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Divergent Conversations
Episode 138: FLASHBACK — Neurodivergent Realities, Rupture & Repair, and Podcast Updates
00:47:19
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- [00:01]
Megan Anna
We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.
- [00:23]
Patrick Cassell
From day one, you can expect unlimited customer support through onboarding that sets you up for Success and a 99.99% software reliab that ensures that Jane is always ready to start the day with you.
- [00:36]
Megan Anna
Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features so you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.
- [00:49]
Patrick Cassell
If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the Code DC Pod at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell. And I'm Dr. Neff and during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects mental health and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone, it's Patrick from Divergent Conversations. Megan, Anna and I are embarking upon our seasonal break. It has been a long year for both of us as it has for all of you. We've decided to take our end of the year break a little bit early and re release some of our favorite episodes from 2025. We really appreciate all of your support. We appreciate all of you who listen, download, share and continuously send us feedback. We really appreciate our sponsors, Landmark College and Jane App for Healthcare. You two have been in our corners basically the entire year. We will see you on the other side. We hope everyone has a healthy, safe, happy New Year. Foreign. Welcome back. After a long extended hiatus and break on Divergent Conversations, we are finally batch recording a new season and doing things very differently going forward. So where was I going with that? I don't know, but thanks for still continuing to follow Engage Support. We got a lot of messages while we were away about all of our RE releases. For some of you who have listened to those episodes multiple times and still find a lot of good insight and information and support so that Makes me feel really, like, good about continuing to put this content out into the world. And Megan Anna and I are in weird headspaces right now, specifically me. So I'm just going to name that I've saved all of my energy for this next hour and a half.
- [03:18]
Megan Anna
Which feels like a bit of pressure to me. I'm like, oh, like, all of your juicing, all of the ounces of energy out of you for this conversation, and that feels like a little bit of a sacred gift, not just to me, but also to our listeners in the sense of, I do know Uranus season of really low energy. And so it's like, okay, here's the one thing I'm going to do today.
- [03:43]
Patrick Cassell
I appreciate that. And no pressure needed. Like, weirdly, I feel the pressure where I'm like, low energy. Am I going to bring anything to the table? That's where my mind immediately goes. Like, I don't want Megan Anna to have to deal with the heavy lifting, so to speak.
- [03:57]
Megan Anna
I. I kind of though, like, love that about our friendship and our dynamic here is. Yeah, like, that's the reality of being neurodivergent. Right. Is like, you saw me through the fall when I, like, I had very limited energy for work, and you've seen me in intense brain fog when I can, like, barely put words into cohesive sentences. Like, and I mean, I think it's tough when we're probably both in a downspot, but that's part of being in relationship. That's part of interdependence. Is like, yeah, you. You're low right now. I have a bit more energy, and often it's the reverse of that.
- [04:37]
Patrick Cassell
Totally. Yeah. That's such a great reframe for me, which I love about you. That's a really good perspective, honestly, and I think that's so important. Wonderful segue, by the way, into really what we want this next season and series to be about.
- [04:55]
Megan Anna
See, even in your fatigue, you've still got the social ligaments. Just you go.
- [05:01]
Patrick Cassell
Thank you. Yes, I do have the social ligaments. I think that's what we want this to be about. Right. Like, we bounced ideas off of why we wanted to take a break, and we'll. We'll talk about that in a second. But we want to be more intentional. We want to take more breaks. You mentioned having more feminine energy in the podcast in terms of how we structure, how we schedule. We wanted to do collections, Megan's word. And I think we wanted to start off with wellness, and we acknowledge that there is so much Going on right now in the world, in this country, in the autism spaces especially. And we want to. We're going to, you know, talk in a nuanced way, as we always try to do, and as we're both existing and trying to figure out things for ourselves.
- [05:57]
Megan Anna
That's really well said. Yeah, it's interesting. We have a lot of themes that we talked about and that we'd like to do, because I think our thinking right now is we'll do, like, 12 episodes a season and release a few seasons a year. And we definitely want to get into some of the complexity and heaviness that's happening. But we wanted to set the. The tone with wellness, because that's partly why we took the break. Was I. I think I reached out to you and I was like, I am not. It was in middle of all of. So folks who, like, no neurodivergent insights might know this. Folks that don't know is like, I did a website migration. My website's very huge. It went terribly, horribly wrong. And I, like, for the first time was like, am I gonna have to, like, close my business? Cause I've. I've got four employees at this point. Like, we depend a lot on website visits and sales, and that was a very stressful time. And everything was happening. Well, not everything was happening politically, like, because it keeps happening, but it was. It was in a moment where there's a lot happening politically. And I just. I. I was shutting down. Like, I can't handle being perceived right now. Um, and I needed a break, and I, like, reached out and I knew that was a hard ask, and then thought through, what would it look like to embody the things that we want to help other people see around? How do we do wellness, especially amidst all that people are navigating right now?
