The Only One For Me, Jolene

Summary

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Dolly Parton's America

Episode 6: "The Only One For Me, Jolene"

Release Date: November 19, 2019
Host: Jad Abumrad
Producer: Shima Oliaee

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Episode Overview

This episode explores why Dolly Parton’s song "Jolene" resonates so deeply across divides, delving into its emotional complexity and unique appeal. Host Jad Abumrad and producer Shima Oliaee embark on a cultural, musical, and personal analysis of the song—focusing especially on its status as a "third space" where multiple interpretations, experiences, and identities meet. Along the way, they interview country music scholars, queer musicians, and even take a new "fourth verse" to Dolly Parton herself, reflecting on the song’s layers of meaning and its unexpected impact around the world.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Dollyverse: Who Comes to Dolly? (01:46)

• Dolly Parton's concerts bring together an incredibly diverse audience—"cowboy hats and boots, people in drag, church ladies, lesbians, little girls" (02:11).
• Jad describes Dolly’s shows as an “alternate reality” where unlikely groups stand “side by side...singing the same song” (02:19).
• Central question: How does Dolly create such inclusive spaces? And how much does the audience bring to that openness? (02:38)

2. Country Music, Representation, and Jolene’s Place in the Genre (03:11)

• Nadine Hubbs, a professor and musicologist, provides context on country music’s history—its "hillbilly music" roots, borrowed cowboy iconography, and shifting identity (03:26–03:59).
• Dolly's subversion of the “other woman” trope is introduced as a particularly unique aspect of "Jolene" (05:45).
• Hubbs points out that, unlike other “other woman” songs (e.g., Loretta Lynn’s “Fist City”), Dolly doesn't issue threats or insults but instead pleads and compliments Jolene (08:39).

3. Musical Analysis of "Jolene" (09:09)

• Hubbs highlights the song’s hypnotic guitar riff and notes it is written in Dorian mode, giving it an ancient, haunting feeling (09:24–10:18).
• Quote: “Instead of the normal minor scale, with Dorian mode you have...that little extra raising of the sixth note. It gives it a whole different vibe.” – Nadine Hubbs (10:16)

4. Lyrical Subversion and Homoerotic Readings (11:23)

• Dolly repeatedly addresses Jolene directly and admiringly:
  • “Your beauty is beyond compare with flaming locks of auburn hair...” (11:50)
  • Instead of vilifying, she flatters Jolene, creating an aura of fixation and unresolved tension.
• Hubbs imagines the singer and Jolene growing closer or “a three-way” (13:42), interpreting the lyrics as carrying homoerotic subtext.
• “Dolly has in this song a really novel, revolutionary approach to the other woman.” – Nadine Hubbs (14:21)

5. Writing a Fourth Verse: Embracing Hidden Desire (15:07)

• Hubbs writes and performs a fourth verse for "Jolene" where the narrator’s longing is openly for Jolene, not just the man.
  • “I'm glad I had that talk with you...Now you're the only one for me, Jolene.” (15:07–16:20)
• The hosts love it and send this new verse to Dolly herself.

6. Dolly's Response: Origins and Original Intent (20:25)

• Dolly hears the "queer" verse and laughs: “That’s another take on it...So she’s thinking the two women get together!” (20:41)
• Dolly shares the true origin: named after a little girl she met at a concert, inspired by playful jealousy over her husband’s bank teller crush—not written with homoerotic intent.
  • “You’re overthinking it. I just wrote it. It was just a natural feeling.” – Dolly Parton (21:24)
• Yet, she acknowledges that alternative interpretations are fun and totally valid.

7. The Third Space: Songs as Open Interpretation (24:30)

• Jad discusses the psychological concept of the "third": a relationship space created between two people, larger than its parts.
  • He suggests "Jolene" exists as a “musical version of a third space”—a container for diverse emotions, projections, and meanings (24:52).
• Dolly’s music often creates these open, interpretable spaces.

