Dolly Parton's America

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Dolly Parton's America"

Podcast: Dolly Parton’s America
Episode: Episode 7 – “Dolly Parton’s America”
Date: December 3, 2019
Host: Jad Abumrad
Producer: Shima Oliaee
Key Guests/Contributors: University of Tennessee students; Professor Lynn Sacco; historians Elizabeth Catte and Wilma Dunaway; Dolly Parton (archival and interview clips)

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Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the complexity of Dolly Parton's place in American culture, particularly her role as an icon of Appalachian identity. Through the lens of a University of Tennessee history class named “Dolly Parton’s America,” the show explores themes of regional pride, shame, stereotypes, economic exploitation, and the power—and problems—of hero figures like Dolly. The episode unpacks how Appalachian students wrestle with both adoration and resentment toward Dolly, and how her public persona intersects with painful histories of regional caricature and marginalization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dolly Parton’s America College Class [01:30–06:56]

• Host Jad Abumrad and producer Shima Oliaee attend a University of Tennessee class called “Dolly Parton’s America,” taught by Professor Lynn Sacco.
• The course was inspired by Dolly’s honorary doctorate speech at UT and asks students: “What is Dolly Parton’s America?”
• [03:31] Prof. Sacco on Dolly: “I’m 63 and in second wave feminism. I consider her an embarrassment.” Sacco admits Dolly challenged her initial biases.
• [04:57] Dolly’s Speech (archival): Sense of childhood dreaming and sincerity that moved listeners and changed minds.

2. Student Experiences: Regional Identity & Shame [06:56–17:18]

• Students introduce themselves as natives of very small Southern towns, many first-generation college students from religious backgrounds who "grew up with Dolly."
• The notion of Dolly as a “Southern Jesus” figure, worshipped with almost religious fervor—especially visible in stories about college football and Dolly’s spiritual power connected to school pride.
  Quotes:
  • “[07:55] F: Saint Dolly.”
  • “[10:20] F: I’m a very religious person...it was a very religious experience. The power of Dolly Parton.”
• Several recount experiences of being pressured to lose their Southern accents to be taken seriously.
  • “[14:20] D: ...my mom was like, hey, we need to sit down. If you want people to take you seriously, we’re gonna have to work on the way you talk.”
  • “[15:41] F: I willed my... I willingly got rid of my accent because...kids wouldn’t talk to me... they treat me like I was like four.”

3. Tracing Hillbilly Stereotypes: Historical Context [17:18–28:35]

• The class essays focus on prevailing themes of shame and “hillbilly” stereotypes in Appalachian identity.
• Extensive historical journey:
  • Travel writers and media in the late 1800s/early 1900s skewed perceptions, painting the region as populated by backward, peculiar “natives.”
  • Silent movies and later Hollywood cemented hillbilly caricatures.
  • Settlement schools and liberal arts colleges in Appalachia exploited stereotypes to raise funds—per historian Wilma Dunaway:
    “They constructed...this rhetoric. ‘You have to save [them] from themselves.’” [24:14–24:23]
  • Economic exploitation: Northern industrialists used these myths to justify taking land and labor, especially in coal mining.
  • The term “redneck” arose in the Battle of Blair Mountain (1921), signifying unionists—later turned into a slur.
    • Historian Elizabeth Catte:
      “Hillbilly was a degrading term for white people who politically organized with African Americans.” [28:00]

4. Dolly’s Role: Reinforcing or Resisting Stereotypes? [29:14–34:44]

• Students hotly debate whether Dolly perpetuates or resists these harmful tropes.
  • “[29:26] I: She’s making money off of it...she is profiting off of this practice.”
  • “[30:12] E (Elizabeth Catte): Dolly is an extractive capitalist. But what Dolly extracts are ideas and not minerals.”
  • Others argue that Dolly’s unapologetic Southernness is empowering:
    • “[31:27] D: ...it was really important to me to have a role model who was unapologetically where she was from.”
    • “[32:26] E: Dolly has always been sort of a validation of the Appalachian identity...it just made it feel better to be Appalachian.”

5. Material Impact: Dolly’s Philanthropy [33:28–34:44]

• Students acknowledge the direct economic and educational impact of Dolly’s initiatives, such as Dollywood employment, scholarships, Imagination Library, and disaster relief.
  • “[33:34] E: ...she employs, like, all these people. And then also her book drive.”
  • “[33:57] B (Jad): ...after the Gatlinburg fires, she raised $12 million to help people...rebuild.”

6. The Problem of Ongoing Shame & Respect [34:44–36:07]

• Students question why, if Dolly helps so much, stigma about Southern identity persists.
  • “[34:44] C: If Dolly exploited the history but helps the people, then why are people like Hannah still being bullied for having a Southern accent?”
• Lively debate over whether Dolly legitimizes or undercuts Southern respectability.

7. Naming Institutions & Taking Dolly Seriously [35:06–35:45]

• Discussion on whether naming the UT College of Arts and Sciences after Dolly would elevate or diminish the institution.
  • “[35:26] F: I would hate that so much.”
  • “[35:35] D: Maybe you don’t want to take her advice on how to do arts and science.”

