← Divergent Conversations
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- [00:01]
Dr. Neff
We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.
- [00:23]
Patrick Cassell
From day one, you can expect unlimited customer support through onboarding that sets you up for Success and a 99.99% software reliab that ensures that Jane is always ready to start the day with you.
- [00:36]
Dr. Neff
Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features. So you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.
- [00:49]
Patrick Cassell
If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the code DCPOD at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
- [01:16]
Dr. Neff
And I'm Dr. Neff.
- [01:18]
Patrick Cassell
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. All right, everyone, welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Last week we covered everyone's a little bit autistic. Today we are going to cover everyone's a little bit ADHD or everyone's a little bit ADHD now. So, yeah, fascinating conversation because I think we are seeing more and more statements out in the world about neurodivergence in general. And we know that autism and ADHD dominates a lot of the conversation, but it is something that we definitely are seeing more and more of.
- [02:07]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. And that I see this a lot in clinical spaces that like, you know, yeah, everyone's ADHD now or, or anyone who's offering kind of a social critique of our society or social media or parenting. It's like, yeah, well, everyone's ADHD now, right?
- [02:28]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Because we have so much going on at all times. It's obviously like, it's easy for people's executive functionings to struggle. It's easy to feel distracted, it's easy to feel overwhelmed, it's easy to feel like, forgetful for interests to change. And yet I would not agree with that statement. That everyone is a little bit adhd.
- [02:50]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. And we're probably also getting less patient and more impulsive. Like, I. I was thinking the other day about how, like, do you remember as a kid. Okay, yeah. You're not that much younger than me. Did you ever, like, wait with a cassette player and, like, a little tape recorder and, like, listen to the radio waiting for your favorite song to come on so you could hit record?
- [03:11]
Patrick Cassell
Yes.
- [03:11]
Dr. Neff
Like, think about how much patience we needed just to listen to a song we liked. And now it's just like, let me go find it on Spotify. Like, immediate gratification is baked into our society in a way it never was before.
- [03:24]
Patrick Cassell
That's true. Immediate dopamine hits. Right. Like, at the touch of a button.
- [03:29]
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
- [03:29]
Patrick Cassell
I mean, think about rewinding VHS tapes. Like, having to rewatch a movie is awful when you rent it from Blockbuster and then you had to, like, rewind it, rip blockbuster. But, like, oh, it was awful.
- [03:41]
Dr. Neff
And you have to, like, leave your house to go get a movie. Like. Yeah. So I. So it is true that, like, distraction focus, like, impulsivity. So I know distraction focus are getting worse. I would guess impulsivity and patience is also going down.
- [03:57]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I think as we see, like, a deterioration of patience. Right. Because we live in a society that doesn't. That demands so much for us and is so overwhelming from all angles. If we're having, like, media consumption in general, that impulsivity would go way up, but also irritability would go way up as well. Even though I'm pointing down, I mean up. Because as patience goes as. As your executive functioning takes a hit, as you have to juggle more and more and more. Irritability.
- [04:25]
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
- [04:25]
Patrick Cassell
Spontaneity, impulsivity. Book the trip. Get out of here. My life for a week.
- [04:31]
Dr. Neff
Empathy is also going down. That's not connected to adhd, because empathy isn't an ADHD trait. But just. Yeah, there are ways that, like, society is shifting and in ways that overlap with ADHD traits, like distraction, focus, inhibition.
- [04:46]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [04:47]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Which is not the same thing as everyone is now adhd. It's like, yeah, more people are struggling with distraction and focus. And perhaps some of the things. Some of the ways we support ADHD might also support those folks, but that's not the same thing as being a little ADHD or everyone having ADHD now.
- [05:07]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And again, similarly, in my opinion, to the autism conversation that we had last week, it feels dismissive. I think it feels dismissive to those who are truly ADHDers who are struggling so much to figure out how to get through their day with their daily living and their executive functioning and their attention spans and their time perception. And they're like, what. What the hell? I'm trying so hard, and I don't believe that everyone else is experiencing this the same way.
