Sandra Lison Part 1 of 2

Summary

DNA: ID – The Case of Sandra Lyson, Part 1 (March 23, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode of DNA: ID delves into the 1987 cold case of Sandra Lyson, a bartender in Green Bay, Wisconsin, whose disappearance and subsequent murder remained unsolved for decades. Through investigative detail, the host examines the circumstances of Sandra's vanishing, the extensive police investigation, and the myriad suspects, with a focus on the human side of the story. The episode raises not just the "who," but also the "why" behind the crime, setting the scene for the eventual role of genetic genealogy in the case’s development.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery of Sandra’s Disappearance

• Early Morning at the Bar (02:07–06:50)
  • Sandra Lyson, head bartender at the Good Times Bar in Green Bay, vanishes after her Sunday night shift.
  • Her car, cigarettes (she was a notorious chain smoker), coin purse, and several closing duties are left undone—highly uncharacteristic for Sandra.
  • Around $2,600 is missing from the safe.
  • Her teenage daughter, Kathy, and younger daughter, Tiffany, are immediately concerned, echoing the sentiment:

    “She would never just up and leave.” – Investigator recounting family and friends’ reactions (03:50)

• Police take the disappearance seriously from the start, immediately launching a full-scale investigation.

2. Painting a Picture of Sandra Lyson

• Victimology and Personal Background (06:51–10:40)

  • Born in 1943, devoted single mother of two, described as honest, organized, and a rule-follower.
  • Worked to support her daughters, lived frugally, and avoided relationships after negative experiences.
  • Friends and family emphatically reject the notion that Sandra took the cash or left willingly.

• Close Relationships (10:41–12:59)

  • Best friend Ginny B:

    “She was organized, a planner … very honest. Would never steal that money from the safe.” (07:00)

  • Neighbor Sue D:

    “Sandra must have been taken out of the bar at gunpoint because she would never leave her cigarettes behind or leave without taking her car.” (09:15)

  • Car, cigarettes, and purse all play significant roles in reconstructing the event timeline and habits.

3. Bar Details and Night of Disappearance

• The Good Times Bar (13:00–14:29)

  • Blue-collar crowd, open from 8AM–2AM with long-time regulars.
  • Sandra worked Sunday nights under the table to maintain welfare benefits.
  • Owner Judy:

    “She was a very good personal friend...a very reliable worker...devoted mother whose girls came first.”

• Closing Night Timeline (18:37–19:45, see also 38:09–42:31 for closing details)

  • Multiple regulars and a few unknown patrons present.
  • Duke Jocelyn, a close friend and unofficial employee, observes key moments:
    • Two men buy beer (11:40PM), one later calls and threatens Sandra over the phone.
    • At closing (1:45AM), an unfamiliar couple and an unidentified lone man remain in the bar.
    • Duke leaves, seeing a small, bright red compact car parked behind the bar.

4. The Initial Investigation & Key Suspects

• Unfolding the Investigation (14:30–20:57)

  • Police canvass the neighborhood, collect evidence, and note all out-of-place observations.
  • Dorothy, a neighbor, did not see Sandra leave, even though she watched the bar from 1:50 to 3:00AM.

• Red Car Lead (16:39, 18:37, 35:24, 53:37)

  • Multiple witnesses recall a mysterious red car in the bar lot; later, focus briefly shifts to a station wagon seen near the dump site.

• Bloody Hands Incident (19:46–20:57)

  • Two teens in a red Datsun stop at a gas station with apparent blood on car and clothes.
  • Cleared after it's discovered one was injured breaking windows in a separate act of vandalism.

5. Discovery of Sandra’s Body

• Body Found in Forest (29:06–41:24)

  • On August 4, 1987, Sandra’s body is discovered in Machicani Forest, Oconto County—25 miles from Green Bay.

  • She is found face-up, partially dressed, showing signs of beating, possible sexual assault, and strangulation.

  • Key findings from the autopsy:

    • Bruises, strangulation, presence of semen; redressing suggests possible hope given to victim before her death.

    • “The autopsy report said there was a 75% probability that Sandra had sex within 24 hours prior to her death.” (35:51)

  • Notable quote from Sandra's sister-in-law Marilyn:

    “It was just a real tragic happening is what it was…We now have two children without a mother. It’s extremely senseless.” (39:15)

6. Expanding the Suspect Pool

• Focus on Last Bar Patrons and Residents (42:28–56:58)

  • Police seek identities of three people left at closing: a couple (later identified and cleared) and one solitary man (never identified).
  • Composite sketches released, descriptions circulated, tips flood in with little success.

• Scrutiny of Regulars and Local Suspects (58:31–70:00)

  • Several men, including ex-boyfriends, those banned from the bar, and men with grievances, are investigated and ruled out.
  • Special focus on "Bozo" (Thomas S.), who had a history with Sandra but appears to have an alibi.

• Physical Evidence (56:59–60:00)

  • Fingerprints on the bar’s glassware and cigar boxes, most matched except one partial latent print on a glass and two on cigar boxes.

7. Discovery of Purse and Long-Term Impacts

• Purse Found in 1991 (70:00–71:39)
  • Four years later, Sandra's beige vinyl purse, presumed to have been taken by her abductor, is found miles from where her body was discovered, spurring a renewed wave of tips and a new focus for the investigation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sandra’s Character:

  “She was a very upbeat person but also a rule follower, someone who was organized and a planner. She was very honest and would never steal that money from the safe.” – Friend Ginny B. (07:00)

• On The Nature of the Crime:

  “Sandra must have been taken out of the bar at gunpoint because she would never leave her cigarettes behind or leave without taking her car.” – Neighbor Sue D. (09:15)

• Regarding Suspect Threats:

  “I was pretty well under at the time… it’s possible I may have said something about blowing the place apart, but talk is cheap and I’d been drinking all day.” – David Binz, suspect (31:00)

• Police Realism:

  “This case is going to be around a while, I can tell you that. Unless someone stands in the middle of the highway and yells, ‘I killed her.’” – Oconto County Coroner Robert Wardecki (40:00)

• Family Grief and Resilience:

  “We now have two children without a mother. It’s extremely senseless, and I hope they find him… The little one doesn’t quite understand, although I’m sure she knows it all happened. But I think it’s harder on Kathy. She’s going to be 16. She’s really an adult almost, so the understanding is there. It’s going to be hard, but we’ll get by.” – Marilyn McAllister, sister-in-law (39:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Content | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:07–06:50 | Initial discovery of Sandra’s disappearance | | 06:51–12:59 | Sandra’s background, friends, character portraits | | 13:00–14:29 | The atmosphere and business of the Good Times Bar | | 18:37–19:45 | Night of disappearance, key witnesses, closing time | | 19:46–20:57 | The “bloody hands” incident and false lead | | 29:06–41:24 | Discovery of the body, forensic findings, family notified | | 53:37–56:58 | Composite sketches, bar patrons, last customer(s) | | 58:31–70:00 | Scrutiny of suspect pool, “Bozo” and others, FBI profile | | 70:00–71:39 | 1991 discovery of Sandra’s purse, renewed hope |

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Episode Structure and Tone

• Language/Tone: Factual, compassionate, highly detailed, sometimes conversational (“…drunk men sometimes need to be treated like children anyway.”)
• Approach: Focuses on methodical police work, humanizes the victim, stresses community and family impact, and keeps a keen eye on both forensic evidence and the broader why of the crime.

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Conclusion

End of Part 1:
The investigation into Sandra Lyson’s murder remained unsolved for years, characterized by diligent detective work, strong community involvement, and a haunting lack of closure. The episode closes with the discovery of Sandra’s long-missing purse in 1991, renewing hope for answers and setting up Part 2, which promises a focus on the case’s genetic genealogy breakthrough.

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“This is the end of part one of the Case of Sandra Lyson. Part two is available right now.” (71:39)

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Transcript

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Sam.