8. Dolly’s Perspective: Pride vs. Shame [36:07–38:40]

• Dolly herself weighs in on the debate about whether she perpetuates harmful images:
  • “[36:07] H (Dolly): I really don’t...I hate it with all my heart when they do stereotype country people in...Hollywood.”
  • “There’s a gentleness and a warmth and a realness...to just pure country people that’s sacred.”
  • On changing for others:
    • “[37:35] H: ...I would rather people have to listen a little closer...than to try to fake it and say it in a way that is not real for me.”
    • “I just don’t get that when people have to change their accent to please somebody else. But if you feel it’s right for you, that’s fine too. Choices, choices. We have choices.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Prof. Lynn Sacco on Dolly's image, pre-conversion:

  “I consider her an embarrassment.” [03:31]

• A student's summary of shame:

  “I used to have a thicker Southern accent, and I kind of repress it now, and I kind of wish that I had not done that.” [13:20]

• On being compelled by Dolly:

  “The power of Dolly compelled the Vols to win.” [09:13]

• On accent and intelligence:

  “If you want people to take you seriously, we’re gonna have to work on the way you talk.” [14:20]

• Prof. Wilma Dunaway on stereotypes as fundraising tools:

  “They constructed...‘You have to save [them] from themselves.’” [24:16]

• Student debate over Dolly’s role:

  “Dolly is an extractive capitalist. But what Dolly extracts are ideas and not minerals.” (Elizabeth Catte) [30:12]

  “To see a woman be so ambitious and...unapologetically Appalachian...it just made it feel better to be Appalachian.” [32:26]

• Dolly Parton on stereotypes:

  “There’s a gentleness and a warmth and a...thing about just pure country people that’s sacred.” [36:07]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:30–06:56 — Introduction to the class and the framing question: What is Dolly Parton's America?
• 06:56–17:18 — Students describe their background, regional shame, and pressure to change.
• 17:18–28:35 — Deep dive into Appalachian stereotypes, their history, and their social/economic effects.
• 29:14–34:44 — Debate about Dolly as a helper or exploiter of Appalachian identity.
• 34:44–36:07 — The limits of Dolly’s influence and continued stigma.
• 36:07–38:40 — Dolly herself responds about pride, representation, and authenticity.

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Conclusion

The episode layers personal testimony, academic analysis, and Dolly’s own thoughts to illustrate the deep, ongoing tensions within Appalachian identity—and how Dolly Parton, intentionally or not, sits at the nexus of stereotype, empowerment, pride, and pain. Far from resolving this “hot mess,” the host leaves listeners with a portrait of both the strengths and complexities in the “Dollyverse”—and the ways public figures like Dolly can heal or exacerbate regional wounds.

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For next time:
The episode teases a coming exploration of Dolly’s approach to race, memory, and historical controversy—continuing the series’ deep dive into the contradictions and impact of one of America’s most beloved icons.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Shima Oliayi, the producer of Dolly Parton's America. Before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to give a large, big, loud thank you to everyone who's been listening, enjoying telling your friends about it. As you might know, this series was funded by WNYC Studios public radio, which means it's ultimately funded by listeners like you. If you like the series, if you've been enjoying it so far and you'd like to hear more in the future, we've made a really easy way for you to donate. You can either text the word Dolly to 70101. We'll text you with a link on how you can support or you can go to dollypartinsamerica.org donate and make a contribution. Anyway, thank you again so much for listening and onto the show.

[B]

I'm Chad Abumra. This is Dolly Parton's America. Episode seven, Dolly Parton's America.

[C]

A cycle of condemnation and salvation.

[B]

In the next two episodes, we're gonna tackle some of the trickier aspects of the Dollyverse.

[D]

The hillbilly is a caricature of Appalachian stereotypes.

[B]

Questions about the south, who moonshines for.

[E]

A living, doesn't know how to read identity and likely has sex with his cousin. And there's no mention of slavery.

[F]

This is part of the reason why Charlottesville happened.

[B]

Race. We'll take on some of that in this episode, some in the next. Sort of a two parter. Okay, part one.

[F]

I've been up for over 24 hours right now. I wanted to die.

[B]

We start things off at the University of Tennessee in a fluorescent lit classroom. Easter weekend. About 12 college students, all history majors, shuffle in looking like zombies but talking a mile a minute.

[C]

That's such a good hour.

[B]

Shima and I have returned to this class a bunch of times over the past two years. Anyways, class gave us the confidence to do this series. Certainly gave us the name because the class is called Dolly Parton's America.

[G]

You guys are scaring me because I.

[H]

Am going to be the least energetic.

[G]

Person in this room.

[B]

I think today they very generously allowed us to borrow the name, use it for our series. Today all the students are handing in their final papers which have to answer the question, what is Dolly Parton's America?

[G]

Who knows where Kelsey is? Is she the only person missing? We're going to talk about your papers today because I want to find out the answer to this question.

[E]

All right.

[B]

That voice you're hearing is Lynn Sacco, who teaches the course.

[G]

Well, What I did was when I was asked to do, I was asked to think up a course.

[B]

Lynn is in her 60s, wiry silver hair, black cat eye glasses. She says the University of Tennessee asked her to develop a course that would teach these students how to do history. You know, the basics. What's the difference between a primary and secondary source?

[G]

For example, what I was supposed to focus on here is just the sources.

[B]

And for that, she could have chosen any topic for them to study. Why Dolly Parton? When did that pop into your head?

