
Dolly Parton and politics have always had an interesting relationship. On the one hand, she wrote 9 to 5, the anthem for working women and the theme song for a movie inspired by a new labor union. On the other hand, she refuses to answer questions about President Trump, or any question on politics period. Her nephew calls this “Dollitics”: Dolly doesn’t take a position because she knows half her fans are on the right, half are on the left. In this moment in history, how should we think of this kind of fiercely apolitical stance? Is it desirable, or even possible?
Loading summary
Jad Abumrad
Mr. Monopoly here. Monopoly is back at McDonald's. Register in the McDonald's app so you're ready to get your bag. Two ways to peel for a chance to get your bag Physical peels with select items and digital peels with others. To get your bag, play Monopoly at McDonald's. Ba da ba ba ba. No purchase necessary. See rolls@playetmcd.com for full details and amoe.playadmcd.com to play without purchase ends November 23rd, but bonus play ends November 2nd. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro. Copyright McDonald's. Member Week is here at Lowe's. That means it's time for Mylo's Rewards members to save big with up to 40% off hundreds of items like appliances, tools, home essentials and more. Plus, get free standard shipping. Shop these exclusive member only savings now through October 15th. Not a rewards member. Join for free today. Free standard shipping not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusions and more terms apply. Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details on Lowes.com Terms subject to change. It's verbal judo. She's the best interviewee on the planet. Nobody does interviews like Dolly. I'm a very. I'm very outspoken politically, but I try not to. I try not to talk. Dolly ticks at all.
Dolly Parton
Anyway, so we're getting ready to go. We're just waiting here in the wings.
Jad Abumrad
Gotcha.
Dolly Parton
Then we're gonna go get in the car.
Jad Abumrad
I'm excited about that.
Dolly Parton
Ask me whatever you ask me and I'm gonna tell you what I want you to hear.
Jad Abumrad
I'm Chad Abumrad. This is Dolly Barnes, America. Episode 5 Dalitics Hat Tip to Brian Sievert, Dolly's nephew and bodyguard for coining the term. We begin this episode in London in room 327 at the Savoy Hotel.
Dolly Parton
Yeah, well, they actually changed it.
Jad Abumrad
Oh, they did. Just a few minutes before Dolly's supposed to walk the red carpet, we for the premiere of Nine to Five, the Musical. Nine to Five, if you don't know. Massive film from 1980 about three women who rise up against their sexist, egotistical boss. Spawned one of the great political anthems of our time. I'll go into all that later. For the moment, just know it's being revived as a musical in London. That's why we're here. How are you feeling about everything so far?
Dolly Parton
Oh, it's exciting. I'm really more excited than anything because I haven't seen it all. I mean, I've been working with and writing new stuff and putting things together. But I'm just excited to see the new cast and to hear the new songs, how they work.
Jad Abumrad
I can feel the energy of the event, and so it's hard for me to even focus. Outside the hotel, it's mayhem. Can we clear the back door just for the protocol. Not only are thousands of people waiting for Dolly to emerge, but all weekend long, all throughout London, there have been protests.
Dolly Parton
I guess they're protesting some kind of fashion something. And then the environment. I guess there's thousands of people out in the streets doing other things.
Jad Abumrad
Everywhere we go. Everywhere we go.
Dolly Parton
So it goes to show you there's a life within the life of world within other worlds. So they just tell us, okay, well, if we, if we get blocked off because of the protesters, we go in this other door, we go around this side of the building. So my security people, they've scout all that out. They know everything that's going on. They're very aware of everything. But it's kind of exciting, all that energy. Everybody here, for different reasons inside the room, accommodate everybody.
Jad Abumrad
It's a spooky mix of energy.
Dolly Parton
I hope the weather hooks up good for you. We were lucky.
Jad Abumrad
Dolly's team, led by Danny Nazelle, her manager, are zipping around like all electric. Dolly.
Dolly Parton
Now I have to sign some autographs. See, it never ends.
Jad Abumrad
Yeah, totally chill.
Dolly Parton
It's never out, it's never over. It's going on all the time.
Jad Abumrad
Gotcha. Danny brings in some posters with her face on it that she's supposed to sign before the show. I'm. Capture the sound of your pen.
Dolly Parton
Okay, well, I don't know if this is going to show on that. That don't even make a noise on this. Danny. That's not a good one. My hair colored that one out.
Jad Abumrad
Oh, well, would you like a black Sharpie for that?
Dolly Parton
It's too late now.
Jad Abumrad
Go time. We're walking down the hall. I guess we're on our way to the red carpet now.
Dolly Parton
We're gonna go down, get in the car. Cause we have to drive around to the red carpet to the front of the building.
Jad Abumrad
Dolly hums her way down the hall. Her. Her dress has all of these glass beads on it that swish back and forth musically as she walks and she hums to the rhythm of their swishing. She's flanked by, I don't know, 12 men, many of whom have very big guns.
Dolly Parton
Hello. Thank you.
Jad Abumrad
We all crowd into this tiny elevator where there's a middle aged British couple who happen to be standing there and are totally stunned. Special Weekend for me. It's my birthday.
Dolly Parton
Oh, happy birthday.
Jad Abumrad
Thank you.
Dolly Parton
You're 27 today, I think. 21. 21. Happy birthday.
Jad Abumrad
Thank you.
Dolly Parton
We're just having to go around the building.
Jad Abumrad
Okay. We hop into a black SUV and drive literally halfway around the block from one side of the hotel to the other where the red carpet is. No, you're going to get on my set, but I got to get out before you. We're on a time frame. Gotcha.
