Divergent Conversations

Episode 82: Giftedness (Part 3): Deconstructing Giftedness: Life Beyond The Label
Release Date: November 29, 2024
Guests: Katy Higgins Lee (MFT)
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complexities and lived realities of “giftedness,” especially at the intersection with other neurodivergent identities like autism and ADHD. With guest Katy Higgins Lee—a multiply neurodivergent therapist, unschooling parent, clinical supervisor, and neurodiversity advocate—the hosts deconstruct what it actually means to be gifted, the challenges of the “gifted” label, masking behaviors, the concept of twice exceptionality (2E), and the emotional, existential, and social landscapes that many gifted individuals contend with throughout their lives.

The conversation aims to move beyond stereotypes and labels, exploring how language, diagnosis, identity discovery, and intersecting needs shape the experiences of gifted and twice-exceptional people.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Katy’s Origin Story: Personal and Professional Intersectionality

[01:39–06:05]

• Katy recounts being identified as gifted at 7, attending a special full-time gifted class, and later reflecting on this after becoming a parent and therapist.

• Her adult journey included being assessed as autistic and having ADHD—a realization prompted through her own family experiences and professional training.

• She noticed stark differences and overlaps between the gifted, autism, and ADHD communities, motivating her to explore and map these connections via her popular Venn diagram.

  “I do think of giftedness also as being a kind of neurodivergence.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [05:04]

2. The Giftedness vs. Neurodivergence Debate

[06:06–11:00]

• Dr. Neff expresses surprise at the skepticism about giftedness’ validity in neurodivergent-affirming spaces, where some claim it’s merely “undiagnosed autism or ADHD.”

• Katy details the heated debates, ableism accusations, and functioning label concerns around “gifted,” likening it to other problematic terminologies.

• The frustration of individuals who don't fit neatly into one box—e.g., those who are gifted but not autistic or ADHD—emerges as a recurring theme.

  “People seem to think that giftedness was a mislabel... and that's not true. It is separate.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [07:22]

3. Giftedness: Privilege or Trauma? The Pressures of the Label

[10:38–15:00]

• Hosts and guest discuss how being labeled “gifted” brings real privileges but also significant pressures, unrealistic expectations, and “gifted trauma.”

• The word “gifted” itself is critiqued, with no satisfactory replacement found, paralleling the inadequacy of “autism” and “ADHD.”

• Harmful messages—like “so much potential” or valuing people for their societal contributions—add to emotional burdens.

  “There's a massive nervous system response that happens in a lot of people when they hear the word gifted because of so much trauma that happens related to the word.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [14:39]

4. School, Work, and the “Performance Cliff”

[15:03–18:38]

• Many gifted people find school easy—until they hit a sudden “performance cliff,” where the lack of prior struggle leaves them unprepared when challenges finally arise.

• The disconnect between external achievement and internal struggle is a common source of shame and self-doubt.

  “I really don't know how to do school or do work or do any of the things that had been coming so naturally in the first place. Creates this shame spiral and then this really intense struggle with your sense of self.”
  —Patrick Casale [18:05]

5. Giftedness Identification: Harmful and Healing Paths

[18:39–21:15]

• Both being labeled and not being labeled as gifted can result in similar identity and societal challenges.
• Support and context—not just the label—determine whether a gifted identity is helpful or harmful.

6. The Experience of Masking: Giftedness Edition

[23:36–27:07]

• Gifted individuals often mask their abilities or needs: pretending not to know answers, using simpler language, avoiding appearing “too much.”

• Masking can look like hiding knowledge in some contexts, but pretending to be more capable than one is in others—meaning ongoing camouflage of true needs.

  “You're always masking your true competence in an environment... then therefore your needs.”
  —Dr. Neff [26:16]

• Gifted masking includes masking interest/boredom or need for intellectual or emotional stimulation.

7. Defining Giftedness Through Needs

[27:08–29:40]

• Katy reframes giftedness in terms of needs: for complexity, intellectual stimulation, meaningful questions, and rapid increase in knowledge.
• Asynchronous development means high ability in some areas and struggle in others, often misunderstood in school and work settings.

8. Attention Regulation and Misdiagnosis: Gifted vs. ADHD

[29:40–33:15]

• Gifted individuals are often misdiagnosed as ADHD when boredom causes attention difficulties, though both can certainly coexist.
• Classroom and workplace environments, designed for the majority, pose challenges for those with “spiky profiles.”

