Sheldon Gay (3:34)

Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so, so much for that introduction and just for being in this space, one thing, because otherwise my brain will, will be nagging me the entire time. Just to clarify, it's umbrella us. So it's, you know, we're based here in the US but yeah, so Buggin is bug, and where the B stands for black, U is for unidentified and underrepresented. And then the rest is gifted and otherwise neurodivergent. And so that is my kind of playful reference to this kind of aha moment that I had where, you know, this duality of like, am I the. Am I going like, am I bugging? Or, you know, is there something here? And then kind of owning that and saying, yeah, no, I am, you know, black, gifted and otherwise lower divergence.

Dr. Neff (4:30)

Well, I think you've, you've kind of already started here. I will formally ask, you've been asking our guests, like, how do you enter this conversation? And I can already tell from your bio and from hearing you speak, you enter it with a lot of emotion. That sounds like it comes from lived experience of discovering this about you at 40. But yeah, this, the conversation around giftedness, like, how did you get into this conversation? How do you enter this conversation?

Sheldon Gay (4:55)

Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I, I get to this conversation because, you know, as, you know, in my bio talked about, you know, a little over a year ago, I had, you know, I was going through a lot kind of in my life where I was feeling stagnated in, you know, basically every aspect. And so I was like, look, I, I need to kind of dig in and really figure out what's this nugget. You know, I'm tired of feeling like I'm, you know, kind of spinning my wheels here. And so I began reading, you know, a lot of different books. Watching again, I literally, I probably wouldn't believe how many YouTube videos I watched. And initially, it was this idea of just, you know, I'll tell you, I knew. I knew I was an empath before I knew I was addicted. And so a lot of my initial discovery was like, what does it mean to be somebody who, like, picks up on other people's energies and kind of follows these patterns that people are otherwise missing? And that thread led me to, you know, other stuff. Like, even in my entrepreneurial life, one of my biggest challenges is feeling like I'm working at a different pace than others and being, like, really confused about that. Like, why is it that everybody I run into, I feel like I'm running at a different pace. I don't feel like I'm, you know, Superman or somebody from, you know, that fell from the heavens.

Patrick Cassell (6:21)

Right.

Sheldon Gay (6:22)

And so how is it that this applies to me? And so through that discovery, particularly a book called. Or I'll just name one of the particular books, I should say, Living with Intensity. That was one of those books that, you know, spoke about positive disintegration and overexcitabilities where I was like, oh, wait, this is talking about me. Like, how did you. Did you guys, like, set up a camera and, like, write this book about me? Right? Like, so that's, you know, what really turned me onto it. And then being gifted, you know, not necessarily realizing at the time, but being gifted, once we kind of get onto a topic that's of interest, then it's down the rabbit hole we go. And so that's kind of what led me here, is as I kept pulling back the layers, I saw more and more of my true self, the self that I had been hiding for so long, the self that I had been denying for so long, the self that I hadn't been able to love in the way that deserved for so long. And so that's kind of what brought me here.

Dr. Neff (7:28)

There's something you said that my brain's kind of sticking to the idea that I'd been hiding. I'm curious about that. Like, the hiding of the giftedness. Is that the part was there? Yeah, I'm curious to hear more about that.

Sheldon Gay (7:44)

Yeah, man, you say that I come to this with a lot of emotion. This is a core piece of that. So in general, a lot of gifted folks speak about, you know, kind of having to shrink for folks. A lot of that, you know, comes from other people's insecurity, if I'm being honest.

Dr. Neff (8:07)

Right.

Sheldon Gay (8:08)

And so you step into a space, and actually, I'll give you the slightly less crude version of the analogy that I gave someone the other day, you know, particularly after a bad dating experience, which maybe we'll go into. But I said, you know, imagine being someone who every time you walk into a room, everyone else belches. And so, you know, that sound, that smell has nothing to do with you, but you're still having to be a part of, you're still having to deal.

Dr. Neff (8:44)

With if you're an empath because then you're also picking it up. So you're coming, there's a reaction and then you pick it up with so much intensity.

Sheldon Gay (8:56)

Sparkle super bright right now. Yes, like my brain, that you're 100% on point. Right. So when you add, not every gifted person necessarily identifies as being empathic, but I certainly do. And so that meant that again, before it was ever about anything beyond, let's say, you know, picking up on other people's feelings, there was this thing of you walk into a room and you, it just feels overwhelming. And so having to find a way to move into a space where you don't have that feeling of overwhelm, where again, without getting into any of the extra sparkliness. I tell people one of my challenges has been I can walk into a room, I can look at somebody and just say, hey, what's up? What's wrong? And they will be completely thrown off. And people don't like being seen past their mask. Right. And so it becomes a very awkward thing because I've been given this, you know, you know, cape and kryptonite. What I, you know, what I'm starting to call it, right, this, this cape and kryptonite around being able to pick up on those things. And so when you know that it feels like it's hurting people or it's causing like painful interactions, find ways to kind of hide that. And so that becomes even more true when you think about, you know, having answers to questions or, you know, being able to solve things quickly. Particularly because I think, excuse me, in that way, so much of how our society is set up is around it. It is, there is this anti intellectual is a piece. But what I really want to speak to that I don't necessarily hear a lot of people speaking to is the fact that we sort of deify intellectual identity. And what I mean by that is everyone wants to feel that they are the smartest person in the room. But when it becomes clear that that isn't true, it causes a lot of pain for some folks if they're not in a secure place. And then that energy has to go Somewhere, and often that's towards somebody who may be completely unsuspecting. And I definitely felt that in a lot of ways as a child especially. And then, like I said, you know, as an adult in work environments where your boss may not have the degrees that you have, may not be able to pick up on it. Like, again, we can go on any number of routes, you know, as it relates to that, but that's. Yeah, like, a lot of hiding. But that does not come to it anymore. So, sorry, everyone.