[G]

It popped in my head when she came here for graduation. I think it was in 09.

[B]

It is my honor to present to you, Dolly Parton, for the degree Doctor of Humane and Musical Letters, 2009. Dolly is presented with an honorary degree from the University of Tennessee. Lynn says she wasn't planning on attending because she wasn't a fan.

[G]

I'm 63 and in second wave feminism. I consider her an embarrassment.

[B]

Why?

[H]

Well, she.

[G]

You know, she was like, all about her bosoms. And then my friends here, when she was coming for graduation, they lost their minds. And I'm like, why do you even like her? They were like, lynn, you don't know. So I went to graduation.

[B]

Wow.

[G]

And it totally changed my view of her.

[H]

I never dreamed, ever, ever, ever dreamed that I would be a commencement speaker. Now, saying, yes, I can do that. No problem. But making speeches, I'm a little nervous.

[G]

Seriously. She comes out in her gown, and then the governor comes over and the president. So they give her the degree, and she just stood there and just sobbed during it and seemed very genuine.

[B]

Lynn says something about seeing Dolly be so moved. Moved her.

[H]

If I had but one wish for you, it would be for you to dream more. Now, when I was a kid, I used to put a tin can on a broom handle. I used to stick it down in the crack out on the porch of our old cabin. And of course, in my mind's eye, I was standing on stage with my guitar, singing my heart out in this microphone. And those were not chickens out there in the yard. It was my audience.

[B]

And Lynn says, just seeing how the students in the audience absolutely melted in her presence, it just turned her around.

[G]

And I thought, this is the best graduation talk. This would be an interesting class. Dolly Parton's America. She would be it.

[B]

So, like I said, students had just written these essays trying to answer the question, what is Dolly Parton's America? We read those essays, and they were so. A lot of things, a lot of thoughts happened. And so after class, shima and I begged Lynn Sacco to let us get some of these students into a room. Okay, so maybe just. Can we just do rapid fire introductions?

[G]

Kate, Hannah, Laney, Mallory, Paulie, Garrett, Will, Justin, Lynn, Shima, Jad.

[B]

Okay, so maybe let's see, where to start? Like. Okay, so I'm gonna take. I'm gonna steal your question if you don't mind, because it's such a great, unanswerable question. So what is Dolly's America? I know, I know, it's too, it's big.

[I]

But four weeks to write a 10 page paper to answer that question.

[B]

Now that you're removed from the paper writing, what is it? In your own words, not in a historical, scholarly sort of way. Like what is it to you? A hot mess. Oh, God.

[D]

Dr. Sick.

[B]

What followed?

[F]

Oh, yeah, but yeah, you did.

[B]

I'm kidding. Was a three hour raucous conversation about hillbillies, hillbilly stereotypes and pimping. Hollywood. Hollywood and moonshiners and coal miners and how Dolly does or does not relate to any of this stuff. Yeah, who's pimping who? They're like, they know who. And we'll get to some of that in a second. But something I feel like I should mention is that all of these kids are of the place that they're talking about. They all grew up in the Appalachian South.

[D]

I'm from Charleston, Tennessee.

[C]

Cleveland, Tennessee.

[E]

Clintwood, Virginia.

[B]

Big town, small town.

[D]

Fewer than a thousand. Charleston is around 650, I believe. Tiny towns.

[C]

Yeah, tiny. My family has lived here since the 18th century, like 20 minutes up the road.

[E]

Well, I lived in the woods down in between two hills. You know, our nearest neighbor was like 20 minutes away, walking.

[B]

Many of the students told us they're the first in their families to go to college.

[F]

Growing up, I mean, like my life was pretty much tied to my church and where I was. Because my street, everyone on my street was Methodist. We all went to Brandon First Methodist.

[B]

We were all very, I'd say about three quarters of the students came from very religious backgrounds.

[I]

Yeah, I was raised pretty religious too.

[D]

When you're a Baptist too. Baptist too, it becomes your whole life. Everything that we did at school was about our ministry. And so we were sitting in class and we were thinking about, like, how can I share Jesus? In my math classroom, Dr. Sacco told.

[F]

Me if I told another story about church, she was going to lose it earlier today just because it's Holy Week. So I was talking a lot about like all the.

[B]

And almost all the students told us that they grew up With Dolly.

[F]

Saint Dolly.

[C]

Saint Dolly.

[D]

Thank you.

[E]

The Southern Jesus.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And her Southern Jesus. Ness of it all was really underlined for us when the talk turned to football.

[F]

Honestly, I. Like, last semester, like, once a week, I thought about freshman year when the marching band did the Dolly Parton halftime show. No, I remember at that game.

[B]

Yikes. Ouch. 24, three.

[F]

We were losing to Georgia.

[B]

Was it.

[F]

I think it was Georgia. Georgia or something.

[B]

Tennessee now trying to climb out of the 21 point hole. Let's just say that UT football has gone through some tough years.

[F]

I just need to remember. I remember there was this moment in, like, the halftime show.

[B]

Marching band did a Dolly.

[F]

My friend told me, like, oh, yeah. They wanted Dolly Parton to come and be there, but she couldn't. Cause she was recording something. But she'd recorded a video.

