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Kara here from the Kara Golden Show. If you're not using Ironclad for contracts, you could be leaving millions on the table. Ironclad's AI instantly surfaces. What matters renewal dates, pricing terms and obligations so you can act quickly before opportunities slip away. That's why they're trusted by great brands like OpenAI, L', Oreal, Salesforce, and so many others. Find the savings hiding in your contracts@ironcladapp.com podcast that's Ironclad app. We've all been there. The unexpected hosting panic, like when the Big Game party finally makes it out of the group chat. But you volunteered to host host the Big Game and suddenly you need snacks, drinks, dips, cups and all the other game day essentials no one else planned for. With Instacart, you can get all those groceries delivered in as fast as 30 minutes. No extra errands for you. One quick order for everyone. That way everything shows up right on time, making hosting easy and making it look like you had it planned all along. Download the Instacart app and get game day deals. You're listening to dnaid, brought to you by Abjec Entertainment. Be sure to check out some of the other great true crime podcasts from this network, including the Murder in My Family, Missing Persons, Scene of the Crime, Zodiac Speaking Beyond Bizarre, True Crime, Citizen Detective, and Campus Killings. All of these podcasts are available for you to binge on right now. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Subscribe where you're listening to this podcast so you don't miss an episode.
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It was 1982. Police officer Tommy Morris was concerned. Moonlighting as head of security for the Permian Mall, now known as Music City Mall. The Odessa police detective sergeant was the go to for matters involving shoplifting or public safety at his second job, but he was also concerned with the safety of mall employees. That's why on April 19, just before noon, he received a call from Harry Callahan, general manager of the Permian Mall. Harry told Detective Sergeant Morris and Officer Daryl Gilbert that one of the mall employees, a cleaning lady named Velma Nesset, had not shown up for work that morning. Employee tardiness or absence did not fall under the purview of mall security. But Callahan insisted that Velma was never late for work. She showed up for her 5am shift every day she was scheduled without fail. If she couldn't come in, she always rang the office to inform them. Further, Callahan had called the next of kin listed on Velma's employment paperwork. This was Velma's adult daughter, Joyce. Joyce hadn't heard from her mom and was already worried. The two had been supposed to meet for lunch at noon at Velma's apartment. But when Joyce got to Velma's place. Apartment 95 at the Windcrest Apartments, located at 3965 Pembroke, no one was home. The table was set for lunch. But her mom's purse and coat. Things she took with her to work every day, were gone. Joyce called Officer Gilbert at 12:15 and reported those facts. Her mom seemed to be MIA, which was very out of character. She told the security officers that her mom always walked to and from work. As she didn't own a car. She left her nearby apartment to head to the mall every day at 4:30am the two had spoken on the phone the night before around 10:30. And confirmed their plans for lunch on the 18th. Joyce was now very worried and had already called the police. Officers from the Odessa Police Department arrived at Velma's place. And Joyce greeted Officer Dee Johnston. And at 12:02pm gave details needed for the missing persons report on her mom. Then she left. Mall security Officers Gilbert and Morris. Went over to Velma's. But found the door locked and Joyce already gone. They knocked on the door of the neighbors in apartment 97. And they said they hadn't seen Velma that day at all. Nor had the apartment manager. Officer Gilbert and Detective Sergeant Morris started retracing Velma's walk to work. They left the apartment complex and drove to Northwest Drive. Off of the Tanglewood street entrance to the rear of the mall. There was an overpass there with a drainage ditch. And three large drain tunnels or culverts under the bridge. The first two tunnels Officer Gilbert checked contained nothing. The third contained a body. A woman was lying face up about midway through the culvert. After yelling to Detective Sergeant Morris to call an ambulance. Officer Gilbert entered the drainage tunnel. And took a closer look at the body. It was Velma, and she was dead. Let's talk a little bit about who Velma was. Velma Nettie Mackey was born on December 11, 1916. In Bedford, Iowa. To parents Erie Mackey and Nettie Stevens Mackey. Velma grew up in Iowa with two brothers and two sisters. I really don't know much about her younger life. But as an adult, she lived in Des Moines and had a daughter, Joyce. I found an April 1978 wedding announcement for that coming May for Joyce Nesset and her fiance. The announcement made by, quote, Ms. Velma Nesset and Stanley Nesset of Des Moines. But Velma and Stanley had been divorced since September 26, 1957. Oddly, it appears they got married only a few months before that, in early July 1957, with Velma taking the surname Nesset and then filing for divorce within a mere three weeks of the wedding. I don't know what was going on here, whether they got married just during the birth of Joyce, so she would be, quote, legitimate, which was of social importance in the 1950s or what. Joyce married a man from Ector County, Texas, and after her wedding, Velma decided to move down there to be close to her newlywed daughter. She had found work as a waitress and now, four years later, at age 64, was working as a cleaning lady for the Permian Mall. No one had a bad thing to say about Velma. She was described by co workers and her manager as kind, gentle and sweet. She was grandmotherly, a nice little old lady, someone they all doted on like an elderly relative. Person after person reported to the investigators. She always kept the mall office and employee rooms clean, the coffee on and so on. She was meticulous and liked things just so, but approached people with a smile and was generous. A co worker named Sally was very close with Velma and provided some insight into her daily life and routines for investigators. Sally said Velma was very religious, frequently donating any precious extra dollars to Christian charities or her church. Money was tight for her and Velma saved by walking to work and going home for lunch every day. She generally arrived early for her 5am shift when, which is why when she was late and