← Divergent Conversations
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A
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If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the code DCPOD at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
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A
And I'm Dr. Neff.
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B
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. And today we continue to kind of deconstruct some myths and commonly used expressions that can be quite frustrating within the autistic and ADHD spaces. For first and foremost, my one of my least favorites, everyone is a little bit autistic. And I know you and I are going to have differing perspectives on this conversation, which I kind of like.
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A
That's a good thing to model.
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B
It is a good thing to model.
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A
We can be friends and have different perspectives.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Has anyone. First of all, I'm curious, have you got, like, has someone said that to your face?
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B
Many times.
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A
Many times.
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B
Many times. Even other, other. I see it in therapist groups sometimes during discussion. I have had people say it directly to me when I've described, like, my autistic experience almost as this, like, placating it or like sympathizing like, don't, don't worry, everyone's a little autistic.
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A
Oh, so the idea is like, don't feel bad about being autistic because everyone's a little autistic.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Okay, let's start there that actually be interesting. Let's try to decode the intentions of, of why people say that and then. And then also the impact. So I don't want you to feel bad about yourself.
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B
Yep.
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A
And so I'm going to remind you that everyone's a little bit autistic, so you can relate a little bit to the other humans because they're a little bit autistic. Okay.
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B
Or you shouldn't. Maybe your struggles that you're describing or your, your traits that you're describing, you're kind of like blowing it out of proportion because everyone kind of experiences, you know.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. And that's again. Yeah. What do you think the intention of that comment is.
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B
In that context? I really do think it's just kind of like trying to. From their perspective, like, oh, don't. Don't be so hard on yourself. Or don't. Don't act as if these struggles are so significant because everyone has them. It's not that big of a deal. It's almost like tantalizing in a way of, like, calm down. It's like patting your head.
- [03:55]
A
So maybe it's their own discomfort with your distress and it's. And so they're wanting to then like, weave it into like all humans experience that, which. Okay, okay. And that. So one, I just finished a training on traumatic invalidation and the neurodivergent experience. And it's. The literature on traumatic invalidation is fascinating, but there's different degrees of invalidation. And so this is what I, I think would be like kind of an. Oh, shoot, the word just left. I had it in my head. But empathic, like an empathic miss or an empathic invalidation. That's not the exact word, but it's that it's kind of a level one invalidation where the person likely doesn't mean to invalidate. Oh, empathetic misattunement. That might be it. But because of how it's landing, that can be a very invalidating experience. And we get like, we do. We tend to get many of these and then it kind of becomes like death by a thousand splinters. Like, you don't look autistic. Everyone's a little autistic. So these would be empathic misattunements that a lot of us get when we start self disclosing.
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B
We get them a lot from people who are close to us too.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I think, like fam. We've talked about disclosure and you've kind of candidly talked about how you really have to be rooted in it and feel really secure in it to start talking about it openly because you don't know how disclosure will be received. Right. Once it comes out of your mouth or once you type it out, that's it's not for you to react to.
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A
And then if you're, if the responses you're getting is a lot of invalidation, especially if it's that. If it is a lot of that empathic misattunement, which can be confusing because it's like, wait, I think this person's trying to be kind to me. But also like, by saying things like, you don't look autistic, or, you know, everyone experiences these things, but it's so easily, we so easily start invalidating ourselves, especially because I think a lot of us tend to invalidate ourselves as baseline. So, yeah, unless we're really rooted in this diagnosis and feel confident on it, it can be such a mind. Mind split to be disclosing this and then to be getting and receiving and validating feedback.
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B
Yeah. Yep. I can actually think about, like, when I disclosed back in 2021, when I discovered this, I did get a lot of those comments of like, you don't look autistic or everyone is a little bit autistic. And I'm like, what does looking autistic mean? Like, what does that mean? I was talking about this the other day. You know, I might have talked to you about it. Like, how I, I didn't used to swing my arms when I walked, and coworkers told me I walked like a serial killer. And I never thought about how I walked. I just walked in my mind naturally. And then I realized, like, through assimilation and potentially, like, camouflaging, I am now, like, swinging my arms when I walk. Right. And then I was walking down the road the other day and I'm swinging my arms and I'm thinking to myself, I'm by myself. I'm like, am I swinging my arms because that's natural or am I swinging my arms because I've really gone deep in the masking of, like, now I have to fit in and, and present this way. So that's what comes to mind when I'm like, you don't look autistic.
