Dixie Disappearance

Summary

Dolly Parton's America – Episode 8: "Dixie Disappearance"

Release Date: December 17, 2019
Host: Jad Abumrad
Producer/Reporter: Shima Oliaee
Podcast Description: In this journey through the “Dollyverse,” host Jad Abumrad explores why Dolly Parton unites people across the political and cultural divide—until she doesn’t. “Dixie Disappearance” investigates the controversy and soul-searching around Dolly Parton’s “Dixie Stampede” dinner theater, the cultural weight of Southern nostalgia, and questions around rewriting history.

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Overview

Episode 8, "Dixie Disappearance," delves into one of the most contentious crossroads in Dolly Parton's career: the rebranding of her dinner show from "Dixie Stampede" to "Dolly Parton's Stampede." The show examines the broader American reckoning with Confederate symbols, the nature of historical memory and erasure, and Dolly’s unique position as both a unifier and a lightning rod for controversy. The episode asks: Can Dolly Parton—famed for her ability to straddle cultural contradictions—bridge an increasingly divided America, or are some lines simply too fraught to cross, even for her?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Contradictions of Dollywood

• Jad, Shima, and “Dollyologist” Allie Tiki visit Pigeon Forge and describe the spectacle and excess of Dollywood, comparing it to Las Vegas.
  • “For a while it's all Smoky Mountains. And then you pull in the Pigeon Forge. Wow, this is a little bit like starting to remind me of Vegas.” (Jad Abumrad, 01:35)
• The centerpiece: Dolly Parton's "Dixie Stampede," a high-energy dinner theater featuring a Civil War-themed competition.

2. A Civil War Showdown—But “Friendly”

• The show splits the audience into “North” and “South”—complete with jeering, competitions, and spectacle:
  • “The whole arena is split in half. On one side you've got the north and on the other side the South.” (Shima Olia, 04:32)
• The Civil War is depicted as a neighborly rivalry—ignoring its violence and its roots in slavery.
  • “Was the Civil War friendly? Wasn't it really about slavery?” (Jad Abumrad & Shima Olia, 06:47)

3. The Antebellum Illusion and the "Tourist Imaginary"

• Patricia Davis (Cultural Studies, Northeastern) calls the Dixie Stampede part of the “tourist imaginary”—a sanitized, glamorous vision of the South that omits slavery.
  • “There is no slavery. There is no discussion of exactly what exploitation led to that grandeur. It's just the grandeur that's displayed up.” (Patricia Davis, 07:11)

4. Spectacular Distraction vs. Historical Reckoning

• The show's dazzling finale, with patriotic pageantry and a giant Dolly, serves to paper over deeper issues.
  • Quote: “As soon as my critical self kicked in, and I thought, hang on, that's an appalling way to write history, there’d be a flamethrower or something to distract.” (Helen Morales, 09:46)
• Helen Morales describes the personal conflict of loving Dolly Parton while feeling uneasy about this aspect of her brand.

5. Charlottesville and a National Conversation (11:07–14:50)

• The 2017 Charlottesville protests around Confederate symbols prompt reevaluation of history, inclusivity, and representation on a national level.
• Aisha Harris of Slate reviews the Dixie Stampede post-Charlottesville, questioning the show’s casual erasure of slavery and confronting aggressive backlash.
  • “Did you grow up with her music?... I think that’s something to celebrate and to kind of look up to.” (Aisha Harris, 14:04)
• Harris’ critique is met with anger—yet she emphasizes she’s speaking as a Dolly fan who believes even beloved icons can have blind spots.

6. Internal Debate and Decision at Dollywood

• Pete Owens (VP, Dollywood) explains that conversations about changing the show had begun before the national controversy.
  • “Everywhere is becoming more diverse, and we want to be as Dolly is, as inclusive as we possibly can.” (Pete Owens, 16:04)
• The Stampede removes Civil War imagery and music numbers, changes team colors, and most significantly, drops “Dixie” from its name.
  • “We made the decision to just remove... just to remove Dixie from the name.” (Pete Owens, 16:49)

7. Community Reactions: Nostalgia, Resistance, & Identity

• The change meets resistance, locally and more broadly—protesters arrive, seeing the removal of “Dixie” as erasure of heritage.
• Conversations with East Tennesseans—many of whom claim kinship with Dolly—reveal a complex relationship to both Union and Confederate histories.
  • “They were okay for 150 years and now all of a sudden they're no good. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.” (Evelyn Miller, 23:50)
• Others at the table advocate for change: “When you know better, you're supposed to do better. Times were different back then. Times are changing.” (Local response, 24:12)

8. Statues, Erasure, and the Mobius Strip of History (25:29–26:27)

• The debate loops: is changing names and removing statues erasing history, or are the monuments themselves a revisionist product?
  • Only 38% of Americans cited slavery as the main cause of the Civil War when polled (25:49).
  • “Clearly, we have a deep problem in this country if a majority of Americans don't think that.” (Jad Abumrad, 26:00)

9. Dolly’s Own Response—Business Sense Meets Compassion (26:56–29:49)

• Dolly herself addresses the name change:
  • “Out of ignorance, people do things you don't know… Never thought about it being, you know, about slavery or any of that. But when it was brought to our attention... I would never want to hurt anybody for any reason... If I've offended one person, as a businesswoman I don’t want to do that.” (Dolly Parton, 26:56)
  • The change is also about expanding the brand beyond the South, acknowledging “Dixie” doesn’t play as well nationally or globally.

