Detailed Summary: Divergent Conversations Ep. 83

Title: Giftedness (Part 4): Parenting 2e Kids: High Standards and Emotional Needs
Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff (C), Patrick Casale (A)
Guest: Dr. Danika Maddocks (B)
Release Date: December 6, 2024

EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, hosts Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale sit down with Dr. Danika Maddocks, a gifted/2e (twice exceptional) parent coach and owner of the Gifted Learning Lab. The discussion dives into parenting twice-exceptional (2e) children—those who are both gifted and neurodivergent (for instance, autistic, ADHD, dyslexic, etc.). The conversation explores the subjective experience of 2e individuals, common misunderstandings, internalized shame dynamics, challenges around fixed/growth mindset, and practical strategies for supporting 2e kids’ emotional and practical needs. Dr. Maddocks shares her personal journey as a late-identified autistic, her work, and her framework for affirming, validating, and connecting with emotionally intense 2e children.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Dr. Maddocks’ Personal Context and Path to 2e Advocacy

• Early Identification & Family Dynamics

  • Dr. Maddocks was identified as gifted at age 7 due to boredom in school, with “giftedness” becoming a family identity.
    • [02:26] Quote: “My mom would often say, like, well, that's because you're gifted, right?” (B)
  • Importance of acknowledging both useful and problematic aspects of “giftedness” as family narrative, including elitism and ableism.
    • [03:05] Quote: “The problematic parts are, like, everyone else is dumb, so, like, life is really hard that, you know, like, we're smarter than everyone.” (B)

• Misattribution of Challenges

  • Many of Dr. Maddocks’ autistic traits were reframed by her family as giftedness, not realized as neurodivergence.
    • [04:27] Quote: “A lot of the autistic experiences I had were attributed to giftedness by my mom. Like, misattributed to giftedness.” (B)

• Professional Trajectory

  • Fascination with how educational settings can or cannot “fit” different brains; led to doctoral work and a focus on twice exceptionality.
    • [05:41-09:04]
  • Only recently realized she was 2e herself, deepening empathy for clients.

2. Defining Twice Exceptionality (2e)

• Definition and Nuance
  • Twice exceptional = "gifted" (as an exception to the norm) plus another form of neurodivergence or disability (e.g., autism, ADHD, dyslexia, processing differences).
    • [09:25] Quote: “Being 2e is being twice exceptional, with exceptional being an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing.” (B)
  • Emphasis on diversity, not hierarchy or superiority.

3. The Internal World of 2e Kids: Confusion, Standards, and Shame

• Asynchronous Strengths and Struggles

  • "Hard things are easy, easy things are hard" describes the core 2e experience.
    • [11:12] Quote: “When you're gifted, things that people think are ... hard can come very easily ... But then things that would seem like they would be easy tend to be really hard.” (B)
  • Practical examples: Quick grasp of complex topics, alongside struggles with basic tasks (tooth brushing, social situations, executive function, etc.)

• Confusion—Internal and External

  • Both adults and kids may be perplexed: “Why are you so good at X, but can’t do Y?”
    • [13:02] “If you're an adult who's 2e, it might be confusing for the people around you ... But it's also so confusing internally.” (B)

• The Shame Spiral and ‘Good Person’ Standards

  • Internal self-doubt and feelings of deficiency arise when talent in some areas is offset by struggles in others.
    • [14:04] Quote: “Maybe I'm a horrible person or there's something really wrong with me because all these things that are things that good people do … I can't do those things, and I don't know why.” (B)
  • Leads to perfectionism, obsessive “I’m not good” stories, and sometimes scrupulosity OCD tendencies.
    • [14:40] Quote: “That feels like a recipe for that sort of obsessive story ... because the expectation is I should be able to be good at this because I'm good at these other things.” (C/Megan)

• Perceiving Ideal Standards

  • Gifted kids recognize “the perfect outcome” faster and more vividly than peers, increasing self-criticism.
    • [15:36] Quote: “Gifted kids perceive the expectations and can cognitively understand the right or ideal way to do things at a higher level of complexity than their peers ... Internally, I think they're experiencing an inability to meet standards way more often than other kids.” (B)

• Fitting In and Masking

  • The need to “filter” and “mask” to fit social environments is exhausting and breeds more self-doubt.
    • [33:13] “Having to have a very strong filter to feel successful in situations where it's like, I have 1 million things I want to say at all times, and many of them are not welcome here...” (B)

4. Fixed Mindset, Growth Mindset, and The Experience of Mistakes

• Giftedness and Mindset

  • While one might expect the “gifted” label to create a fixed mindset, research is inconclusive; many gifted/2e individuals strive for growth but feel deep distress over errors.
    • [17:49] “You’d think they'd be more fixed mindset ... but it doesn't actually work that way.” (B)
    • [18:50] “Most of the kids I know are like, no, they're not [mistakes]. I hate them. They are not my friend. They are horrible. They feel awful. And I don't actually need to make mistakes to learn.” (B)

• Reconciling Mistake Anxiety with Growth

  • Not loving mistakes is not the same as a fixed mindset—one can despise errors but still persist and learn.
    • [21:26] Quote: “You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset.” (B)
    • [21:56] “Like, those grip my nervous system in a way that is, like, very unique.” (C/Megan)

