Dollitics

Summary

Dolly Parton's America – Episode 5: "Dollitics" Summary

Podcast: Dolly Parton's America
Episode: 5 – "Dollitics"
Release Date: November 12, 2019
Host: Jad Abumrad
Producers: WNYC Studios & OSM Audio

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Overview

This episode, cleverly titled "Dollitics," explores Dolly Parton's unique and artful stance on politics in the public eye. In a time of increasing division, the podcast investigates how Dolly has become one of the few universally beloved American figures, adeptly sidestepping political controversy while standing at the intersection of major social movements—most notably with her involvement in "9 to 5." Through interviews, historical context, and memorable anecdotes, host Jad Abumrad and producer Shima Oliaee unpack the complex relationship between Dolly, politics, and her vast fanbase, attempting to answer the question: how does Dolly remain the "Great Unifier" in polarized times?

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Dolly Parton's Public Persona and Political Neutrality

• Opening scenes find Dolly in London, preparing for the "9 to 5: The Musical" red carpet amid city protests, highlighting how she constantly navigates chaotic energies while remaining poised (01:23–04:38).
• Dolly humorously describes her approach to interviews:

  “Ask me whatever you ask me and I’m gonna tell you what I want you to hear.”
  (Dolly Parton, 01:29)

• The theme of Dolly as a "Great Unifier" is introduced; she manages to "glide above the fray" during times of intense division (08:45).

2. The Origins of "9 to 5" and Its Political Roots

• The episode dives into the 1970s women's workplace movement, with activist Karen Nussbaum recounting the founding of the 9 to 5 group and her activism with Jane Fonda (09:38–13:44).
• Historian Lane Windham provides context: “Until 1973, 74, women couldn’t even get credit in their own name… That was the culture then.” (12:00)
• The creative roots of "9 to 5" are revealed: Jane Fonda, inspired by Nussbaum’s activism, proposes a film based on clerical workers’ stories (15:36–16:29).

3. Making "9 to 5" a Farce—and a Movement Anthem

• Jane Fonda explains why the movie, despite dark origins, needed to be a farce to function as a political vehicle:

  “You make a movie so that even if people don’t want to deal with the issues… they’ll like the movie anyway because it’s really funny.”
  (Jane Fonda, 18:01)

• Dolly is cast, partly as a business strategy (to bring in her Southern audience), but also from a spontaneous "vision" Jane had (19:11–19:51).
• Dolly seized "9 to 5" as an opportunity primarily for songwriting:

  “Because the music is most important to me. And I wouldn’t have agreed to do 9 to 5 if I hadn’t seen it as an outlet for my music...”
  (Dolly Parton, 21:51)

4. Creating the Anthem — “9 to 5”

• Dolly’s unique fingernails inspired the typewriter rhythm in the classic track, which she debuted for her co-stars on set (22:10–22:45).
• Jane Fonda and others immediately recognized the song’s power:

  “Both Lily and I looked at each other and we had goosebumps because we knew this was it and that it was going to be a huge hit and it would become a movement anthem.”
  (Jane Fonda, 22:52)

• Karen Nussbaum dissects the song’s political narrative, tracking its movement from pride to grievances, class conflict, and collective power—all in under four minutes (23:53–24:18).

5. The Song’s Enduring Political Power—and Dolly’s Boundaries

• “9 to 5” has become synonymous with women's labor rights, often used at political rallies—sometimes against Dolly’s wishes (Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton campaign uses) (24:38–25:01).
• Dolly’s manager issued statements against political song approval, emphasizing, “We do not approve requests like this of a political nature.” (25:01)
• Jad questions the paradox: how can Dolly claim not to be political when her legacy is so tied to political messaging? (26:54)

6. Dolly’s Philosophy on Political Silence

• Sam Haskell and Dolly recount the tense 2017 Emmys “9 to 5” reunion, where Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin repurpose a classic line to jab at President Trump; Dolly refuses to participate in the political moment (28:53–30:10).
• Dolly explains her stance:

  “I have too many fans on both sides of the fence. Of course I have my opinion about everything, but I learned years ago to keep your mouth shut about things. I saw what happened to the Dixie Chicks...”
  (Dolly Parton, 30:13)

• Flashback to how the Dixie Chicks’ career was upended by a political comment, reinforcing Dolly’s logic (31:37–32:17).
• Dolly’s Emmys pivot: she uses a classic “boob joke” to defuse partisanship, steering the exchange to levity rather than politics (33:16–34:04).

7. Criticism and Compassion: Dolly's Approach

• Dolly is criticized by both sides after the Emmys: some for not taking a stand against Trump, others for implicitly condoning criticism by staying (34:31–35:12).
• Dolly’s approach:

  “No matter what you say, it’s wrong.”
  (Dolly Parton, 35:50)

• She admits her instinct, even in politically-charged rooms, is to respond with compassion, not division:

  “I wanted to say, let’s pray for the president… but I thought, no, keep your damn mouth shut. That won’t work either.”
  (Dolly Parton, 36:10)

8. The Ethos Behind the Silence

• Jad realizes Dolly’s refusal to take sides is both a business calculation and a spiritual stance—she refuses to “cast anybody out” (38:30–39:36).
• Jane Fonda reflects on Dolly’s position and the unique, reciprocal relationship Dolly has with her diverse audience (39:57–40:39).