Dolly Parton
If you hear them ask questions, you're welcome.
Jad Abumrad
All right, I'll do it. I'll do it.
Dolly Parton
And if you decide to ask one right in the middle of that, I'll answer you, too.
Jad Abumrad
Again, icy calm. Oh, my God. Look at all these people. You ready?
Dolly Parton
Are you ready for me? Yep.
Jad Abumrad
Ready. 2000 people go bonkers. She steps out onto the red carpet.
Dolly Parton
I don't know who that's.
Jad Abumrad
Hello, Dolly. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. She starts to kill questions. Why is the show still so relevant?
Dolly Parton
Well, I think we've made a good point. When we did it 40 years ago, we did a lot of good.
Jad Abumrad
What kind of modern resonance do you.
Dolly Parton
Think this story has for a modern audience now? I mean, the women in work is a different world. So how modern do you think this story is? Well, I think it's as revelant now as it was before, and in a way, with the new Me Too movement, I think this is really a good time for it.
Jad Abumrad
People ask her, what advice does she have for working women? A lot of other questions related to workplace harassment, which was a big part of the original 9 to 5. But very quickly, the questions broaden out.
Dolly Parton
At the moment, in the uk, we've got Brexit looming. Have you got any, Dolly, advice to.
Jad Abumrad
Help the UK get through?
Dolly Parton
We can't hardly even take care of our own problems. Let's try to solve yours.
Jad Abumrad
Several reporters ask her about Brexit. We're going through a very funny time here in Britain at the moment.
Dolly Parton
One with Brexit, with people being very frustrated, very angry.
Jad Abumrad
She gets asked about climate change. What does she think about the protests that are sweeping London? She spends about four minutes swatting all those questions away, but then maybe about 10 steps and 20 questions in. Something shifts. I couldn't tell what was going on at the time, but all of a sudden, Dolly's security detail snapped into a tight circle around her. I was caught in the middle, actually. Started to feel like I couldn't breathe. And then the whole circle started moving really fast. I'd find out later, when I spoke with Brian, Dolly's head of security, that what was actually happening in that moment was that a guy with a knife had rushed the red carpet. Somebody had tackled him, disarmed him, then the rest of the security guys had made a circle around Dolly, which I was inadvertently in the middle of. And then they whisked her away from the red carpet and in the process, ejected me out onto the sidewalk. That was bananas. That was bananas. When Shima and I asked Brian, like, what did the guy want? He said, I don't know. He probably just saw an opportunity. He was like, this is just what happens. Dolly's trying to do her job, open a new show, and somebody rushes in, tries to attach themselves to that so they can be heard. Actually, we don't know what the guy wanted. But her team did what they always do, circumvent disaster. Dolly seems to be able to do that time and time again. Not just on red carpets, but countless times in her career. Every political election, she manages to glide above the fray. So much so that we started calling her the Great Unifier. It's one of the through line ideas of the series. But in these intensely divided times, can she do that much longer? Well, you know, people will always try to pull, you know, what her opinion is on certain politics or try to attach her to certain candidates.
Dolly Parton
Well, there's a lot of pressure. People seem to be expecting a lot from me, but I figure I'm just. I can't think about that, you know, I hope I don't let people down. They've put me up on this pedestal. I hope they don't knock me off of it.
Jad Abumrad
Truth is, the expectations, the pedestal, it's not new. She's been navigating that for a while. But what has raised Dalitics to the level of an art? It's like judo. She is. It's verbal judo, is that she has sidestepped controversy, stayed above the fray, while standing at the center of a giant political movement that she wrote the anthem for that is still being used by politicians to this day. Go ahead.
Karen Nussbaum
Hello.
Jad Abumrad
And that brings us to Karen.
Karen Nussbaum
So my name is Karen Nussbaum. I. My title. That's tough, man. I am a founder of 9 to 5, the National association of Working Women and Working America.
Jad Abumrad
And so, as I understand it, this story begins for you in the early 70s with your friendship with Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda, the most beautiful creature of the future. Is that right?
Karen Nussbaum
That's right. Jane Fonda and I were both in the Indochina peace campaign.
Jad Abumrad
What was that? Exactly.
Karen Nussbaum
In the early 70s.
Jane Fonda
Good evening.
Karen Nussbaum
Nixon had said, I've asked for this television time tonight. The war is over public.
Jad Abumrad
A plan for peace that can end the war in Vietnam.
Karen Nussbaum
But it wasn't over.
Jane Fonda
The American public is not being told the truth.
Jad Abumrad
Richard Nixon is telling us the war.
Jane Fonda
Is over and the war is escalating.
Karen Nussbaum
And Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden created an organization called the Indochina Peace Campaign. And it was to go back out into the public and say, we have a big responsibility here, and we as.
Jad Abumrad
Political people have to be sure that we don't ever stop.
Karen Nussbaum
We have to bring it to an end.
Jad Abumrad
This campaign famously included Jane Fonda touring North Vietnam in 1972 and broadcasting messages of support to the communist forces that the US Was then fighting. Hanoi Jane would henceforth rank right up.
Jane Fonda
There with World War II enemy propagandists.
Jad Abumrad
Tokyo Rose, and Axis Salad. It's what would get her the label Hanoi Jane and make her, in some circles, the most hated woman in America. She will always be a traitor.
Dolly Parton
The Hanoi James sucks.
Jane Fonda
She needs to go down in history.
Jad Abumrad
For what she is, the traitor. Okay, so as all of that was happening, Karen says she was in Boston organizing against the war.