- [07:35]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. I know that was a really, really stressful time for you for so many reasons, with the website migration, with all the issue that came with it. Because I saw a lot of the behind the scenes of it. I mean, and then having the financial burden, plus just the. You've worked so hard to create it. To see that come, like, crumbling down at something that wasn't your fault is really frustrating. And you feel kind of powerless in that, you know, as well. And I think it.
- [08:07]
Megan Anna
Fragility. Yeah, Like, I encountered fragility in a way that, like, I. That. And I hate that feeling.
- [08:13]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I. I can't imagine feeling like, am I gonna have to close up shop because of something that you know, should have been pretty routine and I, I felt, you know, we can speak candidly, I suppose, on here about this experience, but I felt really guilty because I gave you the referral for that and it felt horrible. You know, you're a, you're a friend and I saw all of this happening behind the scenes and it really was a painful experience. And it sounds like there were some lessons in it too.
- [08:46]
Megan Anna
Yeah. And I like, that's one thing. And I don't mean this in a toxic positive way, like so. And yeah, you know, in psychology, especially around like hard things, sometimes you talk about meaning making. And I like that to me has always been the thing that helps me is like going to meaning making. And maybe it's sometimes when I've effed up, like when I've stepped in it and I've done something that I feel really guilty or shameful about, it's like, okay, what do I, what's the invitation for me to learn and grow and do better? Because then there's meaning making in it. That's like the one thing that will calm down my ocd, to be honest, because I am so guilt prone and rumination prone.
- [09:28]
Patrick Cassell
Sure.
- [09:28]
Megan Anna
And same thing with this, with this stuff is like, okay, there's gotta be some invitation in here toward growth if I see it. And again, not to bypass like all of the other negative emotions that came with it. But the thing for me, and I think it does connect to this wellness and even to how we started, was interdependence of. I've over the last four years, two years, built up really strong digital walls around me because my nervous system could not handle being perceived, being exposed, the feedback, even, like, I'm always open to call ins, but like just the level of feedback and being perceived was so much for me. But what I realized in that process was I'd also blocked out like people's kindness and appreciation and I needed community support and I invited it. And I like, I like cried from joy and like, of this, of like, oh my gosh, people have me. And as someone who's very hyper independent, it was such a beautiful breakthrough moment for me of like, okay, there is another way to do this, to do this whole human thing, to do this whole community thing. And I think like, back to you and me, but also back to our community. When I think about all we're navigating, like the way forward is going to be through interdependence. It's going to, through community. It's going to be through building like grassroots Movement and connections where it's like we've got each other, we've got each other in this.
- [11:04]
Patrick Cassell
Absolutely. That's really well said. And it's, you know, I think when we think of wellness, it's interested to see where people's minds go when they first hear that word. But it's holistic. Right. Like we have to really take a zoom out approach and, and look at a lot of the different things that impact us on a, on a cellular level, on a micro level, on a macro level, like on a community based level. There's so much that goes into wellness and I think I want to just applaud you on air. As you just said. I don't like being perceived for asking for a break because I think that took a lot for you and to say, hey, I want to shift the way we're going to do this if we're going to continue going forward.
- [11:52]
Megan Anna
And yeah, do, do we want to, like, especially I feel like we're kind of, we're talking about wellness and we're kind of getting into community and connection, which we didn't know how we were going to start. But I love that actually we're starting on like interdependence.
- [12:08]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, we.
- [12:09]
Megan Anna
Do you feel comfortable talking about our exchange and like the attachment reaction you had and then like how we navigated that? Because I actually think, first of all, I'm really proud of us for how we navigated it and I also think that might be helpful for listeners to hear how like rupture and repair can happen.
- [12:29]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I mean, you did send an email about it after asking.
- [12:32]
Megan Anna
I did, I did not say your name, but people might have intuited.
- [12:37]
Patrick Cassell
Sure. This person that I spend a lot of time with creating these things with.
- [12:42]
Megan Anna
The one, the one friend I have in my life.
- [12:45]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, of course I'm happy to talk about it. I don't think we need to go into like black and white specifics about like everything. But yes, I think let's talk about what, what that was like for both of us. So like.
- [12:57]
Megan Anna
Yeah. Or go ahead. Yeah. Like, so you get my like long ass voice memo. And first of all, like your headspace, like just all of our headspace are just messed up at this point. Um.
- [13:10]
Patrick Cassell
Mm. And.
- [13:12]
Megan Anna
And what happens to you when you get that voice memo?
- [13:15]
Patrick Cassell
Okay, I get long ass voice memo. I think it was like seven minutes.
- [13:19]
Megan Anna
Long, which you've told me before, like, do not send me longer than two minute voice memos. I cannot do that.
