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Divergent Conversations
Episode 80: Giftedness (Part 1): Defining Giftedness: Beyond High IQs [featuring Emily Kircher-Morris]
00:50:17
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
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B
And I'm Dr. Neff.
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A
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. Thanks for listening.
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C
Foreign.
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A
Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Megan and I are joined today by Emily Kircher Morris, lpc, is the host of the Neurodiversity podcast, which explores the psychological, educational, and social needs for enriching the lives of neurodivergent people. She is the author of several books for parents and educators related to the development of children and teens who are neurodivergent and cognitively gifted. She started her career in education and now works as a mental health counselor in private practice outside of St. Louis, Missouri. And she specializes in neurodivergent, twice exceptional and gifted people of all ages. Emily, thanks for being on here and starting us off with this series.
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C
Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.
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B
Yeah, yeah. So we are starting a new series on giftedness, and I can't think of a better guest to have us. To have to have us on. That's an interesting slip flip to have on our podcast to help us kind of define some of the language, get the lay of the land, because I seen giftedness talked about a lot and talked about, you know, is this a form of neurodivergence? There's a lot of questions around it. So I guess to start us off, can we just get some anchoring concepts on the table? Like, I'm curious, I've seen a few different definitions of gift, gift giftedness. Like, how do you define giftedness? Do you conceptualize this as a form of neurodivergence?
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C
So, well, I guess. Let me ask you this. So are intellectual disabilities a type of neurodivergence?
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B
I think so. I mean, yes, I think so in the sense of if we think about the bell curve and then if you're diverging from normative in a significant way, then yes, absolutely.
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C
Yeah. So if that's the case, then I would argue that cognitive giftedness is also a type of neurodivergence. It's just on the other end of that bell curve. And I think that. So I came from the education world, like Patrick mentioned in the intro, and I started out I was a classroom teacher, and then I taught in gifted ed programs and, and so when I entered the mental health field, that was kind of my background, where I came from. And even throughout the 20 plus years that I've been doing this, my understanding of giftedness really has evolved. And I think that there's a lot of different ways that things have shifted, just as part of the neurodiversity movement.
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B
Sure.
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C
So when we talk about giftedness, I think what most people think about is they think of an IQ test. Like, you know, you say you've got the Wechsler tests, you know, the scales, or the Stanford Binet, which is old and outdated, but it's around, you know, or there's some others that schools use. And primarily they think about education. They think about. Because it's an identification that is used in the school setting. However, it's not a clinical label.
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B
Right.
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C
In the way that, like, I would.
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B
Never diagnose someone with a, like, gift. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.
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C
I think, although you might recognize that as part of their profile, when I.
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B
Do an IQ test, I might say your IQ is in this range. Right, Absolutely.
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C
So what's interesting is there's not really an agreed upon cutoff score, if that's the only criteria that we're looking at. So depending on who you're talking to, some people would say the top 10% of ability in cognitive scores, some people would say top 5%, some people would say it's top two. And so that kind of varies from place to place, but there really is no agreed upon cut score specifically there. And for what it's worth, that's probably best because a score on one test is very difficult to really define what somebody's overall ability is. So that's one way to conceptualize this. It is also often associated with performance, so academic performance. But when you dig into that a little bit deeper, there are many people who are very intelligent, who are very bright, who don't perform academically very well. And so we, when we're trying to figure out what does this really mean, there are some certain strengths that we often see with people who kind of qualify under that cognitively gifted piece. And it has to do with problem solving, abstract reasoning, often language skills, as far as communication. And just like other types of neurodivergence, you can actually look from a neurobiological perspective and see differences in the brain. So, for example, brain volume literally is correlated with increased IQ scores. And so bigger brains, you know, it has to do with more ability in that area, but it's also complicated by external pieces. So there's a study that was released recently that talks about how they can actually predict IQ at age 18 by doing MRI studies at something like 6 months, 18 months and 3 years. They kind of did this.
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B
Oh my goodness.
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C
It's predictive and it has to do with the theta brainwaves. And specifically for theta brainwaves, the slower they are, they are associated with a higher cognitive score. And that has to do with your stress levels. Well, you know what one of the things is that increases the theta brain waves in your brain is trauma, for example. And so then, if so then. But that is also then correlated with reduced cognitive scores. So it's, you know, there is, it is neurobiological in origin in many ways, but is definitely impacted environmentally by environment. Yeah. And so it's kind of one of these both and situations that there's obviously.