9. Family Tension and the Limits of Neutrality

• Dolly’s sister, Stella Parton, voices disappointment at Dolly’s refusal to “speak out more” against injustice (42:26–42:51).
• Dolly defends her timing:

  “No, because I know that when the time comes, I will speak out. I have a great sense of timing, and that’s always worked in my favor… I know that my time will come, and hopefully when it does, I will say my peace.”
  (Dolly Parton, 43:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On managing expectations:
  “They’ve put me up on this pedestal. I hope they don’t knock me off of it.”
  (Dolly Parton, 08:56)
• On music and meaning:
  “Pour yourself a cup of ambition.”
  (Dolly Parton, 22:23)
• On navigating the Emmys:
  “When all else fails, be funny or try to be funny.”
  (Dolly Parton, 36:40)
• On her ethos:
  “She will not cast anybody out.”
  (Jad Abumrad, 38:30)
• On knowing when to speak:
  “I have a great sense of timing… hopefully when it does, I will say my peace.”
  (Dolly Parton, 43:36)

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Key Timestamps

• Dolly's London energy & red carpet chaos: 01:23–06:19
• Origins of 9 to 5 activism: 09:38–14:12
• Making the movie “9 to 5”: 15:36–18:14
• Creating the anthem: 21:51–22:45
• Press conference difficulties and Emmys incident: 28:53–30:10
• Dixie Chicks controversy context: 31:37–32:17
• Dolly’s explanation of her public silence: 34:31–35:50, 36:10
• Jad’s reflection on Dolly’s ethos: 38:30–39:36
• Stella Parton’s critique & Dolly’s promise: 42:26–43:36

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode masterfully mixes humor, candor, and reflection—mirroring Dolly’s own approach to life and controversy. Jad’s narration is warm and curious, always seeking to understand and illuminate, while Dolly's voice remains unmistakably frank, witty, and grounded throughout, often punctuated by self-deprecating laughter and quick-witted asides.

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Conclusion

“Dollitics” deftly illustrates Dolly Parton’s distinctive and deeply personal strategy for surviving—and thriving—at America’s political crossroads. Rather than disengagement, her silence is a chosen form of unity, rooted in compassion, wisdom, and her own spiritual beliefs. Through the music of "9 to 5," her career choices, and her interactions with both friends and critics, Dolly Parton emerges as a nuanced figure who sees—and sings for—everyone, insisting on the fundamental dignity and belonging of all.

Transcript

[Jad Abumrad]

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[Dolly Parton]

Anyway, so we're getting ready to go. We're just waiting here in the wings.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gotcha.

[Dolly Parton]

Then we're gonna go get in the car.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm excited about that.

[Dolly Parton]

Ask me whatever you ask me and I'm gonna tell you what I want you to hear.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Chad Abumrad. This is Dolly Barnes, America. Episode 5 Dalitics Hat Tip to Brian Sievert, Dolly's nephew and bodyguard for coining the term. We begin this episode in London in room 327 at the Savoy Hotel.

[Dolly Parton]

Yeah, well, they actually changed it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, they did. Just a few minutes before Dolly's supposed to walk the red carpet, we for the premiere of Nine to Five, the Musical. Nine to Five, if you don't know. Massive film from 1980 about three women who rise up against their sexist, egotistical boss. Spawned one of the great political anthems of our time. I'll go into all that later. For the moment, just know it's being revived as a musical in London. That's why we're here. How are you feeling about everything so far?

[Dolly Parton]

Oh, it's exciting. I'm really more excited than anything because I haven't seen it all. I mean, I've been working with and writing new stuff and putting things together. But I'm just excited to see the new cast and to hear the new songs, how they work.

[Jad Abumrad]

I can feel the energy of the event, and so it's hard for me to even focus. Outside the hotel, it's mayhem. Can we clear the back door just for the protocol. Not only are thousands of people waiting for Dolly to emerge, but all weekend long, all throughout London, there have been protests.

[Dolly Parton]

I guess they're protesting some kind of fashion something. And then the environment. I guess there's thousands of people out in the streets doing other things.

[Jad Abumrad]

Everywhere we go. Everywhere we go.

[Dolly Parton]

So it goes to show you there's a life within the life of world within other worlds. So they just tell us, okay, well, if we, if we get blocked off because of the protesters, we go in this other door, we go around this side of the building. So my security people, they've scout all that out. They know everything that's going on. They're very aware of everything. But it's kind of exciting, all that energy. Everybody here, for different reasons inside the room, accommodate everybody.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's a spooky mix of energy.

[Dolly Parton]

I hope the weather hooks up good for you. We were lucky.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly's team, led by Danny Nazelle, her manager, are zipping around like all electric. Dolly.

[Dolly Parton]

Now I have to sign some autographs. See, it never ends.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, totally chill.

[Dolly Parton]

It's never out, it's never over. It's going on all the time.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gotcha. Danny brings in some posters with her face on it that she's supposed to sign before the show. I'm. Capture the sound of your pen.

[Dolly Parton]

Okay, well, I don't know if this is going to show on that. That don't even make a noise on this. Danny. That's not a good one. My hair colored that one out.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, well, would you like a black Sharpie for that?

[Dolly Parton]

It's too late now.

[Jad Abumrad]

Go time. We're walking down the hall. I guess we're on our way to the red carpet now.

[Dolly Parton]

We're gonna go down, get in the car. Cause we have to drive around to the red carpet to the front of the building.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly hums her way down the hall. Her. Her dress has all of these glass beads on it that swish back and forth musically as she walks and she hums to the rhythm of their swishing. She's flanked by, I don't know, 12 men, many of whom have very big guns.

[Dolly Parton]

Hello. Thank you.

[Jad Abumrad]

We all crowd into this tiny elevator where there's a middle aged British couple who happen to be standing there and are totally stunned. Special Weekend for me. It's my birthday.

[Dolly Parton]

Oh, happy birthday.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thank you.

[Dolly Parton]

You're 27 today, I think. 21. 21. Happy birthday.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thank you.

[Dolly Parton]

We're just having to go around the building.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. We hop into a black SUV and drive literally halfway around the block from one side of the hotel to the other where the red carpet is. No, you're going to get on my set, but I got to get out before you. We're on a time frame. Gotcha.

[Dolly Parton]

If you hear them ask questions, you're welcome.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, I'll do it. I'll do it.