- [13:25]
Patrick Cassell
I can't typically like listen and Process it, you know, to. To a lot of audio messaging. So after two minutes, that's usually my cutoff. But I listen to the whole thing. I was like, damn, did I just really listen to seven minute voice memo? So I listened to the memo. I'm out with some friends. Maybe we are partaking in some alcoholic beverages. Maybe not. I don't. But nevertheless, not an excuse for my reaction whatsoever. But that was definitely the headspace I was in. And I think I got the voicemail. I was like, hey, I think. I don't remember how you phrased it. I would need to. I would need to remember that correctly. But it was something like about taking a break, right. From Divergent Conversations. And I think you even mentioned, like, when I see it pop up on my calendar, it's really stressful. It's really overwhelming. It causes me a lot of angst in a lot of ways. And I was just like, whoa. In my immediate reaction. It was like attachment wound, abandonment stuff. Insecurity. Right. What I was experiencing was like, Megan Anna. And I'm gonna prioritize saying Megan Anna for the rest of this season. I just want everyone to hear that Megan Anna is apparently going to prioritize less cursing because I already heard you say F up. And I'm going to prioritize saying your name the way you want it. You want it stated. I experience like, Megan Anna doesn't want to do this with me and doesn't like me. That is what happens so viscerally for me. I was like, yeah. They are telling me that this project that we kind of, I wouldn't say put blood, sweat and tears into, but.
- [14:59]
Megan Anna
We'Ve put a lot into.
- [15:00]
Patrick Cassell
A lot into it.
- [15:01]
Megan Anna
Yeah.
- [15:02]
Patrick Cassell
Is something that they are no longer interested in being a part of. And that just hurts so bad in that moment. And it was more about. I think I was grieving the loss of friendship and not really so much of project because ultimately project is great and I'm glad of what we've. I'm proud of what we've created honestly in the last two years. But if it came to an end today, I would be. There would be some grief, but it would be more about the grief of the, the connection and the relationship. That would be the heaviest hitting grief for me.
- [15:34]
Megan Anna
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And once you said that because, like. And then it kind of. Which happens with attachment. Yeah. It like became about like a technical thing. And then I was like, whoa, I. I don't feel recognized here. And like then we were texting, which is. And it Was this is like the only time we had a text exchange where, like, I started to feel some heat in my body. Like, I feel.
- [15:55]
Patrick Cassell
So.
- [15:58]
Megan Anna
Yeah. And. But I think we caught it pretty quickly. And. And we got on the phone because. And then it was like we were able to get to like, okay, what is happening here? Because it's obviously not about this conversation that's happening at the surface. And I think this is what's so important about, like, attachment wounds is. So I. If we were to map this out, I expressed a need and I didn't. I didn't think on attachment impact it would have for you. Like, in part of this is my weird stuff is I just. I have this pervasive narrative that, like, I'm not that important. So, like, it would not even occur to me that, like, I could activate an attachment wound in you, which is like a weird. I realize that's a really weird thing to say, especially because we've talked about attachment. I know these things.
- [16:41]
Patrick Cassell
Sure.
- [16:42]
Megan Anna
So that's not even in my mind.
- [16:44]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [16:46]
Megan Anna
You experience that attachment wound, your defenses come online. Because that's what happens to all of us when our attachment system. And I think us being us and us having the connection we do. We were. We were able to catch it and be like, what's going on? But so often this is what spirals. Someone expresses a need, attachment injury defenses come up, and then that activates the other person's defenses, and then you're off in a rupture that no one understands. And it's so painful. It's so painful.
- [17:14]
Patrick Cassell
It was painful for me. And I. I think if I can speak for you, you probably would say it was painful for you in the 30 minutes that it took place.
- [17:24]
Megan Anna
So if that totally.
- [17:25]
Patrick Cassell
That had been prolonged or we never repaired.
- [17:29]
Megan Anna
Never repaired. Can you imagine if our friendship ended in that way?
- [17:35]
Patrick Cassell
No, that would have. And it would have been, you know, 99% my fault in that moment. And I would have felt so guilty and ashamed of that for reacting in a way that is just not typically me. And I'm experiencing a lot of grief right now, as is. So, like, I'm getting emotional thinking about this. But, yeah, I would have. I would have had a really hard time living with myself for the next couple months, you know.
- [18:02]
Megan Anna
So you would have. That's interesting you. Because I feel like for some of us are, like, defenses would come up and the. And the narrative would become one of anger. Like, Megan, Anna is so unfair. She. But you would have. It would have been like, I fucked.
- [18:17]
Patrick Cassell
Up oh, you cursed.
- [18:19]
Megan Anna
I would have you happy.
- [18:22]
Patrick Cassell
I would have went straight shame spiral because I have enough insight and awareness to understand that that was my emotion that I was projecting onto you, and it wasn't fair for me to do that in that moment. There was obviously other contexts that we could have talked through in a different way, but that reaction was mine and not yours to receive, especially as you were going through the. That you were going through. So, yeah, I would have went straight shame spiral. Like, I would have, like, am I. My, like, attachment ruptures typically end in like, significant shame spiral, but also significant, like, pulling away. And not just pulling away from our ability to repair, but just pulling away from life, like, existing and more so in like deep, dark depression and self hatred.
