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Divergent Conversations
Episode 137: FLASHBACK — Autistic Burnout City: Perpetual Sensory Hell
00:46:25
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- [00:01]
Dr. Neff
We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.
- [00:23]
Patrick Cassell
From day one, you can expect unlimited customer support through onboarding that sets you up for success and and a 99.99% software reliability that ensures that Jane is always ready to start the day with you.
- [00:36]
Dr. Neff
Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features so you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.
- [00:49]
Patrick Cassell
If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane App Mental Health to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the Code DC Pod at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
- [01:16]
Dr. Neff
And I'm Dr. Neff.
- [01:18]
Patrick Cassell
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone, it's Patrick from Divergent Conversations. Megan, Anna and I are embarking upon our seasonal break. It has been a long year for both of us, as it has for all of you. We've decided to take our end of the year break a little bit early and re release some of our favorite episodes from 2025. We really appreciate all of your support. We appreciate all of you who listen, download, share and continuously send us feedback. We really appreciate our sponsors, Landmark College and Jane App for healthcare. You two have been in our corners basically the entire year. We will see you on the other side. We hope everyone has a healthy, safe, happy new year. Hey everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are getting ready to release a new collection that we are going to do. An entire autistic burnout collection and pretty exciting because we just did a collection on not your typical wellness and I feel like I am already in burnout. So this is a really fascinating time to start this series.
- [02:49]
Dr. Neff
Patrick, have you ever left burnout?
- [02:55]
Patrick Cassell
I don't think so.
- [02:56]
Dr. Neff
I mean is your life just a perpetual.
- [02:59]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, I mean my, my life does feel like perpetual burnout. Yeah, it really does.
- [03:05]
Dr. Neff
Can I. And I realize I'm just diving right into. To the deep end. And this is not how we talked about sketching out, which is just how we do. But you've also talked, like, in our last series, and I appreciated your honesty around this. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you talked about also being depressed. Is that how do you tease out when you're depressed versus when you're in burnout? Or does that distinction even matter to you?
- [03:36]
Patrick Cassell
We are diving really right in, right away. Love it. I think we. We are. Like, we're going to give a little quick synopsis definition of what autistic burnout is, but, you know, let's circumnavigate that. We do have episodes, full episodes, number two and number 47, where we have done deep, extensive dives on what autistic burnout is. And we are going to link those in the show notes for every single episode of the series. Okay. Anyway.
- [04:08]
Dr. Neff
Wow, look at that social ligamenting that you just did. Like, and I'm so tired to be like, yeah, I'm impressed.
- [04:15]
Patrick Cassell
Which is probably why I'm always in burnout, if I'm being honest. Like, how naturally that stuff comes to me in. In a lot of senses. And I think that keeps me stuck here.
- [04:27]
Dr. Neff
Because you had an itchy thought, like, no, we've got to. We've got to define autistic burnout before we dive into kind of emotional conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's part of the hypervigilance load that you carry.
- [04:42]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Which feels pretty. Pretty consistent. Okay, how am I differentiating between whether I know that I'm in burnout or that I'm depressed? As someone who really resonates with a. Like, a major depressive disorder diagnosis, or maybe at least sick lefty, Cyclothymia. Can never say that word correctly. Like, chronic underlying depression at all times. It's hard to tease out. It is really hard to tease out at times. But I think for me, when I'm thinking more about autistic burnout, I'm thinking about how impacted all parts of me are, not just my mental state. And I think a lot of that can feel like unbelievable. Sensory overwhelm, irritability, frustration tolerance, lack of special interests or participation in them, my desire to socialize and desire to withdraw. But that can feel like, ooh, which one is this? In that situation, I really start to think about the sensory component. Like, I really start to think about how I feel. Like I'VE talked about this before. That exposed nerve ending, moving through the world, being shocked all the time. That feels constant. And it's just like every little thing becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. And I was noticing this yesterday when I was laying on my couch. I wasn't feeling well. I had, like, a sore throat, low grade, feverish. And of course, I'm like, of course I'm sick again. Right. And I was, like, answering an email, and I was like, oh, that is really irritating me right now. The having to respond to this thing, having to open that extra tab, having to do that, like, open my computer again. I'm, like, noticing the frustration building, and it's always a good indication for me that I'm like, well, either on the way or I'm like, already firmly there and just never realized it until it hits you like a ton of bricks.
- [06:41]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Yeah. So. So there's like, the gradual. Your experience of it is like, there's the kind of gradual build. The frustration, which I definitely relate to, like, tasks just start feeling like molasses, and then it hits, like, a ton of bricks. Is that when it's like, collapse on the couch for you type thing?
- [07:01]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, yeah. And that's almost where I want to take my phone and, like, throw it across the room because I'm so overwhelmed. And I start to have, like, more sensory meltdowns and shutdowns, and they start to intensify.