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B
A genetic component, but also the environment will play in. It's really interesting. It's really interesting. Yeah. I appreciate you walking us through that. I think, I think my confusion has been so I come from, you know, the psychological tradition, so definitely have administered many IQ tests and I, I definitely, even though IQ test, I feel like it's important. Disclaimer IQ tests. Like we know that there are some, some bias around any, any of these tests, but especially there's a lot of groups that these don't capture intellect well. But I, that is the framework I'm coming from. So like I've, I've always thought like, okay, I've heard different cutoffs whether it's an IQ of 140 or 150, but, and, and so I'm, I'm not gifted, which is interesting because my kids are both gifted and my spouse is gifted, but I'm not.
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C
Let me throw out a statistic for what it's worth. Research shows that people tend to find partners who have an IQ score within about a 10 point range of their own.
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B
Well, I punched up then because my as fast as IQ is like I think 140, 145 and I've got 115 I'm working with but partly my working memory, my processing speed brings it all down. So yeah, I, I married up.
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A
My wife is going to love hearing this because I think my IQ test registered at like 148 when I did it. So she's going to really love that. And I would imagine that. And I've said this to Megan before, like if we're using cutoff as just iq, I always feel like I'm punching up above my weight with Megan on this podcast. So like, it's really interesting when we stop just using the IQ demarcation to determine that.
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C
Right? Yeah, yeah, I think.
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B
Oh, go ahead.
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C
Oh, I was just, I was just going to agree with and recognizing that. Like, here's something that's interesting. So how many IQ tests do people usually take in their lifetime? Maybe one, maybe a couple perhaps, if they're being assessed. Usually it's when they're in school, if you're looking for a specific learning disability or if you're looking for, you know, or if they go through a psych assessment of some type. But usually people, many people don't ever take an IQ test. What's interesting about those really high scores. So, Patrick, for what it's worth. So when I was tested in school, mine was probably right around that same range where yours is at that time. But you know how we talk about that Flynn effect, which is that regression towards the mean, which to many people out there who are listening, they're probably going, I have no idea what that is. That's okay. Here's the best way to explain it. Basically what they say is when you have somebody who tests in any particular area and they are an outlier, very, very high or very, very low, what you would expect if they are retested is that that score would regress towards the mean or the average. So it would come down. So it's kind of like saying when I went and took my IQ test when I was in second grade and I scored, you know, 147 or whatever it was, it's. It's like hitting a hole in one. The next time you would take that test, if you would take it again, it would be very unlikely that I would hit that hole in one again. And so my score would be closer to the mean. And so when we're talking about any of these scores, it's kind of this very vague, ambiguous thing in many ways. And the other thing I will say is that there are a million and one reasons why somebody does poorly on a test like this. And so you have to take all of it with a grain of salt. The gifted ed world, it's interesting, has evolved so much. So we talk about those inequities and those different groups that we have in different populations. Specifically, gifted ED really has been grappling with this. So I was actually diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid, before Asperger's was even added to the dsm. I was not never assessed for it, but I was also gifted. But the only reason I had either one of those things is because my mom advocated for me. She was a special education teacher and she knew. So back in that, you know, in the early 90s, when I was given that ADHD diagnosis, that was pretty, pretty rare. Yeah, but typically the way that you were identified for gifted ed services was that the teachers nominated you. They said, yep, this student, this student seems really smart. Who are they going to nominate? They're going to nominate the compliant, highly verbal kids who get all their work turned in on time. And usually kids who are, you know, part of, part of the. Not marginalized. Right. Like, so when you have those groups that are marginalized, we have that implicit bias. We have all of these different pieces that influence us as teachers. So what gifted ed did was they came up with the idea of universal screening, meaning that you don't just test the kids that the teachers say to test at several different grade levels, maybe first grade and third grade or whatever, you test everybody in the grade level looking for the opportunities to find those kids. And what ended up happening is, first of all, it did definitely increase the number of students from marginalized backgrounds who were identified. And in the process, although this wasn't the goal, it also increased the number of twice exceptional people that we were identifying. So twice exceptional is this term that refers to somebody who is both cognitively gifted and has another diagnosis layered on top of that, like autism, like adhd, like dyslexia, all of these other pieces there. And so all of a sudden you have these kids who are not necessarily the compliant academic achievers who are being identified. But you know, it's interesting, as adults, depending on what career you choose, depending, you know, you, you tend to find people with, with some level similar abilities. Right? Like, like depending on where, where you end up as far as your career goes. Just because different levels of ability offer opportunities to succeed in, in various areas. And so sometimes people don't always realize what a wide range there really can be in that overall ability.