[Investigator/Reporter]

It was 1987. Judy Wykoff was really concerned. She was the owner of the Good Times Bar in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Judy typically opened the bar for business at 8 in the morning, but the first one there religiously arriving at 5:30am Daily, was her cleaner, Robert M. It was Robert's job to get the bar ready for the day's business. When Judy arrived at the good times around 7 Monday morning, August 3rd, Robert said, I was just going to call you when I got here. The safe was open and there was no money in it. The previous night, Sunday, the bar closer was Judy's close friend and head bartender, Sandra Lyson. She knew for a fact that Sandra was tending bar on Sunday night as she'd spoken with her on the phone from the bar twice as after closing time 2am Sandra typically cleaned the bar, rang up all the totals in the till, put all the money in the safe, restocked the coolers from the stores in the stockroom, flipped the Closed Open sign and locked up and shut off the lights on her way out. None of that stuff had been done when Robert arrived. All the bar and bathroom lights were on. Two dirty drinking glasses remained on the bar, one beer mug and one highball. Four other unwashed glasses were on the back of the bar. Even more unusual, Sandra's car was still in the parking lot outside the bar and Sandra's Coin purse containing change and $6 in bills and her maroon cigarette case containing her Marlboro Light 1000s and lighter were sitting on the back bar. Sandra was a chain smoker and did not go anywhere without her cigs. But there was no sign of her and no indication as to where she might have gone. This was all unprecedented, perplexing and very worrisome. But there was more. After inventorying the receipts from the night of August 2, Judy noted that $2,087 of the weekend's cash receipts were missing. The total amount after final count turned out later to be closer to $2,600. Judy called Sandra's house and her 15 year old daughter Kathleen picked up. She said her mother never came home the previous night and she and her 8 year old sister hadn't heard from her. They too were upset and worried. Judy called the police. At 7:25am Green Bay Police Officer Tokterman responded to the Good Times Bar at 1332 South Broadway and found Judy. After gathering the details from her about Sandra being missing in action, the officer filed a missing person's report on the missing bartender. Both Judy and Sandra's daughters said their mother would never just up and leave. And given the fact that Sandra had vanished with no explanation, then there was a bunch of cash missing. The police took their concerns very seriously. A full scale investigation began immediately. So who was Sandra? Sandra Joan McAllister was born June 20, 1943 to parents Ward and Lois McAllister. She had two siblings, an older sister Nancy and younger brother David. She grew up on a Shiloh Road farm and attended the public high school in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, graduating in 1961. Then she moved to Green Bay and attended NWTI for two years, earning an associate degree in accounting. She then worked for Larson Canning Corporation for nine years, but then was either downsized or laid off. Sandra had two daughters at the time of her disappearance, Kathy, age 15 and Tiffany, age 8. Kathy was the product of Sandra's marriage to her now ex husband Robert Lyson. The two had married in 1964 and divorced in 1972. Tiffany had a different father. He was reportedly a married man whose identity was known only to Sandra. Sandra lived for her girls, according to those who knew her. The three lived in apartment F at 2032 August street in Green Bay. Investigators interviewed a lot of Sandra's close friends trying to figure out where she might have gone. She had met her best friend Ginny B. Years earlier when they were both enrolled at NWTI and they still met regularly to play cribbage and catch up. Janie characterized Sandra as a very upbeat person but also a rule follower, someone who was organized and a planner. She was very honest and would never steal that money from the safe. She was very close with her daughters and would do anything for them. She worked at the bar to support her girls and she was excited that she'd just been awarded a loan to continue her education at University of Wisconsin Green Bay studying psychology Sandra didn't really drink and she didn't date. She was kind of over men after being burned in her marriage, failed at dating and been exposed to creeps and drunks in the bar she tended. When she wanted to socialize, she generally went to a local pancake house with women from her apartment complex or she met Ginny at Paul's Lounge. Police also spoke numerous times with Sandra's close friend of 10 years, her neighbor Sue Dee. They hung out all the time as they lived right next door and both had kids. They often got coffee or shopped for their kids at Kmart or Kohl's. Sue said Sandra was a generous and caring woman who was very devoted to her daughters, sacrificing so they could do the activities they wanted. She was always sure to be home both when they left for school and when they got home. According to Sue, Sandra had nothing good to say about her former husband, Robert. They only spoke one or two times a year and it was just about logistics for their shared daughter. Sue said Sandra was a homebody who didn't drink much and just drank once in a while when they went out, but she was a chain smoker who always had a lit cigarette and carried two packs of cigarettes in her purse at all times. Speaking of her purse, she always carried the same shoulder bag. It was beige vinyl with a pastel fabric pattern and it was always packed very full. Sue said Sandra must have been taken out of the bar at gunpoint because she would never leave her cigarettes behind or leave without taking her car. Sue echoed that Sandra was scrupulously honest, but money was very tight and she lived very frugally, hunting for bargains. She was the kind of woman who got her hair done for free at the local hairdressing school and painted her own car to clean it up and hide the rusty she was industrious, creative, self sufficient and very independent. One thing about Sandra that numerous friends said that was important she always preferred to drive herself places. She never wanted to feel beholden to anyone else and preferred to be in control of her own movements and to be able to come and go without having to rely on anyone. But she had left her car in the bar's back parking lot. Sue maintained that despite money being in short supply for Sandra, she would absolutely never steal. She believed in being a good example for her daughters. Sue and everyone else, including Judy the bar owner, were adamant that it was out of the question that Sandra had stolen the money that was missing from the bar. Police interviewed Judy, the bar owner, multiple times in lengthy interviews. Her bar, the Good Times, catered to a decidedly blue collar crowd. Patrons were generally truckers and manufacturing or construction workers. It was open every day from 8am to 2am the bar was known for being a regular haunt for many and a fun place with daily dice games, a contests and a computer poker machine that was well known for paying out. Judy told the investigators that Sandra was a very good personal friend of hers and had been for 23 years. Sandra was in Judy's wedding to her husband Glenn, with whom she was also close. Sandra had worked as the Sunday night bartender at the Good Times bar for four years. But she didn't tell anyone she was bartending because she didn't want to jeopardize the welfare check she relied on to help provide for her kids. It sounds to me like Sandra wasn't getting financial help from either of her children's fathers and she had to do what she had to do to make ends meet. The under the table money she brought in for closing the bar on Sunday nights was crucial to her bottom line. Judy said that behind the bar Sandra was very professional and capable and could handle any situation that arose. She was a very reliable worker who trained all the new bartenders. She also had a sense of fun and would give out free drink chits to the customers even though Judy would yell at her good naturedly. And Judy echoed that Sandra was a very devoted mother whose girls came first. On Monday, with the investigation into Sandra being missing just ramping up, Detectives Arendt and Stino went to Sandra's house and spoke with her 15 year old daughter Kathy, who was home alone. She confirmed that on the one night a week when her mother closed the bar, she always came home or called if she was going out for coffee afterward. It was very strange that she hadn't heard from her. Kathy said there was only one other time her mom hadn't come home and it was when her car broke down. It so happened that Sandra's younger daughter Tiffany was staying with a woman named Paula for the weekend. Paula was a good friend of Sandra's who told Detective Steno she was Very shook up by this turn of events. Going missing was not like Sandra at all. Paula had known Sandra for three years. They met while living in August Street Apartments. Paula said when Sandra didn't come home, she called the bar and and Judy told her Sandra was missing. Paula kept Tiffany and awaited word about the whereabouts of her friend. Detectives tracked down Sandra's brother, David McAllister of Sturgeon Bay. David was just as perplexed as everyone else as to where Sandra could be. It was unheard of for Sandra to just vanish. David assured the detective he and his wife would take care of Sandra's girls if it came to that. Next, Detective Arendt interviewed Sandra's ex husband, Robert. He said that Sunday, August 2nd was his birthday and there was a family party at his house that his daughter Kathy had attended. He drove her home around 6:30pm so she could see her mom and take care of her little sister while Sandra went to work at the bar. He apparently didn't know that Tiffany was at Paula's house for the weekend. He didn't go inside, so he never saw Sandra. Robert said that after he dropped his daughter off, he went home and stayed there for the night. His mother and sisters who lived with him confirmed his alibi to the police. Robert maintained he had no bad blood with Sandra, but they had very little contact for more than a decade other than to discuss their daughter's welfare. Green Bay investigators asked Sandra's brother David and his wife Marilyn to look through Sandra's apartment for clues. They found her contact lenses, which meant she was wearing her glasses when she went to work. And they confirmed that Sandra's cloth purse was missing. Inside, it would have been spending money, her billfold, her checkbook and credit cards. David and Marilyn took Sandra's girls into their home and there they stayed. When they were done gathering the basic information about Sandra, Detectives Stino and Arendt proceeded to the bar. An inventory of the bar and parking lot noted that Sandra's coin purse and cigarettes were on the bar. But her cloth shoulder bag, which she always stowed in a cabinet at the bar, was gone. Remember, it had not been found at her apartment. Sandra's 1976 Chevy Nova was parked behind the bar. It was locked. Detectives had it towed to the police lot and searched it and found nothing unusual at all. Several items were collected from the bar for latent print analysis. These included the two drinking glasses that had been found on the bar by cleaner Robert M. He had moved them and put them with four other unwashed glasses, two beer and two highball. That were found by the rinse tanks. All six were collected. Two cigar boxes from the cabinet behind the bar that usually contained ready cash were notably empty, so those were collected too. Sandra's coin purse and cigarette case were taken into evidence, as were a Newport cigarette pack from the outside sidewalk, a Miller beer can from the northeast corner of the building, and a plastic glass from the wall outside the south side of the bar. Detective Stino and Aaron spoke with Judy about the missing money. She said that after she closed up the bar, Sandra did not count the money in the till and cigar boxes. She just put it in a money bag and put it in the safe to which she did not know the combination. It was left open for her. She would deposit the bag, close the safe and spin the dial. No one believed that Sandra would have absconded with that cash and she was unknown to ever leave dirty glasses on the bar at closing, not to mention the lights on and all the other things undone. Detectives canvassed the neighborhood surrounding the Good Times. The bar was and remains a weirdly out of context little brick box of a building on an otherwise completely residential block. Homes on the block back right up to the bar, making it very likely that neighbors might have some information. Sergeant Steno spoke with a woman who lived in the house adjacent to the bar named Dorothy, who was a friend of Sandra's. The two often grabbed a coffee after Sandra closed up the bar. Clearly, Dorothy was a night owl because Sandra did not usually finish her duties at the bar until 2:15 in the morning. Dorothy's bedroom window faced the bar parking lot, so she always saw Sandra when she was leaving for the night. On this night, Dorothy watched the parking lot observing the comings and goings consistently between 1:50am and 3. And she never saw the interior bar lights go out and she never saw Sandra leave. She finally fell asleep at 3. She said, what the heck? What had happened to Sandra that prevented her from closing up the bar? And where did she go? Guys, today I have a message about Thrive Market. Why Thrive? Because it's become indispensable in my household and I think it will in yours as well. If you're as particular as I am about what foods your family eats and the products they consume, then Thrive Market is for you. Thrive Market is a membership based grocery service that offers more than 5,000 organic and non GMO grocery products. Not just food, but also cleaning, pet and personal care products. 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[Investigator/Reporter]