- [19:13]
Megan Anna
Yeah, yeah. No, I. I mean, I relate to that deeply. Of. And it's. There's also this. I. I've lately been wondering if it's like, kind of connected to ocd, but also, like, feels like an autistic thing. So there's some question on a measure I think of, like, basically the idea of if something is a little bit tainted, it's ruined. So, like, if there's a scuff on a boot, it's like, oh, those boots are ruined. Or there's a stain on a shirt that's ruined. And I've got some of that thinking. And it's easy for that to creep into friendships, but it's especially bad when it's like, I've been the one to do something wrong and it's like, well, I ruined that friendship, so I just need to throw it away and start over from scratch, where I can be the perfect relational being and not hurt that person at all.
- [20:02]
Patrick Cassell
Sure.
- [20:02]
Megan Anna
Which of course never happens. But there is that mindset of like, well, that's ruined now.
- [20:08]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [20:09]
Megan Anna
So. So that goes away.
- [20:10]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So anyway, fast forward to now. That was like two months ago, right? Maybe two months. Yeah. And Ireland in March.
- [20:24]
Megan Anna
I don't know your feeling, but, like, I felt so much closer to you afterwards because we could work through it and we understood it and we're like, wow, we're. Our brains are fascinating.
- [20:34]
Patrick Cassell
And it's, you know, it's another good prime example, right, where I hate talking on the phone. As I just said, like, I hate voice memos in general. I hate audio processing because it's so hard for me. Talking on the phone really helped us, like, immediately repair that. Opposed to we continued texting back and forth. I think things would have, like, things would not have ended well.
- [20:58]
Megan Anna
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It would not. And. And that's such a good, like, reminder of, like, okay, when people are getting into a hot exchange. First of all, what's. What is it actually about? Is it about the thing or is there a story and an injury happening underneath the thing? And then, like, how do you get back to connection?
- [21:23]
Patrick Cassell
Right, yeah, for sure. Because I think for a lot of you listening, you might think, like, oh, man, I've had this experience so many times and I could see myself in it, or I've talked about it with the person and it never repaired. And I think there is a risk of that sometimes happening. Right. Of, like, free and. And post rupture, you even might have that, like, repair conversation. But really, maybe both people aren't in the same space and able to give the same energy and desire to the repair.
- [21:53]
Megan Anna
Yeah. And that's painful. And that's something to grieve when it's like, there's been a rupture and you can. You can't do all the work. A person can only meet you halfway. And such a big piece of it is this meta awareness piece we're talking about, of can we get to the conversation underneath the conversation? And when there's not the capacity for that, it does make repair a lot harder because we get pulled back into the content. And then that makes it so much more difficult to do that repair work. And we can't. If someone can't meet us there, they can't meet us there, and that's painful.
- [22:32]
Patrick Cassell
Great. And you met me halfway in that situation because I kept saying via text, like, knowing that you were getting hotter and hotter, like, via text. Can we please just talk about this on the phone? Like, I feel like some of this is getting really misconstrued. But at first you were like, no, I'll just talk to you when I get. When you get back from Ireland in like a month. And I was like, yeah, we don't talk right now.
- [22:56]
Megan Anna
That's my attachment. Like, that was my attachment stuff. Right? So I've talked about being avoidant. So I felt hurt in that moment. And then it was like, you're like, we'll start this. Like, go to Ireland. We'll sort this. Like, yeah, that was my avoidant. That was my avoidant coming out.
- [23:14]
Patrick Cassell
Hey, everyone, it's Patrick, One half of Divergent Conversations. Some of you may know that I own a group therapy practice in North Carolina, Resilient Mind Counseling. We specialize in supporting the neurodivergent LGBTQIA and black, brown, and Asian communities online and across North Carolina. We also have limited in person openings at our offices in Asheville and Cary. We really love working with clients who are coming to terms with both autism and ADHD discoveries later in life or questioning, as well as the intersections of race, gender identity and orientation. All of our therapists have lived, experience and identify as adhd, autistic or adhd. Our team of affirming therapists offers a safe, anti racist, anti oppressive, inclusive and accessible space where you can show up exactly as you are. No masking, no judgment and no need to make eye contact. Just real connection and healing. We accept most commercial insurances like Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United, Aetna and Medcost as well as self pay options. We currently have openings for new clients and you can visit our website@resilientmindcounseling.com and if you would prefer, you can either text or call to get started to our HIPAA compliant phone line at 828-515-1246. You can also email us at schedulingisiliantmindcounseling.com and then eventually we're like, no, let's do that. And I just felt so, like you said, honestly, so much closer to you. And Arielle had asked me when I came back in the room, she's like, are you okay? And I, I didn't really give her the context in that moment, but I know that like I would not have been able to sleep that night if we didn't actually speak, regardless of what the outcome was going to be. I knew like, if it was, if we left that conversation in that text form, I was going to ruminate that on that and obsess on that all freaking night.
- [25:12]
Megan Anna
Yeah. And I would have, like, I would have had stress dreams and I would have. So I would have been, okay, I'm not proud about this, but like, I would have been, I think, ruminating in like a bit of anger of like, and kind of done some of the victim mindset stuff. And then I would have been like, I, I would have amped that up and I would have been getting angrier and angrier at you.