[Dolly Parton]

And if you decide to ask one right in the middle of that, I'll answer you, too.

[Jad Abumrad]

Again, icy calm. Oh, my God. Look at all these people. You ready?

[Dolly Parton]

Are you ready for me? Yep.

[Jad Abumrad]

Ready. 2000 people go bonkers. She steps out onto the red carpet.

[Dolly Parton]

I don't know who that's.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hello, Dolly. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. She starts to kill questions. Why is the show still so relevant?

[Dolly Parton]

Well, I think we've made a good point. When we did it 40 years ago, we did a lot of good.

[Jad Abumrad]

What kind of modern resonance do you.

[Dolly Parton]

Think this story has for a modern audience now? I mean, the women in work is a different world. So how modern do you think this story is? Well, I think it's as revelant now as it was before, and in a way, with the new Me Too movement, I think this is really a good time for it.

[Jad Abumrad]

People ask her, what advice does she have for working women? A lot of other questions related to workplace harassment, which was a big part of the original 9 to 5. But very quickly, the questions broaden out.

[Dolly Parton]

At the moment, in the uk, we've got Brexit looming. Have you got any, Dolly, advice to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Help the UK get through?

[Dolly Parton]

We can't hardly even take care of our own problems. Let's try to solve yours.

[Jad Abumrad]

Several reporters ask her about Brexit. We're going through a very funny time here in Britain at the moment.

[Dolly Parton]

One with Brexit, with people being very frustrated, very angry.

[Jad Abumrad]

She gets asked about climate change. What does she think about the protests that are sweeping London? She spends about four minutes swatting all those questions away, but then maybe about 10 steps and 20 questions in. Something shifts. I couldn't tell what was going on at the time, but all of a sudden, Dolly's security detail snapped into a tight circle around her. I was caught in the middle, actually. Started to feel like I couldn't breathe. And then the whole circle started moving really fast. I'd find out later, when I spoke with Brian, Dolly's head of security, that what was actually happening in that moment was that a guy with a knife had rushed the red carpet. Somebody had tackled him, disarmed him, then the rest of the security guys had made a circle around Dolly, which I was inadvertently in the middle of. And then they whisked her away from the red carpet and in the process, ejected me out onto the sidewalk. That was bananas. That was bananas. When Shima and I asked Brian, like, what did the guy want? He said, I don't know. He probably just saw an opportunity. He was like, this is just what happens. Dolly's trying to do her job, open a new show, and somebody rushes in, tries to attach themselves to that so they can be heard. Actually, we don't know what the guy wanted. But her team did what they always do, circumvent disaster. Dolly seems to be able to do that time and time again. Not just on red carpets, but countless times in her career. Every political election, she manages to glide above the fray. So much so that we started calling her the Great Unifier. It's one of the through line ideas of the series. But in these intensely divided times, can she do that much longer? Well, you know, people will always try to pull, you know, what her opinion is on certain politics or try to attach her to certain candidates.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, there's a lot of pressure. People seem to be expecting a lot from me, but I figure I'm just. I can't think about that, you know, I hope I don't let people down. They've put me up on this pedestal. I hope they don't knock me off of it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Truth is, the expectations, the pedestal, it's not new. She's been navigating that for a while. But what has raised Dalitics to the level of an art? It's like judo. She is. It's verbal judo, is that she has sidestepped controversy, stayed above the fray, while standing at the center of a giant political movement that she wrote the anthem for that is still being used by politicians to this day. Go ahead.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Hello.

[Jad Abumrad]

And that brings us to Karen.

[Karen Nussbaum]

So my name is Karen Nussbaum. I. My title. That's tough, man. I am a founder of 9 to 5, the National association of Working Women and Working America.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so, as I understand it, this story begins for you in the early 70s with your friendship with Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda, the most beautiful creature of the future. Is that right?

[Karen Nussbaum]

That's right. Jane Fonda and I were both in the Indochina peace campaign.

[Jad Abumrad]

What was that? Exactly.

[Karen Nussbaum]

In the early 70s.

[Jane Fonda]

Good evening.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Nixon had said, I've asked for this television time tonight. The war is over public.

[Jad Abumrad]

A plan for peace that can end the war in Vietnam.

[Karen Nussbaum]

But it wasn't over.

[Jane Fonda]

The American public is not being told the truth.

[Jad Abumrad]

Richard Nixon is telling us the war.

[Jane Fonda]

Is over and the war is escalating.

[Karen Nussbaum]

And Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden created an organization called the Indochina Peace Campaign. And it was to go back out into the public and say, we have a big responsibility here, and we as.

[Jad Abumrad]

Political people have to be sure that we don't ever stop.

[Karen Nussbaum]

We have to bring it to an end.

[Jad Abumrad]

This campaign famously included Jane Fonda touring North Vietnam in 1972 and broadcasting messages of support to the communist forces that the US Was then fighting. Hanoi Jane would henceforth rank right up.

[Jane Fonda]

There with World War II enemy propagandists.

[Jad Abumrad]

Tokyo Rose, and Axis Salad. It's what would get her the label Hanoi Jane and make her, in some circles, the most hated woman in America. She will always be a traitor.

[Dolly Parton]

The Hanoi James sucks.

[Jane Fonda]

She needs to go down in history.

[Jad Abumrad]

For what she is, the traitor. Okay, so as all of that was happening, Karen says she was in Boston organizing against the war.

[Karen Nussbaum]

I thought of myself as an activist, but I also had to, you know, pay the rent. And so I had to get a job. And I ended up getting a job that was the most typical job for women, which was to be a clerical worker.

[Jane Fonda]

Remember, keep in mind the 1970s is this moment when you have millions of women working for wages for the first time.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Lane Windom, labor rights historian at Georgetown University. You can't overestimate just the level of change that was happening in the 70s.

