← Divergent Conversations
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
- [00:09]
B
And I'm Dr. Neff.
- [00:11]
A
And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. Thanks for listening. Okay, so.
- [00:34]
B
Okay.
- [00:35]
A
We just finished recording our Giftedness series, and I know we both have a lot of thoughts and feelings and, aha. Moments that have come up along the way.
- [00:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah. What is this series been like for you?
- [00:52]
A
I think I. You know, it's interesting. We were just talking with Danica. Is her last name Maddox? I want to make sure I got it right. Yeah, Anakin Maddox. And I was just sitting there thinking about, like, okay, I have definitely experienced, weirdly, in my opinion, like, more shame and stigma using the gifted label or association for myself than I have for the autistic ADHD labels or designations like.
- [01:22]
B
Stigma from yourself or stigma from other.
- [01:24]
A
People for myself, for sure. And then what went through my mind so often throughout those episodes is like, damn. For most people listening, how in the hell do they really figure out how to differentiate between, like, the autistic experience and a lot of the gifted experience? Because a lot of the subjective stuff that we talked about and a lot of this stuff that we talked about would make such a good Venn diagram for you.
- [01:52]
B
Well, Katie's already done that, thankfully, so I don't have to touch that. But no, but, yeah, there are definitely times where even. Or I even I would kind of step in and be like, well, actually, I think what you're describing is adhd, because I also do that, and I think it does get so messy. And I think that's part of, like, folks who are critical of the gifted conversation and the ableism in it. Like, that is the critique is that these other traits, like autistic ADHD traits, get overshadowed when someone's like, oh, that's gifted. And maybe that kind of gets to the conversation in the ND space in general of, like, oh, that's an autism thing. Or, oh, that's like. There's a lot of monopolizing of traits that happens. Like, oh, that's a gifted trade. It's like, well, maybe we can lean in with curiosity. Okay, that's an experience a human's having. There might be a lot of factors for that, but there is this urge to, like, label it. That's a gifted trait. That's an ADHD trait. That's an autistic trait. That's a R. That's rsd. Like this obsession with naming. Not that naming and labeling. Like, I think that's very powerful, but it can be kind of reductionistic, I think, if we're not careful.
- [03:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think when we step into a space where people are naming things that they have maybe been searching for for their entire life and it feels very much like identity focused, that it does get monopolized a lot of times, like we've talked about. And you do a really good job of this, much better than me when you talk about like, okay, this might be an autistic person who has some ADHD traits or experiences, but that doesn't mean that they're also adhd. And because we have this cross neurotype familiarity and there's so much association and, and correlation, things get lost. I think that. And I was just paying attention to even our comments on our social media. Obviously I am guilty of that all the time. Just the realization of how polarizing this subject is for a lot of people.
- [04:02]
B
Yeah, I, I mean, I had known, so I. It's interesting for someone who has a large account. I actually don't open social media anymore, like, very rarely. Like, I think I looked at my phone. I think typically on a week I've been on social media like five minutes in a given week. And so I don't, I don't have a good pulse on the conversation. But I had seen like one thing around. Someone had said, gifted isn't neurodivergence, and there was a big conversation around it. So, yeah, the. So far when we're recording this, we've only released one episode and realizing just how tense of a conversation this is, I also did not know what we were getting into, which maybe it's really good that we kind of naively walked into this conversation. Yeah.
- [04:48]
A
Because we both walked into it with a lot of curiosity instead of walking into it feeling like the expert role by any means, not in general. One thing I saw a lot of comments about, and not just in our post, but like, because I would hate to say that I've been on social media for more than five minutes each week, probably closer to 20 hours in a week.
- [05:11]
B
How are you mentally? Okay, I'm not.
- [05:17]
A
But one thing I see so often in a lot of spaces, not just the one reel that we've already posted, is. Isn't gifted just autism? That's what comes up.
- [05:28]
B
Wait, what no, it's like, I'm not.
- [05:31]
A
Right.
- [05:32]
B
That would. That would equate. That would mean all autistic people are gifted, right? Or. Oh, they're saying everyone who's gifted is autistic. I guess you could say it the other way.
- [05:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:43]
B
No, Right. I don't.
- [05:46]
A
Because you. I've watched you sit through these, the series, and, you know, offline, even texting you, like, megan, are you sure you're not gifted? Like, and colleagues of ours have also said similar things, and you're like, no, like, I am not. Right. It's almost like having to defend the fact that you.
