Episode 83: Giftedness (Part 4): Parenting 2e Kids: High Standards and Emotional Needs [featuring Dr. Danika Maddocks]

Summary

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Detailed Summary: Divergent Conversations Ep. 83

Title: Giftedness (Part 4): Parenting 2e Kids: High Standards and Emotional Needs
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff (C), Patrick Casale (A)
Guest: Dr. Danika Maddocks (B)
Release Date: December 6, 2024

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, hosts Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale sit down with Dr. Danika Maddocks, a gifted/2e (twice exceptional) parent coach and owner of the Gifted Learning Lab. The discussion dives into parenting twice-exceptional (2e) children—those who are both gifted and neurodivergent (for instance, autistic, ADHD, dyslexic, etc.). The conversation explores the subjective experience of 2e individuals, common misunderstandings, internalized shame dynamics, challenges around fixed/growth mindset, and practical strategies for supporting 2e kids’ emotional and practical needs. Dr. Maddocks shares her personal journey as a late-identified autistic, her work, and her framework for affirming, validating, and connecting with emotionally intense 2e children.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Dr. Maddocks’ Personal Context and Path to 2e Advocacy

• Early Identification & Family Dynamics

  • Dr. Maddocks was identified as gifted at age 7 due to boredom in school, with “giftedness” becoming a family identity.
    • [02:26] Quote: “My mom would often say, like, well, that's because you're gifted, right?” (B)
  • Importance of acknowledging both useful and problematic aspects of “giftedness” as family narrative, including elitism and ableism.
    • [03:05] Quote: “The problematic parts are, like, everyone else is dumb, so, like, life is really hard that, you know, like, we're smarter than everyone.” (B)

• Misattribution of Challenges

  • Many of Dr. Maddocks’ autistic traits were reframed by her family as giftedness, not realized as neurodivergence.
    • [04:27] Quote: “A lot of the autistic experiences I had were attributed to giftedness by my mom. Like, misattributed to giftedness.” (B)

• Professional Trajectory

  • Fascination with how educational settings can or cannot “fit” different brains; led to doctoral work and a focus on twice exceptionality.
    • [05:41-09:04]
  • Only recently realized she was 2e herself, deepening empathy for clients.

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2. Defining Twice Exceptionality (2e)

• Definition and Nuance
  • Twice exceptional = "gifted" (as an exception to the norm) plus another form of neurodivergence or disability (e.g., autism, ADHD, dyslexia, processing differences).
    • [09:25] Quote: “Being 2e is being twice exceptional, with exceptional being an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing.” (B)
  • Emphasis on diversity, not hierarchy or superiority.

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3. The Internal World of 2e Kids: Confusion, Standards, and Shame

• Asynchronous Strengths and Struggles

  • "Hard things are easy, easy things are hard" describes the core 2e experience.
    • [11:12] Quote: “When you're gifted, things that people think are ... hard can come very easily ... But then things that would seem like they would be easy tend to be really hard.” (B)
  • Practical examples: Quick grasp of complex topics, alongside struggles with basic tasks (tooth brushing, social situations, executive function, etc.)

• Confusion—Internal and External

  • Both adults and kids may be perplexed: “Why are you so good at X, but can’t do Y?”
    • [13:02] “If you're an adult who's 2e, it might be confusing for the people around you ... But it's also so confusing internally.” (B)

• The Shame Spiral and ‘Good Person’ Standards

  • Internal self-doubt and feelings of deficiency arise when talent in some areas is offset by struggles in others.
    • [14:04] Quote: “Maybe I'm a horrible person or there's something really wrong with me because all these things that are things that good people do … I can't do those things, and I don't know why.” (B)
  • Leads to perfectionism, obsessive “I’m not good” stories, and sometimes scrupulosity OCD tendencies.
    • [14:40] Quote: “That feels like a recipe for that sort of obsessive story ... because the expectation is I should be able to be good at this because I'm good at these other things.” (C/Megan)

• Perceiving Ideal Standards

  • Gifted kids recognize “the perfect outcome” faster and more vividly than peers, increasing self-criticism.
    • [15:36] Quote: “Gifted kids perceive the expectations and can cognitively understand the right or ideal way to do things at a higher level of complexity than their peers ... Internally, I think they're experiencing an inability to meet standards way more often than other kids.” (B)

• Fitting In and Masking

  • The need to “filter” and “mask” to fit social environments is exhausting and breeds more self-doubt.
    • [33:13] “Having to have a very strong filter to feel successful in situations where it's like, I have 1 million things I want to say at all times, and many of them are not welcome here...” (B)

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4. Fixed Mindset, Growth Mindset, and The Experience of Mistakes

• Giftedness and Mindset

  • While one might expect the “gifted” label to create a fixed mindset, research is inconclusive; many gifted/2e individuals strive for growth but feel deep distress over errors.
    • [17:49] “You’d think they'd be more fixed mindset ... but it doesn't actually work that way.” (B)
    • [18:50] “Most of the kids I know are like, no, they're not [mistakes]. I hate them. They are not my friend. They are horrible. They feel awful. And I don't actually need to make mistakes to learn.” (B)

• Reconciling Mistake Anxiety with Growth

  • Not loving mistakes is not the same as a fixed mindset—one can despise errors but still persist and learn.
    • [21:26] Quote: “You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset.” (B)
    • [21:56] “Like, those grip my nervous system in a way that is, like, very unique.” (C/Megan)

• Societal Messages About Effort and Process

  • Over-enthusiasm for praising process over result sometimes fails to soothe gifted/2e kids, who are already hyper-aware of their own fallibility.
    • [30:54] “They're shaming themselves about doing not a good enough job, even without the parents doing anything.” (B)

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5. The Dangers of Traumatic Invalidation

• Chronic Invalidation

  • Ongoing, low-level invalidation (especially of emotional/sensory experience) can be traumatizing to identity—leading to self-doubt, loss of self-trust, and emotional suppression.
    • [27:46] Quote: “One of the most validating things you can say to your child is, like, ‘What you're feeling makes sense.’” (C)
    • [28:45] Quote: “It erodes self knowledge and self trust because … for a kid to say like, I need help, they need to be able to be like, this is awful.” (B)

• Validation as Practical Parenting

  • Instead of minimizing distress (“it’s not so bad”), simply acknowledge reality (“Yeah, mistakes suck. That’s awful.”).
    • [26:22] “If you can just say you don't. Yeah, mistakes. Ugh … the kid will actually be able to get through that feeling.” (B)

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6. Words, Labels, and the Pushback Around ‘Gifted’ and ‘2e’

• ‘Exceptional’ Language and Societal Discomfort

  • The term “exceptional” is statistically descriptive, not evaluative, but is often misread as elitist or ableist.
    • [09:25] “With exceptional being an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing … some people are like, I like it. I'll be twice exceptional. That sounds great. I'm just incredible.” (B)

• Mixed Public Reactions

  • Both “gifted” and “twice exceptional” provoke unease, misunderstandings, and sometimes outright rejection by parents and professionals.
    • [37:18] “I feel like most of the pushback I’ve gotten has been around the giftedness piece ... and a lot of adults have just never considered that they might be gifted.” (B)

• Confirmation Bias in Diagnoses

  • Professionals may see kids through a single lens (trauma, giftedness, etc.), missing layered identities.
    • [44:33] “And so there's all of this overshadowing that happens when we have these complex identities coming together and whatever is our home framework. I think it's so helpful to be aware we're prone to confirmation bias.” (C)

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7. Practical Parenting Frameworks for 2e/Intense Kids [48:07–59:06]

Dr. Maddocks’ Four Pillars:

[48:07–49:47]

1. Understanding Giftedness/2e and its Manifestations

   • Many traits are not “behavior problems” but normal results of brain wiring (e.g., sensitivity to transitions, interest-driven focus).