Green Bay Police Inspector Cletus Alexander interviewed a man who lived adjacent to the Good Times Nick named Stanley J. He said that on the night of August two to three, around two in the morning, he led his dog out the back door where he had a good view of the back door of the Good Times bar. He noticed there was a mid sized red car parked in the lot. It was about three or four spots from the rear door. There were no other cars there. When his wife looked out a little later between 2:30 and 2:45, the red car was still there. At 6:30am it was gone. It was clear to detectives pretty quickly that Sandra had not likely left the barn of her own accord. Yes, her purse was missing and yes, money was missing, but her car and cigarettes were still there. And Sandra up and leaving with someone just did not mesh at all with the understanding detectives had gathered of who Sandra was as a person and what her priorities were. She was a 44 year old, devoted and hard working single mother. She was not going to rip off the bar and take off with some dude on a whim. No, something happened to her and someone else was likely responsible. But who, worried about the possible abduction of a popular female bartender from a downtown Green Bay drinking establishment, rocketed through the city. And very quickly what sounded like a promising, albeit concerning lead came in. Investigators learned from a Paul Schultz, the night worker at the Dino Stop, bar, truck stop and gas station, that at 3:40 in the morning on the night of Sunday, August 2nd to Monday, August 3rd, a guy with bloody hands had asked to use the bathroom after bar closing. This might be confusing to listeners that the gas station also had a bar, but one thing I learned living in Wisconsin for two years is that there's pretty much a bar everywhere. CVS in Wisconsin has a full liquor section. It's kind of awesome. Anyway, the night worker at the Dino stop named Paul said two young guys driving a small red Datsun type station wagon with dealer license plate stopped and bought $2 worth of gas. One of the guys was quite bloody. He cleaned up in the bathroom and the two spent some time using the squeegees with water from the gas station buckets on the islands to clean what Paul believed was blood from the exterior of the car. A truck driver who had been fueling up at the time also noticed the pair cleaning blood off the car and commented to Paul about it. Detectives identified him from the gas purchase records as Richard Peterson of De Pere. He told Sergeant Stino that as he was gassing up, a small red Datsun wagon pulled into the island area and he heard the guys in the car say something like we've got to get this blood off the car. He saw what appeared to be blood running down the driver's side door because Paul had been paying attention and gotten the license plate number of the Datsun, which was a dealer tag. The investigators quickly tracked down the car to Valley Auto Sales in Appleton. After several interviews, they learned that the teen son of the owner of the car dealer had borrowed one of his dad's inventory vehicles that night and and he and his buddy had driven to Shawano. The kid's mother told Detective Zettle that the boys were supposed to be home by Midnight, but didn't get home until 5 in the morning. But any possible connection to the disappearance of Sandra Lyson went up in smoke when it turned out that one of the boys had cut himself after vandalizing a home by breaking some windows and he'd bled all over the inside of the car and all his sweatpants. The little hoodlum was able to show the cuts, produce the bloody bandages and show a speeding ticket the two got on Highway 55 that night. After all that work, Sergeants Arendt and Pampering concluded that the two boys were uninvolved in Sandra's case and they were back to square one. The detectives checked with the local cab companies to see if any of them had driven Sandra away from the bar. But no pickups had occurred around the 1300 block of South Broadway around bar closing time. Green Bay police calls that night were nowhere near the bar either. And the State Patrol had not made any traffic stops that were deemed relevant. The Green Bay Police Department's Captain Lawrence notified Sandra's credit card companies and credit union to notify them if anyone attempted to use her cards, cash checks or access her account. On the third K9, Officer Mastelier was called in by Lieutenant Will Kett. They met at the bar and gave the dog an item of Sandra's to sniff. Then they walked the dog through the wooded areas north of Lombardy to Liberty between Ashland and Broadway. Then they searched the area north of Fort Howard Paper from Broadway to the river and north to 7th Street. They also searched the wooded area west of LCL Transit. The dog did not hit on anything. Patrol officers searched the whole area surrounding the bar on foot. They checked out abandoned houses, empty lots and wooded areas. They looked in all areas containing brushy overgrowth where a body or personal items could be disposed of. They checked dumpsters, fields, woods, the train tracks and all areas along the fox river from 7th street to Lombardy and and from the Fox river to Ashland. Nothing. Sandra had vanished into thin air. On the 4th, they were still at it. Officer Torman was requested by the detective division to canvas the area by stopping into area businesses. He spoke to some witnesses who had been down the street from the Good Times bar on Sunday night. Beverly, Danny and Andy from the nearby Packer Stadium bar drove by the good times around 2:10am on Monday. They noted all the lights were on inside the bar non and the drapes were open, but nobody was inside. Usually they could see someone behind the bar cleaning up, but tonight there was no movement inside at all. And then the police talked to Duke Detectives Steno and Captain Thomas Hinz took the lengthy statement of a man named Harlan Joslin who went by Duke. Duke and his wife were close with both bar owner Judy and with Sandra. And Duke was a sort of unofficial employee of the Good Times Bar who was at the bar that Sunday night. He often sat at the bar and chatted with Sandra as she worked. And he knew pretty much everyone who frequented the Good Times. He told the detectives he and his wife thought the world of Sandra. He confirmed what others had said. She didn't really drink, she didn't permit swearing in the bar. She ran a tight ship at home. She lived for her kids and had no current boyfriend. She said she didn't need a man and she had enough shit with her ex husband. Duke and his wife often went for coffee with Sandra on Sunday nights after she closed the bar. But on the Sunday night she disappeared. Sandra was planning on going straight home because she had to take her girls to ballet class early on Monday morning. As we know, she did not go home on Sunday night. Duke got to the bar around 11pm and said there were about 12 people, mostly regulars in the bar. He was able to name a bunch of them for the investigators, Steve C. Gordy m. And his two friends, Monica and Eric. Then around 11:40pm two white males came in and requested a case of Miller beer. Sandra told them, I don't have a case, but I can sell you four six packs. So she handed them four six packs and collected $14 in cash for the Miller. One of the men also bought a pack of cigarettes from the machine. He then left out the back door, following his companion outside with the beer. About 10 minutes later, the bar phone rang and Sandra answered it. She talked angrily on the phone for 3:30 seconds and slammed it down. Duke asked her what was going on and she told him it was the guy that bought the beer. And he was bitching about being overcharged, calling her names and even saying, I'm coming down to blow that joint away. Duke described the guy that bought the beer and did the talking as about 6ft tall, a slim white male in his early to mid-30s. The other guy was of the same description, but his hair had a reddish tint and he had a red, ruddy complexion. Sandra knew both of the men but did not mention their names to Duke. Duke decided to stick around the bar for a little while to make sure that the guy on the phone did not make good on his promise to blow up the good times. Then around 12:15, he left and went to the nearby Packers Stadium bar. He stayed there until 1:10 and then he went back to the good times. When he got there, there were only three patrons remaining in the bar. Sitting at the bar was a guy about 40 years old, with graying brown hair and possibly a small mustache. He was about 5 foot 10, of average build, wearing working men's clothes, a shirt and pants of different colors. Duke had seen this guy in the bar before but didn't know who he was. Two other patrons remained an apparent couple. The guy was age 25 to 30, had a beard, long, bushy dark hair and was of undetermined height because he remained on the bar stool while his girlfriend or wife was playing the poker machines. She was in her mid-20s, was short and stocky and had shorter, dirty blond hair. Notably, she had a small tattoo of a cross A on her upper left arm. Both kept to themselves but seemed friendly enough and there were no problems. Closing time approached at 1:45. Sandra shut the switches off, locked the doors from the inside so people could leave but no one could enter, and flipped the open closed sign. The couple said, I guess we better go. And Sandra said, no rush. They could finish their drinks. It was only 1:45. The bar clock, which said two clock, was set ahead. The guy picked up his change off the bar and it seemed to Duke that the two were fixing to leave. Before leaving, Duke asked Sandra if she would be okay on her own. He was still nervous about the guys who had called and threatened her. She said she was fine. She was used to closing up alone. She started stacking the coasters and wiping down the bar. Duke knew she would never let anyone in after she had locked the door. It was bar policy. She had once refused to open the door, even for a regular patron she knew well who had run out of gas and wanted to use the phone. Police tracked this guy, Leo Jackson, down and eliminated him. So Duke said goodnight to Sandra and left. The good times. At 1:45, the unidentified couple was about to leave, and the only other person in the bar was the one guy sitting on the left side of the bar. L When Duke walked out to the parking lot, the only car he saw was a small, bright red compact car parked next to Sandra's. The car had what he described as a short or chopped off back. Duke was reinterviewed countless times. He was ruled out as a suspect in Sandra's disappearance. After giving head and pubic hair samples and a saliva sample, as well as finger and palm prints. Police confirmed with his wife that he had gotten home at 2am on Monday morning, she was still up and got up to unlock the door for him. So if Duke was being truthful, his three nuggets of information were very, very important. 1. That there were three people in the bar when he left besides Sandra, a young couple and an unidentified man. Two that a small red car was parked behind the bar right near Sandra's car and three that a man had called the bar and threatened to blow up the place and cuss Sandra out just hours before she vanished.