- [06:06]
B
It's. Having to defend how not smart I am. No, it is. It's. I've been thinking about that, too, because that. Actually, it's interesting. I think through most of my life, this wouldn't have happened, but perhaps because I am perceived as successful and maybe because I have a doctorate, like, this happens a lot to me. When I disclose I'm not gifted, I often will get. It'll be a range of, like, surprise, which is like. That kind of feels good a little bit to, like, straight up push back of like, no, you're gifted. Here's why. And then I'm like. I have to go into the details of, like, how difficult school was for me, how my iq, how, like, my iq, you know, I'm. I'm in the top quarter of intelligence. Like, I'm not saying I'm not intelligent, but having to unpack, like, yeah, my iq. And so it's a. I'm always curious, like, what happens for gifted people when they hear I'm not gifted? Because it. They don't like it, and they, like, want me to be gifted.
- [07:10]
A
I. I'm not gonna lie. I was one of those people, for sure.
- [07:12]
B
I was like, yeah, what was going on for you? Like, why. What didn't you, like?
- [07:18]
A
I guess it's shock. I don't know. I. I just. And I know you're gonna get uncomfortable by what I'm about to say, but I think that for me, I. I look at you, and I think a lot of people look at you this way, or they're like, megan is so freaking smart. Megan is so. I'm trying to find my words because I don't want to. I don't want to, like, misconstrue what I'm trying to say. I think people look at you as a role model in this field. I think they look at you as someone who has a lot of knowledge about something that feels really Complex. And I think that creates confusion if we're saying like, well, Megan is really passionate about this. This is a special interest. This is her. This is the identity they experience on a daily basis. Like, there's so much to that unpack. And I think there is an association of like, intelligence and giftedness in some ways. Right. And like, I would, I would say if we posted a poll, which would be fun in a way to say, like, who's more intelligent, Patrick or Megan? Your results would be. It would be a landslide. Like, it wouldn't even be close. You know what I mean? So I think that there is that. That piece that, that probably creates a little bit of like, huh?
- [08:36]
B
And.
- [08:38]
A
But I know you as a friend and I know how hard you've. You've said to me, like, I've had to work so hard at everything that I do and it does not come naturally to me in a lot of ways. So I, I just want to publicly apologize for being like, surprised by that and sharing that with you because I feel like that also minimizes your existence and your experience. And that's certainly not my intention.
- [09:02]
B
No, I mean, I don't think you need to apologize for being surprised. That that is kind of a common reaction. It has been interesting. Like I've thought about. I do. It would be interesting.
- [09:15]
A
I think I actually don't want to know the result of that if that's what you're about to say.
- [09:21]
B
No, no, I was more. More about the minimizing. I was trying to like, think if there were thoughts there or feelings there. But yeah, there I do think that speaks to like, it's easy to correlate having a lot of knowledge with. With being gifted. And I kind of like that. I get to be an example of. I'm someone who, Yes, I do. I do have above average intelligence. I going to pretend like that's not there.
- [09:51]
A
Right.
- [09:52]
B
And also a lot, A lot of passion, a lot of like intellectual curiosity, you know, with the overexcitabilities framework. Like, I very much relate to that. I think intellectual OE would be like my top OE and that. Like, I like that because I think you're right. There's a conflation of if someone is successful, if someone is intellectual, if someone likes ideas, if someone has a doctorate, they must be gifted. But there's plenty of us who are not gifted but also are able to do those things. Yeah, Yeah. I think the one. Okay, so I have been thinking about this and this is more when people are pushing back and sometimes what they'll say is things like, well, you have such nuanced thoughts or you hold complexity so well. And I did realize I was like, ooh. Like, that does feel a little bit like an insult of like, you have to be gifted to hold nuanced thoughts. Because I would attribute that more to the construct of wisdom than intelligence. And I do think wisdom is something that I've, like, I really value and I've, like, tried to cultivate it. I'm not saying I'm like the wisest human, but it's something that, for much of my life, like, I've. That's something that I've striven to push toward wisdom. And so that is something I've realized when folks see a mind they like that embraces complexity, that maybe they shouldn't assume that's about iq. Maybe they should consider other things like wisdom or other constructs. Because I feel like it would be problematic if the idea is gifted people are these complex, nuanced thinkers and everyone else is a simpleton.