2. Validation of Intensity

   • Don’t try to “teach” in the heat of the moment; validate the child’s (sometimes cognitive) distress.
   • Many 2e/intense kids reject traditional emotion coaching focused on labeling feelings.
     • [54:29] Useful phrase: “You were not expecting that.”
     • [54:53] “Oh, that is not what you had in mind.”
     • [55:18] “Who designed hairbrushes?” – Blame the object, not the child, to help externalize frustration.

3. Leveraging Autonomy and Interests

   • Autonomy and deep interests are both strengths and regulating for 2e kids—build them into routines and transitions.

4. Supporting Challenges by Embracing Neurodiversity

   • Make things easier rather than holding rigid expectations; focus on “fit”—structure, flexibility, accommodations, leaving early when needed, etc.

• [56:43] Quote: “The more autonomy and ... their interests are there, the better they feel usually. And then supporting challenges by embracing neurodiversity.” (B)

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8. Key Memorable Quotes

• [03:42] “Your kid's not better than other kids. They're just different.” (B)
• [13:02] “Why are you such an incredible therapist, but you can't keep up with your progress notes?” (B)
• [21:26] “You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset.” (B)
• [26:48] “What you're feeling makes sense.” (C)
• [54:29] “You were not expecting that.” (B)
• [55:18] “Who designed hairbrushes?” (B)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Dr. Maddocks’ 2e/Family Backstory: [01:42] – [09:04]
• Defining 2e: [09:25] – [10:30]
• Subjective 2e Experience/Confusion: [11:12] – [16:19]
• Shame, Standards, and Fixed/Growth Mindset: [16:19] – [23:03]
• Traumatic Invalidation & Validation Practices: [26:22] – [28:45]
• Pillar Framework/Parenting Practices: [48:07] – [59:06]
• Practical Validating Phrases: [54:29], [55:18]
• Concluding Resources and Contact Info: [60:55] – [62:33]

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TAKEAWAYS FOR LISTENERS

• The lived experience of 2e kids/adults is often one of internal confusion, shame, and feeling out of sync—extraordinary abilities side by side with practical and/or emotional struggles.
• Validation—meeting kids (and yourself) where they are emotionally and practically—is more effective than pushing “resilience,” “growth mindset,” or “emotional labeling” in rigid ways.
• Words matter, both in clinical language and in parenting. Recognize “exceptionality” as statistical not moral or hierarchical.
• Supporting 2e kids means accommodating their unique mix of needs and strengths, not expecting “consistency” with neurotypical or even typically gifted peers.

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RESOURCE LINKS

• Gifted Learning Lab: giftedlearninglab.com
• 5-Day Mini Course – Reducing Power Struggles: giftedlearninglab.com/power
• Gifted Learning Lab on Instagram/Facebook: @giftedlearninglab
• Pay What You Can Spots for Support Program: giftedlearninglab.com/kid
• Neurodivergent Insights Burnout Resources: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources

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For more practical validating phrases and printable guides, look for resources in the show notes or contact Dr. Maddocks and Dr. Neff directly.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.

[B]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[A]

And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. Thanks for listening.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today we have Dr. Danica Maddox, who is a gifted 2e parent coach and owner of the Gifted Learning Lab. She they are also a sponsor of this giftedness series, which is amazing. She helps parents let go of standard parenting pressures and build a unique family life that actually works for their kid and themselves. She has supported gifted and twice exceptional kids, teens and their families for almost over 15 years as a teacher, therapist, school consultant, assessment provider, and coach. Her work is also informed by her professional experiences growing up gifted, being a late identified autistic adult, and raising a young gifted, twice exceptional kid. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[C]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I've been learning a lot from this series. So excited to dive in. So the way we've been kind of starting each of these conversations is just by hearing how you enter this conversation. What's your context for this conversation? Kind of how do you get interested in supporting 2e humans?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think for me, my conceptualization of what twice exceptionality is and just where I come from to this topic has changed a lot over time. So I was actually identified, like I was tested when I was 7 because I was really bored in school and was identified as gifted at that time. And so, and my, my mom shared that information with me and then it became actually like a big part of the family conversation when I was growing up with me and my mom and my brother mostly, and that had pros and cons, but it was like a big piece then of my identity and my framework for understanding my experience. My mom would often say, like, well, that's because you're gifted, right?

[C]

Or and was your brother gifted?

[B]

Brother's probably also gifted, but he was the type of kid who refused to answer the easy questions and so didn't earn a high score. And then the psychologist asked him the hard questions and he got them right. So I actually don't know, but in.

[C]

Family dynamics it was like, were all gifted. Okay, Well, I was curious because you were like it became part of the family conversation. So I was curious if it was like, Danika's gifted, and therefore.

[B]

Oh, no, no. It was more like, we're gifted. I mean, the problematic parts are, like, everyone else is dumb, so, like, life is really hard that, you know, like, we're smarter than everyone.

[C]

And I think even there's some, like, elitism.

[B]

Totally, totally.

[C]

First of all, like, thanks for acknowledging. I feel like that would be a hard thing to. To admit that that's.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it comes up so much in the giftedness space. I think, like, concerns about that. And I think it's really important to me to talk about giftedness as being just like, a different, useful. Like, it's useful information. And I work with a lot of families and parents and kids. Right. So it's like, it's useful to know that about your kid because your kid's brain does work differently, and your parenting experience feels different for a reason. Your kid's not better than other kids. They're just different.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And I think even when I was a kid and growing up, like, I never liked that talk. You know, I was always sort of like, I don't know. Also, I think, right. Fast forward however many years, like, at 39, I was like, hey, I think I'm autistic. But as a kid, I was like, well, I'm not better at everything. Or, like, no, I'm not. That's not true. Like, that's not accurate. But at the same time, a lot of the pieces did resonate with me where it's like, well, I do learn faster than my classmates. I'm ready to move along. Like, I understand things that other kids don't seem to understand. But I do think also that a lot of the autistic experiences I had were attributed to giftedness by my mom. Like, misattributed to giftedness. Right.

[C]

And I bet that would be a common defense of, like, if there's a difference, let's attribute it to this positive.

[B]

So common.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And I think that's where the ableism and elitism comes in of, like, that's not a disability.

[D]

Right.

[B]

It's, I guess, to, like, it's part of your amazing brain.

[A]

Well, it almost. You've talked about this, but it almost makes me feel like the HSP conversation around autism and how we often. Well, not we. How a lot of people in society often say, like, I'm just highly sensitive because they don't want to potentially acknowledge the autistic lens or. Or diagnoses.

[B]

Totally. Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's one of the reasons that it's so hard to identify twice exceptionality is because there is a lot of talk around gifts, gifted people, a lot of overlap and the gifted profile and the HSP profile.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And the gifted kids are highly sensitive and emotionally intense and. But I think, I don't know that there's actually research to back that up.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But that it's. I think a lot of times that's probably contributed to or that's probably related to other forms of neurodivergence that are being pushed aside or that people are unaware of. You know, I don't think it, I don't think it would have ever crossed my parents awareness to even consider that about me as a child.

[D]

Right.

