Episode 127 (Season 4): Landmark College: Neuro-Inclusive College to Career Transitions [featuring Jan Coplan]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Landmark College—Neuro-Inclusive College to Career Transitions

Divergent Conversations, Episode 127 (Season 4), October 10, 2025
Host(s): Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale
Guest: Jan Coplan, Senior Director of Employer Relations & Career Connections at Landmark College

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Overview

This episode explores the unique challenges and opportunities faced by neurodivergent individuals as they transition from college to the workplace. Dr. Neff and Patrick share personal stories of entering the workforce, reflect on barriers to employment, and discuss best practices for creating neuro-inclusive recruitment, onboarding, and workplace cultures. The episode features a detailed interview with Jan Coplan from Landmark College—a school dedicated to students who learn differently—who shares practical strategies for both job seekers and employers to foster neurodiversity in professional settings.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experiences: Neurodivergent Entry into the Workforce

Timestamps: 01:17–20:36

• The Daunting Job Market: Both hosts recall entering the workforce during the 2008–2009 recession, amplifying the challenges of neurodivergence in job hunting.
• Application Process Barriers:
  • Executive Function Overload: The process of applying, interviewing, and adapting resumes described as “intimidating” and “overwhelming.”
  • “Application processes are not accessible for the most part... It’s really unbelievably overwhelming.”—Patrick (03:41)
• Interview Struggles:
  • Struggle to “mask” and perform expected social dynamics, difficulty processing questions on the spot, discomfort with embellishment.
  • “In interviews, this worked well in the psychology field, but I would answer really honestly. The more corporate I got, the less that went over well.”—Megan (05:01)
• The Social Side of Work:
  • Networking, workplace socials, and “cultural fit” as major barriers.
  • “I’d go to my little office, I’d avoid lunch hour as much as I could.”—Megan (17:06)

2. Unpacking Neurotypical Norms in Hiring & Workplaces

Timestamps: 06:17–24:59

• Neurotypical Biases in Interviews:
  • Research shows allistic (non-autistic) interviewers often favor likability and sociability, which can disadvantage autistic candidates.
  • “What we know about cross-neurotype studies... if that’s an allistic interviewer interviewing an autistic person, they’re less likely to connect in that way.”—Megan (07:00)
• Masking & Burnout:
  • High cognitive and emotional cost of masking during interviews and on the job.
  • “I can be really charismatic and gregarious... but that just took an enormous amount of energy.”—Patrick (16:25)
• Honesty vs. Expected Performance:
  • Tension between “direct” communication and what interviewers want to hear.
  • “Ambivalence is often honest... but you kind of have to mask that in an interview.”—Megan (15:20)
• Bottom-Up Processing & the Future:
  • Difficulty with hypothetical questions like “Where do you see yourself in five years?”
  • “It’s like until I'm in the system, I’m not going to know what I want.”—Megan (15:51)

3. Creating Neuro-Inclusive Workplaces

Timestamps: 20:36–28:37

• Disclosure:
  • Most neurodivergent employees don’t disclose in traditional workplaces due to fears of bias or being “othered.”
  • “Will the employer be understanding?... Are you discriminated against?”—Patrick (20:51)
• The “Neuro-Humility” Mindset:
  • Megan introduces the term “neurological humility”—akin to cultural humility—encouraging curiosity, openness, and the avoidance of assumptions in cross-neurotype interactions.
  • “I think all of us could benefit from more neurological humility.”—Megan (24:59)
• Universal Accommodations:
  • Many accommodations (clearer expectations, flexible work, alternative communications modes) help all employees, not just neurodivergent ones.
  • “A lot of these things, it’s not just helpful for the neurodivergent person, but it’s helpful all around.”—Megan (26:29)

4. Key Takeaways on Transition Supports

• Explicit Clarity:
  • Job roles, expectations, and responsibilities should be explained explicitly up front.
• Flexible Scheduling:
  • Accommodations like remote work or modified hours benefit neurodivergent employees, especially those with sleep struggles.
• Check-ins and Feedback:
  • Regular, concrete feedback and a clear process for self-advocacy help all parties understand and adjust to workplace culture.

5. The Heart of Inclusion: Curiosity

Memorable Quote
“Curiosity opens space, whereas assumptions close space.”—Megan (28:58)

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Interview with Jan Coplan (Landmark College)

Timestamps: 29:22–62:12

Introduction & Landmark’s Mission

• Landmark College:
  • A higher education institution exclusively for students who learn differently (ADHD, autism, dyslexia, etc.)
  • Emphasis on strengths-based advising, individualized coaching, and a robust, affirming transition to employment.
• Jan Coplan’s Work:
  • Over 28 years in the field, focusing on bridging the gap between neurodivergent students and the workplace, and instrumental in Landmark’s designation as the US’s first “neurodiversity hub.”

Landmark’s Approach to Neuro-Inclusive Career Prep

Strengths-Based, Not Deficit-Oriented (32:36)

• Advising and coaching students to understand their diagnosis as a source of strength.
• Building work experiences and self-advocacy skills.

Employer Engagement & Building Inclusive Practices

• Demystifying Accommodations:
  • “In order to have an individual in the workplace [with ND diagnosis]... it’s not a huge overhaul... They can be very simple. Noise-cancelling headphones, or frequent breaks, for example.”—Jan (33:33)
• Business Case for Neuro-Inclusion:
  • “When your workforce is diversified and has the elements of neurodivergence within it, your bottom line will just drastically be affected... Companies that have these programs perform at a better rate.” (33:48)
• Wider Neurodivergent Definition:
  • Not limited to autism—includes ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, PTSD, etc.
  • “It’s a social movement right now... neurological difference is not a deficit, it’s a strength.” (36:08)

Adapting the Hiring Process

• Accessible Applications:
  • Job descriptions and online applications should be accessible (not a “sea of words” for dyslexic candidates).
• Flexible Interview Options:
  • Offer choices: video, text/email, getting questions beforehand, skills demonstration instead of “fit”-based chatting.
  • “Our interview process, you have the option of interviewing via email. I’ve hired people without ever speaking to them or seeing their faces.”—Patrick (40:13)
• Reducing Emphasis on Sociability “Fit”:
  • Employers should ask: Is this task relevant to the actual job, or just workplace culture?
  • “Are they going to be on the golf course... and is that relevant to the job?”