Dr. Neff (11:49)

I love the piece about everyone wants to be the smartest in the room and how intimidating it is to be around people who are highly, highly intelligent, and then that can bring on human defenses, Right?

Patrick Cassell (12:02)

Absolutely.

Dr. Neff (12:03)

It was interesting. A few people. We've had lots of conversations about this in my community, and what a few people were sharing was the relief they felt the first time they were in a room and they realized other people were smarter than them. I was like. And I. I don't experience that because I'm. I mean, sometimes I'm the smartest person in the room, but that. That would not be my normative experience. So, like, I definitely don't experience relief from that. But it was so interesting to be like, oh, that makes so much sense if you're always kind of right, like, masking the intelligence. The relief of I'm in a room and people are smarter than me. And that was such a flip for me. That wouldn't. That wouldn't be my instinct.

Sheldon Gay (12:42)

Yeah, no, I love that you shared that, because, you know, one of the things that people talked about was like, well, how could you not know, Sheldon, all these years? Right? How could you not know that you were, you know, gifted or whatever? And, you know, to that point, one of the things that. That comes out of that is that there's this sort of. You've got to be able to be able to see outside of yourself in a way. But when you don't have a reference point that is properly, like, beyond where you are, or more so mirrored with where you are, it can be very difficult. Like, I always thought that everybody had the same brain, right? I just. That was kind of my. My kind of idea. But I just thought that, you know, maybe because of the schools that I went to or maybe because I just sat down and read the books, that I kind of just had that leg up in that way. Um, and then again, when you get into these spaces where you're. You see other people moving even faster, there's a lot of relief around that, you know, particularly because Like I said, now you don't even feel like we have to. To bear the burden of carrying parts of the conversation of. I mean, so many different. Excuse me. So many different things. And so it is counterintuitive. And that's, again, another reason why it's so hard to kind of discover. Because that's not where your brain would automatically go. It doesn't necessarily follow that you'd be relieved by that. So instead you feel broken. Instead you feel weird. But why is it that I feel this way in so many, you know, different aspects?

Dr. Neff (14:21)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Cassell (14:23)

I can really relate to what you're saying, especially when we're talking about intensity and walking into the room and immediately picking up on it. And it almost is like we almost have to dull ourselves down to. To kind of fit in or belong or adjust. And it's almost like turning the thermostat down in a way, and to, like, really be authentic because there's so much judgment in that. In that component, or there's so much pressure sometimes to. To be that person. So it also keeps you small in a lot of ways, too.

Sheldon Gay (15:02)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, talk a little bit about the pressure, I would say, as well. You know, specifically, even as a black person, one of the challenges is, you know, some folks will be familiar with this concept of a talented 10. And if you're not familiar, the very. You know, my black historians, please don't, like, you know, get at me, because I don't kind of get into full details. But what I would say is the talented 10th was essentially this concept of, you know, kind of the creme de la creme. The black community, the intellectuals, the, you know, just everybody kind of being really successful. And that group was sort of asked to kind of lead the way, as it were. And so in many families, you can, you know, particularly because how the systems of oppressions have structured, you know, life for a lot of marginalized communities, where you're that one who gets out, you're that one who gets to do the thing. Well, when you do get to be that one, there's a lot of pressure because everybody's looking to you to do the exceptional thing, and maybe you don't actually care about that thing. And so now you may shrink to be like, okay, let me lower these expectations because I don't want to become a doctor. Right. I don't care about that. I might have the mental capacity to do that, but it's not something I'm interested in. And so you shrink yourself so that people stop kind of holding you to that expectation. People stop asking you those questions. No one discovers, wait, why are you over here working in. I used to work in retail. I had a graduate degree. I'll tell you, I had a graduate degree and I worked in VTM and for various different reasons. But imagine being in that position and people wondering, why are you here? You should be over there and having to kind of navigate that conversation. And so, yeah, on many different levels, you can find all kinds of reasons to shrink.

Dr. Neff (17:08)

That makes so much sense as you unpack that. And I really appreciate you adding that layer of nuance because that's been a theme a lot of people have talked about, kind of the gap between, Right. Like, what one quote should be capable of and then achievement and how that gap can be confusing for a lot of folks. But then if you add in this layer of pressure, right. Like, of the people that we've talked to so far, none of them are like, and I'm letting down, like. Like I feel the pressure representing a group or I'm letting down my people, but adding in that pressure. And then there. I would assume there'd also be pressure from majority, like, dominant culture as well, that would be coming from both sides. Like, that just would make that experience around that gap of kind of cognitive ability and achievement so much more painful and so much more pressured.

Sheldon Gay (18:02)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, and to that point, again, going back to the sort of the nexus of my journey here, I was working at great companies but not being promoted. Right. And so now you're feeling this, you know, like you're running to this wall. You're like, well, I feel like I'm smart enough. I feel like I'm working hard enough, but I'm not getting there. Why is that? And at least a part of the truth, just as a. An aside, is because of, again, how I showed up and my need for complexity beyond kind of my corporate kind of asks you to do this. Like, this is your job. We give you these tasks, you go and do these tasks. But that doesn't really vibe with, you know, how my mind works. I'm kind of like, that's cool, I can do that. But, like, I need a little bit more sparkle on top. And, you know, that doesn't necessarily always a vibe. Particularly, like I said, again, I'll. I'll say, as a black person, I've seen any number of instances where I show up in a space. The expectations for me are super, super low. When I exceed them, you would think, oh, this is great. Let's get this guy on it. No, no, no. That, you know, is an affront to many people's, you know, conscious or unconscious bias. And so now you're faced with people who are stealing your ideals. You're faced with people who are doing your ideals. Right. Because how dare you be the one who shows up and outshines me. I've been doing this for X number of years. And so there's, like I said, there's definitely a lot of that that gets added, added in there. And I feel like I missed one, one piece that I was going to say, but. But yeah, I mean, I think, like I said, that's a, That's a really important point around that, that pressure.