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[Megan McCardell]

n D Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCardell and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

[Expert/Commentator]

It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are.

[Investigator/Reporter]

You know, I am a believer in

[Narrator/Host]

America and it's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

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[Investigator/Reporter]

Investigators were determined to learn the identities of the three people in the good times at 1.45am on Sunday night or Monday morning, they felt that they held the key to what had happened to Sandra. Using Duke's detailed description of the couple, the Green Bay investigators released a statement describing the young couple they were seeking, including that the woman had a tattoo of a cross on her upper arm. They disseminated this release to the media and started to collect tips on hundreds of women with cross tattoos from all over the state. The investigators also worked with Duke on two very detailed sketches. One was a drawing done by him of the interior of the Good Times, labeled by with names and where everyone was sitting or positioned in the bar that night. The other was the man he saw sitting at the bar L. While the investigators were trying to track down these unidentified people who closed down the bar that night, an early person of interest emerged. Almost incidentally, this part is crucially important. So Soak it in in his neighborhood canvas, Officer Tochterman noted a number of empty Miller beer cans in front of a house at 1401 South Meeple, less than two blocks from the Good Times Bar. Remember that Miller was the brand of beer purchased by the person who had called and threatened Sandra. Overheard by Duke, the officer knocked on the door and spoke with 32 year old resident David Binz. Upon being questioned about the beer cans, David admitted that he was the person that had called the Good Times Bar and complained to the bartender about the cost of the four six packs of Miller that his brother and his brother's roommate had purchased from her. David said that on Sunday, August 2, he and his brother Robert and Robert's buddy Vince had been partying all day along with David's live in girlfriend Barbara and some guy named Phil. This was at David and Barbara's house. They ran out of beer and David gave his brother $15 to get a case of beer and a pack of cigarettes. Then he drove Robert and Vince to the Good Times and waited in the car while they went in. We know from Duke's report that this happened at 11:45pm they came out with a beer and told David what they spent and he got pissed off. Apparently a case price would have been a little bit less than the price Sandra charged for the four six packs. When he got home, David called the bar around midnight and said what the hell is this shit? $14 for a case of beer. He couldn't remember the response of the female bartender, but he claimed to have then hung up and in his statement to the officer omitted the part about threatening to blow up the bar. When pressed, David said, quote, I was pretty well under at the time, meaning presumably that he was drunk. He said, it's possible I may have said something about blowing the place apart, but talk is cheap and I'd been drinking all day. David said they drank the beer and he passed out on the couch and Bob and Vince left and went home. Then Officer tochterman went to 1225 South Chestnut and talked to Robert, Vince and Vince. Robert said he was the one who went to the bar and bought the beer, but he couldn't remember who he was with. Vince said he wasn't at the Good Times that night, but he did fit the description of the person who was with Robert. And Tochterman wrote in his report, it is the feeling of this writer that he was there. Vince later told Sergeant LaPlante that that night Robert Vince went to the Good Times Bar to buy some beer and they drank it at David's. David called the bar and after that he and Robert left David's at 1:30 and walked to Robert's apartment two blocks away. They went to bed. Vince was very cooperative and agreed to take a polygraph. Robert was interviewed by Sergeant Hamilton. He told the same story as Vince. David drove them to the bar. They bought the beer. They went home to David's house and David called the bar and yelled at the bartender. They drank the beer and then he and Vince went back to Robert's house and went to bed. Robert, David and Vince were just three of the hundreds of people talked to. In the early days of the investigation. The investigators learned that Robert and David were well known at the Good Times Bar and David had earned the moniker there, Crazy Dave. But there was absolutely no indication that he had actually made good on his threat to Sandra. Green Bay Deputy Police Chief Robert Langan answered media questions about the threatening phone call made to the bar on the night Sandra disappeared. He told the AP the resorts of a threat were checked out and the men who made the threat were questioned. He said, quote, the threat has been discussed, but it has not led us any further. We're looking at it like it was probably a drunken threat. I hate to write it off because tomorrow it may turn out to be the biggest thing in the world. So we're not discounting it, but we're looking at it as probably a drunken threat, end quote. Police kind of moved on from the drunken threat. Despite the harassing phone call, there was nothing that made the Vince brothers or their buddy Vince stand out in a possible suspect pool. And the investigators had a lot of other very solid leads to pursue. Just one Postscript here. On September 2, 1987, an anonymous tip was called in from someone at the Terminal Bar that said Crazy Dave killed Sandra and he was bragging about it and telling people not to say anything. A remarkable amount of police work was done in the very early hours of this investigation. Scores of Green Bay detectives and officers spent August 3rd and some of August 4th conducting all these searches, interviews and canvases. Sandra remained missing and did not get in contact with her girls. And the clock was ticking away the hour since she had last been heard from. I can't imagine how scared and terrified her girls must have been while they waited for the phone to ring. Then there was news. At 5pm on Tuesday, August 4, Inspector Taylor of the Green Bay police learned that the Oconto county sheriff had found a body in their county. The description of the body resembled the description of Sandra, a Heavyset White woman, 40 years of age, wearing a white dress. The body was found in the woods 25 miles north of Green Bay. What had happened was a young couple had rented horses from the public stable in the Machicani Forest about a mile and a half from U.S. highway 141. Around 3:45pm they rode along a trail in the woods and found the body of a woman lying off the trail. They came galloping back. The female half of the couple in particular said to be shaken up. The sheriff's office had been called, had responded and noted the BOLO from the nearby county. Green Bay Inspector Taylor and and Sergeant Zettel immediately left Green Bay to go to the scene in the Machikani Forest. Oconto Sheriff Kenneth Woodworth brought them to the location of the body about 40 yards from Stiles Tower Road, which runs from Highway 141 to a fire tower. Oconto Sheriff Kenneth Woodworth brought them to the location of the body about 40 yards from Stiles Tower Road, which runs from Highway 141 to the fire tower. Walking from the fire tower along a trail, they could see the white dress approximately 25 yards east of the trail. The woman lay on the ground face up. Her long white dress was disheveled looking with dirt, leaves and pine needles on it. Her underwear was partially removed. Blood trickled from her split lip. It was immediately suspected that the dead woman had been murdered. Although no weapon was found, the Oconto county deputies roped off the scene as well as an area leading to it where footprints were visible on a dirt road leading into the woods. Crime lab personnel from the state crime lab responded, but when they arrived at the scene around 11pm they decided to wait to process the scene until daylight. The area and body were placed under guard overnight, but Green Bay Police Inspector James Taylor used a photo of the missing bartender to unofficially identify the woman in the woods as Sandra Lyson. Captain Hins called David McAllister and told him of his sister's death. Then the captain and Sergeant Schick went to Paula's house on Manitowoc Road and informed Sandy's daughters about the death of their mother. The next morning, the crime lab personnel, Oconto county sheriff's deputies and Green Bay police met at the fire tower at 6am the law enforcement personnel at the scene concluded that Sandra had been killed where she was found. Sergeant Zettel's notes say there did not appear to be any type of struggle at the scene. Pine needles and leaves around the body were undisturbed, but there were no drag marks. And Sandra, at 200 pounds, was a larger woman. Oconto County Sheriff Tom Woodworth said it appeared that she had walked into the woods under her own power and was killed there. Green Bay Police Inspector Cletus Alexander agreed. The investigators at the scene examining Sandra noted that the lower front of her white dress exhibited some small blood drop stains. These were more like blood spatter, tiny droplets that sprayed onto her dress, perhaps from a blow. The question was, was it Sandra's blood or someone else's? After the crime scene was photographed and measured and mapped and searched, Sandra's body was prepared for transport. When Sandra was turned over, the investigators noted that all of the buttons on the back of her dress were unbuttoned, except for the two at the bottom. And underneath her body were discovered a slip and a pair of pantyhose. But her shoes were on her feet. That was odd. The body was transported to St. Vincent's for an autopsy. Sandra was brought in for autopsy wearing the white dress, a white bra and underwear and cream colored shoes, one of which had a maple leaf stuck to it. She was measured at 5 foot 4, 200 pounds. Insect larvae consistent with her being outdoors for some time were removed from her body. Observing the procedure, Green Bay Police Sergeant Keckhaver noted that Sandra had several bruises around her neck and red fluid draining from her mouth and left ear. She also had bruising under her left arm by her bicep and scrapes and bruises on her right arm. Dr. Darrell Scarpole used a special light to look for trace evidence on the body and collected a rape kit and fingernail scrapings. Then, starting his exam, he concluded Sandra had been beaten with numerous hemorrhages, bruises and abrasions on her body, in particular her face and neck. She also had injuries on her neck, right cheek, left jaw and left arm consistent with postmortem blunt trauma. The bruising on the arm was in the shape of fingers. She also had suffered a blow to the back of her head, likely from a hard object or a fall onto a hard surface. Blood had been found on the ground under her head on the forest floor. The cause of death was strangulation as her thyroid cartilage cornea was fractured. Dr. Scoppo later testified that the strangulation could have been consistent with a chokehold or common manual strangulation from the front. There was substantial evidence that Sandra had been sexually assaulted. This finding was supported by examination of her underwear. Leaf and wood fiber fragments mixed with sand were found on the inside of her underwear and on her buttocks and plant or grass material found in her pubic hair combings. She also had leaves and dirt on her upper back. It appeared she had been lying down outside and perhaps had been allowed to hastily redress herself as her four bra snaps were done up and her underwear was pulled partially up with organic material caught in it. She had put her shoes back on, but not her slip and hose, and her dress had not been re buttoned. Someone killed her before she had a chance to do that. But Dr. Scarpol's report did not take a position as to whether Sandra had been raped. There were no visible injuries to her genitalia whatsoever. So the doctor leaned against rape. But the positioning of and detritus in her underwear and dress made Dr. Scopel feel the possibility she had been raped was strong enough that he made sure to collect several vaginal swabs to capture the ample semen in her vagina. After testing, semen was detected on her underwear, on the lower back of her dress and in her upper vagina. Several sperm in her vagina were still motile, able to swim, meaning they had been fairly recently deposited. The autopsy report said There was a 75% probability that Sandra had sex within 24 hours prior to her death. When the pathologist had concluded his analysis, Sgt. Keckhaver checked a fingerprint card in the name of Sandra Joan Lyson, which she had submitted on February 12, 1965, in order to get her tavern operator's license. The fingerprints matched the dead woman. Sandra's murder was very big news in Green Bay. The article about her being found took up the top half of the front page of the Green Bay Press Gazette on August 5, 1987. Her sister in law, Marilyn McAllister, told the paper, quote, sandra was just a nice person living her life and it was just a real tragic happening is what it was from somebody taking an amount of less than $2,000. We now have two children without a mother. It's extremely senseless, extremely senseless, and I hope they find him. Marilyn told the reporter, Kathy and Tiffany would be staying with her and her husband. Quote, I think the hard part is still coming tomorrow at the funeral. But now they're still busy doing things. I think they're doing fine. They're holding up well. They're really two neat girls. There's a lot of maturity there. The little one doesn't quite understand, although I'm sure she knows it all happened. But I think it's harder on Kathy. She's going to be 16. She's really an adult almost, so the understanding is there. It's going to be hard, but we'll get by. The Oconto County Coroner Robert Wardecki made an eerily prescient statement. He lamented the lack of clues found at the scene as to who killed Sandra, and he told the ap, quote, this case is going to be around a while, I can tell you that. Unless someone stands in the middle of the highway and yells, I killed her. Well, no one stood in the middle of a road yelling. But there was a confession of sorts in this case. Put a pin in that. We'll get to it.

[Narrator/Host]

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home with the new Whimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $299. From Quiet Mornings to lively family gatherings, Whimsound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Create a home filled with sound you love. Ready to upgrade your sound? Shop now at Amazon and search Whim Sound. That's W I I M S O

[Megan McCardell]

U n D Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCardell and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday I'm going to talk to people who think see a path forward.

[Expert/Commentator]

It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are.

[Investigator/Reporter]

You know, I am a believer in

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America and that's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Investigator/Reporter]