Ongoing Dialogue & Advocacy

• Supporting Advocacy:
  • Coaching students on unwritten workplace rules and regular check-ins.
  • “There’s a lot of fear around [being let go without warning]. We’re coaching our students around advocacy and regular check-ins.”—Jan (47:25)
• On Disclosure:
  • There’s no single “right” way or time to disclose—context and personal comfort level matter.
  • “What I tell them is there’s no one hard and fast way. It depends on where you’re applying, your comfort level, the supervisor, and the company culture.”—Jan (49:57)
• Interviewing the Employer:
  • Students are encouraged to ask for environments where they do their best work (“My best work is done when…”) even without explicit disclosure.
  • “You are interviewing the company wherever you are trying to obtain employment, and you want to make sure that it’s a mutual fit.”—Patrick (53:54)

Landmark’s Upcoming Neuro-Inclusive Career Fair

Timestamps: 54:37–59:45

• Intentional Sensory & Social Design:
  • Designed exclusively for Landmark students, with employer training beforehand.
  • “We want employers understanding why the sensory stuff is overwhelming... we want the students to feel comfortable.”
• Success Momentum:
  • Jan highlights the importance of “success momentum,” i.e., giving students chances for positive experiences and progression (internships, gradual growth).

Final Takeaways

• Challenge Your Biases:
  • Jan urges listeners, especially employers, to self-reflect on their own assumptions about neurodivergence and to open their hiring practices.
  • “When I present, I always ask... what assumptions, what biases might you have... and just check in.” (60:38)
• Resources Are Available:
  • Landmark offers trainings and support; there are many resources for businesses wishing to become more neuro-inclusive.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• “Application processes are not accessible for the most part... It’s really unbelievably overwhelming.” —Patrick (03:41)
• “Ambivalence is often honest... but you kind of have to mask that in an interview.” —Megan (15:20)
• “I think all of us could benefit from more neurological humility.” —Megan (24:59)
• “Curiosity opens space, whereas assumptions close space.” —Megan (28:58)
• “When your workforce is diversified and has the elements of neurodivergence within it, your bottom line will just drastically be affected…” —Jan Coplan (33:48)
• “Success momentum... our students need little stepping stones of feeling successful.” —Jan Coplan (57:40)
• “What assumptions, what biases might you have that you might not be aware that you have... just check in.” —Jan Coplan (60:38)

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• For Neurodivergent Job Seekers:

  • Seek environments open to flexibility and advocacy.
  • You have strengths—don’t be afraid to ask for what you need to do your best work.
  • Disclosure is personal; do what feels safe and right for you.

• For Employers:

  • Creating an inclusive workplace does not require massive overhaul—small, intentional changes make a big difference.
  • Challenge your assumptions; seek input directly from neurodivergent applicants and employees.
  • Providing different communication and interviewing options is both easy and impactful.
  • Foster “neurological humility” and curiosity for better engagement across all staff.

• For Educators & Institutions:

  • Support doesn’t end at graduation; build bridges to employment emphasizing strengths, advocacy, and ongoing dialogue.

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Final Note

This episode powerfully illustrates both the barriers neurodivergent individuals face in workplaces and higher education’s crucial role in facilitating inclusive transitions. Whether you’re a job seeker, employer, or advocate, the message is clear: curiosity, humility, intention, and dialogue are the heart of true inclusion.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[B]

And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are continuing our conversation today about life, post discovery. And today we are talking about work and transitioning into the workplace. And I know that back when I graduated college in 2008, into that wonderful recession that we had, the only skill set that I had was bartending. And I certainly was not ready to.

[A]

Transition into a workplace that's so interesting. So I didn't make this connection until just now. But I also. So transitioning to the workplace was also hard for me. Shocker. So I was like, I'll just do more school. So I went and did a three year master's. That's when I did my first master's and I graduated from that in 2009. So when I was applying for jobs, like every job I applied for had like 200, 300 applications.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it was a. It was top of being neurodivergent. It was a really hard time to be hitting the job market. Perhaps similar to right now for a lot of folks.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. But market is, is. Is rough and there are a lot of applicants and A lot of overqualified applicants for a lot of limited positions. And I think when you are in that space, you're not only trying to get your needs met, but you're panicking, trying to find your footing. If you're coming right out of college or grad school and trying to find work, it can be really daunting. Application processes are not accessible for the most part. Like having to go online, click a link, go through a online quiz or assessment at times, like schedule a follow up call or an interview or a video call. It's really unbelievably overwhelming.

[A]

Yeah. I mean talk about decision paralysis, but then also the executive functioning of applying. And the part about applying for jobs that's always been hardest for me is like, I always felt like I was lying on like cvs, resumes, cover letters, because everyone kind of oversells their skill sets on these things. Like they'll like, it'll be like, I know how to do email and you make it. How would that read on a cv?

[B]

Like, I don't know. At this point in time I would probably put into ChatGPT, like, help me make this sound more like appealing or more exciting. I used to remember putting like, I can type 60 words per minute as a job skill. And right now it's, I mean people will be like, what the fuck is this?

[A]

Like, what is this on this. Yeah, yeah. So like resumes always just seemed really intimidating. Intimidating, yeah, the whole process. I, like, I have not had a traditional work career at all, like at all.

[B]

Yeah, I have not since COVID I mean everything pivoted for a lot of people, but for, and for a lot of people who discovered their neurodivergence later in life or form of it, I was working from a home. You had so much energy. I could be in my bed until the alarm went off and walk upstairs. Like, it was great. I always thought like, interviews are weird, right? And I don't know what my five year plan is. So if you ask me where I'm going to be in five years or how I'm going to help the company, I would always have to embellish that or make up the answer that they wanted to hear.

[A]

But that's also hard for a lot of us because it feels like we're lying. So like, I don't, I. In interviews, in some interviews, this worked well in the psychology field, but I would answer really honestly. And then the more corporate I got, the less that went over well.

