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Divergent Conversations
Episode 131 (Season 4): Why ADHD Isn’t About Being Lazy or Unmotivated
00:39:02
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- [00:01]
A
We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.
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A
Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features so you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.
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B
If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the code DCPOD at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
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A
And I'm Dr. Neff.
- [01:18]
B
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. All right everyone. So as we continue to kind of break apart some of these myths and deconstruct them, today is about ADHD just means that you're lazy and unmotivated. Megan, Anna, what comes up for you when you hear that?
- [01:55]
A
That is. Yeah, that is such a common trope of adhd. I, I think it's one of the reasons I had a hard time seeing myself as ADHD is because that I wouldn't. I struggle, but I wouldn't describe my struggles in those words. Unmotivated doesn't, doesn't quite capture my energy and I'm constantly working so I, I could look at parts of my life and might use the L word and say I'm lazy there. But yeah, these words aren't words I've connected with, which is one of the reasons it was so hard to see myself as adhd.
- [02:34]
B
Yeah, you've mentioned before on here that it was actually harder to see yourself as ADHD than autistic. And I had reverse experience. So I always find that fascinating when we are dhd. Yeah, the lazy, unmotiv, unmotivated piece. It sinks in for me sometimes. And I think it sinks in when I crash. Like when I'm having a burnout episode or I'm just like low energy, I immediately start to think like, oh, man, I am so lazy. I'm never motivated to do anything. Another part of it is like, you never finish what you start type of mentality.
- [03:14]
A
Yes, I do relate to that one. Yeah, yeah.
- [03:17]
B
And in reality, as we've talked about, like the interest based nervous system on here, and we talk about following your energy and your passion and obviously giving yourself time to rest. But who has that? I've realized, like, okay, you are certainly not lazy or unmotivated.
- [03:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So there's. But. So, yeah, I don't relate to this idea, but I also know a lot of ADHDers do relate to this experience. And that's. I think I feel like shame becomes. I mean, I think shame's important when we're talking about either autism or adhd. But I just, I feel like every time I talk about adhd, I talk about shame because these are, these do tend to be the messages that we internalize. And it comes with so much, so much shame. And I think I have similar narratives. They're slightly different. It's like, I would say mine is like, damn it, why can't I prioritize? Like, how come I can work for 14 hours but I cannot? Like, okay, classic example. I finally, with the encouragement of my spouse, finally decided to do an ADHD medication trial. And do you want to guess how long it took from getting the prescription to logging back into my account to just order the pills?
- [04:41]
B
Okay, Is it over. Under 30 days?
- [04:44]
A
It's under 30 days.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because I. Because I had to. Because there's another medication that I absolutely rely on. And I was, I had to re up those. And so that urgency of that got me logged in.
- [04:59]
B
Okay, how long did it take?
- [05:01]
A
21 days. But it did, it took. It. It was because I absolutely needed the other medication that I only had five days left on that I was like, okay, well, I've got to try to. I absolutely need that medicine. So. And then I logged in and I was like, there's some irony of the ADHD medication maybe would help me order the ADHD medication.
- [05:23]
B
And I think that what you just said is going to be so relatable for so many people listening of like needing that urgency. Right? Like having it be last minute or something else that creates that pressure to finally do the thing that feels like we don't quote Unquote, have the motivation to do. And couple that with, like, maybe some RSD thrown in the mix when we're talking about the shame component. And it's a mind, I often think, like, who listens to me and the things that I say or, like, the advice that I give or the encouragement or the coaching. Because, like, so often, I don't even know if I put shampoo in my hair when I'm showering, and I have to, like, say it out loud multiple times and be like, I'm putting shampoo in my hair, and then I'll do it, but then five minutes later, I'll be like, did I put shampoo in my hair? And then I'll do it again.
- [06:16]
A
I was gonna say, that's a really good working memory hack that. That's. I've heard other people talk about that when they start, like, narrating externally, like, I am doing this thing. I'm taking my medicine, but actually, it sounds like it's not that helpful for you.
- [06:30]
B
I always think about it, like, okay, if. If my executive functioning is really struggling. And I can tell, because I feel so scattered, and I'm doing several different things, but I'm not doing all of them to completion. That's when I will start using hacks like that. But they don't work for me. I just convince myself that they are going to. So that's even like, walking out into the kitchen and being like, okay, you're doing this thing, and then immediately going to write it down, forgetting to write it down, moving on to something else, then standing there, like, with this vacant expression of, like, what was I doing? And it takes hours for it to come back to me.