Investigators now had two different crime scenes in two different counties. They were growing more and more convinced that Sandra had been abducted from the Good Times bar in Green Bay. But her body was found miles and miles away in the woods in Oconto county, specifically the Magicani Forest. The forest was a recreational area used by hikers, hunters, horseback riders and berry pickers. Its timber stores were worked by pulpers, commercial woodcutters who worked year round, and the area was also used at night for drinking parties and parked lovers. The surrounding rural area was made up of seasonal cottages and farmland and was very dark and deserted at night. Investigators felt that whoever marched Sandra into the woods, he knew exactly where he was going. The two people on horseback who had found Sandra were David S. And Jackie H. Of Green Bay. Sergeant Janet interviewed them at length. Jackie was a regular at the stables and was very familiar with the trails. She said she and David were out riding on the afternoon of the 5th and were on the little trail leading from the fire tower back to the stables. She glimpsed something white in the woods but kept going behind her, though. David stopped his horse and then caught up and said, hey, there's a dead woman back there. She didn't believe him and they turned back so he could show her. She got off her horse and stood two feet from the body and looked at it. Then they rode back to the stables and told Ray, the owner, what they'd seen. Jackie said Ray didn't seem too worked up about it. He just said, you're kidding. Where this turned police focus onto Ray. For a very short time, Raymond W. Was the Ray of Ray's writing stable. Police found his behavior to be odd as he followed them out to the body site and seemed overly interested in what was going on. He told them he spent a lot of time in Green Bay, so they knew he had a connection there as well. Ray spent some time on the persons of interest list but was eventually ruled out. It was hard to believe he would be dumb enough to kill Sandra right near the riding stable that was his livelihood. Green Bay investigators returned their focus to the bar and trying to figure out who had the motive, means and opportunity to abduct Sandra. Detective Massey and Inspector Parents interviewed the bar back. Robert M. Robert told them all about showing up at the bar at 5am Monday morning to clean it, finding Sandra's car in the lot and the closing process from the night before unfinished. He said that both the front door and back door to the bar were locked when he got there. Sandra did not have keys when she was Done for the night. She locked up by turning the interior lock. The door locked behind her as it closed. Robert said he went in the bar and he called out for Sandra after noticing the lights were still on, but she wasn't there. The till was wide open and empty and the money bag that Sandra usually filled and put in the safe was hanging on its hook with just a roll of dimes in it. The safe was also open and empty. The rinse tanks were still full and the coolers were not stocked. He noted two glasses on the bar, two or three feet to the left of the L on the bar. One of the glasses was half full of a mixed drink with a stir stick and the other was half full of beer. Sandra was usually fastidious about the cleanup. And then Robert saw her pack of cigarettes on the bar. I thought she must have left in a hurry, he said. He proceeded with his cleaning, stocking the coolers and cleaning as usual. When Judy arrived, he told her what was going on. Robert M. Came under police suspicion for obvious reasons. He had access to the bar and was there for more than two hours on Monday morning, cleaning up and very notably not sounding the alarm about the mess Sander had left and her car and cigarettes still being there. He had a somewhat flat affect that the detectives noted, and he had some bruises on his body and no alibi as his wife was away all weekend. Sanders friend Sally C. Who was another bartender at the bar, didn't have very nice things to say about Robert. She said he drank every day starting at 8am and when he did shots, he would get nasty. He needed a lot of attention, always talking to her while she was working the bar and demanding that she focus on him over other customers. He told her he had a crush on her and his wife was would not have sex with him. She had to tell him a number of times and make clear that she was not interested. But he kept coming on to her. She told the investigators Robert had mental problems and she did not trust him. However, she said that she didn't think that he would be able to harm Sandra and keep quiet about it. He didn't keep secrets. He would just get really drunk and sit there and stare at Sally while drooling beer down his chin. Others said he was overly sensitive, needed constant attention and was somewhat pathetic. No one thought Sandra would have let Robert push her around. But knowing where Sandra had been killed, police were particularly intrigued when they inspected Robert's car, noting that it was very dirty both inside and out. It appeared to have very recently been Driven down a dirt road. And inside the car were observed dried leaves, dirt and sand on the floor in both the front and back. This was deemed quite suspicious. Also on the outside of the passenger door were four finger marks that appeared as if someone had run their hand down the side of the door. In creepy horror movie style. The CSIs processed the car thoroughly inside and out. And Robert M. Agreed to submit finger and palm prints as well as head and pubic hairs and saliva and to participate in a lineup at the police department. It's pretty clear that Robert was pretty high up on the suspect list. Detective Arendt obtained a subpoena for his bank records, I guess looking to see if maybe he. He recently deposited $2,600, but no evidence of that was found. Robert M. Also submitted to a polygraph which he was told he passed. And police knew Robert would not have had to abduct Sandra to rob the bar. He had access to the money in the safe. She did not. Everyone who knew Robert said he was nonviolent and no one thought him capable of choking Sandra to death. Robert faded as a suspect and police focused on finding the three unidentified bar patrons who who were present at closing time. Police had assembled a list of names of people at the bar in the late hours of Sunday night and started to interview them to find out if they had seen or heard anything or maybe knew who the young couple or the unidentified male stranger were. Gordy M. Was in the bar that night with friends Eric and Monica. Gordy had recently gone out on a dinner date of sorts with Sandra, he said because he worked on Sandra's car at a steep discount so she paid for dinner. This was just a few days before the murder. He picked her up at her house and met the kids and they went to dinner and then to the Haystack Bar. He drove Sandra home around 10:30, stayed about 15 minutes and left. Then on Sunday night, Gordy was at the Good Times with Eric and Monica. He chatted with Sandra and everything seemed normal. He and his friends left the bar around 1am Gordy had an alibi for the time in question, 1:45 to 2am confirmed by phone records. After he got home, he spoke for 42 minutes on the phone to his adult daughter. Gordy's friends Monica and Eric said it was their first time at the Good Times. They didn't know anyone except Gordy and they left around one. All together, they estimated there were about five people left in the bar when they left. Steve C. Was interviewed extensively because he'd been at The Good Times that night with a group of friends and because he was very close with Sandra, he even knew her mom. And police were temporarily interested because he admitted he'd bought Sandra a Christmas present, a candle for her collection. Steve often went out for coffee with Sandra after work. Sometimes he helped her close up, turning off the lights, turning the sign around and locking the doors and so on. He would then leave and go get a table at the Perkins, and she would show up and join