Episode 139: FLASHBACK — Autistic Grief and Wellness: Holding Space for Hard Emotions

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Divergent Conversations
Episode 139: FLASHBACK — Autistic Grief and Wellness: Holding Space for Hard Emotions
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale
Release Date: January 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This emotionally resonant episode revisits a powerful and raw conversation between neurodivergent therapists Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale. In the context of their “Neurodivergent Wellness” series, they take an unfiltered dive into the lived realities of grief, specifically through the lens of autistic and neurodivergent experience. The conversation centers on Patrick's recent loss of his beloved dog Hazel, moving through topics of attachment, community, complex emotions, self-compassion, and the nuances of “wellness” that resist typical positive-washed narratives.

Listeners are cautioned that this is a “heavy one,” with discussions that include pet loss, grief, suicide, and collective trauma—but it’s also affirming, vulnerable, and deeply human.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pet Loss, Attachment, and Autistic Grief

• Patrick’s Loss of Hazel (his dog)

  • Patrick shares deeply about putting Hazel to sleep, noting the particular intensity of the grief, and the important, stabilizing role animals play in his life as an autistic person.
  • Highlights unique autistic attachments to pets, often misunderstood by others, and how pets are “baked into” daily life and regulation rhythms (e.g., shared peanut butter honey toast mornings).
  • Rituals helped honor Hazel’s life; at-home euthanasia, friends visiting, and intentional goodbyes.
  • Grief includes guilt and second-guessing: “I kept thinking, this dog has no idea that Sunday morning is going to be her last day on earth.” (18:13)

• Autistic Sensory & Emotional Regulation via Animals

  • Animals (when not overwhelming) offer co-regulation, sensory soothing, and predictable connection for many autistic people.
  • Patrick reflects: “Spending the last 11 years with her has been nothing but reliability, consistency, knowing exactly what to expect...I cannot understate how valuable that has been for my own mental health.” (05:28)

2. Post-Diagnosis Emotional Flooding & Autistic Grief

• Heightened Emotional Awareness
  • Patrick and Megan discuss how learning about their neurodivergence increased emotional “intensity” and reduced numbness/dissociation, leading to feeling things more deeply and chaotically.
  • Megan: “There was something about...I adapted to the too muchness of the world by dissociating, numbing out...and then reconnected with my body and it’s like, oh, this is a chaotic place to live.” (10:10)

3. Ritualizing Loss, Honoring Grief

• Memory as Attachment
  • Patrick shares replaying visual memories of Hazel: “Those visuals keep flashing through my brain.” (15:47)
  • Megan reflects: “That’s attachment, right? You’re holding on to the attachment through those memories.” (16:03)
• Storytelling as Healing & Humor
  • Patrick recounts a failed “nature retreat” that went awry with Hazel, humor and pain blending into bittersweet memory. (16:03–17:32)

4. Social Complexity of Grief: Scripts, Boundaries, and Demand Avoidance

• Navigating Social Expectations
  • The hosts describe the pressures of social grieving—expectations to reply or reassure, even when inward withdrawal is needed.
  • Megan: “There is a social dynamic to grief and many of us have complex social experiences...In grief I go inward.” (26:18)
  • Patrick identifies demand avoidance: “I almost feel like pressure to respond...then I probably experience some demand avoidance.” (25:20)
• Pragmatic Coping: Grief Scripts & Device Breaks
  • They recommend creating templates (“scripts”) for responding to messages and allowing self permission to not engage.
  • Megan: “Grief scripts...thank you so much for your care. And that’s not even just an autistic thing, like, anyone in grief.” (28:10)

5. Self-Compassion & Reluctance around “Wellness” Language

• The “Little Bitch” Inner Monologue
  • Both hosts highlight the shaming self-narratives that protest vulnerability or being “ungrateful.”
  • Megan: “My mind is just like a little bitch. It’s like, let’s just not be in our grief. Let’s be judgmental about not having capacity to respond.” (29:41)
• Alternative Phrases for Self-Compassion
  • Both prefer pragmatic acceptance (“this is a hard moment”) over flowery, commercialized self-care affirmations.
  • Megan: “My favorite self-compassion statement is, I’ll put my hand on my chest and it’s like, ‘this is a hard moment.’” (37:00)
  • Patrick on standard advice: “Self-compassion? That’s just public technology.” (37:27)

6. Holding Space & Naming Pain

• Directness Over False Positivity
  • Both stress the power of directly naming pain, instead of offering generic platitudes (“everything happens for a reason”).
  • Patrick on what he wanted to hear in medical grief: “I would have much rather heard...‘This sucks. I’m sorry you have to experience this,’ instead of...‘Thoughts and prayers.’” (35:17)
  • Megan: “That is sometimes the most containing, grounding thing, just to name it.” (39:26)

7. Therapy, Suicide, and Cultural Discomfort with Suffering

• Discussing Suicidality Head-On
  • Megan: “It’s not talking about it that increases risk. Research is clear.” (39:33)
  • Both lament that therapists are trained to instantly safety plan or “fix,” pulling away from pain, but what’s healing is “moving toward the pain” and holding it together first (40:14–41:49).

8. Distraction, Agency & Navigating Collective Trauma

• Permission for Distraction and Avoidance
  • The hosts validate distress tolerance and sometimes needing to distract or “contain” overwhelming pain, referencing DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy).
  • Megan: “You’re allowed to feel this. And...if it’s too dysregulating...then it’s okay—we want to take it back a bit...That’s not us abandoning ourselves or being emotional avoiders. That’s us caretaking.” (44:46)
• Information Overload in the Digital Age
  • Exposure to global suffering via phones/social media is overwhelming and not “what our bodies were built for” (47:41). Justice sensitivity, RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria), and empathy compound the effects for neurodivergent people.
  • Patrick: “It is easy to fall into that narrative...get completely absorbed into this stuff 24/7.” (48:13)
• Maintaining Agency & Connection
  • Setting limits on news/social exposure is an act of self and community care, preserving the ability to show up meaningfully.