10. Ongoing Evolution: From Civil War to Christmas (31:00–31:49)

• The competition at the Stampede is now themed “North Pole vs. South Pole”—a holiday rivalry.
  • “Are the costumes still red and blue? Actually, they've changed... they’re red and green. Why are they red and green? Shima—Christmas. North Pole vs. South Pole. That’s what they’re doing now.” (Pete Owens, 31:45)

11. The Dolly Solution: Inclusion as Legacy (33:05–38:52)

• Tennessee state representative Jeremy Faison—once a defender of Confederate history—changes his mind after learning about the true legacy of Nathan Bedford Forrest, and suggests replacing Forrest’s bust in the state capitol with Dolly Parton's.
  • “In my opinion, Dolly Parton is a Tennessee treasure. But even more than that, Dolly Parton is a national treasure.” (Jeremy Faison, 36:28)
• The episode closes with this emblematic moment, suggesting Dolly’s story—and her willingness to change—is part of a larger conversation about who gets honored and how America remembers its past.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On spectacle and distraction:
  "It's brilliant theater... There'd be a flamethrower or something to distract. It's hard to stay in one place—ironic, serious, critical." – Helen Morales (08:24, 09:46)

• On changing the name:
  "If I've offended one person as a businesswoman, I don't want to do that. So we completely cleared all that out and started over... I just wanted to fix it because I don't want to ever hurt or offend anyone." – Dolly Parton (26:56)

• On historical amnesia:
  "The critics... would agree with you that the reason they wanted her to change it is that the actual story being told in it was itself changing history or not acknowledging history." – Jad Abumrad (24:54)

• On inclusion:
  "I want to make sure we never repeat that again... But I think we can preserve history, tell the truth about history, but also preserve history in such a way that everybody gets included." – Jeremy Faison (37:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:35 – Arriving at Dollywood; introducing the Dixie Stampede
• 03:31–06:19 – Inside the “competition” and spectacle of the dinner show
• 07:11–08:55 – Patricia Davis & the tourist “imaginary” of the antebellum South
• 09:46–10:15 – Helen Morales’ conflicted fandom
• 11:07–12:48 – Charlottesville, Confederate monuments, national reckoning
• 12:48–14:50 – Aisha Harris’ critical review and backlash
• 16:15–17:08 – Pete Owens on the decision to remove “Dixie”
• 19:21–20:10 – Public protests in response to the name change
• 21:00–24:10 – Locals’ reactions, history, and identity
• 26:00–26:27 – Data on public perception of Civil War causes
• 26:56–29:16 – Dolly explains her rationale for the change
• 31:00–31:49 – The show’s new “Christmas” theme
• 33:05–38:52 – Jeremy Faison advocates for Dolly’s bust—a symbolic new legacy

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Tone and Narrative Style

The episode balances investigative curiosity, Southern storytelling charm, and sincere emotional questioning. It respects the perspectives of all—fans, critics, locals, and Dolly herself—while gently but firmly pressing on the tough questions of memory, identity, and reconciliation.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

“Dixie Disappearance” lays bare how even the most beloved American icons confront the nation’s tangled relationship with history. Through the story of a dinner show, its Civil War spectacle, a sudden name change, protests, and personal reckonings, the episode confronts what it means to confront the past, acknowledges blind spots, and celebrates Dolly Parton’s willingness to listen, evolve, and bring more people to the table. In doing so, the episode asks: What kind of history—and what kind of future—do we want to build, and who do we want to celebrate along the way?

Transcript

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[Jad Abumrad]

This is Dali Prince America. I'm Jad Abumrad. We are at the eighth of nine journeys into the Dali verse. This one. Well, if our sort of through line idea for the series is that Dolly is a kind of great unifier, this is kind of where things get a little hard. Maybe here.

[Shima Olia]

If we're talking about, you know, America from a Dolly's eye view, we get the full on quivering mass of irreconcilable contradictions.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's Professor Nadine Hubs again, University of Michigan Jolene scholar.

[Shima Olia]

Dolly is this singular figure in American culture who can pull off contradictions that nobody else could ever pull off. The question is, is this the place where finally Dolly met her match? Dolly's Waterloo.

[Jad Abumrad]

Maybe Waterloo's putting it a little too dramatically considering that the this that she's talking about involves racing pigs. But what Nadine is referring to is a place, a place of business. As you drive into Dollywood, which Shima and I did with another Dollyologist, Ali Tiki, it's starting to get mountainous. For a while it's all Smoky Mountains. And then you pull in the Pigeon Forge. Wow, this is a little bit like starting to remind me of Vegas.

[Shima Olia]

It's like the Vegas ship. I didn't expect that feel, really Vegas.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's Allie. When you roll in the Pigeon Forge, you drive along this mile of nightclubs and dinner theaters. It's very sparkly, very neon. You have a giant skyscraper and Godzilla hanging off.

[Shima Olia]

There's Wayne over there and Elvis and Charlie Chaplin.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Shima Olia]

And you'll notice we'll be on Dolly Parton Parkway.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly's name is emblazoned on business after business. And about halfway down the strip, you arrive at a big red building that looks a little bit like a barn. That is the most visited dinner theater in America and has become the center of a bit of a quarrel.

[Shima Olia]

So there's a stampede.

[Pete Owens]

Dolly Parton's Dixie Stampede.