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B
Absolutely, Absolutely. I love how you, how you broke that down and also that how I didn't realize that's how 2e became more commonly identified. I've been hearing more and more conversations around 2e. So one question and, and then, and then we can move on and. Because there's some other things I'm excited to ask you about, but I think some of my confusion has been, and I think mostly on social media, but I'm seeing the term of giftedness expand to be. It feels like more personality. Like if you're really curious, if you're existential And I think those are traits that often are common for those with very high IQs. But that's like, if I looked at, you know, a list of traits, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm gifted. I have these personality traits, but I don't have the same shared experience of I. I've worked with gifted clients. I know there's a different experience that I don't have. So I'm curious, especially because you are coming from education, what do you think of this? Are you seeing that too, this kind of more diffuse term being used around giftedness and what do you make of that? Because I, I. It's confusing me.
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C
So the I. So here's the thing. I'm going to say some things. I come from the gifted ed world and I might say some things that might be counter what some people think or believe and for what?
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B
Just as a blanket statement, like so much is evolving in our world right now that like, I'll record, I'll say something maybe that I said last year that I'm like, wow, I would say that so differently this year. So just, I think blanket statement to our listeners, like, we are evolving. The language we use is evolving. So, so absolutely.
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C
And we want to embrace that. And in the gifted ed world. The gifted ed world is a very small bubble. Actually, Megan, you were just on the podcast last week and we were kind of chatting about this a little bit and you're like, oh, yeah, we're have this guest. This guest. It's like I knew all of their names because it's just a small. I knew exactly who they were. And so it's just a small world. But sometimes what happens when you have that bubble is you get into a little bit of an echo chamber. And one of the ideas that really caught on in the gifted ed world is this idea about the theory of overexcitabilities. So this comes from, you know, dos.
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B
Guess not. Dos? Yes, with a D. And I can't pronounce it, but I just learned this.
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C
And I really like Dabrowski.
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B
Dabrowski. There we go. Yeah.
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C
And the theory of overexcitabilities specifically is actually the theory of positive disintegration and overexcitability. So without getting into the whole theory, one of the areas that is really caught on within the gifted ed world is this theory of overexcitability. So there are these five areas that they talk about where gifted individuals have increased sensitivity in these particular areas. So intellectual ability or curiosity, basically intellectual intensity, emotional intensity, imaginational intensity, psychomotor intensity. So like movement. And then the last one is, they call it. It's translated from Polish, it's called sensual, but it really means sensory intensity. So what, you know, and, and, and the reason. Well, so this has been used to explain some of those qualitative traits of giftedness. Like the existential piece that you're describing can come from kind of that intellectual curiosity piece. But the research is very, very mixed. So one thing that they do for sure know is that gifted individuals do tend to have mild to moderate increased sensory sensitivities. So hypersensitivity. And in my mind, that has to do with like, how your brain is wired, how you're interpreting information. But it should not be debilitating. It should not, you know, it's not something that's causing really, you know, distress. Like you would see with somebody who really has, you know, like a sensory processing.
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B
Like who's autistic.
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C
Yeah, yes, exactly. And, you know, it's interesting to figure out, like, why that caught on so much, because.
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B
Probably because it wasn't an iq and so it was like we could talk about the human and not just this number, which is also. So, like, I think even people who are gifted have a hard time talking about it because it's like, this is a weird thing to acknowledge about myself. Am I like, stroking my ego if I say I'm gifted? So it makes so much sense to me at caught on. It's like, oh, I can talk about how I'm overexcitable and the struggles that come with that without sounding like I'm complaining about having a high iq.
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C
Right, right, exactly. And I think in some ways it's also been used to justify advocacy for gifted ed services in the schools. Like, oh, they have to have this. But. But what I really have found is ultimately there's so much variability with anybody who has who is gifted. And you can't really find like, some people will check those boxes. But I also think for what it's worth, the gifted ed world has a history of being pretty ableist and a lot of those traits that I just mentioned, emotional intensity, sensory sensitivities, psychomotor intensity. Okay, well, what does that really sound like? Emotional regulation difficulties. Right. Sensory sensitivities, obviously, like with the hypo or the hypersensitivity. And hyperactivity is the psychomotor piece. Right. Like where I have to be in motion. Okay, so what is the possibility that somebody who has an outlying score on their overall ability might be an outlier in other areas as well? And so they might also be ADHD or be autistic. And what often has happened is that people have liked to explain those things away. Oh, no, no, no, no. They cannot be autistic. They're just gifted, quirky. Right. Those sensory sensitivities are part of their.