Karen Nussbaum
I thought of myself as an activist, but I also had to, you know, pay the rent. And so I had to get a job. And I ended up getting a job that was the most typical job for women, which was to be a clerical worker.
Jane Fonda
Remember, keep in mind the 1970s is this moment when you have millions of women working for wages for the first time.
Jad Abumrad
This is Lane Windom, labor rights historian at Georgetown University. You can't overestimate just the level of change that was happening in the 70s.
Jane Fonda
She says women, until 1973, 74, couldn't even get credit in their own name. They had to get a man or their brother or husband or whatever to get credit.
Jad Abumrad
Wow.
Jane Fonda
That was the culture then, she says.
Jad Abumrad
You had a bunch of economic forces coming together, a bunch of civil rights legislation coming together, and suddenly, 12 million women like Karen enter the workforce en masse.
Jane Fonda
The single most common job for women to hold is a secretary or office clerical. And the women who held those positions were treated as the wife.
Jad Abumrad
You know, they were expected to get.
Jane Fonda
The coffee, expected to, you know, be a sex symbol in the office.
Karen Nussbaum
I wasn't thinking about it. It was really just, okay, this will bring in a paycheck every week.
Jad Abumrad
So Karen was at Harvard working as a typist, pretty much hating her job, but seeing it as a way to fund her activism, which had to do with the war and things happening out there. But then one day she's walking home from work and she passes by a restaurant.
Karen Nussbaum
And actually what happened was there was.
Jad Abumrad
A group of waitresses holding picket signs.
Karen Nussbaum
There was just these eight working class waitresses who, you know, got hit on the butt one time too many or disrespected by the boss or whatever it was, and they decide that they're going to go on strike.
Jad Abumrad
Karen says she started to march with him and it was a light bulb moment, like, oh, I could do activism about my work. So she gathered 10 clerical workers together.
Karen Nussbaum
Working in different workplaces. A hospital, an insurance company, a publishing house, a shoe factory.
Jad Abumrad
They formed a group, began to meet weekly. And after a few months, we decided.
Karen Nussbaum
To create a city wide organization that we decided to call 9 to 5.
Jad Abumrad
Over the next couple of years.
Jane Fonda
They created Office Workers bill of rights.
Karen Nussbaum
We want these minimum standards implemented now.
Jane Fonda
And launched at a big press conference. They did studies of, like, the publishing industry and the banking industry.
Jad Abumrad
The pay runs up to 40% less than men get for jobs at the same schedule.
Karen Nussbaum
There's also Phil Donahue.
Jad Abumrad
He had a popular TV talk show, daytime 9 to 5.
Karen Nussbaum
Used to do an annual bad boss contest.
Jane Fonda
Oh, they were so funny. They were hilarious. Okay, so like, they would hold contests.
Jad Abumrad
Donahue would invite the nine to five activists onto the show and they would hold these big contests. We held a contest to determine the worst thing your boss makes you do.
Jane Fonda
They'd do it in a big public way. So for instance, a winner was man.
Dolly Parton
Who owned his own business.
Jad Abumrad
He was late for a meeting and he had a rip in his pants right in the back of his pants. And he asked his secretary to sew the rip while he kept the pants on. He dropped his pants and she sewed the rip. Give me some other winners. Just briefly.
Jane Fonda
Then there was the boss who required his secretary to vacuum up his nail clippings from the floor. He won the personal hygiene award.
Jad Abumrad
Oh, that makes my stomach turn. Right.
Jane Fonda
And so they would have a bunch of women go deliver it to him front of the news cameras.
Jad Abumrad
Okay, so Karen was doing all this, holding all these contests, filing all these lawsuits, fighting for equal pay. She had this movie star friend.
Karen Nussbaum
Jane and I saw each other regularly as we worked on ending the war.
Jane Fonda
You know, every time we would see each other, she would tell me stories about what the women office workers were up against.
Karen Nussbaum
And it was exciting to her.
Jad Abumrad
Yeah, this is Jane Fonda.
Karen Nussbaum
Of course, one day Jane just came to me and said, what if we made a Movie.
Jad Abumrad
So Karen invites Jane to a meeting of 40 clerical workers that she'd organized. Jane brings some Hollywood people with her.
Karen Nussbaum
One of them asked the women, have you ever dreamed of getting even with your boss? And the place lit up. They all had dreamed of getting even with their boss.
Jad Abumrad
Yes.
Jane Fonda
I remember one, one, one woman said she imagined putting. Cutting up her boss and putting him in a coffee grinder and then making drip coffee out of him.
Jad Abumrad
Wow.
Jane Fonda
Another fantasized breaking his knees was a bat as he walked by. I mean, they were, oh, my God. You know, some of them were so violent that we couldn't possibly use them in the movie.
Jad Abumrad
But she says when she heard all those dark fantasies start spilling out, and.
Jane Fonda
I thought, oh, my God, there it is. There's the movie.
Jad Abumrad
20Th Century Fox presents a tribute to.
Karen Nussbaum
Anyone who has ever been overworked, underpaid.
Jad Abumrad
And pushed to the edge by an ungrateful boss. Quick refresher on the movie in case you haven't seen it or haven't seen it recently. 9 to 5 is the story of three female office workers. Hi. This is Violet. There's Violet.
Dolly Parton
Welcome to the front lines.
Jad Abumrad
Played by Lily Tomlin. There's Dor Lee.
Dolly Parton
Thank you, everybody. I was sleeping.