[Jad Abumrad]

Call her. It's called the Dixie Stampede.

[Evelyn Miller]

Hey, y', all, come see my Dixie Stampede, the world's most visited dinner attraction.

[Jad Abumrad]

Don't miss it. Call or go online for reservations. Actually, it's not called that. Anymore. That's sort of the crux of the drama.

[Shima Olia]

Did you lock the car?

[Pete Owens]

No, I go first person.

[Jad Abumrad]

What?

[Shima Olia]

You locked the car, right?

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm not sure.

[Shima Olia]

That's fine.

[Jad Abumrad]

Shima and I visited on one of our trips to Dollywood. Now, you're not allowed to record inside, but people have producer Shimola Yai. Hi. Hey. There are literally hundreds of recordings on YouTube, so we're gonna use a few of those just to give you a sense of how it goes.

[Shima Olia]

Okay? Okay. So basically, ladies and gentlemen, if we.

[Jeremy Faison]

Can have your attention please.

[Shima Olia]

You walk into the arena, it's huge. I wouldn't say it's a football field. I would say it's like an Olympic sized sport pool. But like with arena seats all around.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's like going to the rodeo.

[Shima Olia]

Basically, it's like going to the rodeo. It's like a ton of dirt in the center of this massive oval.

[Jad Abumrad]

How many seats was it again?

[Shima Olia]

It was 1,000.

[Pete Owens]

Welcome to Dolly Parton's stampede.

[Shima Olia]

And the whole conceit of this situation, besides eating a tremendous amount of food, I mean, a full chicken and a pork loin and some soup that has a lot of cream in it and a biscuit.

[Jad Abumrad]

It was a lot of food besides the that.

[Jeremy Faison]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

[Shima Olia]

You quickly find out you are in a competition, a friendly competition between neighbors.

[Jad Abumrad]

All you fine folks sitting over here tonight are cheering for the North.

[Shima Olia]

The whole arena is split in half. On one side you've got the north and on the other side the South. The South. And the announcer who, who rides in on this horse on his steed.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you hear what they just called you?

[Shima Olia]

He encourages each side to jeer at the other.

[Jad Abumrad]

That sounds like fight words to me now, doesn't it to you?

[Shima Olia]

He asks you to kind of jeer at them. And then he goes to the south side and he tells the south side.

[Pete Owens]

I think you know who they are, those northerners.

[Jad Abumrad]

To you, Southerners ain't nothing but a.

[Jeremy Faison]

Bunch of foul smelling, gold digging, pig.

[Jad Abumrad]

Slobbing, bird dropping, pole cats couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

[Shima Olia]

Ain't that right, sound? And then all of a sudden, and.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here come the rider.

[Shima Olia]

12 riders on horseback storm into the arena, half of them wearing red and half of them wearing blue.

[Jad Abumrad]

Red is south, blue is North.

[Shima Olia]

They start zipping around the ring. They look gorgeous. They're waving. Everyone starts cheering. The riders are jumping up on top of their horse, standing, riding, then jumping off, flipping down into the sand and then jumping back onto the horse. It was. I was. It was really impressive.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Shima Olia]

And then the teams start to compete.

[Jad Abumrad]

Fire.

[Shima Olia]

They do a bunch of riding competitions.

[Jad Abumrad]

And the cowboy joust is underway.

[Shima Olia]

A cowboy joust. Kids from each side, they chase chickens. At one point, the pigs come out. Little piglets with capes race across the arena. Ours were quite mighty. And then you realize you're eating pork.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then. Let me just talk to the weirdness of it all. Like you are watching this. You are pounding lemonade.

[Patricia Davis]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

They are serving you lemonade in these giant gallon sized cups shaped like boots, and you're drinking gallons of lemonade. The sugar is hitting your bloodstream and you're flying, but in the back of your mind you're having these thoughts like, civil war is a friendly rivalry. Was the Civil War friendly?

[Shima Olia]

Wasn't it really about slavery?

[Patricia Davis]

Well, yes, but of course, bringing up slavery would be a downer, so it's not gonna bring in the money.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Patricia Davis, cultural studies professor at Northeastern University. She grew up in the south, writes a lot about Southern identity. She calls places like the Dixie Stampede the tourist imaginary.

[Patricia Davis]

You know, in terms of Civil War, the tourist imaginary would be, you know, the antebellum south, you know, the huge plantation houses, the, you know, the flowery belles, the, you know, the noble gentlemen. And, you know, everybody's happy. There is no slavery. There is no discussion of exactly what exploitation led to that grandeur. It's just the grandeur that's displayed up.

[Jad Abumrad]

Until a few years ago. The stampede hit all of those points. You had, at least at one location, a giant plantation backdrop, Southern belles dancing and big skirts. Riders for the south would come out in uniforms that were Confederate gray. Riders for the north would be in Union blue. And there were even signs over the bathrooms that said Northern Southerners only. In the show we saw, those notes were a little more muted, but troubling thoughts would enter the mind. But anytime they did. Boom, explosion.

[Helen Morales]

It's brilliant theater.

[Shima Olia]

This is classics professor Helen Morales. She wrote about the finale of the Dixie Stampede in her book Pilgrimage to Dollywood.

[Helen Morales]

There was a collective gasp at the beauty of the spectacle before the audience could reflect upon the result of their civil conflict.

[Jad Abumrad]

We are the United States of America. I am red, white and blue.