[B]

Yep, absolutely. I've also been in and I've Talked about this with our upcoming episode with Jan Copeland from Landmark College. I have been in the side of being the interviewer a lot of times in my workplace and I just, I didn't know I was Audi HD at the time, but I would just eliminate all the fluff from the conversation. Like we don't need to know anything aside from do you know how to do the job that we are hiring you for? And do I feel like you are a good fit in the workplace? Because so often there are so many things that are going to be missed. Right. Contextually like is this person going to come out for like after dinner, drinks at work or are they going to be good at networking and hanging out around the water cooler or whatever? And it's like that stuff never mattered to me. So it was, I would do interviews in 10, 15 minutes and if you weren't a good fit I would just kind of blow it out very quickly because like why waste our time?

[A]

So this I don't think there has been, but this would be an interesting. So my, my sister in law is actually in like kind of organizational psychology field and she does a lot of interesting research. I should ask her. I doubt there's been research on this, but it'd be interesting to look at. When autistic folks are running the interview versus holistic folks, what are they looking for and how does that influence, I guess, decision making? I think there has been research about how a lot of people overemphasize a lot of holistic people over emphasize like likability or sociability of is this someone I want to hang out with? And then if, because what we know about cross neurotype studies.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If that's an allistic interviewer interviewing an autistic person, they're less likely to connect in that way. And so that would obviously be then a detriment to the autistic interviewee. But I would be curious. I would, I would think maybe autistic interviewers would be a little bit more. Of course not across the board, but might be more like looking at some of the facts of can this person do this job? They might have more of an algorithm in mind of what they're considering.

[B]

Yeah. Unless do I think this person would understand my jokes or would this person laugh at some of the things in the workplace I was always just like can you do the job? Here are the facts. Give those to me. Let's be done with this. Let's not have an hour long interview because we don't need to. Let's make it as short as possible.

[A]

That, that said. So as soon as I said that I was like, okay, that's a contradiction. Everyone I've hired on my team, yes, they could do the job. But it's also because I, I intuitively really liked them and clicked with them and I, I have a small team. So liking the people and knowing that they would gel well, like that is actually that becomes really important when you have a small team.

[B]

100. Yeah, I've always hired off of intuition and I've always like said, which I.

[A]

Guess that's what, maybe that's what allistic people do is they also hire off intuition. Yeah, and we do too. It's just when you've got a cross neurotype situation, our intuition is often not as, like we don't feel as energetic and sparkly about cross neurotype interactions in general than we do when we're connecting with kind of folks where we just naturally fall into rhythm and conversation. And so yeah, I guess maybe that's just kind of a human thing is, of course we're going to. Our intuition is going to influence some of that decision making.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Think about like how much masking goes into interviews too.

[A]

Oh yeah, so much.

[B]

I really psych myself up for this next 30, 40 minutes to show up and try to get this job. So I have to like present however I think they want me to present in order to. For employment.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And all the scripting that goes ahead, ahead of time, like I remember trying to think through any potential question they'd be asking me so that I could pre script a response. Because for me, I think you are better at this than I am. But processing speed in the moment is really hard for me. And so like a lot of times this still happens when I speak publicly and when I get to the Q and A, someone will ask me a question and I'll get stumped. And then after the call, when it's, when I don't have the pressure of it, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's. That's how I would have answered that. It's just, I don't, I need that processing speed, which, that's one line I've heard that I like as like an interview kind of like support we can use is something like. That's a really good question. Can I, can I. I'd like to take a minute to collect my thoughts which, like having something like that, that gives us a moment to like collect our thoughts before we're talking. When we're in an interview.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or asking for the questions ahead of time. I did that recently. I had a big interview for. Because I'm working on my UK visa, and I had a big interview as part of that process because I'm applying for a specific visa, and I needed an endorsement for that. And I did ask. I said, would it be possible to get some of the questions ahead of time? That really helps my brain processing. And they did. Yeah. And it was so helpful.

[B]

You know, it's really hard for a lot of us, too. Like panel interviews where you have multiple people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're trying to, like, figure out the social dynamics. You would say, maybe social ligaments. Who am I speaking to? Who am I making eye contact with? How am I looping back into this conversation? I'm getting com. Like, questions from these three people sitting in different places, and that becomes really, really challenging and really overwhelming.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Because it's. Then it's like there's two things happening. There's, like, the group dynamic of, like, when do I hop into the conversation? And there's also the. Like, I'm presenting.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually am sitting here today with you in this unorthodox career that I have discovered, probably because of my struggles in those types of interviews, because I was a criminal justice major in college, and I was working on becoming a border patrol agent in 2008. Just saying it out loud, but mainly because they said, you can be in San Diego or you can be in these cool locations. And I took it at face value of like, oh, I get to just live in San Diego.

[A]

My gosh, Patrick.

[B]

Like, I would be on the border of San Diego anyway. Went through the physical, the psychological, the interview process. And my last step was an oral panel of three different agents asking simultaneous questions and asking for vignettes and asking for you to share, step by step, what would you do in situations and make it up on the fly. I failed it miserably. And they tell you that immediately. So that was, like, a buildup of my entire career professionally. Immediately shattered. And I'm so thankful that it was for obvious reasons. And it was just shattered immediately because I could not figure out a way to figure out to answer questions in a way that they wanted me to answer them. And I also failed my final Teach for America panel interview, too, for the same reason.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

I couldn't do it. I just could not, like, create that story that they were looking for. And.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because there. And it goes back to the.

[C]

We.

[A]

We speak so directly. And it feels like we're lying if we're not. And that's.

[C]

And I think.

[A]

But people are expecting you. I think in interviews, they're expecting you to say something bigger. So then if the. If, like, what we're saying really matter of factly, if that to them, they're thinking that's our big story. Because that's what everyone does in an interview. It probably sounds really deflating or like. Or like we're very uninspired, whereas it's like, we are just very. It's the same thing. Okay, this is a really weird link. The same thing on the, on the Bachelor. Okay. I. I think I'm gonna. I think I might finally be done with the, with the franchise. But it's been a show I've watched since I was, like, I don't know, 16. So it's been, like a soothing show, and I have some embarrassment about it. But always on the Bachelor or the Bachelorette, there's one person who's like, I'm not sure I'll be ready for engagement. I really want to make sure about this, this, and this before we get there. And then the lead is, like, takes what. What feels like, really genuine. Like, I actually want to think about this before I get engaged and I love you as, like, doubt and lack of commitment. And in my mind, I'm like, no, that's like honest commitment. They're not love bombing you. They're not like, yes, we'll spend, like, forever together. They're like, actually being honest about it. But the lead almost always takes that as, like, a sign of doubt. And I'm like, no, that's a sign of, like, they're thinking deeply about it. And so if they decide yes, you know, that person has thought through it deeply, I feel like that's like the autistic person in the interview.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's, like, thinking deeply about it. And so that if we are committing, it's like, well, I've thought through these things. I'm not just going to say yes and give you this big vision unless I've, like, really thought through it.