8. Queer Country: Justin Hiltner’s Story (25:40)

• Banjo player Justin Hiltner, the first openly gay man nominated for an International Bluegrass Music Association award (26:01), describes Dolly’s music as "choose your own adventure."
  • “She’s creating a choose your own adventure kind of musical experience.” – Justin Hiltner (26:43)
• He links Dolly’s “Wildflowers” and “Silver Dagger” to his coming-out experience in a conservative family, using music to survive and hope (27:17–31:38).
• Dolly's radical acceptance:
  • “If you can’t deal with it, I can’t deal with you not dealing with it...He made us all. And if we’re different, well, that’s fine. We’re still his.” – Dolly Parton (31:38)

9. A Universal Song: Jolene on Robben Island (33:44)

• Tokyo Sexwale, South African anti-apartheid activist and Mandela cellmate, recalls how Mandela played Dolly Parton’s music—including "Jolene"—over the prison loudspeakers (34:32–34:55).
  • “No human being cannot be affected by Jolene.” – Tokyo Sexwale (35:33)
• The song resonated with both jailers and jailed, each identifying with the loss and longing in the lyrics for their own reasons.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Jolene’s Lyrical Power:
  • “She repeats [Jolene’s] name again and again as if she’s fixated...She starts her lyric, I’m begging.” – Nadine Hubbs (11:23)
• On Song Subversion:
  • “Instead of hating this woman... she’s exalting her for all the reasons she’s able to take her man.” – Shima Oliaee (14:21)
• Dolly on Alternate Readings:
  • “Well, that would be, I guess if you were a lesbian, you might think that—but I was not thinking that at all when I wrote it. But that’s fun.” – Dolly Parton (21:46)
• World Impact:
  • “He [Mandela] loved Jolene…The Western Dolly. Dolly sang from the heart.” – Tokyo Sexwale (34:48)
• Embrace of Radical Difference:
  • “We are who we are. If you can’t deal with it, I can’t deal with you not dealing with it.” – Dolly Parton (31:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Diverse Audiences at Dolly’s Shows: 02:00–02:38
• Discussion of "Other Woman" Country Songs: 06:12–08:39
• Musical Analysis of "Jolene": 09:09–10:18
• Homoerotic Interpretation and Fourth Verse: 13:54–15:07
• Dolly’s Reaction to the Fourth Verse: 20:25–21:51
• "Third Space" Concept and Song Universality: 24:24–25:02
• Justin Hiltner’s Queer Country Story: 25:40–31:38
• "Jolene" at Robben Island Prison: 33:44–36:02

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Episode Tone & Style

The tone is thoughtful, curious, and gently playful, mixing deep academic insights with personal narratives and Dolly’s own warmth and humor. The hosts blend analysis with storytelling, inviting listeners to embrace the ambiguity and openness in Dolly Parton’s work—her music as a vessel for countless, often-contradictory meanings.

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Summary

In exploring "Jolene," this episode unravels how Dolly Parton’s music, and this song in particular, offers a remarkable sense of belonging and meaning to listeners from every walk of life. Whether as a tale of jealousy, longing, admiration, or liberation—whether sung in Appalachian living rooms, at drag shows, or in apartheid-era prisons—"Jolene" proves itself a true American folk song, a “third space” capable of making radically different listeners feel seen, heard, and united.

Transcript

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[Jad Abumrad]

Are you ready to do this?

[Shima Oliai]

I'm ready.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, let's do it.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yes.

[Shima Oliai]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so I'm gonna introduce the thing, and then I'm gonna hand off to you. Is that's all right?

[Shima Oliai]

Oh, you're actually using the. I'm ready.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Oh, I don't know. We gotta keep it loose, yo.

[Shima Oliai]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Okay.

[Shima Oliai]

I am breathing. Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. I'm Jad Abu Murad. This is Dolly Parton's America.

[Shima Oliai]

I'm Shima Oliay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Shima is producing the project with me. And this is episode six, six Journey. Let's start this one by jumping back for a second to the beginning, to the thing that first grabbed us about Dolly.

[Dolly Parton]

Here you come again.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is that when you talk to people about going to a Dolly Parton show, they often describe it as like an alternate reality.

[Shima Oliai]

It was the most diverse place I've ever been.

[Michaels Store Announcer]

You have people wearing cowboy hats and.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Boots, people in drag, church ladies, lesbians.

[Shima Oliai]

Are you holding hands? Little girls?

[Jad Abumrad]

It was always this picture of all of these different slices of America jammed together groups of people that we think shouldn't get along. But there they are, standing side by side, polite Singing the same song. And really, this series has been driven in part by the simple question, how does she do that?