[Helen Morales]

The grand finale erupted in a crescendo of patriotism. Horses cantered in formation with their riders wearing lighted costumes, red, white and blue, and waving the American flag.

[Jad Abumrad]

Are you proud to be an American?

[Helen Morales]

Are you proud to be an American? Boomed the mc. A super sized image of a Resplendent red, white, and blue Dolly Parton that fills the entire screen at the end of the stadium responded, no north, no south, no east, no west, but one United States of America. Freedom and justice for all. Dolly is here. Dolly is America. The crowd erupts Screaming, clapping and stamping. It was such an overwhelming experience that, you know, as soon as I wanted, as soon as my critical self kicked in, and I thought, hang on, that's an appalling way to write history. There'd be a flamethrower or something to distract. To distract. It's hard to stay in one place. Ironic, serious, critical. It's difficult for me to be critical of Dolly Parton. I feel like I'm betraying myself.

[Shima Olia]

Helen, if you recall from the first episode, is a huge Dolly fan.

[Helen Morales]

I mean, her song Light of a Clear Blue Morning has really helped me out of many a blue period.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says while researching her book, this was the one place in the Dollyverse that didn't quite land right for her.

[Shima Olia]

And she realized there's a real big divide between the Dolly she grew up with. The woman, you know, sassing back to her bus in the movie 9 to.

[Helen Morales]

5, you know, wit and verve, staunch.

[Shima Olia]

Supporter of LGBTQ, and this other idea of Dolly that she encountered in the south and especially at the stampede.

[Helen Morales]

It's a more conservative version, I think.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, as Nadine Hubbub said at the beginning, Dolly can pull off contradictions that no one else can pull off. But then. August 12, 2017, you're looking at live.

[Shima Olia]

Pictures out of Charlottesville, Virginia. This is where violent clashes have broken out between white nationalists and counter protest. There.

[Jad Abumrad]

Black lives matter. Black lives matter. As you may remember, in Charlottesville, there had been a movement to take down two confused Confederate statutes, and this event has been declared an unlawful assembly. People who didn't want that to happen.

[Shima Olia]

Groups including the Ku Klux Klan and.

[Jad Abumrad]

Neo Nazis gathered to defend the statue. Things turned violent almost immediately.

[Shima Olia]

One person is dead and 19 injured after a speeding vehicle drove into a group of protesters marching peacefully through downtown Charlottesville.

[Jad Abumrad]

And suddenly, this conversation, which had been bubbling for a while, burst out onto the national stage stage. Questions about who gets to write the history that we take as fact. Who gets to be honored. Demonstrators took the debate over Confederate monuments to the streets of Richmond, Virginia, today.

[Pete Owens]

Baltimore's mayor ordered the city's four Confederate monuments removed.

[Jad Abumrad]

And in the midst of all of this rethinking and taking down of monuments.

[Aisha Harris]

Hello?

[Jad Abumrad]

Is this Aisha?

[Aisha Harris]

Captain? Aisha?

[Jad Abumrad]

A woman named Aisha Harris, a New York based writer who worked at Slate at the time she was on Slack. This is in the days after Charlottesville. And one of her colleagues messaged, saying, hey, have you heard about this thing that Dolly Parton does down in Pigeon Forge?

[Aisha Harris]

Just kind of escalated from there. It was like, holy crap. Like, why did I not know this? I love Dolly Parton. Like, what?

[Jad Abumrad]

She decides to fly from New York to Pigeon Forge and do what is essentially sort of a theater review of the Dixie Stampede. The tone was really funny, but also quite critical. Why are there signs over the bathroom saying northerners, Southerners only? Why is there zero mention of slavery? I was curious about the backlash. Like, did you. What, what was the result when you wrote the article?

[Aisha Harris]

It's probably actually the most backlash I've had for a piece since I wrote about Santa Claus. I don't know if you recall that. I didn't writing about Santa Claus.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, that was you? Oh, my God.

[Aisha Harris]

Yeah, that was me.

[Jad Abumrad]

What she's referring to there is an article that she wrote in December of 2013 that argued that maybe it's time we stop representing Santa Claus as an old white man. How about, let's make Santa a penguin? Because a penguin is a bird that has no race, but if you want to map race onto it, it's black and white. She says a lot of people didn't like that suggestion, but when it came to her article about the stampede, they really didn't like it.

[Aisha Harris]

You deserve to burn and die in hell. Or like, there was one. I can't remember exactly what it said, but it, it sort of implied something about my family. And I was like, okay, this is getting a little weird. One of the things that people kept saying was, and this is like via tweets and emails, you know, Dolly Parton has done more for other people than you could ever imagine you could do. She's donated money to this cause, this saw, blah, blah, blah. She's a philanthropist. And the thing about it is that I wrote the piece as a Gali fan.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you grow up with her music?

[Aisha Harris]

I didn't grow up with her music, but then, you know, I watched 9 to 5 for the first time I read about her and she's such as she's been. She's such a smart businesswoman. I think that's something to celebrate and to kind of look up to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Aisha says that she just wanted to point out that even amazing people have blind spots.

[Aisha Harris]

She was born not that long after Gone with the Wind came out, so I can understand why that sort of love, of this fake Southern identity. I can see how that could creep its way into her work. But it's 2017 now, and it baffles me that 30 years later, this show still exists.

[Pete Owens]

Well, I mean, it's something that we're talking about for a number of years.

[Shima Olia]

This is Pete Owens.

[Pete Owens]

I'm the vice president of marketing and public relations for Dollywood.