[Jane Fonda]

She says women, until 1973, 74, couldn't even get credit in their own name. They had to get a man or their brother or husband or whatever to get credit.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Jane Fonda]

That was the culture then, she says.

[Jad Abumrad]

You had a bunch of economic forces coming together, a bunch of civil rights legislation coming together, and suddenly, 12 million women like Karen enter the workforce en masse.

[Jane Fonda]

The single most common job for women to hold is a secretary or office clerical. And the women who held those positions were treated as the wife.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, they were expected to get.

[Jane Fonda]

The coffee, expected to, you know, be a sex symbol in the office.

[Karen Nussbaum]

I wasn't thinking about it. It was really just, okay, this will bring in a paycheck every week.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Karen was at Harvard working as a typist, pretty much hating her job, but seeing it as a way to fund her activism, which had to do with the war and things happening out there. But then one day she's walking home from work and she passes by a restaurant.

[Karen Nussbaum]

And actually what happened was there was.

[Jad Abumrad]

A group of waitresses holding picket signs.

[Karen Nussbaum]

There was just these eight working class waitresses who, you know, got hit on the butt one time too many or disrespected by the boss or whatever it was, and they decide that they're going to go on strike.

[Jad Abumrad]

Karen says she started to march with him and it was a light bulb moment, like, oh, I could do activism about my work. So she gathered 10 clerical workers together.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Working in different workplaces. A hospital, an insurance company, a publishing house, a shoe factory.

[Jad Abumrad]

They formed a group, began to meet weekly. And after a few months, we decided.

[Karen Nussbaum]

To create a city wide organization that we decided to call 9 to 5.

[Jad Abumrad]

Over the next couple of years.

[Jane Fonda]

They created Office Workers bill of rights.

[Karen Nussbaum]

We want these minimum standards implemented now.

[Jane Fonda]

And launched at a big press conference. They did studies of, like, the publishing industry and the banking industry.

[Jad Abumrad]

The pay runs up to 40% less than men get for jobs at the same schedule.

[Karen Nussbaum]

There's also Phil Donahue.

[Jad Abumrad]

He had a popular TV talk show, daytime 9 to 5.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Used to do an annual bad boss contest.

[Jane Fonda]

Oh, they were so funny. They were hilarious. Okay, so like, they would hold contests.

[Jad Abumrad]

Donahue would invite the nine to five activists onto the show and they would hold these big contests. We held a contest to determine the worst thing your boss makes you do.

[Jane Fonda]

They'd do it in a big public way. So for instance, a winner was man.

[Dolly Parton]

Who owned his own business.

[Jad Abumrad]

He was late for a meeting and he had a rip in his pants right in the back of his pants. And he asked his secretary to sew the rip while he kept the pants on. He dropped his pants and she sewed the rip. Give me some other winners. Just briefly.

[Jane Fonda]

Then there was the boss who required his secretary to vacuum up his nail clippings from the floor. He won the personal hygiene award.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, that makes my stomach turn. Right.

[Jane Fonda]

And so they would have a bunch of women go deliver it to him front of the news cameras.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so Karen was doing all this, holding all these contests, filing all these lawsuits, fighting for equal pay. She had this movie star friend.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Jane and I saw each other regularly as we worked on ending the war.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, every time we would see each other, she would tell me stories about what the women office workers were up against.

[Karen Nussbaum]

And it was exciting to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, this is Jane Fonda.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Of course, one day Jane just came to me and said, what if we made a Movie.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Karen invites Jane to a meeting of 40 clerical workers that she'd organized. Jane brings some Hollywood people with her.

[Karen Nussbaum]

One of them asked the women, have you ever dreamed of getting even with your boss? And the place lit up. They all had dreamed of getting even with their boss.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Jane Fonda]

I remember one, one, one woman said she imagined putting. Cutting up her boss and putting him in a coffee grinder and then making drip coffee out of him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Jane Fonda]

Another fantasized breaking his knees was a bat as he walked by. I mean, they were, oh, my God. You know, some of them were so violent that we couldn't possibly use them in the movie.

[Jad Abumrad]

But she says when she heard all those dark fantasies start spilling out, and.

[Jane Fonda]

I thought, oh, my God, there it is. There's the movie.

[Jad Abumrad]

20Th Century Fox presents a tribute to.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Anyone who has ever been overworked, underpaid.

[Jad Abumrad]

And pushed to the edge by an ungrateful boss. Quick refresher on the movie in case you haven't seen it or haven't seen it recently. 9 to 5 is the story of three female office workers. Hi. This is Violet. There's Violet.

[Dolly Parton]

Welcome to the front lines.

[Jad Abumrad]

Played by Lily Tomlin. There's Dor Lee.

[Dolly Parton]

Thank you, everybody. I was sleeping.

[Jad Abumrad]

Played by Dolly Parton. And there's Judy. Couldn't we just all get together and. And complain? Played by Jane Fonda. Let's face it, we are in a pink collar ghetto. So they've got this boss, Mr. Hart, who's played by Dabney Coleman, who demeans the female employees, openly harasses Dolly's character.

[Dolly Parton]

Mr. Hart told you before, I'm a married woman.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm a married man.

[Jane Fonda]

That's what makes it so perfect.

[Jad Abumrad]

And the story of the movie is these three women getting revenge. Get him and hunt him down. And it's of course, hilarious and over the top. They inadvertently kidnap him. At one point, they string him up from the ceiling. Help.

[Dolly Parton]

Did you see the look on his face?

[Jad Abumrad]

One of the interesting things we learned is that the original script for the movie was way darker, a little closer in spirit to that 9 to 5 meeting. I mean, there was a cyanide scene written in an electrocution scene, but Jane Fonda nixed that version because she felt that the only way the movie would work as a political vehicle was if it were a farce.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, the way I think make these kind of movies is you make a movie so that even if people don't want to deal with the issues that we're raising, they'll like the movie. Anyway, because it's really funny.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as we know, a man in.