9. Rethinking “Wellness” and “Self-Care” from a Neurodivergent Lens

• Both hosts express skepticism toward “wellness” as presented in mainstream/whitewashed terms.
  • Megan: “Wellness, self-care, it can often be talked about in this toxic positive, let’s bypass negative emotions and just do these things. And that’s shit advice.” (50:49)
  • Patrick: “My first reaction when I just hear the word wellness...it’s very whitewashed, white-centered—self-care, bubble baths, spa-days—all the things.” (50:49)
• Call for “anti-wellness” or radical, communal notions of wellness—grappling with hardship, connection, and real-life context.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Hazel and I liked to eat peanut butter honey toast most mornings. She would just come over and sit near my feet...She just knew that she was going to get some.” — Patrick (06:16)
• “There was something about…dissociating, numbing out, and then I reconnected with my body and it’s like, oh, this is a chaotic place to live.” — Megan (10:10)
• “Grief is such a complex, beast of an emotional experience...I don’t prescribe to the five stages, but I’ve definitely been experiencing them.” — Patrick (21:12)
• “Our bodies, our brains, our nervous systems were not designed for [constant exposure to suffering].” — Megan (47:41)
• “Robust wellness...is communal, interconnected, it’s moving through the hard stuff...It has to also talk about the hard stuff.” — Megan (50:49)
• “Come as you are. Those are the people we need to be around in our grief.” — Megan (31:45)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Moment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 03:22 | Patrick’s honest update on grief & loss of Hazel | | 06:16 | Describing daily rituals & attachment with Hazel | | 09:05 | Autistic emotional intensity post-diagnosis | | 12:56 | Friendship, boundary setting, & attunement | | 14:35 | The complexity of autistic grief & pet attachment | | 18:13 | Guilt in euthanasia decisions | | 25:20 | Social pressure, demand avoidance, grief scripts | | 29:41 | “My mind is just like a little bitch” — self-critique| | 37:00 | Self-compassion as honest naming (“this is hard”) | | 39:33 | Discussing suicidality: “It’s not talking about it that increases risk” | | 44:46 | Permission to distract or avoid for self-care | | 47:41 | Collective trauma and the limits of human empathy | | 50:49 | Critique of traditional wellness/self-care | | 52:26 | Anti-self-care, radical wellness discussions |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is vulnerable, raw, deeply affirming, and interspersed with irreverent, humorous self-awareness. Megan brings reflection and gentle prodding, while Patrick is openly emotional, scattered-yet-eloquent in his grief. Their dynamic is supportive, authentic, and grounded in mutual respect.

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Conclusion

This episode powerfully challenges listeners—neurodivergent and otherwise—to rethink grief, wellness, and self-compassion. Moving beyond clichés, Patrick and Megan model what it looks like to hold space for hard emotions, to honor need for boundaries and pragmatic coping, and to insist that real wellness is communal, honest, and rooted in both joy and pain. Their reflections offer validation, practical wisdom, and solidarity for anyone navigating grief in a world that too often urges us to “move on.”

Transcript

[A]

We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.

[B]

From day one, you can expect unlimited customer support through onboarding that sets you up for Success and a 99.99% software reliab that ensures that Jane is always ready to start the day with you.

[A]

Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features so you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.

[B]

If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the Code DC Pod at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell. And I'm Dr. Neff and during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone, it's Patrick from Divergent Conversations. Megan, Anna and I are embarking upon our seasonal break. It has been a long year for both of us, as it has for all of you. We've decided to take our end of the year break a little bit early and re release some of our favorite episodes from 2025. We really appreciate all of your support. We appreciate all of you who listen, download, share and continuously send us feedback. We really appreciate our sponsors, Landmark College and Jane App for Healthcare. You two have been in our corners basically the entire year. We will see you on the other side. We hope everyone has a healthy, safe, happy New Year.

[A]

Hello everyone. So we know that we have a generic disclosure on all of our episodes, but I actually just wanted to pop out and give an extra disclosure on this one because it did get pretty heavy and especially because the series on neurodivergent wellness that might not be the headspace that you're entering with. So we start by talking about pet loss and grief and we also talk about suicidality and reference collective trauma and school violence. So it's a Heavy one. So just take care of yourselves and be sure you're in the right headspace. As we grapple with questions around how we navigate grief and hard emotions in complex times.

[B]

Hey everyone. Welcome back to episode two of our neurodivergent Wellness series. And today we are going to spend.

[A]

Okay, Patrick, I'm cutting you off. Let me try this. You just sound so depressed.

[B]

Listen, I wanted to read our ad like that. I wanted to read it really morose and depressed people like hi everyone, you want to support us with sign up for JN app? It sounds great. And we just put our dog to sleep on Sunday and I feel dead inside.

[A]

So I was wondering if you wanted to talk about that. Like I didn't ask on air cuz I wasn't sure if you. Yeah. Do you want to talk on that or.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Like yeah, I mean, yeah, that's part of your. Because we referenced you being low energy last episode which is literally recording these back to back same day as you.

[B]

Couldn't tell from my hobbit shirt that I'm still wearing. Yeah, I can talk about it. I know we were going to talk about like community, finding community, what it meant in terms of wellness. And I think it's appropriately like linked for me at least because connection, community, wellness, like animals. Like I would rather spend time with animals than people. Nine days out of ten. So yes, my wife and I did put our 11 year old basset hound Hazel to sleep on Sunday, which was two days ago. It's been hard. I have had to do this before with our other basset hound Herman about five years ago, but it doesn't feel the same and I think there's so many reasons for that but there's, there's just a lot of grief in this experience and it's hard. And I mentioned to you like I think some of the challenge or struggle is the last 11 years with her has been nothing but reliability, consistency, knowing exactly what to expect out of her every single day of her life. And I cannot understate how valuable that has been for my own mental health. Like and how sweet she was and how loving she was and how happy she was. And now we have another dog that I've mentioned on here many times who I also love and it's just not the same because he is so neurotic and so clingy and so needy and so loud and can really be a struggle sensory wise comparatively. So.