- [07:16]
Dr. Neff
Yep.
- [07:17]
Patrick Cassell
And things that would not typically, you know, lead to one. Everything starts to lead to sensory meltdown, and then therefore, sensory shutdown. And then I'm just in it, and I can't get out of it.
- [07:30]
Dr. Neff
Like, yeah, perpetual sensory hell.
- [07:33]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, perpetual sensory, sensory hell.
- [07:35]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, Burnout. Like, I'm thinking of, like, if Burnout was a city, and it's like, welcome to Burnout. Welcome to perpetual sensory hell. Oh, my gosh. Wait. That would be a fun activity. Like, burnout the city and then to, like, like, design it.
- [07:52]
Patrick Cassell
Oh, my God. And I also have, like, man, we really need our merch lineup. Because that is such a good T shirt. Like, it's such a good. I would wear it. Welcome to Burnout. Perpetual sensory hell.
- [08:06]
Dr. Neff
Oh, we need a clever name for our Burnout city, too. Like, Burnout. Burnout something. And then, like, yeah, the. That would be the tagline. And then what would the restaurants be in our city?
- [08:20]
Patrick Cassell
Applebee's. It would just be Applebee's. Like, you would have no other options, and people would be coming through singing. Do you. Have you ever stepped foot in one when they're like singing Happy Birthday. Yeah. It would just be that on, like, a loop. And all you can eat is, like, those sizzling, disgusting steak platters that come out scalding hot. And they're, like, smoking in your face. And you set it down in front of you, and it just burns you immediately. But then the smoke is hitting you in the face and it just tastes horrible.
- [08:48]
Dr. Neff
Like, all the clothes are made of wool, scratchy wool.
- [08:53]
Patrick Cassell
Yep, yep. And you can't get any clothes. Like, your socks are, like, irritating your toes the entire time. The temperature is never right.
- [09:02]
Dr. Neff
It never. And the houses. All of the houses are doing laundry. And the, like, exhaust from the. And they're all using, like, fragrant. The dryer sheets that. And, like, the fragrance. You know, when you walk. When you walk by a house doing laundry, and the exhaust, it just smells so chemically. So all the houses are always doing laundry with a terrible fragrance.
- [09:22]
Patrick Cassell
The only. The only vehicles that exist are ambulances and fire trucks with their sirens on. And they just drive up and down the street casually. But it's like the ice cream man. But that thing is just blaring all the time.
- [09:37]
Dr. Neff
Someone needs to, like, take this transcription. Okay. I'm not actually saying people should do this because controversial, but, like, and turn it into an AI video. You know how they can, like, make videos now and turn this into a city? Except I wouldn't want to watch that video because it'd be too overstimulating, right?
- [09:54]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Yeah. And you're, like, either understimulated all the time and you're just, like, wanting to crawl out of your skin, or you're so overstimulated that you're just curled up in a ball and you just can't get out of it.
- [10:06]
Dr. Neff
So the under stimulation that is. Yeah, because I will feel understimulated and burnout because I don't. I lose access to my curiosity when I'm in burnout, which is, for me, my cur. Like I've said, I said this. I think. Oh, I don't know if I said it on the podcast or if I wrote it in relation to my ocd. I talked about how this was a new insight recently. I fill my mind with ideas in order to escape my thoughts, and curiosity is how I do that. So when I lose access to curiosity, that. That to me, becomes a trigger for depression. Partly so that for me, burnout often will lead to depression, but it's that under stimulation of. I'm understimulated, but nothing sounds good like reading a book. Reading, like Doing a creative project because I don't have energy for it. And so it's. It's also different than. So because this becomes an important distinction. Anhedonia, I'm probably mispronouncing it, but like the loss of pleasure, which is part of depression, there's that. But then in burnout, for me, it's. I just don't have energy.
- [11:14]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [11:14]
Dr. Neff
And that feels different.
- [11:16]
Patrick Cassell
It does feel different. And because you and I are both adhd, I feel like I'm always in that space where the. The ADHD side is so understimulated in these moments where it's like I need something to feel creative or I to feel stimulated, but I don't have the energy. I don't have capacity. So you're almost wrestling with yourself in that way.
- [11:40]
Dr. Neff
And that's what. In my. In my past life, when I. When I struggled more in my relationship to alcohol, that's when I would go. That's when I was most vulnerable to go to alcohol. Because it's like, well, this is going to be like kind of some passive dopamine while I'm doing this other thing. And obviously filling our systems with alcohol is not going to support burnout recovery.
- [12:03]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [12:04]
Dr. Neff
But it. I think it makes sense that. I think a lot of us do that for that stimulation, especially if we're Audi adhd.
