Episode 136: FLASHBACK — Autistic Burnout City: How Sensory Input Impacts Burnout

Summary

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Divergent Conversations

Episode 136: FLASHBACK — Autistic Burnout City: How Sensory Input Impacts Burnout

Release Date: December 12, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale

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Episode Overview

In this special “flashback” episode, Megan and Patrick revisit one of their listener-favorite discussions: how sensory experiences shape, intensify, and complicate autistic burnout. As two neurodivergent (AuDHD) clinicians and entrepreneurs, they dig into how understanding, tending to, and accommodating their sensory profiles has been transformative in burnout prevention and recovery. The conversation is candid, affirming, and often humorous—full of personal anecdotes, practical insights, and memorable metaphors for living at the intersection of autism, ADHD, and modern life stress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Experiencing Sensory Overload in Burnout [02:57–11:22]

• Patrick describes how, being in a period of burnout, his sensory system feels unbearably “fried”—he experiences everything intensely and carries a constant sense of tension:

  "It's like... the rubber band is just like stretching and stretching until it's about to snap."
  (Patrick, 03:48)

• Megan shares her version of this sensation as "a crushing sensation on [her] chest" that builds up, compelling her to funnel anxiety into compulsive productivity.

• Both hosts reflect on their tendencies as "emotion minimizers," often preferring to shut down rather than experience emotional meltdowns.

• They candidly discuss:

  • The longing for “complete and utter quiet and removal” during overwhelm (Patrick, 08:20).
  • How being unable to access this relief compounds stress.
  • The never-ending cycle of feeling behind on tasks and obligations:

    "I just feel so behind all the time. And I don't see a way to get out of that."
    (Megan, 09:06)

• Techniques described to manage overwhelm:

  • Brain-dumping and journaling anxious thoughts and to-dos for validation.
  • Realizing the list itself can be both helpful and overwhelming.

2. The Vicious AuDHD Burnout Cycle [11:22–16:48]

• They examine how ADHD impulsivity, executive function challenges, and autistic sensory sensitivities entangle into a unique burnout cycle for AuDHDers.

• Both admit to overcommitting (often thinking they’ll have more capacity "later"), and the trap of imagining relief “once I get through X…” which rarely materializes.

• The realization that “it’s never fine”:

  "It's never fine. Every time we clear it out and get to the next cycle, it is the same... We continue to perpetuate the same type of existence over and over again."
  (Patrick, 13:14)

• Megan shares a tip from her partner, Luke: Before accepting new obligations, “Ask yourself: If this was in two weeks, would I say yes?”

3. Creativity, Humor, and Friendship During Burnout [16:49–17:25]

• The duo riff about potential podcast merch inspired by their running gags (“It’s never fine” as a t-shirt).
• They recognize that connecting with another AuDHDer brings a sense of humor and creativity to otherwise painful topics—something not easily accessed alone.

4. Sensory Processing Fundamentals & Personal Discovery [17:54–24:02]

• The episode pivots to the workbook series structure: Each episode tackles a chapter and theme fundamental for burnout recovery.
• Megan emphasizes how understanding her own sensory profile post-diagnosis was transformative:

  "Understanding my sensory system, my sensory needs, getting curious about what's pleasurable... was one of the biggest things to come out of autistic discovery for me."
  (Megan, 19:28)

• Patrick admits that prior to self-discovery, he only thought about the “big five” senses—never proprioception or interoception.
• Both describe how their lived experiences (e.g., avoiding grocery stores at busy times, shutting down in crowds) only made sense in hindsight as sensory-driven.

5. How Sensory Needs Shape Everyday Life [24:02–30:04]

• Patrick shares about sensory hellscapes (like casinos): "Gambling addiction is sensory overload hell. It's intentionally, psychologically designed that way—flashing lights, people everywhere." (22:13)
• Megan recounts going years without realizing intense reactions to chemical smells, bright lights, and more were sensory-related, not just personal quirks or “being difficult.”
• Both reflect on how, lacking language or modeling for sensory experiences, they constructed narratives that painted themselves as “bad,” “unhappy,” or “contentment-impaired.”

6. The Subjectivity of Sensory Experiences [28:02–31:58]

• They wish for a Freaky Friday-style “body swap” to experience another’s sensory world.
• Both learned, often painfully, that what seems “normal” to them may be drastically different from others’ internal intensity.

7. Sensory Environment: If You Could Design Your Own Sanctuary [34:02–40:02]

• Each vividly describes their ideal sensory room:

  • Megan: Modern, clean, visually uncluttered with natural light, soft textures, greenery, cozy fireplace, coffee station, “soft, soft textures.”
  • Patrick: Dim, cool, akin to a hobbit hole or cave, absence of all smells, very quiet, full of baby animals (as long as they have no scent), and always with cold, carbonated drinks.

• Their divergent preferences reinforce that there’s “no one autistic sensory profile”—it’s deeply individual and context-dependent.

8. Why Understanding Your Sensory Profile Matters [40:41–44:47]

• Megan advocates for "getting to know your sensory profile" as one of the most vital self-care and burnout prevention strategies:

  "Knowing what drains you... that's a constant drain on the nervous system if we're in sensory dysregulation." (41:56)

• Many late-identified neurodivergent folks have “masked” or dissociated from these needs, accommodating by default rather than by choice.

• Both discuss small but powerful changes:

  • Switching to comfortable clothes as a first unmasking step.
  • Using checklists or resources (like those curated on Neurodivergent Insights) to facilitate sensory self-discovery.

• Embedding this awareness into life choices (clothing, workspaces, social engagements).

9. Sensory Subtypes & Nuances [44:47–49:22]

• Megan briefly explains:

  • Proprioception: Body awareness in space (e.g., seeking deep pressure with a bag on the lap).
  • Interoception: Sensing internal states, like hunger, thirst, and emotions (affecting things like alexithymia or not knowing you have to pee until it’s urgent).
  • Vestibular: Sensitivity to balance and movement (e.g., anxiety on escalators, frequent bruising).