- [25:34]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [25:35]
Megan Anna
And then I would have probably built a really unfair narrative in my head around that, which would have then made that repair work so much more to dig out of than like catching it right away and hopping on and getting to the conversation underneath.
- [25:51]
Patrick Cassell
Yep, agreed.
- [25:52]
Megan Anna
So, so wellness tip number one, get to the like, catch. Catch it when your attachment system is activated.
- [26:00]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [26:01]
Megan Anna
Get to the conversation underneath.
- [26:03]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [26:03]
Megan Anna
And if, if it's safe to do so. And there's capacity there, like connect with the person, but not on the, like, content conversation, whatever it is. I feel like it might be helpful. I'm not going to go into details. I just feel like it might be helpful because people, like, what do you mean by content? It became about, for us, it became about finances and the podcast and like, who contributed what. And so that was the content conversation that like, so if we'd stayed at that content, we weren't actually talking about what was happening. That's. That was just. That was the vehicle that our attachment stuff was using for sure.
- [26:36]
Patrick Cassell
And for a lot of you, like, you've heard me talk about. I mean, I think we both talk about our own money stuff on here at times, but money is so triggering for me. It brings me back to like gambling addiction days. It brings me back to like self worth. Like, it's so shame based in so many ways. So, like, yeah, if we would have st stayed in that content, we never really would have gotten to the real, like, meat of the issue or what was actually happening for both of us behind the scenes.
- [27:09]
Megan Anna
Yeah. And that's what happens often with these dynamics is you get pulled into some content. And yes, it's kind of about the content, but it's typically like, typically that's just like the signal to whatever's happening under. Underneath.
- [27:23]
Patrick Cassell
For sure.
- [27:24]
Megan Anna
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Wellness tip one, get to the story beneath, know when it's happening and then like, if capacity, like connect because. And so this is also. And this is part of the reflection cause. Yeah. That newsletter where I, I wrote about this was because of the climate we're all living in, people's nervous systems are activated.
- [27:46]
Patrick Cassell
Yep.
- [27:47]
Megan Anna
Where a lot of us, like, our threat signals are all over the place for good reason, but it means that there's going to be more misunderstandings because our nervous system is looking for threat signals. So something like I want to take a pause from the podcast or a partner being like, no, I don't want to go on that walk with you right now. Like, which maybe at normal base level might be okay. Like, if our nervous systems are looking for threats, we're going to start seeing attachment threats from like neutral, Neutral stimuli.
- [28:19]
Patrick Cassell
Absolutely. Yeah. You've kind of talked about this a bit in your. Some, some recent content that you've put out too. Like getting past the content phase and not focusing in on that content phase in regards to how you even react or people react on social media in search situations. Right. So.
- [28:39]
Megan Anna
Yeah, I think so. Wait, say more about what you mean?
- [28:42]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, I think you were. Maybe I'm misremembering it and it could totally be. I thought you had made some content recently about like getting past initial like meaning. Because there's. There can be so much like disagreement and arguing and autism advocates pieces.
- [28:57]
Megan Anna
Yeah.
- [28:58]
Patrick Cassell
Like sometimes we have to like give each other grace and like.
- [29:01]
Megan Anna
Yeah.
- [29:02]
Patrick Cassell
Permission to be accountable and responsive and apologetic too.
- [29:06]
Megan Anna
Yeah. Like kind of zooming out. Yeah, always. This is kind of like my thing. Patrick is like always, always zooming out from the content to be like, what is happening here and what's going to anchor us in understanding. So. Yeah, the essay I wrote this last weekend was on. It was a. It was. It was definitely a very Megan Anna, like ideation, happy place of connecting many different theories. But the idea of putting out a neurodivergent identity development model of like when we're integrating this new identity, especially if we're white, especially if we are later in life identified, there's kind of a typical developmental arc that happens.
- [29:43]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [29:44]
Megan Anna
And when we're in the early phases, like an immersion phase of like, I feel so connected to autistic pride and I feel so seen in this. It can be easy when we're in that space to comment in ways that. Where we might be missing things or we might hurt other people. Like for example, you know, saying things like when RFK is saying terrible things. He's not talking about me as an autistic person, he's talking about others. Like that kind of thing. Which you've also. You also talked about on social media, how that's actually really painful to divide ourselves in that way.
- [30:21]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. Yep. Maybe we'll do an episode on this. Yeah, probably should.
- [30:26]
Megan Anna
I mean it connects to today's. If today's theme is wellness through interconnection. Like it connects of how do like we as a community right now there's so many painful things happening and part of what I'm seeing, I'm not on there a lot, but part of what I'm seeing is a lot of fracturing and that's what happens. But it's. How do we as a community come together, pull together and also like show the world a different way of being?