- [12:10]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. So it's so fitting that we go from wellness to burnout. And I'm in it, like, I can feel it intensely. And I realize, like, it's only June 12th right now and I have so much left to do this year.
- [12:33]
Dr. Neff
And this is. I don't know if you're like me, but like, in my head I'm like, it's June. This is supposed to be the best energetic months because it's summer and it's sunny and for. I know, for me, I'm very sensitive to that. Is that true for you or is summer usually actually your better months?
- [12:49]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, I mean, energetically for sure. I always feel myself like slowing and shutting down once, like, middle of October comes into, like, March. Ish. But, you know, I was having this thought in association the other day about how it is June, how it's like, quote, unquote, nicer weather outside, there's more sun. And because I'm so sensitive to temperature and heat, it's so hard for me to be like, excited about that, while a lot of other people around me are like, gearing up for spending significantly more time outside. And I'm like, constantly trying to Seek shade or ventilation or, like, how can I regulate my temperature at all times in order to, like, participate in this part of life?
- [13:35]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. I mean. And I've heard a lot of other folks talk about that, too. Is so. Even if. Because I think I might be making this up, but I don't think I am. But I don't know the academic research to cite. I think one thing I've read about ADHD is that we can be more sensitive to kind of, like, circadian rhythm shifts. And so the sun. So I think for a lot of us, sometimes we do feel more energy with the sun, but then there's. Again, especially for audio hd, there's regulating our environment. If we're outside, there's bugs, there's the brightness of the sun, there's the temperature regulation. So even if we are in bodies that perhaps benefit from more sunlight, then that's also something that we have to navigate of. Like, how do we. And how do we do that in a way that feels okay, you know?
- [14:23]
Patrick Cassell
So we're both wearing black right now, too.
- [14:25]
Dr. Neff
Well, I'm always wearing black. You're just. You're just copying me.
- [14:28]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, Yeah, I just.
- [14:29]
Dr. Neff
Welcome to the club.
- [14:30]
Patrick Cassell
I was real dark in my. My office because it's like, later in the day here, but, yeah, it's. Yeah, I think that's a part of it, too, Right. Like, how much cognitive energy has to go into that constant hypervigilance of, like, everything has to be just right at all times for our sensory systems and how often it just. I can feel just so depleted from having to navigate that in, like, most areas of my life at all times.
- [14:57]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:01]
Patrick Cassell
So I want to flip the script a little bit. You asked me about this. You just got back from a trip. I imagine for you, you're also feeling worn down to some degree. Are you feeling like you're in burnout at the moment, or do you feel like. I feel like I'm kind of at a good place.
- [15:21]
Dr. Neff
I. So my reference point was, like, forever shifted after last fall. So I. I mean, yeah, I've talked about this on the podcast. I got Covid in 2020. I was, like, quite sick for nine months, developed asthma as part of it, and then every time I've gotten Covid, which it. It, like, just takes me out for four to six months. And then. And then it's also like, well, what do I call that? Do I call that autistic burnout? Do I call that long Covid? Do I call it chronic fatigue syndrome? Like, and that's where it's, it's, it's helpful to have names for things. And then also it's like the cluster together in ways that are complex. So my reference point being the fall, which was when I, I, I, I was really struggling to do what I'm doing now, which is sitting upright like I was on the couch being, I always confused horizontal and vertical. I was being horizontal like pretty much all day. On a good day I could get myself to work three hours.
- [16:28]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [16:29]
Dr. Neff
Compared to that, I feel much, much better. I'm back to being able to work full days. I'm still mostly, and that's probably because of some health things. I still mostly do it vertically, but I'm able to go outside in the sun and do it. So that's my reference point. So compared to that reference point, I'm feeling much better than I was and I also am very much aware and we've also talked about this a bit on the podcast, but last, you know, this year started with that website migration that went terribly, horribly wrong. And I've been in fight flight energy. Yeah, that tipped into pretty intense energy in the spring. And so I'm also very aware that my nervous system has been in a stress state for many months. And so I'm kind of terrified of the fall or I'm terrified about when I get sick again because, and I don't want to like make it a self fulfilling prophecy, but I'm imagining a pretty intense crash might be coming.
- [17:34]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And you kind of talked about that in the wellness series of like this fear of when is this energy going to go away or when is, when are, when am I going to really struggle again? And scary that is.
- [17:45]
Dr. Neff
And the intensity of that because when we were recording I was in the intensity of that like that has shifted down which is really good because I was struggling to sleep. It was so intense. And that has shifted and it, and I, and it didn't shift into a depression which I was a bit worried on. And so it has shifted back into like, I don't know, it's a, I don't think I have a baseline, but to what feels like would be a healthy baseline if I had one. And I'm still like dealing with business stress. And I'm curious as that wraps up like what my body will do. But right now I'm just, I'm appreciating the sun. I'm appreciating that my body is managing to get a little bit of sleep and I'm, I'm feeling for Me pretty resilient. But again, that's a huge caveat of like, what for me is resilient.