[Shima Oliai]

You know, Judd, the question I wonder is, how much is she bringing versus how much is the audience bringing?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Shima Oliai]

To make this magical space.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Shima Oliai]

This question really got lodged in our head when we spoke to this woman who gave us a different take on. Yeah, yo, she's getting her headphones on. How to listen to Dolly's music.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Cool. Okay, so here's melodica.

[Dolly Parton]

I love it.

[Shima Oliai]

Her name is Nadine Hubbs, in addition to playing guitar and the melodica, both of which she brought into the studio the day we interviewed, she is a professor at the University of Michigan, and she thinks studies, writes a lot about country music.

[Nadine Hubbs]

In the early history of country music, in the early days she told us about, it was called hillbilly music.

[Shima Oliai]

The look of country music.

[Nadine Hubbs]

If you were a country artist, you might have to go on stage and dress up like a hayseed.

[Jad Abumrad]

What's a hayseed?

[Nadine Hubbs]

So you would put on some bib overalls. You'd put a straw in your mouth.

[Shima Oliai]

We talked about where the cowboy uniform came from.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, so the cowboy, like, cowboy boots, cowboy hat, cowboy thing. The whole cowboy look is of Mexican descent?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yeah. Wow. And it's been in development for 500 years.

[Jad Abumrad]

No way.

[Shima Oliai]

We talked about Lil Nas X, whereas.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Blanco Brown's Blanco Brown.

[Shima Oliai]

Whole bunch of things. But the real reason we wanted to talk to Nadine.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, can we talk about Jolene?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yes.

[Shima Oliai]

Is to talk about a song you know.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yes.

[Shima Oliai]

Or at least think you know.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, can I just ask, when did you first personally bump into Dolly?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Well, I grew up in what we now know as the Rust Bell in Ohio, around Toledo, Ohio.

[Shima Oliai]

Dad was a blue collar worker.

[Nadine Hubbs]

He worked on freight trains.

[Shima Oliai]

Mom stayed at home.

[Nadine Hubbs]

And my mom was a huge fan. And I have to tell you, I have a little sister, and her name is Jolene.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, after the song.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yeah. I grew up with that song.

[Shima Oliai]

Nadine told us that pretty much every week she and her family would gather together, living room, and watch Hee Haw.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Or the Porter Wagner Show.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thank you.

[Shima Oliai]

And every week on the tv, there'd be this curvy, smiling, super blonde bombshell.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Of a woman with huge hair, covered in sequins like a beacon of excess, as we used to say out in the country. I didn't know whether to or go blind, but I was a budding musician.

[Shima Oliai]

And so for Nadine, the thing that actually drew her to Dolly was.

[Nadine Hubbs]

That gorgeous voice. And, you know, everyone had to hush when she came on screen or on the radio.

[Shima Oliai]

Fast forward. Nadine's at the University of Michigan writing about country music, and she finds herself again and again coming back to Jolene.

[Nadine Hubbs]

I mean, this is such a brilliant reimagining of a genre. It's revelatory.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's a badass song too, I gotta say. Like, in the entire genre of Dali's work, this is one that's gonna be sung for hundreds of years.

[Shima Oliai]

I gotta say, though, like, once I read your stuff, I was like, I love this song on a whole nother. Go ahead, go ahead, tell us.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, where do we begin?

[Nadine Hubbs]

So what really struck me about Jolene is that I knew a bunch of other woman songs in country music.

[Shima Oliai]

What is another woman song?

[Nadine Hubbs]

So I would understand the other woman song in country music as a sub genre of the cheating song, a genre that we're all familiar with in country.

[Shima Oliai]

So a cheating song, it goes way back.

[Nadine Hubbs]

You cheatin.

[Shima Oliai]

It's you. Usually sung by a man who's brokenhearted and is lamenting the lady lover who's cheated on him. There are literally thousands of these songs. If you think about music itself as the multiverse, country music being one universe, there's a galaxy called the church cheating song. And if you go into that galaxy, there's a solar system filled with songs by women who are singing not toward their man, but toward the woman who's about to take their man.

[Nadine Hubbs]

That is the other woman's song. And when female country artists sing about the other woman or to the other woman, the song gets kind of nasty.

[Shima Oliai]

I wonder why.