[H]

Hey, I'm Dr. Dolly. Better known as Double D. Hey, I want to give a shout out to the pride of the Southland Band. And thank you for playing some of my music today. I'm very honored and very proud. Go Balls.

[F]

She'd recorded a video, and she said, go, Vols.

[E]

And, like, here we go.

[B]

Touchdown. And we started winning.

[F]

And, like, I remember all my friends. One of my friends, my friend said, the reason we won the game is because the power of Dolly compelled the Balls to win. You know, it was freshman year. It was my freshman year.

[C]

38, 31. Tennessee came back at halftime. I remember because that was an amazing game.

[F]

Compelled the Balls to win.

[I]

This was last year when we had that Hail Mary. I'm like, well, of course, Dolly was year before last. I watched it with a bunch of friends in the Hess dorm lobby. And when we won, it was so crazy. I got video of it, too. This is the game, and this is when we made the Hail Mary. It went crazy.

[B]

He pulled out his phone and showed us video. Somebody.

[I]

Somebody was going crazy. They hit their shoulder on the wall and got blood all over the wall. Oh, my goodness. One of my friends, her name was Destiny. She's crying on the ground. Oh, my God.

[B]

You guys are animals.

[I]

Yeah. Oh, everybody was.

[A]

It does look religious.

[F]

I'm a very religious person. Oh, my God. Like, I could feel Jesus Christ in that moment. It was a very religious experience. The power of Dolly Parton.

[B]

But we would discover that for these students, that power, it cuts both ways. That's after the break.

[H]

Okay.

[A]

I have to tell you, I was.

[E]

Just looking on ebay, where I go for all kinds of things I love.

[B]

And there it was, that hologram trading card. One of the rarest the last one I needed for my set.

[A]

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams.

[B]

One of a kind. Ebay had it.

[A]

And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you.

[B]

Get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.

[G]

Millions of finds, each with a story. EBay things people love.

[B]

Amid ice raids and with birthright citizenship under threat, historians recall the rise of.

[G]

The dual nation in Nazi Germany, where.

[B]

For a time the delusion of lawfulness prevailed.

[D]

However, if you were part of a disfavored group such as the Jews, you found yourself in a zone of lawlessness.

[B]

2 Track justice on this week's on the Media from WNYC.

[G]

Find on the media wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

Dolly Partons America. I'm Jad Abumrad. We're back with the Dolly Parton's America class at the University of Tennessee. And the thing that we discovered, really, the reason that we were so taken and wanted to make an episode about this class is that though Dolly plays a massive role in the lives of these students, it's not a simple role. Like the moment we started talking about.

[I]

Her with them, my first thing moving out here was Dollywood.

[B]

It led to some really personal stories. For example, we asked each of the students, what was your first encounter with Dolly Parton? And one of the students, will, told.

[C]

Us, really my first exposure was the Imagination Library, of all things.

[B]

No kidding. Yeah.

[C]

I would.

[B]

The Imagination Library is Dolly's literacy program that gives tens of millions of free books to kids from the moment they're born up until they start school. In some areas of the south, it's the only literacy program that exists.

[C]

Yeah, I went to a small rural high school about. Or elementary school, sorry, about 20 miles north of here. And we would. A lot of kids got those books, and we got some of the books for the school from that program as well.

[B]

Can you tell me anything specific you remember about those? The first encounter with the books or like, what was the book? Do you know?

[C]

Well, the first book I remember is the Coat of Many Colors book that she did. I remember my teachers were hell bent on reading that to us and having us read that.

[B]

You read it and you think what you remember.

[C]

At the time, it's just be who you are. And I've kind of taken that with me. I wholeheartedly embraced that. I'm honestly ashamed of it. I used to have a thicker Southern accent, and I kind of repress it now, and I kind of wish that.

[B]

I had not Done that as an eight year old. You were trying to be less Southern?

[C]

A little bit, yeah.

[B]

Soon as he said that inset. Lot of nods around the room. Yeah.

[D]

I remember a conversation with my mom when I was about 14 or 15, I think it was like, I was going into high school and I was, like, starting to try harder in school and take more advanced classes. I was starting to do leadership stuff, and my mom was like, hey, we need to sit down. If you want people to take you seriously, we're gonna have to work on the way you talk. And I like. We've had smaller versions of this conversation before where I would say, oh, it's 10. And she was like, no, no, it's 10.

[B]

Lainey says her and her mom would actually practice words throughout the day.

[D]

Four, four, four.

[H]

Get, get, get.

[B]

Trying to pronounce each word. So there was no hint of Southern accent in there at all.

[D]

And we would do this back and forth all day. But yeah, she's like, you need to talk lower and slower because you're gonna have to work twice as hard for people to take you half as seriously.

[B]

Ollie, you're nodding. What are you thinking about?

[E]

I've had a lot of similar experiences. Ain't Aunt Holler. Hollow Flower.

[H]

Flower.

[E]

You know, my. I was sat down when I was younger as well and told that I would have to learn to straighten out my accent.

[B]

Far.

[E]

Fire.

[B]

Oil. Oil.

[C]

My parents were much more cant. Can't. They never sat down and said, son, you need to change your accent. I willingly changed it. Can't.

[B]

Can't.

