Podcast Summary: Doctrine Matters with Kevin DeYoung

Episode: Who Governs the Church?
Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Kevin DeYoung

Overview

In this episode of Doctrine Matters, Kevin DeYoung delves into the critical yet often overlooked subject of church government—exploring who holds authoritative power within the church under Christ. DeYoung walks through four historical models: Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Congregational, and Presbyterian, evaluating each in light of Scripture, history, and practical realities. As a Presbyterian pastor, he ultimately makes a case for Presbyterian polity while fairly acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of other systems.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Church Polity Matters

• DeYoung underscores that church government, or polity, might seem mundane but is vital in determining "who has been given the right under Christ to exercise power within, for, and over the church?"
• Framing the issue with the famous phrase, "Where does the buck stop?" (00:55)

2. Roman Catholic Polity

• Central Feature: The bishop of Rome (the Pope) as the supreme earthly authority in the church (02:20).
• Claims for Papal Authority:
  • Based on Peter's supposed role as supreme apostle and bishop of Rome.
  • Succession from Peter to future popes—“not personal but official.”
• Critique:
  • "Historically, there is no evidence Peter was in Rome, much less its bishop." (03:05)
  • Matthew 16:18's “on this rock” is more likely about Jesus or the apostles collectively, not a unique papal office.
  • Other apostles were foundational (Eph 2:20), with no singular supremacy for Peter.
  • “Peter was hardly a rock. He was about to deny Christ…” (04:11)
  • The power to bind and loose (Matt 16) is later extended to all disciples (Matt 18).
• Historical Development:
  • Other bishops (Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople) historically rivaled Rome.
  • The exclusive authority of the Roman bishop developed over centuries—not evident in the early church.

3. Episcopalian Polity

• Defining Mark: The authority of bishops (episcopoi) over multiple congregations and elders (presbuteroi) (09:27).
• Unique Episcopal Powers:
  • Ordination and jurisdiction over dioceses.
• Arguments in Favor:
  • Apostolic precedent cited, but DeYoung challenges equating apostolic office with bishops, calling it “anachronistic.”
• Critique:
  • "The distinctive peculiarity of episcopacy is that there exists a third order of officers... not granted to the presbuteroi." (11:19)
  • New Testament evidence shows elders, not bishops, participated in ordination and decision-making (Acts 13; 1 Tim 4; Acts 15).
  • Word usage: The terms bishop and elder are used interchangeably in the NT and early church.
  • Even historically, "bishop" was often an honorary or distinguishing title, not a distinct hierarchical office.

4. Congregational Polity

• Key Ideas:
  • Authority resides with the local congregation, especially regarding membership and discipline (19:05).
• Congregational Principle:
  • "The government of the church is administered with the authoritative concurrence of the whole church." (19:25)
  • Elders advise and execute, but final authority rests with members.
• Independency Principle:
  • Each congregation is self-governing, without external authority (20:06).
• Critique:
  • Elders’ biblical titles imply unique authority ("rulers, overseer, shepherds") not merely advisory roles (22:02).
  • "It's hard to see in my mind how the elders can be said to rule and oversee if their decisions are in the most important matters subject to the majority vote of the congregation." (22:18)
  • Old Testament and early Christian models show elders, not whole congregations, exercising key leadership.

5. Presbyterian Polity

• Main Distinctive:
  • Authority is vested collectively in elders, exercised both locally and in broader assemblies (presbyteries, general assemblies) (24:08).
• Inter-congregational Authority:
  • Contrary to the independency principle, “Presbyterians believe there’s warrant for the governing body of one congregation to unite with the governing body of another… for the purpose of joint authority.” (24:49)
• Exegetical Support:
  • Ekklesia in the NT can refer to more than one assembly (Acts 9:31; church in Jerusalem included many gatherings).
  • Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15): Regional assembly of apostles and elders made binding decisions for multiple churches (26:36).
  • The Jerusalem council “was an authoritative determination meant to be followed in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia.” (27:35)
• Nature of Presbyterian Power:
  • Authority “flows up, not down”—higher assemblies don’t “lord it over” lower ones; local sessions are the heartbeat.
  • “Some say higher, but it’s really not a higher power, but the same power in a more general, broader exercise.” (29:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Roman Catholic claims:
  • “Historically, there is no evidence Peter was in Rome, much less its bishop.” (03:05)
  • “Peter was hardly a rock. He was about to deny Christ…” (04:11)
• On Episcopal polity:
  • “Elders, not bishops, were going to carry on that apostolic mantle.” (12:25)
• On Congregationalism:
  • "It's hard to see in my mind how the elders can be said to rule and oversee if their decisions are in the most important matters subject to the majority vote of the congregation." (22:18)
• On Presbyterianism:
  • “Presbyterians believe there’s warrant for the governing body of one congregation to unite with the governing body of another… for the purpose of joint authority.” (24:49)
  • “The point here is how we think about Christ’s government in the Church is, though not perhaps on the order of the doctrine of the Trinity, is extremely practical and important.” (30:05)
• On differences in governance:
  • “Even in a Presbyterian system, it isn’t as if the elders are making all of the decisions in the church, but there are differences.” (18:41)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:55 — Introduction to the main question: “Who governs the church?”
• 02:20–08:50 — Overview and critique of Roman Catholic polity
• 09:27–16:44 — Explanation and critique of Episcopalian polity
• 18:41–21:55 — Congregational polity and its two underlying principles
• 22:02–23:43 — Critique of congregational rule and the independency principle
• 24:08–29:50 — Distinctives of Presbyterian polity, biblical and historical arguments
• 30:05–30:38 — Final reflections on the importance of church government

Tone and Language

DeYoung’s tone throughout is analytical, thorough, and winsome; he combines accessible explanations with scholarly rigor, often using gentle humor and clear analogies (e.g., honorary doctorates, “where does the buck stop?”), and is forthright about his Presbyterian convictions while graciously critiquing other views.

Conclusion

While outlining the strengths and shortcomings of the four main models of church government, DeYoung ultimately presents Presbyterian polity as the most biblically faithful and historically grounded way to ensure “under Christ” leadership in the church. Listeners are encouraged to study Scripture and sound theology when considering this vital topic.