[A]

I mean Hazel is so like the way you describe it so baked into your life in like such an attuned way of just doing your breakfast together or.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Hazel and I like to eat peanut butter honey toast most mornings. So she would just come over and sit near my feet and she would never like make a noise. She would just sit there and she just knew that she was going to get some. And then I would like to throw it in the air because she always caught it in the air like a seal. And I never knew how because she didn't ever learn any other tricks. And I was like, how do you have such good eye coordination, Hazel? Like, it's amazing. But. Yeah, just so many great memories and I think with any experience like this, you always second guess yourself in the buildup. And we tried to do things in a really intentionally, like, well thought out way to really honor her life. And had friends come over throughout the weekend and they brought her like snacks and stuff and our dog sitter and our dog walker and we did an at home euthanasia that we've, we had done previously. And it really creates a lot of honor and respect for the animal as well. But she was just in a lot of pain and it was really hard to watch every day. And it's just really sad too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You were very intentional. Like you built a lot of rituals around the experience for yourself, for Hazel, for your family, for community.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's sad because like my other dog, I don't know if he really understands or knows. Maybe he does. I, maybe I don't give him enough credit but you know, he kept getting up last night out of bed and like going into the kitchen where she was like sleeping most, most nights and like crying. And then I have to bring him back into the bed and like comfort him. And I'm like, I am not built for this man.

[A]

Like, you're, you're comforting his grief.

[B]

Yeah. So this is a, it's a messy process for sure. And I know for so many of you out there listening, like, animals are so important in so many ways. You talk about sensory soothing strategies and you know, hugging your animal or being with your animal if they bring you comfort, not if they're your menace, poltergeist shits you. And it's just, I can't, I mean, I just cannot. Really can't even like quantify it, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Patrick.

[B]

Doing the same where you repress tears, push them away, which I do all the time in therapy.

[A]

So what if. What if. And I. No pressure. And we can cut, we can cut this. What if, what if you didn't.

[B]

Yeah, we don't have to cut it. You know, as long as our listeners want to watch and listen to this, you know, it's. It's not even like I'm aware of it. And sometimes it just happens like that. And it's so baked into who I am, where that emotional process is, like, constantly stuffed down, but I'm realizing how emotional I am, like, all the time. And I think that's one thing I was talking about earlier with a friend. This is a weird. This is going to be a weird divergent thought right now. But she was asking me yesterday. We went and got coffee, which was super helpful. And she was like, you know, we're talking about. She brought up post discovery. For a lot of adults who discover that they're autistic later in life, how come it's so much harder you would. You would think, like, you unmask, you learn, you're autistic all of a sudden? Like, I don't know if she thought, like, the birds are chirping and singing or. I don't know. Well, I'm like, yeah, it's. I feel like I feel everything so intensely post discovery, you know, and that was four years ago, five years ago.

[A]

Now I'm curious. So I. I hear that a lot. I feel that I. So for me, there was something about. I adapted to the too muchness of the world myself by just dissociating, numbing out. And then I, like, reconnected with my body and it's like, oh, this is. Yeah, this is a chaotic place to live.

[B]

Autistic bodies, 0 out of 10, we would not recommend.

[A]

Is there something similar for you around connecting? Yeah.

[B]

100. Spent so much of my life, you know, dissociating, numbing, whatever, and then it's just like, poof. Everything feels magnified and intensified for me. And I imagine for a lot of you listening, it feels like times a million, you know, I'm like, how am I? Every little thing is. Is so intense sometimes. So, yeah, she actually. This is actually tied into wellness for those of you listening. And you're like, what. What is happening right now?

[A]

I actually think grief. Like, and we talked about talking about community, but I like, we're talking about grief and emotions and like, okay, I. I am trying to, like, censor myself. I was about to be like, absolutely. That ties into wellness, like, the ability to move through the hard stuff and to do it in a way that honors and that we can metabolize.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yep. We will talk about relationship and community tomorrow because we are Meeting again tomorrow to do more recurrence.

[A]

Yeah. So let's lean into this because this feels, this feels important. It feels alive.

[B]

Well, one thing I want to mention too, is, like, you know, meeting with my friend, it was really a weird full circle moment because she was the first person who, like, looked at me a couple years ago. I've shared this story on, on here before we were eating lunch, and she was just like, I think you need to go get tested to figure out if you're autistic or not. Because I was having such a hard time. And we talked about that yesterday, and I, you know, I got emotional while talking about that, but really appreciated that she saw me in that moment and was able to, like, offer that feedback to me in that moment. But prior to getting out of my car yesterday, she texted me and was like, shade or son? And I was like, always shade. So I saw her, like, in the courtyard of the coffee shop, get up from this very sunny spot and, like, walk over to, like, the very gloomy dark alleyway next to the coffee shop. And I was like, this is, this is really wonderful. Like, that, for me, is a part of wellness too, is boundary setting and asking for what you need with people that you feel safe enough to do so with. So I just want to name that as well.

[A]

I also love that she knew to ask you, like, sunshade.

[B]

She jokes with me all the time. She's like, I know if I ask you where we're gonna eat, like, you're gonna tell me three places. I'm never gonna suggest a place to you. Like, and I, I, I just appreciate friendship like that. You know, we talked about that too yesterday. Is just having those types of people in your life is, is really liberating.