then a no show, the alarm was sounded so quickly. Velma did not generally go out and she did not have a boyfriend. Sally said to police, who would do this to such a sweet person? Okay, let's return to the crime scene. Police dispatch was informed that at 12:58pm the body of a missing woman believed to be Velma Nesset, was found in a drainage culvert beneath the northwest entrance to the mall, located at 4101 E. 42nd St. In Odessa. Arriving officers parked in the rear parking lot off Tanglewood street and observed the culvert, which was measured to be approximately 55ft long, 10ft wide and approximately 5ft high. The body lay at the approximate halfway point of the culvert. Ambulance number 73, driven by ENT's Robert Ortiz and Bill Griffin, arrived and quickly determined nothing could be done to help Velma. They put a sheet over her body and Officer Gilbert preserved the scene until detectives Ken Allaire, Jerry Smith, Larry Holly and Rodney Casey arrived. Holly and Allaire Homicide detectives took the call even though they were under the impression from the radio call that they had a natural death on their hands. A heart attack or some such thing. But when they arrived, they found that was not the case at all. Right away, Detective Holly noticed two drops of blood on the floor of the culvert tunnel about three feet inside the opening. Further in, Velma lay on her back, partially on her right side, with her left arm across her stomach and the right arm extended outward and up. Her left shoulder was wedged against the eastern wall of the culvert. Her head was turned to the right and lying in a 6 inch, still wet pool of blood and vomit. There was quite a bit of blood around her neck and chest area. A smear of blood was on the east wall of the culvert near the victim. Investigators noticed that Velma was wearing a navy blue long sleeve coat and a navy blue blouse. Her blouse was opened and both upper clothing items were pulled up to her chest area. And her black pants and pink underwear were pulled down to near her knees. It was noted that Velma's blue and white sneakers were covered in mud, consistent with mud in the culvert. And mud was splashed on the bottoms of her pant legs. Eyeglasses were on the ground next to the body. Velma's blue and white purse was lying on the ground next to her feet and was sitting open with a stick of gum lying on the ground as though someone had rifled through the purse and spilled the gum out. A cough drop on the ground next to Velma appeared to have been partially sucked on. Detectives Casey and Holly took control of the crime scene. A Justice of the Peace, Judge Jimmy Harris, arrived and pronounced velma dead at 1:50pm he ordered an autopsy to be performed and requested that Dr. Richard Cohen come to the scene to make a preliminary investigation. When Dr. Cohen arrived, he felt Velma's foot and arm, moved them about, and declared that she'd been dead for just about six hours. Just a guess, he said. When the doctor moved Velma's blouse away from her neck, he saw the stab wound in her throat. He noted the pool of blood and posited that she'd been stabbed and bled to death. Although it was curious that the pool of blood was so small. The doctor tried to take a blood sample from her head and neck, but said she didn't have enough blood left in those areas and he would try to get one later. The CSIs bagged Velma's hands and at 3:05pm her body was Picked up to be removed to Easterling Wilson Funeral Home. When they moved, her, blood dripped from her body onto the ground. But that was not the surprising thing. When they lifted her onto the gurney, a small knife that had been tangled up in her clothing clattered to the ground. It was a folding fishing knife with a yellow handle. Glove wearing CSIS collected it into evidence. So Velma's body was removed to Easterling Wilson Funeral Home to prepare her for autopsy. When her clothing was removed, something shocking happened. An off white plastic handled four and three quarter inch serrated steak knife fell out of the right side of her clothing. This was the second knife that had basically fallen out of Velma's garments. This knife too was collected and retained in evidence. Rather than proceed immediately with the autopsy, it was decided to remove Velma to the medical center hospital morgue to process her body with lasers, looking for possible fingerprints. This was done by E. Roland Manzel, a professor of physics at Texas Tech University. He scanned Velma's entire body. But the laser failed to illuminate any latent fingerprints on her skin. Then the autopsy by Dr. Cohen got started. On April 20th at 4:30pm the pathologist noted a 1 1/4 inch knife wound in the left anterior neck area of Velma's throat. The left external jugular vein was lacerated horizontally at the level of the clavicle. The knife had penetrated three inches which with the width of the cut gave minimum measurements of the blade. At 3 inches in length and 1 1/4 inches wide. Dr. Cohen observed a small punctuate contusion on the right upper quadrant of Velma's front abdominal wall. She had also suffered a blow to the back of her head, although there was no laceration to the skin of the scalp and no evidence of a skull fracture. At the conclusion of the autopsy, Dr. Cohen listed the cause of death as exsanguination secondary to the stab wound in the neck. Her death certificate reflects a puncture wound to the left anterior neck with laceration of the left external jugular vein and massive internal hemorrhage. There was so little blood at the scene because Velma had bled internally. Dr. Cohen, of course, inspected Velma's body for signs of sexual assault. Given that she'd been found with her pants down, he observed no evidence of trauma to her sexual organs. He collected vaginal, anal and oral swabs. And when he examined them under a microscope, he observed no sperm on any of the evidence swabs. He later said that he could not determine whether Velma had been raped. But if she had, there was no evidence of ejaculate. I'd like to interject here that the determination that there was no sperm on the swabs was was made by the pathologist using a microscope. It's unknown whether had these swabs been retained and examined using modern equipment, the observations would have been different. As for the time of death, the official autopsy report lists time of death as between 5 and 8am Remember that at the scene Dr. Cohen had observed a level of rigor mortis indicating Velma had been dead about six hours. She was found at 1pmthat would put her time of death at around 7am but investigators came to believe it was actually significantly earlier. They knew based on talking to Joyce