[C]

You know, as a kid, in addition to being based here, my dad was in the military. We moved around, so I got to hear a bunch of different accents. And I thought, wow, I'm different. I want to sound like them. Genuinely. Genuinely. Come on. Genuinely. Crick Creek.

[F]

I mean, I don't have my accent anymore. I got rid of mine when I.

[D]

Was in middle school.

[B]

You willed it away.

[F]

I willed my. I willingly got rid of my accent because as a kid, I went to D.C. for a people to people ambassadorship. Like, I was a representative for me Mississippi. It was a whole. It was a really big deal. And I remember kids wouldn't talk to me, y', all.

[B]

You all.

[F]

Because they realized where I was from, like, within five minutes. And they wouldn't speak to me, mine, mine, accent, accent at all. No, Because I was some dumb kid from Mississippi. They didn't think I could read. I got excited about snow because I'd never seen snow before. And they're like, oh, you know, like, they treat me like I was like four. I was like, okay, we're getting rid of it. Just like full stop getting rid of it.

[G]

This is painful to hear. When I got here in 2004, I could not understand anyone in class.

[B]

Lynn says when she first moved to Knoxville from Chicago, she couldn't understand the students at all. And so she told them she was hard of hearing because I didn't want.

[G]

The students to think, like, I couldn't understand them, but I couldn't. And it took a couple of years for me to get used to it. But then also the number of students with those accents started to decrease. And I was thinking maybe it was something like television. And I think it's really painful to hear that your parents told you, like, essentially not to sound dumb is really painful.

[B]

After a brief moment of silence, Shima jumped in.

[A]

I think it's also interesting that, you know, when you guys started sharing, like, where you're from and that how you're, how you're stereotyped, how people think you're dumb, or you had to learn how to change in different, you know, change how you speak. Don't. Do you feel like, do you think that I really want to know? Do you think that people from the south are not as smart as other people?

[F]

That's a lot to unpack.

[I]

Statistical. Like you, you could look at education like funding and like pass rates and like, you do see that the south is at more of a disadvantage educationally.

[B]

All this really brings us to those essays in a way.

[G]

Okay, go ahead.

[D]

Lainey Goodwill, Dolly Parton's America Searching for Authenticity in Postmodern Society.

[C]

Garrett Woods, Dolly Parton's America A Cycle of Condemnation and Salvation.

[B]

After all, the mission of the class was to write a paper that answers the question, what is Dolly Parton America? Very open ended question.

[E]

Kate Kelly constructed Dolly, constructed Appalachia, and.

[B]

In nearly every case, Mallory Donahue pimping out Appalachia. What the students actually ended up doing was sort of putting Dolly in a larger historical context and really tackling that shame that they all seem to have inherited and asking, where did it come from?

[D]

Now it's time to talk about the most frequently slandered Southern character, the hillbilly. The hillbilly is a caricature of Appalachian dumb, white, poor, dirty, barefoot, backwards.

[B]

All the essays really focus in on that idea, which is something that's followed Dolly her whole career. This is Dolly talking to Barbara Walters in 1977.

[E]

What?

[H]

I have called you a hillbilly. If it had it Would have been something very natural, but I would have probably kicked the shins or something. No, actually, but when I think of hillbillies, am I thinking of your kind of people? I think you probably aren't. The people that grew up where I was were the ones that you would consider the little Abner people, Daisy May and that sort of thing. They took that kind of thing from people like us. But little robes, people with a lot of class. It was country class, but it was a great deal of class. Most of my people were not that educated, but they are very, very intelligent. Good common sense. Horse sense, we called it.

[B]

Now, one of the things that the essays do is follow that idea back in time. Of course, it didn't start with Dolly Parton. It actually goes back to about 80ish years before she was born. Late 1860s, let's say.

[E]

When America is rebuilding from the Civil War, there's a wave of industrialization that takes place in the United States.

[B]

This is historian Elizabeth Catt, who wrote the book what yout Are Getting Wrong About Appalachia.

[E]

The railroads are pushing further, further into the wilderness. They're being rebuilt. There's lots of people descending on Appalachia during this time.

[B]

Confederacy had been whooped. This whole swath of the. The country was now open for business. So you had all these Northerners flooding.

[E]

In, including a, you know, a generation of travel writers doing the turn of the century version of parachute journalism.

[H]

Strange and peculiar people, the natives of this region are characterized by marked peculiarities.

[B]

Of the anatomical frame.

[H]

The elongation of the bones, the contour.

[B]

Of the facial angle. In the 1840s through the 1890s, you had adventuring travel writers like Will Wallace Harney journeying into the mountains of, say, Kentucky, encountering subsistence farmers there, and then sending back these accounts. A like individuality appears in their idiom. The use of the indefinite substantive pronoun un is peculiar to the mountains. Have you uns seen any stray shoats? Critter means an animal.

[H]

They, of course, believe in the water.

[B]

Wizard and his forked wand. To say these stories were somewhere between wild exaggerations and outright lies is correct, but it sort of misses the point of what they were doing. They weren't trying to tell the truth, they were trying to sell stories. And not to the people of Appalachia, but the people back in New York, in D.C. in Philadelphia, and the whole idea that there might be, tucked away in the Appalachian hills, this lost race of white natives who had nothing to do with the Civil War, were completely untouched by the bloody Chaos of that war, however untrue, that was a pretty grabby story. And so, needless to say, readers back east were fascinated.