• The “DJ board” metaphor: Each sensory system can have its own “level”—one might be hypersensitive to sound, but sensory-seeking with taste.

10. Practical Strategies & Resources [49:43–51:20]

• Megan suggests using:
  • Sensory checklists for discovering likes/dislikes.
  • Tools like "The Regulator 2.0" from Autism Level Up, which helps identify which sensations are energizing vs. calming.
• Example: Using music and beverages to regulate energy for work or decompress after a tough day.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's never fine. Every time we clear [the work] out, it's the same... we perpetuate the same type of existence over and over again."
  —Patrick, 13:14

• "If you get a request, ask yourself: If this was in two weeks, would I say yes?"
  —Megan (crediting Luke), 12:45

• "Understanding my sensory system [is] one of the biggest things to come out of autistic discovery for me."
  —Megan, 19:28

• "Gambling addiction is sensory overload hell—flashing lights, loud noises, people everywhere, smoke..."
  —Patrick, 22:13

• "My needs get to matter."
  —Megan, 42:42

• "Getting to know your sensory profile is a really important activity that you can explore now..."
  —Patrick, 42:53

• "If I was forced to pick five things for well-being as a neurodivergent, high control over my sensory environment would top the list."
  —Megan, 33:41

• "Sand in your feet at the beach is the worst feeling on planet earth... That’s why I hate beach vacations."
  —Patrick, 43:38

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sensory Overload & Burnout Narratives: 02:57–11:22
• AuDHD Burnout Cycle, Overcommitment: 11:22–16:48
• Friendship, Humor & Coping: 16:49–17:25
• Personal Discovery of Sensory Systems: 17:54–24:02
• Subjectivity & Social Construction: 28:02–31:58
• Ideal Sensory Sanctuary Descriptions: 34:02–40:02
• Sensory Profile Discovery & Practical Tools: 40:41–44:47
• Explaining Proprioception, Interoception, Vestibular: 44:47–49:22
• Checklists and Energy Management: 49:43–51:20

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Takeaways & Clinical Guidance

• Sensory needs are individual and ever-changing. There is no universal “autistic” or “ADHD” profile.
• Discovering and accommodating sensory preferences (and aversions) is essential in managing burnout and sustaining well-being.
• Unmasking can start with small, tangible changes: clothing, workspace, daily rituals.
• Therapists and clinicians need more training on sensory processing, as sensory dysregulation underpins much of autistic and ADHD-related distress.
• Peer connection and humor are powerful for reframing and surviving burnout.

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Resources Mentioned

• Neurodivergent Insights: Burnout Support – free and paid.
• Autism Level Up: Regulator 2.0 Tool
• Sensory Checklists (linked in show notes)

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If you haven’t listened to the episode, this summary captures both the practical insights and the emotionally honest, often witty dynamic that makes Divergent Conversations such a unique source of neurodivergent affirmation and learning.

Transcript

[A]

We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.

[B]

From day one, you can expect unlimited customer support through onboarding that sets you up for Success and a 99.99% software reliab that ensures that Jane is always ready to start the day with you.

[A]

Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features so you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.

[B]

If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the Code DC Pod at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.

[A]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[B]

And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone, it's Patrick from Divergent Conversations. Megan, Anna and I are embarking upon our seasonal break. It has been a long year for both of us, as it has for all of you. We've decided to take our end of the year break a little bit early and re release some of our favorite episodes from 2025. We really appreciate all of your support. We appreciate all of you who listen, download, share and continuously send us feedback. We really appreciate our sponsors, Landmark College and Jane App for Healthcare. You two have been in our corners basically the entire year. We will see you on the other side. We hope everyone has a healthy, safe, happy New Year. Foreign. Welcome back to our collection, which we are kind of calling Burnout City. A perfect perpetual sensory hellscape or something to that degree.

[A]

Well, I think that's the. I think that's the name of episode one. But then we built a really nice Burnout Recovery city in episode two. So maybe it's like Twin Cities or like Burnout. Like yeah, well we gotta workshop this a bit. But like Burnout Cities something.

[B]

Burnout Cities something. Hashtag the Something. But today we're gonna talk about sensory as a part of burnout recovery and prevention. And I will say, like, I was thinking about this before we started recording while I was sitting downstairs, like, killing time. And I just feel like my sensory system, because I am in burnout right now, is so fried. Like, I just feel everything so intensely right now. And it's like what I would describe as like this feeling, and I'm sure you can relate to it sometimes is like, you ever. That feeling in your chest where the rubber band is just like stretching and stretching and stretching and stretching and stretching. And then like everything, the tension that you're carrying feels so heavy and like, acute.

[A]

I don't. I don't think I'd describe it as a rubber band, but I do know it's like, to me, it's like a crushing sensation on my chest that builds and builds and builds. And that's when I'm like, I need to go work. Because it's typically. It's stress building. And the way I dig out of that is by digging out of my massive, massive, never ending to do list. So that's like my anxiety 100% funneled into my work. But yeah, so I do know that crushing feeling. But rubber band, that sounds almost more like expand, like.

[B]

Yeah, it's just like tension before it snaps. You know what I mean?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I don't. Yeah, but I can, like, visualize it.

[B]

Yeah, that's the way I'm just thinking about it is like, it feels like it's just like being pulled and pulled until it's like about to snap. And that's where everything. Go ahead.

[A]

I was just gonna. Is the snap the meltdown or the shutdown?

[B]

Yeah, and I don't really experience a lot of meltdown. So that's what scares me often with this stuff is like the intensity of it. It's like this wave and it's coming in so hard, and it's not like, not dissipating in a peaceful way.