- [18:35]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, for sure. That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, I'm glad for you for that reason for sure. Because I remember recording last year in the fall when you were like, I'm just gonna lay down on my couch and turn my video off because I can't. I can't, like, do this right now. And you are really struggling, for sure. And physically and mentally in that time.
- [18:57]
Dr. Neff
And I couldn't put words, like words into sentences were so hard for me. And I'm. Yeah, yeah. We actually have. So we have a family gathering. So once a year we gather with my spouse's family. And that's actually, as far as I can tell, that's where I got Covid last year. So I like, I'm actually going into next week, like, really scared. And I, again, I have traveled. I traveled to Belize. I. But it's just, I'm so scared of getting Covid because that's the thing that, for me, takes me completely out and I do what I can to be cautious. And you only have so much control.
- [19:34]
Patrick Cassell
For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about the last time I felt good for, like any stretch of time, I. So much has happened, you know, over the last couple years, but like, well, I was like, looking at the hurricane here ever since then because I was already in burnout going into that. So coming out of it has been so challenging because life doesn't stop, you know, Like, I've done a better job. Like we talked about in some of our episodes of setting better boundaries in my life and all of the things. And even announcing a big pivot in my career a couple weeks ago. But I haven't been able to get out of it. I haven't been able to dig myself out of it. And sometimes I do think I need a month of just complete solitude and isolation from all things. And that also is horrifying to me. Hey, everyone, it's Patrick, one half of Divergent Conversations. Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA and black, brown, and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United States, Aetna and Med cost as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our website@resilientmindcounseling.com and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisilientmindcounseling.com.
- [21:59]
Dr. Neff
You'Ve talked about that. You've talked about kind of wanting to like go underground for a period, which I actually really love for you, Patrick, because I think. And, and we've. You've talked about that. How it's so hard to not respond to notifications and it's so hard to like fully get off and, and we're so what? One thing that's been in the back of my head as we're talking about our levels of burnout is we are both writing a book in this next year, which is a really freaking heavy lift. And I'm also feeling that as I'm like anticipating this year, I'm like, oh my gosh, have I budgeted enough time for this? And where was I going with this? Oh, I think the thing about like yeah, we were, we were texting about this. Off. Off. Well, not recording about how important it is to hold onto your mind when you're writing a book and to have access to your mind and how hard that can be when we're like in the pings and the pongs and how you're in addition to writing a book thinking about career shifts. And I am so excited for you if you actually make this happen. For you to have a season of going dormant and like the image that keeps coming to my head is like roots and soil and ground. And then like coming back from that with something that feels really deeply rooted, that feels new, that feels so aligned for you. Cause I think the tension I've felt as we've been recording there's something that hasn't felt aligned for you. And I would you say that's part of your burnout even is like friction around that of the way your work, I don't know, alignment work, burnout these words are associated in my head. Do they make any connection for you?
- [23:43]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, for sure. I think since the day we met, you know, I've been doing work that I haven't always truly loved. And I think that that has intensified over time. You know, like, just the career that I've had over the last couple of years has required a lot of me to be, like, a presence and a face and like a person who's involved in a lot of things. And it just doesn't feel aligned to me. And then once the passion went away, it really didn't feel. It feel very misaligned. And then like, obviously continuing to show up in those spaces or in that environment because capitalism and needing to make money and it's just like, that just almost amplifies everything, too, of, like, being in a. Being in a space where you just don't feel content or passion filled or excited. And then that becomes a situation where you start to try to, like, split hairs of, like, is this burnout? Is this depression? Is this burnout? Is this depression and that kind of vacillates, like, back and forth.
- [24:46]
Dr. Neff
Or is it misalignment? Right. Is it value misalignment? And is it that my. There's something in my life that, like, need would benefit from adjusting that this is. And that goes back to the idea of, like, emotions are signals. Right. Emotions aren't good or bad, they're signals. So also. And sometimes burnout can be signals of, like, is this signaling a need for some sort of life trajectory shift?
- [25:11]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. Which is horrifying in a lot of ways, but because that's change. Yeah. Which is our favorite change. Routine disruption, like, all of the things that we really love. Sarcasm. And I think I said to you offline, like, I feel like there's a part of me that has placed myself in this situation purposefully. Like, I have run myself down by doing all of these things over the last four or five years so that I can take a step back and, like, actually rest and actually breathe. And, like, I don't have to work so hard right now because I have set myself up in that space from the retreats and the podcasts and some other stuff that I've done.
- [25:56]
Dr. Neff
So, yeah, I'm curious what you mean by that, because my brain goes to two places. One is like, you've done that to financially set yourself up so that you could take a break, which would make sense. Or do you mean it? Because I also relate to this where it's like, you are so burned out, you literally Can't. So you have no other option but to take a step back.