- [11:42]
A
Yeah, no kidding. That's really well said. That's a great point. I think that is something that there is conflation. I think that I still don't like the terminology. I don't like terrible. I think the last episode, what I was saying about what 2e means in terms of definition, I think that feels really insulting in a lot of ways and off putting in some ways. And I think that there is probably, like I said in that episode, a lot of confusion when we're using the word exceptionality in different lenses and frames.
- [12:26]
B
And I think this is why individuals like you have so much difficulty having this conversation is how do I talk about an identity that I have a complex relationship to that is soaked in privilege? And in a time where it's uncomfortable to sit with our own privilege. And so then to talk about, I'm going to bring out this identity that's soaked in privilege, and I'm going to talk about how it's hard for me, like, oh, my goodness, that's a really uncomfortable thing to do, let alone to do publicly. Or you need speaking of wisdom, like, you need spaces that can hold a lot of complexity to be able to have that conversation. Well, which is probably why this is not the conversation to be having on social media, because that tends to be a platform where it's hard to hold complex, nuanced, searching conversations.
- [13:19]
A
You're 100% right. I was going to make a sarcastic joke of like, and you mean that is not on social media, but that's the Reality of like, that's really not where these conversations need to be held because the divisiveness of social media, which we've talked about so much on this podcast, and, and just in general, and we don't need to rehash that, but I think that is a part of it for sure. And just unpacking that privilege, right, of, of saying, okay, I'm gifted, I am a cishet white male. I have a master's. Like, there's lots of layers of privilege. So it's very hard and complex to sometimes break that down and say things are so hard so often. And that's why what Danica said about like, easy things are hard, hard things are easy as like some of the. The context to that episode, I was like, yeah, that really feels like the, that, that's like the nail on the head for me. A lot of situations.
- [14:16]
B
And that's an idea I also relate to. I think that's a common actually experience for neurodivergent people. But what my guess is is that for gifted two way people, the spikes are spikier. So the gap between like, what is what I. The gap for me of like, things that are easy for me and things that are hard for me is probably a little bit smaller than the gap is for you would be my guess. And so I think when it's a steeper gap there, there can be more tension around it. And so, so yeah, that, that. Because I, I very much relate to that too. And I think that is part of the confusion of being neurodivergent. And then throw on top of that giftedness. I think that would be really disorienting. And then go back to the idea of it's hard to trust myself. Like, it's hard to even gauge my ability, let alone trust my ability.
- [15:03]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Spot on. Another thing that stood out to me was the performance Cliff.
- [15:10]
B
Yeah, well, I'm curious. Yeah. What stood out about that to you?
- [15:15]
A
Who was the person? Was it Matt Zakreski?
- [15:17]
B
Yeah, Matt. Yeah.
- [15:19]
A
Okay. So that episode, we were talking about the performance Cliff, and I, I mean I, I said this in the episode, but I, I very much relate to that of like, okay, school's coming so easy. This thing, all these things are coming very naturally. Boom. All of a sudden I'm hit with this situation where like, maybe life has become a little more challenging than I'm equipped to deal with, or maybe my academic setting has become more than I have the tools to. To resource around. And all of a sudden it feels like I Can't figure out anything. And that is really a mind mindset. Been doing. You can say it on this podcast. I just want to say that publicly. It just is, it is definitely a situation where you are all of a sudden because I think if you've gone, gone through most of your life like, like we talked about in the last episode, you're so smart. Oh my God. Like this is. Everything has come so easy and then boom, you're hit with this like performance cliff of. It really makes you question your sense of self in a lot of ways.
- [16:17]
B
I think I thought about that aspect of it. So it leads to like a loss of self trust because it's like, wait, this was working and now all of a sudden I like, I don't know how to, to do it. To do life. That's interesting. I'm really excited and slightly anxious to announce that my book, the Autistic Burnout Workbook is releasing this next week. It comes out March 11th. It's available for pre order right now. I am trying to avoid falling back into burnout. When you release a book, there is a lot of pressure to do promotion and to market and to get the word out there. So this is my burnout prevention form of marketing. I'm running a special right now for those who are supporting my work through pre ordering. You can submit that information after you pre order and we will get you a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. So the workbook costs 18.99. So then you'd get 18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which would get you another digital workbook for free. So you buy one workbook and then you get a digital one for free. That is the promotion I'm running. It's technically a pre order promotion, but I've been a bit behind on getting the word out. So for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend that if you buy the book in the next month, you can go ahead and redeem this special. The link for that is in the notes below. Thank you so much for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I just really appreciate you and hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic pronoun.