[C]

Mainstream Americans, that is white Protestant Americans, were fascinated with hillbillies from the start.

[D]

Some of America's first silent movies featured hillbillies like the moonshiner, 1904 the moonshiners. Hillbillies feud and drink and live in poverty. This was Appalachia's introduction to the national stage.

[B]

So travel writing led to Hollywood churning out all of these hillbilly silent films, which led to people of the north wanting to own as many Appalachian crafts as they could get their hands on, which in turn led to entire schools within Appalachia sprouting up, where they taught.

[J]

People to produce certain products that they sold up north and so forth.

[B]

This is Wilma Duniway, professor emerita Virginia Tech. She's written numerous books revising our generally wrong histories of the Appalachian South.

[J]

They'd find women who quilted, but then come in and say to these women, and you need to quilt this pattern or make this basket that's popular someplace else. Those sorts of things.

[B]

Basically. Very early on, she says, many Appalachians took control of the myth, took this thing that had been given to them from the outside and started selling it back to the outsiders. And then she told us something that really spun my head around. She said, if you really want to know when this dumb hillbilly myth took flight, you gotta look at liberal arts colleges, of all things, settlement schools. She says around this time, as part of this wave of people coming in, you had very progressive institutions, colleges coming in with the idea that we want to educate this rural population, educate women.

[J]

These places all depended on external charity. There were a number of small schools, small colleges that came into being in that very time period. And they all had the same problem. They had to raise money from outside the region.

[B]

There just wasn't enough money inside the region for the work that they wanted to do. And so she says, at a certain point, they realized that the story that the travel writers were telling that Hollywood was making into movies, well, they could use that.

[J]

So they, they constructed. The president of Berea College was the first to start this in order to justify fundraising from places like New York City. You know, these are, these are the barbarians in our country. You have to save from themselves sort of rhetoric. They can't help what they are. They are trapped here.

[B]

This was their fundraising tactic.

[J]

Uh huh.

[B]

Like let's belittle the people we're trying to help in order to get outside money. So that we can help them?

[J]

Oh, absolutely.

[E]

Indeed.

[B]

And she says it worked. New York money started rolling in. All these other schools in Appalachia started copying the same move, broadcasting to the outside this idea that their students were barbarians.

[J]

It sounds like something that belongs in a funny page, doesn't it?

[B]

Kind of, yeah.

[J]

Yes, it does.

[B]

So then, if the land is so rich, why were the people so poor?

[J]

Because the money went elsewhere. You can ask the same question about why Third World countries have been so poor for so long. If the wealth doesn't stay in that particular country, in that particular region and be used for economic development there, then those regions of the world are going to stay less developed and more poor. You're in New York City, right? You're in New York City. You know where your electricity comes from? Mountaintop removal in West Virginia. That's where part of your electricity comes from.

[B]

Wow.

[J]

So we continue this mess. It doesn't end because we're in the 21st century. We just find new ways to rip off and damage.

[B]

As she was saying this, I was sitting in front of the computer that was recording the interview, watching her words become little waveforms on the screen, Little jagged red mountains of electricity powered by the tops being blown off of faraway real mountains. What Wilmot was referring to is maybe the most dramatic example of the nasty utility of the hillbilly stereotype. The thing we all already know about the Appalachian south is that it is coal country. Clean, beautiful, West Virginia coal.

[I]

We love it.

[J]

Miners went down in those mines and put their lives at risk to power this great nation.

[B]

What happened is that those mining companies came in again from the Northeast, truly believing the stories that they were hearing from places like Berea College and from Hollywood and from the travel writers, that these people needed them, that they were too lazy, too listless, too backwards to be able to help themselves.

[E]

Absolutely.

[B]

So they came in, set up labor camps.

[E]

The coal miner was paid in currency that was invented by the coal company. It was called scrip. So they were not being paid in real wages. They were being paid in an internal currency that could only be used in that specific coal camp.

[B]

And anytime the miners tried to organize, which was often, those efforts were put.

[E]

Down, often by force.

[B]

And then the story that got told at the other end of it was always smushed back into that hillbilly thing.

[E]

So, for example, Cat told us about.

[B]

This one moment, the Battle of Blair.

[E]

Mountain, 1921, where you had somewhere between.

[B]

10 and 20,000 miners marching up this mountain in West Virginia for the right to unionize in military formations carrying rifles. The National Guard was called in on.

[E]

The side of the coal company.

[B]

And during a seven day battle, planes literally dropped bombs on the miners heads.

[E]

It was the largest uprising since the Civil War and one of the most significant labor uprisings in American history.

[B]

And the kicker is that the people marching that day wore red bandanas around their necks and they were known as rednecks. That term has a long history, but one of the things it meant in that context at that time was people organizing.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, that's amazing to me. I thought it was just like I.

[A]

Thought it was about sunburn.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[E]

Do you know the origins of the word hillbilly?

[B]

No.

[E]

So I won't take up too much of your time, but it is kind of interesting. One iteration of this story is that hillbilly was a specific term deployed against people who were from East Tennessee right after the Civil War, when individuals were trying to form what historians would probably call fusionist governments. So governments where African Americans and white individuals had equal political power. And so the word hillbilly was a degrading term for white people who politically organized with African Americans.