- [07:12]
A
That is the thing is, a lot of the ADHD hacks take energy. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:20]
B
Another one for me is I lose my TV remote in my bed all the time, and I even say out loud where I'm putting it. If I'm like, I'm putting my remote to the right of my head, and then I'll be, like, frantically patting down my blanket and, like, shaking it in the air, and Ariel will look at me and be like, it's right next to your head where you said it would be. And I was like, okay, thanks.
- [07:44]
A
Oh, my gosh. I. I lose that stuff all the time. My earbuds, my phone, and. And it'll find it in the most random place, and. And I'll just be like, why? Why? Why is that there?
- [07:56]
B
Yeah. And this is a good, like, for me as an outsider, like, looking at it. When I'm around other people, these are things that I sometimes pick up on of behaviors that are happening that indicates to me like immediately like, oh, this person's adhd. When I was in Italy a couple years ago looking for that event for my summit woman who was showing us around every day. Her name was Ferida. Very nice woman. But she would be. She's the most scattered human. And we'd be driving down the road and she'd say like, oh my God, I don't have my phone with me. We had just went into like seven different locations and venues. And she would be like, I know it's on a windowsill in the Palazzo in one of the 32 rooms. And then we'd have to turn around, start all over, look for her phone. She would find it and then we'd move on. And throughout that process, I would be like, Farida, do you have. You have your phone? And I feel like I over accommodate that way for my wife's ADHD a lot. Where I'm like, did you book this appointment? Did you put this in your calendar? And she's like, leave me the fuck alone. But then she'll be like, can you help me put that into my calendar?
- [09:06]
A
Well, and this is that dynamic that often happens in ADHD couples. I know it's happened in my relationship, which we've started talking about more, which is the parentification of especially when one is one partner is an adhd.
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B
Right.
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A
Is there can be this dynamic of the non ADHD partner feeling like the parent and then the ADHD one feeling like the kid. That's like kind of a hard romantic dynamic too.
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B
Should write a romantic novel about this experience. Yeah.
- [09:37]
A
I am curious for the. I mean you're in an ADHD ADHD relationship. I am curious what the dynamics like there, if that still happens, but like in different, different domains. Because ADHD can show up in different ways. Like sounds like your wife is more scattered than you are. But there's probably ways your ADHD shows up that might be different than hers.
- [09:57]
B
Oh, for sure. We're actually going to make some videos about my office versus her office, her car versus my car, her side of the closet versus my side. My. That's where my autistic side really shows up. Is like, yeah, it's very structured, very orderly.
- [10:12]
A
So that's interesting. This is where I would have more shame based narratives. I was saying I don't necessarily relate to the lazy, unmotivated, but chaotic. Messy. Gross. Definitely gross. And then struggling with prioritization because and when I did, there's different, like, EF quizzes out there and assessments. And when I did it, the area I struggle the most is organization, which creates so much stress in my life, both digitally and physically.
- [10:44]
B
Yeah.
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A
And so it is. It's the. I can't get motivated for the life tasks. I can get very motivated for work tasks. But lifeing, oh my goodness, like, that's where I'm like, I feel like a kid or I feel like an inept adult.
- [11:01]
B
Sure.
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A
And then there's that. It's kind of like the spiky profile of people will look at me and they'll be like, well, you're a published author, you have a doctorate. It's like, yeah, I can do that. But like, please don't ask me the last time I changed my sheets. I'll be very embarrassed.
- [11:18]
B
That's such a good example. Honestly, like, it's so true. And that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Is like the behind the scenes a lot of the time, especially if you, okay, maybe your PhD and your research and your book and your creation for neurodivergent insights. But it sounds like because you are really interested in those things, really passionate about those things, it's a lot easier to get up for those things, to put your energy into them.
- [11:44]
A
Which is why like, ADHD really is more of an inconsistency in motivation, not a lack of motivation. And that's what like parents cannot understand in kids or partners in each other or us and ourselves of like, well, how can you have energy to go do that thing, but you can't do your chores or you have energy to go do that thing, but not this thing. And that, that's again, that's where a lot of my shame based narratives come from, is like, how can you do this? But you can't take eight minutes out of your day to do this really simple workout on this equipment that was really expensive that I bought. Cause I was like, this will be the thing that fixes me. Which is also a very ADHD thing.
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B
Look at my peloton that is collecting dust. Yeah.