- [19:05]
B
Are part of their, part of their overexcited ability. Whereas, like, kind of like hsp, but for giftedness, it's like, let's repackage these traits. Yes, it's more palpable.
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C
Okay, absolutely. And for what it's worth, if you look at those five areas of overexcitability, they actually align quite well with the big five personality model.
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B
I noticed that I was. Because I love the big five. I used to do some big five research.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. And it's fascinating. I remember one time, this is really, this is actually probably the moment that my little gifted ed bubble got popped where I was like, no longer aware of how things were so insulated. I was doing a presentation to a group of psychologists about giftedness and I was talking about the overexcitabilities and somebody said, oh, well, that sounds like the big five personality model. I literally had not heard of it. And it's like. And then I go through and do research, I'm like, oh, I felt really embarrassed that this question was asked and I really didn't understand that. But when we talk about that ableist history, we talk about this overlap of twice exceptionality. One of the most fascinating statistics that I just, I can't. It's like, it's so impactful and I think we just don't realize it is that of individuals who are identified as autistic, they're one and a half times more likely than the general population also to have intelligence in the superior range, meaning that they're more likely to be against it. When you have, for example, a group of just people versus a group of people who are identified as gifted, you're going to have more autistic people in that gifted group. And I think that there's, gosh, there's a lot of overlap there. And people, you know, and I don't know, I often am so curious because when you look at some of the neurobiological traits of autism compared to giftedness, a lot of it is like, about that hyperconnectivity, the different ways that the brain is wired and there's a lot of similarities there. And I often think that sometimes the further you are outside of the norm. So when you, you know, like somebody who has an IQ of 125, 130 might be identified as gifted in the schools and they might be able to operate in the world. Pretty look pretty normal, I guess, for lack of a better way to phrase that, regardless of masking or whatever else that might be. But the further up you get, 135, 140, 150. There's a lot of overlap there. And I'm so curious to figure out as the science goes forward, is there really how much of a difference is there? Is it just about how it manifests and how it shows up in the world? Is it just about which traits come to the surface and how disabling some of those traits might be? But, you know, it's. It. It's really interesting to see how that, how that overlap really impacts people.
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B
That's so interesting. Yeah. And so I remember learning in my training because they were. And I was learning that when I learned this, it was in a comprehensive assessment classes of a. Kind of like a caution to not misdiagnose autism. The idea is that I remember learning is the more like if someone is gifted, if someone has a high iq, they tend to have more autistic traits, which we don't have good language for talking about that yet someone who like, has more autistic traits than the average person but is not. Doesn't meet full criteria of autism.
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C
Right.
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B
But that was really interesting to me too and also just kind of made sense, I think because I don't know how you feel about the term gifted. I think gifted is kind of an unfortunate name.
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C
100%.
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B
The struggles of like, I know when I've worked with folks who are gifted, and then if they're gifted and autistic, this is doubly. Gifted folks often have a hard time connecting socially with their peers. Perhaps not if they're in a gifted program, but they're often talking at a level that other folks aren't keeping up with. And it was always so interesting because I have worked with several clients and I'm smart enough that I could understand what they were saying, but I was working really hard to keep up with them and to be able to be the kind of therapist that could stay engaged at their level. And it was such an interesting. I do a lot of interpersonal work to kind of realize like, yeah, this person often has the experience of. I don't know if people talk about masking and giftedness, but if needing to like language down, bring down their language, bring down their concepts, bring down how fast their brain is working to be able to connect with Others or they're constantly feeling misunderstood because their brain is working so fast. And so it's been really interesting clinically to see the social struggles that come for a lot of gifted folks and how that even if the person's not also autistic, which I think a lot of them are, but even if they're not, if they're just gifted, there's still social struggles that come with that.