[B]

And if I have really thought through it, then I'm really committed to it. So you're going to get, like 150% of all in this from. From this autistic interview or instead giving the job to someone who, like, embellishes whatever and isn't really all in.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Like, people don't like ambivalence, but ambivalence is often honest. And so. But you kind of have to Mask that in an interview.

[B]

Right. I could not ever answer the five year question of where do you see yourself five years? I would always say like, how would I know the answer to that? And they'd be like, but aren't you interested in progressing here and developing into higher levels of leadership? And I'd be like, I have no idea. I don't even know what I want to do tomorrow most days.

[A]

And I also feel like that's part of the bottom up processing for me. It's like until I'm in the system, I'm not going to know what I want. And so, yeah, how can I look in? I know I'm gonna, what I'm gonna want. This is all. Yeah, this is that bottom up processing. I think it's also that like, context insensitivity of like we can't perceive.

[C]

The.

[A]

Context that we haven't experienced yet to be able to make a statement like that. And so, yeah, and then we're gonna be honest about that versus just say, yeah, I want to be, I want to be in this position in 5.

[B]

Yearship and I want to be developing and learning about. Super. Yeah. I didn't know how to answer that question. I missed out on a lot of jobs, but I did find out like, if I was really high, masking, embellishing my answers. I secured a lot of offers of employment in my lifetime because I can be really charismatic and I can be really gregarious in certain situations. And I always found that if I was that way instead of my typical Eeyore self, that I got hired very frequently. And I never realized, like, wow, that just took an enormous amount of energy to like be in that environment for 30 minutes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I actually like did decently again when I, when it was like aligned with kind of my ethos. I did pretty decently in interviews too. But partly I was applying to places where like, humanness was valued. But then like, I could do well in interviews, but then I would, I would just work so hard because I was constantly like trying to prove my worth. And so I think that was, it's like all of the vulnerabilities I have, right? Like not feeling like I'm good enough, all of the overcompensating, all of the people pleasing, like that's what made me good in the traditional workplace was that relentlessness or in my, in my, in my internships. It's weird. Like my, I think my most classic work experience actually comes from my like, internships I did throughout my doctoral training. Because I would be in, like, hospitals and various settings. And it was just the. Yeah. The intensity of how I worked that people did, like, but it was. It wasn't the social networking. Like, I'd. I'd go to my little office, I'd avoid lunch hour as much as I could. And that was also painful to see how other. Other people would get these opportunities because of social connections. And that part was always a little bit harder for me. I did. I did get some nice breaks because of connections I had through, like, deep relationships. But that part of work is also hard. The whole networking piece.

[B]

Yeah, the hierarchical call. Hierarchical. Like, networking now because we ate lunch together and we've established some semblance of relationship. I might get a promotion out of it. Like, those are always the hard things for me. Like, to acknowledge that and. And also what you're saying, like, working so hard to prove something and then inevitably burning yourself out completely and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Work is. Work is complex for a lot of us. I mean, I love. So Esther Perel is someone I like in general, and she had. I don't know if she's. If this podcast is still active, but she had one about work for a while because it's this idea of, like, we bring our whole selves to work, so whatever, like, unfinished business we have psychologically, like, that shows up in the workplace.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So for neurodivergent folks like, we, frankly, I think we, a lot of us have a lot of unfinished business around identity and worth. And so if. If we're lucky enough to even get into the workplace, then all of that stuff is gonna show up there too. And that can be. That can be really complex.

[B]

Really complex. Yeah. Really well said. And, you know, I think for a lot of us, maybe whether or not we learned out, learned out, found out, figured out that we were autistic, ADHD later in life, or just in general had any form of neurodivergence or you were identified or diagnosed early on. Like, I think it's hard to go through, like, preparation mentally and skills based to really know what the workplace is going to be like once you get out of, like, schooling or training or any sort of education. Like, getting into the workplace is messy a lot of the time, and navigating dynamics, navigating the social sphere of everything, learning how to advocate for yourself, whether you.

[A]

Getting disclosure. Like. Yeah, do I. Most. Most people in traditional workplaces don't disclose autism or invisible disabilities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. Which is sad and also makes sense to me. Like, it says something about the state. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's just. And then it's like, will the employer be understanding? Will they honor and grant my accommodation needs and requests even though legally they kind of have to in most scenarios. Are you going to be treated differently afterwards? Are you discriminated against.

[A]

This? There's a wild story in so Neurodiversity Edge is a book I really like around like neuro inclusive workplaces. And in the book she tells the story of like she, she was pretty high up. I can't. This might have been her. I can't remember if this was the author's story. I read it a long time ago. Or if she was telling someone else's story. She might have been telling someone else's story. But someone who was high up disclosed that they were neurodivergent. It was like they were in a DEI ish type role, I believe. But where it was like outward facing the business was like responding the way you'd ideally want a business to respond. But then over time they were really like isolating her out. And until I can't remember again, they either fired her or she quit. But it was like, it was this really weird. They were saying they wanted to do this at the workplace, have more like neuro inclusion and then she comes out as neurodivergent and then over time gets like iced out from her job. Again, I'm not remembering the details, but it's just this, the irony of even if someone is using the language of this is what we want as a business, like you can still be in the position of actually that's. Actually that's not what they want.