[A]

Yeah. And I would, like, I would use the word attunement there someone who's attuned to you and to your needs and is, like, also thinking about it proactively, not waiting for you to ask.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, yeah, so we're, I'm all over the place right now. So where do you want to go?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, like, so. And we can move if it feels too hot. I just, as you were talking, I think back to. This is actually a thread that's come up several times in the nook where people have lost pets and they say, hey, does anyone have resources on autistic grief? And, and we had, we had Kylie Hanishon, like, long, long time ago, talking about pregnancy loss and infant loss and grief. And I do think this can be A complex experience for us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And there's not like a one size like I think there's not like a one way it'll show up for autistic people. But I do think it can be a complex experience for us. Grief. But then also what you're saying around attachment to pets, particularly in ways that people around us might not fully understand.

[B]

You know one thing like if I zoomed out on my life and I looked at experiences I and I had more understanding of, you know, assessing for autism as a child and a teenager. I can't think back to so many moments when I was at like a nature based place with animals and how like excited I got and how excited I was to like go see the red pandas at the Western North Carolina Nature Center. How excited I am to like see the highland cattle in Scotland or how excited I am to always find these like special interest animals of mine and like be in existence with them. And how regulating I have always found it to be. And you know, I think about how healing animals are for us and it's through you know, both verbal and non verbal cues. And just presence alone can be so unbelievably co regulating even for both parties. And I just was. I've been like. I don't know if I'm trying to do this to myself as like a, a grief strategy, but I've been trying to replay like visual images of like Hazel as a puppy to like earlier, earlier years and all the experiences that we had together till now. And like those visuals keep like flashing through my brain.

[A]

I think that's beautiful. That's. I mean that's attachment, right? Is like you're holding on to the attachment through. Holding on to those memories. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I get these like romanticized ideas as we talk about a lot on here. And during like the onset of COVID I was like, okay, I gotta get out of Asheville. I gotta get away from people. I need to like. I feel unsafe with what's happening in the world. I need to be by myself. I'm gonna take Hazel with me. So I found this farm in the middle of Tennessee and it was like this working farm and you could be around all the animals all day, every day. I want to bring Hazel. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be so relaxing. Go out into the middle of Tennessee and let's just say the politics swing drastically. So like when I get there they're like, we haven't been masking for years here and we're not going to and what's happening? And I'm like, oh, God, this is a nightmare. So it was just Hazel and I on this big ass farm and we're walking around like every day and I couldn't. Like, she was so overstimulated by all the animals and smells and noises so she would not settle. So we just walked this farmland all day for like two days in a row. And like the first thing she does as soon as we get there is immediately like rolls around in some sort of animal poop. Immediately she's a white basset hound. I'm just like, this is everything in an experience that I do not need this to be. Like, you are supposed to be my one consistent presence. And it was just that memory really stands out to me because she's just like happy and smiling and like, does not care. And I'm like spraying her with a hose and I'm like.

[A]

This is like such a sensory nightmare, having a dog roller.

[B]

And it was like that. It was like the moment we walked out of our. Like, it was like an Airstream that I had rented on this property as the first five minutes. And I'm like, oh my God. But yeah, I took her everywhere and she was my buddy and. Just sad. Yeah, it's also sad to have to make those decisions. Like, everyone tells you you're doing the right thing, you're doing this, like, and you're helping maintain the animal's dignity. And they're not going to tell you when they're ready to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And for me, I felt so guilt ridden and so ashamed of the buildup of making that decision, Calling the person who was going to come over, setting a date. And Hazel is living her life, like all week and weekend, I feel like. And I kept thinking, this dog has no idea that like, Sunday morning is going to be her last day on earth. That was really hard too.

[A]

Yeah, that that would be a torture point for me too, of like, we know this is coming, but you don't. There's not a way to communicate to you and for you to get to know this.

[B]

Right. And I try to, like, look for signs, you know, all weekend and week of like making the right decision, like looking for validation in a way. And there was a lot of it, just like chronic pain, movement, mobility, not going on walks, not eating, like all the, all the telltale sucks. But like, every time someone came to the door, she certainly, like used every ounce of energy to get up and wag her tail and greet them and like say hi to them. And I Was like, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing, you know? Yeah. Stuff is just really, really tough, and it's amazing, you know, I've been working from home for the last five years. I think that's played a role, too. Here is, like, working from home, spending a lot of time with both of them, and I think that's probably increased attachment as well, because, like, sure, we've just been through a lot between Covid and Hurricane Helene and a lot of, like, survival situations, really, and just always at the forefront of my mind, you know, to make sure that we had what we needed for her in her comfort and stuff like that.

[A]

How are you doing? Like, not like. Like, in this moment. Not like. Like, as we're talking about this, like, it.

[B]

I'm good. I'm good. I. I can, like, I actually appreciate this outlet. I don't want to use it as, like, a therapy session, though, so I'm trying to be mindful of that.

[A]

I mean, I, like, I don't even think I could feel like a therapist toward you. So. Yeah, I don't think that's what this is.

[B]

Yeah. I think, you know, I just noticed the more I've understood my own neurology, the more I've understood how important some sort of an animal companionship has been. So I think that's really what's been on my mind, too, is just the realization of, like, I really do need to have some sort of animal companionship. And. Yeah, I think that has been coming up a lot for me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is such a stabilizing, grounding, gathering force.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. And I. You know, grief is such a complex, like, beast of an emotional experience because, you know, I think it comes in waves a lot of the time or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Whether you're in, like. I don't know. I don't. I don't prescribe to the five stages of grief, but, like, I definitely have been experiencing them.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's. There's a reason that's out there. There's. Yeah. And. And I would think especially with. With when an animal is so baked into our life, like, all those little routines of, like, there's. Those. Are all those splinters of grief, like, making toast and, like, remembering, like, oh, wait, Hazel's not here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's those little, like, reminders, you know, So I think that's. That's something for sure. And to those of you listening, if you're, like, you know, you've experienced something similar, or it's Something that you've been wondering about. I think it is about both. And the duality of life and death. And when I think of it, I'm, like, also thinking about all the beautiful moments, too, that existed and all of the reasons that I am sad because of those moments.