- [18:01]
A
You had mentioned something that, you know, the way you, you put it in that episode, right, about like having to learn how to do school, how to learn how to do certain things. So then you almost have to, like, step back and reevaluate. How do I now, like, learn how to do the things that were coming instinctively? And do I even feel like I am able to do those things? And that is a really weird place to be. That happened to me when I hit college, my undergrad, and that was not a good time for that to happen because, you know, your new setting, new environment, new social stuff going on, and all the things that happen with that transition, and it was just like, I am lost. Like, I felt so freaking lost.
- [18:47]
B
That would be a hard. A hard time for that to hit. That's so interesting. It makes me think of also that idea of, like, I know the math answer, but I don't know how to explain my work, like, to get to a point of, like, being college. Of, like, I don't know how to explain how I got here, which means I don't know how to, like, break down how to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. So the performance cliff idea came up, and this is another reason why when people push back and, like, I think you're gifted. I'm like, no, I'm not. Beyond my IQ test, it's like, I just don't relate to some of, like, the experiences we've talked about that where I'm like, that feels like a gifted experience. I don't relate to that. The experiences that's been talked about on the series where it feels like I'm overlapping with neurodivergence or overexcitabilities, I'm like, yes, I relate. So I just don't relate to the gifted experience. The performance cliff. The image that came into my mind is like, oh, this is interesting for me. I feel like I've been climbing up the cliff starting in kindergarten. Learning to read was really hard for me. It pulled me out for kind of special support. And my sisters, I would guess they're like, I would guess my oldest sister probably is in the gifted category. Like, they were always put in advanced classes, whereas I wasn't. And so there's this experience of, like, I'm climbing up the cliff. I'm deconstructing as I'm going. I'm figuring out how the heck do I get information into my brain to stick. And then all of a sudden, I, like, look up and I surprised by how high I've gotten. And also people around me are surprised by how high I've gotten. And so there's a very different experience than someone who has a. Like, a cliff. And then. And then all of a sudden, the Support's gone from under them. And so that's the imagery that's been in my mind of like climbing up the cliff, being surprised at how high you get versus the floor just falling from under you. And all of a sudden you like, you didn't even know how high you were. And all of a sudden the like floors gone. Just very different experiences.
- [20:48]
A
That's a really good visual. I'm just picturing you climbing or walking up these like step, step, step, step, step. That's a good visual though. And I think one thing we talked about and this happens a lot for a lot of gifted 2e individuals is if you were like myself in scholastic environments in school, especially as a child and a young teenager and an adolescent, and things came easily to you, you can get overlooked by a lot of different systems and that includes your parenting, your parents and your familial relationships. If it's always like, look how smart you are, look how smart you are, we can leave you alone, you can self parent almost. It almost creates this narrative of like hyper independence, right? And then all of a sudden it's like, whoa, I don't even know how to attune or attach because I've been left alone or isolated for so long because of my scholastic achievement. It's a really weird place to be. And I think a lot of people do get overlooked for those reasons when we attribute so much phrase and in terms of accomplishment and we put so much emphasis on like how much can you achieve or how much can you do? Especially in a capitalist society where we tend to really appreciate grind and hustle culture.
- [22:15]
B
Yeah, I think that async development is so huge. And again, because intelligence is so forward facing and often equates to competency, like people think, okay, this is a competent person because they're intelligent, that these other huge areas of need just get completely overlooked. Emotional needs, even. Like I think about, you know, I love that a few folks touched on like people with physical disabilities and high IQs. I'm also thinking about things like dyspraxia. Like there's you if you have dyspraxia and motor movement's hard, you could be in the 1 percentile around like the ability to move and coordinate your body and in the 99 percentile intellectually. Like that's a complex thing for a body to hold that nuance. So. Absolutely. And I, and I see that like what you're describing as from the kid perspective. I see that from the parenting. When my kids were young, it was really easy to assume they could master other things because they were speaking at such a high verbal age.
- [23:22]
A
Brian. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because in the last episode, I think you probably spoke more about the parenting piece than in a lot of the episodes, and understandably so, because of the guests that we had on. I'm just curious how that was for you to see it through that lens as the parent of two gifted kids.