- [12:23]
A
Yes. Mine is also a bike. It's a Carol bike, which gives like hit restricted hit training, which I got during my cr, like some of my health stuff. Of like, okay, I can do this 8 minute workout a day. My body can do that. My body actually can. My ADHD though, can not.
- [12:42]
B
Yeah. Is yours collecting? Like, is yours a closet? Basically? Because I see some stuff hanging on ours and I'm like, yeah, what? What is this actually doing here? But that. That's such a good point. And I think about that a lot. Where I'm sitting in the darkness of my own home, where I am most of my life, and I'm working on something, and I feel really creative and really inspired. And the time goes by and I'm like, damn, that was like six hours. Or that was like a couple of hours of doing whatever. I'm in chronic pain all the time. It would take 10 minutes to probably start my day with some stretching or something light. And I just. I can't bring myself to do it. And that creates such a shame response where it's like, how did you just write X amount of words for your book? But you can't Even, like, dedicate 10 minutes to making your body feel better.
- [13:32]
A
Oh, my gosh. Same. I mean, so I've had this chronic, like, hip, like hip pelvic pain since the. Since my last childbirth. And my youngest just turned 11. So that's a lot of years. And I. I've, you know, finally found a chiropractor that has actually helped reduce the pain. But there are stretches I could do daily that would be so helpful. It would. It would literally take 30 seconds. 30 seconds. She even taught me how to do one in my chair. I have a really good chiropractor. She was like, well, if you're in your chair a lot, just adapt it and do it this way. Yeah. Why is it so hard to do these 30 second things?
- [14:12]
B
It's amazing when we, like, zoom out, right? Because if you're it, like a comparison and comparative analysis, you're like, ooh, I just made this course for my business. And that is really exhilarating. And it took so much mental energy, but it was, it was really fun. Or it took. I was really creative. And then you're like, but I can't. I can't put the laundry away. I can't, like, do the dishes.
- [14:34]
A
It's also, and this isn't true, but in my mind it's like, well, it only affects me.
- [14:39]
B
Right?
- [14:40]
A
Right. So, like, if I'm in pain, that only affects me. But things like, like, I literally just worked on getting the course up this weekend. So that was a fun analogy used. And I'm like, well, that affects me, but it also affects, like, my, you know, the health of my business. So it affects my team, it affects my kids. So there's more motivation for that versus if it's clean sheets or stretches that make me hurt less or getting to the doctor. It's Just my wellness. And that's. It's things that impact my wellness that I struggle to get motivated for, which is ridiculous. When I have a book called Self Care for Autistic People.
- [15:24]
B
Yes. I mean, I think it's funny, but I don't think it's ridiculous because I think so many of us are in that boat of, like, we can offer this support for other people, but we so, so much and so often struggle to do it for ourselves. I think I'm just gonna be honest to y' all listening who are mental health providers, but I think we struggle a lot to practice what we preach. It's a lot easier to take care of other people than it is to take care of ourselves. Sometimes we have narratives of, like, I'm not as deserving, it's not as important, it doesn't have as much impact. Like, there's so many internal narratives that come with that too, but I think that's a big part of it. And, yeah, I. I struggle so much with all this stuff, and it just seems trivial when we say it out loud, but it's so freaking hard.
- [16:10]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And this is why I sometimes say I'll be curious how this is received, that I sometimes feel bad for ADHDers who don't have the benefit of the autistic sidekick, because I do see how my autism sometimes helps ground some of this. I also see how my autism makes my ADHD harder. But I do see how the craving for routines, the special interest energy paired with ADHD hyperfocus, the. I think it provides a little bit of containment and grounding for some of this ADHD struggle in a way that if someone was just adhd, I feel like it can feel more untethered.
- [16:59]
B
Sure.
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A
That's just kind of an instinct I'm curious about. I don't have anything to point to.
- [17:06]
B
If you listen to that and relate to that, let us know, because I think you're. I would agree with you. I would imagine it's really hard to be just ADHD and not have the autistic side, like, helping with, like, routines and order and structure. And I. I always look at my autistic side as over accommodating for my ADHD side in a lot of ways. And that's probably what leads to such an intense amount of burnout, too. Like, the autistic side is working in overdrive to kind of, like, fill in all the gaps or, like, ensure that the roof isn't leaking. I almost look at that image of, like, patching the roof with, like, A million different things as the ADHD side is just like spinning around up there doing whatever it wants to do.