[A]

That's. That is a terrible feeling. So I am much more comfortable with shutdown feelings than with amp up or meltdown feelings.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

So when I get free floating anxiety, it, like, I will start working really hard to like, try to get rid of it. Which sometimes, of course, makes it worse because it's like, how do I get rid of this feeling? And yeah, so there's this idea of being an emotion minimizer or an emotion maximizer. So an emotion minimizer would be someone who kind of more like deactivates their emotional system, maybe more enters into, like, hypoarousal type stuff. And then an emotion maximizer would, like, amplify emotions and more enter into, like, that stress, fight, flight stuff. I tend to be more of an emotion minimizer. And so when I am in my emotions and I would put. So, like, emotions are also sensory is the complex thing. Right. So when I am more in my meltdown, emotion maximizer, energy, it is very, very uncomfortable for me. Yeah, I don't do well with it.

[B]

I'm in that boat right now because I am also an emotion minimizer. And I feel much more comfortable going into that place of shut down and this feeling, because it feels like the meltdown is, like, right there. Like, it's like on. It's just right there on the other side on the verge of, like, collapse. That's what it feels like for me.

[A]

Does it feel like a sneeze that's stuck? Like, that's what comes to my head. It's like when it's like I have to sneeze, but I can't. And it's. But that's not quite it.

[B]

That's not quite it. But it feels like if I was on, like. Like things were like, teeter tottering and like you're on a seesaw, and the seesaw starts to really tip this way and it feels like everything's just about to fall off.

[A]

That's so. Is that when you. Because I know you, like, go to the rage room a bit. Is that when you'll go to the rage room?

[B]

Yeah, for a lot of reasons. But this is one of those times where I probably should book a visit.

[A]

It sounds like it. So you are specifically in that space today or like, specifically? You've been there for a while.

[B]

I think that I've been there gradually, but I think it's been intensifying. And I think it's been, like, rapidly intensifying. And today is the day that I have noticed it like, the most acutely. Acutely. Intensely. I just noticing that every little action, like I was kind of mentioning last week is starting to create, like, ripple effects of, like, frustration irritation. Like, you feel like you're dropping all the balls if you're juggling them. Like, and I just want to cry. And I never cry. Like, I never cry.

[A]

You don't? Yeah. You don't? Yeah, yeah. Do you have a sense and. Yeah, I'm curious about this. I'm also curious about this for myself. Do you have a sense of like. Do you know what you need when you're in that headspace.

[B]

In. In all. In all reality. Like, I need. I need complete and utter quiet and removal. I need. I really need, like, quiet and removal right now. And I don't have it. And that's. And I know I can't obtain it. I think that's another part of it psychologically is like, I know there is no quote unquote end in sight. Because what I really need is like off the grid type of experience for a bit. And I do not have that. Like, when the walls really start to feel like they're closing in, I don't know why I'm interlocking my fingers like that for that. For that purpose, but that. And I'm already in burnout. And it's like looking at the calendar and it's just like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I literally had this feeling earlier today. So I did a call on. We're just wrapping up a clear. Our spring clearing series. So we did a call on internalized Ableism and it was like, body double. So then we went off to do reflective exercises and I was really struggling. Cause I was like, I'm just. I'm so behind. I'm so behind. So I started journaling both on internalized Ableism. But then I'm like, I just feel so behind all the time. And I don't see a way to get out of that. So I just started listing all of the things I feel really overwhelmed by. And was that helpful? It. Well, it kind of was because then it like, inspired me to go write an email and ask. Ask for an extension on one of the things that was overwhelming me. Okay. But it. It is actually always, even as a kid, I would do that. Like, I'd pull out my, like, weekly journal and I would just brain dump. Here's all of the things because they just ping in my head, like, you've got to do this. You've got to do this. So on one hand it's helpful, and then on the other hand, like, when I look at the list, I'm like, I have not actually budgeted enough time to do everything.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So then it's. It's both helpful and it's both stressful.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was imagining. Because I do a lot of that as well. Because I almost need to clear it. You know, Like, I need to clear all the thoughts, all the room that this stuff is taking up in my head. Get it out there. And then when I look at it, I'm like, this is. It is a lot like, okay, so.

[A]

It'S validating because it's like, okay, yeah, this is a lot.

[B]

Yep, it is a lot.

[A]

Then it can also be overwhelming because it's like, well, shoot, I didn't budget enough time for all of this.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And like we mentioned last week, we're talking about these books that we're writing. Right. That have definitive states on them. And my world really, really, really feels like it is like closing in on itself. And I think that I'm just like, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Especially when there's a big project like that because it's not like a. It's not an easy close the loop on it. It's like this will be an open loop for a very long time and it's a very big project with a lot of pressure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

You do this trick to yourself where you're like, once I get through X.

[A]

Then life is all, yes, no, this is my problem. And this. So Luke will like try and help me with this a lot because I. This is why I over commit. Because I like, I. April, I had so many speaking things because it's autism, everything. And then I was like, well, when I get to May, but I forgot that I had. So I'm making a card deck self care for autistic people. And I was thinking it'd be a lighter lift because it's were taking some of the content from the book, but that was my May. But I had been like, well, when I get through April, I'll have so much time. But then it was like, oh no, my May was totally eaten up by that. And then I was like, well, when I get to June or to the summer, so I'll put things in my future, thinking I'm going to magically have time, but I never do. So one trick that Luke has been trying to instill into my brain, he's like, when you get a request, ask yourself, if this was in two weeks, would I say yes? Because if. If it's in the fall, I'll be like, oh yeah, because I'll be fine in the fall because I will have gotten through all these things. But the reality is I. I'm typically not fine. And so I am trying to get better about that. The like two weeks. If I was imagining doing this in two weeks, how would I feel? And if it stresses me out to listen to that.