[B]

That just wasn't in the societal awareness at that time. But yeah, it's interesting because my kind of lived experience is very much like interested in giftedness, interested in understanding that about myself. I was like a highly compliant kind of stereotype of a gifted kid where I went to school and I was like, great, I'm just going to get 100% and all the extra credit. Like I will. I can do that. That sounds fun. Whereas my brother was like, screw this, this is bullshit. Why would I do that? So I was also very interested in like, wow, we're both so smart and this is so different for the two of us. And I became really interested in just like how different settings are or are not a fit for different people. And then I guess my dad told me that like when I was 15, I was like, I'm going to grow up and be a teacher for gifted kids. And that I was like, even as a kid, I would say like a lifelong special interest is kids. Like, as a kid I was fascinated by other kids. I just find kids fascinating and kind of how their brains develop. So I think I was always interested in other gifted kids and kids with special talents. And then when I went into education, I was really drawn to kids who seemed very bright but really struggled in school and didn't like to be there or had big emotional meltdowns or would just like cry and get overwhelmed. And when I was in education I was just. These were the kids that I just adored and thought were great and wanted to connect with and figure out how to make the environment work for them and was really passionate about that. And then I decided to go into school psychology for my doctoral training. And in the first year we had a class on educational disabilities in the school and we each did like a presentation on Like a form of like, you know, one of the educational disability categories. Plus there was one on twice exceptionality. And I don't know if that's the first time I came across the term, but that's when I did like a deep dive on, like, what is twice exceptionality? And I wrote a paper for it and we had to propose a research study. And I ended up actually doing that research study. And like, my study was all about, like, how, like, the debate around identification criteria for how you can tell if someone is gifted with a learning disability. So then I got really into like, the whole concept of like, missed identification and how often these kids are missed, and that was in 2013 or 2014. So since then I've been just like, fascinated by twice exceptionality. I always asked to work with the gifted kids at all of my sites, like, during training. So I got mostly, I would say twice exceptional kids who were there for therapy or assessment. And then when I eventually finished my training and opened my private practice, my private practice is focused on gifted and twice exceptional kids and families. And then I created the gifted learning Lab to work with parents of emotionally intense gifted TUI kids. Yeah. And then two years ago, it's a special interest and it's developed over time. Yeah. And then of course, it's hilarious that only like, only two years ago was I like, wait a second, could I be twice exceptional? Is that why this is so interesting? And as these kids have always made complete sense to me, maybe, like, that's amazing.

[A]

And I also have some envy. I'm always, like, envious of people who have known exactly what they've wanted to do for most of their lives or have been like, really clear on, on that interest. But can you deep dive the 2e component here for our listeners and, and really share what that means and, and yeah, give some context to that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think at the most, just kind of definitional level, not everyone agrees entirely. But being 2e is being twice exceptional, with exceptional being an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing. Although some people are like, I like it. I'll be twice exceptional. That sounds great. I'm just incredible. So it's gifted. So it's that difference from the norm plus having. I used to say, like a disability, you could say another form of neurodivergence.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And another form of being different than typical or the middle of the bell curve. So most, I think probably the most common twice exceptionalities are folks who are gifted and autistic, gifted with adhd, gifted and dyslexic or Some other learning disability. Some folks might be gifted with sensory processing differences but not meet the criteria.

[D]

Right.

[B]

For something else. And I think that's where my experience is within that realm. It could also be gifted in deaf.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But I think those kind of neurodivergent characteristics we're thinking of, and I think that's definitionally what it is. I'm sure my mind is going in a million directions, but I think maybe it'd be helpful to say some of just the key thoughts that come to mind. If I think about what is it like to be a twice exceptional person or kid or teen. And I work with so many TUI kids and teens and their families, and I think a big thing is like, it's. Well, I often say, like, hard things are easy and easy things are hard and talk about the confusion, like all the different forms of confusion that arise from that.

[D]

Right?

[B]

So when you're gifted, things that people think are like way too hard for you or that other kids think are hard and they can't do or even as an adult that seem complex can come very easily and feel fun or interesting or natural or effortless even. And you have kids who. My kid watched one number blocks video on multiplication and then he was applying it to everything around the house. Sitting at dinner and he's like, wow, he was three and he's like, five times four is 20. I was like, sorry, what? He's like, well, look at the window. It's like five by four and there's 20. Like, yeah, that's true. Great. Right. And he's not doing it to show off. He's not even aware that it's like hard for someone else. He's just like, that's what I'm thinking about.

[D]

Right?

[B]

And I think a lot of times it can be shocking to others where it's like, wow, you're so capable.

[D]

Right?

[B]

But then things that would seem like they would be easy tend to be really hard. So like, families I work with brushing teeth. So, so, so, so hard, right. I've had so many conversations about kids who like take a shower and they say they shampoo their hair, but their hair clearly isn't clean. And what is happening in the shower, right? Like, what are the different things getting in the way? That's, you know, that's hard. Or like, for me, right? Like any new social situation is so anxiety provoking at this level that is like beyond like what other people experience. You know, work to other people. It's just like no big deal, small. You know, we do Some small talk we play. I don't know how that works, and I think so that's confusing.

[D]

Right?

[B]

But it's like, it's confusing for the adults around a child or a teen.

[D]

Right.

[B]

If you're an adult who's tui, it might be confusing for the people around you, like your partners or your boss or your boss who's like, why are you such an incredible therapist, but you can't keep up with your progress notes. Right. Or, why are you so good at this? But you're not. You hate making phone calls. Like, you're behind in your phone calls. Right. But you have the most amazing spreadsheet that you've put together for us. But it's also so confusing internally. And I think that's something I hear from kids a lot, where a lot of 2e people, like, start to basically, like, worry, like, maybe I'm a horrible person or there's something really wrong with me because all these things that are things that good people do, like brush their teeth and apparently say thank you and whatever they are, I can't do those things, and I don't know why. And then it can be really confusing where it's like, the adults are kind of like, you're so smart. Why can't you do this? But the kid, too, is kind of like, I'm so smart and capable. Why can't I do this? I'm probably awful is often the conclusion that people come to.

[C]

So that's so interesting. I'm going to, like, tie some ideas together. So we just did a OCD series, and we talked about, like, obsessive stories and how they can develop because of neurodivergent traits. And that, to me, feels like an equation for an obsessive story. And I anecdotally see a lot of kind of, like, moral scrupulosity, OCD in autistic kids and humans of like, I'm not good. And that feels like a recipe for that sort of obsessive story to absolutely take root of I'm not good because the expectation is I should be able to be good at this because I'm good at these other things. That's really interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I listened to that series recently, and I was like, this is very familiar to me and to my clients. Yeah. And I think there's something that happens with 2e kids too, where, like, I don't. You can tell me if this makes sense. Like, I don't have, like, proof of this, but this is my sense from in talking with their parents and things in my program is like, I think that there's something that happens where gifted kids perceive the expectations and can cognitively understand the right or ideal way to do things at a higher level of complexity than their peers or at a younger age than their peers. And they can kind of conceptualize the perfect outcome. Kind of like, this is the best way to do it. Clearly, I've analyzed all 15 ways I can think of, and this is it. So there's. Internally, I think they're experiencing an inability to meet standards way more often than other kids.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So on the one hand, they're meeting lots of standards that other kids can't meet, but they're also even aware of like. Which is why, you see, I think gifted kids beating themselves up of like, well, maybe I'm a, you know, Maybe I'm a 5 year old who can do multiplication. But I got that question wrong. And that is horrible.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And everyone else is like, you're a five year old who could do multiplication. We're good, you know, but the kid is like, well, no, because there is a correct answer. I can conceptualize it. I can tell you what it is.