- [05:39]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. It gets back to. It's. It's invalidating, it's minimizing when. When folks hear that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's. Yeah, you're just having the same experience of. As all humans. And part of the shame of that a lot of us carry is like, I can't. People like the other people. And so then when we hear, well, like, everyone's struggling with this, it's like, well, then why am I. Like, when I look at other people, why am I struggling more if everyone's supposedly struggling with ADHD now?
- [06:08]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, exactly. And then it. You really start to internalize that because then it's like, well, it's just gotta be me. I'm the. You know, I'm the only one.
- [06:19]
Dr. Neff
I want to have some, like, funny comebacks to that. Like, oh, you also have mold growing on your bathroom counter in a coffee cup that's been there for three weeks.
- [06:28]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. Is that still there, by the way?
- [06:30]
Dr. Neff
That was like, no, no, no. Once I found the mold, it grossed me out and I. I took care of it.
- [06:37]
Patrick Cassell
Or like, does everyone just have piles of laundry sitting in their, like, laundry room ready to be put away for weeks at a time? Or, you know, does everyone forget to take their ADHD medication, even though it's sitting right in front of them on their counter where they get their coffee every single morning?
- [06:53]
Dr. Neff
Mm.
- [06:57]
Patrick Cassell
You know, I think when we start to use these universal terms, it. I think for a lot of people, it helps them, like, normalize why they're struggling with whatever, when in reality, it's a much bigger mechanism at place. Right. Like, it's a lot easier to say everyone's a lot. Or a little ADHD now. It's a lot harder to deconstruct the fact that society is, like, crumbling around us and creating a situation where people are stressed at all freaking times.
- [07:24]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [07:27]
Patrick Cassell
Because, like, what do you do about that? That's the thing. It's like, I think it's easier to default to. Like, this is where we're at as a group of people opposed to, like, how do we change capitalism?
- [07:39]
Dr. Neff
How do we change society? It is an important question, though, because it. I mean, just feels even in our. In my. I feel like such an old person now, but in my 40 years, like, society, like, we're just moving away from, like, humanizing ways of being together for sure. And it's just. I just. And not to say that there's not been some. There's definitely been some positive changes in society as well, but. Yeah.
- [08:07]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, it's scary, honestly. It's scary that we are, like, we're gonna diverge so much, do the episode on ADHD and then diverge all over the place. It's scary to think about how much. How less often and frequent we are in contact with people and helping each other out communally supporting one another. And it's almost becoming very individualized as a society. Right. Like, where we are so separated and so siloed.
- [08:37]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. Especially with remote work, which, like, I love remote work.
- [08:43]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [08:44]
Dr. Neff
For obvious reasons, but definitely there's just so many, like, organic, like, micro moments that don't happen when you're not with people.
- [08:52]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [08:53]
Dr. Neff
And, yeah, it's interesting. I used to not do many team meetings because I have so much demand avoidance around meetings, but I started doing them. I started, like, properly treating my team like a team and not just like a bunch of freelance contractors. And whenever we meet, it's like there's generative ideas that come up that would not have come up if we were just. Because we use notion. If we're just, like, leaving texts for each other. There's something about being in a room, even a zoom room, thinking together that there's generativity. And so, yeah, that's one of the things we're losing as we get more and more in our silos.
- [09:33]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And I think going to your team meeting statement, it's good for ADHDers in A. In a sense of, like, body doubling, having those contacts and, like, having that opportunity. Because I know for myself, with my staff, we do a monthly team meeting. People groan about it sometimes because it's like, you know, why are we doing this? I can get through in 10, 15 minutes. But in reality, it's about the contact. And then, like you said, generative ideas that can come from just having contact, having. Having that space together, even though it's virtual, is super important. And my ADHD therapist love that because it's like, here's an accountability measure so that I can support myself with, like, body doubling or parallel, like, work together in general and just ensuring that I can stay on task because the tasks are piling up at all times.