- [26:14]
Patrick Cassell
That part, the second one, they're both true. And again, like, no, but I'm the same way.
- [26:22]
Dr. Neff
I need my body to say hell no exactly. For me to actually take a step back.
- [26:28]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [26:29]
Dr. Neff
Which, which is what happened last fall for me.
- [26:31]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And I, you know, since our, since we've known each other, both of us get sick fairly often. And I've. I've just noticed the increasing, like the increasing likelihood that I'm getting sick more and more and more and more. I'm more and more fatigued all the time. And like you said, it could be chronic fatigue syndrome, it could be this, it could be this. But in reality, it's a culmination. And I think for me, that culmination has led to such an intense period of autistic burnout that my body is like, hell no. Like, there's no gas in the tank whatsoever. Like, we're beyond empty. It's like when you're driving, when you're a teenager and your gas tank is definitely empty, but you're like, I can go 30 more miles. And like that. I'm way beyond that. Like, that barometer is gone.
- [27:19]
Dr. Neff
So that's part of our city is every time you go to a gas station to fill up, it's like it gives you an inch, just enough so that you're like at the. Your gas station, your gas tank still is registered as empty, but it's at like the top of empty. And that's all you can ever get at a gas station. When you go to a gas station in our burnout city, or you show.
- [27:39]
Patrick Cassell
Up to the gas station and you're on empty and the gas tank says, or the gas thing says, out of service. And then you have, then you have to drive down the road, you know.
- [27:49]
Dr. Neff
No, no, no. You have to push your car down.
- [27:51]
Patrick Cassell
The road, but it's up a hill and like.
- [27:57]
Dr. Neff
Oh, God, do you want to come to a retreat in our burnout city? We are selling tickets for 2027.
- [28:08]
Patrick Cassell
Oh, God. Yeah. You know, this is like laughing about this and joking about this is so helpful because I know so many of you are probably listening and relating so hard to this too. Like, yeah. And. Oh, okay, One more thing for the city, because I just watched my dog walker out of my peripheral, like walking down the street is the only animals that exist in this city are my shih Tzu named Hudson. And he just barks incessantly non stop. Doesn't matter how often you Try to get him to be quiet. And, like, it just doesn't ever, Never, ever, ever stop.
- [28:41]
Dr. Neff
None of the cute, fluffy animals are there?
- [28:43]
Patrick Cassell
No. No. So that's it?
- [28:46]
Dr. Neff
Just the barky ones?
- [28:47]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [28:48]
Dr. Neff
And the cats that throw up?
- [28:50]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Or, like, you know, you're, like, you're finally sleeping, and, like, your dog decides that he needs to go outside to go to the bathroom at three in the morning, so you have to, like, wake up from sleeping for the first time in, like, a week and let your animal out the. Go to the bathroom sometimes.
- [29:06]
Dr. Neff
What are the beds made of?
- [29:08]
Patrick Cassell
Oh, people will laugh at this if you've come to my Ireland retreat, but some of you have said that you would rather sleep on the ground than sleep in the beds at the cottages that existed there. So maybe something like that feels like. Like, plywood, basically. I don't know. No mattress, no box spring. But it's like one of those pillows that you get at a hotel that is way too soft and it's, like, lumpy, and, like, you keep trying to, like, put it behind your head somehow. And, like, you're squeezing it in half to give yourself support, and you just cannot get comfortable.
- [29:41]
Dr. Neff
And then in the middle of the city is like, an accommodations center. But to get accommodations, you have to wait in line for six hours in the sun and listen to, like, loud music and parades going by you. And. And then by the time you finally get to the accommodation desk, they, like, give you a little. They give you, like, earbuds, like, sleeping earbuds, and they're like, you're welcome, but.
- [30:05]
Patrick Cassell
They only have one, so you. You have to choose which ear it goes into. Or it's like the DMV where they just put the sign on the desk and they're, like, going to lunch, and you just have to stand there for 30 more minutes.
- [30:18]
Dr. Neff
Oh.
- [30:19]
Patrick Cassell
Oh, man.
- [30:21]
Dr. Neff
This could be a. This could be a fun movie.
- [30:24]
Patrick Cassell
I think you could come up with some cool visuals for this, so, you know, we'll see where that goes. Yeah. And in all seriousness, like, we. I think this is a hard place to be. And, you know, the differentiation. You. You do such a wonderful job with, like, the Misdiagnosis Monday Post and the Venn diagrams that are so useful visually for people to kind of make sense of. And the burnout component of, like, is it depression? Is it autistic burnout? Is it A, B, C, D, E, F, G? And I think everything we're talking about wrapped up into, like, this experience, you know, is. Is what it is for me. And that's how I know when I'm there.
