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Hello, I'm Kevin DeYoung, pastor at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina, and you are listening to Doctrine Matters. We want this podcast to equip Christians with a better understanding of the rich theology that undergirds our faith. And hopefully along the way, we'll be looking at some that have even been misunderstood or maybe threatened in the church's history. We'll point out the biblical evidence, the arguments, and work together to reshape our thinking, be transformed by the renewal of our minds with scripture and reason as we think theologically together. Because, as the title of the podcast tells you, Doctrine Matters. Just a couple more weeks on ecclesiology, the doctrine of the church, and now thinking really about church government polity, which is not at the top of people's list of what they think is most exciting or they're most eager to study. And yet anyone who has had a bad experience in church, probably at some level, the negative experience has had to do with negative leadership, or maybe not even bad people, but bad structures or a lack of accountability or lack of clarity. So it's really important to know what the Bible says about how Christ means to govern his church. He doesn't tell us everything about every circumstance involved in the governance of the body of Christ, how you should think of every possible committee, the structure, the way you shepherd the congregation, the times, the style. So there's lots of things that are left to Christian wisdom. And yet we want to be clear about. Actually, there are some more things than we might think that God tells us. And right at the top of what is most important are the offices in the church. In Ephesians chapter four. It's amazing that this passage talks about Christ ascending into heaven and giving gifts to his church. You think about what would this present be? The church is excited, like kids on Christmas morning to open their presence. Jesus himself has wrapped up a gift. And what is the gift? Well, we know the Holy Spirit is the promised gift. But in addition to that, and the Spirit working through a subsequent gift, and what we read in Ephesians 4, the gift are those offices which Christ has given to the church. Talks about apostles, prophets, evangelists. There are disagreements among Christians about how to understand each of those offices. Just real quickly, I think, because Ephesians 2:20 says that the foundation of the church are the prophets and apostles, and Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, then I think these offices of apostle and prophet no longer exist. There may be analogous ministries. A church planter, for example, may have some characteristics, but capital, a apostle and a thus saith The Lord prophet, these were foundational. You don't build a basement and then four stories up build another basement. You only do that once and the rest of the building is built on top of it. So apostle and prophet, part of the non repeatable foundation of the church. And then this other office of evangelists we see Philip and others are evangelists in the church. And even Calvin says, well, this doesn't exist, although maybe once in a while it does. Others think of this as kind of like also maybe a church planter type of person who comes in and does a pioneering work. But let's deal with the one that we for sure know continues in the church. And that is the office of pastor teacher. And I think we're talking about, again, some people think we're talking about two different offices. And I'm going to look at them as one, the pastor teacher or that teacher who is also a pastor. They're overlapping categories, but they're not identical. So we're thinking about the shepherd teacher in the congregation, what we would know today as a pastor. So that's one of the chief gifts that Christ gives to his church. So that's an overarching category. Now let's think more concretely about the number of offices in the church because we use a number of different terms and depending on your church tradition you may use different ones and some of them overlap, some of them are identical, some of them are seen to be distinct. In the Reformed tradition there is a long standing debate about the number of continuing offices in the church. Calvin, for example, listed four elders, deacons, pastors and teachers. So he Understood that Ephesians 4 passage should be talking at the end there about two distinct offices, the teacher, sometimes they would call doctors. And probably the closest analogy today might be a seminary professor. Actually the Reformed Church in America, which is the denomination I grew up in, though it's somewhat in the background. They are a for office denomination. They call them a General Synod professor of theology. And just a few people are given that title, but pastor, doctor or teacher of the church and then elder or deacon. Most theologians have not, however followed Calvin in that regard, arguing instead that well, we don't see a developed office of teacher or doctor theologian in the New Testament and that shepherds and teachers in Ephesians 4:11 refer to one office, that that's the best way to understand the Greek construction and the use of the definite article that we're talking about one office. And I think that's right. So if that's one, the question then is whether we have two continuing offices or three. Many Reformed thinkers have insisted on three offices. Elder, deacon, pastor. The key issue here is that the pastor in this understanding is not simply a certain kind of elder, like a teaching elder. We'll come to that view in a moment, but a different office altogether. There are good reasons for this three office view, which tends to be more common in the Dutch Reformed tradition. You could argue Ephesians 4:11 refers to pastors, but not to elders, so that must be a distinct office. You could also point out that Paul's letter to Timothy and his letter to Titus suggests that these men held an office distinct from the office of elder, their instructions about elders. But he seems to be writing to one who held a different office. Indeed, would Titus be called upon to appoint elders if he was also an elder? Another argument, the Old Testament had elders to rule over the people, and priests to teach and administer the sacraments. So might that be reflected in the New Testament? Elders from among the people as leaders and guides, and then one a priest and a pastor, we call them in the New Testament to teach and to administer the sacred rites. And then a final argument says even in churches that have teaching elders and ruling elders, and consider those just one office, the teaching elder is still usually called