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A
Can I want to jump in on that too? Because some of the resources you sent us, I was reading through them and obviously a lot of them resonated and some of the statements of like, but if you're getting all your schoolwork done, if everything looks like it's, you know, straight A is coming naturally or easily, you really miss the behind the scenes struggles that are happening academically and socially and and emotionally. And I know for me, that was my experience for sure, because I could, I've told Megan this before, but I could get straight A's on everything I've ever done without much effort. And I didn't really put a lot of effort in, if I'm being honest. And because of that, a lot of things got missed because it was just like, Patrick, get straight A's and reads a lot and like, that's that. And there was never. What you just said, Megan, really stood out to me, the struggle to connect socially with my peer group, especially as I was like, getting bumped up into advanced reading and advanced education early on in my life. Like, it was really hard not to feel alone in that.
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C
So here's what I feel like. And you know, as with so many things, it's always both and. Right. It's hard to kind of go either way. I think that advocates for gifted individuals have actually done a disservice. It actually kind of comes back to the fact that the term gifted is just really an unfortunate term that we use because there is so much, I don't know, implication about what that really means as far as valuing somebody's contribution to society. But. And people have talked about how being gifted in and of itself is a deficit, and I have a really hard time accepting that. And you'll hear, I mean, I'll be interested to hear what the other guests that you have coming on say about this, because they may disagree with me, but the way I conceptualize it is that first of all, research really shows, first of all, that individuals who have high intelligence have better life outcomes overall. More money, more happiness, better relationships, all of these different things. And I actually think that viewing the difficulties that Sometimes gifted individuals face through the lens of the social model of disability makes more sense. So, for example, if I'm a student and again, just going back to the school situation and I am in a classroom with all of the peers who are my same age, and I have the language skills of somebody who is five or six years older than I am, it's going to be harder for me to find friendships, not because I struggle socially, but because I'm not in an environment where I have the opportunity to actually connect with people. And then there's this expectation. It's like, well, that person's so weird because they use this, you know, they use all those big words and, you know, and so, you know, so that's a big part of it. Or people talk about, oh, you know, so many gifted people are perfectionists, which, first of all, the research does not. Perfectionism is domain specific. And so we think about gifted individuals as being perfectionists related to academics because that is their strength. And so then they, they do tend to show that a little bit more. But anyone can be perfectionistic in a variety of different ways. But again, when we look at that through that social model of disability, we can think about the fact that, like, okay, well, are they perfectionists because they've never been challenged and they haven't been appropriately given opportunities to fail? And because if you always get things right and you're in and it's reinforced, oh, you're so smart and things come easily to you, whatever, then you don't know how to handle that. And so, you know, I feel like something gets missed and people are like, so when people want to advocate for gifted education services, and they're like, it's so hard to be gifted. It's like, it's so hard to be gifted if you don't have some supports. And it's kind of the reverse. It's not like there's something inherent about being gifted that makes things harder. I mean, I guess there are. Again, it's both. And like, for example, you mentioned, like.
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B
I like how you're nuancing it, though. It's about the context. And I think just having a blanket statement, it's so hard to be gifted. I can see a lot of people, myself included, maybe wanting to roll their eyes at that. Like, let's talk about privilege. Let's talk about this with more complexity. Like, there's also privilege that comes with being gifted. But you're absolutely right. I see this in, in family members. I see this in people I've worked with. And so I, like, I. I kind of love diving into this conversation because I kind of love that I'm not gifted. And I'll tell you why. It's because I. I was not like Patrick. I worked my ass off to get B's and to get occasional A's. And I, like, I played the hell out of the IQ cards that I was dealt to get into an Ivy League grad school, but I learned how to learn because I needed to, because I would probably have gotten seeds otherwise. Whereas I see, I've seen it in my children when they were younger. I've seen it in folks I work with. For those for whom school comes easy, the ability to grow, the distress tolerance of doing things that don't come easy is really hard. And so there. And I know you work with adults, like, the lot. Like, okay, launching into adult is not language I like. But the transition to adulthood when you hit the job market and it requires a ton of perseverance. And that's not something that you've learned to do because things have come easy for you all of a sudden. Like, job. Like, job security can be really hard. But it's like, wait, but I have an IQ of 145. How is this matching? This doesn't make sense.
- [30:03]
C
Right.
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B
So, yeah, this. I see the struggle, and for that reason, I'm actually glad I'm not gifted, which.
- [30:11]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
Well.
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C
And I think when you, you know, there's. There's just a lot to all of the different pieces. Like, there's so much about, like, do you. Do you know how to do school? Right. Like, and a lot of gifted people don't know how to do school, and.
- [30:31]
B
There'S a lot of love. Do know how to do school. Yeah.