[B]

100%. Yeah. Yep. As an employer who employs a lot of neurodivergent people, you know, we encourage disclosure, we encourage embracing self and that goes into communication, that goes into hiring, that goes into onboarding, that goes into how we move through the world and in the workplace. And I can still say like cross neurotype interactions can still become very complex and complicated, even with the best of intentions. And you know, for me, my communication style being much more direct than a lot of people's, can definitely rub people the wrong way unintentionally. Where it's like Patrick's just an asshole, he's so rude or he's so dismissive or so blunt. And you know, I think even with the best laid plans, you still need to have grace on both sides and for the employer side, for the employee side. And that's really the only way to create cohesion is to, to really be in open communication. And dialogue a lot of the time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think dialogue and humility, a term I've started using, and I started using this when I started doing trainings in the like workplace setting, was neurological humility. Like in the same way we talk about cultural humility, which is the idea of like, I'm not going to assume I know about you or your culture and I'm not going to assume that things about my culture are the right way to do things. And white people, we have a lot of work to do around cultural humility, partly because we don't always understand what's actually part of white culture. That's a whole other conversation. Neurological humility would be the same thing where it's like, I'm not going to assume, first of all, I'm not going to assume that I'm not in a neuro. In a cross neurotype interaction. Like any conversation we have could be a cross neurotype one and we don't always know. And then not assuming that like there's a right way to be processing the information or the sensory environment or a right way of communicating and to lean in with curiosity of like, okay, so if this person is being direct instead of being like, oh, well, they're arrogant or they're rude, can I slow down and wonder if maybe there's something else happening in this interaction that I'm missing? And all of us, like, certainly allistic people, but also autistic people, adhd, like all of us, I think could benefit from more neurological humility in that way.

[B]

Agreed. Yeah, that's very, very, very well said. And what you mentioned about being curious and not assuming and some of these like little accommodations and tweaks and edits that you can incorporate into the workplace are really low hanging fruit. Like, you know, shifting how you communicate in the workplace, offering multiple modes of communication, like making it foundational.

[A]

I'm curious if you could go back to college, Patrick, and if you did have this understanding what, what would have supported you in entering the workplace?

[B]

I think what would have been really supportive of me at that time would have been like flexible scheduling. In certain aspects of certain days, you can work from home. If you're having bad sleep nights, which happened so often back then, or you can work remotely, I think that would have been really wonderful. And just to have some real transparency about what the expectations of the jobs were. Because I think so often they're like hidden almost in context. And also just like this should just be intuitive or expected. So to have things laid out really black and white of like, here's your job, here's your responsibilities. This is what you need to be doing and when you should be doing it would have been really helpful because I spent a lot of time trying to read between the lines in a lot of situations and really creating a lot of frustration and a lot of overwhelm too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That clarity would be so helpful. It's interesting. That would be helpful for job placements too, because, like, turnover is costly. And so if they're able to also help, like, make sure it's a good fit from both sides and through providing that kind of clarity, like, that's the kind of thing I love when we start talking about, like accommodations is a lot of these things. It's not just that it's helpful for the neurodivergent person, but it's like, it's helpful all around. So that would be an example of if workplaces could do some of those shifts in their recruitment process. That's actually also good for them.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. It's a win. Win all around. And as an employer, I do know how costly hiring is and turnover is. So, like, being able to create a more inclusive space to ensure that turnover is less employees are more satisfied and feel more supported and more, more seen and understood would be really wonderful.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you had a really interesting conversation, I know, with Jan from Landmark, about this, about transitioning into the workplace, about supporting neurodivergent folks in the workplace. So we're gonna, we're gonna shift to that next. But anything else you wanna wrap up, you and me, before we segue to the conversation you all had, I think.

[B]

What you were talking about, about neuro. What did you say? Neurological.

[A]

Neurological humility.

[B]

Neurological humility. I was thinking, because I'm watching rewatching Ted Lasso again, and when he's just like quoting Walt Whitman of just be curious. And I think being curious and really doing some leaning into that in the workplace, both from the employee and the employer perspective, and being curious about each other's experiences, strengths, areas of growth and support, I think it really does make a much more inclusive environment and a much easier transition.

[A]

I love that. And that's, that's actually, that's really like at the heart of what I try to emphasize when I do these trainings too, of like, yeah, we can have checklists and that's, that's great to be thinking about sensory checklists and things we can do. But at the heart, like, if folks take one thing away about how do I make my workplace More neuro inclusive. It's lean into curiosity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you be curious about your employer if they're struggling, can you be curious about why and not jumping to a conclusion? Curiosity is just so needed right now in the world in general. But curiosity opens space, whereas assumptions close space. And so, yeah, I love that. Feels like a beautiful note for our part of the conversation to end on.

[B]

I agree. And we hope that you enjoy the next part of the conversation where I talk with Jan Copeland from Landmark about how they transition neurodivergent higher education into the workplace and support both the employer and the employee. And we will see you next Friday. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today I have a special bonus episode featuring a former sponsor of ours, a representative and a faculty member at Landmark College. So we have Jan Copeland, who has a master's in education and more than 28 years of experience in the field, has been a career counselor for the past 11 years. Currently the Senior Director of Employer Relations and Career connections at Landmark College in Putney, Vermont, an institution exclusively for students who learn differently, including dyslexia, ADHD and autism. Jan is passionately committed to creating greater awareness of the advantages of individuals with learning differences being brought into the workplace. In the last several years, she has contributing author to research published in this realm. During her 10 years at Landmark, she has worked to increase the number of professional work experiences for neurodivergent individuals, both locally and nationwide. She played an instrumental role at Landmark College becoming the first neurodiversity hub, a collaborative to create employment opportunities for neurodivergent students in the United States. Which is really cool. Huge accomplishment. Welcome to the show. Did I miss anything in your bio?

[C]

No, no. That's. That's. That's it. That's. I'm sure you'll learn more as I speak, but that's great. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, you are so welcome. And today, for those of you listening, Dr. Neff is not here. So I know if you just hear me speaking, you might be a bit bummed, but I love it. We are going to do a cool conversation on helping neurodivergent students transition into neuro inclusive workplaces and how to create neuro inclusive workplaces. I think the employer portion of this is a. A huge part of the conversation. So tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing at Landmark and why this kind of feels different than what's happening, you know, nationwide.

[C]

So my work is an umbrella over Landmark's mission to provide education that's accessible and to Encourage students about the strengths of diagnosis. So we have a very robust advising model at Landmark. And so my office basically replicates that, that we work with students individually, in groups and really help them understand through assessment and coaching and work opportunities.

[B]

What.

[C]

Their diagnosis, the role their diagnosis plays in them. Finding a job, getting a job and maintaining a job. Again, from a strengths based perspective.