and all of Velma's coworkers and the mall manager that she always got to work before 5 in the morning on April 19. She never made it to work. Based on that information and the assumption that just as she did every day, Velma set out to work around 4:30 in the morning. The time of death was established at between 4:30 and 5am I'm happy to announce that DNAID will be on podcast row at CrimeCon again this year. Last year I met so many amazing listeners who stopped by my booth to say hello and I met several incredible members of law enforcement, two of whom brought me cases that I ended up covering in season four. CrimeCon 2025 is taking place in Aurora, Colorado on September 5th, 6th and 7th and I really hope to see you there. Please make sure you use my voucher DNAID all one word at checkout when you purchase your badge to save 10%. That's real savings. Again, DNAID all one word in the voucher box at checkout to save 10% on your badge. See you in the Rockies. Hi DNAID listeners. I'm thrilled to welcome a new sponsor to the show, Mint Mobile. I live in a town with notoriously bad cell service from the Big three providers. So when Mint Mobile approached me about changing it up, I was more than happy to sign on the dotted line because for a very affordable 15 bucks a month for three months of premium wireless service, I can save money and have uninterrupted service with my same phone number. With my old plan, it was so awkward when my calls would drop if I happened to open the refrigerator. Nothing is more upsetting than having my phone cut out right as Cece Moore is explaining a non paternal eventer, Paul Holes is expounding on one and done killers with Mint Mobile, where all plans come with 5G high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. I don't have to miss a thing. Get your summer savings and shop Premium wireless plans@mintmobile.com dnaid that's mintmobile.com dnaid upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5G plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hi guys, A couple of weeks ago I talked to you about what a great gift Masterclass is for Mother's Day and now here we are approaching Father's Day and there are so many reasons I am giving Masterclass as a gift to the dads in my life. My dad, a lifelong journalist and author, will get so much out of the writing and communications classes. I think he'll really enjoy watching his former colleague Bob Woodward's class on investigative journalism. As for my husband, he will love John Legend's class on songwriting. Since he aspires to quit his day job and focus on his band, this class is a gift that will really resonate with him. A Father's Day gift of A Masterclass subscription is way better than another tie or set of grilling tools because it won't get stored in a drawer or forgotten in a closet. Instead, it will last a lifetime. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best for still only $10 a month billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. It's an amazing deal. Plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com DNAID See MasterClass's latest deal at least 15% off@masterclass.com DNAID that's masterclass.com DNAID Odessa Police Officer Gilbert and Detective Casey attended the autopsy and collected several items into evidence besides the knife that had clattered out of Velma's clothing collected from Velma's person and the pockets of her clothing was a pink coin purse, a black lady's neckerchief and several cough drops. Then there was her clothing, which told investigators a lot about what had happened to Velma. The specific locations of bloodstains on the outside of Velma's coat pointed to her coat being done up fastened around her when she was stabbed. Detectives notes say, quote if the jacket was open, it is reasonable to believe that the stains were would be on her blouse and not her jacket. End quote. Further, the trajectory of the bloodstains told the investigators that Velma had been stabbed while standing upright. The blood stained drop and run patterns showed a downward direction to the drops. Velma's clothing told the investigators a lot about what had happened once she'd been stabbed. Her coat had been opened and her lower half clothing removed altogether. Velma's pants and underwear were found inside out. Her pants were also on backwards and the whole thing was weird. The pants were of a baggy fabric material with an elastic waistband. The bottom of the pants had been hemmed by hand with a light colored thread. The inside of the pants, worn on the outside and pulled up past the knees of the dead woman was relatively clean. But when the investigators turned the pants right way out, they noted something important. This from a report by Odessa police detective Justin Cade. Quote, I found that the outer front of the pants had what appeared to be dirty impact marks where Nesset's knees may have been located while wearing the pants. Additionally, I observed muddy drag marks that went upward toward the crotch of the pants. Nesset's shoes were muddy and the drainage culvert was also muddy. End quote. And this from Texas Ranger Jeff Strain's report. Quote it is reasonable to believe that during the course of the incident that Nesset's pants were removed from her legs. I believe that her shoes remained on her feet and while her pants were removed they were turned inside out. As they were being removed and being turned inside out, the toes of her muddy shoes caused the mud transfer marks up the front of her pants. I believe that her pants were placed back onto Nesset after they were fully removed. So as you heard, Velma was stripped nude on her bottom half with her muddy light blue tennis shoes still on and then redressed with the pants inside out. For some reason, her killer didn't pull her pants all the way up but left them down at her knees with her genitals exposed. Why bother to redress her if you aren't going to do it all the way? Velma's purse, which appeared to possibly have been rifled by her killer was dusted for fingerprints. However, they were unable to obtain any useful prints off the purse or its contents. Surprisingly, the same was true for the knives. The killer might have wiped the handle or handles down to be sure he left no prints. The crime scene area was thoroughly searched by CSIS who noted a patch of footprints in the mud south of the tunnel in the ditch, a scarf which proved to be Velma's was also found on the ground. It appeared that Velma had been stunned by a blow to the back of the head. Probably forced or dragged at knife point off the sidewalk into the ditch and then the culvert and then stabbed, pulled by her assailant. The smear of blood on the