- [31:06]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. And I, like you said something a moment ago, I like that it's like this constellation of experiences. And I think that's that when I think about. And when I talk about burnout recovery, that becomes a really important part of the conversation is it's not like, I think sometimes partly the autistic mind, we want to be like, well, is it this or is it that? And then what's the treatment? And it's with autistic burnout, it's multi. It's multi systemic. And so it's not like there's this one treatment, it's like, well, okay, your nervous system's probably been dysregulated for a long time. You know, is your sensory system regulated? How's your sleep? How's your health? How's your. This is a hard one. And I, and we talked about wanting to do a series on food, which I do, but also like, you know, are you eating things that are. That's causing inflammation in your body? So it's also like a. There's a lifestyle factor to it. There's just. Because our systems are so vulnerable and we're moving through this world, it's a multiple system thing. And then of course, if we're having any mental health condition on top of that or medical condition on top of that, those are also some of those drivers for. Burnout.
- [32:12]
Patrick Cassell
Intensifies too, when that's happening. Right. Like, and I noticed that too. I should have mentioned that, like, my chronic pain has gone up pretty drastically over the last month or two. And I, I can tell, like, that's all tied in as well. So when I'm starting to experience more and more acuity and intensity, I'm like, I'm probably there.
- [32:34]
Dr. Neff
So that, and that is. Well, first of all, just, I'm, I'm sorry. As someone who also lives with chronic pain, like chronic pain flares are chronic plague. Chronic pain flares are often the first domino for so many things for me. And I know for a lot of us that knowing what the triggering event is, I think that's part of. So I talk a bit about burnout recovery and building a life more resilient to burnout. I think knowing what our triggers are is a big important piece of that for me too. It's. Chronic pain becomes a trigger because when my pain is flaring, I'm moving less. My sleep is also worse. I'm more prone to seek comfort through foods that I know cause inflammation in, in my body that Cause stomach pain in my body. And so those triggering events and then knowing what they are, because it's like, okay, and I, I see you. I see you. Chronic pain. I see that. I see the behaviors that want to follow when I'm in that cycle, and then I see what it creates. And it takes me, like, walking through that cycle 20 times right before I'm like, okay, maybe I'll try something different here.
- [33:41]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Spot on, spot on. And, you know, it's. It's interesting, you know, if we. You make a post or two about burnout on social media, for example, and you'll get comments like, isn't that just everyone's experience of life? Like, doesn't everyone just experience burnout? Because we live in capitalism and the world is on fire. And like, all of us, and we.
- [34:02]
Dr. Neff
Do, like, all humans probably in modern society are experiencing some level of burnout. And it's not the same. It's not the same as autistic burnout.
- [34:09]
Patrick Cassell
And that's the big differentiating factor of like, it's. It's not the same.
- [34:15]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. And I think about it more like, kind of socially. Like, when an autistic person says, I'm in burnout, what they mean tends to be really different. Like, I'm struggling to feed myself. I'm struggling to put words into sentences like something that for someone else, when they're in burnout, it doesn't seem like a heavy lift. For us. It does.
- [34:36]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad you named that. That's. That's kind of what I wanted to get at, is that it's just, it's very different. I mean, I think we're all probably in some stage of burnout in this world right now.
- [34:49]
Dr. Neff
We live in a dehumanizing world that's like, not supportive of our systems or our minds or our connections. Like everything we talked about in the wellness series, we, we live. And an anti. You know, we live in anti nourishing systems and worlds. And so all humans are struggling, which is, again, that's where with any conversation, it can be like us versus them. Like autistic burnout and we're struggling, but neurotypicals are fine. It's like, no, all humans are struggling. We're gonna. We're like the whole canaries in the coal mine thing. Like, I think we have a more exaggerated response often. But.
- [35:30]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, thank you for breaking that down because that, I think that's just an important point to make, you know, like, everyone's struggling. I wouldn't I can't imagine I know a single human who's not experiencing some semblance of burnout, and it's just really not the same. And the longevity of it, too, is so different. And it's hard to differentiate, though, y'. All. Like, I mean, life is hard. Life is really freaking hard.
- [35:57]
Dr. Neff
There's another tagline like, life is really freaking hard.
- [36:02]
Patrick Cassell
I'm glad this has been an uplifting episode. And those are always our favorite.
- [36:08]
Dr. Neff
And with your voice, it's just. Those are always our favorite.
- [36:12]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I'm not in, like, Eeyore mode, though. Like, last time, you know, like, in the grief episode situation, I was super depressed, but I'm not in that mode right now. I'm just. Yeah, I think my cadence is just over right now and burnt out.
