And. Or like even my. Again, because you could hear. You can hear dating advice like, well, have conversations with them. So like, I know autistic people who will like learn the schedule of that person. Let's say you're at the college campus. Be like, well, I know they leave that class then. So I'll try to have like some small talk then. And it's like, what is quote unquote, social skills? And what is like, leaning toward harassment? So that was something I was seeing a bit clinically when I. When I was working was like. And that's where, again, social skills are not a bad thing. They have to be framed correctly. But where autistic people can be vulnerable of being misperceived if they are learning these social. Like, they're like, this is what you're supposed to do. And then they're implementing it, but they're struggling to perceive this person's not interested.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can. Yeah. I've seen some unfortunate ways that's played out.

[A]

Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think probably when I was younger, maybe that was more where I would find myself is like, dating apps are also really confusing. I just want to say that, like, for those of you.

[B]

So I got married before dating apps existed, and I. I really want to experience dating apps. Yeah, I know that sounds so weird, but I'm so curious.

[A]

Well, they're. They're confusing because you're like messaging. Like, instant messaging back and forth. Right. So context can definitely be missed in how you're communicating. And then, like, I always found myself so confused either, like, being direct of like, hey, let's go out at this time and do this thing. And then that person being like, oh, you didn't show enough interest in me. And I was like, I was super direct or misreading, like, the passivity of conversation in it. That's just being framed as like, you're giving me all these details, so I assume that you're interested in me, but then you're telling me you're not interested in going out, and that's really confusing, and I don't know what to do with that information. It was just very overwhelming. I did meet my wife on match.com, though, so shout out to match.com.

[B]

That'S. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that makes sense to me is if at one point in your life you were like, I think about the pendulum. If you were overly direct and then got negative feedback from that, it would make so much sense. You would adapt to that. Again, thinking about masking as a survival strategy by being like, I will never assume anyone's interested in me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you were. If it was kind of like you were under registering people's interest and so we're pursuing extra. And if that. I would imagine that'd be painful for you, then what a natural response to just be like, unless someone explicitly says, patrick, kiss me, I'm assuming they are not interested for sure.

[A]

100% that's kind of how I felt. My wife will tell you story of, like, how when we first started dating, I used to, like, text her, DM her on social media, et cetera. Didn't realize that it was just my form of communicating on platforms that were just whatever was open on my phone or easily accessible. And she came over to my house and she was like, I need to talk to you. And I was like, oh, okay. Or this is like second or third date. I'm like, okay, this is probably going to end. And she was like, you need to stop messaging me on all of these platforms. Like one platform is enough. And I was just like, oh. I didn't even, like, register how that could feel really overwhelming to receive, like, texts, DMs, what, you know, and now it's so funny that she and I are like, communicating on Instagram, Facebook and text message throughout every single day simultaneously. And it's just like. But in the moment, I was like, oh, shit, I did something wrong.

[B]

Well, I imagine that happens. I mean, that's part of rsd. That's part of just having kind of past painful experiences is probably for a lot of us, whenever we get that, hey, I need to talk to you, we automatically, it's like, oh, I did something wrong. I don't know what, but I'm in trouble.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So my dating life was a lot of fun. Yeah. But I, you know, I also thought about, like, pre or post discovery, like, a lot of apologies that I issued to former partners of mine for, like, ending relationships poorly or communicating in a way that I think looking back, felt really shitty or too direct, too blunt, too, like, hurtful in situations given the context. So I really had to have a lot of come to terms in, like, accountability moments with myself of, like, you just really didn't treat people well. Not intentionally a lot of the time, but that's definitely how it came across. To some of these relationships that didn't go well.

[B]

I think that is a really helpful part of the recontextualizing past experiences is also the ability to see how, yeah, we in our past have perhaps hurt people and. And not because that was our intent, but because there was that cross neurotype interaction happening and we didn't understand it. We didn't perhaps understand what. Why that would be painful for me too. There's definitely been a lot of times I've been really direct in my past and I can now understand how that could have. That would have landed in a way that was painful and that I probably would have Handled differently if I had the awareness I have now. And I think we also have insight into ways that we've been hurt that we then have new context for. But I definitely think the relational ruptures in our past take on new context as part of the post discovery process.