him. She usually was out of the bar by about 2:15. Two weeks after the murder, a Eugene P. Called the Green Bay police and told them he wanted to talk to a detective. He was drunk and crying when Sergeant Williams interviewed him. He admitted that he was at the Good Times Bar at 1:45 on the night that Sander was murdered. He arrived at the bar after last call and Sander wouldn't serve him because it was too late. She gave him a pint of brandy and sent him on his way. He didn't see anything suspicious, but observed a man and a woman that he didn't know were in the bar. He participated in a lineup but was not identified by Duke as the stranger sitting in the bar. Another guy named Lyle K. Was in the bar that night. He was mentioned to police because he drove a small red car and one had been seen parked in the back near Sandra's vehicle. Lyle, an accountant for a car dealership, always came in on Sundays after midnight, which is just an odd time to arrive at a bar. Lyle was interviewed and confirmed he was in the bar on the Sunday in question from 1215 to 1245. He'd never been there at closing time because he always had to leave to pick up his son at the end of his shift as a security guard at St. Vincent. Lyle said he sat at the middle of the bar and he was one of the witnesses who described the young couple in the bar and also described a guy he did not know who was sitting alone. Police issued press releases and media blasts describing the young man and woman who were in the bar at closing time Sunday night and asked to call in tips. Many, many tips were phoned in about women with cross tattoos on their upper arms. Finally, after scores of false leads, on August 5th, the police finally found this couple. They were Mike D. And his girlfriend, Marge C. They came forward when Marge saw in the papers the police were looking for an unidentified young couple seen at the Good Times bar at closing time on Sunday, August 2, in an indicator that Green Bay is actually just a small town. Marge knew Sandra because Sandra used to play cards with Marge's aunt and uncle. Mike and Marge were interviewed extensively. Police became satisfied very quickly that they had nothing to do with Sandra's disappearance. Their story about leaving the bar at closing time and going out to eat checked out and Marge took and passed a polygraph. But Mike and Marge were able to remember some important details about the last hours of Sunday night slash Monday morning at the Good Times Bar. Mike drew a diagram indicating where they were seated at the bar, which exactly meshed with where Duke had told police the young couple was stationed. And Mike remembered that there was a lone unknown man sitting at the bar when they left. Mike said he and Marge had left at closing time and Sandra, in the company of the stranger, was wiping down the bar when they walked out the front door. Mike admitted that he had been drinking all day and his recall was a little fuzzy. But Marge was very, very helpful. She confirmed when she and Mike left the bar, there was still one person at the bar with the bartender. And she was able to describe him. He was drinking beer, but she never saw him interact with the bartender. When she and Mike left, the man was still there. Both Marge and Mike worked on a composite sketch of the man they'd seen in the bar. They couldn't guess his height because he was sitting on a bar stool, but they agreed that he was white, in his late 40s or early 50s, of Husky build. He had a very receded hairline with grayish blonde hair, thin and combed on top and thicker and frizzier as it reached his collar. He had very light eyebrows and he had a round chin line and face matching his rounded hairline. He also had a heavy neck to match his stocky build. He was wearing a heavy flannel shirt or jacket that had brown and gold in the plaid pattern. Marge noticed the jacket or shirt because it was 90 degrees on that August day. She felt it was a little hot for the man to be wearing this garment. Police blasted Green Bay with this sketch. They ran it in the local papers and ran it on TV with a statement that he was possibly the last person to see Sandra alive and police were were looking for him. They drove the sketch around to area bars. They received hundreds and hundreds of tips about local guys the sketch could be and talked to scores of men just because they looked somewhat like the vague composite. Over the next month, Marge was shown a lot of photos of potential suspects to see if she recognized them. But she never identified any of them as the beer drinking, balding flannel shirt guy at the bar in January of 1988. She was shown 80 photos and never picked out the guy. On March 5, 1988, she underwent hypnosis to enhance her recall but wasn't able to remember anything further. Then another lead drew police attention away from the man in the bar and to a possible suspect vehicle. On August 6th, Sergeant Chic received a call from a Christine G. Christine had heard about Sandra and called in the tip because she felt her info might be connected. She said On Monday morning, August 3rd, she was heading to work at Nicollet Paper Company around 4:40 in the morning. As she was driving on the road leading to Ray's Riding Stables in the Mashakani Forest, she had a near collision with a suspicious car. The car was coming off a road close to the forest called Timberline. The car was driving on Timberline with no lights and suddenly flipped them on. As the car was right next to the road she was on, it turned in front of her and traveled very fast, turning north on 41 south, skidding on the gravel. Christine had amazing recall about the car she saw. It was a large station wagon with wood grain sides, two tone with a dark brown bottom and beige or tan top, no luggage rack, and a large round white sticker in the rear driver's side window. The sticker was similar to the high rider sticker dispensed by a local business. Christine later reviewed photos of cars and believed the one she'd seen was an old custom wagon. The driver was a male in his late 30s with medium length brown hair and a mustache. It's hard to overstate the emphasis that police placed on this suspicious vehicle. Christine saw it coming out of the woods with its lights off right around the timeframe that it made logical sense that Sandra would have been deposited in the woods. Sergeant Arendt and other officers canvassed the whole area after going to the location with Christine looking for the vehicle and asking the neighbors if they'd seen one like it. They eventually issued a BOLO of sorts to the public about the station wagon and anyone who drove a remotely similar car was pulled in and questioned. This amounted to countless numbers of men. One of these was Ken H. A mental patient on emergency hold at the Brown County Hospital who attempted to escape in a vehicle that matched the description given by Christine down to the sticker. It was a Chevy Impala, beige over brown. The local PD said that Ken was capable of murder and was a very strange person. They towed his car to the Green Bay Police, but searches of it turned up nothing related to the crime and they learned that Ken and his wife didn't buy the vehicle until August 8, 1987, so they didn't even own it at the time. Meanwhile, the results of the evidence processing were in the six unwashed glasses found on the bar were processed for latent prints by the Photo Identification Division of the Green Bay pd. They also processed the two cigar boxes which where smaller amounts of cash were stowed. Partial latent prints were obtained from the glasses and the boxes. Comparisons were made to customers, bartenders, owners, cleanup man Robert M and suspects. The fingerprints of Robert M, Mike D. Duke, Jocelyn and Marge X were submitted for checks against prints found on the glasses and boxes in the bar. In the end, all the latent prints were identified except for one partial latent print on the side of glass number three, which was a palm print from the base of the index finger, and two consistent prints on the cigar boxes. Police very badly wanted to know who those prints belonged to.