- [17:50]
A
This is, I mean, I've been talking and reflecting more on this in my essays this last year of my relationship to my autistic and ADHD parts and realizing like, I've got a lot more shame and a lot more resistance to my relationship to my adhd. Like, I tend to, and I'm trying to work to be kinder toward it, but I, I do, I tend to treat it kind of what you're describing as like this pesky, obnoxious teenager. And, and I know it's more than that. And so I'm like, like, wow, that's interesting. There's definitely internalized ableism, but also just maybe grief to work through in that. And that, yeah, ADHD is like kind of a nuisance. Which, which, like, yes, it is. That's like, if it's not a nuisance, then it's probably not adhd.
- [18:44]
B
Like, yeah, I mean, part of the reality. Yeah, some of you may not, but I agree with that. Hey everyone, it's Patrick, one half of Divergent Conversations. Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA and black, brown and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United States, Aetna and Med cost, as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our website@resilientmindcounseling.com and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisilientmindcounseling.com I think about. I am grateful for it though too, in, in a lot of ways, like I think the creativity side of me and just the ideas that I can generate oftentimes are connected to my ADHD side. And sometimes my impulsivity and risk taking has led to successes that I probably wouldn't have had because my autistic side would be like, that's too risky. Don't do that. Don't like leap without thinking about it. And the ADHD side wins that arm wrestling match and is like going to do it anyway. And then. Yeah, I mean, I owe a lot of my career to that.
- [20:54]
A
Yeah, no, I feel the same way of like, I am thankful for my adhd. Like my autism is thankful for my adhd. And they're like, the ADHD helps me get out of ruts and helps me kind of expand my world.
- [21:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
Okay. Here's a really hard question. You don't have to answer it. If you could only keep one, which one would you keep?
- [21:22]
B
That is a really good question, but it's also a really hard question. I, I think early on I would have said ADHD without a doubt. I think I felt more shameful about the autistic side when I was first diagnosed and I didn't understand myself very well. I think fast forwarding four years and enjoying the familiarity and the structures and the routines that I've built for myself, I, I really enjoy this like low impact life sometimes. But I also think the ADHD side propels me to travel more and I really like traveling. I don't know how to answer that.
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A
Yeah, it's really hard. And it's also hard to know, like, what'd you say?
- [22:09]
B
I think it depends on the day, sometimes the hour.
- [22:13]
A
Oh, yeah. I would answer it different daily. Yeah, for sure.
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B
Do you have a definitive of, like, I don't know.
- [22:24]
A
Wow. Yeah, it's, it's so hard. I mean, it is so hard. And first of all, I would want more data, so I'd want to have a day with just the autism and a day with just the adhd. And I also don't think it's probably that neat and tidy. So here's what's interesting. I thought, I didn't know how I was going to answer this. I thought I would answer, I'd want to keep the autism, but I actually wonder, so. So I feel torn. I love autistic culture and community and like most of my community is, well, it's Audi HD and I, I really love the special interest energy. I'm not sure how much that would be retained through ADHD passions, but I think, because, like, I say this a lot and it's true I feel so disabled by the sensory stuff. Like, that's the most disabling aspect of my autism, is the sensory. And I know ADHD alone can have sensory stuff. I do think it's less intense than what you see in autism, especially the combo. So today, as of today, I think I would keep the adhd partly. I would just want to know what that's like. Can I go in public and enjoy it? Can I have, like, what's my energy like? Because I, I already have so many executive functioning challenges. That. And chaos. I actually don't know. Yeah, I don't know how much my autism's actually helping reign in my executive functioning challenges, but I do know the sensory stuff makes everything so much worse. So I, I, my. If you ask me tomorrow, my answer might change, but right now, in this moment, I would be very curious to just keep the adhd. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, that feels weird to say.
- [24:30]
B
I, I, I, I relate a lot. You know, the sensory stuff is, is really debilitating to me.
- [24:39]
A
And. Oh, my gosh, what would it be like to intuitively pick up context that, because that's a distinctly autistic thing, I think it would be like, you know, in wizard of Oz, where it goes from black and white to color. Like, I kind of think the ability to actually perceive and experience context intuitively, not analytically, I think would be so interesting, and that would be so much less labor. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I think I'm keeping the adhd.
- [25:14]
B
Maybe this will help you work through some of your own shame of around your ADHD parts, acknowledging that you would rather keep the ADHD neurotype.
- [25:25]
A
Sorry, I interrupted you with my excitement on that discovery of the context. You were starting to say you agree with me.