Jad Abumrad
Played by Dolly Parton. And there's Judy. Couldn't we just all get together and. And complain? Played by Jane Fonda. Let's face it, we are in a pink collar ghetto. So they've got this boss, Mr. Hart, who's played by Dabney Coleman, who demeans the female employees, openly harasses Dolly's character.
Dolly Parton
Mr. Hart told you before, I'm a married woman.
Jad Abumrad
I'm a married man.
Jane Fonda
That's what makes it so perfect.
Jad Abumrad
And the story of the movie is these three women getting revenge. Get him and hunt him down. And it's of course, hilarious and over the top. They inadvertently kidnap him. At one point, they string him up from the ceiling. Help.
Dolly Parton
Did you see the look on his face?
Jad Abumrad
One of the interesting things we learned is that the original script for the movie was way darker, a little closer in spirit to that 9 to 5 meeting. I mean, there was a cyanide scene written in an electrocution scene, but Jane Fonda nixed that version because she felt that the only way the movie would work as a political vehicle was if it were a farce.
Jane Fonda
You know, the way I think make these kind of movies is you make a movie so that even if people don't want to deal with the issues that we're raising, they'll like the movie. Anyway, because it's really funny.
Jad Abumrad
And as we know, a man in.
Dolly Parton
Hollywood, Jim Brown, goes behind the scenes.
Jad Abumrad
Of the movie 9 to 5 to find out what the office talk is. People did like the movie. It blew up. Jane remembers women shouting at the screen.
Jane Fonda
These were their stories. And I knew that the fact that we were putting their issues up on the screen this way would make a real difference.
Jad Abumrad
This was really the first national conversation about workplace harassment. It was like MeToo beta, and it.
Karen Nussbaum
Allowed us to explode.
Jad Abumrad
Karen says 9 to 5 became a full fledged union and added 20 local chapters.
Karen Nussbaum
Almost immediately, it just took off like a rocket.
Jane Fonda
Office workers all over the country felt empowered and uplifted and seen for the first time because of the movie.
Jad Abumrad
So now we come back to Dolly, who at this point had never been in a movie.
Karen Nussbaum
No.
Jad Abumrad
And what gave you the idea to cast her?
Jane Fonda
It went like this during the process of development.
Jad Abumrad
She says she was driving home one.
Jane Fonda
Day, I turned the radio on and Dolly Parton was singing Two Doors Down. And I suddenly had a vision of Dolly as a secretary. Just the visual, you know, she can't see her hands typing with those long fingernails. Everything about it made me laugh. And I thought, wow, she's never been in a movie, even if she cannot. Which I had no idea if she could or not. I thought people would want to see the movie because of her. You know, I didn't realize how fabulous the choice would end up being.
Jad Abumrad
I wonder, was there any thought in your mind that, like, you're trying to deliver a message, like a political message in a movie, but you are a polarizing figure at this point, and that maybe she was a way to bridge to an audience that you wouldn't normally be able to reach?
Jane Fonda
Well, I didn't. That would have implied that I was smarter than I am and more strategic. A real business person would have thought, oh, that would bring in the Southern demographic. That's a good business idea. No, I didn't think that way.
Jad Abumrad
Dolly, in her autobiography, she was very.
Dolly Parton
Upfront about the fact that she thought I'd help the film do well in the south.
Jad Abumrad
Says the exact opposite. But as for what Dolly was thinking at the time, like to thank all of you for coming this afternoon.
Dolly Parton
I'm sure you knew.
Jad Abumrad
And she explained this at a press event on the day of the film film's opening.
Dolly Parton
Well, I was attracted to the idea of doing 9 to 5 because I had. I'd been looking through scripts for a few months. And so it just seemed like it would be a good idea. And Working for the first time in a film with great people like Jane and Lily, I figured if it was a success, that we would all enjoy, you know, the benefits. And if it was a flop, they could take the blame for it.
Jad Abumrad
Dolly said in a very tongue in cheek sort of way, but she was very upfront about it, that she was making a political calculation. She knew that for her country music fans, appearing with Jane Fonda Hanoi Jane.
Dolly Parton
Was risky because she's so outspoken and so political. And, you know, a lot of stuff she talks about, I don't necessarily agree with. But then a lot of stuff she talks about, I do. But I just thought, well, now, this ought to be real interesting, because I'm also very opinionated in what I believe in. Although I respect anybody's beliefs and the fact that they're willing to stand up for whatever it is. But I'm also the kind of person that if I don't like where you got it, I can tell you where to put it.
Jad Abumrad
But then she says the real reason that she agreed to do the movie, to take that political risk was for the chance to write the music for the film.
Dolly Parton
Because the music is most important to me. And I wouldn't have agreed to do 9 to 5 if I hadn't seen it as an outlet for my music, which, you know, that part of my deal was to do the theme song.
Jane Fonda
One day, Dolly arrived on the set and she said, hey, y', all, come over here. I think I got a song for us.
Dolly Parton
On the set. When we did that with Jane and Lily, I wear these acrylic nails.
Jane Fonda
And she used her fingernails like a washboard, kind of, you know, keeping time, rubbing her fingernails together. Clickety, clickety, click.
Dolly Parton
Start. I thought it sounded like a typewriter, too. So I do. I tumble out of bed and stumble to the kitchen. Cup of ambition. I love that line. And I remember when I was writing that poor myself and I was going to say coffee, and I thought, a cup of ambition.
Jad Abumrad
Yeah.
Dolly Parton
And I said, high five.
Jane Fonda
And she sang the Working nine to five.
Dolly Parton
Working nine to five.
Jane Fonda
And I mean, both Lily and I looked at each other and we had goosebumps because we knew this was it and that it was going to be a huge hit and it would become a movement anthem.