- [23:41]
B
Yeah, I think it's good. It's good. I'm excited for this series to come out so that my spouse can listen to it and so that we can have more conversations about it. Because, like, I've known that, but I don't think I've put the same level of thought into kind of the implications of that or even teaching my kids about what it means to be 2e or to have a gifted brain. So, yeah, there's definitely. I'm leaving this series with a lot to chew on. Yeah. And it's interesting. It's been like an emotionally complex series for me, if I'm being honest. I think we started the series with I was like, I'm so glad I'm not gifted, which I still stand by that. If you're like, would you rather have a performance cliff or climb up the cliff? I think I'd rather I'm up the cliff. But I have, like, gotten in touch with jealousy, which I actually think is really good. I'm like, oh, I'm glad. I can, like, name that and feel that and also, like, some. Now when I make a mistake, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I've told the world what my IQ is. I've told my community what my IQ is. And before I think it maybe would get encoded as the, like, aloof professor who makes mistakes. And it's like, oh, no, now are they going to be like, oh, well, there's, there's Megan Anna with her, like, you know, 115 IQ making those mistakes. So there's also. I've been realizing my own, like, okay, I do actually have a little bit of insecurity because I'm, I'm around a lot of folks who, like, if we're just talking about IQ as IQ quotient, like, who are more intelligent than me and that section insecurity.
- [25:20]
A
I've.
- [25:20]
B
I've had most of my life, but I've. I've like, revolutionized re got in contact with that discomfort of I'm going to be found out for not being as smart as people perceive me to be. So, yeah, complex emotions for this Series.
- [25:36]
A
Which probably means we, we nailed it. I always feel like whenever we walk away from episodes or series and we're like, wow, that was complex. That was nuanced. That really made me get in touch with a lot of emotion or just thought processes that I think feels like a good job in a lot of ways. Like, it was, it was necessary for us to do. Yeah. Because it wasn't on my radar to do a giftedness series, that's for sure. We thought about until like maybe a month ago, month and a half ago.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. Did it bring. Oh, go ahead. I was just asked. Did it if it brought complex emotions for you?
- [26:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, and also like to give context for those of you listening who maybe didn't pay, you know, haven't followed along. I think I've also just had complex emotions from an emotional standpoint because of the space that I'm in emotionally and mentally because of the hurricane in western North Carolina, because of being displaced in various locations and still trying to like, figure out my own stuff that's happening, you know, and then doing the podcast, it thankfully to you, like saying, like, do you need some distraction while you're doing this? Like, do you need some sense of normalcy?
- [26:55]
B
And.
- [26:55]
A
And I really did, but that meant like a lot. The first couple of episodes I really sat there in like dissociated, complete trauma fugue state where I was just like, I don't even know where I am, honestly. So I was just doing a lot of listening and absorbing in those episodes and it definitely made me reflect. I mean, I thought a lot about childhood experiences, I thought a lot about struggles that I do have. And I've also thought about things that still to this day at 38, come really easily or naturally to me and just trying to hold the space of. I think it's duality there. It's like the both hands, you know, like just constantly reevaluating that and thinking about that and trying to figure out how to be a little gentler on myself about certain things. I'm really hard on myself.
- [27:49]
B
So.
- [27:52]
A
As I get emotional, this series has made me really think about that, about like how I talk to myself and how I treat myself and what I expect from myself. And I think when you go through like, I don't know, a once enough lifetime ecological event, it really makes you step back and think about like, how you take care of yourself and how you nurture yourself and giving yourself some grace and self compassion for like just existing. So it's been a complex journey these last four to five weeks.
- [28:27]
B
Yeah. Like, a complex conversation overlaps a very complex season of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:36]
A
But I'm. I'm. No regrets.
- [28:38]
B
Yeah. It. One thing that's interesting about you, Patrick, and I don't know why this is. Maybe it's. It's partly because we're never in someone else's brain, but for some reason, I wouldn't have guessed that you were as harsh with yourself as you are just from, like, being your friend, having conversations with you. And then I've. You've, like, given me some glimpses into your inner world and like, text threads we've shared, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, damn, he's hard on himself. That sounds like my inner talk to myself. Like, I had no idea Patrick was that as hard on himself. And it's interesting I were the first time I realized how hard your inner monologue, your self talk was. I remember being surprised by that of like, how can Patrick be that hard on himself? Like, what's he have to be? Negative was kind of my initial response.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people feel that way on the outside looking in. You're not the first person to say that this week or the last couple weeks of, like, I didn't realize how hard you were on yourself. But it was also this. Like, I wouldn't have expected that from you because you present in such a way where, like, I think this is a little bit different. Like, where you're really confident or things don't get to you. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, that could not be further from the truth. And I know. I don't think that's what you're saying right now, but, like, that came up too recently, and I was like, oh, my God.