[Jad Abumrad]

Before we just start, just to sort of like, because we're on the radio, there's a lot of sound. It's good sound. I like the sound. It's a nice ambiance. Where are we?

[Pete Owens]

We're sitting in the lower lobby of Dollywood's Dremore Resort and Spa, adjacent to the Dollywood theme park.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gotcha.

[Shima Olia]

According to Pete, they had already been talking about making some changes even before Aisha's article came out.

[Pete Owens]

So we, look, we started to talk about it a couple of years ago.

[Jad Abumrad]

You had heard criticisms, I imagine.

[Pete Owens]

Not as much as you would think, honestly. I mean, I think most people got the fact that, you know, it's a good natured competition between one side of the arena and the other side of the arena.

[Jad Abumrad]

What kind of conversations were you having, like, leading up to the thing? What were some of those discussions about?

[Pete Owens]

Well, I mean, I think is. Does that really describe what it is we're doing now? I mean, you guys have seen the show. The discussions were, does that really describe us moving forward?

[Jeremy Faison]

Is.

[Pete Owens]

You know, is this really who we are? Everywhere is becoming more diverse, and we want to be as Dolly is, as inclusive as we possibly can.

[Shima Olia]

So Pete says after the article landed, the team huddled together with Dolly and.

[Jad Abumrad]

We'Ll hear from her in a second.

[Shima Olia]

And they decided to make some changes. First, they decided to remove all the plantation imagery and any overt references to the Civil War. So, for instance, the uniforms changed colors. There was no longer gray and blue. The Northerners were given red and the Southerners were given blue.

[Jad Abumrad]

They got rid of those signs on the bathroom. They sort of threw out a few of the traditional music numbers, wrote some.

[Shima Olia]

New tunes, and most importantly, we made.

[Pete Owens]

The decision to just remove. Just to remove Dixie from the name.

[Shima Olia]

Parton announced the show is dropping the word Dixie from its name. Dolly Parton's Dixie Stampede got rid of the Dixie and is now Dolly Parton's Stampede.

[Pete Owens]

Anything that had a logo on it or a reference on it to the name will change.

[Shima Olia]

The Dixie Stampede sign still stands here in Pigeon Forge, but take a look over this way. Something looks different. In one news report, you can see giant cranes removing the word Dixie off the front of the building. Crews have been out here removing the letters on the building and anything else that has the word Dixie on it. I take.

[Aisha Harris]

I'm happy that they did that.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's Aisha Harris again, this time in the studio.

[Aisha Harris]

You know, I like to imagine that maybe she had a change of heart and if that's the case, then I.

[Shima Olia]

Appreciate her even more.

[Jad Abumrad]

But as you can imagine, not everybody felt that way. We're bringing people flags, signs.

[Shima Olia]

We will have people out here.

[Jad Abumrad]

Coming up. We follow the story through a few more twists and turns and Dolly herself will weigh in. Dolly Parton's America will continue in a moment.

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[Shima Olia]

Would you describe yourself as an outdoorsman?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, I'd like to pretend that I am.

[Shima Olia]

Why are you making a podcast about being outside so much?

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, well, it's what doesn't exist in my life that I know is missing.

[Shima Olia]

Our common nature from WNYC is a musical journey with Yo Yo Ma and me, Ana Gonzalez, through this complicated country. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Dolly Parton's America. Jad Shima picking back up with the story. Dolly and her team announced they're changing the name of the stampede almost immediately.

[Jeremy Faison]

You can't rewrite history just by taking a name off of it.

[Shima Olia]

The decision to take the Dixie out of the attraction that had been called Dixie Stampede rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dixie is part of my heritage.

[Shima Olia]

Protesters voice their concerns outside what is now called Dolly Parton's Stampede.

[Jad Abumrad]

Basically, what happened is like if you look at a lot of the different counter protests that were happening in response to statues being removed across the country. Country, you see a lot of the same faces, the same groups. They're sort of on a circuit going from place to place. And when the name change was announced, some of those same protesters. Nah, bro, y' all have bowed down to PC Bullcrap. They diverted their travel plans, came to Pigeon Forge.

[Shima Olia]

We came too far to be knocked.

[Jad Abumrad]

Back down into this. Did their thing.

[Shima Olia]

Many of the people there say the term Dixie refers to the south and its fight in the Civil War.

[Jad Abumrad]

And all of a sudden, you are attempting to rewrite history. Empty stuff. No, we are not trying to rewrite history. Dolly's now de Dixied stampede. It is our duty to fight for our freedom. Was all wrapped up in that larger drama. Now, this was very much a national conversation with a lot of different groups on the outside weighing in. We were sort of curious to know, just, like, what do people in the area think about this?

[Shima Olia]

But before we could even have that thought or ask that question, we got a call. I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people, whose just powers are derived from the consent of the government.

[Jad Abumrad]

We got a call from a woman. I'm Evelyn Miller, who told us that she was related to Dolly.

[Shima Olia]

She's my fourth cousin.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can you. Can you kind of step through that? So what?

[Shima Olia]

Evelyn happens to be a regent at the Andrew Vogel chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution. I've been in the DAR probably 12 years, but I stepped out for a while because. So the dar, as she calls it, is a group whose members have to trace back their lineage to someone who either supported or fought in the American Revolutionary war back in 1775. 6, 7. After one of their monthly meetings, Evelyn met with Chad and me, and she immediately whipped out her phone. Okay, okay, now here we come down and open this genealogy app.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, wait, here we go.