- [30:53]
Patrick Cassell
For sure, 100%. Yeah. It was that identity arc newsletter you put out and made some posts about and I thought that was really good. And just the acknowledgement of as you go through your maybe potential discovery phases are going to be different, like layers to that as well and different developments and things you might want to walk back or Things you wouldn't say. I think I've said it on here too. Like I, I totally like at first bought into like the kryptonite superpower narrative and trope. And fast forward to now. I would never say those things.
- [31:29]
Megan Anna
Yeah.
- [31:29]
Patrick Cassell
But four years ago, five years ago, I was like, I didn't really know any differently at the time and I thought I was doing the right thing.
- [31:37]
Megan Anna
And that's developmentally appropriate. Which is why I love models. Because it's like, it's not like shame on you, Patrick. It's like, of course you did. That's the developmental arc way is you go from not knowing anything about this to like, oh my gosh, my whole life makes sense and kind of an idealized. And that's something. So I, I had a conversation with Callie last week, the black Spectrum scholar. And one thing that they said was have self compassion for wherever you are in the developmental arc. And in that context she was speaking on racism. But it would also apply to like ableism. And I love that of we actually can't make progress in being anti racist or anti ableist from a place of shame. We have to do it from a place of self compassion. And if we see it as this is a developmental arc, then I can more easily have compassion for wherever I.
- [32:31]
Patrick Cassell
Am on that arc, a hundred percent. And that ties directly into wellness. And I think that arc. Right. That ability to have self compassion, whether it's anti racism, anti ableism, um, whatever arc that is. If you're in that shame space, you're much less likely to be involved in community because you're probably less, less likely to put opinion or statement or fact or thought out there because you're so concerned about how it is going to be received. Opposed to being able to be accountable, apologetic and learn from mistake. Which I think is super important as we're going through some of this trajectory too, is like being accountable, being apologetic and truly learning from mistake. Because I think so often we are going to say something that we're like, oh, that wasn't exactly landing the way that I intended for it to land.
- [33:24]
Megan Anna
And that's. Right. That's where it gets into like the accountability piece. And the learning of shame shuts us down.
- [33:30]
Patrick Cassell
Right.
- [33:30]
Megan Anna
And, and then, and then we're not very helpful to the people we've hurt.
- [33:35]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [33:36]
Megan Anna
When that happens.
- [33:38]
Patrick Cassell
Yep. So wellness. I think this is a good like gateway into whatever this series is going to look like.
- [33:50]
Megan Anna
And should we talk about that for a minute?
- [33:53]
Patrick Cassell
Yes, we should do that.
- [33:55]
Megan Anna
Look at, see social ligaments you still got it.
- [33:58]
Patrick Cassell
One thing that I just have deeply ingrained in who I am. Yeah.
- [34:03]
Megan Anna
Yeah. I don't know how you, like. I, like, marvel at people who can do that because it's not my strength.
- [34:10]
Patrick Cassell
Where I'm, like, peripheral. Keeping an eye on the time.
- [34:13]
Megan Anna
Yeah.
- [34:15]
Patrick Cassell
Keeping my one active brain cell on conversation.
- [34:21]
Megan Anna
So you're doing. You feel engaged to me. Like, I feel immersed and I. I can tell when I feel immersed in conversation. And I feel. I feel like we're both in it.
- [34:33]
Patrick Cassell
We say this so often when we haven't, like, seen each other in person for a while and then we, like, drop in the conversation and it makes me just feel really connected to you.
- [34:44]
Megan Anna
Same, same.
- [34:45]
Patrick Cassell
Like texting. I've been in New Zealand, I've been in Ireland. We've been texting. But, like.
- [34:49]
Megan Anna
Yeah, yeah. So that's actually also, like, maybe part of wellness and community is, like, thinking through how we connect. Because I think it's. It's actually really easy. I avoid synchronous meetings like the plague. Like, but then when they happen, like, even with my team, it's actually, I need to work on this because I do a lot of async meetings where I just send a video. And then when I actually meet with them, I'm like, we will generate ideas from that that wouldn't have been generated otherwise. Or like, you and me, we. We do stay pretty connected. We text, I think, pretty much every day. But this felt experience right now is so qualitatively different. And, like, I feel a different energy, a different groundedness in my body. And so. But I'm always going to have so much demand avoidance if I have a meeting on my schedule. So being able to remind myself, yeah, I'm going to have demand avoidance when it's this kind of social interaction. And I also actually know that that kind of social interaction is really important for my wellness.
- [35:50]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, it is one of those both ends for me as well. I avoid meetings as much as humanly possible, and when I see them on my calendar, I think of every way I can get out of them. I actually canceled podcast this morning. It was like, I don't want to. I can't do this right now because it was with people I didn't really know. And it would have been a different back and forth. I would have had to drive the ship a lot more. And I just wasn't in that headspace this morning. But, like, I do have to remind myself, too. Even with my team meetings, with my staff, at Resilient Mind Counseling, Like, I dread meetings, but then when we're all in one space, I'm like, it's kind of nice to see everyone's face and like actually be able to speak to you in these in this capacity. So, yeah, myself too.
- [36:37]
Megan Anna
We don't always want to do the things that are good for us. I think that's a good thing. That's what I have in mind. Yeah.