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A
Did you, did you come to a conclusion of why you were swinging your arms?
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B
I have no definitive conclusion to this. I still swing my arms and I still think about it every time I walk, whether or not I'm doing it naturally or if it is because of those comments.
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A
And that's also interesting. People weren't saying, like, that you should swing your arms because you look autistic or you should smile because you look autistic. They were saying you look like a serial killer. So I think there's different descriptors. Like, I, I think I got. A lot of. You always look really serious. So people weren't telling me I looked autistic. But there. People did make comments about how serious my face was.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And they were, they were just using different descriptors. Right.
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B
And it's, it's like these little, like, microaggressions, you know, that people experience of. Why do you look so flat all the time? Why do you look so. Why are you so intense all the time?
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A
I would love just like a. A quick comeback of, like, because I'm autistic.
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B
Right. Oh, another T shirt idea. Write it down.
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A
Because I'm autistic.
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B
Yeah. No, seriously. But that, that's the. That's a lot of our experiences, right. Is like. And I even had this, like, unfortunate rupture with a. I'd say friend, I guess, who was making comments about, like, how many people are getting autism assessments right now in schools and how it was so blown out of proportion and that leads into, like, there's an autism epidemic conversation. And I'm like, you're a fucking school psychologist. What are you talking about? And social media plays a role in everything we're talking about. Right? Like, because people will see a reel or a clip of someone organizing their fidgets and someone who maybe is ocd. OCD is like, oh, I'm autistic now. So I think that plays a role in. Everyone's a little bit autistic or people who struggle socially. It's like a similar comparison of social anxiety and autism. Right. It's like, well, I also struggle in crowds and I also struggle in, like, these environments.
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A
Do you mean. So do you mean that you think more? I just want to make sure I'm tracking it right. More People are misidentifying as autistic because they're seeing, like, one trait of autism on social media. And that's what's. That's part of the. Everyone's a little autistic sometimes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
I especially see it with OCD and social anxiety. Like, those two specifically.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And obviously there's so much overlap as, as we talk about all the time. But I do think that plays a role in the whole, like, everyone has, like, autistic traits, which I know you're going to talk about in this episode.
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A
Yeah, well, we'll talk about that at some Point that's interesting because I've not heard you say that before. I think I've heard you lean more on the opposite of like, not being, like not being concerned about people self identifying on social media. Has that shifted for you?
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B
No, I. No. No. So I have zero problem with people self identifying and self identifying via social media as a catalyst whatsoever. I just think there's a comparison with similar struggles that can mirror some autistic experiences to some degree.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which can then lead to like the gen. General populace saying, like, see, everyone's a little bit autistic. I have zero problem with self identification. I just want to name that like very explicitly.
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A
I think that's because that's what. That's where I just. I wanted to like, help unpack that. But I also think if what I was hearing you say is true. I also do think that's true. But I think it's uncomfortable to say because self identification is so important because access to assessments so hard. But there probably are also some people, definitely not the majority, but who do connect to autistic people talking about autistic experiences, but for different reasons, like ocd, like social anxiety. I think this is my current theory and I might shift this at some point, but I'm learning a lot about this idea of context. It used to be called context blindness. Peter. I'm blanking on his last name. See, I just. This is why I need to prepare for things I want to talk about. I don't know the names actually. Can I look it up real quick?
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B
I actually found it. Peter Vermeuland.
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A
Yeah, yeah, Peter Vermeulen. So. And he has a new book about. It's more about the prediction map idea of like, our brains don't make predictions as well. Which actually connects to sensory experiencing and processing. It's really fascinating. Goodness gracious, where was I going with this? Oh, so it used to be called context blindness. That's not a very affirming term for many reasons. More commonly talked about now is like context sensitivity or Dr. Henderson talks about it as context insensitivity. But it's that idea that we do not intuitively pick up and perceive and experience context. We can analytically do it. And so there's a lot of interesting studies, like some of the classic theory of mind studies, which again, theory of mind's a controversial thing in our history. But one of the things they found in a lot of tests that look at things like context or theory of mind, autistic people can often get the right answer. And if we're given enough time, which again, we're doing it through a prefrontal cortex. Typically, if we're doing it, we're not just intuitively perceiving and experiencing. To me, if someone doesn't have context and sensitivity, to me, that's the like. Again, I really. This is a bold statement. That's the. Are you autistic or not? If you perceive. If you intuitively perceive context, I. I don't think you're autistic.