[B]

Right. That's really smart, Luke. Thank you for that suggestion. You know, it's amazing how different brain types think about stuff like this so drastically differently because I think maybe it's like my adhd side that's like, yeah, let me get through this. It's going to be fine. And then like it'll open up space for more things and it'll be fine then too. And I'm like, it's never fine. It is never fine. And like that's the hard part about being in autistic burnout is the realization, clear as day, where it's like, it's just never fine. Like every time we clear it out and get to the next cycle, it is the same. It is more of the same because we continue to perpetuate the same type of existence over and over and over again.

[A]

Speaking of our like non existent March line, I feel like that should be a shirt too. Like it's never fine.

[B]

Patrick Xander, if you're listening, I need you to start collecting all of these ideas, thoughts, statements we've made that can turn into merge.

[A]

But yeah, no, and I think this, so this is interesting. If we were to look at the unique Audi ADHD burnout like this I think would be part of that unique cycle of, with the adhd, like we want to take on the new exciting thing partly because it gives us an energy boost and then we're over committing and then we've got all of the autistic sensitivities. So we've got the autistic burnout, we've got the executive functioning struggles, but we also have that ADHD impulsivity to over commit. So really I wish I could write a book. Okay, maybe in five years. The Audi ADHD burnout workbook. Because it is a different beast because of the mind loops we get pulled into around. Well, in the fall I'm going to have bandwidth for X, Y, Z, so I'm going to commit to it. And then.

[B]

Yeah, in the winter I'm going to have this restful hibernation season. But then you've run yourself into the fucking ground so intensely that you're a restful season. Albeit like somewhat restful. Right, Because I'm not getting off my couch. It's not restorative. And I'm like, that's what is always missing. And also I just want to hold you accountable to this. You are not working on this book or this workbook idea that you just named for the next two years. Take it off the table, take it off the list. Because I know what is going to happen if the wheels start going behind the scenes.

[A]

It actually won't in the sense that like I'm, I'm very oversaturated with writing at the Moment with, like, this new book. And then there are. I'm wanting to update workbooks I've already published that I'm like, oh, that's kind of cringey. I'd reword that. So I'm thankfully at a place like, I know, I know I'm over capacity when I'm like, oh, that's a cool workbook idea. And I have no. I. No interest in touching it.

[B]

Okay, good, good, good, good. We're just going to use this example as a. A public accountability measure just in case we hear anything differently coming out of.

[A]

No new workbooks. No, I do have, like, although I do have, like, five workbooks that are, like, half done. That there's part of me that's like, well, so, like, I have an ADHD burnout workbook that's half done, for example. And I. I should probably finish that because people ask about ADHD burnout all the time. Okay. We were going to talk about sensory stuff, and we've diverged. Which actually, I mean, I think that's part of it though, right? Is when we're emotionally overwhelmed or when we're cognitively overwhelmed. Like, that also, like, that is a sensory experience in and of itself. And then when we're sensory overwhelmed, we have less capacity to hold our emotions or to hold our cognitive overwhelm. So they all. They all dance together. It's a real fun party.

[B]

That's another T shirt idea. It's amazing how creative we are sometimes when we are also simultaneously very burnt out.

[A]

Yeah. And that, I mean, that's the generativity. Like, I don't think I'd be creative on my own, but, like, it's the connection to you, and that's part of that. You know, one of the things we've been talking so much about relationship and connection and community lately of. And. And I would never be able to laugh about burnout outside of, like, my conversation with you. Right. That's not something I can do on my own. I can't come up with some stupid ass city. Like, I mean, I could, but it just wouldn't be nearly as fun.

[B]

I shared some of that, like, with my group practice staff of joking around about what we were creating. Nobody thought it was funny.

[A]

I thought it was funny. Yeah.

[B]

I thought it was so funny. And I'm sure they'll have to listen to it to be like, yeah, that's way funnier. When it was in conversation, instead of you just texting, they're like, what the.

[A]

Yeah, you know, that does make sense. If someone just Texted that to me, I'd be like, yeah, burnout sucks. Why are you like.

[B]

That was basically all of the responses. I was like, none of you are any fun. So go back to.

[A]

You also have to. You also have to catch people. The right energy. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Friday the 13th wasn't the day, weirdly enough.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's the 13th. Okay. So sensory. So we're just okay for context to orient listeners. We are literally because we were looking for a low lift for this series, going through the autistic burnout workbook chapter by chapter, and that's deciding our episodes. For the record, I think there are many other chapters that could have been included in this workbook. These are just the things that I've found very fundamental in my work and in my work with neurodivergent people of, like, these are some of the things that support more resilience. So I feel like a broken record. I talk about sensory stuff all of the time. I think we're gonna do a sensory series at some point, but we wanna bring in some OTs. This is where I'm so thankful for occupational therapists in the world like Kelly Mailer's work has been really influential. A few others, because this is not something that mental health providers, we typically don't get training in this. But sensory, like, when our sensory system is dysregulated, we can't emotionally regulate, we can't regulate our focus. So it's so wild to me that there's therapists and we talk about autism and ADHD and we work with it, but without a sensory lens because you can't regulate emotions or our minds. Without this piece, it's huge. So this, to me, I don't know about you, Patrick, but for me, post discovery, understanding my sensory system, understanding my sensory profile, understanding my sensory needs, getting curious about what's pleasurable, what's soothing, what's what's irritating. This was, I would say, one of the biggest things to come out of an autistic discovery for me.

[B]

Yep, I would agree. I think that prior to it, I only knew there were. I only thought about senses with the big five. Never even thought about proprioception, interoception, never thought about.

[A]

I didn't know those words. Like, I would not have. I would have been like, what?

[B]

Yeah, so I. I didn't think about it. I just. I just knew as like a basic frame of reference that I had the ability to smell things, I had the ability to taste things. Like, I never thought about how impacted all of these systems. Are so regularly and how much energy I've had to put into building in accommodations in my life for all of the sensory sensitivities and all of the ways that I don't filter out sensory stimuli. Insert, you know. So like I never thought about it not a single second of my life.