Jad Abumrad
Oh, did you know that immediately?
Jane Fonda
Yeah.
Dolly Parton
The boss won't seem to let me. I swear, sometimes that man is out to get me.
Jad Abumrad
Jane says from the moment she heard the song, she just knew this was the entire working woman's movement captured, that this was going to outlive the movie because it was all there. Yeah.
Jane Fonda
Yeah. When people think about working women working, that's the go to song.
Jad Abumrad
And as for why it works so.
Karen Nussbaum
Well, Nussbaum says it's a perfect anthem.
Jad Abumrad
Here's how Karen Nussbaum broke it down to Lynn Neary of npr. She says, check out the sequence of ideas in the song.
Karen Nussbaum
It starts with pride. Pour yourself a cup of ambition. And then it goes to grievances. They always take the credit.
Dolly Parton
Just use your mind.
Karen Nussbaum
It then goes to class conflict. You're just a step on the boss man's ladder. And then it ends with collective power. You're in the same boat with a lot of your friends.
Dolly Parton
In the same boat with a lot of your friends.
Karen Nussbaum
So in the space of this wildly popular song with a great beat, Dolly Parton just puts it all together all by herself. And it's. And if you feel like you're, you know, the 9 to 5 is on a continuous loop in your brain, it's because you're hearing it all over the place.
Jad Abumrad
Then Elizabeth Warren, please join me in welcoming the next president of the United.
Karen Nussbaum
States of America, went to make her announcement that she was going to run for president.
Jad Abumrad
Elizabeth Warren.
Karen Nussbaum
She was playing nine to five.
Jane Fonda
Oh, I'm a huge Dolly Parton fan.
Jad Abumrad
I mean, what's not to love? Right before her, the next president of the United States, Hillary Clinton.
Karen Nussbaum
She was playing 9 to 5.
Jad Abumrad
But here's where you get to the dalitics of it all. You've got one of the great political protest songs of the last, I don't know, 50 years. You can debate me on that. I'll stand by it. It's a song that was born from a movie literally made to promote a union. And yet when Elizabeth Warren tried to use the song. Elizabeth Warren, who is a huge supporter of unions, Dolly's manager, Danny Nazelle, issued a statement saying, we did not approve this request, and we do not approve requests like this of a political nature. Coming up, we asked Dolly what's really behind that. That refusal. And her answer. I gotta say, it has stuck so deep in my head that literally, I've been thinking about it every day for the last 18 months.
Karen Nussbaum
Months.
Jad Abumrad
I'm Jad Abumra. Dolly Parton's America will continue in a moment. I'm Scott Hansen, host of NFL Red Zone. Lowe's knows Sundays are for football. That's why we're here to help you get your next DIY project done, even when the clock isn't on your side. Whether that's a new Filtreat filter or Bosch and Cobalt power tools. Lowe's has everything you need to feel like the end of the VP of diy. So get it done and earn your Sunday shop now in store and online. Lowe's official partner of the NFL. Amid ICE raids and with birthright citizenship under threat, historians recall the rise of the dual nation in Nazi Germany, where for a time the illusion of lawfulness prevailed.
Dolly Parton
However, if you were part of a disfavored group such as the Jews, you found yourself in a zone of lawlessness.
Karen Nussbaum
To track justice on this week's on the Media from wnyc.
Jad Abumrad
Find on the media wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jed Abumrad. This is Dolly Parton's America. I'll admit that when I learned about 9 to 5, the labor movement and how it inspired 9 to 5 the movie, and how that gave birth to 9 to 5 the song, which probably right now is being sung at 95 different protests, I'll admit I was a little puzzled by the thing you hear often from Dolly and her team, which is that we don't do politics. We do not approve requests of a political nature. Well, isn't the song a political song? I mean, that's where I was at. Wasn't sure what to make of this thing. Would seem like a contradiction to me. But then always make that joke. We call them Dolly partners. We got to talking about this one moment came up the first time in the lobby of the Savoy Hotel in the UK talking to this guy. I'm Sam Haskell. He's one of Dolly's production partners. We produce movies together. We've done things for NBC, Lifetime. We were sitting in the lobby and we started to talk about dalitics, how anytime a political subject comes up, she'll deflect. And I'll give you a perfect example. We found ourselves nominated for best movie of the year at the Emmys. TV is the vast wonderland. In 2017, the nominees for lead actress in a comedy series are. Well, it just so happened that Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda were also nominated for Grace and Frankie. So I had this idea that I let become everybody else's idea, but I had this idea that we should have the three of them reunite for the first time since 9 to 5 because they're all three Emmy nominees at the same award show. That was your idea? That was my idea. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here they are again. And still working at nine to five. Here are three of tonight's nominees. Lily Tomlin Dolly Parton and Jane Fonda. Well, if you'll remember, they came out with Dolly in the middle. Thank you.
Dolly Parton
Oh, that's nice.
Jad Abumrad
Well, we appreciate.
Dolly Parton
And personally, I have been waiting for a 9 to 5 reunion ever since we did the first one.
Jad Abumrad
Well, can you walk me through that moment from your perspective?
Dolly Parton
Yeah.
Jad Abumrad
So it's Trump's been in office for about 10 months, nine months at this point. The three of you walk out, you're gonna present an award for best supporting actor. First thing that happens is Jane Fonda says, I forget what it was.
Dolly Parton
Well, it was a line actually from the movie line Hypocritical.
Jane Fonda
You're a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot.
Jad Abumrad
Back in 1980, in that movie, we refused to be controlled by a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot.