Dr. Neff (19:46)

So I have a question and I feel uncomfortable asking it, which makes me.

Sheldon Gay (19:51)

Safe space. Safe space.

Dr. Neff (19:53)

Yeah. So I've been thinking about this idea of both, like, gifted masking and code switching. And correct me if this is a wrong assumption, but I would think as a, as a black man with high iq, gifted, like, there's the, there's the really terrible stereotype of black men not being smart. So on one hand, I would think there'd be pressure to, like, break that stereotype. But then I would think if you go into a room, especially of white people and you're the smartest one, that would, that would invoke the white people defenses, which I would guess you also wouldn't want to do. So is there this, like, double bind of, like, I want to not play into the stereotype they might have of me of being unintelligent, but I also don't want to invoke their defenses by showing how intelligent I am? Is that absolutely.

Sheldon Gay (20:44)

No, you're. Yeah, there's. And, and, and thank you for speaking to the discomfort around that, but I think you're perfectly fine. And what you asked. And like I said, again, you're, you're definitely on point. You know, I was even just the other day talking to somebody. You know, I was born in Philly. You know, North Philly, for those who are familiar, which, you know, most of North Philly is, you know, not well to do. I'll say. Right. And so, you know, there's a cultural aspect to that, that when I come into a space that again, right now I'm wearing a hoodie. Right. Like, I tell people, I can wear a hoodie, I can wear tux. Right. I can talk to you as if we are, again, on a corner in North Philly, or I can talk to you as if we're, you know, in, you know, one of these Ivory towers. The problem becomes, you know, again, people's expectations when you walk into a room and what their level of comfort is. And that goes back to, like I said, the analogy that I gave, right. It's like every time you walk into a room, you're always assessing who's prepared for how I'm going to show up. Because how I show up is going to be so different than what is, you know, probably their expectation. And that is tiring. That is a lot to deal with. That then, you know, can turns into tension within me because anytime you feel like you're not being authentic, right, it creates this tension within yourself, which, again, all the energy has to go somewhere. And sometimes that will turn into an irritated response to what someone says to me. And as a gifted person, being highly sensitive to injustice, right, that's going to turn that dial up. And so, yeah, there's definitely a lot of that that is at play. And so, you know, the beauty of having awareness now, though, is that I can do something about it. I can kind of know what's happening and I can know where to push. You know, when I talk to people, I say, you know, know when to wear your hoodie. And so that analogy for me is a lot of times when people think about masking or navigating different spaces, they feel. They. They. They feel that they have to give a part of themselves up to go and be in a space that maybe doesn't look like them. And what I say is, know when to wear your hoodie. And that means you can bring your hoodie with me. But if it's. If I was going outside, it's 110 degrees. I'm not wearing my hoodie in 110. 110 degrees, right. Like, I know that that's not the appropriate place with it, but I could, I can keep it with me in case the temperature drops, right? So it's always with me. I don't have to give it up. So that, that thing, that fear of loss doesn't have to be there. But then when it's appropriate, I can know to go ahead and pull my hood up and have that conversation. Excuse me. And so that's, like I said, a key part of it is just with my awareness now I know what I'm carrying with me, and I know that I don't have to give it up. Before, it was a lot of, like, I don't know what's going on, and I'm kind of like lashing out because I know there's injustice here. But I'm also frustrated with myself because I'm wondering, why are you so different?

Dr. Neff (24:08)

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like this discovery and the language you've developed has really helped you find a way to hold onto your identity and navigate while navigating these spaces thoughtfully. And I think that I, first of all, I just love that know when to wear your hoodie. I think that's such, like, that could be such a good mantra for like, unmasking safely. Like, in the autism space. There's a lot of conversation around unmasking, and with that conversation has to be nuanced with safety of, like, it's not always safe to unmask. And it has to be so, like, knowing when to wear your hoodie, it's. But I get to have my hoodie with me as comfort. I just love that because it's. You're prioritizing safety. You're not giving away part of yourself. It's actually a deep way of honoring it. Of I'm honoring myself and honoring my safety in this moment.

Sheldon Gay (24:53)

Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing that word safety explicitly into the space, because that's exactly what it's about, right? All of us in the broader neurodivergent community are familiar with those times when it's not safe to. To speak. You know, just kind of let our indie flag fly, right? And so acknowledging that that truth is there. And again, particularly, you know, not to necessarily go down that rabbit hole too much, but I'll say that to me, one of the things that I appreciated about friend of mine who goes by Supernova Mama online, she is a black woman who, she has many different neurotypes under. Under her belt, but she, you know, identifies as autistic, and she has two autistic children. And she does a lot of work around helping people parent from a positive place, particularly for neurodivergent children, autistic children. And so I bring her up because one of the things that she helped to bring awareness to is that the way that people from what I call melanated and marginalized communities, the way that, for example, we stem may be different and those things that we do may be those things that are also already stigmatized. And so again, there's this extra layer of not being safe. Not just like people may not like you, but now you're going to have to face the same, you know, BS that you're already facing in another way. But just amplify it now because you're not just black, you're a weird black person. Right?

Dr. Neff (26:41)

So this. And again, not to go too deep down this route trail looks back eventually, but this. I've learned so much from Tiff Hammond in this space as well. Pigeon and fries talking about this. And I think this especially picks up heat when the ABA conversation comes up. Like, you can't have a conversation of pro, ABA or anti ABA without talking about all of the systems of oppression that we exist on. And so, for example, a child learning to not stim. Right. That can be a safety measure. And just, we have. We need so much space for complexity, which unfortunately, sometimes the way we're hosting conversations aren't able to hold a lot of space for complexity. But I feel like I've learned so much because the autistic advocacy space is historically a very white space. And so I'm really appreciative of the voices that I've been learning from the last couple of years around. We just need so much more space for complexity in all of these conversations.