[Dolly Parton]

Hollywood, Jim Brown, goes behind the scenes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of the movie 9 to 5 to find out what the office talk is. People did like the movie. It blew up. Jane remembers women shouting at the screen.

[Jane Fonda]

These were their stories. And I knew that the fact that we were putting their issues up on the screen this way would make a real difference.

[Jad Abumrad]

This was really the first national conversation about workplace harassment. It was like MeToo beta, and it.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Allowed us to explode.

[Jad Abumrad]

Karen says 9 to 5 became a full fledged union and added 20 local chapters.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Almost immediately, it just took off like a rocket.

[Jane Fonda]

Office workers all over the country felt empowered and uplifted and seen for the first time because of the movie.

[Jad Abumrad]

So now we come back to Dolly, who at this point had never been in a movie.

[Karen Nussbaum]

No.

[Jad Abumrad]

And what gave you the idea to cast her?

[Jane Fonda]

It went like this during the process of development.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says she was driving home one.

[Jane Fonda]

Day, I turned the radio on and Dolly Parton was singing Two Doors Down. And I suddenly had a vision of Dolly as a secretary. Just the visual, you know, she can't see her hands typing with those long fingernails. Everything about it made me laugh. And I thought, wow, she's never been in a movie, even if she cannot. Which I had no idea if she could or not. I thought people would want to see the movie because of her. You know, I didn't realize how fabulous the choice would end up being.

[Jad Abumrad]

I wonder, was there any thought in your mind that, like, you're trying to deliver a message, like a political message in a movie, but you are a polarizing figure at this point, and that maybe she was a way to bridge to an audience that you wouldn't normally be able to reach?

[Jane Fonda]

Well, I didn't. That would have implied that I was smarter than I am and more strategic. A real business person would have thought, oh, that would bring in the Southern demographic. That's a good business idea. No, I didn't think that way.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly, in her autobiography, she was very.

[Dolly Parton]

Upfront about the fact that she thought I'd help the film do well in the south.

[Jad Abumrad]

Says the exact opposite. But as for what Dolly was thinking at the time, like to thank all of you for coming this afternoon.

[Dolly Parton]

I'm sure you knew.

[Jad Abumrad]

And she explained this at a press event on the day of the film film's opening.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, I was attracted to the idea of doing 9 to 5 because I had. I'd been looking through scripts for a few months. And so it just seemed like it would be a good idea. And Working for the first time in a film with great people like Jane and Lily, I figured if it was a success, that we would all enjoy, you know, the benefits. And if it was a flop, they could take the blame for it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly said in a very tongue in cheek sort of way, but she was very upfront about it, that she was making a political calculation. She knew that for her country music fans, appearing with Jane Fonda Hanoi Jane.

[Dolly Parton]

Was risky because she's so outspoken and so political. And, you know, a lot of stuff she talks about, I don't necessarily agree with. But then a lot of stuff she talks about, I do. But I just thought, well, now, this ought to be real interesting, because I'm also very opinionated in what I believe in. Although I respect anybody's beliefs and the fact that they're willing to stand up for whatever it is. But I'm also the kind of person that if I don't like where you got it, I can tell you where to put it.

[Jad Abumrad]

But then she says the real reason that she agreed to do the movie, to take that political risk was for the chance to write the music for the film.

[Dolly Parton]

Because the music is most important to me. And I wouldn't have agreed to do 9 to 5 if I hadn't seen it as an outlet for my music, which, you know, that part of my deal was to do the theme song.

[Jane Fonda]

One day, Dolly arrived on the set and she said, hey, y', all, come over here. I think I got a song for us.

[Dolly Parton]

On the set. When we did that with Jane and Lily, I wear these acrylic nails.

[Jane Fonda]

And she used her fingernails like a washboard, kind of, you know, keeping time, rubbing her fingernails together. Clickety, clickety, click.

[Dolly Parton]

Start. I thought it sounded like a typewriter, too. So I do. I tumble out of bed and stumble to the kitchen. Cup of ambition. I love that line. And I remember when I was writing that poor myself and I was going to say coffee, and I thought, a cup of ambition.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Dolly Parton]

And I said, high five.

[Jane Fonda]

And she sang the Working nine to five.

[Dolly Parton]

Working nine to five.

[Jane Fonda]

And I mean, both Lily and I looked at each other and we had goosebumps because we knew this was it and that it was going to be a huge hit and it would become a movement anthem.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, did you know that immediately?

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah.

[Dolly Parton]

The boss won't seem to let me. I swear, sometimes that man is out to get me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jane says from the moment she heard the song, she just knew this was the entire working woman's movement captured, that this was going to outlive the movie because it was all there. Yeah.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah. When people think about working women working, that's the go to song.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as for why it works so.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Well, Nussbaum says it's a perfect anthem.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here's how Karen Nussbaum broke it down to Lynn Neary of npr. She says, check out the sequence of ideas in the song.

[Karen Nussbaum]

It starts with pride. Pour yourself a cup of ambition. And then it goes to grievances. They always take the credit.

[Dolly Parton]

Just use your mind.

[Karen Nussbaum]

It then goes to class conflict. You're just a step on the boss man's ladder. And then it ends with collective power. You're in the same boat with a lot of your friends.

[Dolly Parton]

In the same boat with a lot of your friends.

[Karen Nussbaum]

So in the space of this wildly popular song with a great beat, Dolly Parton just puts it all together all by herself. And it's. And if you feel like you're, you know, the 9 to 5 is on a continuous loop in your brain, it's because you're hearing it all over the place.

[Jad Abumrad]

Then Elizabeth Warren, please join me in welcoming the next president of the United.

[Karen Nussbaum]

States of America, went to make her announcement that she was going to run for president.

