Podcast Summary

Podcast: Divergent Conversations
Episode 139: FLASHBACK — Autistic Grief and Wellness: Holding Space for Hard Emotions
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale
Release Date: January 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This emotionally resonant episode revisits a powerful and raw conversation between neurodivergent therapists Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale. In the context of their “Neurodivergent Wellness” series, they take an unfiltered dive into the lived realities of grief, specifically through the lens of autistic and neurodivergent experience. The conversation centers on Patrick's recent loss of his beloved dog Hazel, moving through topics of attachment, community, complex emotions, self-compassion, and the nuances of “wellness” that resist typical positive-washed narratives.

Listeners are cautioned that this is a “heavy one,” with discussions that include pet loss, grief, suicide, and collective trauma—but it’s also affirming, vulnerable, and deeply human.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pet Loss, Attachment, and Autistic Grief

• Patrick’s Loss of Hazel (his dog)

  • Patrick shares deeply about putting Hazel to sleep, noting the particular intensity of the grief, and the important, stabilizing role animals play in his life as an autistic person.
  • Highlights unique autistic attachments to pets, often misunderstood by others, and how pets are “baked into” daily life and regulation rhythms (e.g., shared peanut butter honey toast mornings).
  • Rituals helped honor Hazel’s life; at-home euthanasia, friends visiting, and intentional goodbyes.
  • Grief includes guilt and second-guessing: “I kept thinking, this dog has no idea that Sunday morning is going to be her last day on earth.” (18:13)

• Autistic Sensory & Emotional Regulation via Animals

  • Animals (when not overwhelming) offer co-regulation, sensory soothing, and predictable connection for many autistic people.
  • Patrick reflects: “Spending the last 11 years with her has been nothing but reliability, consistency, knowing exactly what to expect...I cannot understate how valuable that has been for my own mental health.” (05:28)

2. Post-Diagnosis Emotional Flooding & Autistic Grief

• Heightened Emotional Awareness
  • Patrick and Megan discuss how learning about their neurodivergence increased emotional “intensity” and reduced numbness/dissociation, leading to feeling things more deeply and chaotically.
  • Megan: “There was something about...I adapted to the too muchness of the world by dissociating, numbing out...and then reconnected with my body and it’s like, oh, this is a chaotic place to live.” (10:10)

3. Ritualizing Loss, Honoring Grief

• Memory as Attachment
  • Patrick shares replaying visual memories of Hazel: “Those visuals keep flashing through my brain.” (15:47)
  • Megan reflects: “That’s attachment, right? You’re holding on to the attachment through those memories.” (16:03)
• Storytelling as Healing & Humor
  • Patrick recounts a failed “nature retreat” that went awry with Hazel, humor and pain blending into bittersweet memory. (16:03–17:32)

4. Social Complexity of Grief: Scripts, Boundaries, and Demand Avoidance

• Navigating Social Expectations
  • The hosts describe the pressures of social grieving—expectations to reply or reassure, even when inward withdrawal is needed.
  • Megan: “There is a social dynamic to grief and many of us have complex social experiences...In grief I go inward.” (26:18)
  • Patrick identifies demand avoidance: “I almost feel like pressure to respond...then I probably experience some demand avoidance.” (25:20)
• Pragmatic Coping: Grief Scripts & Device Breaks
  • They recommend creating templates (“scripts”) for responding to messages and allowing self permission to not engage.
  • Megan: “Grief scripts...thank you so much for your care. And that’s not even just an autistic thing, like, anyone in grief.” (28:10)

5. Self-Compassion & Reluctance around “Wellness” Language

• The “Little Bitch” Inner Monologue
  • Both hosts highlight the shaming self-narratives that protest vulnerability or being “ungrateful.”
  • Megan: “My mind is just like a little bitch. It’s like, let’s just not be in our grief. Let’s be judgmental about not having capacity to respond.” (29:41)
• Alternative Phrases for Self-Compassion
  • Both prefer pragmatic acceptance (“this is a hard moment”) over flowery, commercialized self-care affirmations.
  • Megan: “My favorite self-compassion statement is, I’ll put my hand on my chest and it’s like, ‘this is a hard moment.’” (37:00)
  • Patrick on standard advice: “Self-compassion? That’s just public technology.” (37:27)

6. Holding Space & Naming Pain

• Directness Over False Positivity
  • Both stress the power of directly naming pain, instead of offering generic platitudes (“everything happens for a reason”).
  • Patrick on what he wanted to hear in medical grief: “I would have much rather heard...‘This sucks. I’m sorry you have to experience this,’ instead of...‘Thoughts and prayers.’” (35:17)
  • Megan: “That is sometimes the most containing, grounding thing, just to name it.” (39:26)

7. Therapy, Suicide, and Cultural Discomfort with Suffering

• Discussing Suicidality Head-On
  • Megan: “It’s not talking about it that increases risk. Research is clear.” (39:33)
  • Both lament that therapists are trained to instantly safety plan or “fix,” pulling away from pain, but what’s healing is “moving toward the pain” and holding it together first (40:14–41:49).