- [10:20]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [10:23]
Patrick Cassell
So you did a really good job of drawing a line in the sand, so to speak. When we did the autism episode. So if we're saying everyone is a little bit ADHD or everyone's a little bit adhd, now, how do we break that down in a way where it's like, well, yeah, you might be experiencing ADHD traits, right? Or experiences, so to speak, or struggle areas, but you're. How do we, you know, really break that down in terms of a or nay?
- [10:47]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. So this, like, where I would go. And this is not language that it's always such a tricky. It's a paradox, right, of so talking about functional impairment. That's not the most neurodivergent affirming language. And also it is the experience of it as a disability that marks it as separate from someone who's experiencing an increase in focus or distraction. So I actually think it does matter to look at our functioning. And there is. So that one of the assessments that's often. Or. I think it's more of a screener that's often used when diagnosing adhd. It's the WAIS functional assessment. I might not have the full acronym in my head right now, but basically what it does is it looks at different domains of your life. So, like, social, your self concept is one of them, your risk. So, like safety risks around driving, work, school. And so it's looking at how much are these traits impacting your functioning. And I think. I think that becomes a really important piece of it to look at when it's, is this ADHD or is this ADHD traits? I also think the context matters. Like, is it part of baseline experience because it is a neurodevelopmental condition. Right? So it's. Is this part of. Always been part of your baseline experience so we can go back to childhood and see it, or is this something that has emerged as your context has shifted? Now, of course, if someone has a lot of compensation strategies or masking, we might not see the struggles until the stress exceeds kind of that person's capacity. And so you might not see a lot of the struggle. Like, in kids, you might not see it till middle school, till they're like, changing classes or. I know for many women, it's when we become moms, that that's when it becomes really apparent. Because all of a sudden, the stress of what we're holding, it's like the wheels come off the bus. But those are some of the things that I would put on the. If we're drawing a line, I'd put over here. What about you?
- [13:05]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, no, I would agree 100%. And I think that is a really important distinction and looking at it through that lens of like, how much impairment is going on in all of these different domains. Because straight traits and symptoms of any, you know, a lot of these struggles that we're mentioning can be exacerbated based on environmental conditions that have nothing to do with neurology. It's just the fact that like, life is really chaotic and really stressful. So when we're seeing an uptick in like distractibility and focus and spontaneity, slash impulsivity, executive functioning struggles, because you're juggling multiple jobs and trying to raise your kids again, that doesn't mean that you also have a neurodevelopmental condition. Right. Like our neurotype that meets ADHD criteria. Yeah, neurology is important in this and I think that's the piece that's missing.
- [14:08]
Dr. Neff
And I think like to continue off that undiagnosed ADHD is really dangerous. It's really dangerous in the sense that if it's undiagnosed and unsupported adhd, it will show, it'll often show up in mental health conditions, in substance use, in risk taking behavior that. Right. We have more car crashes, we have like. And so if someone's having distraction and focus issues, but it's like, it's not, you know, it's not a dangerous thing.
- [14:42]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [14:43]
Dr. Neff
Then that feels like a different experience. But yeah, undiagnosed ADHD is not something to mess with.
- [14:53]
Patrick Cassell
No, it's super dangerous. And that's a good point. I like that you use the car crash example because like, if you're having distraction and focus issues, that doesn't mean that you're gonna like dopamine, see, seek and weave in and out of traffic and speed up at times that you shouldn't or not pay attention to certain, like road signs or completely miss certain things that are happening around. You just might mean that you're like leisurely driving down the road and you're just out of it, you know, through the day. You're, you're struggling mentally, but there's a lot of impulsivity with the, with undiagnosed adhd. And there's a lot of unfortunate outcomes too. I mean, I know for myself that's what led me to an ADHD diagnosis was just impulsivity and, and just making really bad decisions and really honestly self destructing my own life, like, and imploding it.