[A]

Yeah. Like, flipping the grief to, like, this grief hurts. Because on the flip side of that is, like, so much love and care and being able to anchor into that. Absolutely.

[B]

Like, I'm not a monster. But if she was a difficult animal, this experience may be different.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's bad. Well, you'd have. And then you'd have complex grief. Like, I mean, this is talked about in literature with, like, if a parent dies and there's a complex relationship there, that can lead to complex grief, which can actually, in some ways be. I don't want to be, like, harder, easier, but it. Well, it can be more complicated to navigate because then you're. You're grieving, like, the loss, but then you're also grieving, like the mom or the dad or the parent you never got.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, it would. It would just be a different grief experience. It'd be a complex grief.

[B]

Yeah. Might be grieving, like, the emotional experience around the grief around loss, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In some of those situations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know for myself that there will be some grief potentially about, like, relief.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So that's. Yeah. Complex grief. Anticipatory grief is also one of them.

[A]

Yeah. Which you had.

[B]

Yeah. I think about that a lot. For. We've talked about addiction on here, I think anticipatory grief. So often I see parents in. In anticipatory grief with children who are in active addiction. Yeah, yeah. Which is a complex, complicated place to be mentally as well.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's like, I don't know what we're setting up here for. And so I don't know how, like, emotionally pivot toward you and there's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anticipatory grief. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So what's coming up for you around grief and wellness in general?

[A]

I mean, one thought I had is, as you were talking about grief was this idea I heard years ago about how, like, when we're in grief, like, it opens up the doors to all past griefs, too, which is part of why it's so painful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've definitely, when I think about losses I've had, it's obviously the loss, but then it's like, this is also opening up all of the losses, all of the grief, and it's such a. Such a tender Moment when that's all just open and on the outside of our skin.

[B]

Yeah. This is gonna sound perhaps off putting, but for me, and I imagine for a lot of people who don't enjoy being perceived when you experience grief like this, it's a bit messy socially because everyone is like reaching out to you. And I almost feel like pressure to respond. And then I probably experience some demand avoidance where I'm like. And then I know it's like well intentioned and all, all of that, you know, but it's like stuff, situations like these are hard for me and I imagine for a lot of us where it's like, I don't know how I'm supposed to react or not react. And in social environments or situations or responses.

[A]

I'm so glad you brought that up. And I don't like that's off putting at all. Like there is a social dynamic to grief and many of us have complex social experiences. And I, I could guess that you and I might be kind of similar here, but like in grief I go inward and I, I do, I would. Yeah, I get, I guess I appreciate the reach outs but like, mostly I just go inward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. And that's what I need.

[B]

Found myself like yesterday getting a lot of like messages and requests. Not from you, by the way, from people who were asking me like to commit to doing things with them. And they were doing it out of their like feeling like this is, this is an offering and like a best interest and help you like navigate this time. And. And I found myself getting frustrated. But in reality, really what I was responding with was like, I just don't think I'm up for it. And I was trying to like, pick that apart in the moment. And I was like, you know, where's this frustration coming from? Almost going back to our last episode of like zooming out and not focusing on the content and really just trying to pay attention to that in my responses. So I, I think copy and paste can be your best friend sometimes. And also like, so I leaned into that because I am someone who really struggles with not responding to things and I've tried so hard to get better at it and it's still so hard. So copy and paste is a good friend. Leaving my phone or your phone or devices, if you're listening at home, like somewhere for a little bit of time so that you just aren't checking them routinely. I was really just trying to honor that yesterday and like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just exist in it, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, I love that As a. Like to pull out some. Some pragmatic things for folks. Like scripts. Yeah, grief scripts of like thank you so much for your care. And like, because that is. And that's. That's not even just an autistic thing. Like anyone in grief. It's like it's. It is so hard to respond like. And it is that complex thing of like, I'm glad people know and care. And also like, gosh, I don't have a capacity to engage or like even think about you, Patrick. You, I feel like, are quick to reassure people. So I imagine there's even a pull to like I want to reassure people that I'm okay, but like I'm not okay. So then I can't. I don't want to reassure people I'm okay if I'm not.

[B]

Right. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's. It's really complicated. And for me personally, where I go when I feel that way, that like that push pull of I need to reassure, but I'm not. And then it feels disingenuous or not authentic. And then I feel like my. Then everything becomes almost like unraveled. I really like go into almost a shame spiral type of experience of like, you should feel more grateful, you should be more appreciative. You should not be frustrated. Things like that. So I have to really.

[A]

Mind is just like a little bitch. My gosh. Like, it's like, let's just not be in our grief. It's like also let's be. Be really judgmental about the fact I don't have capacity to respond to people and talk about how I'm such an ungrateful little. Little bit. Yep, a little bit.

[B]

My mind is a little bitch about this stuff. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because that was actually really funny. I was going to say that while also trying really hard to exhibit some self compassion like in these moments. Really just trying to offer some grace and self compassion. Like words that I absolutely despise and yeah, yeah. Things that I'm like, you know, you really. It's almost like this we're having. I'm having like very differing conversations. Angel devil style almost of like, you should be really self. You should have self compassion. You should have let yourself cry. You should let yourself feel this experience. You just had a major loss. You should be grateful.

[A]

You should.