8. Distraction, Agency & Navigating Collective Trauma

• Permission for Distraction and Avoidance
  • The hosts validate distress tolerance and sometimes needing to distract or “contain” overwhelming pain, referencing DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy).
  • Megan: “You’re allowed to feel this. And...if it’s too dysregulating...then it’s okay—we want to take it back a bit...That’s not us abandoning ourselves or being emotional avoiders. That’s us caretaking.” (44:46)
• Information Overload in the Digital Age
  • Exposure to global suffering via phones/social media is overwhelming and not “what our bodies were built for” (47:41). Justice sensitivity, RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria), and empathy compound the effects for neurodivergent people.
  • Patrick: “It is easy to fall into that narrative...get completely absorbed into this stuff 24/7.” (48:13)
• Maintaining Agency & Connection
  • Setting limits on news/social exposure is an act of self and community care, preserving the ability to show up meaningfully.

9. Rethinking “Wellness” and “Self-Care” from a Neurodivergent Lens

• Both hosts express skepticism toward “wellness” as presented in mainstream/whitewashed terms.
  • Megan: “Wellness, self-care, it can often be talked about in this toxic positive, let’s bypass negative emotions and just do these things. And that’s shit advice.” (50:49)
  • Patrick: “My first reaction when I just hear the word wellness...it’s very whitewashed, white-centered—self-care, bubble baths, spa-days—all the things.” (50:49)
• Call for “anti-wellness” or radical, communal notions of wellness—grappling with hardship, connection, and real-life context.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Hazel and I liked to eat peanut butter honey toast most mornings. She would just come over and sit near my feet...She just knew that she was going to get some.” — Patrick (06:16)
• “There was something about…dissociating, numbing out, and then I reconnected with my body and it’s like, oh, this is a chaotic place to live.” — Megan (10:10)
• “Grief is such a complex, beast of an emotional experience...I don’t prescribe to the five stages, but I’ve definitely been experiencing them.” — Patrick (21:12)
• “Our bodies, our brains, our nervous systems were not designed for [constant exposure to suffering].” — Megan (47:41)
• “Robust wellness...is communal, interconnected, it’s moving through the hard stuff...It has to also talk about the hard stuff.” — Megan (50:49)
• “Come as you are. Those are the people we need to be around in our grief.” — Megan (31:45)

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Moment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 03:22 | Patrick’s honest update on grief & loss of Hazel | | 06:16 | Describing daily rituals & attachment with Hazel | | 09:05 | Autistic emotional intensity post-diagnosis | | 12:56 | Friendship, boundary setting, & attunement | | 14:35 | The complexity of autistic grief & pet attachment | | 18:13 | Guilt in euthanasia decisions | | 25:20 | Social pressure, demand avoidance, grief scripts | | 29:41 | “My mind is just like a little bitch” — self-critique| | 37:00 | Self-compassion as honest naming (“this is hard”) | | 39:33 | Discussing suicidality: “It’s not talking about it that increases risk” | | 44:46 | Permission to distract or avoid for self-care | | 47:41 | Collective trauma and the limits of human empathy | | 50:49 | Critique of traditional wellness/self-care | | 52:26 | Anti-self-care, radical wellness discussions |

Tone & Style

The conversation is vulnerable, raw, deeply affirming, and interspersed with irreverent, humorous self-awareness. Megan brings reflection and gentle prodding, while Patrick is openly emotional, scattered-yet-eloquent in his grief. Their dynamic is supportive, authentic, and grounded in mutual respect.

Conclusion

This episode powerfully challenges listeners—neurodivergent and otherwise—to rethink grief, wellness, and self-compassion. Moving beyond clichés, Patrick and Megan model what it looks like to hold space for hard emotions, to honor need for boundaries and pragmatic coping, and to insist that real wellness is communal, honest, and rooted in both joy and pain. Their reflections offer validation, practical wisdom, and solidarity for anyone navigating grief in a world that too often urges us to “move on.”