- [36:24]
Dr. Neff
Yeah. Which. Which makes sense. I mean, you've had. You've had a lot happening, and you've been traveling a lot, and you've been absorbing a lot of negative energy in the world and are pretty impacted by that. So I think of you as, like, a pretty hypervigilant person as at baseline. And then. Hi, 2025.
- [36:46]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. Yep.
- [36:47]
Dr. Neff
Okay. Yeah. Oh, I did have a thought. It was when you were talking about that being on the couch and wanting to throw your phone. Okay. This is a totally divergent thought. I thought about how you've talked about OCD a bit, and some of the ways some of your compulsions show up is like, you can't have any notifications on your phone. And I was thinking about the OCD burnout connection because our. Some of the compulsions we do can be really. Energy exhausting.
- [37:13]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [37:13]
Dr. Neff
And then burnout. Like, we're exhausted. What is some of the OCD stuff look like for you? And burnout? Like, because also when I'm. When I'm not sleeping, my OCD gets worse. But then. Yeah. So it's just. I. It was. It was one of the first times my brain went to think about the OCD burnout connection. Does that.
- [37:33]
Patrick Cassell
No. I mean, it definitely relates. And. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of examples.
- [37:39]
Dr. Neff
Can you let. Because you are so, like. Okay, my inbox has to be zero. Notifications have to be zero. Do you let any of that go when you're in burnout, or does it. I do.
- [37:49]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I. I am so much less responsive. And that's another indication for me of, like. Because there is still that compulsive. Compulsive need to check, respond, delete, clear all the things. But I'm just, like. I Don't have the energy or the capacity to even care about how much agony this is causing me mentally. By not being able to do these.
- [38:13]
Dr. Neff
Things right now, then it's causing, I would assume it's causing stress to see that. Yeah, yeah. And what about like showers? Like, I know you often will do like three showers a day or yeah, laundry.
- [38:25]
Patrick Cassell
I mean that never changes. Like, I am baseline to shower a day human. So it's just, you know, I, I, I definitely have a compulsive need to constantly be washing my hands. And like, I probably put way too much hand sanitizer on at all times. But like, I haven't noticed an increase in any of that. Um, I do. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I, I, I haven't noticed. And maybe I'll start paying attention more to that side of things for myself.
- [38:54]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, I'll get pulled into more checking loops.
- [38:58]
Patrick Cassell
Checking is kind of checking situation. Like, did I leave the stove on?
- [39:02]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah. And, and it'll get worse where it's like, I'll maybe like, you know, I'll be driving down the road and I'll know, like, I'll be like, yeah, I know I turned off my hair thing or my, the stove. But I'll be like, I just have to go back and check. And it's like, and I think it's partly because of that irritability is so much more. It's like I can't handle, I just can't handle the distress of this. So even though I have a memory of turning it off, I need to go back and check.
- [39:26]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [39:27]
Dr. Neff
So I have like, less, it's almost like I have less control over my checking behavior. Like, whereas sometimes I can be like, I can self soothe myself when I'm leaving. I'll be like, no, I do remember unplugging that. I know I want to go back and check, but I'm not going to. I don't have the same amount of patience to walk myself through that.
- [39:47]
Patrick Cassell
That makes sense. Yeah, I do have like, yeah, I do notice actually now that you say that, like the compulsive need to check and clear things intensifies, but I don't actually do it. So the action actually decreases, which is interesting. But the need to like, constantly, like, I'll check my inbox. I'll check my Spruce health, like group practice account. I'll check all of the things constantly, like compulsively on loop over and over and over and over again. But I don't do anything about it.
- [40:14]
Dr. Neff
Like, I can't I? Yeah, I do that, too. Like, because the only kind of work I really have access to is passive work. So I'm checking, but then I'm not actively working on anything, so I'm just sitting there stressing myself out.
- [40:27]
Patrick Cassell
Yep, Yep.
- [40:29]
Dr. Neff
We're really smart, Patrick.
- [40:32]
Patrick Cassell
I. I'd like to think so, too. Yeah.
- [40:35]
Dr. Neff
This is a recommended burnout strategy. Just, like, passively work, checking on all the accumulating work, stressing yourself out.
- [40:44]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, it's. It is a lot of. It's a blast. Yeah. I don't know. I'm feeling that weird energy right now of, like, shifting.
- [40:55]
Dr. Neff
Yeah, I can tell. I was like, okay, you're starting to get, like, antsy, like, you're ready to wrap this episode up.
- [40:59]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, let's do it. How do we wrap this up? Because I know we want to. You are doing burnout in your world, in NDI right now.