- [30:10]
B
No, there is something. Like, there is. There is something there. But, like, I wouldn't let things get to me. Like, there is a vibe there that I think is maybe it's. Maybe it's part of your mask. And I think that can actually be a common part of our masks is like, I'm so affected by something that my mask is like, that rolls right off.
- [30:34]
A
Yeah.
- [30:34]
B
When actually it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. But are you now I'm, like, chasing for this root line because I've diverged a lot. It was part of the connection that some of your negative self talk is connected to being a 2e kid and the experience.
- [30:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I. I've talked about this a lot. I don't know, probably on this podcast and certainly elsewhere in other platforms. But like I was, you know, single boy growing up, four sisters. She childhood divorce, very traumatic divorce. I was left alone a lot. There was not a lot of attention on me and it was only if I was exceeding expectations or excelling at things. And I learned at that age, like this is how you get attention. You have to excel. Like you have to achieve, you have to accomplish because it's the only way someone's going to pay attention to you. And I hate that part of myself. Like I, I really do. And I think that's been something I've tried to actively like dismantle and deconstruct for years now. And I think I've done a better job of, of that in present day form. But like it certainly led to a lot of internal struggles that I, you know, had a very hard, difficult time with. And also just character, I don't want to say flaws, but maybe that I'm wasn't happy with in terms of who I, who I was or what I cared about. So having really hard to reparent yourself is an interesting experience. As we've talked so much about like ifs on this podcast and you know, doing a lot of the family systems work and some of that stuff, it's, it's heavy but it's worth.
- [32:28]
B
Sounds lonely. Is, is the association that I have and I, I think, I mean I think that's why in a weird turn about way, I think that's why we started this podcast. Patrick, I think this is a area where you and I connect around workaholism and it feels safer to be in our body when our body is in motion than when our body is still. And I want to be perceived for my accomplishments, but I'm also terrified of being perceived as a human. Like, and then we were like, okay, let's start a podcast. Like I don't think we consciously understood any of that was happening, but I do think that's why like we probably started a podcast together so that we could channel our workaholism toward a co creative project.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, I think you're. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that makes a ton of sense and I can, I can do a better job of the workaholism. If I can think about like, does this actually have an impact? Then I feel like I can be easier on myself. Opposed to just like creating or working to achieve something just to achieve it or just to like, you know, like that's why I don't really care that much about the statistics of this podcast minus like trying to ensure you and I eventually make money doing it. But I think in the, in the past I would have cared a lot more about a lot of that stuff. I care more about like the messages we receive, people just sharing that this has been life changing, life saving, life altering, affirming. That's the stuff that matters so much more to me than. Than anything that feels like achievement related in this regard.
- [34:10]
B
And speaking of complexity, like both things can be true, right? Like our work can be channeled toward really meaningful things that align with our values. And the idea of going to hyper independence, productivity achievement as a source of regulation, as a source of kind of faux connection, that can also be true. And so this podcast can also hold the complexity of two people who have sought connection and regulation through busy achievement and it having a very meaningful impact that's aligned with our values.
- [34:51]
A
Yeah, I agree. Couldn't say it better myself. But what happens if we meet each other in Belize in a month and a half and we hit each other? Do we just like publicly say on air that this is over?
- [35:03]
B
Are you worried about that?
- [35:05]
A
I mean, I'm always worried about.
- [35:07]
B
Okay, so who would hate who in this scenario? Who's more likely to hate who getting sweaty?
- [35:14]
A
Oh, man, I don't know. Because you're gonna see me in a very different like, lens in that regard. Like I'm gonna be in like host slash work mode, which I guess I don't think I'm a different human, but I think I'll probably put off a different energy to some degree.
- [35:34]
B
I'm also used to you like one on one or one on two?
- [35:37]
A
That's true.
- [35:38]
B
One on two. That would be a three.
- [35:43]
A
One of.
- [35:44]
B
A conversation with three people.
- [35:46]
A
Yep, one of those.