[Megan McCardell]

Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCardell and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

[Expert/Commentator]

It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are.

[Investigator/Reporter]

You know, I am a believer in

[Narrator/Host]

America and that's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever

[Narrator/Host]

you get Your podcasts bring incredible sound into every corner of your home with the new Whimsound Smart speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $299. From Quiet Mornings to lively family gatherings, Whim sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Create a home filled with sound you love. Ready to upgrade your sound? Shop now at Amazon and search Whim Sound. That's W I I M S O

[Advertiser/Promoter]

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[Investigator/Reporter]

Let's talk a little bit about some suspects who knew Sandra on a personal level. Larry G. Had dated Sandra for several months about two years earlier. He was a regular at the Good Times, playing the poker machine, darts and Judy's daily dice game. And sometimes he met Sandra for coffee after the bar closed on Sundays. Police interviewed Larry and he said he was out that night and drove by the Good times at around 1:30 but didn't stop in because it looked dead. I'm not sure how Larry was ruled out, but he was. Sergeant Hamilton tracked down and interviewed Tom G. Who had been engaged to Sandra and lived with her four years earlier. He said they didn't really keep in touch. Their breakup was mutual. They just grew apart. Police side eyed Tom, but both Sandra's friends Ginny and sue said Tom was milquetoast and not capable of killing Sandra. He was interviewed a number of times and submitted samples, but was also ruled out. Sandra was avowedly single when she was killed, but just a year earlier she had signed up for a dating service in Green Bay called Single Encounters. She said it was to try to find men who didn't go to bars. She only got three dates out of it and gave up on it. The investigators tracked down these men and questioned them and showed their photos to Duke, Marge and Mike. None of them were the man in the Good Times that night. One guy who was investigated very extensively was named Joe E. This was because his name was found written on a Perkins Restaurant discount coupon or flyer that was tucked into Sandra's cigarette case police found at the bar. The writing said P and g Holiday Inn 608, referring to Procter and Gamble and a hotel room at the Green Bay Holiday Inn. Joe E. Was in Cincinnati by the time Special Agent Louis Tomaselli from the Wisconsin Department of Justice got the Ohio BCI to track him down and interview him. Joe was squirrely from the get go, throwing out vague dates of when he had left Green Bay, denying he'd ever been to the Good Times and even questioning whether the men questioning him were actually with the police. After his initial interview, Mike Murphy, the BCI agent in charge of the Joe E. Angle said, quote, the suspect had become evasive and not kept his appointments with the bci. Joe also listed his truck and car for sale. Investigators questioned all Joe E's co workers at Procter and Gamble about his doings in Green Bay where he'd been stationed for work. They tracked down the Perkins flyer. And learned it was last printed in August of 1987. Joe E. Told the investigators that he had no idea how his name and hotel room number got in Sandra's cigarette case. But the only thing he could think of was that he used to write his name and contact information on flyers that he would hand out to girls at bars. Police determined it was indeed not Sandra's handwriting on the flyer. Eventually, police decided Sandra had likely gotten the flyer from someone. And tucked it away to use to get a bargain meal for herself and her kids. The whole Joey thing was just a coincidence. But it ended up wasting many, many hours of investigators time. Both in Wisconsin and Ohio, there were a number of men who interested police. Because they had clashed with Sandra and been banned from the bar. Sandra was no nonsense when she was in charge of the Good Times. And she had to rule with an iron fist because, well, drunk men sometimes need to be treated like children anyway. Police learned the name Howard R. As someone Sandra had banned from the Good Times when she was on duty. Police interviewed him on August 8. He admitted that Sandra had thrown him out for fighting and using bad language, which was against her rules. But he said he didn't hold a grudge about that. In fact, his wife babysat for Sandra's girls and used to be the bar cleaner. Howard was in fact alibi by his wife, who said they both went home on Sunday night, August two to three, because Howard had to work on Monday morning. Howard was included in a photo lineup to the witnesses. But was not selected as the man they saw. As an aside, Howard mentioned in his interview that Sandra was a fighter. And he felt she would have had to have been forced out of the bar. She had broken up many fights in the bar and could hold her own. Whoever took her, he must have had some kind of power over her. Another guy police heard through the grapevine that Sander had banned from the Good Times bar Was Robert D. He had apparently been kicked off the Good Times softball team. For the 1987 season. Because he didn't get along with Sandra. Robert, when interviewed, denied this. He said he was actually kicked out of the bar by Judy for a mooning incident. Police moved on. Then they came across the name of a guy who checked two boxes. He was tipped by several people as being a dead ringer for the sketch of the man in the bar. And two years earlier, he'd been banned from being at the Good Times when Sandra was there. This was Thomas S. Apparently he was nicknamed Bozo because his hair resembled that of Bozo. The clown, which I dare say is not a compliment. Thomas was reported as having made threats towards Sandra because the two had some kind of beef. Police wanted to get to the bottom of it. They interviewed Tom S, AKA Bozo. He told them that yes, he and Sandra had had it out after Sandra had called his wife and told her that Tom had left the bar with another woman. This was a woman named Edie he was seeing on the side. Tom admitted that he had told Sandra to mind her own business and she didn't have the right to tell anyone who he left with. He even admitted that he called her a bitch and so she banned him. Tom said that even though he knew Sandra wouldn't serve him, he occasionally went to the bar just to piss her off. He sounded like exactly the type of person who might have reached a boiling point and taken Sandra out to the woods to show her who was boss. Tom was also unemployed and a reputed bad drunk. But he was interviewed several times and was very cooperative each time. He said he wasn't at the good times that night. He said he didn't go out on Sunday nights. He did not seem nervous and seemed genuinely sincere and was able to relate what he watched on TV while at home Sunday night with his wife. Tom gave samples but after a time was back burnered. For the next several months, investigators followed up on tips about people resembling the composite. Weird neighbors and relatives named by tipsters, local criminals and sex offenders, and so on. The police put a lot of stock in the composite sketch and seemed to assume that the lone unidentified man seen at the bar was the killer. But they could not find him. Lead after lead fizzled. In September 1987, Sandra's unsolved murder was featured as the local Crime stoppers Crime of the month. The 30 second broadcast featured the sketch of the unidentified man at the bar at closing time and asked in a voiceover did she have her last drink with her killer. The Crime Stoppers effort was deemed worthwhile because the Green Bay Police Department had received a large number of tips after featuring a different unsolved case on Crimestoppers. The murder of Lisa Holstead in green bay on August 2, 1986. That case remained unsolved for decades until it was solved with IGG. I covered it on DNAID in September of 2023. That same month, September 1987, the Green Bay Investigators and DCI released another sketch of a man they were seeking from the Good Times Bar. This sketch was the one prepared with input from Duke Jocelyn, who had seen the man sitting at the bar. As Sandra was preparing to close, no bar regulars seemed to be able to name him. Police said, we're trying to contact him but we would not call him a suspect. Inspector