[Nadine Hubbs]

So when Loretta Lynn does another woman song, you think of you ain't woman enough to take my man. Or you think of Fist City. That was a number, number one hit for Loretta Lynn in. In 1968. And that's back in the days when apparently she did have a cheating husband. And one of the. One of the lyrics is, you better move your feet if you don't want.

[Dolly Parton]

To eat a meal.

[Nadine Hubbs]

That's Coffee City. And then you can think of more recent country songs like Carrie Underwood's number one hit in 2006 called before he Cheats. And you know, she's calling the other woman tramp, and she's probably getting first trash.

[Dolly Parton]

Where'd you meet that no good white trash hoe dang.

[Nadine Hubbs]

So these are the more typical other woman songs. Badass, angry. And having known the song Jolene practically my entire life, it struck me at some point, wow, look what Dolly is doing to the other woman song.

[Shima Oliai]

Honestly, one of the reasons we're talking to Nadine is that I read one of her papers where she goes through all these different aspects of the song. Jolene, let's start at the beginning, okay.

[Nadine Hubbs]

With that riff, that guitar riff that Dolly herself plays incredibly in long acrylic nails. Melodically, it keeps tracing this little, like, circular path as if she's pacing the floor. Floor or something.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's like recursive loops going over and over.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yes, it's hypnotic.

[Shima Oliai]

Nadine points out that melody. The whole song, actually, the song is.

[Nadine Hubbs]

In minor, but it's not quite regular minor. It is Dorian mode, which we're getting kind of technical and musicological here, but let's do it. Let's do it. Instead of the normal minor scale, which would be this, with Dorian mode, you have.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is it just one note that's different in this?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yes.

[Shima Oliai]

It's subtle, but it's the sixth note in the scale, as opposed to. You get this, that little extra raising of the sixth note.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, it's funny. It just gives it a whole different vibe.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Exactly. Dorian mode sounds more ancient, almost primitive, because, like, in Western music, we used Dorian back in the Gregorian chant phase of history.

[Shima Oliai]

And so with this riff repeating again and again in this mode, suddenly it's like this woman pacing the floor or something.

[Nadine Hubbs]

She's not sure what to do, and.

[Shima Oliai]

You immediately feel like she's been pacing for a really long time.

[Dolly Parton]

And then Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene.

[Nadine Hubbs]

And unlike Loretta Lynn or Carrie Underwood or any number of other singers, she addresses the other woman by her name. No word features nearly as much in this song as the name, which she repeats again and again as if she's fixated. And she starts her lyric, I'm begging.

[Dolly Parton]

Of you, Please don't take my man.

[Nadine Hubbs]

With a plea. She begs her, she pleads with her, please don't take my man. That's really different from you better close.

[Dolly Parton]

Your face and stay out of my.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Way if you don't want to go to this city. Yeah.

[Shima Oliai]

Nadine points out that right after that.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Right after that plea in her first.

[Dolly Parton]

Verse, your beauty is beyond compare with flaming locks of auburn hair, with ivory skin and eyes of emerald green.

[Nadine Hubbs]

She sings rhapsodically.

[Dolly Parton]

Your smile is like a breath of spring. Your voice is soft like summer rain. And I cannot compete with you.

[Nadine Hubbs]

About Jolene's hair and skin, eyes and smile and voice about how beautiful and desirable she is. You know, she seems a little bit dazed.

[Dolly Parton]

He talks about you in his sleep and there's nothing I can do to keep from Crying.

[Shima Oliai]

Skipping forward to the final verse, the song has three verses.

[Nadine Hubbs]

She goes to describing her own vulnerability.

[Dolly Parton]

I had to have this talk with you My happiness depends on you and whatever you decide to do, Jolene does.

[Nadine Hubbs]

My happiness depends on you.

[Dolly Parton]

Jolene.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Jolene. The whole thing about Jolene, and one of the things that makes it so haunting is how it's left unresolved. My happiness depends on you and whatever you decide to do, Jolene is where she leaves off that verse. And then we get another chorus. And throughout the song, the husband is so off to the side. And so when she gives this list of everything she admires in Jolene and her beauty and says, I can easily understand how my man would want you, am I the only person then who imagines that her and Jolene getting together if this guy doesn't work out? Or even one more fourth verse that finds this love triangle dissolved into a three way. So I wrote about this song in terms of homoerotics.