[B]

Should be appreciative. You should not be frustrated. I'm like. But I will say I think yesterday the self compassion piece won out, you know, because I was able to set some boundaries with certain people, including my mother. And I was also able to say yes to some things that although I did not want to say yes to them, we going back to our other episode of knowing that they would be nourishing despite my affect and my mood. Because when I went and got coffee with my friend, I did say, you know, this is what just happened. And also, like, I don't know what kind of mood I'm going to be in. Like, I don't, I don't know if I'm going to be talkative. I don't know if I'm going to be sad. I don't want to come. We haven't seen each other in two months. Like be completely just emotional and not regulated. But she was like, I don't give a. You should be all of those things. If you don't show up that way I'm gonna be really upset with. And I was like, cool, I'll see you at 2:30. Bye.

[A]

That's such a beautiful, such a beautiful response. It's like, come as you are. And those are the people for whom like, I think we need to be around in our grief is the people for whom come as you are. And then we're not going to get like an overly worried energy. Like, I know for me, it's really hard for me when people worry on me because then it'd be like, oh, I've got to reassure them that I'm okay, but I'm again, not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Someone who can just be like, yeah, show up as you are. It makes sense.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And we can hold that.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. I was, I was actually texting someone else yesterday while I was texting you and similar conversation where I was like, I ordered lunch but it's sitting on the porch and I really can't even get off the couch to go get it. And she was like, well, when I had an experience like this a couple years ago, my food sat out on the porch for four hours and then I ate really soggy, disgusting wet noodles for lunch. And she's like, she texted me this morning. She's like, I hope you got your own wet noodle experience yesterday to some capacity. And I was like, thank you for checking on me. Okay. Also goodbye for now. Like, so I appreciate those, those types of connections and those types of interactions. I think I, I struggle so much with like the generic cookie cutter. I don't know what to say to you and I don't know how to. And I don't know how to receive that and respond back to it. And it's just my perspective. And it's not even in this situation, but grief in general. I think so many people are often saying things then they're trying to. I wouldn't say placate. That would be not the right word. But saying things out of their own discomfort or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I don't handle those types of like, comments and responses well. Is. Is where I struggle the most, I think.

[A]

Yeah. And I. And I think that is a really human experience is especially in the. I would say kind of white culture in the States, Europe. Like, we don't do the full spectrum of emotions very well. We don't have. Like, that was something that was so wild to me when I first lived in Malawi. Like grief and funerals. And it's like a full body experience. It's like people feel their grief and they feel their aliveness and joy. Like just the spectrum of emotions is so different in other cultures, I would say. So like, huge blanket statement here. But like, white people kind of suck at grief. And so part of that that then happens is when we encounter other people's pain or grief. Like, there's that tendency to pull away from it. And it can sometimes come out as either like making placated statements like, everything happens for a reason, like that stuff or the stuff that's like kind of what you're describing of. They're obviously trying to. Maybe there's some discomfort there and they're trying to soothe that. But it's grief makes people uncomfortable. And then when you're in grief and you're around people who are uncomfortable to be around you, like, you feel that.

[B]

That'S where I really struggle. You had mentioned that Malawi experience before. And I think that's really beautiful culturally, you know, to have like, embodiment of the duality, which is life. Because life is not without death and loss. And I really appreciate that. Yeah. I think what you're saying makes so much sense. And. And this is something. And I've said this on air, so if you listen to it, whatever. I. That I struggle with my mom, like, even with my throat. Just disorder. Right. Like, there's grief around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Having a chronic medical condition that is going to impact you for the rest of your life. There's grief. When my vocal cord got paralyzed in my throat surgery. Like, there's grief of my voice being lost for a while and. And changing pretty drastically. But the comments of, like, I hope that you have the best outcome that you can want or imagine tomorrow during surgery. And I'm like, this is why we don't talk. But, like, the reality is what I would have much rather heard right in that moment, which is, again, going back to your point of it being uncomfortable, is acknowledging and just naming the discomfort, the pain, the grief. This sucks. I'm really sorry that you have to experience this. I would have much rather heard something like that, you know, instead of like. Or will send you thoughts and prayers over your throat condition. Okay. It's not going to change. Still chronic throat condition, you know, like. Yeah.

[A]

And this is something. This is something where I think autistic people can sometimes like a way we can show allistic people another way of being. I think in general, we sometimes have a little bit easier of a job naming the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And that gives people around us permission to do that. And I think when we're in pain, like, that is sometimes the most containing, grounding thing is to name it of like, yeah, I'm scared, or this is painful or hurts. We've both, like, talked about how self compassion is a hard word for us, even though I use it all the time. But my favorite self compassion statement is like, I'll put my hand on my chest and it's like, this is a hard moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's my. Like, that to me is self compassion is like naming what is.

[B]

I love that. Yeah. Because I can. I can get down with that. You know, like, that can resonate and land for me.

[A]

Yeah. If it's a lot of you or if it's like a flowery, like, I don't even know, like, what's a. What's it like, cringy self compassion sentence that comes to your head.

[B]

I deserve, I deserve. What is the worst that could happen? Something like that.

[A]

Self compassion.

[B]

That's just public technology.

[A]

Yeah. What is cheesy self compassion statement.

[B]

You're gonna make me cringe. It's probably those tarot cards that Jess and Cherish were pulling for me in Belize where it was like amused tarot card deck. Right.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I think Jess put like a bro dude voice to all the cards because she's like, I'm gonna try to help you drop into this. But those types of things, like, that makes me cringe. But yeah, you're right. Flowery. Whatever. My last therapist was like, let's stop using self compassion. Maybe we'll say like, feeling seen or like seeing yourself in a certain way or like. And that was helpful for me to reframe, but I want to just name something real quick and I want it. Maybe I'm Wrong. As I was gonna definitely go on a tangent about my relationship with my mom, which I don't need to do on this podcast. I saw your face, and I saw you make, like, an expression upwards where you did the reframe of, like, I think this is a moment where we could do this thing where we could really teach people. And I really appreciated that. And maybe that was subconscious or maybe I caught it incorrectly, but you reframed that really well. Of. This is a moment where just now could frame.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People in a way where, like, you know, maybe it's not as easy for them to name the thing. So I. I just wanted to name that. I appreciated you did that. Whether you did that consciously, subconsciously, intentionally, unintentionally, I don't know.