- [15:39]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. And a lot of self medicating, A lot of unfortunate coping.
- [15:43]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [15:44]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:46]
Patrick Cassell
Always thinking the grass was Always greener, too. Always thinking that. I was always like, let's just move. Like, let's just leave.
- [15:53]
Dr. Neff
Oh, my gosh.
- [15:54]
Patrick Cassell
Oh, my God.
- [15:55]
Dr. Neff
Wait, I still do that. You stopped doing that.
- [15:58]
Patrick Cassell
I. I still do that, but I think it's more romanticizing now, like, opposed to. Like, this is really gonna change my exist. Like, everything is gonna change if I move to Seattle tomorrow. Like, it sounds like such a good idea. Let's look at houses. Like, let's put the plan in motion. And then it's like, what the are you doing? And that's.
- [16:16]
Dr. Neff
This is. Oh, my gosh. This is literally a conversation Luke and I have constantly. If he's like, I. He's like, I just feel like every couple years you want to completely change our lives. And, like, right as he's, like, getting settled, and I'm like, let's move. Let's change career. Let's. And yep, it is. It's like clockwork.
- [16:32]
Patrick Cassell
And just our partners, man. I mean, like, Ariel values security and stability so much, and the first couple years of our marriage, I was just like, all right, so I think that what we should do is I should take a job in Seattle and we should move to the Pacific Northwest. And I've checked out all of the things. It's going to be so much better for us. Like, the weather's going to be better and it's going to be fun. There's so much to do, great restaurants. Oh, we're in Seattle. My entire life will change. And she was just like, no, we are not. Like, I'm not uprooting my entire career so that we can move to Seattle, where we've only spent three days. Hey, everyone, it's Patrick, One half of Divergent Conversations. Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA and black, brown, and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity, and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment, and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial Insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United, Aetna and medcost as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our website@resilientmindcounseling.com and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisiliantmindcounseling.com.com.
- [18:35]
Dr. Neff
Whenever I, like, travel somewhere, I always get the desire to like, if I'm having a positive experience, move there because it's like, oh, I can see my life here. And you're right, it's that idealized life.
- [18:46]
Patrick Cassell
We've talked about romanticism on here so much with the ADHD experience. And yes, anytime I travel and it's like, oh look, look how enchanting this is. And I could be sitting in the square reading, writing, drinking wine in Spain, like doing whatever. Like life would be so much better. I mean, honestly, in some ways it probably would, but yeah, I've done that my entire life.
- [19:09]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Whenever I, I have this experience and whenever I move, when I move to a new house, it often is better because like, it's like a blank canvas and so it's easier to create some healthier habits. And then after about a couple months, I'm like, dang it, like, I followed myself here, like, my energy, it's the same me. And now this place has my energy all over it and my like, my unhelpful habits.
- [19:39]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We trick ourselves in thinking that it's going to be different and we pay the ADHD tax a lot of the time too.
- [19:49]
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
- [19:50]
Patrick Cassell
I mean, well, I can't tell you how many vacations, Airbnbs, hotels, flights, things that I've impulsively booked because it was going to make my life better temporarily because I was seeking dopamine so badly and I know for a fact that it ties in directly to my gambling addiction. Like, yeah, ADHD and my gambling addiction, they loved each other. They were like best friends.
- [20:13]
Dr. Neff
Oh, I'm sure. I mean, so much stimulus, so much dopamine. So much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:20]
Patrick Cassell
They've. Oh God. So looking back from that lens, it's like, damn. Well, what a, what a destructive path that, that I carved for, for so long.
- [20:30]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. I realized like my belly got a little bit uncomfortable saying that that undiagnosed and unsupported ADHD is dangerous or destructive. But like, I do feel, I do feel that.