[A]

Now.

[B]

I should have gotten that, you know, like. Or I remember as a kid even just wanting to draw something that I can envision in my mind and there was no way I could make it look like that. And it was so distressing because I had something so specific in mind that I wanted to do or create, if that makes sense.

[A]

It definitely makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that feels like being really misunderstood when I can't communicate that to the world or I can't show that to the world. So it's like, how come I can envision this so vividly but I can't actually accurately portray this to the people I that are asking me for it? Which is. You're kind of describing a lot of my childhood.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think that creates that, like that, that almost internalized like that shame spiral, that harsh criticism. Especially when your peer, your educators, your teachers, your parents, your relatives are like, you're so smart. Look at your, look at your report cards. You're so smart. You start to really have that experience where everything creates that good versus bad depending on performance. And if it's not performance driven and I'm not successful at this, then I'm clearly a bad human being.

[B]

So sorry. I just got really excited.

[C]

I realized I don't think we've talked about growth mindset versus, oh my gosh, explaining on it.

[B]

Fix mindset, fixed mindset.

[C]

And I think that would Be a great segue, Patrick, because there's. There is so much focus on achievement, not process, which is something that feeds fixed mindset. I'm imagining this is something you talk about a bit. Can you unpack, like, growth mindset and fixed mindset and how the like. Would you agree with my theory that gifted kids and 2e kids are more prone to a fixed mindset?

[B]

I don't know, actually. That's a good question. But I did do my master's thesis on the growth mindset. Well, there we go. Yes. And you know the joke about, like, research is me search right. Where it's sort of like I'm like, well, I need to like. The growth mindset was fascinating to me when I was a teacher and as a grad student when I did my master's program, but partly because it's like, I am so distressed by my own mistakes that I was like, I need to look into this. I would like to have a better growth mindset. So my thoughts about it have changed over time. And I know there is some research actually, too, on whether kids identified as gifted are more likely to have a growth or fixed mindset. And I'm not good at remembering specific details of things, but I'm pretty sure it was. You'd think they'd be more fixed mindset because they have this label of giftedness, but it doesn't actually work that way. That's great if that's.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think it'd be really important.

[C]

To have a growth mindset when you're gifted.

[B]

Yeah. Well. And what I've noticed in my program, we spend a whole week talking about the idea of, like, resilience and how do you build resilient resilience? And what I talk with parents about, like, is. And this comes from my own experience, but then from working with people, too. I think the growth mindset gets mischaracterized. I think it gets packaged poorly or in just the way that it's described that parents and teachers, the adults get anxious about their kid. How do I say this? There's so much emphasis on mistakes are our friends. Mistakes are great. They are how we learn. And most of the kids I know are like, no, they're not. I hate them. They are not my friend. They are horrible. They feel awful. And I don't actually need to make mistakes to learn. So, no, thanks. Like, I'm good. So I feel like that marketing really does a disservice to the growth mindset, because I feel like those kids could totally have a growth mindset And I help parents notice where their kids are showing components of a growth mindset, like using strategies, asking for help, persisting when things are tough. You know, like. Like, growth mindset is really just the belief that you can, like, grow your ability.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Or your skills in a certain area. But those are a lot of behaviors that people with a growth mindset tend to do and in their area of interest. And when they feel confident, gifted kids usually do do that stuff. And tuee kids do do that stuff. Right. They persist on their Lego set that's really hard or that fell over or whatever. It's often more around, like, things that they don't like or that are distressing or when they're low capacity, they lose it. But I like promoting this idea that, like, I still hate mistakes. Like, I studied the growth mindset. I fully believe that I can get better. But my reactions to a mistake is, like, physiological. It's like an emotional physiological reaction. And I talk about it as being, I think, from a gifted lens that you can perceive the nature of the mistake so clearly and quickly. And it's horrifying because it's wrong and you can think about it differently. But also, if you're, like, autistic, there's something about something being off or wrong that's just, like, distressing.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So I would try to create this space of, like. And most of the parents are like, I hate mistakes, too. Thank you for saying that. Like, right. That you can hate a mistake and still persist and still be resilient and still have a growth mindset. I love that space for that.

[C]

I haven't heard that before. You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset. I feel like that's a very, like, holding the both. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because a lot of us also have obsessive tendencies. And so I think that physiological thing you're describing, I absolutely feel that. And I make a lot of mistakes. And so, yes, the physiological experience of recognizing a mistake that grips me in a way that you like mistakes in RSD rejection.

[B]

Sorry.

[C]

Like, those grip my nervous system in a way that is, like, very unique.

[B]

Yes. And awful. It just.

[C]

They suck.

[B]

It's parents. You can tell your kids this sucks. Like, I guess you're comfortable, right? Like, yeah, it's. It's awful. And I think that's where we lose a lot of 2e kids, where we're sort of like, you have to, like, mistakes. Mistakes are our friends. And they're like, I just can't. But they can be like, this sucks. I hate it. They can rip up their work, they can go to their room, and then they come back 30 minutes later and just come back to it and redo it and keep working on it. So I think that's. I see, like, a lot of distress, but if there's room for the distress, I think there is a lot of growth mindset there, actually. Or the potential for it, if that makes sense. A lot of resilience.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Like, there's this potential to have a fixed mindset about what growth mindset is supposed to look like. And if you can break through that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Embrace a complex growth mindset.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And then a fixed mindset. Maybe we should just. Because we haven't introduced that idea.

[B]

Do you.

[C]

Do you mind briefly explaining what a fixed mindset is for our listeners?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think, like, a fixed mindset is the belief that your abilities are innate and don't change.

[D]

Right.

[B]

That they can't change over time as the result of effort or things like that. I do have, like, a lot of. I've never actually said this out loud, but, like, I'll say it now. Like, you know, and I'm all pro growth mindset. And I'm like, well, I'd like to distinguish between abilities and skills because, like, your cognitive abilities, they don't really change that much over time. And when we're talking about giftedness, we're often talking like, giftedness is usually is often based on some kind of measurement of cognitive abilities that are pretty stable over the lifetime.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And I think sometimes parents get confused or they'll be like, you know, there's this belief like, well, my kid has low processing speed, so how can we work on that and improve it? It's like, you actually can't improve your base processing speed, really, unless it's the result of, like, illness or inflammation or something else.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But you can improve your ability to read quickly by practicing reading a lot.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And you can be faster in that skill or that ability. So I don't know if that's helpful or an important distinction for anyone else.

[C]

But really helpful skill versus ability. And there's also, I think radical honesty is part of embracing a growth mindset of like, yes, this is the processing speed I'm working with. This is the working memory I'm working with. And there's skills, there's accommodations I can build to myself, to my environment. So really emphasizing the skill piece. And I know, like, that's a lot of the feedback I got in parenting when I first learned about this, because the feedback is like, Praise your child's like, their effort, not the outcome. And that's part of facilitating growth. Mindset. So I almost became a hyper vigilant of like, oh, no, I can't tell my daughter. It's a good painting. Good effort on that painting.

[B]

But yeah, no, I really like how.

[C]

You distinguish skill versus ability and also just, I think, mindset around am I going to collapse when I've. When I've bumped into something and it's a no, or am I going to persist? So I really like how you also emphasize persistence and resilience.

[B]

This makes me think too of like, a major theme of twice exceptional experience and like parents of twice exceptional kids, I think is that like, 2e kids are prone to challenges with things and distress.