the pastor and functions more like he holds a separate office. Now, what about those who hold a two office view? And this tends to be more associated with Presbyterian tradition originating from the British Isles. And. And there are good reasons for that as well. You could argue that grammatically, Ephesians 4:11 is better understood as one class of officer with two different orders rather than a distinct office. You could also point out from 1 Timothy 5:17. There we envision we hear from Paul a certain kind of elder who specializes in preaching and teaching. So all elders rule, but some are given the special task and privilege of public teaching. Another argument, Acts 20:17, Paul calls for the elders, I.e. the Presbuteroi of the church, to come before he leaves Ephesus. And then in Acts 20:28, while Paul is addressing the elders, he commands them to keep watch over the flock as overseers, the Greek word episcopos, and to pastor, the Greek word poimonain in the verb the church of God. So we see there those three presbuteroi, episcopoi and poimon, Bishop episcopus, elder, presbuteros, pastor, poimon. They're used interchangeably. And then a final argument says the New Testament sometimes refers to overseers and deacons. Philippians 1, 1 Timothy 3 sometimes refers to apostles and elders, sometimes to just elders. But the New Testament never speaks of pastors, elders and deacons of a given church. If pastors were a third office, we would expect to see it listed at times in place of overseer or elder. So I think there are very good reasons for both views. I don't think it has to be a weightier matter of the law though. Each church and denomination will have to come to a determination of what they think the Scripture teaches. I'm in the PCA and the PCA holds to a two office view and I find those arguments convincing. Though I served for many years in denomination with elders, deacons and pastors and as I said, actually professors of theology too. But now in the pca I'm very happy and convinced with these arguments that teaching elders and ruling elders are one office and that Deakins then is a second office. Now both sides really often look very similar that even in a two office view, like Presbyterians, you still have the teaching elders are given the title of pastor. They often function as a first among equals. Only the pastors administer the sacraments. The pastors are the ones who preach. So whether those duties are set aside for a teaching elder as opposed to a ruling elder, or whether you call those pastors pastor because you believe it's a separate office or not, the function is often very similar. Both sides should desire to honor all of those men who serve in office. Honoring deacons as those who have watch over the physical needs of the church. We see the proto deacons in Acts chapter six and we want to honor those deacons. In many churches they end up being sort of junior elders. Well, here are the young guys. They're not quite ready to be elders, but we'll make them deacons. And it does sometimes happen that you're a deacon and you become an elder. But they are distinct callings and gifts and we should not think of a deacon as something less than just a training ground to then graduate to be an elder. I really respected, you know, one man in particular I'm thinking of who was, was asked to consider being an elder in a church where I served. And he, he honestly said, I believe my gifts are being a deacon. I've been a deacon for many, many years. That's where I want to continue. Thank you for asking me, but I think these are my gifts and he knew himself well. So we want to honor deacons not as in need of graduating to something else, but as serving a vital function and God given office in the church and not only then deacons. But we want to honor elders. I do think with the two office view, one of the strengths is I think there it can be a better way to honor the ruling elders, sometimes called the lay elders among us. I do appreciate that. I think that's a real strength. And in the Southern Presbyterian tradition to honor those men that they have a parity of office. Yes, the pastor in particular, the preaching pastor, is going to be a first among equals. He is going to exert unique influence and authority if he is the one preaching week after week. And yet when it comes to the session voting, he has one vote, as all of the elders do. God desires to rule his church through these officers. Now we'll come next week to talk about some of the differences in does he only exercise authority through the officers? Or what about the congregation? Or is there an office of bishop that's above the office of the local church pastor? But what we see here clearly in Scripture we see a number of times these two offices, elder and deacon, and they are offices that are set aside for qualified godly men there to be men serving in these offices. We see that clear from not only the instructions about being a one woman man, so it's assumed that they will be men, but also that the nature of church office is to possess some authority, even at least in the pca, even a deacon as a church office possesses some authority. And this is fitting for men to possess in the church, as we see in First Timothy chapter two. That it is not fitting, Paul says, giving a transcultural argument going back to the very beginning, to the fall, and to the created order, that it is for men, not for women to exercise authority over men in the context of the church. Two things that women are not to do. They are not to teach and exercise authority over men in the congregation. And those are the two things in particular that elders are called to do, that they must be apt to teach and that they govern. So the office of elder and the office of deacon are set aside for qualified men, and those men are to be honored for the office that they hold. And those who aspire to those offices aspire. A noble thing. There ought to be good training, good vision, vetting. Congregation ought to vote on those men, and we ought to pray for them as they lead and serve the body of Christ. You've been listening to Doctrine Matters with me, Kevin DeYoung, your host and teacher. If you'd like to learn more about the topics we talked about today, you can check out my book, Daily Doctrine. It's available in print or audio from Crossway.org and you may want to talk to your pastor or a trusted friend who can recommend other good resources. The Doctrine Matters podcast is produced by Crossway, a nonprofit ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the truth of God's word through publishing gospel centered content. To learn more, visit Crossway.org until next week, I'm Kevin DeYoung, and this has been Doctrine Matters. Thanks for joining us.