[A]

For sure, 100% really well said. So between like working out of my like gambling addiction where you're supposed to like make amends to people, plus like recontextualizing through the lens of late discovery Audi hd, I was like, I have a lot of conversations I need to have because just, even friendships too. Like just friendships that went awry because of different expectations in what a friendship is or miscommunications or misinterpretations of information and intent.

[B]

So did you do that? Did you go follow up and yeah.

[A]

Probably to some people's frustration, I'm sure girlfriends from freshman year of college were like off, dude, like, I don't want to hear from you. But you know, it was a part of the process also for recovery was like I knew I had hurt people from addiction as well. So I was just wanting to just offer context which might have been too autistic of an experience for some people. Of like, here's all the context and here you go. And they're like, I haven't talked to you in 15 years, but thank you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I, I've left this, but thank you for dumping all of the context of why you were an ass to me 15 years ago.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're welcome. And you know, if you want to talk about it, and nobody ever took me up on that.

[B]

So what do you, what do you think that was doing for you to reach out to people from 15 years ago to give this context?

[A]

I think for so long I felt so lost and confused in my own self and my own like world that I was trying hard to like just explain it. Like, hey, here are the reasons why I've experienced my world the way I have because it's now finally clicking and making sense for me. And you know, I don't think a lot of, a lot of those people really needed that context or information. But I think it was clarifying for me.

[B]

And that's perhaps actually there's I think some wisdom in that too of like, for you, it probably felt like such a big aha moment because it's probably, I would guess knowing you wait on you of like that feels so value and consistent that I could have been that person 15 years ago to that person. So for you it's such a big aha moment to be able to contextualize it and understand it. But that doesn't mean it's going to be a aha moment for that person that they need resolution on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so even that is probably part of the process of. I think a lot of us are sitting with like, oh, like, wow, that relationship would have gone really different or that interaction if we'd known. Is it repairing for that person to hear this or is this something for kind of for me, for me to sort. Cause I, yeah, I, I think this is a big theme that comes up for people and then how much do I go back to my past to revisit some of those relationships and conversations?

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's one thing I've learned over time is like, not everyone needs that apology. Not everyone needs that explanation. Sometimes you need to just verbalize it or communicate it or write it down for yourself or share it with your therapist or like much healthier outlets and mechanisms sometimes. And I think that you start to deconstruct and like inspect all parts of yourself and your past and your, your present post discovery. And I think that leads you down all of these pathways of curiosity and just trying to figure out like which one to follow sometimes can be complicated and complex.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah, and that's where like that pingy sensation I was describing those first three months of it feels like so much to unpack. Like I was in a luxurious position where since I was already in psychoanalytic therapy, it's Kind of common to have more frequent visits. So I bumped my therapy back up to twice a week during that process because there was just so much my brain was working through.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And. And I do think kind of letting ourselves ping a little bit and also reminding ourselves we have time, we don't have to do all the sorting now. But, yeah, the metaphor I've used, and I know I've used it on this podcast before, but I don't know why. It's just the image in my head is like a dresser with drawers, and it's like I'm just opening different drawers, like opening the childhood drawer or. For me, there was also a lot of identities that got put back on the table. So my sexual identity, my gender identity. So those were also drawers that were open relationships. So it's. And I kind of letting myself. I don't know how you organize, but when I. When I organize and declutter, my. My room gets much more cluttery and messy. And it's, I think, very much the same process around post discovery. When you are decluttering through, looking through your past, it might feel like your dresser drawer is open and clothes are like all over the floor. As you're reorganizing, it often is more destabilizing and disorienting before we get to the place where it's actually really grounding and orienting. But there's that really messy stage where clothes are everywhere and we're like, what the hell is going on? And why are all the drawers open?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I just want to say that that image is my nightmare.

[B]

Is that not how you declutter? Oh, I sent you a picture. I sent you a picture a few months ago when I was decluttering and in my room. It was like, it expl. With books and piles and clothes and I. And then it lived like that for two weeks after my decluttering. That's. That's not your experience of decluttering?

[A]

Nope. I. That visual stimuli, clutter experiences is quite overwhelming to me. But I. I declutter by eliminating or removing. So I have to like, throw everything out.

[B]

So this is what I was doing. I threw out a lot of stuff.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I don't even.

[B]

There's a lot of mess.