[B]

Yeah, I love that you say that and that it's strengths based because I think so often when we're having these conversations, we're focusing on the deficits, we're focusing on the challenges, the struggles which are all real, it's all a part of the experience. But acknowledging that there are strengths here and unique strengths at that in terms of how the brains work and how different neurological variations show up, in terms of how we work, how we process information, ways that we can work in situations that we are set up for success. So I think the struggle a lot of the time is the employer, the employer section, the situation where it's like, okay, we understand how to talk about the strengths that neurodivergent candidates have in the workplace. How do we ensure that the employers are bought in, that the employers are creating a neuro inclusive space? What's that like for you on your end?

[C]

That's a large part of my mission is helping employers to see, first of all to, to deconstruct the myths that in order to have a individual in the workplace that has an autism diagnosis or a neurodivergent diagnosis, it's not a huge overhaul of your workplace. They're not expensive accommodations. They can be very simple, allowing the individual to wear noise canceling headphones or someone with an ADHD diagnosis, frequent breaks so they can get up and walk around. But also helping them understand that based on research that I've contributed to and the neurodivergent movement that I've been in, that when your workforce is diversified and has the elements of neurodivergence within it, your bottom line will just drastically be affected. So I think there's this concern that it's going to be this costly accommodation process where really when that investment is made and that the right supervision is provided, your company organization performs at a better rate. And that's all based in research and facts from companies that are, that have these programs.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's such a huge important point to make. Like creating accessibility does not cost a fortune. And I think that is a common misconception of we've got to do all this monumental overhaul. And there are some really low cost, high rewards here. Like, if we're talking about incorporating noise canceling headphones, if we're talking about changing the way our lighting is set up, the way that our physical office space is structured and allowing for this reality of like, we don't need a one size fits all workplace, and that doesn't work for most people. And I think that if you're out there listening and you're an employer and you're like, well, I don't employ neurodivergent humans. I don't think I would. I would argue that point intensely and acknowledging like, you definitely employ neurodivergent humans. You may not know it, but if they're not openly talking about it and you're going to come across neurodivergent humans, the neurodivergent umbrella is too big not to capture all different types of people and strengths and areas of how they can contribute to your organization.

[C]

Absolutely. And I think it's really important to help people understand. The definition is really evolved. There was an association that when someone spoke about being neurodivergent, that was only the autism spectrum. Whereas now, I mean, what the way that we've defined in research and Landmark defines it, it includes adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia. In some definitions, it's ptsd. It's just a variation in the brain. And the piece that I feel is really important is it's, I feel like it's a social movement right now. How do we change people's mindset? That neurological difference, as we said earlier, is not a deficit, it's an attribute, it's a strength. The employer, when they're considering hiring or diversifying their workforce, as you said, there's probably already diversity within. But are those individuals being supported in a way that they can be as successful as they.

[B]

I've seen them be a hundred percent. And I think that's the delineation, right? Are they being supported and are the accommodations being honored and met? And it is our duty as employers, because I am an employer, I own a group practice that employs 25 humans, most of whom are either autistic, ADHD or Audi HD. Are we meeting the accommodation requests? Are we normalizing accommodation requests? Are we openly talking about how we can become more affirming and more accessible? Or are we kind of saying as employers, well, this is the way we've always done it, or this is our traditional model and this is what works for us and we're not going to deviate and there are even things that we can do in Terms of how do we structure our work hours? Like for me, mornings are out. Like I cannot do the morning time because I don't sleep well as so many autistic ADHD humans have trouble with sleep. So are we going to require that everyone has to be in the office at 8 in the morning ready to go? Because that's not really realistic for a lot of the humans that we're talking about.

[C]

Right. I also, I appreciate you bringing up that point because what I've witnessed and, and have been working against for a while is even the interview structure or the recruiting structure. You have an application process that you go online, you look at the application. It is a sea of words for a dyslexic individual. And that individual, from what I've witnessed, is very capable of doing the job that's being advertised. But because the means of recruiting that individual is inaccessible, they can't apply. Or for some of the students I've worked with and our alumni, a series of numerous interviews that require a lot of conversation for a programming or a data entry position. I think employers need to consider is the job description reflecting and the interview process reflecting the role accurately. A lot of times they're looking for a fit. You know, is this person going to be able to go to the company barbecue, how are they going to be on the golf course, things like that, is that relevant to the job that they're going to be doing? And yes, companies have culture, but diversifying that culture and allowing, like you said, these ways of people being able to be productive and contribute greatly to the company without having to go to the company party or being on a golf course for three hours conversing, that is on your game, right? It's three hour golf game would be pretty quick nightmare for me. You get my point, right?

[B]

Well, I think that's such a great point of how and I've been in, I've been in a lot of leadership positions in my career and I maybe it's just because I was undiagnosed autistic, but I was always like let's just get all of the, the fluff out of this conversation. Like let's just get to the point can this person do the job and you know, do they want the job? And it always came down to that for me instead of thinking about all of the other things. But I know when I was still masking and I didn't know that I was autistic that I definitely went into interviews and I was like unbelievably uncomfortable but giving all of these different answers and trying to add context and trying to match eye contact and trying to like sit in my seat comfortably without like stimming. And in reality I was so uncomfortable. And for my staff. Right. Our interview process, you have the option of interviewing via email. I've hired people without ever speaking to them or seeing their faces because I always ask, what is your preferred way to go through this process? Do you want a set of questions beforehand so you can prepare? Would you like to just have a conversation? Would you prefer a video call? Would you prefer to do it via text based communication? And I think when employers hear that, they're like, well, that's a lot of different steps. And that feels really overwhelming to me. And yeah, I'm just curious about some of the resistance that you might see at times for things that to me feel really natural and simplistic. But a lot of people who are not Audi HD may not.