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C
And, you know, in the DSM 4, it's not in the DSM 5, but in the DSM 4 for ADHD, one of the specific specifications there was that you couldn't diagnose ADHD in students if the academic setting wasn't challenging enough. And so, you know, and they've kind of taken that particular piece away. But, yeah, I mean, obviously, if somebody is unchallenged, then that might manifest as other types of behaviors in the classroom. And even now in the DSM 5 and the Autism piece, it talks about how social expectations, like, they may. Like, somebody may be able to manage socially until the expectations outpace their abilities. Well, so for somebody who's gifted, like, you know, they can usually mask pretty well. They pick up on that stuff pretty well. And then all of a sudden, what I end up finding is like, you know, a lot of times these are individuals who didn't necessarily have a language delay when they were young. And so it wasn't necessarily picked up on when they were toddlers. And so then they get to late elementary school or middle school or even adulthood and all of a sudden they're like, okay, something's not clicking here. It's not coming as easily to me as it does to other people. But all anyone ever saw was their overall cognitive ability as opposed to those other pieces that got hidden and got missed.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, like there's a skill deficit. I could imagine. I remember this also with one of my children. When my children started talking at seven months, was speaking in full sentences at 11 months, had 300 words when she was one. Like just ridiculous off the scales verbal ability. And I remember in my parenting of her, like because she was so bright, I would forget that emotionally she's like a two year old. So. So the tendency of like holding her to the standard of how she's talking and so a lot of that skill development I don't think I did a good job of like I've got to teach this. Like she's too around emotions or around skills of like doing school. And so I, I think and people. There's been some studies that people will often gauge someone's intellect by their verbal intellect because that's what's most forward facing to the world. And so I think for a lot of these folks there is that lack of recognition of like they, they still need fundamental skills to be taught to them because it's assumed. Well, because their IQ or the way they talk is 10 years older. There can be those kind of significant gaps that really don't set up people. Well. Yeah, yeah, well, I was it. Well you might have a thought on that. But I wanted to, I want to make sure and get time to talk about one thing you, you said before we started recording that really interested me was like adults and kind of realizing, I think education trauma is how you put it. So. And I wanted to make sure we had time to talk about that experience of perhaps like the lost generation of 2E people who are now realizing, oh wow, my experience of school or perhaps even work. This is part of why that was such a complex or stressful experience.
- [33:49]
C
Yeah, well. And kind of to bridge from the conversation that's more directly related with the gifted piece. Some people you've probably seen, well, it's around Halloween time now and there's always those memes about the different costumes about like, or somebody, what are you gonna be for Halloween to the gifted kiss? Well, I was supposed to be a lot of things, right like this not living up to their potential or the gifted kid burnout memes, all of these different pieces. And my very unscientific hypothesis about this is that most of the people who that resonates with are probably twice exceptional people who were never identified. And meaning that they did well academically, they coasted through, they did okay, but there was a lot of other struggle there that was going on. And so in my next book that's coming out in January, it's called Neurodiversity Affirming Schools. And it really is about a systemic change that we need to make in our educational systems for all neurodivergent people. Because going through school on a day to day basis, where you are having to mask, where you are constantly being reprimanded for things that are not a disciplinary issue, but part of being neurodivergent, where you are that square peg that is constantly trying to be forced into the round hole, has a lot of long term implications. And how does that manifest as people grow older? You know, it's like it manifests as I'm not even going to try, right? Like I can't because it brings up so much overwhelm. Or it's like the flip side where it's like, I'm gonna be an overachiever and a perfectionist. I'm gonna do all of the things to check all the boxes. Because it's almost hypervigilance as far as what that reaction is to that negative feedback. And I think that sometimes there's a definition for trauma. And I think that, you know, I don't want to take anything away from individuals who have experienced really intense, you know, direct trauma, but that low level chronic stress of having to be in an environment that does not meet your needs, then you get to an adulthood and maybe you were masking all of that time, or maybe you weren't, whatever it is. But the way that you then interact with the world around you, how do you act when you're in your job and you have certain expectations that are placed on you? Do you have an emotional reaction to that? Are you able to rise to that challenge? Do you have a pushback against it, whatever it might be? But we can see those types of, of reactions in so many different ways and I think that we underestimate that. And then it also influences people as far as, you know, how they, how they support their own children as they go through school. There's a lot of. I think we really underestimate the harm that our schools do to neurodivergent kids because it was terrible growing up. It sucked. I hated it. I mean it's part of why I've gone into the field that I have because I'm like, this has to be different. There's, there's, it just can't, can't keep going the way that it is. And I see those impacts in myself, you know, every day. If you, if you want to look for them.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah, can I, can I ask more about your personal experience of like, how do you see the kind of long lasting impacts and how it shows up in your life now?