[A]

I'm just like, get it in the garbage, bring trash bags and throw everything in the trash. And then. But that doesn't work for this process. You know, like when you're going. Like when you're saying, I'm going through drawer after drawer and pulling it out. And then, like, rearranging it. The whole, like, elimination process of just throw it out in the trash doesn't work. So my process has been quite complex in that regard because it's like, there's so much here to unpack. Right. So you can't just get rid of it. And everything in my being is like, just put it to the side, eliminate it, get rid of it. Minimalize. Minimalize. And this has been such a, like, nuanced process of, like, you're almost like peeling open an onion layer over, over and over and over again. And so it hasn't been as comforting as, like, for me, I love throwing shit out. Like, I love it. It is so soothing. And Ariel will be like, where's whatever? I'm like, I don't know. She's like, did you throw it out? I'm like, I would bet money on it. I have no idea. But I can't be trusted not to. So with this process, because it's so integral to our entire being and existence, you kind of have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And for me, that has sometimes looked like the visualization of, like, the messy open dresser drawers with stuff everywhere, because you really are, like, looking under every rock and every nook and cranny, so to speak.

[B]

I feel like that's such a good point because it's like this process is not very autistic friendly in the sense of it is messy, it is unpredictable, it is chaotic, it is. You can't necessarily put it in a nice kind of linear process because especially with the associations of, like, this, which leads to this. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

And I'll have these associations, like, randomly too. I. I'm sure you, you still do at times, but like I've told you, for this book process, I'll be like, walking down the road somewhere completely in my own thoughts and whatever's around me. And all of a sudden something will hit me and I'm like, oh, I need to write that down. And then I don't want to forget it because my working, like, short term memory is so bad that I will often forget these things very quickly. And then I'm like, what was I. What was I trying to remember? Or what was the experience that I was trying to unpack and I lose it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Typing into Google Drive as I'm walking, like, almost getting hit by cars because I'm trying so hard to get this thing into my document that I can't forget.

[B]

Oh my gosh, please don't die. Walking into traffic, trying to write this book. Also, I've been using voice memo a lot more because my hand is messed up. And voice memo would be a great way to do that without getting hit.

[A]

You are, you're not wrong. So, yeah, that, that's been my process, and it's just been a messy one. And you're so right that it's really not like an autistic friendly process. It's, it's not like a structured, orderly, linear experience for me at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would be some of the, if we're, if we're using the dresser metaphor, like, what would be some of the drawers that you've kept revisiting as you've been making sense of your past through this new lens?

[A]

Definitely. I have, like, vivid memories of being age, like 8 to 12, which was a really hard year, couple of years for me. I very felt very isolated and very alone, and I spent a lot of time by myself. And I had four, I have four sisters. So, like, there was people in my house all the time, but I, I spent a lot of time in my room just reading or, like, lining up my action figures in a particular way. And I just never understood why I was just so uncomfortable going to school, why I called out sick all the time, how I got sick all the time. Like, I got mono when I was like, seven. Didn't make any sense to me. I had, like, strep throat constantly. I was always just trying to figure out, like, why can't I sleep? Why am I having such a hard time, like, getting comfortable in my own body? And I think about that a lot now. You know, as I'm about to turn 39 tomorrow, like, how challenging it was to be like, a kid and a young teenager and adolescent. I think about that often. I think about, like, college experience pretty often, especially combined with, like, the gambling stuff. And then, like, yeah, those are the two periods of my life that I go back to a lot. I don't know why. What about you?

[B]