culvert wall near Velma's body was at first believed to have been made when Velma was attacked and her head struck the wall. But that theory was discarded when the autopsy revealed that Velma's scalp had not been lacerated. Police came to believe the smear was possibly left by the suspect as he wiped blood from his hand. Unfortunately, no samples of this blood smear were collected. Detective Mike Davis was instructed to talk to witnesses and lead a canvas of apartment buildings near the crime scene. So Detective Davis, Detective Field and Detective Martin went to the Cimarron Station apartments abutting the mall. They started knocking on doors and asking questions, but no one had seen or heard anything. Ms. Leo Box said she usually saw a woman walking east across the drainage ditch around 4:50am but she had not seen her on the 19th. However, it was noted that it was foggy that morning and Mrs. Box might not have been able to make out Velma's figure in the mist. Then they went to Velma's apartment building, the Windcrest Apartments, and talked to the neighbors there. They didn't learn much. No one had seen anything. One woman, E.J. williams, said Velma, her friend, usually left before 5 in the morning. They had learned from Joyce and some of Velma's co workers that she didn't have a car and walked but the two blocks from her apartment building to work. Every morning, rain or shine. That day, her walk was interrupted. I'd like to say here it's not clear from the original case file materials whether Odessa police took official statements from all Velma's co workers who were at the mall that morning on June 9, 1980, two months after the murder. This statement was taken from Sally Smith. Sally was an employee in the maintenance department at the Permian Mall and a good friend of Velma's. On April 19, she arrived at work a little earlier than usual around 4:30 in the morning. As she turned off 42nd street onto Tanglewood, her headlights illuminated a white male, approximately 18 or 19 years old, fairly short, maybe 5 foot 4, with dark hair that was wavy and worn a little longer, but didn't quite come down to his collar. He was wearing a light colored shirt and Levi's and a bowler Hat. When her headlights illuminated him, he looked back at her. He was walking north on Tanglewood by the east curb line, moving briskly away from the spot where Velma would later be found. Police came to believe that Sally likely saw Velma's murderer leaving the scene. Sally went on to lay out the timeline of the morning on which Velma was killed. She said Velma usually arrived to work around 4:40am but of course we know that morning was a different story. Around 4:45am Sally and Velma's co workers at the mall, Gail M. Johnny Ray Foot and his cousin Wayne drove up. The three typically carpooled to work together in Gail's car and they did so on that day as well. Sally started her workday but around 7:30 began really to worry about Velma. So she called her home and got no answer. Around 8:30am Sally and Wayne had to go run an errand on behalf of the mall. So they stopped by Velma's house and knocked on the door and again got no answer. When they got back it was around 11 and there was still no sign of Velma. So Sally called Velma's daughter Joyce at Zales where she worked and said, your mom didn't come into work. Is everything okay? Joyce said, that's odd. I have an extra key so I'll go over there. Then Sally went to lunch with a co worker and when they got back, there were police cars all over the mall. I have no idea who would kill Velma, Sally told detectives. Police didn't either. After all, who would have it out for a 64 year old cleaning lady just walking to work in the pre dawn hours? There were some early suspects in this case. Let's discuss them. On the afternoon of the murder in the mall office, Officer Gilbert discussed Velma's murder with assistant mall manager Danny Young. A mall maintenance employee named Johnny Foote overheard the conversation in the office and volunteered something. He said when Velma had not shown up to work, he and a few other guys had been asked to go walk her route to work from her home at the Windcrest Apartments to see if they saw anything. Johnny said as he was checking places along Velma's route, he walked under the drainage bridge located on the northwest corner of the mall property at about 12:15pm and Velma's body was not there. Detective Br Myrick heard Johnny say this and knew this could not be right. Police suspected based on the blood drops, the muddy footprints and Velma's typical route that she had been waylaid and taken into the culvert where she was killed. And she had been dead for several hours before Officer Gilbert located her body in the culvert. If Johnny had looked in the culvert at 12:15 and said he didn't see her, it really didn't add up. And frankly, we was suspicious. Detective Myrick and Officer Gilbert started to question Johnny. The report says, quote, the foot subject at first wanted to argue that point and again stated he had gone under the bridge, but then just looked at both officers and said nothing else, end quote. Johnny's adamant arguing about whether Velma's body had been in the culvert at 12:15 raised investigators eyebrows. Quote, no one realized that because of the position of the sun and the shadows inside the culvert, the body was not visible. Although Johnny stood only 20ft away. His defense attorney, Cynthia Clack later wrote, Johnny felt the mall officials and the police were accusing him of being lazy or sloppy. He didn't get that. It made him look like he was hiding something. Now is probably a good time to disclose that Johnny Foote was mentally challenged. We will come back to him shortly. A second mall employee who piqued the interest of the Odessa investigators was M. Hensley. Hensley was the trash truck driver for the Permian Mall and was a reservist in the National Guard. He also lived in Velma's building and in his interview with police said he considered Velma like an aunt. They sometimes walked to work together. Hensley told the police that Velma had complained about obscene phone calls and mysterious knocks on her door. But police couldn't verify any of that, and Hensley himself drew their suspicions pretty quickly because they learned that he was in the habit of carrying a knife, and he had an extensive knife collection. Furthermore, boots that Hensley owned had a similar pattern to the boot prints found in the mud at the crime scene. As Velma's trusted neighbor, of course, he would be aware of her walking patterns to and from work. Hensley and his results were deemed inconclusive.
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He.