Cletus Alexander told the media, quote, he's not necessarily the killer. He's somebody in the bar that night and we would like to determine who he is. The second sketch, very different from the first, shows a white man with a thin face, pointy chin, high forehead and narrow nose, possibly in his early 40s and weighing about 165 pounds. He had thinning medium brown hair which was slightly combed back and blue or green eyes. Police also revealed they were looking for a red compact car seen behind the bar during the early morning hours of August 3rd. The Green Bay investigators also sent the three remaining unidentified latent prints from the bar glass and cigarette boxes to the FBI lab in D.C. hoping to get a hit on APHIS. No such luck. So the investigation continued full steam ahead with police interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people. The file was very well documented and no stern left unturned. As I reviewed it, I thought to myself, I'll bet the suspect's name is in here somewhere. There are literally thousands of men's names. The investigators revisited them throughout the ensuing years and Sandra's case stayed at the forefront of the Green Bay Police Department's priority list even as the years ticked by. Before we move on, I'd like to mention a case from a neighboring state that Green Bay investigators considered possibly related to Sandras because of some startling similarities. The connection as of now has not been proven but I'm mentioning it because it's unsolved and I hope that that will soon change and I can cover it. This was the July 1987 murder of Anita Carlson in Bemidji, Minnesota. On Tuesday night, June 30th, Anita was working the night shift at Pete's Place convenience store when the place was robbed of over $1,000 and Anita was abducted sometime after 11pm When a morning shift employee showed up at 6:30am on Wednesday, he found Anita missing, the store locked but the alarm not set, her purse behind the counter and her car still in the parking lot. Her nude body was found on July 5th in a wooded area two miles from the store. She'd been raped and shot twice through the head. The location of Anita's crime was 455 miles from Sandras but the MO except for the gunshots was spot on. In March of 1988, the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit provided some observations on Sandra's case. The analysts felt that the offender was familiar with the bar and the victim. He knew no one, such as a husband or boyfriend, would come to pick Sandra up. And he knew that police were not checking the bar as a matter of routine. The motive was robbery, and that specific bar was targeted for robbery. Sandra was selected because the bar was selected. Control over her was affected with a weapon, likely a gun or knife. The FBI profile assumed that Sandra's ordeal had included sexual assault. It was felt that Sandra had hastily redressed herself, putting her four bra snaps in place and her shoes on, but skipping her hose and slip. She was probably given hope that she was going to live. The victim was killed because she knew her offender and he didn't want anyone to know he had sex with and abused her. The suspect knew the Machicani Forest general area, but not intimately. As for the offender, he was a white male in his 20s to 30s with a record for rape or robbery or both. He probably drank or used drugs. He was, as they put it, a liar and braggart type. He was an organized offender who would not return to the crime scene. He also probably did not go to work the next day, and if he did, he acted withdrawn and quiet. If contacted by police, he would be very cooperative. He might have developed a reason to leave town for weeks or even months after the murder. In March of 1988, the Green Bay Police, Oconto County Sheriff's Department and DCI issued a joint press release about the station wagon they were looking for. They had already checked all the junkyards and looked into every station wagon they could find that met the description given by the witness Christine. The release said the car was seen driving erratically away from the Machicani Forest and in the very early hours of the nightstander disappeared. They needed the public's help in locating the suspected General Motors station wagon manufactured between 1976 and 1986, with wood grain sides and beige or tan top. An image of the station wagon was provided. As a result of this press release, the police got more than 30 tips that had to be run down, but none of them went anywhere. The first anniversary of Sandra's murder came and went. Deputy police Chief Thomas Hins told the Green Bay Press Gazette, quote, it's very hard to say if we're any closer. He acknowledged that they didn't have much evidence and police had no suspects and, quote, no idea who killed Sandra. Captain Cletus Alexander told the News Chronicle. As time goes by, it gets harder and harder. The public loses interest and there are few leads. But he said they were sticking with it, hoping to find that one lead. This isn't something you leave at the door when you go home, he said. Time marched on. 1988, 1989, 1990. Then, in March 1991, there was a big development. Police learned that a man named Stephen W. Of Bellevue had found something. Green Bay police Sergeant Rogowski went to meet with Stephen, who told the officers that a day or two earlier he'd been cutting wood just north of his dad's home on Glenview Road in Glenmore. And there on the ground, he found a beige purse containing the driver's license of Sandra Lyson. Sergeant Rogowski collected the purse and brought it to the Green Bay police station. The weather beaten purse also contained many credit cards, an NRWI Technical College ID card, and some small notepads which were all wet and in Sandra's name. The purse appeared to have been out in the woods for years. The police sent the purse to the crime lab and the next day a number of officers from Green Bay and Brown county returned to Steven's home and he drove them out to his father Jerome's land and showed them where he'd found it. It was in a small wooded area, just six acres of woods among farmland located on Glenview Road between Lange's Corner Road and Creek View. The exact spot where the purse had lain was too far from the road to have been thrown from a car. The area was thoroughly searched and two pairs of sunglasses found, but nothing else. So now the police had a third crime scene. Police said the discovery of the purse would shift the focus of the investigation because it was found on a rural wooded lot in Glenmore in Brown County, 45 miles from where Sandra's body was found in Oconto County. It was felt the spot was one someone would have to know. The finding of the purse was big news in all the papers and resulted in lots more tips about men who had familiarity with the area where the purse had been discarded. Sandra's brother, David McAllister, was very happy to hear that leads were coming in from the purse. By this time, Sandra's oldest daughter Kathy, was attending University of Wisconsin, Green Bay. I imagine the finding of her mom's handbag was both a source of hope and a source of renewed pain. This is the end of part one of the Case of Sandra Lyson. Part two is available right now.

[Megan McCardell]

Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCardell and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called reasonably optimistic and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

[Expert/Commentator]

It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are.

[Investigator/Reporter]

You know, I am a believer in

[Narrator/Host]

America and that's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever

[Narrator/Host]

you get your podcasts Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home with the new Whimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $299. From Quiet Mornings to lively family gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Create a home filled with sound you love. Ready to upgrade your sound? Shop now at Amazon and search Whim sound. That's W I I M S O

[Advertiser/Promoter]

U N D the Global Gaming League is presented by Atlas Earth, the fun cashback app. Hey, it's Howie Mandel and I am inviting you to witness history as me and my Howie Do It Gaming team take on Gilly The King and Wallow two $67 million gaming in an epic Global Gaming League video game showdown plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travy McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match right [e-mail] that's globalgamingleague.com in partnership with Level Up Expo.