Sheldon Gay (27:48)

Yeah, no, I thank you for saying that. And I agree. I mean, you know, again, let's, let's call it out. I mean, one of the things that has been interesting for me as I move deeper into, again, the broader neurodivergence space is seeing how wide it is. And so it's another reminder of, again, these systems have impact across all the lines. And so there's this, there's this beauty and then there's this pain around that because it's like, I thought, like, I'm, I was so excited. I came into this room where I thought all my people were going to be, and then it's like, oh, wait, like, we are still, like, I've got to, still got to fight this, this, this battle, right? I can't completely take off the, the, you know, justice warrior hat or whatever, right? Like, I've got to still do, do that. But the beauty in it for me is now having my awareness, you know, having my able body, having all the things that I come with, even my male privilege, right? That. Bringing those things into the space and being able to advocate and say, look, this is, you know, how I'm showing up is another voice and how I, you know, bring others into the space. This is how we kind of start to change the conversation to something that's much more, more inclusive. And so there's, there's that opportunity to do that.

Dr. Neff (29:13)

Absolutely, Yeah.

Patrick Cassell (29:18)

I have a question for you. In our email exchange, you had brought up a question that said something to the extent of, like, is being gifted hard? And I just want to, like, Put you on the spot asking that what you. Okay, that's what your responses.

Sheldon Gay (29:38)

Yeah, so. So first, let me say that again, I've listened to, you know, previous episodes. If you haven't listened, go back and listen. Absolutely fantastic episodes. And this was sparked by, you know, one of the questions or one of the pieces of the discussion around. Is it hard? And first of all, I love Emily. Absolutely. Like, big, big fan. Right. But what I would add to the discussion is to say that even what we've talked about so far, I think that kind of definitively says that there are challenges with being gifted. And I know that that is talked about a little bit there, but I wouldn't want us to completely dismiss that, because that's one of the biggest pains is that, you know, as a gifted person, it's hard to talk about the things that are challenging because everybody's like, oh, you can figure it out. You can do this. You know, you'll be fine. You know, why, why, why Cry into your river? But it's like, I'm still a human being. I still have things that I need, that my needs aren't always met, particularly because they. It may. It may be that there is no one who can meet them. You know, again, to just vary, you know, to bring up dating, for example, or even just friendship. Right. But like, just broadly being in relationship with people, I think about it like this. And let me also say I don't believe that IQ is the definitive way of defining giftedness. Right. I'm not advocating for that at all. But if we said that this is a model that we're going to kind of just base this discussion around, if the top. Let's say even 5% or there's a 5. 5%, let me say top. That's how I put judgment on it. Let's say there's 5% of the entire population that can come close to understanding your lived experience. That means every hundred people that you meet, there's only four other people who have any chance of really being able to understand your lived experience and mirror you, which is a key part of being human is having. Mirroring out of those four, how many of those will. It's not like every gifted person is the same, right? So that number gets even smaller. And fundamentally, what we're all running around here doing is looking for community. We're looking for connection. And so this idea that there is this very minuscule group of people who can truly understand and mirror your lived experience, and that's really the core of what you're looking to do that's really, really hard. That's an existential burden that, again, is inescapable because it's not as if you can just. There's not. There's no amount of books or videos or, I don't know, whatever you might give to people that would. Then they may be more informed, but that won't necessarily, you know, bring out the curiosity, the depth, the complexity, the, you know, overexcitabilities, all those different things that necessarily. That will empower them in that way. And so, you know, maybe that's a simple way of kind of putting it is that, again, if we're all looking for connection and, you know, off the bat that, like, your ability to connect with people is significantly diminished. That's tough. There's certainly a lot of privilege. And I'll just, you know, I want to say this piece, and then we can. We can talk about this a little bit more if you want. But, like, I do want to acknowledge the privilege part of it. One of the things, and I think I say this in some of my early episodes, and if I don't, let me say it now, which is that one of the things that also emboldens me to speak up is that I know that despite all of that, me having a label of gifted is very different than a label of dyslexia, of autism, of whatever. And so how I blame light and humanize our collective neurodivergent experience. I leverage that. I leverage that. I. I totally get that it's challenging, but it's. There's certainly a level of privilege that comes with it, but I would absolutely say that. Yeah. I mean, again, there. There's no way around it. I can't feed anybody a book that would help them mirror me in that way. So.

Patrick Cassell (33:55)

Yeah.

Dr. Neff (33:56)

And that.

Patrick Cassell (33:56)

Oh, sorry.

Dr. Neff (33:58)

No, go ahead, Patrick.

Patrick Cassell (34:00)

I think you're spot on. I mean, from all the episodes we've done, the one thing that continues to stand out to me, because I would identify as gifted, but twice exceptional as an autistic, ADHD gifted human.

Sheldon Gay (34:14)

That it.

Patrick Cassell (34:15)

The relatability piece. Right. Like you're saying, especially when you break it down with, like, if it's four out of every hundred people, right. Or however many people you already struggle to relate to, people in general, then you add on the complexity of it all, and it makes a lot of, like, fake it till you make it situations happen where you're like, I want to fit in. I want to relate in some way. So I'm going to, like, maybe dull myself out over here so that I put all of my mental energy into this one thing that people are either talking about or connecting around. And then you find yourself just feeling, like, vacant in a lot of ways and missed in a lot of ways. And it takes an enormous amount of mental energy to do that, like song and dance over and over and over again.