- [25:32]
B
I mean, I definitely agree with you, but mainly the sensory piece. You know, the sensory piece for me is, is, is easily the most challenging of everything that I experience. And it is. Yeah, I, I, I, I fully relate to that. So I think that would be, that would be a really wonderful shift to not have to be so impacted by every single thing that I experience and encounter.
- [26:01]
A
Yeah. Okay. I just had a, I just started laughing because I just had a moment of. When we started recording, we were like, let's do a few episodes on adhd because we always talk about autism, and somehow we've made this ADHD episode about autism.
- [26:19]
B
You know, we are who we are.
- [26:22]
A
I think that's, I mean, even, even that. Right. Even in the fact that we keep Autism is always what we go back to as baseline. Yeah, that's Interesting.
- [26:36]
B
Yeah, it is interesting. I've had a difficult time writing my book because it's, like, supposed to be specifically about newly discovered autism into adulthood. And I'm like, how do I write this book without incorporating ADHD experience of everything in reality? I so often, like, anchor into the autistic experience. So it's interesting.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah. And I'm. The book I'm writing is the autistic ADHD combo. And so I'm like, okay, I've gotta go learn a lot more about adhd. I mean, I know a lot, but, like, I haven't done the same level of deep dive of ADHD alone as I have autism.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.
- [27:18]
A
I also feel sad as soon as I said I would. And again, the question was if you had to release one. I feel sadness. I feel both relief of thinking about not having sensory stuff and of, like, perceiving context. That sounds so nice. But I also feel sadness at the idea of releasing that. Yeah, I don't. I don't think. I. Like, I don't. If. Yeah, I had a friend asked me that, like, if, you know, if you had a pill and you could be non autistic, would you take it at the time? I said no. Most days it's no. There's definitely days where I'd be like, yeah, give me that pill. Yeah. But for the most part, I wouldn't change my neurology if I had the choice. Although. Yeah. How about you?
- [28:09]
B
I could get real dark with this right now.
- [28:12]
A
I know. I was like, am I saying that because that's the appropriate thing to say? I actually was just.
- [28:17]
B
I was like, yeah.
- [28:18]
A
How would I actually answer that if I'm not. If I'm not a publicly figuring autistic ADHD human? Because that's the. Like, you're. That's the appropriate response.
- [28:30]
B
I wouldn't change my neurology.
- [28:32]
A
Yeah.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah, I think.
- [28:35]
A
But there's days I would.
- [28:37]
B
There's a. This is a nuanced answer, I think for myself. I think about this a lot, actually. I don't know how dark I want to get with this right now. I think just saying out loud, warning wise, talking about death. I fully expect to die pretty early in my life. I've said that my entire life. When I hit 30, I was like, boom, I'm more than halfway done now. I'm about to turn 39 next week, and I feel really more than halfway done. I just feel like life is so hard all the time. Like, yeah, sensory wise, socially, energy wise, capacity wise. Overwhelm wise, chronic pain wise, chronic health wise. I'm like, I've joked around with you and said, like, I wish my brain was just in, like a robot dog or something, but in reality, like, my body hurts all the time. I'm not comfortable often, if ever. My brain is not comfortable often, if ever. So I think the answer would be like, I don't know any other existence, but if I could trade it sometimes I think the answer is absolutely yes, because I think so often that the existence is torturous and it's painful.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I, I really appreciate that honesty, Patrick, and, and I feel that too. And I, I, I do think, I think being affirming of this identity is making space for that complexity of, like, our existence can be really hard. And it's okay. Like, it's okay to not always love our autism or our ADHD and to fantasize or long for or be curious about a different experience.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My brain is like, now segue into. So ADHD are not lazy or unmotivated.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah. I also always thought I was going to die young, and I still do, partly. It's like, if this body feels like this at this age. So I'm 41 now. It's like, I don't, I can't imagine what it would feel like at 70, 80. But even before that, as a teenager, I was like, I'll.
- [31:24]
B
I'll.
- [31:25]
A
Yeah, I'll die by X. X number. So the fact I'm 41, it's like.
- [31:31]
B
Wow, I've lived sans in the hourglasser. You know, if that's the image, you know, it's. I think about that constantly, and I know we talk about this, but I think that's a common experience for a lot of autistic people.
- [31:46]
A
Yeah.