[B]

Really?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

So there you have it. Two terms that refer to people fighting for rights becoming terms used to shame those same people.

[F]

Okay, so kind of what I meant.

[E]

By that is that like, you know.

[B]

America already kind of like you said, does, like this is the kind of thing that the students got into in their essays, that the shame they feel about their accents is rooted in these stereotypes that were foisted on them for the last hundred years, beginning with those early silent movies, then going up through movies like Deliverance, which traumatized me as a child, I'll tell you that. And then up through the present day. And the natural question that came up was, how does Dolly fit into this?

[C]

So how much of the blame do we lay on her?

[B]

Is she a part of this history, a continuation of it, or counteracting it in some way? This is where the students really disagreed.

[I]

She's making money off of it. So I think she is to blame. She's not the creator of this, but she is profiting off of this practice.

[B]

Some students pointed to all those stories she tells about growing up in the mountains, all the songs she sings.

[F]

By her using like Appalachian stereotypes. She's legitimizing them in like the eyes of the public because, like, she's such a big deal. Like, I mean, Dolly's global. The Appalachian stereotypes are now global, even though, like, they've been around for a really long time. Like, I Mean, having someone come in and be a big deal and using them.

[B]

One student, Hannah, felt like her leaning so hard into those backwoods Barbie stereotypes, given the history of how those stereotypes were used. Plus, they're at least in the same neighborhood as the coal companies, 100%.

[E]

Dali is an extractive capitalist.

[B]

This is something I also heard from Elizabeth Catt.

[E]

But what Dolly extracts are ideas and not minerals, really. I mean, if you think about it, you know, you went to Dollywood. All of the theme park rides are, you know, they represent sort of capitalism, extractive capitalism at a. Its worst. You have coal mine rides, timber rides. They're exciting now. They're not dangerous. They're not. No one is being exploited.

[B]

They're also, I must say, incredibly fun.

[F]

Mommy, I'm riding again.

[B]

And Elizabeth says, maybe that's Dolly's real contribution.

[E]

Appalachia is a hard place, and Dolly makes it less hard.

[F]

No, I disagree because, like.

[B]

But Hannah was like, can't she tell other stories?

[F]

And so it just seemed to me like it was just. She was a huge representative of the south, and it was. I mean, it wasn't even just necessarily her, but so much as, like, I associated her so much of where, like, with the south that. Because she just represented that to me, I hated her for that.

[B]

Anyone have the exact opposite reaction? Okay, Lainey, you're raising your hand.

[D]

Yeah, Dolly. I was laughing, listening to you, because it was, like, a lot of the same elements, but they, like, read totally different for me. So as, like, a young girl growing up in, like, the evangelical South, I felt like I was given a lot of binary choices so that there are two options ahead of me. I could be interesting, or I could be virtuous. Right? Or I could be, you know, like, I could be.

[G]

There's still time waiting.

[D]

Well, they're all different things. We were having to choose between two things all the time. And I was watching her just say, like, forget that. Like, I'm gonna be both. I'm gonna be both things. I'm gonna be adored by church ladies and the gays. And it's, like, such a wild concept that I still can't wrap my mind around how exactly she does it. But I think it was really important to me to have a role model who was unapologetically where she was from. And also, like, she was not apologizically for where she was going either.

[B]

At that point, a student named Polly jumped in for me.

[E]

Dolly has always been sort of a validation of the Appalachian identity, if that makes sense. Because to see A woman be so ambitious and so unapologetically Appalachian. It just. And see her rise to such heights, it just made it feel better to be Appalachian, if that makes sense. Even if she's showing a very nice, pretty version of Appalachia. I'll be honest, it's kind of nice to just see that version of Appalachia instead of this narrative of, we are victims, we are a bunch of poor crackheads or moonshiners living in the middle of the woods.

[B]

I think it goes back to sort of, like, this idea that Dolly's ours. Several students, Cole Mallory, said, at least she's not coming in from the outside. The idea is like, yeah, is, you know, she's one of us.

[E]

She's constantly. She's reiterating the fact that she is an Appalachian, that she's from this Southern heritage.

[B]

Their sense was, if she's selling stereotypes, it's ultimately to help the people who are being stereotyped.

[E]

First of all, a big thing about Dollywood is that she employs, like, all these people. And then also her book drive.

[B]

Yeah. This led to a long discussion about philanthropy. The way that Dolly provides books to kids that wouldn't otherwise have books. The way she funds scholarships to her home high school and has cut the dropout rate in half.

[I]

And with the fires, she did a lot of donations to, like, the way.

[B]

That in 2016, after the Gatlinburg fires, she raised $12 million to help people of the area rebuild their homes.

[C]

I think she's, like, taking with one hand and giving with the other. Yeah, she's taking away our dignity, but at the same time, she's giving, like, books and charity and stuff.

[B]

Some students agreed. Others were like, come on.

[I]

I don't think she's exploiting the region or the people. I think she's actually doing a lot of good for the people in the region economically, through donations and charity. But she's exploiting the history of Appalachia.

[C]

If Dolly exploited the history but helps the people, that why are people like Hannah still being, like, bullied for having a Southern accent? Like, if Dolly was helping the people, wouldn't she be, like, trying to legitimize the image of people from the south and giving them the ability to be respected?