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B
Yeah. Okay. Can you break that down a little bit more as to why? Just for people who are listening and are like, I have no idea what that means.
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A
So it's the whole idea of. Right. So the classic idea of autism being about not picking up social cues. Right. So picking up context is the idea of, oh, goodness. Yeah. I feel like I want to, like, make notes to be able to synthesize this. Synthesize as well. But it's the idea of picking up what. Like, what is the social bid that's being done here? What is. Okay, well, I'll give an example. Let me give an example. I've probably used this one before, but this was a conversation with Donna Henderson where I asked her, like, what happens to your brain? And we've had her on before where she talks about what it's like to be adhd, but more autistic. Yeah. So I was like, what happens to you when someone asks what your favorite book is? And she. She was like, well, it would depend who was asking.
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B
Right.
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A
And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, well, if it's my neighbor, I would say, like, probably some fiction book. If it's a co worker, I would say a psychology book. And then I explained what would happen in my brain where I'm like, I'm thinking through all of the books I've ever read. And I'm like, give me more context. What bucket are we talking about? Are we talking about psychology? Social? Like, what kind of. What's. Give me. Give me a bucket to work with. And how. That would be a really hard question for me to try to answer. What's my favorite. For sure, for her, she's responding to the social context of. There is a social bid being made with her neighbor. It's not about, like, factually, what's your favorite book? And so there's a social context that's helping her brain to filter out what information to give her. And she just intuitively says a fiction book. That is not an analytical process for her. She's perceiving the social context. And it's like it creates the way I think about it is it creates a filter for what information is important to pay attention to when you don't have that. We're doing our bottom up processing. I'm hearing the question what's your favorite book? I'm not perceiving or experiencing the social context of we're in this, there's a social bid happening, we're in a dynamic and so I'm going to just answer it as factually and accurately as possible. So that would be an example of someone who has and is experiencing social context in a way that is filtering her brain what information to pay attention to intuitively, not analytically versus a bottom up process that doesn't have that context filter to help guide. Here's the information that's important to pay attention to here.
- [15:46]
B
I think you broke that down beautifully. It's a great example. Hey everyone, it's Patrick. One Half of Divergent Conversations Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA and black, Brown and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United, Aetna and Medcost, as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our website@resilientmindcounseling.com and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisilientmind counseling.com so and then you know, I'm even thinking about when we had Jennifer on, right? When we had like the Ask a neurotypical holistic episode. Same situation, right? Like what's your favorite book? She's going to be like, well, depending on who's asking, I might give this. I might just intuitively give this Answer. And I have these buckets and I place people in them naturally. And we're both sitting there like, what the fuck are you talking about? How do you. I think she used the term I just flow through life.
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A
Yeah. Because she has, she has the context perception or same thing of like, how you know, if you are, if you work in an office and it's okay, what do you talk about at the office? But then what if you have a social event.
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B
Yep.
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A
Like a social event at the office. What do you talk about knowing? Like, what is quote unquote, socially appropriate to talk about in different contexts? That's also part of picking up context. Many of us will analytically learn that. Like, and then that's what I call my Google Doc, like creating the rules. But it's not something that my body just like picks up and knows. And so all of those social norms, like, that's all like context. It's also like the flip side of it is where so Dr. Amara Brooks talks about same idea, but she talks about it or they talk about it as context independence, which is like, we are just us no matter what context we're in. Which I also like that way of framing it of. Because there's deep authenticity with it. So I like that way of thinking about it too. While also acknowledging life would be a lot easier if we were able to just like perceive and experience these things as we shifted through contexts.
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B
Absolutely. And going back to what you said about a workplace. Right. It's also why a lot of autistic people might consider colleagues and co workers and acquaintances, like very good friends, but not receive that in reciprocity when that person's like, we're just co workers. And you're like, oh, but I'm talking about all of these deep, important things with you in the workplace. It's like, yeah, well, that's, that doesn't work for me.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
So the context piece, obviously, huge, makes a lot of sense. So you would almost use that as like a delineation like over here or over here.
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A
I, yeah, like, I would, I, I would. So I would have a hard time diagnosing someone as autistic if that piece wasn't there.
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B
Right. Yeah.