- [37:22]
C
So I struggled a lot during school. I had, well, for so many reasons. I mean I look back and like I said, Asperger's wasn't in the DSM when I was a kid, but if it had been, we would have looked at it because I was also the kid who was like hiding in the back of the classroom crying for hours when things didn't go the way I expected them. Like there are a lot of those traits that I see in myself. And because so one of the things that I did though is when I got to college, for example, I graduated in three years. I took one semester where I took like 28 credit hours. I had another semester where I took 26. But it was like I had to prove it. I had to prove to people that I was self sufficient. I'm also very independent, which again can be a trauma response where it's like I am not going to ask people for help because when I was growing up and I asked for help, I was told that I should be able to do these things and if I wasn't doing them, I was lazy. And so now it's like I'm going to be, I'm going to kind of step that up. But the stress level that that causes on a day to day basis, there's a lot. And so I'm constantly trying to check those things, I'm trying to unlearn those things. But, and that's, and for what it's worth, people who do well academically, depending, you know, if they are gifted, you do have those expectations placed. And then if you don't live up to them, what does that mean about who you are? What does that mean about how you, how you show up in the world?
- [38:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. There's so much pressure.
- [38:55]
A
Can piggyback on all of that. And then you add in living In a capitalist society that rewards productivity and achievement. And it's like this constant internal battle to, like, continuously prove, prove, prove, and completely burn yourself out. So.
- [39:12]
C
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. The burnout is huge. And I think we talk about burnout so much and. Well, I know, Megan, Anna, this is your area of specialization, but I think one thing I would personally love to learn more about just is how many people are experiencing burnout and they are just pushing through because they just don't have really any other choice. Because I know I've been there at different times, and I think people always think burnout means that you totally shut down and you can't do anything. I feel like that's maybe a misunderstanding perhaps, of how that might show up.
- [39:56]
B
But, yeah, I think that's a great take. Devin Price just wrote an essay on his substack that I thought was really well done, kind of talking about how the capitalist is capitalistic system. We're in kind of places, all of us, like most of us in our relationship to work is a recipe for burnout, like neurotypical or neurodivergent. The. The way we've structured society, especially in this. In the States, is one that does not promote, like, wellness or thriving or balance or harmony or like. Yeah, so, absolutely. I think that a lot of people are in some state of burnout, pushing through. And I think what you're. What you've hit on, that I really like is when you've been identified as gifted, especially iq, but really, in many ways, then there's these expectations that come with that that I think cause someone to, like, well, I have to push through because there's so much expectation here.
- [41:01]
C
Well, that's just what you learn about yourself. Right. Like, and, And.
- [41:05]
B
And it gets tied to worse, I imagine, for a lot of us.
- [41:07]
C
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [41:08]
B
Performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you watching? Oh, go ahead.
- [41:13]
C
I was just gonna say I have a sticker on my laptop that says something like, you're more than your productivity. Right. But it's so hard to remember that.
- [41:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, especially when that's been reinforced throughout your life of, like, this is what makes you special. This is what. Yeah, absolutely. I. I struggle with that too. I'm very much. Productivity is very connected to my worth, and I'm. I'm working through that. I'm trying to work through that, but.
- [41:38]
C
Don'T know that going process.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah.
- [41:41]
C
Yeah.
- [41:43]
B
I'm curious if you have watched High Potential. It's one of my new. It's one of my new favorite shows. I watch it with One of my daughters who, who really identifies with the gifted label, and she talks about her. Her IQ is like 160, and it's high potential. But it does a good job of capturing, like, this is someone with a ridiculously high iq. But it does not mean her life is easy. It means that she obsesses. It means she can't sleep because she's obsessing about things. So I just, I, I, it's fun to see that it's out there. I like that they're captured and they're not using the language of giftedness, but they're captured. And she also is very adhd. They're capturing kind of the complexity that comes with high intellect.
- [42:25]
C
Yeah. And for what it's worth, I'll often use the terms gifted or high potential because sometimes. And so it's interesting that they caught onto that. I hesitate. I don't know. I, I tend to, like, I haven't watched it. I've seen the ads for it, and I'm.
- [42:39]
B
You might hate it.