[Jad Abumrad]

Elizabeth Warren.

[Karen Nussbaum]

She was playing nine to five.

[Jane Fonda]

Oh, I'm a huge Dolly Parton fan.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, what's not to love? Right before her, the next president of the United States, Hillary Clinton.

[Karen Nussbaum]

She was playing 9 to 5.

[Jad Abumrad]

But here's where you get to the dalitics of it all. You've got one of the great political protest songs of the last, I don't know, 50 years. You can debate me on that. I'll stand by it. It's a song that was born from a movie literally made to promote a union. And yet when Elizabeth Warren tried to use the song. Elizabeth Warren, who is a huge supporter of unions, Dolly's manager, Danny Nazelle, issued a statement saying, we did not approve this request, and we do not approve requests like this of a political nature. Coming up, we asked Dolly what's really behind that. That refusal. And her answer. I gotta say, it has stuck so deep in my head that literally, I've been thinking about it every day for the last 18 months.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Months.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Jad Abumra. Dolly Parton's America will continue in a moment. I'm Scott Hansen, host of NFL Red Zone. Lowe's knows Sundays are for football. That's why we're here to help you get your next DIY project done, even when the clock isn't on your side. Whether that's a new Filtreat filter or Bosch and Cobalt power tools. Lowe's has everything you need to feel like the end of the VP of diy. So get it done and earn your Sunday shop now in store and online. Lowe's official partner of the NFL. Amid ICE raids and with birthright citizenship under threat, historians recall the rise of the dual nation in Nazi Germany, where for a time the illusion of lawfulness prevailed.

[Dolly Parton]

However, if you were part of a disfavored group such as the Jews, you found yourself in a zone of lawlessness.

[Karen Nussbaum]

To track justice on this week's on the Media from wnyc.

[Jad Abumrad]

Find on the media wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jed Abumrad. This is Dolly Parton's America. I'll admit that when I learned about 9 to 5, the labor movement and how it inspired 9 to 5 the movie, and how that gave birth to 9 to 5 the song, which probably right now is being sung at 95 different protests, I'll admit I was a little puzzled by the thing you hear often from Dolly and her team, which is that we don't do politics. We do not approve requests of a political nature. Well, isn't the song a political song? I mean, that's where I was at. Wasn't sure what to make of this thing. Would seem like a contradiction to me. But then always make that joke. We call them Dolly partners. We got to talking about this one moment came up the first time in the lobby of the Savoy Hotel in the UK talking to this guy. I'm Sam Haskell. He's one of Dolly's production partners. We produce movies together. We've done things for NBC, Lifetime. We were sitting in the lobby and we started to talk about dalitics, how anytime a political subject comes up, she'll deflect. And I'll give you a perfect example. We found ourselves nominated for best movie of the year at the Emmys. TV is the vast wonderland. In 2017, the nominees for lead actress in a comedy series are. Well, it just so happened that Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda were also nominated for Grace and Frankie. So I had this idea that I let become everybody else's idea, but I had this idea that we should have the three of them reunite for the first time since 9 to 5 because they're all three Emmy nominees at the same award show. That was your idea? That was my idea. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here they are again. And still working at nine to five. Here are three of tonight's nominees. Lily Tomlin Dolly Parton and Jane Fonda. Well, if you'll remember, they came out with Dolly in the middle. Thank you.

[Dolly Parton]

Oh, that's nice.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, we appreciate.

[Dolly Parton]

And personally, I have been waiting for a 9 to 5 reunion ever since we did the first one.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, can you walk me through that moment from your perspective?

[Dolly Parton]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So it's Trump's been in office for about 10 months, nine months at this point. The three of you walk out, you're gonna present an award for best supporting actor. First thing that happens is Jane Fonda says, I forget what it was.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, it was a line actually from the movie line Hypocritical.

[Jane Fonda]

You're a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot.

[Jad Abumrad]

Back in 1980, in that movie, we refused to be controlled by a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Really?

[Jad Abumrad]

And in 2017, we still refused to be controlled by a sexist, egotist, lying, hypocritical bigot.

[Dolly Parton]

It was really the famous line from the show nine to five. And a lot of people didn't know that, but they were using it in a roundabout way to apply to Donald Trump.

[Jad Abumrad]

Your eyes got really wide when they said it.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, I didn't like it. Now, I had already told Jane Lilly, I said, now look, I'm not going to get into the politics of anything. So they wanted, they had, the writers had written up this whole stuff for us to say. I said, I'm not saying it. I don't do politics. I have too many fans on both sides of the fence. Of course, I have my opinion about everything, but I learned years ago to keep your mouth shut about things. I saw what happened to the Dixie Chicks and let me just stop the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Tape for a second. When Dolly talks about what happened to the Dixie Chicks, what she's referring to is something that happened in March of 2003. The Dixie Chicks were the highest selling female band of all time. They had a number one song. They were touring Europe. But then in London, Natalie Maine, the lead singer, is talking to the London crowd and she says, we're ashamed of the President of the United States from Texas. Kind of hard to hear, but she says, we're ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas. She was referring to George W. Bush, who is from Texas. So were the Dixie Chicks. London crowd loves it. But the London story was picked up by the Associated Press and printed in.

[Dolly Parton]

Newspapers all over the United states.

[Jad Abumrad]

This was 18 months after 9, 11, and just 10 days before the US would invade Iraq. And how they could say, I'm ashamed that the president's from Texas. Come on, man. Traitors. Dixie sluts anti America.

[Jane Fonda]

I think they could send Natalie over.

[Jad Abumrad]

To Iraq, strap her to a bomb.

[Jane Fonda]

And just drop her over Baghdad. I never want to hear another Dixie Chavison again.

[Jad Abumrad]

We're gonna boycott them for their music, and we're gonna boycott you for playing it.