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A
And it's connected to the bottom up processing. Like it's, that feels like a pretty core autistic piece of the experience.
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B
Sure. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So when again when that statement is used, okay, everyone is a little bit autistic, but you can naturally synthesize and understand context in these situations. Then it sounds like that would fall on the other side of the fence, like, yeah, everyone is a little bit autistic. Comment.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yeah, because it's like, well, if you're able to perceive context and get all that beautiful information that helps you just flow through life, then yeah, then no, you're not experiencing. Yeah. So I think what people are trying to say perhaps, but they don't even realize this is what they're trying to say, and this would be an accurate statement is everyone has autistic traits. Sure. Yeah. True.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But that's not, that is interesting. Okay, here's how you'd answer this. Everyone has autistic traits. Everyone's a little bit autistic. How are those different statements?
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B
Okay. As I rub some lotion on my tattoo, I, I internalize them very differently for some reason. I internalize like everyone has autistic traits as like, kind of like a. Yeah, that makes sense. We all, as humans throughout this like, spectrum and diversity of, of humanness, all exhibit different traits and we all have different traits in different environments and we, you know, those are impacted environmentally and socially and whatever else is going on neurologically even everyone is a little bit autistic. It kind of feels like you mentioned yesterday or a couple weeks ago whenever we were recording the importance of the words and that we use and the language that we use and, and just really owning that and like protecting it. Almost as if the word autistic stops meaning what it means and it becomes so much more generalized. Are, do we have disabling conditions? Are we, do we need accommodations? Like, are we really struggling the way that we're struggling? I think it takes some of that away. It kind of feels dismissive of the experience. Minimizing it. Does that make sense?
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A
Yeah, I agree. And that does kind of ruffle my feathers when that happens, both for myself, but also as a parent with some kids that have higher support needs than I do. Like, I, I do feel protective that that word continues to mean something.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
And it's not just like that. You're not just describing a personality.
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B
Right, Exactly. And that's where I think it leans into, is if we start saying and embracing everyone is a little bit autistic, we're almost looking at autism as personality related struggle in a way.
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A
And it's so much more. Right. It's the nervous, it's a brain body experience, it's the nervous system, it's the context piece, it's. It's the sensory piece, it's the co occurring health conditions. Yeah, it's.
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B
It's everything. It's everything.
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A
Everything.
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B
And I think that's. That's what really can be the most irritating or frustrating of when. When that statement is used. It's just, It's. For us, it's like, it's everything. And if it's not, if it doesn't impact you on every single, like, way that we're talking about, it feels really disrespectful to just say that.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So I think part of it, that statement, everyone's a little, little bit autistic. They are talking about the experience, right? Like a felt experience. Everyone's a little bit autistic. And I think that's why that statement is wrong. But we're saying everyone has autistic traits. Like, yeah, that's. That's accurate for sure. And autistic traits does not equal the autistic experience. Like, unless you have struggled to move through neuronormative spaces, either struggled because it literally can't hard to access, or. Or because you're like, bullied and victimized when you do, or because of burnout and masking. Like, unless that is part of your experience. I guess I'd also put that. I feel like that's also in the. If we're drawing a line that would be in the line of, like, are you autistic? Is like, Is moving through neuronormative spaces cause distress for you? I mean, if we're getting specific, you know, with the diagnostic criteria, it has to cause impact to functioning. And that could be emotional of, like the emotional turmoil of navigating our enormative spaces. But it's right if a person's not experiencing disability around it now, I mean, I guess we could get a little bit more nuanced if they're living in really ideal conditions where they're in an environment that is fully accommodated and it's therefore not disabling. But like, outside of creating the perfect ecosystem for an autistic person, if it's not disabling, that'd be another thing where it'd be hard to diagnose the autism.
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B
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, honestly. I think that's exactly it. So the context piece moving through neuronormative spaces, does it cause significant amounts of distress in area A, B, C? Yeah, I think that that encapsulates it. And again, I really do think that there is a very different response, at least for me. And it sounds like for you, of everyone is A little bit autistic over here. Everyone has autistic traits. Those feel very different to me. They just.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, should we get into the part where we might disagree a little bit?
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B
Sure.