[C]

No, great point. There is resistance in some cases where it's, this is the template, this is how we do it. But one of the things that I have found is when either the student advocates or we present some examples of their work and projects that they've accomplished, there starts to be a little bit more of a flexible, okay, wow, this individual can really do the job. This is what we're looking for. Where can we be flexible? And then from what I've heard from these established programs that we have partnerships with various different corporations that have been recognized nationally and worldwide for their neuro inclusive programs and is as the years have gone on that they've had these programs, they are altering and improving the onboarding process, the interview process. A lot of them are doing it via, you know, show me, don't tell me, you know, here's some, show me examples or even gamification that are developing these different. And that's not that I don't want every employer to feel like, oh, this is this ominous take on, but just having that growth mindset of what can I do to provide a more accessible application process? And maybe it does need to have an interview but provide the questions beforehand, let it be on video the first time and then in person. But I loved your question.

[B]

What?

[C]

You know, how can I assess your skills in a way that works to your strengths?

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's what it comes down to. And I think that it's also a, a reality check where it's like, why don't we ask the applicant, you know, like why don't we ask the applicant what they prefer or how they will feel the most comfortable. It's the little changes to the like this is how we've always done it mentality air quotes for those of you not watching. And it's also the reality of like let's let self determination be a factor and little things like on a video call if you're, if, if you're requiring an interview over video offering permission not to make eye contact on that video call. It's just that little change in terms of this is so accessible and so accommodating just to name it, just to say it out loud. Or for example for those of you not watching like having any sort of tactile toy or fidget be readily available. And I think it's just like allowing for that to be a part of the process. Because I think for a lot of us who have gone to interviews if we need some sort of tactile stimulation or fidget to focus or feel regulated and we don't have it because we feel shamed or like we're going to be taken less seriously or we're going to be called distracting. That is really a situation that is so easily taken care of by just allowing the permission to do what you need to do to take care of your needs.

[C]

Absolutely. I appreciate your point regarding the accommodation of not having to make eye contact. I have a really powerful experience. About five years ago I was prepping a student for an interview and he was practicing the question and he verbally said excuse me, I'm not looking at you right now because I am processing. I am fully engaged in this conversation. But this helps me articulate my thoughts. And yeah I, that was pivotal for me that this individual could be, could take care of himself. But he could also educate the interviewer that I'm not distracted. I am not bored by our conversation. This is how I process my information. So these little adjustments, these, these the willingness of employers are willing to just have an open mind connect with the candidate or the employees that are already in the workforce. As you said they're, they're these individuals. It's just how safe, how affirmed are they in that workplace?

[B]

100 I love that that person was able to articulate that. And it seems like low hanging fruit. You know what I mean? Like being able to offer these little tweaks and how we, we create our processes and our policies and how we create from interview to onboarding to what is the day to day look like. And if you have the ability to allow your staff to work remotely offering the option of do you think that you would be better suited to work remotely. Do you prefer to be in person? Is a hybrid of the combination better suited? Like I love having very transparent conversations with everyone we hire about this preference. We also have a communication style Google form that I created where everyone fills it out about like how do you prefer to communicate? How do you prefer to process information? What's best in terms of offering feedback and support? And I do individual check ins with my staff and we will do, hey, would you like to do it via text, email, phone call, video call, et cetera? Because I want to offer and honor the fact that everyone communicates and processes differently. If you met me and I was just very direct and quote unquote blunt or straight to the point, you might think that I'm rude. You might think that I am like dismissing your, your perspective or idea. So I have to name it before we even get started so that we can have a mutual understanding of how to best support one another.

[C]

Right? Right. I think it's an what I found, Patrick, over the years is it. It's an ongoing dialogue because we want to empower the student that the candidate, the employee. But I find there are moments where a behavior or something has to be addressed so that they understand sadly the unwritten rules of the workplace. And it's not that they have to abide by all these formalities, but at the same time I find I'm helping my students make those things clear. Is there an unwritten rule that everybody shows up at 9 o' clock or everybody, you know, various different things that happen when you walk down the hall, a quick greeting, you don't have to chat for a long time. So I'm constantly in dialogue around what is professionalism, what's advocacy, how can you feel comfortable in the workplace being you, but at the same time understanding the culture. A lot of our coursework, we have a course called the Employment Readiness Experience right now at Landmark. And we dialogue all these things because what I hear frequently is I want to be told if I'm not doing something the right way, I don't want to. Just like some of our students have had happen, find a box on my, on my desk saying, hey, we decided to terminate this position. There's a lot of fear around that. And so we are coaching our students around advocacy and regular check ins. And then on the employer end, I'm educating them on how important it is to provide regular feedback and how you deliver that feedback. Because if it's, if there's a lot of assumptions made and it's not concrete. The individual's not going to get it and it's not their fault 100%.

[B]

Yeah, I like that you said that. And it is an ongoing, evolving. It's not a finite set of like the dialogue is forever, right? Like we always have to be having conversation and communication about all of this stuff from the employer side, from the employee side. So I really like that you mentioned that. How about does Landmark play a role in terms of ever talking about how do we unmask safely in the workplace? When to use disclosure about maybe a newfound diagnosis or identity? Is there any conversation around any of that?

[C]

Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. We have questions frequently from students around disclosure. And what I tell them is there's no one hard and fast way. It depends on where you're applying. It depends on your comfort level with your supervisor knowing your diagnosis. What we hear often from our corporate partners and our employers is the sooner I know, the better I can support you. We bring them in and they do Q and A sessions with our employers and have that dialogue and get to feel out some of their concerns and hesitation. But it's all individualized. It depends on the individual and it depends on where they're applying, if they're applying to. We have partnerships with some camps that support the neurodivergent. You definitely want to disclose in your cover letter your diagnosis or that you're neurodivergent because you have a lived experience that those campers that those employers are going to appreciate. But also we teach them ways to really research the company, its mission. And is it going to be an environment where you're going to feel safe disclosing and supported with your disclosure? And sadly, there's still a lot of businesses out there that have bias and assumptions. And that's my role. How do I educate those places? But that job description might look great, but the work environment might not be. I mean, legally they have to provide accommodation, but how how they're going to do that is very different place to place.

[B]

That's a good point. And we talk. Megan, Anna and I talk about this on the, on the podcast from time to time of like legally they have to provide accommodation. But how are you going to be treated post disclosure? And is there going to be. Are you going to be feeling different or othered or maybe bullied even or discriminated against? It does happen in the workplace and it's really unfortunate as we live in a iteration of society right now where autistic people might be feeling really under a microscope for a lot of different Reasons and a lot of misinformation out in the world right now about the autistic experience. So it is a. You have to disclose safely. I want everyone to hear that. Like Megan, Anna and I always talk about, like, pick and choose your moments. You have to do it safely. We want you to feel supported, we want you to feel seen, we want you to be able to unmask, but we want you to do it safely. And sometimes the. The environment is just not the right place, unfortunately. So you do have to just kind of find out what feels safe for you and what feels comfortable for you. And I think that's going to be different for everyone.

