Podcast Summary: Doctrine Matters with Kevin DeYoung

Episode: What Is the  Nature and Extent of Church Power?
Host: Kevin DeYoung
Date: October 14, 2025
Podcast: Doctrine Matters (Crossway)

Overview:

In this episode, Kevin DeYoung continues his series on ecclesiology by exploring the nature and extent of church power. He draws key distinctions between the church and the state, examines the types of authority vested in the church, and probes the ongoing conversation around the mission of the church. The episode clarifies what spiritual authority the church rightly possesses and what it does not, offering a thoughtful examination of ecclesial power through a Reformed lens.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Distinct Powers of Church and State

• Divinely Ordained Institutions: Both the state and the church are institutions established by God, yet their authority operates differently ([00:45]).

• Scriptural Distinction: DeYoung references Matthew 22 ("render to Caesar..."), highlighting the church's jurisdiction over the spiritual and internal, while the state governs the outward and temporal ([01:15]).

  "The church has been given authority to exercise power relative to the inward spiritual state and consciences of men." — Kevin DeYoung ([01:35])

2. The Nature of Church Power: Ministerial and Declarative

• Key Presbyterian Principles: Church power is "ministerial" (serving Christ) and "declarative" (stating and enforcing God’s Word) ([01:42]–[02:10]).

• Limits of Authority: Church officers, across diverse polities, are called courts because they declare Christ's mind rather than legislate new laws ([02:15]).

  "The church officers do not legislate new ideas. They're called to declare the mind of Christ..." — Kevin DeYoung ([02:28])

3. The Threefold Power of the Church

DeYoung summarizes the traditional Reformed categorization of church power:

a) Power of Dogma: Doctrine and Faith

• Role: The church bears witness to truth, interprets Scripture, and develops confessions and catechisms ([03:05]).
• Scope: This authority is not absolute but serves Christ's claims upon consciences ([03:26]).

b) Power of Ordaining: Order and Governance

• Meaning: Involves rules for church order and the government of its ordinances ([04:00]).

• Voluntary Agreement: Rules like the Book of Church Order are not inerrant and may change, but they structure communal life ([04:45]).

  "We're not binding the consciences... We are voluntarily saying this is how we're going to order." — Kevin DeYoung ([05:05])

c) Power of Distinguishing: Discipline

• Swords vs. Keys: The church holds keys (to open/close membership) rather than the state's sword (physical enforceability) ([05:35]).

• Purpose: To administer spiritual discipline, reflecting the heavenly reality of Christ’s kingdom ([05:55]).

  "We don't have a sword. Swords are used for violently putting people into order... What is a key for? A key is to lock or unlock a door. The keys of the church — the discipline." — Kevin DeYoung ([06:10])

4. Boundaries of Church Authority

• Spiritual Focus: The church’s function is to "proclaim, to administer and to enforce the law of Christ revealed in the Scriptures." ([06:35])

• Jurisdiction: Extends to its own members and limited to doctrine, order, and discipline; does not encompass all aspects of life or every controversy ([07:15]).

  "The nature of Church power extends to those under its care, but it is limited to doctrine, order and discipline." — Kevin DeYoung ([07:22])

5. The Mission of the Church: Word, Deed, and the Great Commission

• Historical Context: References his co-authored book with Greg Gilbert, What is the Mission of the Church? ([07:37])

• Social Justice & Mission: DeYoung weighs the church’s role in acts of mercy, social causes, and transformation. He strikes a distinction between what Christians may do and what the church as an institution is sent to do ([08:28]–[09:05]).

  "We're talking about the mission. That is, what are we sent into the world? What is God saying, 'Church, this is what I want you to accomplish?'" — Kevin DeYoung ([09:12])

• Narrow vs. Broad Mission: Warns against both narrowing mission to mere conversion and broadening it to encompass all good works ([11:05]).

• Apostolic Model: Points to the Book of Acts and Paul’s ministry as models for the church’s focus: evangelism, teaching, planting, and strengthening churches ([12:13]).

  "When mission is everything, mission becomes nothing. And mission creep is very possible and likely." — Kevin DeYoung ([10:55])

6. Clarifying Misconceptions

• Church’s Mission ≠ Every Good Deed: Encourages Christians to be active in society but calls for clarity regarding the corporate mission of the church ([12:41]).

• The Apostolic Pattern: The mission is primarily "the verbal proclamation of Jesus Christ as Savior… and the incorporation of these new believers into a mature, duly constituted church." ([13:38])

  "What Paul aimed to accomplish as a missionary in the first century is an apt description of the mission of the church for every century." — Kevin DeYoung ([14:10])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Uniqueness of Church Power:

  "Church power is a spiritual power pertaining to believers, exercised in a moral and spiritual way and never resorting to force." ([02:58])

• On the Limits of Authority:

  "The church in its capacity as the church... has not been granted authority to address every topic, nor authority to settle every controversy, nor does it have expertise in every area." ([07:05])

• On "Mission Creep":

  "When mission is everything, mission becomes nothing." ([10:55])

• On the Apostolic Model:

  "We see over and over in Paul's missionary journeys... the central work to which he was called was the verbal proclamation of Jesus Christ as Savior." ([13:38])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:45: Introduction of ecclesiology and the distinction between church and state
• 01:42–02:10: Explanation of "ministerial" and "declarative" powers
• 03:05–06:15: The threefold categorization of church authority (dogma, order, discipline)
• 07:22: Summary statement on the extent of church power
• 08:28–10:55: Discussion of the mission of the church, including potential "mission creep"
• 12:13: Description of the apostolic model for church mission

Tone & Language

DeYoung’s tone is clear, instructive, and thoughtful. He roots his argument in Protestant, particularly Reformed, tradition, balancing doctrinal precision with practical application. His language is both accessible and precise, aiming to edify believers and provide theological clarity.

Conclusion

Kevin DeYoung’s episode offers a nuanced understanding of ecclesial power—clarifying its spiritual, non-coercive, and Christ-serving character—and sets boundaries around the church’s mission. He encourages listeners to discern where church authority begins and ends and to keep the Great Commission at the center of ecclesial life and ministry.