[A]

Yeah, I like, it's weird in that in some ways I thought about it. It's just that I think I thought everyone else was having the same experience. So like I knew I would avoid the laundry aisle in the grocery store. I also would show up at the laundry store or sorry, the grocery store at 7am right when it opened so that I could like get through my grocery shopping as fast. Fast as I could. But I wouldn't have been able to tell you that's because of sensory reasons. I just would have been like, well, I like to get there and then get out before there's people.

[B]

Yeah. Which sure.

[A]

Or like oh, go ahead.

[B]

I was just agreeing with that. I mean I also want to avoid the people, but yes.

[A]

Yeah, well, well that's a sensory experience. Being around people. It's like there's that, that's one that's really hard for me is when there's a lot of visual things moving in my periphery. Like that's really over stimulating for me.

[B]

Yeah. So like some of the comedies I've sent you to watch clips of and.

[A]

You'Re like, I cannot. How do you do that? Like any of the comedies you send me, I get overwhelmed within like five seconds of playing it. Like I honestly don't understand how you watch that.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know either. I never thought about it before you said so.

[A]

Like it's loud and it's people are running and screaming. Like there's the one where people are running and screaming and then you really like what's his name? Will Pharaoh.

[B]

No, I don't really like. Well, I mean maybe back in the day. Yeah, sure.

[A]

And he to me is such a sense high. He's what I would call a high sensory person. Like I just can't take him in. I, I can appreciate that others find him funny, but that's that slapstick humor is like so over stimulating for me. Like give me some mellow, dark, like just dry humor and I'm there for it.

[B]

I love that too. I definitely probably prefer that. Okay, so prior to discovery. Yeah. My explanation for what you just said would have been like I just don't like people. And that would have been answer. Like I wouldn't have thought about how overwhelmed I Felt going in and out of the store or for any of the reasons. I also, you know, I talked openly. I talk openly about this on here and everywhere else. But like gambling addiction. Right. Is sensory overload hell. And it's intentionally and strategically and psychologically designed that way. Right. So like casino, for example, is sensory hell. Flashing lights, loud noises, people everywhere, smoke in the air from people smoking people. It's just. Yeah, sensory hell.

[A]

That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sensory hell that I was seeking out.

[A]

That you were seeking out all the.

[B]

Time and destroying myself with. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, all of this stuff was. Was stuff that I. I didn't even bat an eye. And to go even further, that we never talked about in my grad school program. Like, I don't remember a single conversation about sensory anything.

[A]

Yeah, no, other than, like when we talked about autism criteria. But even. Even then it wasn't like a deep understanding. Yeah, same same. Which. Which is wild given that therapists work with, like, emotions and regulation.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, it's such a huge part of the human experience and it influences everything. Like, it influences how we eat, it influences sex, it influences how we experience our emotions. Like, it influences everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I. I think part of what has strange for me is I definitely could have pinpointed stuff, but I just would have been. And maybe I would have. I. So I kind of identified with the highly sensitive person. Except I didn't, because a lot of the highly sensitive person stuff was like, likes hugs and affection. And I'm like, no, but the. But I was. I would just kind of laugh at it. I was like, well, yeah, if I see someone wearing striped shirts, I get an instant headache. If I'm around someone with cologne or perfume, I get an instant headache. If I'm around chemicals, I get an instant headache. So it's just like, I think I'm just sensitive to toxins, I guess, was my narrative around it. But I think that's what's wild to me. It's like I could literally pinpoint so much. I. It just, I couldn't make the connection to, oh, sensory processing.

[B]

Hey, everyone, it's Patrick. One half of Divergent Conversations. Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA plus and black, brown and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United, Aetna and Med cost as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our [e-mail] and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisilientmindcounseling.com yeah, I never had. I could never understand why smells like, especially food smells made me so uncomfortable to the point of shutdown. Like where I worked in a lot of restaurants, you know, in college and high school and just leaving those places or being in those moments. Like how much time did I spend dissociated because I was just in like sensory shutdown all of the time or relying on alcohol to get through said experience at all times?

[A]

Well, that goes back to like we only have our experience so we don't know that other people aren't in shutdown and we typically don't have language for it. And yeah, like as a little kid I remember I would like tug at my mom's hand and it would typically when we'd be in public and be like, mom, I feel like I'm in a dream. I feel like I'm in a dream. Like, do you feel like you're in a dream? And it's just that was the only language I've had since being a child is like, oh, the dream feelings come over me. And it always like I'd feel it with a lot of dread and when it would happen I'd get a lot of negative feelings around it. But there was no indication that other people weren't experiencing that as part of life.

[B]

And if we didn't have parents or caregivers who modeled any of this for us or, or understood it or talked about it, how would we really know that it was any different than anything else that anyone was experiencing? Like, I don't remember having that any of this stuff modeled to me or discussed or any of my sensitivities discussed openly. So I would have never known that everyone else in the world wasn't walking through world the same way or moving through the world the same way.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's the weird thing about being like a human and a subjective human is we only get our subjectivity. We don't get others. I have said since I was little, I've always said I just want to experience being in someone else's body, like, for a moment. And I think it's because on some level I understood that my experience was different, but I. But you literally can't get a reference point for sure. So that's always been my desire is like, I just want to, like, you know the, like, Freaky Friday movies where you, like, body swap? Like, I just want to experience someone else's existence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if it's just one minute.

[B]

Yep. I can relate a lot. And I always used to think as a kid, like, is everyone else's experience as intense as mine is? Like, their inner world is. Does it feel like this chaotic and disjointed and painful at all times? And I'm like 7 years old thinking about this stuff, but, like, was never communicating that because I didn't know how to. And it was. Yeah.