- [41:08]
Dr. Neff
Yes. So our summer theme is Burnout Everything. So we're doing a burnout course in the Nook, and we're doing a burnout series on social media. So we had talked about kind of loosely structuring this via my workbook, partly because then we just don't have to think about it. So our goal today for this episode was to talk about, like, what burnout is, what our kind of signs or triggers are. Internal signs, external signs, I guess if we do want to zoom out and offer some concrete things as we wrap this up. One thing I'll say something else I also talk about a bit is one of the vulnerabilities is because of interoceptive awareness challenges or alexithymia, a lot of us don't know where we're at in the stress cycle or the burnout cycle till we've hit what you call that, like, the bricks, which means we don't have as much space to intervene at a point where it's like, okay, I could pull back here. I could implement some restorative practices. And then by the time we do know we're in burnout, we don't have much capacity to support ourselves. So I think that's part of the vulnerability for a lot of us. So one of the exercises that can be helpful when we're thinking about burnout is to spend some time thinking about, what are my external markers, what are my internal markers? What are my triggers? So, like, for you, you know, chronic pain is a known trigger. For me, when I get pulled into an insomnia loop, I know that's a trigger. Or when something really stressful happens in My life, I know I get a spike of cortisol energy typically followed by a crash. So I know that's a trigger. But for those who have interoceptive awareness challenges, really focusing on the external triggers. So maybe it is something like we've been talking about of, like, I'll start doing more passive work, but not active work where I'm just like checking things. Or maybe it's relying on safe foods more. I know for me, when I'm in burnout, like, give me three Amy's gluten free vegetarian burritos a day and I will just eat that and that'll be the only food I eat, so. Or it's like we'll look more autistic. Like, and by autistic, I mean like the, like, diagnostic criteria. Like those traits that often tend to elevate during stress, like need for sameness, need for routine socializing is going to get harder, communication is going to get harder. So we will look more autistic when we're starting to track toward burnout. So people knowing what their external signs are, I think can be really helpful, especially if you have less access to your kind of internal signals.
- [43:43]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Yep. All of that. Yep. And the reason we're following the, your, your lead this month or this season is like path of least resistance, y'. All. We know it's an important topic. We know so many of you are dealing with this, including ourselves. So path of least resistance, in terms of like, what collection are we going to do this series?
- [44:04]
Dr. Neff
Because we were literally like, what are we going to, what are we going to talk about?
- [44:07]
Patrick Cassell
Because that's how we plan this podcast is what are we going to talk about? We go back and forth about it for, for a while. But we hope this series collection is going to be helpful for everyone and hopefully helpful for ourselves as we move along it as well. One thing I want to also add is this is when we start to see a lot of people who are discovering that they're autistic later in life is when you have hit such intense periods of autistic burnout that something has to give. Something becomes acutely aware that all the things I've tried, not exactly working, all the ideas that I had, potential diagnoses, et cetera, they're not lining up. This is when we're seeing a lot of intensification.
- [44:48]
Dr. Neff
Absolutely. Absolutely. Most, I would say for a lot of adults, this is when they get identified as autistic, when they're burnout. And that's something I like to, I like to When I'm doing clinical trainings, I like to teach people that because it means the moment that they're like catching the person or interacting with them, it's not just about the autism, it's about the burnout. And that's a really vulnerable time for a lot of us. But yeah, because also the masking, like, yeah. Aren't able to mask in the same way when we're in burnout. So this. So for a lot of autistic adults, it's like they're wrapping their mind around an autistic identity and they're grappling with burnout at the same time. And that. That's a lot for a person.
- [45:25]
Patrick Cassell
A lot. It's really heavy. It's really heavy. So y' all are not alone in this. Okay. If you're in this space, just know that. And we're going to link a ton of resources in the show notes. And like I mentioned before we started talking, really, episodes two and 47, where we kind of deep dive, like more clinical definition of autistic burnout. So reference those as well. We're not gonna deep dive that in this collection. Just there's no need to reinvent the wheel. So anything else?
- [45:54]
Dr. Neff
Okay. No, I think. I think that's a good summary. And then I think we're gonna next episode talk about kind of how to think through building a burnout recovery plan.
- [46:05]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. Yeah. So we'll give you some more tangible stuff in the next episode too and hopefully you can incorporate that into your day to day.
- [46:12]
Dr. Neff
Ooh, what if our city gets a makeover as we go through this series?
- [46:17]
Patrick Cassell
Okay. Okay. We are going to continue this burnout city. What was the tagline? I already forgot it. It was like sensory.
- [46:25]
Dr. Neff
Oh, goodness. The place. Like the place for sensory hell or pervasive chronic sensory hell. I don't. I'll have to re. Listen to it. It was a good tagline.
- [46:36]
Patrick Cassell
I already forgot 45 minutes later. But yeah, we're going to continue talking about this and, you know, that's just going to help us really build this world and hopefully create a more neuro affirming one as we go. So episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms in YouTube and you can like download, subscribe and share and goodbye.
- [47:06]
Dr. Neff
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our Autistic burnout Resources Freed and Paid Resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout-resources it's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.