- [20:42]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [20:44]
Dr. Neff
And I think, yeah, yeah, I. I've lived it. Yeah, so have I. So have I. And I. And I see it all the time. Of. And partly that is part of it, of, I think so much. So many of us. It's interesting, we talk a lot about late identified autism, but there's also this lost generation of ADHD adults. Again, especially, Especially women and genderqueer folks where it's like, oh, my goodness, there's things in my past I have so much shame on. And if I had known this, like, maybe not all of that would be different, but I could have done things differently. And I think there can be a lot of grief and shame in that. I know I have some of that. I definitely think there's things about my past that would have been different if I had support around the ADHD.
- [21:33]
Patrick Cassell
100%. Yeah. I have quite a few friends who have discovered their ADHD later in life who are probably in their 40s, late 40s now, and women specifically, and they're really having a hard time of making sense of it. Of, like, if I had only known and not been called, like, anxious or needy or clingy or been misdiagnosed with personality disorder or whichever, you know, whatever the diagnosis was. And it's. It's hard to watch people unpack that, you know, and have that grief about and the shame, the shame that comes with it. And the rsd.
- [22:07]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Or relationships that have ended. Like, I think that can be a really common. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:14]
Patrick Cassell
Pre discovery, like, I definitely tried to blow my marriage up the first year. Like, I was so reckless. I made so many bad, impulsive decisions. And honestly, like I said, that's how I ended up with an ADHD diagnosis because I worked at a crisis unit and the psychiatrist on staff was talking to me one day, so I was reading books on, like, self help for divorce. It was so weird. I'd go in and be like, you're gonna round today. And he would just be like, what do you think we should do? I'm like, I don't know. But anyway, I was telling him about, like, grass is always greener, always looking for the next thing, always, like, chasing something that doesn't exist. And he's like, dude, go get an ADHD evaluation. You need to do it immediately. And I was like, okay. And yeah, the rest is history.
- [22:59]
Dr. Neff
That's so interesting because the restlessness was showing up.
- [23:05]
Patrick Cassell
Acting all parts of my life. Yeah. Really?
- [23:08]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:12]
Patrick Cassell
And yeah, I know we've talked about this, but for me, that diagnosis, like, that discovery didn't really make like. I was like, okay, this makes sense, like, why I do the things that I do. And then I just kind of left it at that. I would never really deep dove it. I never really thought much about it. I think, you know, another misconception that we might talk about in this series is like, ADHD only impacts young white boys. You know, like. And so for me, that was my own ableism coming into play of, like, yeah, that makes sense. It's just like, that's what happens to young white boys. We are adhd.
- [23:48]
Dr. Neff
Oh, interesting.
- [23:50]
Patrick Cassell
And also that a lot more than.
- [23:53]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So you didn't get, like, curious about it because it was like, yeah, this is what happens to. Interesting.
- [23:59]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. Okay.
- [24:01]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, I had a similar experience in the sense that the first, like, neurodivergent condition to be discovered and diagnosed. Well, you don't diagnose neurodivergent conditions. That sentence got weird. The first thing that became aware in our family was when one of my children was diagnosed with adhd at age 6 or 7, and I just didn't get curious about it. I attributed it to. There were some complications at birth and complications that we know increase likelihood of adhd, so I attributed it to that. But I didn't think, like, I didn't go down the like, which parent did this child get it from? I read some like. Or I tried to read ADHD parenting books and couldn't get through them. Thank you, adhd. But I just didn't get curious about it. And then when we started talking about autism for the same child, that's when I got curious and I was, like, looking back, maybe it's partly because I was. I was just so overwhelmed. I think I had, like, a six and three year old at the time.
- [25:03]
Patrick Cassell
Sure.
- [25:04]
Dr. Neff
But it's interesting that I. It didn't trigger my curiosity either.
- [25:08]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I. Yeah, I don't know. You know, we spend so much time on this podcast talking about autism, and late in life, autism discovery. We don't spend a lot of time on adhd. We almost glance over it and I wonder why that is.