[Shima Oliai]

What Nadine argues is that Dolly is taking this trope that is typically all about women hating on women. Instead, she's snuck in a song that is all about women loving other women. Instead of hating this woman or vilifying her for being able to take her man, she's exalting her for all the reasons that she's able to take her man.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Dolly has in this song a really novel, revolutionary approach to the other woman.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you think other people hear the song this way, or is this.

[Nadine Hubbs]

I don't imagine I'm the. Well, look, when Dolly gives us this much to work with, I don't expect that I'm the only person who has felt this song this way.

[Jad Abumrad]

You mentioned that you imagine a fourth verse where they get together. They have a three way. Have you ever thought about writing the verse?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Oh, that's a.

[Shima Oliai]

You should do it for us.

[Jad Abumrad]

Someone should do that.

[Shima Oliai]

A couple weeks later, she sent us an email saying, I have something for you.

[Nadine Hubbs]

You know, for this now, I need my little guitar, and I haven't played in a little while, so we may need more than one take. But this comes from, you know, out of the first three verses, and you know how those go. And the third verse is, you could have your choice of men, blah, blah, blah. So I had to have this talk with you. My happiness depends on you and whatever you decide to do, Jolene. Then there's the chorus. And then my fourth verse would go, Let me get this in a little closer. I'm glad I had that talk with you. Glad we met in person to that place you took me to was quite a scene? It's true that my men found you first but you awakened such a thirst? Now you're the only one for me? Jolene, Go ahead. Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene Begging of you Please don't take my.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, I love that verse. It's so, so good.

[Nadine Hubbs]

You like the verse?

[Jad Abumrad]

It's actually, like, really, really great.

[Justin Hiltner]

I was like, dolly could.

[Jad Abumrad]

I could hear Dolly doing that. Oh, my God. What if we show this to Dolly?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Well, if you guys would send it to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

Good.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Coming up, we do just that. We play it for Dolly and she tells us the interestingly layered story of how the song came into the world.

[Dolly Parton]

Oh, you'll know that I wrote that about you? You, you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolly Barnes. America will continue in a moment.

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[Shima Oliai]

Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I.

[Michaels Store Announcer]

Go for all kinds of things I love.

[Jad Abumrad]

And there it was, that hologram trading card.

[Shima Oliai]

One of the rarest, the last one I needed for my set. Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful. Millions of finds, each with a story.

[Nadine Hubbs]

EBay, things people love.

[Shima Oliai]

This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, Democratic politicians are on Mamdani. Donald Trump has threatened to punish New York if Mamdani becomes the mayor.

[Jad Abumrad]

I think that will be an inevitability. We have to treat it as such. This is an administration that looks at the flourishing of city life, wherever it.

[Shima Oliai]

May be across this country as a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Threat to their entire political agenda.

[Shima Oliai]

So Ron Mamdani joins me next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's Dalek Barnes America. I'm Jad Abumrad here with Shima Oliai.

[Shima Oliai]

Hello.

[Jad Abumrad]

Before the break, Nadine Hubbs offered us this new take on Jolene. That it's really a homoerotic love story dressed up as an other Woman cheating song. Like, maybe Dolly was trying to sneak one in under the sensors, so to speak.

[Shima Oliai]

And certainly in many of Dolly's concerts, she will replace the word Jolene with.

[Jad Abumrad]

So she leans into it a little bit. Any case, Nadine wrote a fourth verse to Jolene, where Dolly and Jo, I guess, the narrator and Jolene consummate their love.

[Shima Oliai]

And she humbly requested, well, if you.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Guys would send it to her.

[Shima Oliai]

And we thought, yeah, we wondered, too, what would Dolly think of it? And so, okay, we flew it to Nashville.

[Jad Abumrad]

So I want. One of our episodes is going to be about Jolene.

[Dolly Parton]

Are we doing pictures first or do we doing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, are you gonna take a picture?

[Dolly Parton]

Are we ready to do.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, dad, can you. Can you take a couple of pictures the first few minutes?

[Dolly Parton]

Just keep going.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do it. Do it the sideways, too. Stop bothering me. No, no, just do it like this. Do it like that. That's better.

[Dolly Parton]

Not just the sides of our head.

[Justin Hiltner]

Yeah, okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

My dad was also there, but anyways, I. Can I play the verse she wrote?

[Nadine Hubbs]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Hiltner]

All right.

[Nadine Hubbs]

So curious to hear it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here it is.