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He refused to take a second test. Hensley was considered a viable suspect, but he soon took a back seat to someone else. Another man who drew the attention of police was David C. Who was a maintenance department employee of the mall and lived in a car behind the mall. He was interviewed and told police he didn't see anything unusual that day. But on the 26th, one week after the murder, Nancy Nold, the Permian Mall office secretary, called Odessa police and reported that an employee, David, had found a knife in the parking lot. Detective Maria Martin went to the mall office and met with the man who found the knife. David said that he had located a butcher knife in the dirt surfaced north parking lot. Officer Martin looked at the knife, a 7 inch butcher knife with a wooden handle, and noted a foreign substance on the blade. She collected the knife into evidence and asked David to show her exactly where he found it. They walked to the north parking lot behind the office area of the mall. There was a service entrance door to the west of the main doors on the north side of the mall. There was a paved driveway to that service door. And the knife was located approximately 40ft north of the service entrance door and 20ft west of the east curb line of the paved driveway. Detective Martin documented all this in her report and submitted the butcher knife for testing. On April 30, 1982, Odessa detectives submitted the following evidence to the Texas Department of Public Safety crime Lab. The butcher knife, Velma's blue blouse, Velma's white bra, head, hair from Velma, pubic hair from Velma, and a hair found on Velma's right hand on May 13, 1982. Danny Kirby, the lab supervisor, stated that the examination of these items revealed that the victim's blood type was type B. No blood was detected on the butcher knife, no human hair was detected on the butcher knife. And the hair found on Velma's right hand was microscopically similar to her own. The lab report I saw says nothing about testing on the blouse and bra. But spoiler alerts. No bodily fluids from Velma's assailant have ever been detected on those items. Okay, back to our suspects. So David C. The knife finder, and M. Hensley, the second polygraph refuser, were both placed on the suspect list. Police had ample reason to look at both men and consider whether they could have killed Velma. But the two took a backseat to the police's prime suspect, Johnny Foote, who had been an employee of the mall for only one month since March 25, 1982. Johnny had started working there and Velma was killed within a few weeks. Smitty, one of the maintenance supervisors at the mall, had sent Johnny and some others out to look for Velma after Sally pointed out that she had not shown up for work. They walked the area and looked down and in the ditches, bridges, everywhere from Velma's apartment to the mall. They didn't find her, even though Johnny said he looked in the specific culvert where velma was found 45 minutes later. Johnny Foote's original statement, typed, signed and witnessed By Detective Feel said, quote, my name is Johnny Ray Foote and I currently reside at 310 West 48th here in Odessa. I'm giving the statement about the death of an employee at Permian mall at about 12:15 today. Jack Smith, my boss, sent me out to look under all the bridges for Velma. Velma had been getting threats from somebody and when she didn't show up for work, we started looking for her. We have six bridges at the mall and I looked under all of them. I never saw her under any of the bridges. I did have a clear view under all the bridges, except for that a little bit later, about one o', clock, the police officers found her under one of the bridges. The bridge she was located was on the northwest side. I checked the bridge where she was found and I didn't see her. I saw her after the officer found her, but I didn't see her before. Where she was found was the first bridge that I checked. I have known her for about a year now. I don't know of anybody that she has had problems with. I don't know of anybody who would want to kill her. She had talked to all of us at work about getting threats she had been receiving. She told me she was getting obscene phone calls. I don't remember how long she said she'd been getting the calls. She didn't say anything else about the calls, end quote. So for several months after Velma's slaying, Odessa police investigated the case and gathered evidence. They developed a very rough composite sketch of the man Sally had seen leaving the area early that morning. Although I don't know whether it was actually circulated to the public or just shown to potential witnesses. Crime Stoppers offered a reward for information leading to an indictment of a suspect. And then I don't know what else was done to investigate velma's murder in 1982. The police file I was given jumps from the original incident reports right to June 1983, when police resumed looking at Johnny Ray Foote. Johnny had submitted several polygraphs and had denied the murder each time. Finally, after another, Polly the the police told him he had failed. Foote's attorney later wrote, a police officer testified under oath that it was standard operating procedure in the Odessa Police Department to tell suspects they had failed when they had, in fact passed a lie detector test, end quote. Johnny had given numerous unsatisfactory responses to investigators over the course of several interviews. It's safe to say they were all in on Johnny and they wanted to scare him into confessing. Johnny had Left town for a time several months after the murder, visiting his brother in Amarillo. He returned to Odessa and on June 1, 1983, was now living with his cousin Wayne in the Wincrest apartments where Velma had lived. Detective allaire learned that Johnny was back at the Permian mall office, and he went over there and struck up a conversation with a sergeant Beam and an officer Thomas. He was careful not to bring up the subject of Velma nesset. Instead, the officers discussed other subjects like houses, electricity, other cases and so on. According to the detective, Johnny kept bringing up the subject of Velma nesset. His notes say, quote, johnny seemed to me to be paranoid and either wanting to talk about it more in detail or else just trying to get information. Sergeant Beam also felt this way. It was clear to me in reading detective Allaire's notes about this conversation that Johnny felt police had been harassing him and he was defensive and ready when, with a whole slew of answers to what he felt like were continuing questions about his possible guilt. He said things like, when I get mad, I throw things. I don't stab people. Maybe I didn't see Velma in the culvert when I searched it because she had been refrigerated after she was killed and then moved there after I checked it. I was accused of a rape in Arkansas, but I got that straightened out. I'd be happy to come in and take another polygraph since I failed the last one. Remember at the polygraph that I cried and then got real mad? The detective says, yes, well, you made me real mad. I have a bad temper. I guess my alibi with my brother isn't any good. What if I have another alibi? The detective asked, who is it? Johnny said, pam. She used to work here at the mall. The detective said, well, why don't you have her come in and give us a statement? Johnny said, I don't know where she's at. Detective Allaire said, well, finding her might be worth it, wouldn't it? Johnny's answer was, yes, I guess so. Johnny said, surely some of the people at the apartments across the street would have seen something. The detective responded, we talked to a lot of people. Johnny said, remember that sketch you showed me? It looks like someone who used to work at the mall. So it sounded a lot like Johnny was trying to put the blame on someone else. And detective Allaire's notes at the end of this say, quote, most of these comments and questions came from Johnny voluntarily, end quote. I have zero details on this, but around this time, the Odessa police asked the FBI to come up with a profile of their killer. Whatever the profile was, it lined up with the man whom police already considered their prime suspect. In early October 1983. Velma's case was the Crime Stoppers crime of the Week, with a thousand dollar reward for information offered. It said police believed the killer was waiting for Velma, which would mean he was watching her and knew her routine. Detectives believed Johnny would know Velma's routine quite well.
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You've never been one to settle, stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now. Not a chance. At Capella University, we help you catch what you're chasing because you've always had the drive. Now go earn the degree Capella University. What can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more.
- [37:08]
C
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renew renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures On September.