Karen Nussbaum
Really?
Jad Abumrad
And in 2017, we still refused to be controlled by a sexist, egotist, lying, hypocritical bigot.
Dolly Parton
It was really the famous line from the show nine to five. And a lot of people didn't know that, but they were using it in a roundabout way to apply to Donald Trump.
Jad Abumrad
Your eyes got really wide when they said it.
Dolly Parton
Well, I didn't like it. Now, I had already told Jane Lilly, I said, now look, I'm not going to get into the politics of anything. So they wanted, they had, the writers had written up this whole stuff for us to say. I said, I'm not saying it. I don't do politics. I have too many fans on both sides of the fence. Of course, I have my opinion about everything, but I learned years ago to keep your mouth shut about things. I saw what happened to the Dixie Chicks and let me just stop the.
Jad Abumrad
Tape for a second. When Dolly talks about what happened to the Dixie Chicks, what she's referring to is something that happened in March of 2003. The Dixie Chicks were the highest selling female band of all time. They had a number one song. They were touring Europe. But then in London, Natalie Maine, the lead singer, is talking to the London crowd and she says, we're ashamed of the President of the United States from Texas. Kind of hard to hear, but she says, we're ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas. She was referring to George W. Bush, who is from Texas. So were the Dixie Chicks. London crowd loves it. But the London story was picked up by the Associated Press and printed in.
Dolly Parton
Newspapers all over the United states.
Jad Abumrad
This was 18 months after 9, 11, and just 10 days before the US would invade Iraq. And how they could say, I'm ashamed that the president's from Texas. Come on, man. Traitors. Dixie sluts anti America.
Jane Fonda
I think they could send Natalie over.
Jad Abumrad
To Iraq, strap her to a bomb.
Jane Fonda
And just drop her over Baghdad. I never want to hear another Dixie Chavison again.
Jad Abumrad
We're gonna boycott them for their music, and we're gonna boycott you for playing it.
Karen Nussbaum
If you.
Jad Abumrad
Country radio overnight turns its back on the Dixie Chicks. As a result of statements made by members of the Dixie Chicks at a concert, two radio networks banned the Dixie Chicks from their playlists. At a chain level, the Chicks number.
Karen Nussbaum
One hit Traveling Soldier quickly fell from the top of the charts.
Jad Abumrad
Their record sales crashed and their career kind of crashed, too. All because of one split second comment.
Jane Fonda
Aimed at President Bush right before the war.
Karen Nussbaum
War with Iraq.
Dolly Parton
I have as many fans that are Democrats as I do Republicans. And you don't want to hurt anybody. And it's not my place to be doing that anyway. I'm an entertainer. That's what I said to them. I'm an entertainer. I am not up here to bash somebody else.
Karen Nussbaum
Really.
Dolly Parton
So do y' all just do what you do? I'm not playing that game. Eva Tester goes lying, hypocritical bigot.
Karen Nussbaum
So.
Jad Abumrad
So here's what happens. That being said, tonight we're here to.
Karen Nussbaum
Recognize some men who conduct themselves with the utmost integrity.
Jad Abumrad
They're nominated for their extraordinary work in supporting roles. Right at this moment, Dolly steps in.
Dolly Parton
Well, I know best support hadn't been for good support. Well, yeah, shocking off here would be more like Flopsy and Droopy, but. And I think try to turn it around and make it kind of funny. And instead of doing that, I like, I say I can always depend on a boob joke, you know, if I have to. That's why I gotta lean back on them. Like I said, I don't know if I'm supporting them or they're supporting me. How about a shout out for Dabney Coleman out there? Actually, I just. I'm here to have a good time tonight and I'm just hoping. Well, congratulations on your nomination for your show. I'm just hoping. Yeah, thank you. I'm just hoping that I'm going to get one of those Grace and Frankie vibrators in my swag bag tonight.
Jad Abumrad
Within just a few seconds, Dolly had disarmed the whole room.
Dolly Parton
Anyway, here are the nominees for outstanding supporting actor in a limited series or movie. That whole night, they had just. Everything was just bashing, you know, Donald Trump and It wouldn't make any difference how I feel about him. I just thought, my God, you know, it's like somebody, you know, just. Why does it all have to be about politics?
Jad Abumrad
In the days after the Emmys, some people praised Dolly and how she sort of navigated the situation. She's done a very good job of keeping herself in the clean and the narrow, but she also came in for a fair amount of criticism from all angles. I want to talk briefly about the statements made by Hanoi Jane Fonda and Lily Lib tarded Tomlin at last night's Emmy Award ceremony. She knew what was going down. She knew what they were going to do. Parton stayed silent. Does Dolly Parton support those statements made. Because I am a lifelong fan of country music, and I think that country music fans should be outrageous, outraged. Some people on the left attacked her for not speaking out against President Trump. Others on the right attacked her for not speaking out for President Trump.
Dolly Parton
Well, you could have upheld him. You should have said something. I thought, no, I shouldn't have said nothing. Because if I'd have said anything about Trump, anything good or bad, or if I'd have said anything, just saying, well, you know, this or that, I'd have got booed out of that house. I'd have been probably up there on my own. But I didn't. I wasn't interested in that. I wasn't going to say anything good or bad, no matter what I thought or felt. I just knew that I wasn't playing that game. It's just. But I want to be careful about that because people, you know, it's like. Anyway, it's. It's just scary.
Jad Abumrad
Yeah.
Dolly Parton
No matter what you say, it's wrong.