- [36:46]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. I mean, take it from two licensed mental health professionals when we can tell you that it's really sometimes hard to practice what we preach.
- [36:56]
Megan Anna
So I actually, I have a like colleague. It's interesting. We actually went to the same doctoral program in psychology and he like, he was diagnosed in childhood. So and it was kind of like it was kind of a big deal for an autistic person to be going through a doctoral program in psychology. So we briefly knew each other then, but we've reconnected since. And he is a framework I love. I shared this. He. I posted it to Neurodivergent Insights. He has a, I think this feels like a very autistic thing. The ability to just like conceptualize ideas in ways that are like, oh yeah, now that makes sense. But he talks about self care as like two types. They're self soothing. So like when we're like in active distress or sensory overwhelm, it's the things like it feels good. So maybe that, that might be binge watching Netflix. It might be like sensory soothing. It might be. I mean for me it'd be a hot shower. I know showers are like hated for some autistic people. So self soothing, it's easy to do, it feels good to do it. And then there's self nourishment which we have a little bit more friction around doing. But it's the things that's good for us. So it might be like making that green smoothie, trying to get more nutrient dense food into us, doing the movement, prioritizing sleep. And I just find that framework for self care so helpful. And then the idea is if we have too much of one and not of the other, then we might feel off balance. So the question of, okay, which maybe I need more self soothing in my life or actually maybe I've gone so much to self soothing and I actually need some of that self nourishment. I'm actually going to meet with Patrick and see my friend, even though I've got to man avoidance, that kind of thing.
- [38:33]
Patrick Cassell
That's a great framework. I like that a lot. Yeah, that self soothing piece comes much more naturally for Me, for sure. I think I default into it. Same sometimes to the point where it's like, this might, this is maybe becoming problematic for this week or this month, but I just allow it to be that way.
- [38:55]
Megan Anna
I mean, this is a month. I think a lot of us need a lot of self soothing and you, you especially.
- [39:00]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. So, but that self nourishment piece, really trying to keep that in perspective when we look at our calendars or when we think about what we say yes and no to. And it goes back to like something you say a lot and I can't remember how you frame it. It's like that cost benefit analysis piece you've talked about. Like with, okay, if I go do this activity with the family, it's a high values event, but it's going to cost me a significant amount. Right. It's kind of in that regard, looking at it from that lens for self nourishment for me. Sometimes when I'm like, okay, I should go take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood and get out of my house because I haven't left the house in five days. And like, I, I resist it, I resist it, I resist it and then I do it for like 20 minutes. I'm like, do you feel a little bit better?
- [39:55]
Megan Anna
Like, you were right.
- [39:57]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [39:57]
Megan Anna
And it's that. So that feedback loop, which I would also tap and put in the meta awareness bucket, is so important because especially if it is a higher friction activity, there's not gonna be as much momentum or motivation to do it. So then when it's like, okay, that did feel better. So same thing for me. Like, I recently got a walking treadmill and my default would be to use while I work. My default would be like, it's more comfortable on the couch, but I know my energy is better. If I use the walking treadmill, I know I feel better. And so, and then when I am having that resistance, I'll remind myself, okay, yesterday you were in the spot and you did it and you felt better.
- [40:36]
Patrick Cassell
Right? That's, that's a good way to like reframe back to that and anchor back into that too. To like say, like, okay, like here's some actual evidence you did feel better literally yesterday when you did this thing. Yeah, Yeah, I like that. That as well.
- [40:52]
Megan Anna
So, okay, I'm. Now I'm feeling the antsy time or we are going to wrap this conversation up. So I have two thoughts. One, I want to like hear what you're hoping for. That we'll explore in this series, that's one and then two. I thought maybe I'd mentioned substack because we've been talking about community so much.
- [41:07]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [41:08]
Megan Anna
And our thoughts around that. Which one do you want to.
- [41:11]
Patrick Cassell
Is that what's happening?
- [41:11]
Megan Anna
No, no. First, first I'm saying we have two things. Two bullet list things to talk about until my brain is not itchy, then we can close the episode.
- [41:21]
Patrick Cassell
Hear that? Because it's always a fun experience for me.
- [41:23]
Megan Anna
It is a fun experience. Hi. If you like us, go like us.
- [41:30]
Patrick Cassell
Okay, so, yes, number one, what am I hoping to get out of this? It's not even just about the Wellness Explorer. Yeah. I think I, I just want to have. I'm. I'm excited to, to kind of do this podcast in a way that is, is kind of the epitome of like what wellness is in a lot of ways, which is boundary setting, asking for what you need, doing things in a way that maximizes your energy. So things like if we're going to batch seasons in like a week and a half, two weeks and then have extended time off, I am personally excited for that. To say, like, hell yes. I love batching for that reason. Also, I want to really honor what you want and need. And for me, wellness is sometimes that like doing for others and friendship and acknowledging like what someone you care about wants and needs in. In relationship. That for me is really important. And then I like just tangible tips, strategies, action tips that I'll never implement in my own life. But it's fun to talk about.