- [42:40]
C
Yeah, well, it's like one of those things. I'm like, I feel like. But that's, that's with, I think, any show about neurodivergent characters. I tend to, like, get annoyed, but.
- [42:51]
B
I think you'd probably get annoyed by some aspects of it. It's like, it.
- [42:56]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:58]
B
But I kind of like, yes, I.
- [43:01]
C
Think it's helpful to bring awareness about various things to people, and I think that the media is the best way to do that. And if that helps to normalize various labels and diagnoses, I think overall, the, the, the benefit outweighs the drawback. But, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to approach those things because when you're writing a character well, that character cannot embody all of the. Whatever traits it is that you're trying to, trying to, you know, explore. But.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, that is well said. Well, I think we're about to wrap up. I've know. I know you have a meeting here shortly, but is there anything I haven't asked you that I. Sometimes I know I get itchy thoughts in the back of my brain when I'm on a podcast of like, oh, I really wanted to say this thing. Do you have any itchy thoughts of things you wanted to, to mention that we haven't talked about?
- [44:00]
C
I. Let me think. I guess maybe.
- [44:09]
B
I don't know.
- [44:10]
C
No, I mean, I feel like there is, but they're not coming to my conscious mind right now for me to be able to put them into words, I guess, maybe just to also recognize, like, giftedness. Oh, I know what it is that I want to say. Giftedness comes in a lot of different forms. And I will only just talk about the fact, like one of my little rants that I like to go on is when we talk about identity first versus person first language in the neurodiversity community, and people are saying, especially in the professional world, when you're talking to clinicians or educators or whoever who have been trained to use person first language, there's sometimes this pushback. And. No, no, no. They're a student with autism. They're a person with adhd. And what I always. The point I bring it back around to is, you know what? There's a group of students who we always use identity first language. And it's. When we're talking about gifted kids. Why is that? It's because language conveys our values. It tells you what we approve of and what is okay and what is not. And I think that the message that we send when we use identity first language for neurodivergent people who prefer that language for themselves. I mean, everyone can choose. But I think it's really important to put that into perspective when we really are talking about de. Pathologizing and destigmatizing those labels and recognizing like, yeah, you can be an autistic person and. And it's. And it's awesome and it's hard and it's both. And. And you can be gifted and. And it's awesome and it's hard and it's both and like, whatever that might be. And so, you know, just recognizing the value of all of those different pieces and not just the ones that society says are best.
- [45:52]
B
Mm. So interesting. I hadn't made that connection, but you're right. We've always used identity first for gifted because it's. Because it's a good thing. Seen as a good thing. That's. That's really interesting. I love that you help people make that connection when having that conversation.
- [46:07]
C
It's really cool. Yeah.
- [46:09]
A
Yeah. That's really powerful. It's a great, great last statement, because that is really powerful. It explains the nuance that we talk about a lot on here. And it's a really good. Yeah. Wow. What a good conversation.
- [46:23]
C
Yeah. I appreciate it.
- [46:27]
A
Do you have anything you want to share with the audience? It's that time to share your podcast or books or whatever else you've got going on.
- [46:34]
C
Sure. So you can check out the neurodiversity podcast and so we focus a lot on, especially for people who are raising neurodivergent kids. Like there's a lot that's relevant there. Although we talk about a lot of different topics throughout the lifespan. So if you love this one, you might like that one too. You could definitely check out. If you are anywhere associated educationally, check out our new book. Amanda Morin is my co author on the book that's coming out in January. Neurodiversity Affirming Transforming Practices. So all students feel accepted and supported. We're really excited about it. It's available for pre order now and then you can find me Emily Kircher Morris. Just search me up on any of the platforms. I do have a profile on Twitter, may it rest in peace, but I'm not active there. And so anyway, but. But find me wherever.
- [47:26]
A
That sounds great. And I'll include all of that in the show notes too. So everyone has easy access to everything that Emily just mentioned because lots of great resources and Megan and I have both been guests on your podcast. So check all of those episodes out. You have almost like 260 right now, don't you?
- [47:41]
C
I think so, Yep.
- [47:43]
A
It's really well done. I have 160 on my other and I'm like, damn, how do I keep this moving for.
- [47:52]
C
Luckily I've got a. I've got a partner who does all the production stuff. So, you know, that makes it a.
- [47:56]
A
Little bit for sure. And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms like Download, subscribe and Share. And we will see you next week.
- [48:16]
B
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's gonna be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights. Com Burnout Resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.