[A]

You're giving me way too much strategic credit. It was not that intentional. But I love that you think it might have been. And I, like, want to take credit for that because that would have been really. Yeah. This kind of brilliant strip strategy of.

[B]

Like, well, I saw your eye go up into the right. So that was telling me you had a thought of, like, ooh, I need to catch this, or I need to say this. And I think.

[A]

Yeah, the thought was around, like, naming the pain how important that is. Because that is something I think about a lot. I talk about a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how, like, that's also something really pragmatic people can do is, like, name the pain.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's.

[A]

People are afraid to. But it's like, actually naming, like, people. It's the same thing. Okay. This is just going to be a dark episode. It's the same thing with suicidal ideation. People are afraid to talk about it. Research is clear around this. Like, it. Like, if it is, like, even therapists can be nervous about talking about it. That is not what increases the risk. It is the not talking about it.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[A]

And again, it's back to this white culture thing of, like, we have a really hard time talking about hard stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. I mean, to go back to wellness, get comfortable talking about hard stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Absolute. Yes. Preach. This is exactly it. Because I think about that suicidality therapist client relationship all the time of how often we were taught, like, better get your safety plan. Better get your crisis plan as soon as someone mentions suicidality.

[A]

And that's moving away from the pain. And. Okay. And I'm not to say, like, sometimes we absolutely need to do a safety plan. And I'm like, we should actually maybe talk about this sometimes. So I'M not saying don't do that, but if it is, if it is, they've just. My client has just told me something that is really painful and I want to move away from that pain. I'm going to pull it, like, and I'm going to pull up an intervention in the plan and it's going to distance from that pain. First of all, that's going to feel so alienating to the client. It's going to say like, I can't hold your pain. We've got to make a plane around it. And so that can also be a way of moving away from the pain. Now I think ideally it's, let's move toward the pain, let's understand it. And then I will say this because we're talking about it. The reason safety planning is so important is that for most deaths that happen by suicide, it's in an impulsive moment. And if you don't have a plan around that, then the risk is so high. So it's. For most people it's like a 15 minutes of like in my impulsivity. And this is not a baseline decision I would make. So you absolutely want to build a safety net around that to reduce that risk. And it does save lives. But it can't be done in a. Like, exactly. Your pain's making me uncomfortable. Let's put a safety plan around.

[B]

Right?

[A]

This pain.

[B]

Exactly. Can't be a knee jerk reaction because what I have experienced and I just want to quantify or quantify. Why am I using that word? It's not even the right word. It's also not applicable asterisk around all of that. Like, we are not saying safety planning and after care planning is. And crisis planning is not crucial and important. What I really struggle with is in therapeutic settings, right. You name the pain. Therapist gets immediately uncomfortable. Therapist then immediately reaches for clinical intervention. It creates a wedge or separation in the humanness and the relationship and it can create such significant rupture.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Shame. Shame. Your pain. Your pain scares me.

[B]

Yeah. Your pain is making me uncomfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We need to immediately plan for your pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're in your office.

[A]

Yeah. And, and to be fair, like when I was starting out as a therapist and I was in a behavioral health setting, it was like 30 minutes. Like I did this stuff and it. So I had to learn, like I was like, what am I doing? Like, right, okay. So when pain enters, there's a tendency to want to pull away and then like offer, fix it. So then I did a lot of work around like, what's my relationship to pa and it's hard, like, even for seasoned therapists to like, see the pain and to move toward it. And there's still, there can still be the fear of like, if I move toward this pain, am I actually going to make it bigger?

[B]

Right. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah. I was going to tell a story, but I think it's going to diverge us too much. So, yes, all of that, I think. And again, going back to wellness, like you said, sitting with that pain, sitting with that discomfort and using that, that strategy for self compassion if you need to, like, yeah, this is really hard. And it's allowed to be hard. Like having that permission. So important to just say, like, you are allowed to feel this way, you are allowed to experience this this way.

[A]

And then you're allowed to distract from it too, if you need to. So you're allowed to feel this. And then there's also like, like containment in the sense of sometimes if the pain is like too dysregulating and it's like, you know, DBT does a lot with like, distress tolerance skills and talks about this. But it's. If it's now I'm feeling, I'm contacting my pain and it's dysregulating, then it's too much. It's like, it's too hot, then it's okay. We, we want to, like, take it back a bit so we can get to a place where we can metabolize and move through, through that with a bit more agency. So at that point it might be like, I'm going to distract with like, silly YouTube means or Lord of the Rings. And like, that's not a bad thing. Sometimes we need that distraction when the pain is that intense. And that's what, like, grounds us and regroups us. And that's not us abandoning ourselves or like being emotional avoiders. That's us caretaking.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. Really well said.

[A]

I can see your brain's pivoting.

[B]

No, not. I'm just like tracking like time stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So we're kind of at that place. So here's what a real, like, glimpse into my brain is. Like, okay, timing is what we've been, what we talked about. Boom. Megan Anna just left some, like, great takeaways. Like, if we diverge from takeaways on wellness, does that like, you know, derail us too much?

[A]

In, in a sense, like, you had a place to go conversationally and you were like, is there space for that?

[B]

Or like, yeah, yeah, I don't even know If I have a great place conversationally, it's just what was happening in my brain. But yeah, I think that is a great strategy and I think we do need distraction and sometimes we are going to need to dissociate and sometimes we are going to need to avoid like sometimes the pain is too much. And I think that is applicable with everything we're talking about in all of these scenarios and contexts. And it's applicable sometimes with what's happening in our.

[A]

I was literally just going there in.

[B]

Our freaking world and our country.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like it is okay for you to name that for yourself and go whichever direction you need to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the pain of watching never ending unrelenting suffering is a lot.