It's interesting. You go to, like, periods of life. That makes a lot of sense. I, I, I don't. That would be interesting. I haven't thought about it as periods. I think there's been, like, clusters. I think relationships were a big one. Like, I, it was always confusing to me. Like, whenever I would join a group. So whether it's, you know, like, there's a group of friends starting to form in middle school, or, like, when I'd go to camp, there'd be a cabin of girls. And it's like, I, I could initially, like, the first day, I'd be at the same pace as the group, but then over time, it's like I'd slowly. I'd see them get closer and closer and closer and I'd slowly feel more and more on the outskirts. And I didn't understand, like, why am I never in the core of a group? Why do I. Pretty much, except minus a few exceptions, it's like, why. Why do I always end up feeling on the outside and I'm not seeing what's happening, I'm not seeing how they're getting closer and I'm not like. So I think that experience of like feeling like I'm starting out at the same pace of the group, but inevitably they always get closer and I always feel on the outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That all of a sudden made so much more sense. And it's just. I think it's something that was both, like, sad to me, confusing, but also perhaps had some shame of like, like, what's up with that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So relationships, I would say just relationships are. Are huge. Both. Both peer relationships, but also, yeah, definitely romantic relationships as well. I think this sensory stuff was huge for me, especially with my family life. Like, I remember I. I have this really distinct memory of being in the kitchen and Luke touching the back of my, like the. He put his hand on like the small of my back and like having a startled response and feeling so bad about that because, like, it, you know, when you affectionately touch your spouse, you're not wanting them to have like a shocked negative response to that. And when you're being touched by your spouse, you're not wanting to have that response. And so I think there's a lot of questions around, like, what does it mean that it's hard for me when my spouse touches me, but then also with. With the kids of early parenting was so, so hard for me and not understanding why, but then being able to look back and say, like, wow, I was so sensory overloaded. I was so over touched.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so there was so much about my domestic. I was like, quote, domestic life around being a mother, about. Around being a spouse. That. That was both helpful for me, but it's also really helpful for Luke to understand. Like, it was so helpful in our marriage to be able to have language of. It's not that your touch disgusts me, it's that I wasn't expecting it. And I have these sensory components.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So those would be. I mean, there are so many drawers in my post discovery, but those would be a few that stand out.

[A]

That makes a lot of Sense. I can relate a lot to what you said about like the groups. Even at, you know, in like 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th grade, hard times, like junior high was so hard, high school was so hard. And even though I played soccer all throughout, you know, played jv, played varsity, it was always a part of my life. I never felt like I was a part of the team. Like, I went on the bus with everyone, I went to practice. But I was really only close with one person who was my best friend growing up. And I remember feeling really jealous if he had other friends because I was like, this is my person. I don't have any other people. So him spreading his attention to other people, I would always feel like a bit frustrated or resentful. I could never understand why. I know we've talked about how special interests sometimes are people as well. And I can also relate definitely with like being married and, you know, Arielle giving me presents or off, you know, gestures and me not reacting a certain way or me not wanting to go to her very large, loving family gatherings that occur so often and not not understanding how to communicate that. But even as I started to understand better before my discovery, I would just say I'm getting, I get very overwhelmed by this. It's very over stimulating. I didn't really have any other language for it, though. And she wasn't as understanding as she is today. And that would be hard. That would cause friction and some rupture and her being like, do you not like my family? Do you not enjoy the things that I enjoy? You don't ever react to the gifts that I give you that I put so much thought and intention to with the reaction that I want you to have basically, or expect. And that would be so I would feel so ashamed and like almost hurt as if like I hurt this person that I care so much about, but I didn't intend to. I just, my face didn't give you or my body didn't react in a way that you, you anticipated. And now she's like, here's some stuff for your special interest. Go off and do whatever you want with them. Which is great. It's so great. But like, in that in between time, it's really challenging because, you know, she really left a lot of those interactions thinking like, he's just not that into me. It's probably really the reality.

[B]

Yeah, I just had a wave of sadness hearing you talk about like all the people who are still like un. Unknown, autistic unknown, like undiagnosed. Unidentified because this is so common and like, everything you're saying, I'm like, yep, yep. Like, I remember. So we live closer to my family. And whenever we go to family events, like, even just being in the car anticipating it, I'd already start, like, low grade dissociating.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And being like, why don't I like family events? And then there must be something wrong, like, either with the family dynamics or like, over interpreting it because we don't have the right language. So whether it's someone else being like, he just doesn't seem that into me. Why, you know, why doesn't he want to come to my family event? Or your response to gifts, or whether it's our interpretation of why, like, why am I repulsed by touch or why don't I want to go hang out with people I love? And then the tendency, I think especially if we have ocd, because there's like, relationship ocd, right? Then the tendency to be like, there must be something fundamentally wrong either in my relationship or with me. I must be like, something deeply wrong with me. Because we don't have the language and it's. It causes so much pain for us, but also for the people in our lives.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well said. There's like a trifecta there, right? Of like, if you have relationship OCD and you have an avoidant attachment style and you are undiagnosed autistic with a lot of sensory struggle. Wow. Relationships are hard.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I kind of want to make that diagram now because that. That I. That. I think that would be me.