- [25:25]
Dr. Neff
I've wondered that too. Like, is it. Is it because it feels less formative for us? Is it because we have harder relationships to it? Is it a mix of both? Like, because I'm. Yeah, I'm curious about that too.
- [25:40]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [25:44]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. It's not become even in writing this book. Right. Like, it is. I struggle to get through ADHD books. I can read books on autism, but I get. I lose my focus on ADHD books.
- [25:56]
Patrick Cassell
It's.
- [25:57]
Dr. Neff
And I was like, it's not. Become a special interest in the same way that autism has.
- [26:02]
Patrick Cassell
And I just wonder why. And if you're listening and you had the same experience and your Audi hd, I'd love to know, because I don't. I don't understand why that feels that way to me. I've tried to unpack it. I've tried to think about, like, I do a lot of trainings for. For a lot of, like, group practices about autism and supporting autistic therapists and Audi HD therapists, but never specifically adhd, I think.
- [26:31]
Dr. Neff
Okay, I'm having a thought come to me as we're talking on this. I. Okay. I feel like ADHD doesn't make my autistic experience less in the sense that I don't feel like I don't belong in autistic spaces.
- [26:45]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [26:46]
Dr. Neff
But when I enter ADHD spaces, like spaces that are built by ADHDers designed for ADHDers, I don't feel like I fit or belong.
- [26:57]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [26:57]
Dr. Neff
And so I think that makes it harder for me to engage in, like, ADHD learning because I'm like, I don't see myself there. Like, there's something about the adhd, the addition of that to the autism, that it doesn't make it so that when I enter autistic spaces, I'm like, oh, I don't see myself here. But when I enter ADHD spaces because of the autism, I do experience that. And we've talked about that of, like.
- [27:21]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [27:22]
Dr. Neff
That it's easier for us to connect with autistic guests or autistic ADHD guests. It's hardest for us to connect with just ADHD guests.
- [27:30]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. Yep. I see that in my working relationships and friendships, too. Struggle more with, like, the cross neurotype friendship of ADHD and ADHD. Like, if I'm. Yeah, it's hard for me. Yeah, it's. It's something to continue to unpack, I suppose, but I definitely. I don't know. Do you feel like when you talk about your identity, you lead with autism? Like, I. I always think about, like, autistic. Being autistic is, like, the anchor or the foundation for me.
- [28:05]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. I think I do lead more with the autism.
- [28:08]
Patrick Cassell
So fascinating. I want to know if this is a common experience or if it's just unique. I don't know.
- [28:15]
Dr. Neff
It is. I mean, I. It's interesting. My kids disagree with one of my Kids disagrees with me, but I identify as being more autistic dominant than ADHD dominant, and I think you do too. So if, like I could. I actually can think of some of the people we've had on, like Jamie Roberts, who's been on this podcast before. I think of her as more ADHD dominant. And so if she had a podcast with someone who was like her, they'd probably have a very different podcast. And I wonder if they would end up talking about ADHD more. It's just for us, autism is more of our dominant leaning.
- [28:54]
Patrick Cassell
Makes sense. That makes sense. Well, back to.
- [28:59]
Dr. Neff
Back to adhd.
- [29:00]
Patrick Cassell
Back to adhd.
- [29:02]
Dr. Neff
So here is something that is a little bit trickier about ADHD than autism. Is that one thing that people will often, when I do interviews, people will often ask, well, is ADHD being underdiagnosed? And I'll say, well, it's tricky because it's being both over diagnosed and underdiagnosed. And so in some populations it is being over diagnosed and in some populations, like girls and women, it's being underdiagnosed. And so with autism, it's really. Because the process for getting an autism diagnosis is so, so rigorous, especially for children. I don't think autism's been over diagnosed by any means. But with adhd, it is a little bit more complicated because of that bit.