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29, 1983, Detective Hawley and Detective Traveland went to the Winstead Apartments and asked Johnny if if he would mind coming to the police department to go over his original statement from April 1982 with them. Once at the station, he was asked to recount what happened that day, April 19, 1982. He arrived at work at 5am drank two cups of coffee and then went and turned on the sprinklers around the mall's outdoor grassy areas. Then he perused the mall roof and the parking lot looking for anything that might need fixing and then he began to repair the sprinkler heads that he had noted needed to be fixed. Around 11:30 he went to the office area for lunch and at 12:15pm he overheard Jack Smith, aka Smitty, discussing with Nancy Nold that Velma was missing and they should send someone out to check the drainage ditches. He was going back to work, so Johnny said he would check the drainage ditches and he did so, including the one that Velma was eventually found in and he didn't find her. He said he even checked it from both ends, peering inside from both the north and south ends and saw nothing. But this time he added, quote, he hadn't seen her, possibly because of his having worked with the PBC cement glue and he might have been a little messed up on it. Johnny said he had no idea why he had failed the polygraph and he agreed to take another. Once again, he denied having anything to do with killing velma. Nesset On October 18, Detective Traveland went over to Johnny's apartment at the Windcrest Apartments. Johnny had requested that a detective come and see him. He told Detective Traveland he wanted to know about his polygraph results. The detective said, well get dressed and we'll go to the station and talk about it. At the station he gave Johnny a cup of coffee and went to get the results. Before reading him the results, he read Johnny his Miranda warnings and asked if he understood his rights and Johnny responded yes. Then Detective Travelin told Johnny that according to the test results, he failed three questions. Johnny responded that he had told the truth on the test and didn't know why he'd failed. The detective said, the only reason you would have failed is if you lied. Johnny repeated that he'd been truthful. The detective said if you committed this Murder, you should tell me. He pointed out to Johnny that if he kept lying it would be built up inside him. Johnny asked if he knew about the murder, what would he get? I think he meant in terms of a prison sentence. Detective Travelin said he couldn't promise anything and Johnny should just give a statement. Quote, at this time Johnny told this writer to get out his typewriter because he was ready to give a statement, end quote. Detective Traveland read Johnny his rights again, which Johnny said he understood. Then Johnny admitted to the murder. According to Detective Traveland. Then Johnny read and signed the statement and his signature was notarized by Detective Allaire. Then the detective told Johnny he wanted to get a recorded statement as well. So Johnny repeated his entire statement and a recording was made in the tape placed into evidence. I took a look at the written and notarized statement. It is on a typed form with disclaimers, all of which are an initial jrf. Johnny acknowledges his right to a lawyer. He waives these rights voluntarily. He says nobody has mistreated, threatened or forced him in any way to make this statement and nobody gave him anything or promised him anything to make the statement. I do not want to talk to a lawyer before making this statement and I wish to make it of my own free will. He initialed that statement so his statement at the time read, quote, I got to work at 5am and I turned on the water. I made my run on the roof. And after this I met Velma walking to work. When I met Velma, I met her on the concrete in the ditch and then forced her underneath the bridge where I raped her. And then I killed her with a knife. I killed her by stabbing her with my knife in the throat area. I think I also cut her above her pubic area. After I killed her, I left her under the bridge and went back to watering. I would like to say I don't know why I did it. I think I might be crazy. After I killed her, I think I threw the knife in the dirt parking lot, end quote. Okay, so it's not the most detailed statement. But Johnny did seem to know where on her body Velma was stabbed and injured and where the butcher knife was found. Of course the question is, did Johnny know this information because he did it or because everyone, including the police, talked about it openly? An arrest warrant was issued for Johnny Ray Foote. At the same time, a search warrant affidavit was written up by Detective Billy Hammett of the Odessa Police Crimes Against Persons Division to obtain the head hair and pubic hair of Johnny Foote for comparison to human hair samples collected at the scene of the crime and on and around the victim it states that, quote it is the belief of the affiant the Johnny Ray Foote on or about 4-19-1982 intentionally and knowingly caused the death of Velma Nesset by stabbing her with a knife End quote Just as an aside I'd like to say here that I have no idea what hairs they were planning on using for comparison the 1982 case materials that I have do not reflect any hair being found on Velma other than the one on her right hand that was believed to be her own two days after Johnny's arrest on October 20th detective James Long interviewed Johnny again his notes say, quote on this date while interviewing Johnny Foote about the murder of Velma Nessette he described the knife that he said he had used in the commission of the offense as being a butcher knife with a blade of about 51 a half to 7 inches in length he stated that he had found the knife in the parking lot of the Mall by J.C. penneys and that after the murder of Nesset he had taken the knife and while driving next to the dirt employee parking lot he had thrown it he stated that he didn't notice where it landed and that he never went back to retrieve it I then showed the butcher knife to Foot that had been recovered at Permian Mall on 26 April 1982. Foote observed the butcher knife and stated that it appeared like the one he had used but that he couldn't be sure because when he found it that morning it was dark and foggy and he really couldn't see the knife that well A criminal case naming Johnny Foote as the defendant was filed on October 18, 1983. He was charged with first degree murder indictment for first degree murder by a grand jury promptly followed and prosecutors indicated they might seek the death penalty Johnny's defense attorneys John Hostenbach and Cynthia Clack had an uphill battle because of the confession signed by their client but they also hoped to benefit from timing A man named Happy Howrey had disappeared from the Odessa area one week after Velma's murder 68 year old happy was a shoe salesman at the Permian Mall and was found beaten to death in Big Spring. Whispers of connections between the two cases had been rampant in fact, rumors persisted that Happy had been a witness to Velma's murder which is why he was then killed but in Happy's case a suspect had been identified and charged and the defense attorney suggested to the judge in a pretrial hearing that perhaps Velma had been killed by the same pair of itinerant killers who were believed to have killed Happy. Yep, Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole. The defense told the judge that two other murders in Odessa that same week had been attributed to Toole and Lucas. Their presence in Odessa made them suspects in Velma's case, too, especially as there was no evidence against Johnny. The judge commented that the Lucas and Toole theory, quote, ordinarily would be irrelevant, but here you've got a couple of homicidal maniacs that are traveling all across the nation, end quote. The prosecution countered that both men had been interviewed and had denied killing Velma before trial. Johnny Foote underwent