[D]

Right.

[B]

An emotional upset. And I talk in when I work with parents about trying to validate these really intense feelings and perspectives instead of trying to fight them. And this is just one great example of that where it's like, if you can just say, like, yeah, mistakes are the worst. It's awful. I totally get it. The kid actually hears that, right. They have their feelings and they move on. But if you say, like, hey, don't get so upset. Everyone makes mistakes. It's fine. You don't have to, you know, worry about it. The kid gets stuck in their feeling and their distress and they don't get to move on. And so many of my conversations with parents are helping them, like, unlearn the things they hear about what good parenting is. Like, good parents help their kids, like, mistakes. And like, you're just. That's going to lead you all wrong and it's going to make life so hard.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Whereas if you can just say you don't. Yeah, mistakes. Ugh, you know, the kid will actually be able to get through that feeling. And there's so much, like, there's so much invalidation of the 2e experience because of the distress that's involved.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Or the big reactions that are involved. And so much people are so often telling two E people, like, don't be so worried. It's not a problem. Don't.

[C]

Don't feel what you're feeling.

[B]

And of a molehill.

[C]

Yeah. This came up in a parenting call in the community I run where someone said, and I love this line of, one of the most validating you can. Things you can say to your child is like, what you're feeling makes sense. And I think that is so deeply validating. There's this idea from. It comes out of really trauma psychology. But I've. I'VE heard it applied more to our neurodivergence. And I'm obsessed with this lens now. It's the idea of traumatic invalidation and how there's many different domains in which we can experience invalidation. And when that is done on a persistent low grade level, the idea is it is traumatizing on an identity level because we lose trust in ourself. So if we think about even like just neurodivergent kids, let alone 2e, like sensory invalidation, like, oh, you know, that's. That soup isn't too spicy or it's not too cold in here or it's not too loud in here or all the other ways. Relational invalidation, emotional invalidation.

[B]

And I think.

[C]

And it's, it's not because people are trying to invalidate. Right. I think there's also a lot of the parents are trying to follow, follow the guidelines. Yeah, yeah. Tell you, I think I've done that to my kid of like mistakes, trying to reframe mistakes and in doing that, missing their emotional needs in that moment. So leaning into validation of what you're feeling makes sense. I really like that approach and that's. That is pretty different than what I've come across in a lot of the parenting advice.

[B]

Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. I need to look more into that traumatic invalidation because that resonates so much. I feel like that's what I've tried to explain about the 2e experience a lot is that it's like there is this kind of chronic misalignment or invalidation because the kids are seen as like reacting wrong or doing things wrong. And I think when parents do that, they're coming from the place of really trying to help their kid be less distressed, have an easier life.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But it ends up creating this sense of invalidation. And that was, I think, my experience growing up. And it does, it erodes self knowledge and self trust because like you can't learn. You know, for a kid to say like, I need help, they need to be able to be like, this is awful. You know, like, this feels really bad. And it's. I, I should, I could get an accommodation or I could do something about it versus being like, I feel really bad, but I shouldn't. That's not the right response.

[C]

Like, and then feeling like the secondary emotion of like, I feel bad about feeling bad because I don't do so much of that.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Can I say one more thing about.

[C]

The growth mindset before we move on?

[B]

Because I. It was making me think like you said, you got kind of hypervigilant around not praising the outcome. I had so much training in this as a teacher and really learned to like, narrate and describe process versus on outcome. And then I studied this, right? So with my own kid, it was like, funny because I'm like, this is kind of like an experiment where I'm like, I'm basically never gonna praise outcome. And like, I'm sure I didn't do it a hundred percent right. But I was. It's. It's pretty second nature to me now to describe process instead. And it was amazing for me to see, like, oh, he'll figure out how to focus on the product himself without any intervention from me. And I like to tell parents that. Cause I. And I don't know if that's a gifted quality, right. Where they can. I think some of it is. Or it's just really common with gifted kids of like, like I said, they can envision the way it's supposed to go and they're going to get upset about it. And there is like a. It's like those kids are shaming themselves about doing not a good enough job, even without the parents doing anything. So in some ways, just letting parents know, like, it's not your fault. You didn't create this. Your kid is probably wired this way because I see that so often with gifted kids and adults of like, shame and distress around not getting the product they want right, or doing things perfectly. And a lot of it is even in the face of parents being like, we don't care. Get a c. Do what you want, you know, but it's like an internal distress at not meeting that standard.

[C]

I, I can imagine that creates another tricky, like, invalidation moment of like, one of my kids is a really great artist. But I know this idea that you're saying of, like, when you're gifted, you have a very clear idea in your mind of what you want it to look like, and when it doesn't, you're disappointed. That's really interesting to me because there would be times like that maybe there's a small mistake in it and. And then it'd be like, this is terrible. And I want to come in and be like, no, it's not. It's. It's really good. But like, then again that there's some invalidation there. For her, it is terrible because it is not the experience of what she has in mind. So rather than leaning into like, that must be really disappointing that you can't get it quite like you want It. The urge to come in and say, like, no, it's good.

[B]

I know. And because it probably is really good.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Of you is like, it looks amazing. Like, this is so good. Yeah, well. And I tell parents, too. You don't have to agree with your kid.

[D]

Right.

[B]

You're not like, you're right. It's terrible.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But you're just like, oh, that is not what you. That's not how you wanted it.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Or that's the narrating. You're narrating like you're reflecting back like this there. That's not what you wanted.

[B]

Totally. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. Yeah, well, I'm. I feel like I'm already, like, learning a lot and taking some ideas. I know one of the things that we talked about, talking about was like, I really like how you worded it. The subjective experience of 2e. And I feel like we've kind of dipped into that. But was there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Kind of some more thoughts around that that you wanted to explore?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Because I was talking about, like, hard things are easy and easy things are hard and how confusing that is.

[C]

I think confusion validation. Okay. We're creating like a stack list here.

[B]

Yeah. And I do think the lack of self trust is part of it.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Where it's like you. I. I think there's two. I was thinking about this this morning where I was like. How would I describe this? Like, um, especially well, so.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I now identify as like, gifted autistic, but I could see that someone who's like, gifted ADHD could experience this as well. And I know, I heard your interview with Emily Kircher Morris, and you touched a little bit on this idea of, like, gifted masking where you're trying to hide the way your brain works that doesn't fit in. Or you're just trying to fit in as best you can.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And I was thinking so much of my life, like, a lot of my experience is like, one of having. Having to have like a very strong filter to feel successful in situations where it's like, I have 1 million things I want to say at all times, and many of them are not welcome here. It turns out other people do not.

[C]

Want to hear them.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So learning to filter and mask and like, a lot of kids and teens I work with who are, you know, there's often an experience of high anxiety going along with a twice exceptional profile. And I think some of it comes this constant self monitoring and filtering and this idea that the unfiltered you is bad. Unfiltered you Is embarrassing, shameful, says the wrong thing, does the wrong thing, doesn't get it, it is too much, right? And that you need to really be thoughtful all the time. And that's exhausting. And it's so hard to trust yourself of like, well, here's the thing I would say now I need to put that through for some gifts and autistic folks. It's like I need to now filter that through every social rule I've ever heard in my life, you know, and see if it passes the test. Even if it was just one thing my aunt said to me this one time and one thing I read in People magazine, you know, like my friend is. And I'll have kids say like, well, my friend is sad and I really don't know what to say to them. And it's like, well, what's going through your mind? Well, I thought about saying I'm sorry that happened, but then once I read that you shouldn't say that, you know, and then I thought about this and it's like, oh my gosh, I understand this internal process so much.