- [29:49]
Patrick Cassell
Right? Yeah, that's a great point. Makes a lot of sense. And I also think about like some of the people who are doing some of the diagnosing who sometimes can't parse it apart very well, like ADHD from other similar struggles or conditions.
- [30:07]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, especially trauma. Because trauma, especially if there's been complex trauma and then the, the impact that has on the brain, it's. Yeah, it's incredibly difficult to differentiate.
- [30:20]
Patrick Cassell
Makes a lot of sense. I. It's a lot to think about for me. Like, I want to think about this as I write this book too, to think about, like, I know how ADHD influences me, like my business ownership and my. A lot of the risks I've taken have definitely probably been when I'm more ADHD dominant in those spaces for whatever reason. But I really do anchor more into the autistic experience of like, sensory stuff. And I think it's the sensory piece. We talked about this the other day. It was like the sensory piece is so freaking hard. And I think that for me, unfortunately dictates everything that I do and everything that I think about.
- [31:05]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, same. Same.
- [31:07]
Patrick Cassell
Sucks.
- [31:09]
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Patrick Cassell
I was telling you that story about dinner last night. It just sucks sometimes.
- [31:17]
Dr. Neff
It makes our lives really small. Really small or really overwhelming? It's like. You choose.
- [31:27]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [31:29]
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
- [31:29]
Patrick Cassell
Can't be both at the same time.
- [31:32]
Dr. Neff
I am curious. Okay. I know we're not really doing interviews, but I am curious. I would be curious to hear the experience of someone who's mostly hyposensory of, like. Because I've always been curious how. Because I know it. It does impact their lives, but. But I want to understand it more of, like, what is the felt experience around if you're. If you're autistic and mostly you're hypo. Sensory, so that dulled experiencing you want.
- [32:01]
Patrick Cassell
Do you think there's a correlation between autistic people who are hyposensitive and being more extroverted?
- [32:11]
Dr. Neff
Hypo. I don't. I don't know that there necessarily would be.
- [32:17]
Patrick Cassell
Like, if you're.
- [32:17]
Dr. Neff
I think there would be a correlation between sensory seeking behavior.
- [32:21]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [32:22]
Dr. Neff
And extroversion potentially.
- [32:24]
Patrick Cassell
But.
- [32:24]
Dr. Neff
But I don't know that hyposensory would necessarily correlate to introversion or extroversion.
- [32:33]
Patrick Cassell
I would like to hear from some of y', all, if y' all have. If you end up leaning more on the hyposensitive side of things, sensory wise, because I know I'm hypersensitive to everything and anything.
- [32:49]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. How did we start talking about autism again?
- [32:56]
Patrick Cassell
I think we say this every time we do an episode. Sorry, y'. All. You know, there's a lot of great ADHD podcasts out there, so.
- [33:04]
Dr. Neff
We're not one of them.
- [33:05]
Patrick Cassell
We're not one of them.
- [33:07]
Dr. Neff
We're great for our Audi adhd. Oh, my gosh. Audi hdrs.
- [33:13]
Patrick Cassell
We love you all. But, yeah, I think that's where we lean more often, obviously. But, you know, I think it's one of those things when it's like your experience is your experience, and it's really hard sometimes to. To understand or at least put ourselves into other. Other existences. It's just hard, I think, for all people to do that.
- [33:32]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
- [33:35]
Patrick Cassell
I don't know. We are who we are. Thanks for listening to us. We appreciate it.
- [33:40]
Dr. Neff
I feel like we are. We are rapping.
- [33:43]
Patrick Cassell
I think so. I think so. So, yeah, again, thanks for listening. And you know where to find us on Fridays on all the platforms on YouTube. And make sure to download the Jane app for healthcare. If you're a medical or mental health professional, use code DC POD for two free months and we will see you next Friday. Bye.
- [34:09]
Dr. Neff
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season, we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that that Neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course that's gonna be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.