[A]

Well and our like bodies, our brains, our nervous systems were not designed for that. Like I, I've had this thought for years of like in our pockets we have access to so much pain, pain and suffering that we like at the blink of an eye. And I, like I, the first time I had that thought, I was sitting with my, my two year old at the time. Oh gosh, this is a really heavy episode. We need, we need to put a like thick disclaimer. I was sitting, I was pregnant and it was after two pregnancy losses. I was pregnant with my second and I was with my then two and a half year old on the floor in our like hundred year old wooden home. And I, and I saw the news about Sandy Hook and like it just cut through that moment and I was like what the hell am I doing bringing a kid into this world? Another one. And like there's so much pain in the world and like, and not that we should numb from it, but also like our brains and our systems were not meant to like any moment of our day be intruded with the horrors of humanity and the suffering. And, and then for people who are hyper empathetic trying to, trying to hold that and make sense of that and it's it, it like it's just this isn't what our bodies were built for.

[B]

No, no. Yeah. I can't imagine experiencing that in that moment. And yeah, it's not what our bodies are built for. Let's throw into the mix like some justice sensitivity, some rsd.

[A]

But then are you, are you also having to like the moment I said that I'm like, but I'm not the person suffering so how dare I complain about being exposed to it. Are you also having that narrative?

[B]

For sure?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's really, it is easy to fall into that narrative too. And it's so easy to get completely absorbed into this stuff 247 non stop. It's just not sustainable.

[A]

Yeah. And then I think it goes back to like agency, community. So if we get pulled into it and we are so frozen by it, like I think a few things can happen. I think we can lose, we can be desensitized. I think we can lose a sense of agency.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's like, I feel like those are the questions I keep coming back to this year is like, how do we get back to connection, how do we get back to community, how do we get back to agency? How do we keep showing up? And I know for me, and we've had, you and I have had different process around how we consume news. I know for me it's, I do. I am limiting my news consumption to like a few things that keep me plugged in but. And it'll look different for everyone. But that question of like what is going to help me show up in the way I want to show up.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And guess what, Megan, Anna, we were looking for episode ideas of what we're going to record on tomorrow and it sounds like community, connection and agency all make a lot of sense when it comes to wellness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Social ligamenting right now.

[A]

Yeah, I was, I was just admiring that. Yeah.

[B]

But no, in all seriousness, I think they're such important topics because I don't know how you can have wellness without those things.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's even my like, like I can, I can even tell some resistance when I was like, let's talk about neurodivergent wellness. I've like picked up some resistance a little bit I think and I get it. Like I actually, it's funny, I'm, I just gave this talk, I gave an anti self care, self care talk and I make fun of myself of like I literally wrote a book on self care and like I, the concept is one that I like cringe at. And so like self care, wellness, I think it's, it can often be talked about in this kind of like toxic positive. Let's bypass negative emotions and just like do these things. And that's shit advice. Like robust wellness, self care, it's communal, it's interconnected. It's like let me figure out how to move through the hard stuff. It's like, yeah, robust wellness has to also talk about the hard stuff.

[B]

100% I agree. And I think that, yeah, that was probably my first reaction when I just hear the word wellness. I'm like, well, because it's like very whitewashed, white centered. Like self care bubble baths, like spa days. All the things I'm like. But I know that's not us. So maybe wellness.

[A]

Maybe we change. Maybe we changed the title of season two, Which we don't have much time to play with. But maybe it's like Anti wellness wellness. Anti self care. Self care. Radical wellness. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, let's like neuroqueer it a little bit. Like let's play with the concept of self care and wellness. So I recently I gave the self. The anti self care self care talk I just met. Talked about at the symposium for the AANE association for Autism and Neurodiversity. And it was so interesting. There were three of us that did like TED Talk style talks. Not as cool as you, Patrick. Not an actual TEDx talk, but Ted. Ted style talks. And it was so like we didn't know what the other people were talking about. But it was, it was all on this theme of like community care kind of re. Rethinking self care. And I was actually. It was funny at the end I was like, this would have been really awkward if I'd done like a classic self care talk because the last speaker was like, had some like mic drop quote about how like self care is what people tell you to do when like the systems drop you or something like that. And it was just, it was really cool to see like the autistic mindset around it. It all felt very connected and how we were thinking about it quite differently than it's often talked about.

[B]

Nice. I love that and I love like rearranging how we phrase the. The titling of this series. So I really love that too.

[A]

We can play with it.

[B]

We have. It's good because we came into today. Let's just start talking and see where it goes. And we're going to record a whole season in a week and a half. We didn't have episode ideas and now we have plenty. So exactly what we were hoping for.

[A]

And I think that goes back to connection. I think that comes from generativity, which arises when we're connected. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we should close this episode out is the feeling I'm getting. So if people are liking this, y' all should go find our YouTube or our Instagram or. Or our substack that we're starting or.

[B]

Or even better, if you look over Megan Anna's right. Is it right shoulder? Right shoulder. Here's the. What is it? The self care book for autistic people.

[A]

Self care for autistic people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And go find the right one because there's a ripoff that's really annoying. Yeah, like it looks like an AI ripoff and that it's like self care for autistic adults. So find the actual the blue one. Self care for autistic people don't buy their like ripoff. Apparently this is like a whole thing that happens now. It's really common for people to take while doing books and make it like an AI ripoff version and post it on Amazon.

[B]

Congrats on having a well doing book.

[A]

Yeah, I guess you're right. It should be a like I am successful enough to have an AI ripoff of my book that is actually doing really well. Like the ripoff is doing well on Amazon which is really annoying. But anyway, yes, go buy the book.

[B]

If you like us, find us on all those things and we'll continue more of these conversations episodes out on Fridays. Goodbye.

[A]

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout-resources it's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.