[A]

That's me to A, to a T.

[B]

You know, Is that why we connect or do we connect despite that?

[A]

You know, I don't have the introspective capabilities to go that deep. But I do think, like, for me, the combination of those things, right, they prevented a lot of, like, not just romantic relationships, but platonic relationships because of whatever the factors. And I mean, and then you go down the rabbit holes when you're not diagnosed yet and you don't have the language, you start to like, maybe deep dive attachment theory. And you're like, it's just because I have an avoidant attachment style that I can't connect with anybody.

[B]

But it's. But it's actually so much more. So I'm having more. I'm having an aha moment. So one of my relationship patterns that made a lot more sense post diagnosis was this idea where people become special interests. So I'd get really infatuated with people. And then my dating history. I'd often date people for like three months. And then, like, it would end. And I think, and partly, I think when the special interest energy wore off and also the new shininess of it wore off, then. Then the avoidance stuff would become more front and center. The relationship ocd, all of the self doubt of, well, I don't feel the way I used to feel when this was a new shiny special interest. The sensory stuff would start bugging me more of relationships would start feeling intrusive. Not just because of my avoidant attachment, because of sensory. So I think it's like I needed the energy of someone being a special interest for me to be. To like push through the avoidant and the. And then as soon as that special interest energy, the new kind of shifted, then that trifecta you just described would come in and inevitably the relationship would end. So it's like a ping pong between intense special interest and then that trifecta, which is, yeah, pretty hard for relationships.

[A]

Yeah, they're, you know, that combo doesn't bode well for success or longevity in relationships, whether they be romantic or platonic, hard. And you start to almost like second guess your instincts. You know, you're like, do I not like being around them because they make me feel a certain way. Am I picking up on some sort of energy? They do this really little annoying thing that I'm now picking up on every single time they do it and let me figure out a way to end this relationship really abruptly. Yes, I did very well.

[B]

Well, and that can also be. Yeah, part of that. The masking and the OCD relationship stuff. There's a complicated crossover there of like, I know when someone would cross their arms or would look away, I'd be like, oh, they're done with the conversation, so I'm gonna leave before they leave. But I actually think that, that I would say is masking, not ocd, because it's like I've hypervigilantly learned certain social cues.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I get it wrong sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that just the intersection then also of masking an OCD can get really complicated. I actually, I don't think I would. I wouldn't say I think I did have relationship ocd. I actually don't think I do anymore. But I think the reason I don't is because I now understand masking. I now understand what's happening. But I think when I didn't have a framework, I was like, I did have more of that relationship OCD where I was like, what does this mean? And all of this, all of that doubt for sure would you say you still have it or did that ease up after that?

[A]

For sure. I think that I've gotten a lot better at trusting my intuition and my gut and my energy in terms of relationships. And I used to really assume the best out of people, especially at face value, which led to a lot of me getting hurt in situations. But I think post discovery and unmasking more that relationships that I do have feel much more intentional and much more authentic. And I'm really good at collecting those people in my life and I'm also really good at like removing the rest. So I would say that sometimes that feels like a blessing and a curse of being able to decide whether or not I want this person in my life or not and knowing it very quickly. But yeah, I'd say it's eased up.

[B]

Yeah, I'd be interested to look at that. I bet that would be the case for a lot of us because it just makes sense. I often talk about how OCD and anxiety will kind of infect organic neurodivergent woundings and then especially when we don't understand what's happening. And I would think just when you have no concept of what's happening of why relationships are hard or why there's Mrs. That just leaves so much breeding ground for anxiety or OCD to just have a heyday.

[A]

Oh, a hundred percent, without a doubt. And I think you internalize a lot of it too. Of like, yeah, must be me.

[B]

Yeah, I did some of that and I wish I could be like, oh, that's all I did. But I maybe I'm a little. I don't know what this says about me, but I was more prone to be like, maybe it's the relationship and I should go be looking for like partly because of the idealization. I should be go looking for a relationship where this thing like isn't. Isn't here like looking for that idealized relationship. So I did internalize some but I also it became about the relationship of this miss Means this relationship is not meant to be. And that was partly why I had so many short relationships.

[A]

The next one will be.

[B]

The next one will be perfect and idealized and also that like kind of tainted. Once it's tainted, it's ruined. And so then it's like, yep, I.