[A]

I walk my wife through that all the time and she just looks at me and she's like, I really am glad I'm not in your brain.

[B]

Sounds tiring in there.

[A]

Like so tiring. It's so exhausting because I'm a gifted Audi aged earth and it's often times like the brain is just giving me all of these outcomes and results and you're right, it's just better to sit and process it and try to filter it through. And then you're waiting for that one opportunity that could be the one in to the conversation, you miss it and then you ultimately interrupt at the wrong time or you just don't say anything at all and you leave feeling like very unseeing and it's a lot of fun.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or you like say sometimes. Because I think like I, when I learned the autistic lens, I was like, no wonder I feel that way. Like in, in learning, figuring out I I was autistic reduced so much of my 2e shame I think that I had been carrying my whole life because I was like, I'm actually not as good as everyone thinks I am.

[D]

Right?

[B]

And I was like, oh, I'm different. But there's. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

I've been thinking about this point the entire time and I really hope this is not diverging too much and we can cut this if this just does not feel applicable. But we haven't talked about this at all and what you just said really highlights it for me. Do we think there is so much. This topic can be so polarizing and create a lot of mixed emotions? Because I just quickly googled searched exceptionality definition, which states, like, the state of being exceptional, rare, one of a kind, or unusually excellent. And then it says, in education, it can also refer to a person who requires special. Special schooling due to intellectual, gifted, or physical or mental disability. Now, obviously, that's not the most affirming definition that came immediately up, but do you think there's so much polarization in this conversation because of what exceptionality means to different people in terms of an ableist lens, an elitist lens? When we think about exceptionality versus the ableist lens of, like, well, we're actually talking about someone who is not only gifted but has a disabling condition.

[B]

Who.

[A]

Then we start to unpack that piece.

[C]

Like, exceptional from the norm. You're the first person I've heard say that. And I'm like, I get that. That we're talking about, like, it's. It's statistically exceptional.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Not character.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But if you hear 2e, it's like, like, damn, you're full of yourself.

[A]

Exactly. And that's exactly so.

[B]

Exceptional. A liar twice exceptional. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

It sounds terrible.

[B]

Yeah. That's so interesting. I don't know.

[C]

I'm.

[B]

Well, I feel like most of the pushback I've gotten has been around the giftedness piece. I've also really set my life up to not interact with that many people. So I. And I. Yeah, you say that. Megan, Anna. I'm like, same. Yes. Like, so I don't know. And I do tend to, like, a lot of the talk in the gifted TUI world stresses me out. So I tend to, like, I consume carefully, I guess. So, like, I don't know as much about pushback on 2e or twice exceptional. I do know I've seen lots of people with, like, feel really uncomfortable around the idea of giftedness and even parents I work with.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Who, like, are aware. Like, my kids seems really advanced, but I wouldn't say they're gifted or, I don't know. You know, I don't like that term, so. Yeah, but that makes sense. Like, you're thinking of it as, like, exceptional in that way. Because I think what I used to. I was thinking this morning too, like, I don't know. I think I didn't think that much around the term 2e. But since identifying as autistic, the term has bothered me more because it aligns the you know, it, like, erases the disability and makes it a special gifted thing. And I think, like, yeah, I think that's what's that.

[A]

So that's kind of what I'm getting at. And I think that's what it is for me, too, is like. And it comes back to exactly what you said, which is hard things are easy. Easy things are hard. And when I zoom out into a lens of, like, being both gifted and autistic, well, autistic adhd, I'm like, it feels like everything is really hard for the most part. But then there are these things that just come, like, naturally or instinctively do not require a ton of second or lots of effort. So it's just confusing a lot of the time, if I'm being honest.

[B]

Well, and I think if you. I heard in the conversation with Emily, you said, like, schoolwork was really easy for you growing up.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I think that's a weird thing, too, is, like, not all gifted kids have that experience. But if you are a bad subset, like, that was me, too.

[D]

Right.

[B]

The giftedness piece, I think, gets that. Like, that's where you get the baddest high move of, like, well, school comes easily, and that's what most children are asked to do with most of their day. So that can come easily. And then as. Once you're an adult or go into, like, work tasks are not the same as school tasks. School tasks tend to be highly structured.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like, I remember as a kid, and I've seen this with my clients, like, you can grok the entire assignment, like, the second you see it as a gifted person, and you're like, cool, I'm good. I got it.

[D]

All right.

[B]

Like, I'm ready to be done. But, like, most work tasks don't work that way or. I don't know. I guess it depends. My brother did at all the jobs he's had. There's jobs where he's like, cool, these are my tasks for the month I'm done. It is the third of the month. And they're like, well, you need to keep working. He's like, but I finished my tasks, so do I know. So I guess it depends on what you're doing in your job, but I think those benefits of being gifted are kind of. I think Emily was saying this in her interview, too. Is like. It's very similar to, like, being neurodivergent in another way. Like, I think a lot about the concept of fit, and I talk with parents about that a lot and trying to find the right fit environment for your kids or make the right fit environment. And it's like, you know, if you are having a poor fit between your gifted brain and whatever you're being asked to do or your gifted autistic brain right. In like, that's what determines whether it is a benefit or a detriment in that moment is like the fit with the situation you're in.

[C]

I love that you're bringing in the environment fit. I think that piece is so huge and that's where parents can really step in and intervene. I've been having like, I've just been having so much like personal soul searching and also like conversations with my spouse around this. One thing I shared in a more recent episode was I always have talked about my spouse as neurotypical, but he is, his IQ would put him in the gifted range. And so we had a conversation of like, oh my gosh, I have to stop talking about you as my neurotypical spouse. Like, and it was really interesting for him to talk about. You know, I don't really resonate with the label of gifted. I don't really resonate with the label of neurodivergent. And also, like, I don't know that he would resonate with a lot of the struggles after this. Heirs. I could ask him. That is being brought up around gifted people. But then I also pointed out you, like went to private schools with really smart kids. You've always been around really intelligent people. There is like an environment match there. But it is, it is interesting to realize, like, I've been thinking about that too. There are also gifted people for whom they won't resonate with some of these struggles. And perhaps those are the folks for whom there's more of that environmental match or gifted folks who don't have executive functioning struggles. They're also probably going to have less of that internal confusion, less of that kind of async. I'm really good here, but I really struggle here. But yeah, so I've been thinking through like, there's just so many complexities to how this can show up. Yeah.

[B]

And I think some of it is personality.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And it's hard, I think it's really hard to tease apart what is like level of cognitive ability like giftedness or not.

[D]

Right.

[B]

What is other forms of neurodivergence.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I think also the fact that. Well, let me finish that one first or the next thought. Right. And then some is personality. Because I think what has been an interesting journey for me is like when I had an. I've known a lot about giftedness and gifted kids. And I've been interested in it my whole life.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But only once I recognize that I might be autistic.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Was I like, oh, shoot, how much of those things that I thought were about being gifted or highly gifted are actually autistic characteristics in myself and in these other children I have known that I worked with as a teacher that I'm using as my diverse anecdotal case data that I'm like, you know, amalgamating and, like, and, you know, synthesizing in my mind. And that has been interesting where I'm like, oh, a lot of those characteristics were, I think, were actually autistic characteristics that get attributed to giftedness. Right, Absolutely. And I think this.