psychological evaluations to ensure that he was competent to stand trial. His defense attorney, Cynthia Clack, later wrote, Johnny was a man with an intelligence quotient only a point or two above the classification for retardation, end quote. Johnny had been evaluated over five different in person sessions by a psychologist named James Olson, whose January 23, 1984 report stated that Johnny had below average intelligence, learning impairments and evidence of possible brain damage. Johnny, who claimed to have been interrogated by Odessa Police 19 times. The 20th was the time he confessed further. He passed a lie detector test given to him during a continuance of the trial in February 1984. The test administrator was one of the first licensed polygraphers in Texas. After all this, the defense moved for the case against their client to be dismissed. At a pretrial hearing before Judge Joe Connolly. They argued that the state had failed to try Johnny within 120 days of arrest as required by state law. The prosecutor had fallen ill and the assistant district attorney's child was ill, so the trial had been delayed. Further. The defense argued that their client, who was mentally challenged after a childhood incident causing brain damage, had been railroaded by the Odessa police and had finally confessed after being harassed for 18 months. Several witnesses would testify that Johnny was with them on the morning Velma was slain. There was no evidence implicating him other than the air quote, confession, and he had passed a polygraph. The defense introduced testimony from OG Mall security officers Morris and Gilbert, who testified about Johnny, arousing their suspicions on the day Velma was killed by arguing about why he had not seen her in the culvert. The judge denied the defense motion to quash Johnny's confession and denied the motion to dismiss. The trial would proceed. Given that ruling, Johnny's defense attorneys requested a speedy trial. As their Client was sitting in jail, unable to post the $40,000 bond. The judge set a trial date of May 14th. Johnny Foote's trial was sensational, with a sequestered jury and contentious exchanges between the prosecutor and the defense attorneys. The trial kicked off with prosecution witness Darryl Gilbert, the off duty Odessa police officer who was working security at the Permian Mall on the day Velma was killed. He told the jury about being extremely concerned about Velma, who was very reliable and dependable. You yet had not shown up for work. He talked about going to her apartment and then reconstructing her walk to work the short blocks from her place. He told the jury about finding her body in the culvert and the gash in her throat. And he talked about Johnny Foot's failing to find Velma even though she was in the culvert. He said he had searched Sally Smith. The witness who had seen a man walking away from the crime scene around 4:30 that morning testified about what she had seen, saying, just the fact that he was out there was what struck me as being odd. She also testified that Johnny could not be the man she saw because he was with her on the morning of the murder. He had gotten to work around 4:45am punched in at 5, and they were together until about 7am Velma was attacked and killed on her way to work between 4:30 and 5am under questioning from the defense attorney, Sally said there was no way Johnny could have killed Velma that morning. Other co workers of Velma's backed this up. Gail M. Testified that morning she carpooled to work with Johnny and his roommate and cousin Wayne. She picked him up in her van around 4:15am and they went straight to work and had a cup of coffee around 4:30. Gail also testified that she was a very close friend of Johnny's and she saw absolutely nothing unusual about him that morning and he had no blood on him. If Gail was telling the truth, there was no time in the timeline in which Johnny could have killed Velma. Dave C. Testified about finding the butcher knife in the parking lot at the mall. Lab technicians called by the defense testified that no blood or hair was found on the knife. There was no evidence linking the knife to the murder or to Johnny whatsoever. And the prosecutors even admitted they weren't positive it was the murder weapon. The defense presented witnesses such as the pathologist who testified that the details of Johnny's confession didn't match up with the evidence. They also put on a psychiatrist and psychologist who testified that Johnny's limited mental capacity made him extremely malleable, impressionable and amenable to intimidation. A Dr. Noi Nevis, a psychiatrist at the Permian Basin Mental Health and Mental Retardation center, testified that Johnny had suffered brain damage from being abused as a child. He also maintained that he was a heavy drinker and borderline mentally retarded, as he put it. Johnny's mental state rendered him unable to handle stress and making a false confession to end police harassment was consistent with his psychological condition. Dr. Olson, the psychologist who had met with Johnny extensively, also testified the that Johnny had an inability to foresee the consequences of his confession. He felt he would be cleared if he would confess. Then he could marry his girlfriend and join the Navy with a clear slate. He would gain the initial gratification of getting them off his back and clearing his record so he could go about his life, Olson said. Olson also maintained that Johnny was extremely naive about the legal system. Again going to his misconception that if he just confessed, it would all go away. Johnny's girlfriend, Ellen Barker, testified that she had visited him in jail shortly after he gave his written and taped confessions. He told her he, quote, admitted doing the murder because he needed help and to get everyone off his back, end quote. The defense also introduced evidence about nationwide serial killers Toole and Lucas having killed two other Odessans that same week. They also asked Odessa police detective James Long about his interactions with Toole and Lucas. He testified that he had brought Lucas to the Permian Mall to see if he recognized the scene, but he had not. Neither man admitted to killing Velma, although they copped to the two other murders in Odessa, one of which was Happy the shoe salesman. The jury was allowed to look at photos the defense team had commissioned of a female PI lying in the middle of the culvert where Velma was found. The point of the photos was to show how dark it was inside the tunnel and proved that it was possible that Johnny was really didn't see Velma when he looked in there. As you can hear from the trial, there was zero evidence linking Johnny to Velma's murder other than his somewhat vague and erroneous confession. It took the jury three hours to decide there was reasonable doubt. Johnny was acquitted on May 19, 1984. A juror who was interviewed by investigators told them, none of us thought he did it. Defense attorney Cynthia Clack later criticized the police investigation, saying the they did nothing to try to identify the possible suspect that Sally Smith had seen walking away from the mall around the time of the murder. They had made a sketch but as soon as they decided that sketch could be Johnny, it seems they stopped using it. Furthermore, she said, police had failed to get a statement from Velma's co worker, Gail M. Who ended up testifying that she had carpooled with and been with Johnny Foote the entire time period during which the murder was believed to have been committed. After the acquittal, the other defense attorney, John Hostenbach, said, quote, I hope the district attorney's office doesn't quit. I hope they can find the person who did it. But as it seems is the case in many homicide investigations in which the investigators get tunnel vision on one suspect, when that suspect, the focus of the investigator's time and attention for months, or in this case, years, was eliminated, it took the wind out of the Odessa Authority's sails. The case went dormant for more than two decades.
