Podcast Summary: "What Is Church Government?"

Doctrine Matters with Kevin DeYoung
Host: Kevin DeYoung (produced by Crossway)
Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Kevin DeYoung delves into the often overlooked yet critical subject of church government (polity) as part of his series on ecclesiology, the doctrine of the church. He argues that while church structure and leadership may not sound exciting, understanding them is both biblically grounded and practically essential, especially given how difficulties in church life often stem from issues with leadership and structure. DeYoung examines the biblical basis for church offices, reviews various historical and contemporary views, and explores why these distinctions matter for the health and governance of the Christian church.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Church Government Matters

• (00:30–01:30)

  • Church government is foundational, not a peripheral detail. Many negative church experiences can be traced back to poor leadership structures, lack of accountability, or unclear governance.
  • The Bible does not provide a detailed manual for every aspect of governance but gives significant guidance on offices and leadership.

• Quote:

  • "Anyone who has had a bad experience in church, probably at some level, the negative experience has had to do with negative leadership, or maybe not even bad people, but bad structures or a lack of accountability or lack of clarity." (00:51, Kevin DeYoung)

2. Gifts and Offices Given by Christ

• (01:30–04:00)

  • Ephesians 4 describes Christ giving gifts to the church, which include offices such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers.
  • The foundational roles of apostles and prophets do not continue today—these were non-repeatable, establishing the church's foundation.
  • Evangelists are seen either as rare, ongoing roles or as analogous to modern church planters.
  • The pastor-teacher is the enduring and essential office in contemporary church life.

• Quote:

  • "Apostle and prophet, part of the non repeatable foundation of the church... you only do that once and the rest of the building is built on top of it." (02:28, Kevin DeYoung)

3. Number and Nature of Church Offices

• (04:00–10:00)

  a. Historical Debates: Calvin and Reformers

  • Calvin identified four offices: elders, deacons, pastors, and teachers (doctors), though most Reformed theologians see only two or three continuing offices.
  • Some traditions (like the Reformed Church in America) maintain four offices, but most find insufficient biblical evidence for a separate teacher/doctor office.

  b. The Three-Office View

  • Dutch Reformed tradition: elder, deacon, and pastor are distinct offices.
  • Arguments for three offices:
    • Ephesians 4:11 lists pastors but not elders—suggesting distinct roles.
    • Timothy and Titus appear to hold an office distinct from elders.
    • Old Testament parallels between elders and priests/teachers.
    • Functional differences in many churches between teaching elders (“pastors”) and ruling elders.

  c. The Two-Office View

  • More typical in Presbyterian churches from the British tradition: the biblical offices are elder (encompassing teaching and ruling elders) and deacon.
  • Arguments for two offices:
    • Ephesians 4:11 grammar suggests pastor and teacher are one office.
    • 1 Timothy 5:17 defines all elders as rulers, but some as especially focused on teaching.
    • Terms like elder (presbuteros), overseer (episkopos), and pastor (poimen) are used interchangeably in texts such as Acts 20:17–28.
    • New Testament never lists “pastors, elders, and deacons” together for a local church.
  • Both models often look functionally similar in practice, with teaching elders/pastors as “first among equals.”

• Quote:

  • "In the pca I'm very happy and convinced with these arguments that teaching elders and ruling elders are one office and that Deakins then is a second office." (11:44, Kevin DeYoung)

4. Practical Implications and Honor for Offices

• (10:00–15:00)
  • Both elders and deacons should be honored for their distinct and vital roles, not viewed as hierarchical steps.
  • DeYoung stresses against seeing the diaconate as merely a “training ground” for eldership.
  • Example given of a man devoted to the office of deacon:
    "He honestly said, I believe my gifts are being a deacon. I've been a deacon for many, many years. That's where I want to continue. Thank you for asking me, but I think these are my gifts and he knew himself well." (13:25, Kevin DeYoung)
  • In the two-office (PCA) model, the parity of elders is highlighted—each has an equal vote in church sessions, though a teaching elder may carry unique influence through preaching.

5. Qualifications and Gender for Church Offices

• (15:00–17:00)

  • Scriptural qualifications (e.g., 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1): those serving as elders and deacons must be “qualified godly men.”
  • Paul’s instructions (1 Timothy 2) are interpreted as reserving authoritative teaching and governance roles in the church for men, on the basis of created order and transcultural principles.

• Quote:

  • "Two things that women are not to do. They are not to teach and exercise authority over men in the congregation. And those are the two things in particular that elders are called to do, that they must be apt to teach and that they govern." (16:42, Kevin DeYoung)

6. Encouragement to the Church

• (17:00–End)
  • Calls churches to rigorous training, vision for leadership, and proper congregational participation in recognizing and supporting church officers.
  • Emphasizes prayer, honor, and respect for those serving.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Church government… is not at the top of people's list… yet anyone who has had a bad experience in church, probably at some level, the negative experience has had to do with negative leadership, or maybe not even bad people, but bad structures or a lack of accountability or lack of clarity." (00:34, Kevin DeYoung)

• "Apostle and prophet, part of the non repeatable foundation of the church... you only do that once and the rest of the building is built on top of it." (02:28, Kevin DeYoung)

• "Now both sides really often look very similar… both sides should desire to honor all of those men who serve in office." (12:45, Kevin DeYoung)

• "So we want to honor deacons not as in need of graduating to something else, but as serving a vital function and God given office in the church..." (13:12, Kevin DeYoung)

• "I do think with the two office view, one of the strengths is… a better way to honor the ruling elders, sometimes called the lay elders among us." (13:49, Kevin DeYoung)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Why Church Government Matters: 00:30–01:30
• Biblical Offices in Ephesians 4: 01:30–04:00
• Historical Debates: Number of Offices: 04:00–10:00
• Practical Functionality & Honor: 10:00–15:00
• Qualifications and Gender: 15:00–17:00
• Encouragement and Closing Thoughts: 17:00–End

Tone and Style

Kevin DeYoung’s tone is clear, accessible, and pastoral, intended to instruct without being polemical. He models respect for differing traditions and nuances, while making a firm case for his (PCA, two-office) perspective.

Conclusion

This episode provides a thorough, historically informed, and biblically rooted exploration of how Christ governs his church through ordained offices. DeYoung encourages listeners to value these structures, to honor both elders and deacons in their distinct callings, and to strive for church leadership that is biblically faithful and wisely applied.

For anyone seeking to understand why church government matters—and how to think well about it—this episode offers a blend of practical wisdom and theological clarity.