9. Community, Intersectionality, and Underrecognized Groups

[31:53–34:57]

• Safe community space is crucial, particularly for 2E (twice-exceptional) individuals, including those with physical disabilities and those from marginalized racial backgrounds.
• Resources highlighted:
  • Intergifted for 2E/gifted community and training.
  • Black and gifted spaces: “Our Wild Minds” and “I Must Be Buggin” podcast.

10. Overexcitabilities, Boredom, and Self-Care

[35:00–44:44]

• Overexcitabilities (from Dabrowski’s Theory of Positive Disintegration): increased sensitivity/intensity in five areas—intellectual, imaginational, psychomotor, sensual, emotional (sometimes existential as a sixth).

• Once thought exclusive to gifted people, Katy suggests overexcitabilities span all neurodivergence.

• Viewing overexcitabilities as “needs”—and even as “pets that need to be fed”—helps with self-care, especially for highly sensitive individuals.

  “We have needs for input in those areas if we have an overexcitability... in the same way that, like, with sensory needs for being autistic, we have to avoid certain sensory input, but we also really need certain sensory input.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [41:12]

11. The Positive Disintegration Framework for Identity Discovery

[44:45–48:03]

• Major identity discoveries (autism, ADHD, giftedness, queerness, etc.) can spark a “positive disintegration” process—uncomfortable but growth-filled periods of breaking down and reintegrating self-understandings.

• Katy recommends this theory as a crucial framework for late-in-life neurodivergent identity development.

• The hero’s journey as another useful metaphor for this transition, with identity “disintegration” paving the way for integration.

  “I often talk about how...once you have this identity discovery...all identities are back on the table for exploration...to integrate, we have to disintegrate.”
  —Dr. Neff [46:10]

12. Concluding Thoughts & Resources

[48:03–end]

• Katy shares resources and offerings, including her website (katyhigginslee.com) and an upcoming group for neurodivergent therapists using authentic movement.
• Acknowledgement of how theory-rich, creative therapy can be especially supportive for gifted and ND clients.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Giftedness as Neurodivergence

  “I do think of giftedness also as being a kind of neurodivergence.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [05:04]

• On Gifted Masking

  “Pretending to not know the answer, even sometimes when they do know the answer. Using smaller words than what they actually would want to use, because they don't want people to perceive them to be a certain way and they just want to fit in.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [24:49]

• On Trauma and The Gifted Label

  “There's a massive nervous system response that happens in a lot of people when they hear the word gifted because of so much trauma that happens related to the word.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [14:39]

• On Overexcitabilities and Self-care

  “I love that idea of, like, these overexcitabilities as these, like, cute little pets that we feed and we nurture and we care for, and that's how we care for ourselves.”
  —Dr. Neff [44:17]

• On Positive Disintegration for Identity Discovery

  “That process of learning that new information about themselves will catapult them into this process that, in the end, ends up to be—most of the time—very positive. But there's this really intense process that they'll go through in order to get there, of just struggling with who they are and what their identity is.”
  —Katy Higgins Lee [44:44]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Katy’s Story, Gifted Identification: [01:39–06:05]
• Debates about “Gifted” Label & Ableism: [06:06–11:00]
• Giftedness: Privilege, Pressure, Trauma: [10:38–15:00]
• The “Performance Cliff” and School Struggles: [15:03–18:38]
• Gifted/ND Masking: [23:36–27:07]
• Giftedness as Needs/Profiles: [27:08–29:40]
• Misdiagnosis: ADHD and Giftedness: [29:40–33:15]
• Finding and Creating Safe Community: [31:53–34:57]
• Overexcitabilities Explained & Self-care: [35:00–44:44]
• Identity, Positive Disintegration & Reintegration: [44:45–48:03]
• Resource Round-up: [48:03–end]

Resources and Further Reading

• Katy Higgins Lee’s website: katyhigginslee.com
• InterGifted: Organization for gifted/2E adults
• Our Wild Minds: Black and gifted community
• I Must Be Buggin’ podcast: Black and gifted/neurodivergent perspectives
• Paula Prober’s “Rainforest Mind”: Alternative metaphor for giftedness
• Theory of Positive Disintegration: Framework for existential and identity transitions

This episode is a rich resource for therapists, neurodivergent individuals, parents, and anyone seeking nuanced approaches to giftedness and twice exceptionality, embracing the full complexity of these lived experiences.