[C]

I mean, this happens to all humans.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Confirmation bias. And this happens, like, in the mental health world where we have a lens, we see someone, like, right now, the big one in the mental health world and probably for the last 15 years has been trauma. So this is one of the reasons misdiagnosis happens.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Is when we're kind of primed to see something through a lens. Like, if you're primed to see something through trauma and someone comes in and they're talking about dissociation and relationship struggles.

[B]

It'S like, oh, trauma.

[C]

That makes sense. I'm not thinking like autism or adhd, so it makes so much sense. The same thing would happen with giftedness. And it seems like that's kind of happened with the overexcitabilities framework, which, because to me, I so relate to the overexcitabilities. But I think it's because I'm neurodivergent.

[B]

I don't think it's.

[C]

And so there's all of this overshadowing that happens when we have these complex identities coming together and whatever is our home framework. I think it's so helpful to be aware we're prone to confirmation bias. Like, I'm probably prone to see things as autistic or adhd, because that's my home lens now.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

And so, yes, I love awareness of, like, okay, yeah, we're going to be looking to confirm the belief this is the thing. But I bet that happens so much with gifted kids because autism and ADHD often aren't recognized.

[B]

Totally. Yes. 1. It's interesting, like, maybe for your audience, too, because I'm thinking, like, you probably pull a lot of folks who are interested in, like, neurodivergence in general and adhd, ADHD and autism. And I will say so. I'm like, this is relevant. To share is like, a lot of the parents I work with who come in with these two E or gifted kids, they're like, but I'm not gifted. I'm like, well, like, I don't know you. Maybe not.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like, but also, like, it's highly heritable. The same way these other forms of neurodivergence are. And I think. And I even see this with gifted teens I work with. I think for a lot of gifted folks, there is like, and you were saying make for your husband. Maybe like, not identifying with that. Like, you just don't. If it goes well for you, I think you don't notice that you think that differently than anyone else. You just think you're normal.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And if you have a few friends who think like you or you do well or whatever, it just feels normal.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And a lot of parents don't recognize their kid as gifted because they're like, seems normal to me. You know, me to the head. And that. That gets missed a lot. And I think a lot of adults have just never considered that they might be gifted.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And so sometimes it could be like, for adults who maybe know that they have ADHD or autistic.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But they've never identified with a twice exceptional piece or the giftedness. Sometimes exploring that as an adult can be really helpful for understanding certain aspects of experience.

[C]

Absolutely.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Katie talked about that a little bit last week around kind of late identification of giftedness and how that can also help melt some of the shame. Because of the shame that can come with that identity in a lot of ways. So. And it does seem that it makes sense in the same way that a lot of adults are coming to understanding around their autism or adhd, that a lot of adults would also be coming to understand around their giftedness. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, we're at a conversational lull. Is this a transition point or is this.

[B]

Yeah, I was trying to think if there were other things about the subjective experience to share that I didn't say yet.

[C]

Patrick, you look like you were chewing on something.

[A]

No, I was just taking the time. I was like, how long?

[B]

Checking the time to talk about parenting, if that would be a good.

[C]

Oh, yeah, let's. Yeah, that'd be. I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I know.

[C]

So you work. I mean, you do a lot of different things. You have a practice, but one of the things you do is you run this learning lab for parents, helping them support their kids. And I know you have a parenting framework. Are you comfortable sharing? Like, I think there's Four pillars. Like, yeah, what are some of the kind of foundational ways that you encourage parents to show up differently for their 2e or gifted kids?

[B]

Yeah, I can tell you kind of write the four pillar framework that I recover that in the program and then we apply it to different experiences. But so it was like me trying to distill, like, I would say, like, every TUI kid is different.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like, so there it's. I don't want to say, like, well, I have these ideas and they're going to work for every 2e kid or every intense gifted or twice exceptional kid out there. But I tried to identify, like, guiding principles that I think are relevant for every gifted or two E kid and parent. And then in the program, we talk about how do you actually apply this to your kid and your family and how does it get adapted? But the first one is just kind of understanding giftedness and twice exceptionality and which, like, kind of what a gifted and twice exceptional brain, what the characteristics are that tend to manifest as intensity. Because I also am specifically focusing on people who just. Intensity is not. Intense is not a technical term, but just like, you kind of know if you've got an intense kid or not. Right. So it's like, that's the people who this is for, but sort of just the characteristics that underlie it. Because a lot of times it does like, these characteristics get attributed to, like, personality or, you know, like, oh, these kids are lazy or they're rude or they're defiant. It's like, well, no, there's actually like neutral brain characteristics that underlie those things. That's just like your kid focuses better on things that are interesting to them.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And it's really hard to focus on things that aren't. Or like, transitions are hard. And helping parents understand these more neutral characteristics that can give rise to intensity when the situation is not a great fit.

[D]

Right.

[B]

When it's like, let's get through eight steps of the morning routine, that's going to be intense for a child who doesn't like, transitions or who finds those tasks distressing from a sensory perspective. So we talk about trying to understand their kid's brain through that framework so they have a better sense of what works and what doesn't work for their kid or what's hard. And then I talk. One week is all about validating intensity without trying to teach your kids anything in the moment. So we talk about how to validate intense feelings. But also for TUI kids, I find that most of them don't like, if you name Feelings, Like a lot of them experience those things more cognitively. And I know that that can be common for a lot of autistic folks too. But really trying to validate your kid's perspective and where they're coming from, which is different than a lot of parents have learned, like, maybe emotion coaching, but they find that when their kid is upset and they're like, oh, you're disappointed. The kid is like, shh.

[C]

Yeah, I tricked their mood clients. Like, I read a lot, like the whole brain child. And I remember when I tried that, that often did not go over well.

[B]

I. And it's interesting.

[C]

I thought about it from kind of like a PDA lens or like, I think if someone mirrors my emotions kind of clumsily, like it feels intrusive, condescending, condescending, like, don't tell me how I feel.

[B]

It's like, yeah.

[C]

And maybe that's my demand. Avoidance. But that's interesting. I hadn't tied it to like a giftedness element. Do you know for adults too? Like, adults. Because one of the conversations that's also come up is like gifted therapy. Like, for adults that are gifted, do you feel like they also have that kind of knee jerk reaction to having their emotions aired?

[B]

That's a good question. I don't know. Because what's your. I don't know enough gifted adults to like.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I. I hate sample size too. Here.

[A]

I really hate. It really makes me uncomfortable. It makes me feel. I don't know. I. I get really frustrated. I think I get really irritated by that, especially if it's inaccurate or if it's just like completely missing the mark or furthermore, if it feels like it's just placating and just like. Then it's like, yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Patrick, you seem really irritated right now as you reflect on this.

[A]

I have no emotions right now other than, like having to pee really badly. That's my only emotions.

[B]

Everything else, feeling the physiological sensation. But that's a great example of what a TUI person might tell you.

[D]

Right?

[B]

How do you feel right now? I really have to pee. That's my only feeling about it, which is.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Which can lead to a lot of confusing conversations and.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's hard to know because I think, like, I think my kid. My kid has PDE characteristics and so do I. And a lot of the families who come to my program with an intense gifted two week kid, we do end up talking a lot about pda. So it's hard to know how much of it is that.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But Also, and honestly, most of the kids in my private practice seem to have some of those characteristics. So I don't. It's one of those things where I'm like, oh, wait, I thought this was all about giftedness. Oh, maybe autism. Oh, it's.

[C]

And alexithymia. And it's like, yeah. So I think it's all of these things because I very much relate to that again, as a non gifted person. And it's. For me, it's alexithymia. It's demand avoidance. It's because my emotions tend to be more expressed through ideas and cognition than.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like I feel X emotions.