[Shima Olia]

Okay. See, it says your fourth cousin.

[Jad Abumrad]

It says Dolly Parton is possibly your fourth cousin. Okay.

[Shima Olia]

Okay. Now, Katherine Powell, who married the Bohannon.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Catherine Powell, 1807, 1893.

[Shima Olia]

Which makes us. No, not removed at all. Catherine Powell is Dolly's fourth great grandmother.

[Jad Abumrad]

She tried to walk me through the sequence of connections, but it was felt like trigonometry.

[Shima Olia]

They had Betsy, Elizabeth, and.

[Jad Abumrad]

By the way, could you repeat that?

[Shima Olia]

Evelyn was not the only one there claiming a Dolly link. We met another guy named Art.

[Jad Abumrad]

Two of his daughters married to the Ogles in Gatlinburg, and they had lots.

[Shima Olia]

Of children who also claimed that he was Dolly's fourth cousin. My granddaughter is friends with Dolly's great.

[Jad Abumrad]

Niece, and they have sleepovers. It seems like everybody in this region has a connection to Dolly or says they do. Well, yes, so it would seem. In any case, we had chicken and brownies. We watched a presentation about the history of Scotland. And since these are people who obsess about history and lineage, after lunch, we sort of turn the conversation to the subject of the stampede.

[Shima Olia]

I don't think that she should have changed the name. As I was growing up, everyone said.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, don't change the name.

[Shima Olia]

None of you think she should have changed the name. My family was from outside, honey. And you were from the Union side. They weren't Confederates. East Tennessee was mostly Union.

[Jad Abumrad]

One of the interesting wrinkles about having this debate in East Tennessee is that this part of Tennessee was initially pro Union. During the Civil War, they were annexed by, by the Confederacy unwillingly. So there's a very independent, like, don't tell me whose team I'm on. I'm on my own team. Don't confuse me with the rest of the south or anyone else kind of vibe that you get when you talk to people here. And it's partly for that reason that most of the people at the table with us, the 10 or so people, we were talking to that flag.

[Evelyn Miller]

You're talking about Dixie stampede, the flag, the statues and everything else.

[Jad Abumrad]

They found the whole idea that you would erase a word to make sense, someone else, somewhere else feel better, kind of irritating.

[Evelyn Miller]

They were okay for 150 years and now all of a sudden they're no good. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Shima Olia]

I think it's people, are you willing to fight in a civil war for it? The right to protect my country?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Evelyn Miller]

My ancestors did it. I guess I have to do it too, if it came to that.

[Jad Abumrad]

But not everybody felt that way.

[Shima Olia]

What's coming to my mind in this discussion is when you know better, you're supposed to do better. Times were different back then. Times are changing. Dolly felt that she needed to change the name because.

[Evelyn Miller]

But, you know, all these things were okay for 150 years. And how far are you going to go?

[Helen Morales]

Right.

[Evelyn Miller]

That's pew in the church in Alexandria that was Washington's.

[Jeremy Faison]

A historic Virginia church will remove a memorial plaque honoring America's first president.

[Evelyn Miller]

They took his name off of it. Washington and Jefferson are on Mount Rushmore. They own slaves. Should we take them down?

[Jad Abumrad]

Are we going to change history? Are we going to tear all the statues down? If we tear the statues down, then we need to burn all the history books. But the critics, I think, would agree with you that the reason they wanted her to change it is that the actual story being told in it was itself changing history or not acknowledging history. We have to acknowledge history. Yeah, we have acknowledge where we've been. Here the conversation started to feel a bit familiar and sort of like one of those Mobius strips, those weird shapes that kind of you go in and out and in and out and around, and you're never quite sure which side of the shape you're on. One person would say, we shouldn't erase history.

[Shima Olia]

And then someone else would jump in and say, that's not. Not what's happening here. These statues and monuments and memorials were all put up long after the Civil War was over, mostly during the Jim Crow era. If anything, these things themselves are an attempt to rewrite history, which seems to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Have worked, by the way. If you look at surveys that have been done on this, when people were.

[Shima Olia]

Asked, what do they think the main cause of the Civil War is? 48% said mainly about states rights. Only 38% said no, mainly about slavery.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, it's just a fact the Civil War was fought to end slavery. Clearly, we have a deep problem in this country if a majority of Americans don't think that. And you could argue that these monuments and even things like the Dixie Stampede, which staged the Civil War as kind of like a pillow fight, there's a.

[Patricia Davis]

Danger to it in your teaching kids a particular sanitized version of history.

[Shima Olia]

That was scholar Patricia Davis again, by the way.

[Patricia Davis]

And if you grew up with the Dolly Parton version of. Would be very difficult to understand the divides that we have now.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so question number eight. In our first interview, we talked really briefly about the situation with the stampede. So now that we're sort of looking back on it, can you explain your thinking behind changing the name? And, like, what do you feel like you learned from that experience?