- [31:46]
B
Thinking about death and time and just thinking. And, you know, I'm just naming this because I know some of you might message me. This is not like a cry for help. It's more like an acknowledgment of, of that reality. And even the fantasy of disappearing is so often in my mind. But I think it's, again, to anyone who's listening, it's not saying that I'm actively working on that happening. It's just this, like, almost relief feeling of like, oof. It would be such relief to not have to deal with. With all of the things that you have to navigate and experience and filter out and put to the side or experience simultaneously and the demands that pile up. It just feels like relief sometimes to think about the Disappearance of, of self.
- [32:39]
A
And do you mean disappearance of self, like disappearance from the life you occupy or like, disappearance of existence?
- [32:47]
B
Yeah, I think existence. Right. Like, and it's not the desire to, to not exist, it's just the acknowledgment that it would be like, relieving simultaneously. I don't know, it's, it's a weird paradox, so.
- [33:01]
A
And part partly because I, I, we are so weird. Patrick. ADHD means you're not lazy. Here we are in the middle of like a very intense conversation around, around how life, how hard existence can be, and about how like the reality that is a reality that many of us live with, which is like the desire to not be here. And so sometimes I feel like talking vaguely about it is harder than talking directly about it. Um, one framework that has been so helpful for me, and I'm curious if this is kind of what you're describing or if this language is helpful. I mean, I'm sure you don't, you obviously know the language too. But in my training when I first learned about, okay, there's suicidal ideation, which is ideations around, or desires around wanting to unalive oneself. And then there's this thing called non suicidal morbid ideation, which is, if I didn't wake up tomorrow, that'd kind of be a relief or so it's, it's the, like, I would be okay. It's more of a, I'd be okay with non existence, which often points to, like, how overwhelming someone's life feels.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
Rather than an active.
- [34:28]
B
Precisely.
- [34:30]
A
Yeah. And I think the non suicidal morbid ideation is so common because we're burnt out, because we're over capacity, because we just want things to stop and we often don't have language for that. And I think it can be really scary to even bring up the fact that we're having these thoughts to therapists, to people in our lives. And so that's where that framework, it's like, it felt like a deep sigh of like, oh, there's a name for this. And this is what I'm experiencing.
- [35:01]
B
Yeah.
- [35:02]
A
Is that kind of what you're talking about?
- [35:05]
B
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I've said this before, but I've felt this way since I was like 5 or 6 years old. Like, I remember feeling this early on when I did not have language for it and I didn't understand why. I felt like the demands of being alive were so hard. Like the simple existence felt very demanding. So.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've, I think, connected on that of like, just this fantasy for demands to stop. Like the demands of having a body and like the nails that grow and then you need to trim them again and bellies that get hungry and then you need to feed them again. Like, it's so annoying.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah, it is. It is. Like we've said before, autistic bodies, 0 out of 10 do not recommend.
- [35:53]
A
And it gets back to the ADHD of like, these are all little daily maintenance tasks that we often struggle to get motivated to. To do.
- [36:02]
B
Yeah.
- [36:03]
A
And there's a lot of daily maintenance tasks and demands when you're in a body and moving through this world that need maintenance.
- [36:14]
B
Yep. So if you are an adhder, we see you, we. We hear you and understand that you're not lazy or unmotivated, and we understand why you can do such incredible things sometimes and then not be able to do, in quotes, the simplest of tasks and really beat the shit out of yourself mentally for that. So we just want to offer you that. That grace and compassion around that because it's not easy. You're not alone.
- [36:50]
A
Your. Your face. I'm like, there's a lot happening.
- [36:56]
B
You know, I'm time tracking too. So, like, I'm doing that thing. But like, in reality, I'm just like, damn, we got heavy. We were like, we're going to start light. Don't ever listen to us. You know, it's just. We never know where this is going to go. We're like, before we start recording, we're going to do a light episode today. We don't have energy. We're in heavy existential conversation. So thanks for the. Thanks for all the support and the listens and the. And the shares and, you know, we really do appreciate when you all share with us that this. Com. These conversations are impactful and relatable and supportive because I think that's what keeps us going in this platform is. Is just acknowledging that people feel seen and understood and affirmed and supported.
- [37:41]
A
So, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [37:48]
B
Okay, let's do the weird transition thing, which is like, hey, find us on the podcast platforms and YouTube on Fridays and make sure to check out our sponsor Jane app for healthcare and use Code DC Pod for two free months of your first couple of months on their medical records system. And we will see you next week.
- [38:17]
A
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season, we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that Neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources Freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's gonna be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to narrativeurgentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need resources, but if you do, they are there for you.