[A]

I remember having similar thoughts of. I was a pretty sad kid and wondering, like, if everyone felt those things. Like, yeah, I just. When you were talking, I had a fun moment of like, I wish we could freak you Friday for, like.

[B]

And if.

[A]

What it would be like for you to be in Megan Anna's experience and me to be in Patrick's. And I feel like we'd. I feel like I would be in your experience, and I would be like, no, thank you.

[B]

I was just. I think about my experience so often, how I wouldn't, like, want to wish this on my worst enemy. So I don't think you want. I don't think.

[A]

I don't think I want it either. And I don't think you want mine necessarily, but I don't think I want yours.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I actually think about that a lot. I'm like, man, I really wouldn't wish my experience was my worst enemy because, I don't know, it's just a lot. It's a lot to handle. So.

[A]

So. Okay. So we both had experience where sensory stuff was impacting us, but we don't have the language for it. Oh, well, one other thought, one part of my experience, because I didn't have language for it, I developed a lot of narratives around it. So for example, I would decide, I must not be content, like, with my family, because every time we'd go in public, I'd have this shutdown experience, and I'd have this idea of, like, looking forward to an event, getting to the event. It's a disappointment. And then when you don't have a narrative for it, it's really easy to create other narratives for it. Do you relate to that? Of, like, were there other narratives that. Now looking back, you're like, oh, that's probably not an accurate narrative. It's just, like, in that.

[B]

And I had, like, that identical experience, you know, where I would be excited for an event, or you were told you were supposed to be excited for the event, and I wouldn't be for whatever reason. And then I think the narrative becomes, like, I'm bad. I'm.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I hate. Yeah. Like, I hated my wedding. I hated my baby showers. And it's like, what kind of a. Especially as I think, as a. As a woman, like, there's so, like, those are events you're supposed to be excited about. So then it's like, what does it mean that I'm not. Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I would think. I would think a lot, like, can you ever be happy? Like, is there, like. And I. And I think that's why. That's, like, some of my close friends will, like, joke around with me about my personality and the way I react to things. But, like, sometimes that's like, a sensitive touch point of, like, Patrick's never happy, or he's always grumpy, or, like, he's always this. And it's like, huh. Yeah. I mean, man 1. Being friends with me must suck sometimes. And also, like.

[A]

But try being me.

[B]

Yeah. Just try this existence, you know? Like, yeah.

[A]

It is. Yeah. Yeah. It is a painful poke. Yeah. That and I. It comes from a place of empathy. When it comes up. It's not a poke, but that has come up in my marriage of, like, will I ever be content? Am I. Am I capable of that? And, yeah.

[B]

That'S a tough one.

[A]

What do you think? Are we capable of happiness, Patrick, or contentment? Like, happiness feels like too high of a bar.

[B]

Contentment feels really high, too. I feel like I can be. I can definitively say that I can be content in small doses and spurts, but can I have prolonged contentment and sustained contentment that I don't have an answer for?

[A]

And does it okay, for you? Does that connect to the sensory stuff we're talking about, or does that feel separate?

[B]

I think it is wildly impacted by the sensory stuff. Because you've mentioned on here, like the Goldilocks situation. Everything has to be just right. And I think about how much effort and energy has to go into things being just right and how much is also outside of your control in so many situations. Right. Like, so it's really hard to feel like there's a lot of optimism at times about things like being just right, so to speak. Because there's so many things outside of our control that impact our sensory systems.

[A]

And this is where, like, having, like, high control of our sensory environment, like, for. If. If I was forced to make a top five, like, well being for neurodivergent things, like, you get to have five things to design. Your well being, like, high controlled sensory environment would be in that top five list for me.

[B]

So if we're in like monotropic manner right now, what's the sensory environment like?

[A]

Ooh. I mean, I liked the nests that we co built. So in the room, the room would be very clean. Like, it's funny because it's the opposite of what my room is now because I'm very ADHD in my organization. Like, everything's a mess. If I flipped my camera around, you'd be like, like, it's a mess. So. But it'd be very, like, almost modern and like light colors. Like, I like whites and grays and clean and like bare walls and so there's not visual clutter. There's like, no visual clutter. There'd be greenery because my eyes, like, just feel restored when there's like, plants. So there'd be some, like, thoughtfully well crafted plants. There'd be like, wood that was really pleasant to look at. Okay. I just realized, I said like, modern and grays and then also wood. I can't make up my mind.

[B]

You can have hope. This is your world.

[A]

Okay. And there would be, um, There'd be some kind of like, coffee, whether it's an espresso machine or like an espresso machine. Something where I could make delicious coffee type beverages that would be like my stem drink. There'd be a fireplace that I could turn on. There'd be like faux fur slippers and a faux fur rug. Okay. The aesthetics of this room are all over the place. Modern, faux fur wood. But there'd be like, soft, soft textures and a really comfortable chair by the fire. There'd be really good books. The bed would just be amazing. Again with lots of soft textures. There'd be weight. The. The. Yeah. The temperature would be just right There. There'd be natural light coming in, be windows I could open for fresh air when I wanted. Yeah, that would be my room. What would your room be?

[B]

So Megan and Anna's five things was 30 things. And what would be my room? I like to think that I would be very content, like, living in an actual hobbit hole. Like, if I had a hole in, like, a hill and it had a round door that I could look at and I could just swing it open, and it was always less than. Always less than 69 degrees at all times. I need that at, like. I don't even want to think about it. I just want it to be the perfect temperature, which is often between 60 and 67. I would. There would be an absence of smells, so there would be zero smells. I wouldn't smell anything whatsoever. I would not smell food. I would not smell. I would not smell my animal. I wouldn't smell anything that would be gone. The lighting would be very dim. I would be very dark in there. I would not want it to be very bright and airy. I think that I would have been good surviving as a cave person at one point in time. And I think that I would want to have the ability to have, like, quiet space where I knew no matter what was happening around me, I could go into this space and it would be completely quiet. I would not have to hear anything. Yeah, I don't have much more.