Sheldon Gay (35:06)

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, finding spaces where you don't have to carve out any piece of yourself is a blessing. You know, there are a couple of different places where I've experienced that, and I will name this school because I love this school so much for a lot of different reasons. But there's a school that I attended when I was younger in the D.C. area called Lowell. And I tell people it's my favorite school, this. And it's not even. There's not even a close second at all. Because when I was there, I never had to feel like. And this is like elementary school, I never felt like I had to carve out a piece of myself. I could always be my authentic self. And the curriculum there as well is much more experiential, right? And so it's not just about, you know, okay, kids, we're going to learn about, you know, whatever math today and go. Just kind of rote memory kind of stuff. It's no, like, let's bring this, this math alive. Let's bring the science alive for people. And so having that experience even at a young age where I was like, yes, this is what I've been waiting for. Like, I don't just want to sit down and read a book. I want to actually, like, get my hands dirty and see all the different, you know, colors here. Knowing, going through your life and realizing how rare that is. It is. It's tough, but when you find it, you know, you really, really get to appreciate it. But again, that's something that, you know, it's tough. And the amount of energy that it takes to. To, you know, be comfortable in spaces that aren't going to meet all of those needs, as it were. That. That. That's an unspoken truth. And I'll say this this fast and really quickly because you just reminded me one of the experiences. I've always been gifted, right? Like, this is who I've always been. I received a label. I received a level of understanding. And I can tell you, those first couple of months, it was like this weird emergence from a cocoon experience, like, literally, right? Because all of a sudden I started to hear the things and see the things and taste the things that had Always been there in the background, but I had no way to really understand what the heck it was. And so a lot of this is this. These unmet needs, a lot of this is as well, these learned patterns of shrinking that were there that now my body was like, you know, I don't want to do this. Or you're realizing how much weight you've been carrying. So your body, like, literally wants to fall asleep because you're realizing now you're aware of this big boulder that's on your shoulders. It's kind of like, know they say the adrenaline or whatever, will you get. Get hurt? And once that wears off, all of a sudden it's like, oh, shoot, you know, so, like, that's really what that was like for me. So hopefully that.

Dr. Neff (38:16)

I'm having lots of associations. I'm going to try to rein one of them in. So interesting to me. And one of the ways that you're different from the other guests we've had so far, as far as, you know. And I know you said you're open to it, like, you're gifted, but not otherwise neurodivergence. So I've been really. It's been so interesting to hear about your process and how closely it parallels my autism discovery process and, like, the process I tend to be in general around an autism or ADHD discovery, around, like, the. The liberation. The. Like, I can finally take my needs seriously, therefore, I can care for my needs. But also the heightened sense of, like, all of a sudden we become aware of our sensory issues that we've perhaps been dissociating from. And it's like life. All of a sudden it's like, wait, I don't know how to life anymore. Like, it just feels really hard all of a sudden because now I have language and awareness. So it's just so interesting to me because I've been curious about this as we've gone through this. I'm like, okay, so far we've talked about the 2e experience, but what is the gifted neurodivergent experience? And not that there's just one, but so it's really interesting to hear how profound this discovery was for you and how it did similar things. And all of a sudden things felt hard, but also there was, like, permission to not have to carve out parts of yourself in the way you've been doing, not have to hide. Yeah.

Sheldon Gay (39:38)

Just.

Dr. Neff (39:38)

It parallels it.

Sheldon Gay (39:40)

Yeah. I'm sorry, we want to say something else.

Dr. Neff (39:43)

No, I was just. That was my.

Sheldon Gay (39:46)

No, no, no.

Patrick Cassell (39:46)

Okay, that's.

Sheldon Gay (39:47)

No, no, no. So what you reminded me of is an analogy that I gave folks early on, which is that it was. It was like waking up in a spaceship. Like, I literally felt like I woke up in a spaceship. And all of a sudden you see, like, all these flashing lights, like, buttons are all over the place. You're like, what the heck, right? Where before in my life, I was told that I'm. Where I felt that I was in a car, I had a car. And so life tells you, whatever, you change your oil, you rotate your tires, you do all the different things. And so I'm doing those things, but it's not having the same impact that it's having for others. And I'm like, well, I think I'm doing this right. I'm following the same steps everybody else is, but it's not having the same impact. And then when you wake up in a spaceship, you realize, oh, I don't even have time. And that's why that didn't work for me. Um, and so it was this beautiful thing of, like, I don't need to worry about that. I can let that expectation go. I can not even try to worry about that. I can then say, let me take care of all these things that are flashing now. Get those things in order in the way that works for me. And, you know, even now, like, I've started to. To listen to things at higher speeds. So, like, I listen to a podcast, I listen to it at a higher speed, where before I might have felt weird about doing that or any number of things, but now I'm like, no, like, this is how I prefer to listen to things. But it also makes me realize, well, shoot. Actually, literally the other day, it was the weirdest experience because I moved back down to my regular speed and it sounded like it was in slow motion, literally. But I was like, but this is the normal. The normal speed. So, um, again, just having those kinds of realizations about yourself and then kind of like how you're operating within the world is a. Is a blessing.

Dr. Neff (41:41)

So I love the spaceship. I love a good mentor. So I love that, like, I've. I thought I was driving a car. It's a spaceship. Turns out it needs different care. So I actually think that segues well into our next question. I wanted to ask you about your thoughts about, like, how self care or therapy might be different for a gifted person. And thinking about the spaceship, it's like, well, yeah, a spaceship needs different maintenance, different care.

Sheldon Gay (42:03)

Yes.

Dr. Neff (42:04)

A different approach.