[Karen Nussbaum]

If you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Country radio overnight turns its back on the Dixie Chicks. As a result of statements made by members of the Dixie Chicks at a concert, two radio networks banned the Dixie Chicks from their playlists. At a chain level, the Chicks number.

[Karen Nussbaum]

One hit Traveling Soldier quickly fell from the top of the charts.

[Jad Abumrad]

Their record sales crashed and their career kind of crashed, too. All because of one split second comment.

[Jane Fonda]

Aimed at President Bush right before the war.

[Karen Nussbaum]

War with Iraq.

[Dolly Parton]

I have as many fans that are Democrats as I do Republicans. And you don't want to hurt anybody. And it's not my place to be doing that anyway. I'm an entertainer. That's what I said to them. I'm an entertainer. I am not up here to bash somebody else.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Really.

[Dolly Parton]

So do y' all just do what you do? I'm not playing that game. Eva Tester goes lying, hypocritical bigot.

[Karen Nussbaum]

So.

[Jad Abumrad]

So here's what happens. That being said, tonight we're here to.

[Karen Nussbaum]

Recognize some men who conduct themselves with the utmost integrity.

[Jad Abumrad]

They're nominated for their extraordinary work in supporting roles. Right at this moment, Dolly steps in.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, I know best support hadn't been for good support. Well, yeah, shocking off here would be more like Flopsy and Droopy, but. And I think try to turn it around and make it kind of funny. And instead of doing that, I like, I say I can always depend on a boob joke, you know, if I have to. That's why I gotta lean back on them. Like I said, I don't know if I'm supporting them or they're supporting me. How about a shout out for Dabney Coleman out there? Actually, I just. I'm here to have a good time tonight and I'm just hoping. Well, congratulations on your nomination for your show. I'm just hoping. Yeah, thank you. I'm just hoping that I'm going to get one of those Grace and Frankie vibrators in my swag bag tonight.

[Jad Abumrad]

Within just a few seconds, Dolly had disarmed the whole room.

[Dolly Parton]

Anyway, here are the nominees for outstanding supporting actor in a limited series or movie. That whole night, they had just. Everything was just bashing, you know, Donald Trump and It wouldn't make any difference how I feel about him. I just thought, my God, you know, it's like somebody, you know, just. Why does it all have to be about politics?

[Jad Abumrad]

In the days after the Emmys, some people praised Dolly and how she sort of navigated the situation. She's done a very good job of keeping herself in the clean and the narrow, but she also came in for a fair amount of criticism from all angles. I want to talk briefly about the statements made by Hanoi Jane Fonda and Lily Lib tarded Tomlin at last night's Emmy Award ceremony. She knew what was going down. She knew what they were going to do. Parton stayed silent. Does Dolly Parton support those statements made. Because I am a lifelong fan of country music, and I think that country music fans should be outrageous, outraged. Some people on the left attacked her for not speaking out against President Trump. Others on the right attacked her for not speaking out for President Trump.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, you could have upheld him. You should have said something. I thought, no, I shouldn't have said nothing. Because if I'd have said anything about Trump, anything good or bad, or if I'd have said anything, just saying, well, you know, this or that, I'd have got booed out of that house. I'd have been probably up there on my own. But I didn't. I wasn't interested in that. I wasn't going to say anything good or bad, no matter what I thought or felt. I just knew that I wasn't playing that game. It's just. But I want to be careful about that because people, you know, it's like. Anyway, it's. It's just scary.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Dolly Parton]

No matter what you say, it's wrong.

[Jad Abumrad]

At this point, Shima jumped in with a question. Was when. When you saw. When. When you're in a room and everyone's attacking this man, like Trump because of your story of forgiveness, does it almost make you feel like you want to protect him?

[Dolly Parton]

Yes. What was your. He wanted to say, let's pray for the president. Why don't we pray for the president? If we're having all these problems, just, you know, why don't we just pray for Mr. President? You know, it's like, I wanted to say that, but I thought, no, keep your damn mouth shut. That won't work either. They don't, you know, so tit joke. When all else fails, be funny or try to be funny.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow, that's really interesting. I have to be honest, that moment messed me up. I kept thinking about it, you know, I mean, I came in thinking that her refusal to talk about Trump was probably mostly a business calculation. She has a lot that she needs to protect, including a massive charitable foundation. So I think we can all get that. But it's also easy to see that silence cynically, like a refusal to speak truth just because it might hurt the bottom line. But when she said, let's pray for the President, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I thought, oh, no, no, no. That's not all that's happening here. I mean, this is not somebody who is denying the reality of America. If you just look at the 9 to 5 album itself, in addition to the song 9 to 5 Deep, you've got a song about the racist treatment of deportees, and there's another labor rights song on there. There's a song about the plight of mine workers dying in mines. Like, she's been singing about political social issues since the 60s. We talked about this in episode one. So this is not someone who's in denial. But the Trump comment, it made me realize, oh, I get it. She's saying her stake in the sand is that she will not cast anybody out. I thought back to those press conferences when Dolly started working with Jane Fonda. Her country music fans would boo when Jane's name came up, but in every press conference and interview, she would insist.

[Dolly Parton]

But there is this sweet, gentle side in Jane's that I think is. Is so. It's so sweet and lovable and side that the public never sees. And I know that it's hard to believe, but she's. She's a very caring person.

[Jad Abumrad]

I thought back to all our conversations about Porter Wagner.

[Dolly Parton]

I just, finally just thought, I'm going to break myself if I don't go.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is a guy that would be really easy to turn into a cardboard cut out of a misogynistic ass who held her back. And frankly, I was going that direction in my questioning. There's a power thing. Thing happening for sure.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, it's more complicated than that. Just think about it. He had had this show for years. He had. He didn't need me.

[Jad Abumrad]

She just refused to flatten the guy.

[Dolly Parton]

He wasn't expecting me to be all.