[A]

I don't think we would visit each other very often. No.

[B]

That's why we can't swap experiences, though, because they're very different.

[A]

Um, but yeah, this is. Oh, go ahead.

[B]

I was thinking, like, you were even, like, thinking so far as to, like, footwear and things like that. Like, I. I would think, oh, beverages. That's what was on my mind. I would want some, like, definitely something that I can make cold brews at all times with. And I would also need some sort of carbonated beverage maker as well. So I could also have that beverage on hand all the time. I don't like hot beverages, so I don't want any hot beverages in my. My space whatsoever. Yeah, and then I think that would be it. Maybe my floor would just be full of, like, baby animals, and I could just lay on the floor and roll around on the floor with these baby animals at all times, and that would be also very amazing. But they could not smell like anything.

[A]

I have no interest in your world. This is another one where we didn't do, like, Team Patrick, Team Megan, Anna, like, who's. Who's. Whose manner do you want to go.

[B]

To whose wing of the guest house do you want to stay?

[A]

But I actually love how different they are because this is part of why. So part of what I talk about in the chapter and when I give talks is like the importance of getting to know your sensory profile. Because it's not like there's one autistic sensory profile or one ADHD profile where it's so unique, especially because we might be in know, hypersensitive in some systems and hyposensitive in others. So meaning we receive like extra input or we receive like it takes more of the signal to receive it. Like, so for me, I am pretty like with smells. Definitely with smells and taste and visual and sound. Sound is a huge sound is the biggest trigger for me for shutdown. I'm very hypersensitive and very tend to be sensory avoidant. Although I do like natural light. But then with taste, like, give me all the spice, give me all the crunch, give me like, I want, like, the more the better. So it's so like some metaphors I've heard. It's like a DJ board, which I like that. It's like you can be, you know, more sensory seeking in some, more sensory avoidant in others. And then of course, these can ebb and flow and other factors. But that's where it gets so complex, is there's no, like, if you're a therapist, you can't design like one ideal autistic client therapy room because it's. Every client's needs will be different. What makes it sensory friendly is sensory flexibility.

[B]

Right. And that's so huge. Yeah. Because if you walked into my therapy space and it was very dark and you were like, I really need.

[A]

Like, so. And it's interesting because for me it's more an emotional thing. And I. I've had this since I was a kid. But it's even when the clouds. Maybe it's because I live in Oregon. Like, if it's sunny and then the clouds come over the sun, I instantly get a wave of sadness. Like, for me there's just something about darkness that will instantly bring on sadness. So unless it matches. Like if I'm already sad, then I maybe want a dark environment because then I'm. It matches. But otherwise darkness just brings on a wave of sadness.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it does for so many people. But if the clouds came over the sun, for me I would be like, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Like, when I leave here from recording, I'm going to walk down the road to meet a friend for dinner. And I am hoping that the clouds cover the sun as I walk, actually. So fingers crossed.

[A]

Mm. You live in the wrong state.

[B]

I don't know what the right state would be, though, because Oregon, I can deal with the constant gloominess. Like, I do appreciate sun and in times, but, like, I don't want it to be hot. I just want to see the sun. So, for example, when I'm in Ireland and it's Sunny, but it's 60 out, it's great.

[A]

So I'm the same way. Yeah. Like, I. Colorado. Colorado has sun without it being hot.

[B]

Yeah. I've also been to Colorado where I was like, is the sun touching my. My face? Because it feels like you're so close due to elevation where, like, it's unbearable. But, yeah, So I do like that you made that comment that these preferences and sensitivity sensitivities differ for everyone. Again, this is not a one size fits all experience.

[A]

Yeah. So that's back to, like, the burnout and what people can do. I think getting to know your sensory profile is one of the biggest things, because then, you know, like, what does drain you? Because that's a constant drain on the nervous system. If we're in sensory dysregulation. And so. And then a lot of us, especially those of us identified later in life or even those identified in childhood, but if they were never trained around sensory stuff, like, a lot of us adapt by dissociating from our bodies. So getting to know, like, oh, this. This does feel good. Like, so for me, I. I didn't even know I was unmasking, but when I look back, the very first thing I did that I now realize was the first step in unmasking was to go through my clothes and get rid of the stuff that was uncomfortable because. Cause it was like, why. Why would I wear this?

[B]

Like, yeah.

[A]

And it was the first time that I was registering. This is uncomfortable for me. It's more uncomfortable for me than it is for other humans. And my needs get to matter.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, it's huge. So I think getting to know your sensory profile is a really important activity that, you know, you can really start to explore now and kind of get a sense of what you are seeking out, what you're avoiding. And I think that does ebb and flow at times as well. Like, there are times where I seek out certain sensations and avoid them in other contexts, and that can. That can change and shift as well. You want to know one sensory. Pure hell for me and for a lot of humans, sand in your feet at the beach is the worst feeling on planet Earth. I just cannot, I can't do it. I will wear socks and shoes on the beach. And this is why I hate beach vacations.

[A]

Well, I'm doing that in a couple days. I don't mind. I actually, I like the feeling of dry sand, but if it's wet sand and then it's sticking, that's the thing I can't do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, I actually like the sensation of walking on dry sand.

[B]

Yeah, I, I should rephrase that. I agree. 100. I hate like the fact that there are outdoor showers at beaches where it's like, oh, wash all this sand off of you. And I'm like, no, this is horrible. So, yeah, that just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My mind.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So for getting to know profiles, was there a way that you got to know your sensory profile? Was it just like by paying attention or.