Sheldon Gay (42:04)

Approach, yes. Thank you so much for bringing this. This is. Man, so again, going back to this whole thing of, like, this journey to self awareness, one of the most frustrating things is I was going to therapy. I was going in and sitting in therapy and I was doing work, but I felt like I wasn't making enough progress. Like, I felt like I was kind of just like, okay, like, I'm here because it's healthy to do, but not really feeling the benefits. Um, and some of that is because the ways in which I was showing up, let me say some of the. A lot of the stuff is because there was a lot of pathology that was applied to things that were just natural for me. Right. You know, a simple example is catastrophe catastrophizing. You know, sure, that can happen when someone's kind of just trying to read too much into the leaves and da, da, da, da. But if you actually have a mind that can see patterns and that's what's actually happening, happening, then a therapist telling you to stop doing that can make you feel a certain type of way and can also be unhelpful to you because, no, my brain's really seeing these things. And one of my biggest traumas in life, in fact, is around me seeing things. People telling me that I'm bad for saying, you know, pointing that thing out or that I'm completely wrong and then coming back and, like, the truth being what I said years ago or months ago or however long ago, and having to live through that loop, constantly on that loop. And so therapy can be a challenge if someone's not aware of what's happening. It can also be challenging if, I mean, again, you sit in a room and you're pouring out all the things that are inside your head. But if inside your head is this, like, megacholidoscope. Right? Therapy. Go ahead, what are you gonna say?

Patrick Cassell (44:01)

It almost makes you not want to say it out loud, right?

Dr. Neff (44:04)

Yeah.

Patrick Cassell (44:05)

Where I've sat as a. As a therapy client thinking, like, having that medicalidoscope. I love that from, like, I don't think I want to put any of this out there, like, because I know how it's gonna sound, but I know happening, right? And those associations are so real. I'm so glad you named that. Of seeing those patterns of, like, potential worst case scenario in. In all scenarios to a T. And that means, like, friends can say, like, there was a downer. You're always thinking so cynically. You're always, like, thinking worst case scenario. And I'm like. But I see the pattern. Like, I see this is going 10 steps ahead.

Sheldon Gay (44:43)

Like, Right.

Patrick Cassell (44:44)

That's right for me.

Sheldon Gay (44:48)

That's exactly it. And so again, let me shout out my therapist. Obviously not by name, but he knows who he is. And if he does listen to this episode, I tell him all the time, thank you so much. I didn't feel the emotions. Being able to work with him is a truly, truly special experience. If you can find someone who can digest and at least humanize that, that, you know, mega kaleidoscope that you got going on, like, it is a special thing because I don't know if you've all watched this movie. It's on Netflix's called Studs where. What is his name? I'm bad with names. I think it's Jonah Hill speaks to his therapist. It's like a movie about him speaking with his therapist and like his therapist life. But long story short, like, the point is, is that, you know, being. If you're in therapy and you're lying, you're keeping a piece of you hidden, you can't really make progress. Right. But again, going back to this thing of like, no amount of reading will give them that ability to fully grasp, particularly if you're showing up in spaces. It's so hard to find a black therapist. It's so hard to find. I mean, sure, I'm gifted therapist, right? Like when you're showing up with all these things that you need and that person on the other side that you're paying good money is not giving it to you, you're not able to get what you need. And it's, it's not through effort all the time, right. It's not because you just didn't try. I've tried to pour it all out and I didn't get what I needed and sometimes I got something bad in return. And so, yeah, that, that definitely is. Watch. Therapy can be really challenging or many. One of the reasons, right.

Patrick Cassell (46:43)

I think there's like very. There's not a lot as painful as like just feeling unseen, especially by someone supposed to be like, unbelievably trained and skillful and well versed. All of the things and even uses some of the buzzwords or language that you want. And you go through the entire process of finding this person and then you just feel like you just don't see me at all. Like, I, I can't my authentic self because you just don't get it.

Sheldon Gay (47:08)

Yeah, it's really. Yeah, I, I left many sessions very frustrated. And again, because the dynamic that's set up is that this therapist is supposed to be the one that like, has the answers. And so you're the one that's the, the one that's messing up. You're the one that's broken. You're the one that's got to go figure out, well, why is it that you're feeling this way? And so now it's like, no, I know what's happening. I know myself. I know that I'm not just, you know, wanting to see the bad things or whatever. Right. Like, it's just the way that my mind works in a similar way, I can see lots of the great things. Right. It's just a pattern. And so having that space to feel seen is super powerful.

Dr. Neff (47:52)

It also reminds me of self trust, which I think has come up a few times in this series. And that's a topic that comes up a lot with, in general, in neurodivergent, later in life, identified spaces of just how hard it is to trust ourselves because of the disconnect, because of not being mirrored, because of the invalidation. So even the ability to, like, have that experience and to be able to trust yourself of, like, I'm not getting out of this therapy what I think I should be. That's really hard for a lot of people.

Sheldon Gay (48:22)

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That, that self trust piece. I mean, daily, daily, daily. I've got. I tell people I've got this like, virtual vision board, as it were. I don't. It's not even necessarily the perfect words where the bottom line is that there's a list of my Google Slides that I have where I read all to myself to remind myself of different things. And one of the biggest things is to trust myself. And that's like spelled out in multiple different ways, like, to trust myself. Because I spent so much of my life doing the complete opposite. I'm like, okay, Sheldon, like, this is, you know, here you are trying to pull your magic again, right? And it's like. But it's not magic, Sheldon. You're not. This is not a, you know, a random happenstance that you're able to do this thing or see this thing or, you know, whatever, Right? Like, trust that what you're seeing is what it is. Trust that you can make sense out of what you're experiencing and not.

Patrick Cassell (49:24)

You.

Sheldon Gay (49:24)

Know, beat yourself up about it. Love yourself from that space.

Dr. Neff (49:28)

So I love that that's. That's part of your vision board. I think Oliver could absolutely benefit from cultivating more self trust.

Sheldon Gay (49:40)

It's a, it's a beautiful. It's really, really helped me. So, yeah, please, you know, even if it's a little post it note for yourself. Like I, I definitely recommend it.

Dr. Neff (49:52)

Well, I think that ties into what you started with too, with like being an empath. I think when we're kind of hyper queued into other people's signals, it can also make it hard to like know what's us and what's others and to get wires crossed. And there's, there's so many layers to trusting ourselves, even from like whose emotion is this right now that I'm feeling.