[C]

And you know, what I have seen as a really powerful stepping stone is where the candidate talks about what they need to be successful when you were talking about how do you prefer to be interviewed. And if they're not feeling safe about disclosing, they can advocate and request, I do my best work when or you're going to really see my strengths and my productivity. If these things could be provided to me or if I could. As they're working and getting to know their supervisor and the culture, they can ask for more and more of those things. But I even tell students in your interview, bring it up, my best work is done. And would your workplace provide that? So there's not a disclosure, but there's a cause. I tell them they're interviewing the company as well as the interview company's interviewing them.

[B]

That's a great point. That is a very good point. You are interviewing the company wherever you are trying to obtain employment, and you want to make sure that it's a mutual fit. Culturally, you want to make sure that it's a mutual fit for the place that you're going to be employed and for you, both of those things are important and equally true. So very, very good point, pivoting a little bit to what you're doing at Landmark. And I know you have, like, a career fair coming up, but you mentioned to me pre recording you really wanted to put the emphasis on the employer piece of that in this. In this component. So tell me a little bit about what that looks like and why that feels really important in this event.

[C]

Sure. So we are doing our first ever neurodivergent, friendly career fair. So it's October 22nd in the gym at Landmark, and we designed it in a way that it will include employers who have already hosted our students as interns or have hired them, and it will include local employers that are interested in learning about our students and have an interest in recruiting them. But the key factor that I think is different from a lot of career fairs is it's only going to be landmark students. We've had some folks reach out to us. Could we bring our high school students? And we're saying no, primarily because the goal is for our students to feel comfortable in the environment that they have people that they, their classmates and professors around them. Because for many students, this is a really daunting experience. There's a lot of stimuli, there's a lot expected of them. They're having to pitch their strengths, their skills and network. So we wanted to reduce as many stress factors as possible. Plus, we want the employers. We're doing a training in the morning before the career fair that myself and some of our corporate partners are doing. A gentleman from EY and a gentleman from soho Solutions. We are training the employers on how to navigate a career fair like this and how best to work with our students. So not to mention not just the career fair, but if they decide to interview and hire and promote them, what are the best ways to do that? So it's taking a very different approach, but primarily to send out the message that this is the effective way to hire and support not only the employer's growth and understanding of neurodivergence, but the students understanding of themselves in an environment like this.

[B]

I love that. Yeah, that sounds like a really affirming way to kind of handle this with a lot of intentionality and thoughtfulness of saying, hey, this is going to be specifically for students. We're going to try as hard as we can to minimize the sensory impact. And we're going to try really hard to ensure that employers understand why the sensory stuff is so overwhelming, why the students are going to be maybe overwhelmed in certain situations. I think like you said, it's daunting. Regardless of neurotype, neurology, like career fairs, figuring out next steps in your life, figuring out, like, where do I want to be professionally stuff is daunting as well. So I really like that you're doing it this way. And it sounds like a really supportive event and environment as well.

[C]

Yes. It's all about, you know, I use this term called success momentum. Right. That our students need. Many of them need little stepping stones of feeling successful. Majority are coming to us having had some pretty traumatic experiences in education and potentially doubting their ability to ever get a job. And I've seen that in meeting with students, there's a nervousness even when they take an assessment about what are your skills and Interests that they can interpret that in a way that, oh, boy, these are the jobs that I'm only going to be able to do. And I want them to understand this is a progression. Just like you go from being a freshman to a senior, your career is going to have that progression. But you have to continue to expose yourself, take these risks, because with the risks come a lot of benefits. So just helping them to realize you start with a campus internship. And what I love seeing as small as we are and the employers that we worked with and are continuing to recruit into our circle are very few. I can name two in my 10 years of being here that have not been successful placement. One was on the student's part that wasn't what they envisioned it to be, and one was on the employer's part that they didn't have the bandwidth to oversee in the midst of change. So that's what I think. Not all schools can do that. We're very lucky at Landmark. But I really want the employers to understand we know our students and our students know themselves. These fairs are an opportunity to break the myths that are out there that this population requires all this support or that they only have certain strengths in it. I mean, you should see the array of resumes I'm looking at right now as students are preparing their skills are across the board for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So just helping people to understand the. How impactful the neurodivergent population can be in a workplace.

[B]

Love that. Really do. It's a great mission. And I said this before, I think, when Christopher was on the podcast a couple months ago. I wish I had known about a college like Landmark when I was growing up because it would have been unbelievably helpful for me in so many ways instead of having that traditional, overwhelming college experience that I and so many people have had. So congrats on the work that y' all are doing. And I think that it is a wonderful, wonderful mission and certainly a unique one in the college and academic world. Any final takeaways for the audience who's listening before we wrap up?

[C]

I would just ask those listening today to. When I present, I always ask the audience whether how depending on even if they're very experienced in this realm or new to this realm, what assumptions, what biases do you might you have that you might not be aware that you have and. And you just check and that. And I will. Full disclosure. I had them myself, so I'm not throwing any stones. So I would love people to just consider, you know, what. What's preventing you from opening up your application process or making your business more accessible for individuals that are facing so many barriers. I mean, the unemployment rate of this population is abysmal and it doesn't need.

[B]

To be that way.

[C]

So just that kind of checking in. What's preventing me? And there's resources out there. Landmark is a resource. We provide trainings, there's resources. If you want to embark on this process and just, you know, consider accessing.

[B]

Them, I love that. It's a great takeaway for everyone listening. So, Jan, thank you so much for coming on and making the time and we're excited to have partnered with Landmark several times in the last year and wishing you a lot of success on the upcoming career fair as well and the rest of the academic year.

[C]

Thank you so much. It was great to talk to you.

[B]

To everyone listening to Divergent Conversations episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube like download, subscribe and share. And make sure to follow us on social media. See you next week.

[A]

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that that Neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.