[B]

Right. One, it's a, it's an oversimplification often of like all the things that are going on for the person in the moment.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So yeah, and I think it, and I think it's helpful for parents to know that because they're trying to do the right thing.

[D]

Right.

[B]

They've read that helping your. That you need to help your kid label their emotions.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And you need to see them. And it often just leads to so much distress and fighting.

[C]

So you have ways of teaching parents to validate. That is not the classic.

[D]

Right?

[C]

Like mirror the emotions, name the emotions. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Exactly. And for some kids, they don't want you to say anything. So you know, you can just validate in your mind and try to accept like, yeah, they're upset right now. That's valid.

[C]

Do you do more process? Like you talked a lot about narrating process. Is that one way that parents can validate?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I think we kind of experiment to see what works with their kids. But like, I do talk a lot about trying to like understand where your kid is from coming from and to validate their perspective in some way. So it could be right by trying to name it. And there are some like phrases that work for lots of kids.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like you were not expecting that. That is a really useful phrase for most.

[C]

That's a great phrase. You were not expecting that.

[B]

Yeah. Because that's often upsetting to our kids.

[D]

Right.

[B]

To 2e kids, they hate things they're not expecting. And you're not saying like, gosh, you're really sad that happened, or you're so disappointed, you're just like, oh, that was unexpected. Or you were not expecting that. Or even with your daughter's art example.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like, oh, that is not what you had in mind. Or one that I like that some families have had success with is like, who designed this? Where you're just like, right. They're like, this game is out. It did that. Who made it that way? That doesn't make any. That is way too hard, you know, and they're like, yes. Or like one parent used it with her daughter's hairbrush, right? Who Sensory nightmare.

[D]

Right?

[B]

And she's like, who designed hair brushes? And the kid thought that was hilarious, right? And it's like, this is terrible. And it's kind of bringing on their thinking mind of like, there's a better way to do this. And this is awful. So sometimes blaming the object is really useful right off. Those sandals. Those sandals are who just right. Like, those sandals or like, those winter boots are so hard to tie. They're so stiff. Like, you know, you're just trying to explain and like, depersonalize a lot of times. Because I do think part of the tui experience is like a real vulnerability to feeling shame and some of, you know, and just like feeling ashamed that, like, I can't tie my boots. I'm a terrible person. It just goes to the, you know, and I experience that. So I know it's not logical, but it's like, like, I hate, you know, I can't tie my boots. I hate myself. Um, and so trying to learn to hate the boots, that is. Learn to hate the boots. Yes, exactly.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. So the validating is a big piece. And then we talk about when I started out, I started with kind of like helping with strengths and challenges, but I've reframed strengths as like really incorporating your autonomy and your kids interests as you can in life. Because those are two huge 2e strengths and they're so regulating. So the more you can give your kids autonomy and the more you can incorporate things they like. Even if it's something as simple as, like when you go get them up in the morning, just talk with them about their interests while you all get ready.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So then you're just asking, like, what is going on in the warriors cats books? And they are telling you all about it, you know, and you're like, great, just walk with me to the bathroom while we do that. So sometimes it's little stuff like that. But that's the big principle, right? The more autonomy and the more their interests are there, the better they feel usually. And then supporting challenges by embracing neurodiversity. And I will say, like a big piece. This isn't the subjective experience. Exactly. But when you're parenting a gifted tui kid, it is so easy to underestimate how hard things are for your kid. And it's just so Easy to just not be able to tell. Even for me, this is my job. I think about it every day. And sometimes there are things where I'm like, there's a moment where you know and you're like, this is too hard for you. This is going sideways. Oh, shoot.

[D]

Right?

[B]

Like I could have provided more structure or we could have left 10 minutes ago or shouldn't have done this today. It was too much in a day or whatever it is. And so helping parents think of different ways to like make hard things easier and just figure out non traditional ways to do things that work for your kid. So those are the four big pieces.

[C]

Yeah, that also is really helpful. You might be getting an email for me. No, it's been interesting. As we've been going through this series, I realize I've put a lot of attention to my kids autism and adhd, but less so to the gifted element and that framework. Just first it sounds really like neurodiversity affirming, but also it sounds really practical. Yeah, yeah. And I now I'm. Because I think in like resource curation, I want like a cheat sheet of like go to sentences that are validating for gift kids. I'm like, who designed this? And that makes sense. And like we, all the parents need that and maybe we need it for ourselves. Like validating sentences for ourselves.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Yes. And often at the end of my little eight week cycle with parents, it's like cool. Now if we could all just go back through and apply all these to ourselves, like all these principles, all these ideas, practice validating ourselves, giving ourselves autonomy, incorporating our own interests. Like, yeah, it's really helpful for us as grownups too.

[C]

So yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I would make that sheet with you if you want. That'd be really cool.

[C]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[C]

Let me know if you wanna. Yeah, I am trying to make more like one page resources and we could, even if we get it out in the next few weeks, we could even attach it to the show notes.

[B]

I would love that. I like practical, I really do. Like, I like big ideas. But then for parents it's like you just need something that you can literally do and it helps and you're like, great, that helped. Yeah.

[C]

Well, and this is partly because like I shared in a newsletter recently, one of my kids, this was years ago, but we drove past a sign that was like slow disabled child here. And my child asked, am I disabled? And my brain, which is also a very complex brain, was like, okay, social model disability. I'm thinking through all the models of disability and I'm like, how do I respond to this question? And sometimes in moments like that, you just need a concrete inquiry. And I was able to think through it enough to be like, well, what do you think? And then that led into conversations which, you know, that's always a good solid.

[B]

It's a good go to give.

[C]

Give you time more. Especially for me, like, my processing speed is lower. So also sentences that give us time to process.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So, yes, I love a good sentence script, especially because our, our brain can want to go a thousand different ways and see all the complexity. And so it can be very soothing to have that go to sentence.

[B]

Yeah, sounds great.

[C]

Well, thank you so much for your time today. This has been a really interesting conversation. We've, we've dived more into the 2e experience and this is the first conversation we've had explicitly around parenting. So thank you for that. Yeah. Where, where can folks find you if they're wanting to learn about the learning lab or learn about your practice or your work? Where are the best places for folks to find you?

[B]

Yeah. So the gifted learning lab is giftedlearninglab.com I have a free weekly or mostly weekly email that folks can sign up for there. And I also have, I put together like a free 5 day email mini course for reducing power struggles that cover some of those big principles that applied specifically to power struggles. And so that'[e-mail] power. I am on Instagram and Facebook if you search Gifted learning lab. I have limited capacity these days, so most of my energy goes towards my email list in the actual coaching program. And the coaching program is support your intense gifted two week kid. So that's giftedlearninglab.com kid. People can find all the details and things there and people can schedule if they look at it and they think it might be a fit, but they have questions about it, they can schedule a free zoom chat with me. And I also offer two pay what you can spots for each cohort because the program is pretty high touch, like highly interactive. So it is a more expensive program, but there's two slots each time for pay what you can.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because Danica has been a sponsor of this series, not only will all of that information be in the show notes, but it's actually in every single episode's show notes. So make sure to go check that out and get all of those amazing resources because that sounds like a really incredible program.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks for having me today. This was so fun.

[C]

No, thanks so much for for coming on.

[B]

I. I really enjoyed this. Yeah. Awesome.

[A]

And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms. And YouTube you can like download, subscribe and share and by Foreign.

[C]

Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources, Freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout-resources it's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.