Sheldon Gay (50:13)

Yeah, yeah. Whose emotion is this and whose burden is it to carry it? Right. Those are like two really key key points because you know, again, if you walk into the like what. I'm at the point now where I am much, much better about drawing that boundary. And so again, even if someone else's emotions takes up the room or is just kind of very present in the room, I'm very clear about I'm not abandoning them if I don't tend to those needs. I'm not doing something bad to them. It's not that I'm uncaring, it's just that that's their thing to carry and I can't solve that for them no matter how much I see you're feeling this way. One of the things I read to myself, you try to remember off the top of my head, but I forgive myself for using or, yeah, using empathy as an excuse for being other people's punching bag. Right. Because again, if I'm seeing, I know what's going on within you, I want to help you. I see, like, let me help. But there's like boxing with me and it's like, Sheldon, you got to step outside of that boxing ring. It's not for you to, to fight that battle. They've got to do that work for themselves. You can offer that space, that safe space, that container that if they're open to feedback, like, sure. But otherwise that's their stuff. Sit it in their lap and let them run with it.

Dr. Neff (51:48)

I'm having a little bit of an aha moment and we'll see if this idea sticks or not. But earlier in the conversation we're talking about like the statistics and it's hard to find people that can mirror and connect. And if you're in any kind of neurominority, that would be true. And I just now thinking to how so many of us adapt to disconnected by becoming people pleasers and I'm thinking about how often I would tune into someone else's rhythm and I wonder if it's partly because it Was so unusual for me to feel in sync with another human. If it's like my way of accommodating of, well, I can sink into your rhythm and then for a moment I'm going to feel rhythmically connected to another human. But the problem is I'm always sinking into other people's rhythms. Yeah, to feel that connection.

Sheldon Gay (52:30)

Yeah, no, that, that is light bulb, like beautiful light bulb at that. Because yeah, it again you, when you have that ability, it's like if I were a multi talented dancer, right? Like if I, okay, I'm going to salsa over here. I'm going to, you know, whatever the hip hop dance over here and not like that famous like you know, video of the woman that, if you all know what I'm talking about, you know, you know that me. But you know, maybe I'm doing all these different dances, but what's my dance? Right? Like, and if I never tune to what dance I want, I'm going to feel that loss, consciously or otherwise. And so, yeah, finding that way to, you know, no winchance and let other people dance by themselves, as it were, to be really more powerful.

Dr. Neff (53:26)

Interestingly, I actually spent a lot of high school dancing by myself in my room. It was like, I now know. It's like that was one of my favorite stems. It was like I would put on music and I would dance for hours.

Sheldon Gay (53:36)

That is. I'm so glad you said that because that was definitely one of the things that supernova mama talked about is just the different dancing which again, in a, in a larger conversation can be had around. For me, I'm very passionate as well as helping, you know, melanated and marginalized communities create more awareness around this. Because some of the language that we've been using for years has actually been referring to neurodivergence. But we've been calling it other things, even looking at it in other ways. And when we, it's, it's, it's sad but interesting to see times when people are kind of pointing this stigmatized finger at others for neurodivergence explicitly. And then if you held up a mirror and they could see themselves, you'd be like, dude, like you're one of us. Like, you're right. Like so, you know, but the language that we use, if we can find ways to, like I said, help people create that awareness and that love, that the most important thing is for people to be able to safely love themselves from that space because otherwise the shame and all that stuff starts to creep in and then you, you know, no. Progress can go.

Dr. Neff (54:45)

Yeah. So this is kind of an abrupt pivot, but I'm looking at our time and knowing it's about. And you had said something in our exchange that got my interest, which was more specifically around dating, while Gibson, which. I have some thoughts about where you might go with that, but I'm really curious, kind of. Yeah. What has been your experience? What are your thoughts about maybe how this impacts dating?

Sheldon Gay (55:12)

Yeah, it's.

Patrick Cassell (55:13)

It's.

Sheldon Gay (55:14)

It's a. It's a journey. I mean, all dating is a journey. All of this kind of, like, uncomfortable dance of. Of figuring each other out is a journey. But it's also even going back to what I was talking about earlier. One of the challenges is, I'll give you a couple of different. Different things that are really kind of interesting to stick out to me. One is, first of all, you can be pathologized. I. I mean, I. I know the person that I'm talking about will not listen to this, but I went on a date and, excuse me. I literally had this person, you know, due to their own insecurities, get uncomfortable and say, well, oh, I should have known because your name is Sheldon, just like the guy from Big Bang Theory. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, wow. I don't consider myself to be very much like that. I don't watch Big Bang Theory. I watch young Sheldon. But. So I don't. I can't necessarily speak 100 to that.

Dr. Neff (56:15)

But if it's no Sheldon, adult Sheldon is, like, very kind of. Not masochistic. That's not the word I'm looking for. Misogynistic. Like, it. You feel you have very different vibes than Sheldon.

Sheldon Gay (56:28)

Okay. Yeah, no, that. Yeah. I mean, thank you for saying that. That makes me feel even better about the. The universe, you know, pivoting me away from that. But that's the kind of stuff that, you know, just in general.

Patrick Cassell (56:42)

Right.

Sheldon Gay (56:42)

You show up, and again, you're.

Dr. Neff (56:46)

You.