Jad Abumrad
At this point, Shima jumped in with a question. Was when. When you saw. When. When you're in a room and everyone's attacking this man, like Trump because of your story of forgiveness, does it almost make you feel like you want to protect him?
Dolly Parton
Yes. What was your. He wanted to say, let's pray for the president. Why don't we pray for the president? If we're having all these problems, just, you know, why don't we just pray for Mr. President? You know, it's like, I wanted to say that, but I thought, no, keep your damn mouth shut. That won't work either. They don't, you know, so tit joke. When all else fails, be funny or try to be funny.
Jad Abumrad
Wow, that's really interesting. I have to be honest, that moment messed me up. I kept thinking about it, you know, I mean, I came in thinking that her refusal to talk about Trump was probably mostly a business calculation. She has a lot that she needs to protect, including a massive charitable foundation. So I think we can all get that. But it's also easy to see that silence cynically, like a refusal to speak truth just because it might hurt the bottom line. But when she said, let's pray for the President, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I thought, oh, no, no, no. That's not all that's happening here. I mean, this is not somebody who is denying the reality of America. If you just look at the 9 to 5 album itself, in addition to the song 9 to 5 Deep, you've got a song about the racist treatment of deportees, and there's another labor rights song on there. There's a song about the plight of mine workers dying in mines. Like, she's been singing about political social issues since the 60s. We talked about this in episode one. So this is not someone who's in denial. But the Trump comment, it made me realize, oh, I get it. She's saying her stake in the sand is that she will not cast anybody out. I thought back to those press conferences when Dolly started working with Jane Fonda. Her country music fans would boo when Jane's name came up, but in every press conference and interview, she would insist.
Dolly Parton
But there is this sweet, gentle side in Jane's that I think is. Is so. It's so sweet and lovable and side that the public never sees. And I know that it's hard to believe, but she's. She's a very caring person.
Jad Abumrad
I thought back to all our conversations about Porter Wagner.
Dolly Parton
I just, finally just thought, I'm going to break myself if I don't go.
Jad Abumrad
This is a guy that would be really easy to turn into a cardboard cut out of a misogynistic ass who held her back. And frankly, I was going that direction in my questioning. There's a power thing. Thing happening for sure.
Dolly Parton
Well, it's more complicated than that. Just think about it. He had had this show for years. He had. He didn't need me.
Jad Abumrad
She just refused to flatten the guy.
Dolly Parton
He wasn't expecting me to be all.
Jad Abumrad
And it seems suddenly clear to me that, yes, while there is a business logic here, this is also a spiritual stance. This is an ethos that she has chosen. And it is undeniably one of the reasons that she can have the fan base that she has, because everybody feels safe at a Dolly Parton concert afterwards.
Jane Fonda
You know, I realized that it had Put Dolly perhaps in a. In a difficult situation because Dolly is not a political activist. And, you know, many of her fans are Trump supporters. So I, I think it was awkward for her, and I felt bad about that.
Jad Abumrad
Did you talk about that with her afterwards?
Jane Fonda
I don't remember. I don't remember. But, you know, I, I heard that there, you know, there were. That there. There was some, you know, some of the fans objected to it.
Jad Abumrad
Yeah.
Jane Fonda
And, you know, I very much respect Dolly's. She. She does have a very diverse fan base. She loves her fans and the. And her fans love her. I mean, I've been to her concerts where her fans are, you know, tears rolling down their face. I mean, there's a connection between Dolly and her fans unlike any that I, I have ever seen in my life.
Jad Abumrad
Wow.
Jane Fonda
And she has to protect that. I'm in a very, very different place. Some people. There's almost a symbiotic relationship with fans. I'm not in that situation. It's very different for me, trying to.
Dolly Parton
Tuck my waist in, but I don't think I'm ever going to do it like you. Well, we're good. We're just about the same side.
Jad Abumrad
Gorgeous lighting. Whoever did it, thank you.
Dolly Parton
Hi.
Jad Abumrad
Telephone's off. If you're new to the party, back in London, a couple hours before the physical knife situation on the red carpet, we got to watch Dolly continually fend off other more veiled attempts to pin her down on politics. What do you think?
Dolly Parton
You know, without naming names, there are.
Jad Abumrad
People in politics who might talk about.
Dolly Parton
Women in less favorable terms than others.
Jad Abumrad
Grabbing them by certain parts of their anatomy. I mean, do you think that kind of language is useful or helpful in.
Dolly Parton
American politics these days?
Jad Abumrad
Anytime the President came up, which was.
Dolly Parton
Often what people do to each other. I'm sorry, I didn't get the first part of it. Well, I'm talking about President Trump, trying.
Jad Abumrad
To allude into him in the language he talks about grabbing women by certain parts of their anatomy.
Dolly Parton
Oh, I'm not even going to talk about any of that stuff, because I refuse to talk. I just think people should treat everybody with respect.
Jad Abumrad
Every time Trump came up, Dolly shut it down. And it did make me think at this moment when, like, even having cereal somehow becomes about President Trump. Is it even possible to do what she's trying to do? Is it even okay?
Dolly Parton
I think this code of silence is what's keeping women down.
Jad Abumrad
Just days after we return from that UK trip, Stella Barton, Dolly's sister, who's also a recording artist, appeared on A podcast called Our Stories and spoke with a woman named Adrina Austin.
Dolly Parton
And I find that is very disheartening to me.
Jad Abumrad
Basically pointed a finger at her sister.
Dolly Parton
My sister should speak out more. I honestly call her out. She should speak out more. And I'm ashamed of my sister for keeping her mouth shut. She can run it all day long when it's about something else. Well, speak up against injustice now.