[Evelyn Miller]

Well, there's several reasons that we changed the name or a few reasons. Maybe I should say a couple of reasons. One being that out of ignorance, people do things you don't know. A lot of my things that I do wrong are just out of pure ignorance, really, because you grow up a certain way and you don't know the Dixie. We always thought way down in the land of Dixie, you know, it's like Dixieland or Dixieland music. Dixie, you know, I just thought of Dixie as a part of the, you know, part of America. And it was offensive, you know, Cause like I say, out of ignorance, you don't know that you're hurting people. Never thought about it being, you know, about slavery or any of that. But when it was brought to our attention and some woman wrote about it, and I thought, well, Lord have mercy, I would never want to hurt anybody for any reason. And being a businesswoman, we didn't really have that many people say anything about it. But I thought, lord, if I've offended one person as a businesswoman I don't want to do that. So we completely cleared all that out and started over with that. But I just wanted to fix it because I don't want to ever hurt or offend anyone. And so I did it as a good faith effort to show that it was never meant to cause anyone any pain.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sitting there, I thought back to our conversation with Aisha Harris, who had been wondering, honestly, I'm just curious as to, like, does she really, like, did she.

[Shima Olia]

Understand where I was coming from?

[Jad Abumrad]

So it sounds like you hear. You heard the criticism in you.

[Evelyn Miller]

I hear any criticism. I hear it because if it's hurt somebody, I'm certainly not about that. But then the name change, we are planning to be. We do have other Dixie, we have other stampedes. Now they're just calling Dolly Stampede or just the Stampede, but we're actually going to be all over, possibly all over the world with that. So it just made more sense because we have those beautiful horses just to have the word stampede. And it wasn't like location. So it really, in my mind, it was a business choice as well.

[Jad Abumrad]

She said that one of the main reasons for the change, and this I didn't see coming, was that they want to expand.

[Pete Owens]

We were looking at expansion in a couple of other areas. One on the west coast, one in Southwest.

[Jad Abumrad]

I talked briefly with Pete about this, too. He said one of the things that happened is they started to see research that showed that nationally, internationally, the awareness of Dixie, Dixie's brand awareness, if you will, is shrinking rapidly.

[Pete Owens]

So in order to be able to continue to expand our business, that's why the decision was made.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so going back to Dolly.

[Shima Olia]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sitting with her, talking about this, that moment was really interesting for me, like, because when she said, I don't want to hurt people, I thought, yes, I get it. Everything I have known of her in the last two years of interviewing her tells me that that is true. This is not somebody who ever wants to hurt somebody. All the molecules of her being seem to be aligned in that direction, and I think that's why people are called to her. But there's also that other aspect of Dolly, which is a laser focused, pragmatic business person. And both of those things were there so powerfully in that one moment. And I was like, wow, I'm not used to seeing these two things in the same person in this way. I don't think personally that you can have a game about the Civil War without talking about all of it, all the ugly parts, too, because we're still fighting it. On so many levels. But I trust that if people say they are hurt, she will listen and she will maybe change it again. I don't know.

[Shima Olia]

You know, speaking of which, you know what's funny is a couple days ago, I called up Pete again. I didn't record this call because it was just to fact check. And I just asked, have you guys discussed or just thought about just removing north and South? Just taking out the thorns of this thing, Keep the competition, the horses, the beautiful people, and the pigs. We love the pigs. Yeah, but just take out north and South. Protect themselves, protect the future. It would help everything. And he said, no. Yeah, but then I asked him, you know, are the. Just to check, are the costumes still red and blue? And he said, actually, they've changed. I said, they changed again. And he said, yeah, they're red and green. I was like, red and green? Why are they red and green? And he said, shima Christmas. North Pole versus South Pole.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's what they're doing now. Yep. Mother, Mother, everybody's starving.

[Jeremy Faison]

Mother, Mother, let's eat.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hold your horses.

[Shima Olia]

Got a million courses and I'm fixing a treat.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jeremiah, go and help your mother.

[Jeremy Faison]

Jane and Jonah, you too. Hezekiah, go and get your brother. Then fetch Amy and Sue. Mother, Mother, everybody's happy. Got a reason to smile.

[Shima Olia]

Cause you know that I'm about to serve a Christmas dinner country style.

[Jad Abumrad]

Christmas dinner, country style. Is it. Is it true that you are right now having a Christmas party, but you stepped out of your own Christmas party to sit in a car and take our call?

[Jeremy Faison]

Yeah, it's fine. Listen, I love. I love what y' all are doing. And to me, it would be amazing if we could. If we could get the bust of Dolly Parton up there.

[Jad Abumrad]

So just to radically shift the mood one more time, literally minutes. Okay, maybe. Maybe not minutes, but less than a day before our deadline, we became aware of a situation developing in my home state of Tennessee involving a Republican state representative.

[Jeremy Faison]

So my name is Jeremy Faison. I'm the Tennessee State representative for the 11th House District. That's Cot Green and Jefferson County.

[Jad Abumrad]

The reason we called. Representative Faison dragged him out of his own party that he was having at his house in the Smokies is because of a Dolly related statement he made a couple days ago that went a little viral. To set it up in Tennessee, each year, the governor must, by law, sign a proclamation honoring six notable figures. Three of them happen to be Confederate generals Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and a guy named Nathan Bedford Forrest.

[Jeremy Faison]

Nathan Bedford Forrest is a Former Confederate general, he was also heavily involved with the kkk.

[Jad Abumrad]

He is widely believed to be the first grand wizard of the kkk. Not only does he have his own Proclamation Day every year, but his bronze bust is one of eight busts placed in the hallowed alcoves of the Tennessee state legislature.

[Jeremy Faison]

He was never put in our Capitol until 1978.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Jeremy Faison]

We put him there after Jim crow. And in 1980, the Grand wizard of the KKK came to our capitol and had a press conference in front of the bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, my God.