Sheldon Gay (56:46)

You have all this complexity going on. Like, just a simple question. In dating, early on especially, it can be overwhelming for people. But again, where does that energy go? Does that. Are you dealing with someone who's secure enough to just say, hey, like, I didn't quite grasp all of that? And we talk, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. Or is it somebody who's like, you're trying to browbeat me? And you're like, I just shared, like, this really, what I thought was a really cool insight. Right. And so that can be difficult. So now, again, going back to this whole thing of hiding, it's like, how much of this I've got this whole big thing where I don't want to carve off this little piece. But as well, like, one of the things I'm always mindful of too, is I don't want to ever sell anybody across from the short. Right. So there's that dance as well. It's like, if I've got this big packet of stuff going on and I give you this little piece, what is that? What does that feel like on the other end? And as well, it may be a missed opportunity. They might be sitting there. Man, I wish he had more to say now. Be like, you know, there's. There's this, this really interesting piece of it. What I would also say is, you know, their dating can be hard because finding ultimately with. With romantic dating, again, you're looking for that super intimate. And without even getting to, like I said, the physical aspect intimacy is. But like, just true, expansive intimacy. You want to be able to be away, sorry, be across from somebody who is able to mirror you. And again, that can be difficult. And you can get bored. Not because you dislike the person, right? Not because you don't enjoy time with them at all. But now you're always kind of in the back of your mind, like, how much further can this joyride go? And so, yeah, whether it's kind of dodging the insecurities that everybody deals with, but then again, this kind of gets amplified because as I said earlier, with the thing around how we deal with intelligence as a core piece of our identity, it's hard for people to detach from intelligence as a core piece of their identity. And so when you question that, it can be. Get really nasty in dating experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, those are, those are some of the challenges. But the last thing I'll just say, I always like to leave with a good piece of it. It can be really beautiful because then when you enter in spaces where someone does have that capacity, or at least that curiosity, you have something to offer that is distinctly different. Like, distinctly distinctly different than what any of the other people that they probably have encountered will offer. And so there's a lot of beauty in there in finding that match.

Dr. Neff (59:45)

I keep finding parallel to autism, probably because it's pure reference point, but it's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that with giftedness, so with autism, there's often this experience of, like, I either answer with one word or two word answers, or like, I give you all the contacts and I say two words. So like, either say too little or too much. Now I think with a gifted, complex brain, it would be a very similar experience of I can either give you a two word example or I can let you in on my, my kaleidoscope. And so that's a really interesting kind of shared experience. The other thought I had, when you're talking, I feel like I've seen this tension pull out with folks in general, like people with complex minds. I think on one hand we like finding another complex soul, but then sometimes that can feel like too much. And then sometimes I think we gravitate toward partners who will like balance out our complexity, but then they can't see our complexity. So I often find like, and I feel like I did that in my dating of I would go between like finding someone who could match my complexity, but then it's a very like intense kind of heavy existential dynamic. Or I'd find someone who would, could balance out but then I'd get bored and it's like, yeah, there.

Sheldon Gay (60:56)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that is definitely the dance. And I think for me, finding someone again, regardless of whether or not they identify or recognize what might be going on with them or whatever, but finding someone who for me is curious and who honors and respects what's coming from within me is super, super important. Know I say if you don't understand something but you're curious about it, like that for me is like a big, big, big thing. Because none of us is going to know every single thing, right? There's always going to be something that you're like, oh, I don't. Tell me more about that. Like that's kind of a core thing about dating, right. Is like being curious about the other person. But finding people who again are willing to go beyond kind of the, that normal layer that most people say, like, I'm curious about your favorite color, I'm curious about your. And I don't mean to like, yeah.

Dr. Neff (61:56)

No, about your mind. And I think that's not to, not to tie the conversations too closely between therapy and dating, but uncomfortable. But also I think a good therapist is curious about your mind. And I think same thing in a, in a, in a partner. It's someone who is curious about your mind, curious about your experience. And curiosity like spans across iq. It spans across neur. Neurology. And so it's just that is to me, like if I were to look at kind of human characteristics and values I look for, curiosity is, is such a big one for me.

Sheldon Gay (62:33)

Yeah, no, that's. I, I love that you pointed out Again, that's something you don't need the same exact, like level of sparkles. Right. It's just across neurotypes and it doesn't have to come from the same angle, but just like so that genuine. I'm sorry, Curiosity is gold.

Dr. Neff (62:54)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, I think I. We talked before we started recording that we felt like sparkles of ideation. And I think it's partly. I could tell off the bat that you are very curious Cuban. And I can feel that in how you talk about ideas. And yeah, really, I really appreciate that.

Sheldon Gay (63:16)

Thank you.

Dr. Neff (63:19)

Well, where can folks find you if they're wanting to learn more from you? I know you do speaking and you've got a podcast, but. Yeah, where can folks find more of what you do?

Sheldon Gay (63:30)

Yeah, so the best place to go is my website, which is Sheldon Gay G a y is bugginbug n.com and there you can find my podcast where you can actually listen to it directly from the site or listen to it from your favorite podcast player. And then you can also learn about my speaking business so that I can come and speak to your job, to your university, to your elementary school or whatever about how we build community and honor to humanize, you know, what I call unconventional or unconventionally brilliant minds. And then you can also follow me on IG at. I must be bugging on ig and so, yeah, that's the best place to go. And please do reach out, you know, if you have a question, if you have a curiosity, definitely VM curiosity. I'm always down for more curiosity. So please do reach out.

Patrick Cassell (64:28)

Awesome. And all of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to everything that Sheldon just listed. Listed. Really great coverage. One more.

Sheldon Gay (64:37)

Sorry, one, one, one last thing. I would be remiss if I didn't say please do. I also have some merch there. Some. Some neuro inclusive merch and intersectional inclusive.

Patrick Cassell (64:47)

Merch on there too.

Sheldon Gay (64:48)

So please go check that. That out. So many ones. Sorry, Go ahead, Patrick.

Patrick Cassell (64:53)

Good to know. Good for everyone to know. And again, all those links and information will be in the show notes so you have easy access to it. Thanks for listening to Divergent Conversations, Sheldon. Thanks for being on this Giftedness series. It's been a great conversation, really enjoyed it a lot. To everyone listening. New episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms on YouTube and you can like download, subscribe and share.

Dr. Neff (65:19)

Foreign.

Patrick Cassell (65:23)

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.