Jad Abumrad
Who's your sister? Just for people who may not know, Dolly Parton.
Dolly Parton
Speak up. You know, it's like we've just divided. It's just tore my own family apart, this political stuff. We can't even have a. A nice dinner like we used to have. We'd laugh about things that was going on, something going on in the family or some jokes or whatever. Now everybody's arguing about politics. And I said, can we just stop and eat? Let's stop. Don't do that. We don't need to talk about that now.
Jad Abumrad
Shima jumped in with one more question. Sometimes when I don't speak up, people get hurt because I don't say what needed to be said.
Dolly Parton
Do you ever feel like by not.
Jad Abumrad
Opposing, like maybe it is hurting others or you could be taking other people's pain away? Do you ever worry about that or think about that?
Dolly Parton
No, because I know that when the time comes, I will speak out. I have a great sense of timing, and that's always worked in my favor. That's why I say I don't just join the marches. I don't just join the group. I know that my time will come, and hopefully when it does, I will say my peace.
Jad Abumrad
When she said that, I thought, when would be a good time to speak? What would need to change? What would she say? How would we hear it? Would we hear it? I thought about a Quaker meeting I'd gone to once with a friend where they tell you to wait in silence until the inspiration compels you to speak. And so you wait for something to happen. Then I thought about her music, which never seems to wait. It just comes in this unending stream and she channels that stuff. So in lieu of her saying her piece, we certainly have her singing it. Dolly Parton's America was produced, written and edited by me and Shima Olayai, brought to you by awesome Audio. That's OSM Audio and WNYC Studios. We had production help from W. Harry Fortuna. Original music by Leroy Anderson. The typewriter used with the permission of Woodbury Music Company. Thanks to the folks at Sony. Special thanks to Peter at HarperCollins Lynn Sacco. Huge thanks to Pat Resnick, Karen Nussbaum and her archives at Wayne State University. Sam Shahi, David Dodson, Pat Walters, Lulu Miller, Suzi Lechtenberg and Soren Wheeler. Thanks, as always to my dad. I also want to take this moment to thank Dolly Barton and Danny Nazelle and the entire crew for being so generous with their time. They did not have to spend the amount of time that they spent with us. They did not have to answer all of our sometimes very annoying questions. But they did, and we are grateful. We've partnered with Apple Music to bring you a companion playlist that will be updated each week with music you'll hear in the episode, plus some of our favorites. You can find that on our website@dollypartonsamerica.org Next week on Dolly Parton's America, you got absent.
Dolly Parton
Look, I'm a writer, Jolene's a whore.
Jad Abumrad
We take a Dolly classic and turn it on its head.
Dolly Parton
I got my little melodica.
Jad Abumrad
Oh, I love that verse. It's so good. Oh, that's coming up next week on Dolly Parton's America. NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to learn more.
Podcast: Dolly Parton's America
Episode: 5 – "Dollitics"
Release Date: November 12, 2019
Host: Jad Abumrad
Producers: WNYC Studios & OSM Audio
This episode, cleverly titled "Dollitics," explores Dolly Parton's unique and artful stance on politics in the public eye. In a time of increasing division, the podcast investigates how Dolly has become one of the few universally beloved American figures, adeptly sidestepping political controversy while standing at the intersection of major social movements—most notably with her involvement in "9 to 5." Through interviews, historical context, and memorable anecdotes, host Jad Abumrad and producer Shima Oliaee unpack the complex relationship between Dolly, politics, and her vast fanbase, attempting to answer the question: how does Dolly remain the "Great Unifier" in polarized times?
“Ask me whatever you ask me and I’m gonna tell you what I want you to hear.”
(Dolly Parton, 01:29)
“You make a movie so that even if people don’t want to deal with the issues… they’ll like the movie anyway because it’s really funny.”
(Jane Fonda, 18:01)
“Because the music is most important to me. And I wouldn’t have agreed to do 9 to 5 if I hadn’t seen it as an outlet for my music...”
(Dolly Parton, 21:51)
“Both Lily and I looked at each other and we had goosebumps because we knew this was it and that it was going to be a huge hit and it would become a movement anthem.”
(Jane Fonda, 22:52)
“I have too many fans on both sides of the fence. Of course I have my opinion about everything, but I learned years ago to keep your mouth shut about things. I saw what happened to the Dixie Chicks...”
(Dolly Parton, 30:13)
“No matter what you say, it’s wrong.”
(Dolly Parton, 35:50)
“I wanted to say, let’s pray for the president… but I thought, no, keep your damn mouth shut. That won’t work either.”
(Dolly Parton, 36:10)
“No, because I know that when the time comes, I will speak out. I have a great sense of timing, and that’s always worked in my favor… I know that my time will come, and hopefully when it does, I will say my peace.”
(Dolly Parton, 43:36)
The episode masterfully mixes humor, candor, and reflection—mirroring Dolly’s own approach to life and controversy. Jad’s narration is warm and curious, always seeking to understand and illuminate, while Dolly's voice remains unmistakably frank, witty, and grounded throughout, often punctuated by self-deprecating laughter and quick-witted asides.
“Dollitics” deftly illustrates Dolly Parton’s distinctive and deeply personal strategy for surviving—and thriving—at America’s political crossroads. Rather than disengagement, her silence is a chosen form of unity, rooted in compassion, wisdom, and her own spiritual beliefs. Through the music of "9 to 5," her career choices, and her interactions with both friends and critics, Dolly Parton emerges as a nuanced figure who sees—and sings for—everyone, insisting on the fundamental dignity and belonging of all.