- [52:46]
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You've never been one to settle, stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now. Not a chance. At Capella University, we help you catch what you're chasing because you've always had the drive. Now go earn the degree. Capella University. What can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more.
- [53:46]
C
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1.1percent bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA NSIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, LLC SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures.
- [54:49]
A
Starting in 2006, Velma's case was reinvestigated after a curious turn of events brought it to the attention of contemporary investigators. In October 2006, Johnny Ray Foote, who had been acquitted of Velma's murder in May of 1984, called the Odessa police and spoke with Detective Gerke. Johnny inquired about the status of the investigation and wanted to know whether they had any suspects. Detective Gerke thought it very curious that Johnny suddenly resurfaced after 22 years asking about the case. But that wasn't all. Around the same time, Texas Rangers captain Barry Caver had been contacted by Johnny's defense attorney, Cynthia Clack, who was unnerved by a recent phone call she had received from M. Hensley. You'll recall Hensley was one of the two prime suspects in the case and had never been ruled out as Velma's killer. In the phone call, Hensley had identified himself as a police officer in Florence, Texas, and told Ms. Clack that he was one of the original suspects in the case, giving some significant details about why police were interested in him. He was very inquisitive about the status of the investigation and wanted Ms. Klak to let him look over the case file, which of course she could not do due to attorney client privilege. Ms. Klak recorded the conversation and handed the tape over to Ranger Sergeant Juan Enrique Lozano and savvy Ms. Clack also snagged a Dr. Pepper can Hensley had left in her office. The Rangers collected it and took it into evidence. This was really odd, right? The two prime suspects in the Nesset case coming out of the woodwork around the same time and asking questions. The whole incident sparked interest on the part of the Texas Rangers in the unsolved case. Let me explain here for those who don't know. The Texas Rangers, part of the state's Department of Public Safety, are essentially the equivalent of the Texas State Police. On November 14, 2006, Rangers Sergeant Lozano and Jess Malone met with Odessa Police Detective Michael Gerke at the Odessa pd Gerke is now the Odessa police chief. But then Detective Gerke gave Ranger Sergeant Lozano a copy of the case file and crime scene photographs from the initial investigation. They also reviewed the physical evidence from Vilma's crime scene and realized there were a lot of evidentiary items that had never been tested. The Rangers and the Odessa detectives agreed that the Odessa Police Department would submit some evidentiary items from the crime scene to the Texas DPS crime lab for DNA testing. These were the steak knife, the folding yellow handled knife, a scarf found near Velma's body, Velma's fingernail clippings, Velma's blue blouse, Velma's black pants, Velma's underwear, her bra, her blue coat, the hair found on her right hand, her stockings, and her blue tennis shoes. When the lab reports came in, they contained information that would reinvigorate Velma's case. A stain on the lower right portion of the outside of Velma's coat proved to be semen. And shockingly, even though the coat had been stored in the Odessa Police evidence room since 1982, the seminal fluid stain still yielded a viable Single source male STR DNA profile suitable for entry into CODIS. This was done in July 2009, but no hits were generated. The male STR DNA profile was also compared to the DNA of the suspect who had been brought to trial, Johnny Ray Foote. They were inconsistent. Johnny was vindicated, finally absolved of any suspicion. But even the Texas Rangers were not equipped to do much after CODIS failed to yield a hit and the prime suspect was also ruled out by DNA. The Rangers checked in on the case from time to time, but nothing happened until Texas Ranger Sergeant Brian Birney took on the case in 2009. Reviewing the case file, he observed that the other prime suspect, M. Hensley, had never been eliminated by DNA. So on July 2, 2010, he submitted the Dr. Pepper can Hensley had left in Cynthia Klack's office for DNA analysis. After testing, the DPS lab notified Bernie that the can did not contain enough usable DNA to be used for identification or comparison. So Hensley was still not eliminated. Bernie decided it was time to interview him. Hensley was living in Liberty Hill, Texas, and was a retired police officer who worked part time as a bailiff. On April 15, 2011, Ranger Birnie contacted Hensley at his place of employment. Birnie's notes say Hensley was very nervous and highly suspicious, but he agreed to provide a sample of his DNA to be used in the investigation. Ranger Birney collected a buccal swab and submitted it to the DPS crime lab for comparison to the DNA of the unknown male contained in sperm fraction located on Velma's coat. The testing excluded. M. Hensley A Texas Ranger report dated June 2011 says Ranger Birney has identified no other particular persons of interest associated with this investigation. Ranger Birney respectfully requests this file be suspended, and it was Nothing happened on Velma's case for nine more years. This is the end of Part one of the Velma Nessert case. Part two is available right now.
- [59:52]
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Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.