[Jeremy Faison]

Over my years in Nashville, I've seen every year my fellow friends and legislators that are African American. It brings an enormous amount of grief to them.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's been a controversy for a while, but for years he says, he was the guy who would say, guys, how.

[Jeremy Faison]

About let's just preserve history? Some of our history is ugly. He met Jesus before he died and got right. And I was very. I defended him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Then he says, one day about two.

[Jeremy Faison]

Years ago, one of my friends from Memphis, as a legislator, he came up to me and said, have you ever actually read any of the writings and newspaper clippings from that time? And I'll be honest, I never had. And he brought them to my office, and as I read them, it tore me up.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did you read?

[Jeremy Faison]

Well, the first thing I read was the. The Fort Pillet Massacre.

[Jad Abumrad]

And what is that?

[Jeremy Faison]

Well, that's where a group of Union soldiers, who the majority were African American men, surrendered in peace. And they basically put them in a log cabin and set it on fire.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, my God.

[Jeremy Faison]

It was pretty. It was pretty disingenuous. It was. It was horrible. He helped in the formation of the kkk. I was grieved. I have a biracial son. And I was like, man, that's. That's pretty bad. And then I'm thinking, well, we have eight alcoves. That's the most prestigious spot in all of Tennessee to honor Tennesseean. And I have a biracial son and I have a daughter. And I started thinking to myself, wait a minute, if we're gonna preserve history, why aren't we preserving all of history? Why is there seven white guys and only one African American? That's not representative of who we are in Tennessee. We're a very loving and diverse state. We're a bigger state than that. Let's, at the minimum, rotate these busts out of here and bring more busts in. And at one time, I actually told a reporter, you know, the majority of the people who built this, the State capitol were slaves. Could not one of our Alcos benefit them? And then I started thinking, but I'd really love to see a woman. And one of my first thoughts was, somebody like Dolly Parton.

[Evelyn Miller]

I am a sea.

[Jad Abumrad]

And why did you think of her?

[Jeremy Faison]

In my opinion, Dolly Parton is a Tennessee treasure. But even more than that, Dolly Parton is a national treasure. I could start with, all five of my kids have benefited for her from her drive to end illiteracy and the Imagination Library. Oh, my goodness. It's an amazing thing. And at Dollywood, all of my children have gone to her Imagination Library and watched those books, those storybooks come to life.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Representative Faison made this suggestion via text to a reporter at the Tennessean, said, hey, I think we should replace the bust of the first grand wizard of the KKK with someone like Dolly Parton. The reporter then wrote the story. And that article, really just in the last day or so, has gotten picked up by tons of national media. And now it seems at least plausible that when the historical committee that decides which busts should and shouldn't be in the alcoves of the state legislature when they meet in January, it seems at least plausible that they will consider this.

[Jeremy Faison]

I'm hoping our historical commission at the Capitol will do the right thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Let me ask you, from your position advocating for taking Nathan Bedford Forest out of the legislature, is that an easy position for you to take or. Or a lonely one there?

[Jeremy Faison]

Obviously, I have some colleagues who are not at all in agreement with me. Some of my colleagues say, hey, I wish you wouldn't have said that. And not at all trying to be offensive to anybody who loves our Confederate veterans. The truth is, I am a son of a Confederate veteran. If you look in history, you'll find a man by the name of Paul Faison. Paul Faison was actually at Appomattox with Robert E. Lee. And I hold dear to the truth of everything that took place in our Civil War, and I want that preserved. I want to make sure we never repeat that again. But I think we can preserve history, tell the truth about history, but also preserve history in such a way that everybody gets included, and our state's the best managed state in America. I mean, we've got some great things to be excited about. And this just, to me, is one of the things that we don't have anything to be excited about with this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Let's.

[Jeremy Faison]

Let's put somebody in there like Dolly Parton that we could be excited about.

[Jad Abumrad]

Listen, I want to thank you for taking time out of your Christmas party to talk to us.

[Jeremy Faison]

Hey, God bless you. Merry Christmas.

[Jad Abumrad]

Likewise. Well, there you go. Dolly Barnes America was produced, written and edited by me and Shima Oliay, brought to you by awesome Audio, OSM Audio and WNYC Studios, with production help from W. Harry Fortuna. Thanks to our bluegrass trio, Steph Jenkins, Stephanie Coleman and Courtney Hartman, and also thanks to the folks at Sony Music and to Lynn Sacco, David Dotson, Lulu Miller, Suzi Lechtenberg, Soren Wheeler, Sam Shahi, Faith Held, and Joel Ebert. Just a reminder, we have partnered with Apple Music to bring you a companion playlist that's updated each week with with music you hear in this episode, plus some of our favorites. You can find all of [e-mail] Stay tuned. December 31st, we will deliver the final episode of Dolly Parton's America. Here's a preview. One last question, just to bring it.

[Evelyn Miller]

Back to yeah, it's going so good though.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, if you had to give the final concert, the concert, what would be the last song?

[Evelyn Miller]

Well, the song I close my show with always and probably always will.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you have a vision for the next 10 years? For the next 20 years? Like 100 years?

[Evelyn Miller]

Yes. When I'm gone, there's enough stuff to go on forever.

[Jad Abumrad]

We'll close out the series talking with Dolly about her faith and her future. That's on the final episode of Dolly Parton's America. In two weeks. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.

[Shima Olia]

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to learn more.