- [35:49]
B
See, and this is not me being like saying weird things because I'm super smart. This is me just saying weird things.
- [36:00]
A
Yeah, I don't think we're gonna hate each other. I do. You know, you just mentioned like you're worried about being perceived social media following, whatever else. I'm always worried about being perceived. I feel like my. For both of us, I feel like a lot of our existence is being concerned about how we're being perceived or, or reading it incorrectly or picking up on an enormous exorbitant amount of energy on it and putting an enormous amount of mental energy into it. And I think that's always on my mind. So like, I think meeting like you in person, that feels like I'm excited, I'm Definitely excited. I'm also nervous.
- [36:41]
B
I don't think I've ever had, like, a connection this deep with someone I've not met in person before like this. So that'll be.
- [36:47]
A
It's come from, right?
- [36:49]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And aren't there, like. I mean, I know that this is explicit to, like, romantic, but I would think for any kind of just dynamic, aren't there, like, you're. You're either, like, drawn to or repelled by a person's like. What's the word? It starts with a P. Pheromones. Pheromones. Like, and so maybe, like, are in real life. Pheromones are like sensory opposites and we will, like, sensory repel each other.
- [37:22]
A
Right. And we're gonna, like, know immediately. Like, or like, oh, yeah.
- [37:28]
B
Like, just like. Oh. Being around you in real life gives me the ick. We need to go back to podcasting. From across the states.
- [37:37]
A
We have diverged mightily into.
- [37:40]
B
From giftedness to ick and pheromones.
- [37:46]
A
And three person conversations.
- [37:48]
B
So we're two on one.
- [37:51]
A
Stay tuned, y'.
- [37:52]
B
All.
- [37:52]
A
Like, we'll. We will let you know in real time. Maybe we'll even make a post like, we don't like each other. I don't know what to say. Here it is. No, I hope.
- [38:01]
B
Will you tell me if you don't like me?
- [38:02]
A
Yeah, I will. I mean, people ask, gosh, people are like, will you tell me if. If you don't like me at one of these events? And I'm like, but you paid to be there. Am I supposed to tell you that? I think people can often tell. I mean, and I'm. Be very honest. If you're listening and you've come to my events or you're thinking about it, I think you can tell. And I, I can't hide it. My business partner probably does not appreciate it about me, but it's not a secret. And I hate to say that publicly, but that's just the reality. So, Jessica Hogan, if you're listening, I don't hate you. You don't hate me. We've cleared the air on that. That's wonderful. But, yeah, no, I. I think you'll be able to tell pretty, pretty quickly.
- [38:49]
B
Okay, well, that'll be an uncomfortable week if, like, we meet each other and it's just like.
- [38:56]
A
I don't. I don't think that's gonna happen. You know, I think there's always gonna be, like, awkward, weird social moments. That. That's just reality in these situations, you know? So he's like also we meet in the airport and I'm like, do we high five? Do we fist bump? Do I.
- [39:10]
B
We don't hug. Let's clear that up.
- [39:12]
A
We don't hug. And that's, that's a thing for me as the host to like navigate with each person who has paid to come on this event. A lot of people approach me and I never know what to do. And I always look at them like this.
- [39:25]
B
You need like a retreat, A retreat greeting that's like uniquely Patrick. And I would suggest like a fist bump, like a solid fist bump.
- [39:33]
A
And they're like. And I'm like. Then you're like fist bumping. But they're got their arms out like this and just look at each other and it's just. It's weird.
- [39:42]
B
Yeah, no, that is weird.
- [39:45]
A
Good.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah. I just assumed that a hug would not be desired. I usually, I usually, yeah, I will sometimes hug, but I. It's rare. I usually. Yeah, don't, don't prefer the hug. I will also be getting off a red eye and won't have like slept, so I'll be zombie.
- [40:06]
A
That's true, that's true. But anyway, well, stay tuned for all of this and more, I think. Yeah, I've got to get ready for this meeting actually. So.
- [40:25]
B
Transitions, transitions, Transitions are hard. So we are wrapping up the series and you can like download, subscribe, do all the good stuff if you like.
- [40:38]
A
Behind me. Just want you to know, Chrisa, your feedback was taken seriously and guess what? You can now see what this painting is of. So thank you for that and to everyone listening, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like download, subscribe and share. Goodbye.
- [41:07]
B
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extra extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com it's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.