[B]

Yeah, I think it was just paying more attention and, and getting a better understanding of what these senses mean, including interoception and proprioception. Because again, prior to discovery it and really, honestly following some of your content earlier on, I was like, I don't even know what this stuff means. Like, I felt like an idiot where I was like, I don't even know how to say that word.

[A]

Well, I'm not. You shouldn't learn from me when it comes to pronouncing any words.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean, I didn't know those words until I got into this space either. But like, with proprioception, that was really interesting. So that's like where our body is in space. And um, for me, like when I was in college and grad school, I'd always put my bag on my lap. Or even when I go to like doctors, they're like, do you want to hang up your bag? And I'm like, no, I want it on my lap. And it's like, I, I need the pressure and the weight. I need that proprioceptive input. Or even the beanies that I often wear. It's like, I do that for proprioceptive input. I didn't know that's why. But now it's like, oh. And so it's, it is cool to have to realize things that we maybe intuitively do. It's like, oh, there's actually a reason.

[B]

Yeah, I do those things instinctual, like accommodations. Right. Without understanding as to why. And that's why a lot of people will wear noise canceling headphones with nothing on them. Because like, proprioceptive input can be so soothing and sensory. Overwhelming spaces like grocery stores. And I think that for me, proprioceptive understanding and awareness was huge. And sometimes when I really do need that proprioceptive input, Ariel kind of knows, my wife kind of knows. She'll be like, do you need me to smush your body back into your body? And I'll be like, yes. And I, we didn't know this until like a couple of years ago, but now she will just like lay on top of me with all of her weight and like, I'm like, okay. And that's where like those, those like weighted stuffed animals can be really helpful. You know, as a 38 year old man, I do have a weighted sloth that is on my dresser next to me. And that was not something I would have had before a couple of years ago. And then interceptive awareness, like, I think that's a hard one for people to understand sometimes is. So do you want to go over kind of briefly what that means?

[A]

Yeah, so that's basically registering what's happening on the inside of our bodies. So it's things like hunger, thirst, emotions, pain, the urge to pee, the urge to poo. Like, so things like constipation can be more common. And it's also. Well, yeah, if you're not getting the urge, right. Or, or for like kids, it's. They don't know they have to pee until they have to pee. And then if they're having to like raise their hand and allow the teacher to dismiss them, like, so that would be. Speaking of accommodations, like ability to go to the bathroom when you feel the urge because you don't always get that forward urge. So that's also why alexithymia can be more common for us because if we're having kind of like dulled registry and then with interoceptive awareness, it's like these signals could be dulled, the signals could be intensified, signals could be just hard to differentiate. So it could be hard to know, like, is my stomach hurting because I'm anxious or because I'm hungry or because I'm digesting something.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. And that I think leads to a lot of that kind of alienation of self. But also again, it makes it really hard to know our needs. Or like I've seen folks where, you know, they have chronic headaches because they're not drinking enough water because they're not getting thirst signals.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it's, there's so many implications with the interoceptive awareness system.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And then when we talk about Vestibular. And I think that's one for people as well, where a lot of people may not have ever even heard that word before.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that has to do, you know, with balance and movement and so things. People who are really sensitive here, like things like escalators and movement and I don't know about you, but I've always been pretty sensitive to movement.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't realize this. You were mentioning, like looking back, you know, and not realizing until later on in life. I used to be horrified about escalators as a kid and I would not step on them. Like, I had to like.

[A]

Me too, me too. I, Well, I also had this fear that I'd get sucked under, but I think it was a combination of like anxiety fear of like, I just saw myself getting sucked under between the stairs. So I would like be there. I'd be like trying to step. But then also I think there was something about the movement that my body didn't like.

[B]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. And. And balance. Right? Like having and just being able to balance. I, I smash into all the time. Ariel will be like, where did these bruises come from? And I'm like, I'm like looking at my shins or my legs, I'm like. Or my arms, I'm like, I have no idea. I don't even remember when those got there.

[A]

Totally the same. Because I walk into like doors and I'd like just walk into things all the time. And all I. Right now I have so many bruises. I'm like, I have no idea where that came from.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So, yes. Getting to know. So getting to know our sensory. And, and that's where I think first of all, just curiosity about it, language for it, hearing other people talk about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In, in community. That's huge. I have. And I'll link to these. I've got like some sensory checklists. I really like that because if you. It's kind of like the open ended question. If you're like, Megan, what are your sensory preferences? I mean, now I could list them, but it's hard to come up with them off the bat. But if I'm looking at a list of like, oh, I like open light. Oh, I like lamp light or dim light. It just feels easier for my brain to wrap around. So I really like sensory checklists as a way to get to know sensory profile, autism level up. They've got a bunch of free resources that are really cool, like the regulator 2.0 where they go through different sensory systems and you check like this is energizing. This like. Or this is calming or this is neutral. And I think that's a cool way of thinking about our sensory system too. Of what energizes versus what soothes. So, for example, if I'm feeling tired but I have work I need to do, I might. I'll like put on stem music because I know that energizes me. Sensory. I'll get like a cold carbonated drink. Cause that energizes me. And so even thinking through our sensory system from an energy management level is really cool because it's. Or even what you're talking about with the rubber band of like, okay, I'm in this rubber band place. What is gonna be sensory soothing for me in this moment. And to be able. When we really understand our sensory system, we have so much more that we can work with when we're in those hard moments.

[B]

100% very, very well said. Yeah. So wrap it up time.

[A]

Because we've got 22 minutes before you have to go.

[B]

I can stretch it a little bit so we can, we can record the next episode. But yeah, yeah, so can't find my thoughts. If you have enjoyed this series or the last series or any of the stuff that we're doing, you can find us on all the major podcast platforms and YouTube. And our episodes come out on Fridays. And Megan Anna is also going to list a lot of her resources to these episodes. So make sure to like, download, subscribe and share. And we will see you next week. Foreign.

[A]

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources. Freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.