[B]

Well, hold up. But Polly said the exact opposite, though. She was like, I felt better about being me. This went on for about an hour with some students arguing. She really should be doing more, pushing narratives that show people on the outside that we're not what you think we are, with some students arguing back. But she's already doing that, at least for me.

[G]

How would you guys feel about this? So a number of buildings on campus are named for the Haslams. You know, you give X dollars, you get a building or a school. So the business school is named after Haslam. What if the College of Arts and Sciences was named the Dolly Parton College of Arts and Sciences? How would you feel about that if that's where you were attending?

[F]

I would hate that so much.

[I]

I wouldn't really think about it. I barely.

[E]

I feel like I wouldn't take it as seriously.

[F]

I wouldn't have taken it as seriously at all.

[D]

Well, like, even though we talk about how, like, what a big success she is. Yeah, she's like the most successful artist from this.

[B]

Maybe you don't want to take her.

[D]

Advice on how to do arts and science.

[B]

Wow. I've never heard so many different answers all at once. I told Dolly about this whole conversation, so you're. She thought it was hilarious that there would even be a class that studies her where a conversation like this could happen. And she said in many ways, she is on the side of people wary of exporting bad stereotypes.

[H]

I really don't. I hate it with all my heart when they do stereotype country people in the. In Hollywood, how they portray us. Just a bunch of corn pounds and just, you know, illiterate, even though we are. A lot of us can't read and write. But there's a gentleness and a warmth and a. And a realness and an innocence and, you know, a thing about just pure country people that's sacred. See, Gotta remember I'm an older person. They're young people, and I tell my stories as I feel them and know them and see them. So I'm not ashamed of anything that we were. I'm not trying to keep us hillbillies. Just like when Barbara Walters said about being hillbillies. I take pride in that now that I'm older, when somebody say we can call ourselves hillbillies, but you better know what you're saying if you're going to call us hillbillies. To me, that's an endearing term.

[B]

But what do you say to the idea that the south is changing? And there are these older ideas of the south that hurt these kids. They feel hurt by them. A lot of them told us they'd been bullied about their accents. I'm wondering if you feel. If you ever feel like, worried that somehow that we need to counter those ideas out there, the way that the south is seen from the outside.

[H]

Well, I'm proud to be from the South. I'm proud of my accent. And that kind of goes back to thine own self be true thing. I would rather people have to listen a little close, a little closer than they might normally to try to figure out what I've said than to try to fake it and say it in a way that is not real for me. But I think you should take pride in who you are. But then again, I never was in college. I never was in a. In a place to where I started in country music. And country people were country people, they talked country. Nashville people were, you know, they were singing. And I just never once thought about changing my accent. Now, I could, if I did a movie or something, I mean, I could talk like someone from somewhere else, but it would just seem so silly, wouldn't it? It's like, my God, are you a doctor? Is that Dolly? I don't think so. Anyhow, I just don't get that when people have to change their accent to please somebody else.

[B]

Yeah.

[H]

But if you feel it's right for you, that's fine, too. Choices, choices. We have choices.

[B]

I want to give a very special thanks to the students at UT Knoxville.

[D]

Does everyone have a favorite Dolly song?

[F]

92 5. Yeah, I dig 9 to 5.

[B]

I love Donald Bond. It's so good. Yeah.

[D]

Also, Hard Candy Christmas is great. Yeah. Also I listen to Hard Candy Christmas, like 12 months at.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Not all of them.

[B]

They are Lainey Goodwin, Molly Gwyn, Hannah Nolan, Justin Wood, Will Oakes, Mallory Donahue, Kate Kelly, Garrett Woods, Polly Taylor Cole, Coletta Tipton. Also, a huge, huge thanks to Professor Lynn Sacco for being so generous with her class, with her time being such a guide for us during the process, and for allowing us to use the name on our series. Dolly Parton's America was produced, written and edited by me and Shima Oliay, brought to you by awesome Audio in WNYC Studios. We had production help from W. Harry Fortuna, who also lent his voice to this episode, along with George Olesky. Thank you to our bluegrass trio, Steph Jenkins, Stephanie Coleman, and Courtney Hartman, and also to the folks at Sony Music and to David Dodson, Lulu Miller, Susie Lechtenberg, Soren Wheeler, and Sam Shahi. A reminder, we have a companion playlist that we've partnered with Apple Music to make that we're updating each week with songs from the episodes as well as some of our favorites. You can find [e-mail] you'll hear from us again in two weeks. On the next episode of Dolly Parton's America.

[G]

Dolly.

[B]

Is this singular figure in American culture who can pull off contradictions that nobody else could, could ever pull off. I was curious about the backlash.

[D]

It probably has the most backlash I've had for a piece since I wrote about Santa Claus.

[B]

Because when people are paying money to.

[E]

Have a tourist experience, they want it to be a joyful, happy experience, right?

[B]

And slavery is not something that's joyful.

[E]

Protesters voice their concerns outside what is now called Dolly Parton's Stampede. Saying the word Dixie is a piece of history.

[G]

Is this the place where finally Dolly met her match?

[B]

In the next episode, we'll look at the kerfuffle surrounding a word on a sign that raised some pretty big questions about race, history and how things are remembered. And there will be racing pigs. That's on the next Dolly Parton's America. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply. NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.