[Jad Abumrad]

And it seems suddenly clear to me that, yes, while there is a business logic here, this is also a spiritual stance. This is an ethos that she has chosen. And it is undeniably one of the reasons that she can have the fan base that she has, because everybody feels safe at a Dolly Parton concert afterwards.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, I realized that it had Put Dolly perhaps in a. In a difficult situation because Dolly is not a political activist. And, you know, many of her fans are Trump supporters. So I, I think it was awkward for her, and I felt bad about that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you talk about that with her afterwards?

[Jane Fonda]

I don't remember. I don't remember. But, you know, I, I heard that there, you know, there were. That there. There was some, you know, some of the fans objected to it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Jane Fonda]

And, you know, I very much respect Dolly's. She. She does have a very diverse fan base. She loves her fans and the. And her fans love her. I mean, I've been to her concerts where her fans are, you know, tears rolling down their face. I mean, there's a connection between Dolly and her fans unlike any that I, I have ever seen in my life.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Jane Fonda]

And she has to protect that. I'm in a very, very different place. Some people. There's almost a symbiotic relationship with fans. I'm not in that situation. It's very different for me, trying to.

[Dolly Parton]

Tuck my waist in, but I don't think I'm ever going to do it like you. Well, we're good. We're just about the same side.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gorgeous lighting. Whoever did it, thank you.

[Dolly Parton]

Hi.

[Jad Abumrad]

Telephone's off. If you're new to the party, back in London, a couple hours before the physical knife situation on the red carpet, we got to watch Dolly continually fend off other more veiled attempts to pin her down on politics. What do you think?

[Dolly Parton]

You know, without naming names, there are.

[Jad Abumrad]

People in politics who might talk about.

[Dolly Parton]

Women in less favorable terms than others.

[Jad Abumrad]

Grabbing them by certain parts of their anatomy. I mean, do you think that kind of language is useful or helpful in.

[Dolly Parton]

American politics these days?

[Jad Abumrad]

Anytime the President came up, which was.

[Dolly Parton]

Often what people do to each other. I'm sorry, I didn't get the first part of it. Well, I'm talking about President Trump, trying.

[Jad Abumrad]

To allude into him in the language he talks about grabbing women by certain parts of their anatomy.

[Dolly Parton]

Oh, I'm not even going to talk about any of that stuff, because I refuse to talk. I just think people should treat everybody with respect.

[Jad Abumrad]

Every time Trump came up, Dolly shut it down. And it did make me think at this moment when, like, even having cereal somehow becomes about President Trump. Is it even possible to do what she's trying to do? Is it even okay?

[Dolly Parton]

I think this code of silence is what's keeping women down.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just days after we return from that UK trip, Stella Barton, Dolly's sister, who's also a recording artist, appeared on A podcast called Our Stories and spoke with a woman named Adrina Austin.

[Dolly Parton]

And I find that is very disheartening to me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Basically pointed a finger at her sister.

[Dolly Parton]

My sister should speak out more. I honestly call her out. She should speak out more. And I'm ashamed of my sister for keeping her mouth shut. She can run it all day long when it's about something else. Well, speak up against injustice now.

[Jad Abumrad]

Who's your sister? Just for people who may not know, Dolly Parton.

[Dolly Parton]

Speak up. You know, it's like we've just divided. It's just tore my own family apart, this political stuff. We can't even have a. A nice dinner like we used to have. We'd laugh about things that was going on, something going on in the family or some jokes or whatever. Now everybody's arguing about politics. And I said, can we just stop and eat? Let's stop. Don't do that. We don't need to talk about that now.

[Jad Abumrad]

Shima jumped in with one more question. Sometimes when I don't speak up, people get hurt because I don't say what needed to be said.

[Dolly Parton]

Do you ever feel like by not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Opposing, like maybe it is hurting others or you could be taking other people's pain away? Do you ever worry about that or think about that?

[Dolly Parton]

No, because I know that when the time comes, I will speak out. I have a great sense of timing, and that's always worked in my favor. That's why I say I don't just join the marches. I don't just join the group. I know that my time will come, and hopefully when it does, I will say my peace.

[Jad Abumrad]

When she said that, I thought, when would be a good time to speak? What would need to change? What would she say? How would we hear it? Would we hear it? I thought about a Quaker meeting I'd gone to once with a friend where they tell you to wait in silence until the inspiration compels you to speak. And so you wait for something to happen. Then I thought about her music, which never seems to wait. It just comes in this unending stream and she channels that stuff. So in lieu of her saying her piece, we certainly have her singing it. Dolly Parton's America was produced, written and edited by me and Shima Olayai, brought to you by awesome Audio. That's OSM Audio and WNYC Studios. We had production help from W. Harry Fortuna. Original music by Leroy Anderson. The typewriter used with the permission of Woodbury Music Company. Thanks to the folks at Sony. Special thanks to Peter at HarperCollins Lynn Sacco. Huge thanks to Pat Resnick, Karen Nussbaum and her archives at Wayne State University. Sam Shahi, David Dodson, Pat Walters, Lulu Miller, Suzi Lechtenberg and Soren Wheeler. Thanks, as always to my dad. I also want to take this moment to thank Dolly Barton and Danny Nazelle and the entire crew for being so generous with their time. They did not have to spend the amount of time that they spent with us. They did not have to answer all of our sometimes very annoying questions. But they did, and we are grateful. We've partnered with Apple Music to bring you a companion playlist that will be updated each week with music you'll hear in the episode, plus some of our favorites. You can find that on our [e-mail] Next week on Dolly Parton's America, you got absent.

[Dolly Parton]

Look, I'm a writer, Jolene's a whore.

[Jad Abumrad]

We take a Dolly classic and turn it on its head.

[Dolly Parton]

I got my little melodica.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, I love that verse. It's so good. Oh, that's coming up next week on Dolly Parton's America. NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to learn more.