[A]

Can really definitely can relate to that. So yeah, it's interesting like looking at. Back at it through all of these, all these quote unquote drawers lenses for sure. It's. I just kind of apply that lens to everything now I think is the difference between Pre and post discovery is this lens is here to stay. So it's just like how I view the world completely at all times, which I'm sure a lot of people get really fucking annoyed by.

[B]

Yeah, well. And I wonder if it's interesting. I even think about this with the person you reach out to 15 years ago. I think sometimes we might be explaining something that feels powerful to us because it has context, but where for other people, it could sound like we're trying to excuse our behavior. If it's like, well, because of my autism, for other people, it might sound like, oh, you're just making an excuse. Or especially if it's like, well, because of my adhd, this is why that was hard.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I could see how even if that's not how we're meeting it, if we're not trying to do it that way, I could see how it could sound that way. So I definitely get how the experience on the other side of getting all our context dumps might be a little different.

[A]

Some people really received it well. Just want to name that. But, Yeah, I agree 100%. And also, there's the other side of the coin. I don't know if we talked about this, but maybe briefly or vaguely, there's the other side of the coin where people are like, do you ever not talk about how autism and ADHD impacts everything? You do get that?

[B]

I mean, I get, like, some versions of that of, like, kind of the idea of you're making this too much of your identity, or so I get some of that.

[A]

How do you respond to that?

[B]

I mean, it kind of depends. It kind of depends. Like, actually, one of my children has been very thoughtful around, like, they don't want this to be their only identity, and they kind of see me do that. And so, like, that's a very different conversation where. Because we both share the identity and where I actually find that conversation really interesting of, like, that that's their experience of specifically the autism identity and how. And I actually really respect the way that they articulate how they want to be thoughtful about, you know, making space for their multiplicity. I actually think that's kind of cool. I think if it's coming from a more. With a more negative bent, it's kind of like, yeah, you know, I think because there's so many aha realizations and aha. Like, right now, it feels like a really forward lens. I will say. I will say. So I'm what, four and a half? I don't know. I stopped doing math. I'm Four and a half years out. I will say it's still a lens, but it's not like the lens in the same way it was the first two or three years where it's like, oh, my gosh, everything makes sense. I would say I now have more multiple lens. And I also. I think I also tended to be like, if I do something, and I asked other autistic people if they did something and if they were yes. And I'm like, it's an autistic thing. And now I'm like, oh, some of this stuff is actually a human thing. It's just that I'm asking, like, the confirmation bias of, like, I'm asking other autistic people, and they're saying yes. So. So I'm also doing less, like, I'm kind of holding the lens more gently of like, this might be an autistic thing. It also might be a human thing. And so I would say the way I'm holding the lens is a little bit different. But I do think this is part of the identity development model is when we're first discovering it does become a really powerful lens. And it kind of needs to be because we're doing so much work, and if people are reacting negatively to that, it's kind of like, well, this is actually part of a natural progression we would expect of someone integrating a new identity. And it will usually kind of lighten up or ease up as the person progresses through. But it kind of needs to be front and center in those first seasons because you are reimagining so much of your past through this new lens.

[A]

100%. Couldn't say it better myself. I'd say that's a good endpoint.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, we didn't talk a lot about reimagining our history through adhd. Would you like to do a the next episode on that, or do you feel like we just won't have enough content?

[A]

Okay, yeah, let's do that.

[B]

Okay, sounds good.

[A]

I think that's a perfect segue into that. That next conversation. So thank you for naming that. And we are, you know, like we mentioned in whatever episode. I can't track the episode since we're batching and they're all over the place that we do default a lot to the autistic side of things. But we do want to try to be more mindful of the fact that we. We are both ADHDers. So we're going to do our best. And in true ADHD fashion, by the next time we record, we may forget we don't know, but I'm going to close this out per ush. I really like what you text me by the way. Maybe we can integrate that at some point in time. About the ads that you saw on other podcasts about a specific company, but the company that shall not be named because it has sent numerous cease and desists to numerous colleagues of mine. We are supported by a different company called Chain App and they are a healthcare EHR and medical record system for mental health and medical providers. You can use Code DC podcast for two free months when you sign up. So we want to thank them and we will see you next Friday on all the platforms.

[B]

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.