• Societal Messages About Effort and Process

  • Over-enthusiasm for praising process over result sometimes fails to soothe gifted/2e kids, who are already hyper-aware of their own fallibility.
    • [30:54] “They're shaming themselves about doing not a good enough job, even without the parents doing anything.” (B)

5. The Dangers of Traumatic Invalidation

• Chronic Invalidation

  • Ongoing, low-level invalidation (especially of emotional/sensory experience) can be traumatizing to identity—leading to self-doubt, loss of self-trust, and emotional suppression.
    • [27:46] Quote: “One of the most validating things you can say to your child is, like, ‘What you're feeling makes sense.’” (C)
    • [28:45] Quote: “It erodes self knowledge and self trust because … for a kid to say like, I need help, they need to be able to be like, this is awful.” (B)

• Validation as Practical Parenting

  • Instead of minimizing distress (“it’s not so bad”), simply acknowledge reality (“Yeah, mistakes suck. That’s awful.”).
    • [26:22] “If you can just say you don't. Yeah, mistakes. Ugh … the kid will actually be able to get through that feeling.” (B)

6. Words, Labels, and the Pushback Around ‘Gifted’ and ‘2e’

• ‘Exceptional’ Language and Societal Discomfort

  • The term “exceptional” is statistically descriptive, not evaluative, but is often misread as elitist or ableist.
    • [09:25] “With exceptional being an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing … some people are like, I like it. I'll be twice exceptional. That sounds great. I'm just incredible.” (B)

• Mixed Public Reactions

  • Both “gifted” and “twice exceptional” provoke unease, misunderstandings, and sometimes outright rejection by parents and professionals.
    • [37:18] “I feel like most of the pushback I’ve gotten has been around the giftedness piece ... and a lot of adults have just never considered that they might be gifted.” (B)

• Confirmation Bias in Diagnoses

  • Professionals may see kids through a single lens (trauma, giftedness, etc.), missing layered identities.
    • [44:33] “And so there's all of this overshadowing that happens when we have these complex identities coming together and whatever is our home framework. I think it's so helpful to be aware we're prone to confirmation bias.” (C)

7. Practical Parenting Frameworks for 2e/Intense Kids [48:07–59:06]

Dr. Maddocks’ Four Pillars:

[48:07–49:47]

1. Understanding Giftedness/2e and its Manifestations

   • Many traits are not “behavior problems” but normal results of brain wiring (e.g., sensitivity to transitions, interest-driven focus).

2. Validation of Intensity

   • Don’t try to “teach” in the heat of the moment; validate the child’s (sometimes cognitive) distress.
   • Many 2e/intense kids reject traditional emotion coaching focused on labeling feelings.
     • [54:29] Useful phrase: “You were not expecting that.”
     • [54:53] “Oh, that is not what you had in mind.”
     • [55:18] “Who designed hairbrushes?” – Blame the object, not the child, to help externalize frustration.

3. Leveraging Autonomy and Interests

   • Autonomy and deep interests are both strengths and regulating for 2e kids—build them into routines and transitions.

4. Supporting Challenges by Embracing Neurodiversity

   • Make things easier rather than holding rigid expectations; focus on “fit”—structure, flexibility, accommodations, leaving early when needed, etc.

• [56:43] Quote: “The more autonomy and ... their interests are there, the better they feel usually. And then supporting challenges by embracing neurodiversity.” (B)

8. Key Memorable Quotes

• [03:42] “Your kid's not better than other kids. They're just different.” (B)
• [13:02] “Why are you such an incredible therapist, but you can't keep up with your progress notes?” (B)
• [21:26] “You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset.” (B)
• [26:48] “What you're feeling makes sense.” (C)
• [54:29] “You were not expecting that.” (B)
• [55:18] “Who designed hairbrushes?” (B)

TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Dr. Maddocks’ 2e/Family Backstory: [01:42] – [09:04]
• Defining 2e: [09:25] – [10:30]
• Subjective 2e Experience/Confusion: [11:12] – [16:19]
• Shame, Standards, and Fixed/Growth Mindset: [16:19] – [23:03]
• Traumatic Invalidation & Validation Practices: [26:22] – [28:45]
• Pillar Framework/Parenting Practices: [48:07] – [59:06]
• Practical Validating Phrases: [54:29], [55:18]
• Concluding Resources and Contact Info: [60:55] – [62:33]

TAKEAWAYS FOR LISTENERS

• The lived experience of 2e kids/adults is often one of internal confusion, shame, and feeling out of sync—extraordinary abilities side by side with practical and/or emotional struggles.
• Validation—meeting kids (and yourself) where they are emotionally and practically—is more effective than pushing “resilience,” “growth mindset,” or “emotional labeling” in rigid ways.
• Words matter, both in clinical language and in parenting. Recognize “exceptionality” as statistical not moral or hierarchical.
• Supporting 2e kids means accommodating their unique mix of needs and strengths, not expecting “consistency” with neurotypical or even typically gifted peers.

RESOURCE LINKS

• Gifted Learning Lab: giftedlearninglab.com
• 5-Day Mini Course – Reducing Power Struggles: giftedlearninglab.com/power
• Gifted Learning Lab on Instagram/Facebook: @giftedlearninglab
• Pay What You Can Spots for Support Program: giftedlearninglab.com/kid
• Neurodivergent Insights Burnout Resources: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources

For more practical validating phrases and printable guides, look for resources in the show notes or contact Dr. Maddocks and Dr. Neff directly.