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A
So this is. I agree. I think that comment. I wish people would stop making it. It's. It's an invalidating comment. When people say everyone's a little bit autistic, even if they're not trying to be invalidating, it just lands that way for most of us. The comeback to it has become the one I see a lot on social media is like, you either are autistic or you aren't. And I guess if we're talking about, again, the felt experience and we've just described some things that might draw that line that, that I guess I could kind of agree with that. But the part. The part where I'm like, oh, that doesn't feel literal enough for my brain is like, yep, everyone does have autistic traits. And, and if we were to make a pie chart and a gradient, we'd see people with a lot of autistic traits. This is. I actually see this a lot with ADHDers who have ADHD have a lot of autistic traits, but they can. They can perceive context, but it's like. But they're having a lot of, like, struggles with navigating neuronormative spaces because of the level of autistic traits. And so it's, well, what do we do with those folks, like, when they hear, well, you're either autistic or you're not. What if. What if you've got 80%, like, you know, what if that. You're so close to that threshold, but you're not. You're not quite there. And so that's where. I don't love that sentence. You either are or you aren't. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I think it's just a little bit too simplistic. And then that could be invalidating, I think, for people who perhaps identify with the broader autistic phenotype. And I know that even that idea of the broader autistic phenotype, some people see that as problematic. Cause they're like, well, that's just autistic people who mask. But I look at that and I'm like, well, maybe those are those people that have a lot of autistic traits but don't quite reach that threshold. So maybe it is helpful to have language for them. So I don't know. That's partly, I think, I'm being very literal with it, but that's why I don't love that sentence.
- [28:08]
B
I don't think this is, like, as controversial as you're saying when you. When you describe it like that. Because when we were talking the other day, I think we both had different reactions when we were talking about this statement. And you kind of went into that, but not in the context that you just gave. And I think when you say it like that, I'm like, yeah, that. That makes a lot of sense to me. So I don't have much disagreement to that. I. I do understand why people, especially with maybe more like medium or higher support needs, autistics who are like, stop trying to claim our fucking identities. Like, when you say it's, you're not. You know, when we use that black and white terminology of you are autistic or you're not. I think for a lot of people who openly struggle significantly more, they're like, you know, I can't speak for them, but I can understand why that would be a point of contention.
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A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Especially if it's disabling or it's not. Right. And we've talked about this, holding on to it as a disability, and I know there's different opinions on this. I think it's really important. And so, yeah, from that framework. Absolutely. I also agree with what you're saying of. It's important to have some black and white around that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So maybe I'm like, oh, go ahead.
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B
I just think it's about protection, you know, like, it's about, like, holding on to something that, although creates so much struggle, is just a part of who we are at our core. And I think it's hard to relinquish that too.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that gets back to the invalidation and minimizing. It's really minimizing when people say, or. Or even like, I. That happened a lot with my parenting too. If I was describing, like, how family holidays were hard or routine changes. I think, again, in an empathic misattunement, people may be trying to relate of like, oh, yeah, I think family vacations are hard for everyone. It's like, like, you don't understand the level. The level of what we're describing here.
- [30:27]
B
A great example. Yeah, exactly. Because it would be at its, like, face value. It's like, yeah, of course life's hard for everybody. It's like, yeah, it's hard for everybody. And I think there are, like, tiers of certain things that are significantly harder for, for some people.
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A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
So.
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A
So I wonder if an accurate response to that everyone's a little bit autistic, would be. Well, yeah, everyone has autistic traits, and the experience of being autistic is pretty distinct. And if a person's not disabled or if they're not struggling to navigate neuronormative spaces, then it can be harmful to say everyone's a bit autistic. Okay, that's way too wordy. That's not actually a good feedback, but something that captures like, yes, everyone has autistic traits, and this experience is a distinct experience that. That not everyone gets a little dose of.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, I don't have. Yeah, I think we came into this. Like, we might disagree on these things, but I don't really disagree with what you're saying. So it's a good breakdown of a common misconception and statement that is thrown around in a lot of spaces. So I think. I think that wraps that up.
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A
That's a wrap.
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B
Okay, I'm like, on to the next episode. Yeah.
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A
Onward and forward.
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B
Unless you have any final thoughts. But I think that was a good final thought.
- [32:04]
A
Yeah, no, I. I think. I feel like we can conclude this conversation.
- [32:09]
B
Patrick, we are the most awkward humans on planet Earth. And it's brought to you on all podcast platforms and YouTube every Friday by JN use code DC POD for two months off your service. See you next week. Bye.
- [32:33]
A
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.