- [42:36]
Megan Anna
It's fun to give other people advice.
- [42:37]
Patrick Cassell
Sure.
- [42:38]
Megan Anna
Do these things.
- [42:38]
Patrick Cassell
I'll leave these, these meetings and be like, yeah, you know what, that was a really good point. And then end up on the couch watching Lord of the Rings or basketball.
- [42:47]
Megan Anna
I feel like such a contradiction being in the like, I guess I am pretty much in the wellness space of like, yeah, like a lot of this stuff I totally struggle to implement. I struggled to implement it consistently. I would say, yeah, so same thing, which is very adhd. And then we have to again having self compassion for that of like, yeah, that is going to be hard 100%.
- [43:08]
Patrick Cassell
What about you?
- [43:09]
Megan Anna
I mean, I love what you said about like just embodying the wellness and almost treating it as like a living lab. I love that kind of stuff where it's like, let's try this and talk about it and reflect on it. I, I'm didn't like community wasn't the first thing that came to my mind when we were like, let's talk about neurodivergent wellness. But I love that it did. Cause it has been on my mind a lot this year. And so I'm just kind of excited. This conversation's felt really alive and I'm just excited to see what comes of it. I don't yet have a bullet list of like, okay, we'll do an episode on this, this, and this, but I'm sure it'll come.
- [43:46]
Patrick Cassell
So.
- [43:46]
Megan Anna
Yeah, I'm just excited that we're having this conversation right now because it really matters. And one of the things we talked about was we're not going to do guests for the season, which you and I both have noticed. That feels like a. We appreciate it. We learn so much from our guests and it is a heavier, cognitive, energetic lift for both of us.
- [44:08]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah.
- [44:09]
Megan Anna
So I'm excited just to like nerd out and talk with you a lot over the next two weeks.
- [44:14]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah, you keep texting me, like, you're gonna get sick of me. You're gonna get sick of me. I'm like, okay, Did I. Yeah, you've.
- [44:20]
Megan Anna
Said, oh, well, my. It's because I'm like, really in a like boppy energy right now. And you're not. And if I was low and someone I was in relationship had a lot of energy, that to me would be sensory overwhelming.
- [44:35]
Patrick Cassell
I appreciate your. Your trying to look out for me from that perspective. I don't know. Am I ever in a boppy energy? Just curiosity wise, Maybe more than now, but not probably like up, up.
- [44:47]
Megan Anna
I don't. Yeah, I don't know that I've seen you up.
- [44:51]
Patrick Cassell
Me neither would be nice.
- [44:55]
Megan Anna
Well, maybe. Maybe it'll rub off. Maybe my boppy energy will rub off on you.
- [45:00]
Patrick Cassell
So next week, what are you doing?
- [45:03]
Megan Anna
So over the last couple years, we've been like, we should do this, we should do this. We should do this for Divergent conversations. And one of them is like, do we start a Patreon? Do we. And do we start a whole, like a big community? And then my brain always wants to make it bigger and then we don't do anything. Um, we're really fun to work together. Um, but I like, I've part of another thing that came of like the website migration was. I was just like, I just want to get on substack. Cause it feels like a different culture. It feels. If my website's going to go down, like, it feels. I don't know. I just. It. I just felt the pull. And I've really enjoyed the community and the culture there. And so one quote that I've shared quite a bit. I can't remember if I've said it here yet or not. Probably not because we haven't recorded. Um, it's from Adrienne Marie Brown. I'm reading Emergent Strategy right now, which is all about transformational justice and community. And there's a quote in there about what if instead of building mile wide inch deep communities, we built inch wild inch wide mile deep communities. So been thinking a lot about community and I know a lot of folks I think have had interest around like Divergent Conversations and where do I go continue this conversation? So. But we've also both been very burnt out. So anyways, we've talked about starting a substack where we're not exactly sure what it'll look like, but where it would be a place where people could continue the conversation in community. So it's not just them listening to us have a conversation.
- [46:36]
Patrick Cassell
Yeah. And I think that feels like almost the most natural transition point in this, in this like, container because like you said, we floated a lot of ideas around. Some of them we like kind of quarter the way maybe started a little bit and then didn't start. So it does feel like a natural place for, for these conversations and connections and communities to continue to, to grow. Because it's really hard for both Megan, Anna and I to respond to messages on Instagram or on email or all of the places. And although we really appreciate all of the love and support and acknowledgement and questions and all the things, it's just too many places to be checking and responding in. So it would be much easier to do so in a nice, like, cultivated, curated community in that way.
- [47:30]
Megan Anna
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [47:32]
Patrick Cassell
Okay. So we are so glad to be back and we're glad that you're with us listening and supporting and hopefully staying as safe as possible right now. And Divergent Conversation episodes are on all major platforms and YouTube on Fridays and you can like download, subscribe and share.
- [48:00]
Megan Anna
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that that Neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources. Freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's gonna be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid. You can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.