[Nadine Hubbs]

I'm glad I had that talk with you. Glad we met in person, too. That place you took me to was quite a scene.

[Shima Oliai]

We played her the new verse, and she got the biggest smile on her face.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Now you're the only one for me, Jo. Jolie, Jolie, Jolie.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, is that.

[Shima Oliai]

That's essentially. Well, that's.

[Dolly Parton]

That's another take on it. That's another take. Well, so she's thinking the two women get together.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Dolly Parton]

And, well, they had thought about that when we were doing the Jolene movie, when we were writing the script.

[Shima Oliai]

This is a movie she made for Netflix about the song Jolene.

[Dolly Parton]

Someone came up with that basic idea to say, wouldn't it be cool if the two women just dumped him? Both of them dumped him, dumped the guy altogether, and went on with our lives as friends.

[Jad Abumrad]

So how should I put this to you? So, I mean, a lot of people love Jolene. Eventually, I fumbled my way into asking Dolly was anything like that in her mind as she wrote the song? I mean, could you see this song as a homoerotic subversion of the other woman cheating song?

[Dolly Parton]

I wasn't thinking. You're overthinking it. I wasn't. I just wrote it. It was just a natural feeling. It was just an emotion. And I was exc. About the little lick, and I was excited. You know, I thought it was a good song.

[Jad Abumrad]

But it's. Do you understand why, though? Cause it's like in the song, you're saying, jolene, you're so pretty. Your hair is so beautiful. Your eyes are so beautiful.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, that would be, I guess if you were a lesbian, you might think that. But I was not thinking that at all when I wrote it. But that's fun.

[Shima Oliai]

But then, as we kept talking, she told us, kind of with a wink, let me tell you how this song actually came to be.

[Dolly Parton]

I was. When I was with the Porter Wagner show, we used to stay after the show, sit out on stage, until every single autograph was signed from everybody in the audience. And sometimes that took two and three hours. And so there was this. I remember this one little girl came up and she said, would you sign my autograph? My name is Jolene. And I said, oh, that's a beautiful name. I said, I bet your dad's named Joe and you're named after your dad, right? She said, no, it's just Jolene. I said, well, I love that name. I said, I may write a song about that someday. And if you ever hear it, you'll know that I wrote that about you. So I was thinking. And I was going back to the bus. I was just trying to remember the name. I was going to write it down. So I was singing. I was saying it. So. Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene. Just so I'd remember the name. So all of a sudden, you know, that became. And I was going, jolene, Jolene, Jolene. Then I thought, well, what am I going to write about Jolene? You know what? I have to have a real commercial story to get played on the radio. You had to always consider all that.

[Shima Oliai]

So she's trying to figure out how to make this song commercial, how to fit it into the universe of radio that existed at that time. And then she thought about her husband and how he would frequent the bank and she would tease him about how it was most likely because he had a crush on one of the bank tellers.

[Dolly Parton]

And so. So I just kind of drew from, you know, that little fun thing, a little jealous thing. It is true that my husband got a crush on a girl at the bank, but that was not that big of a deal.

[Shima Oliai]

She says the bigger deal was that girl, the bank teller jealousy thing. That was just the commercial wrapping.

[Dolly Parton]

That's the true story of how Jolene came to be.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's interesting.

[Shima Oliai]

So what to make of this? I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, there's nothing overtly homoerotic going on here from Dolly's Perspective, at least. But on the other hand, you have these two very separate stories pushing up against each other. Neither idea directly takes on what Nadine is saying, but they do create a kind of negative space between them.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. You know what hits me about this? Like, there's a. There's a concept in psychology that. It's like one of my favorite ideas, which is.

[Dolly Parton]

It's.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's called the third. The idea that we like to think of ourselves as separate people who are doing things to other people and having things done to us. But this idea is that two people, separate entities, come together, and they actually form a new thing. The relationship is a new third space that is separate from either of them.

[Shima Oliai]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And it's a way of thinking about relationships as their own entities in a way. And maybe Jolene is like the musical version of a third space.

[Shima Oliai]

And you know what? It's not just Jolene.

[Dolly Parton]

Why'd you come in here looking like that? In your cowboy boots and your painted old jeans, all decked out like a cowboy?

[Justin Hiltner]

When I hear that song, it just makes me think of every single time I've fallen in love with a straight man. How dare you come in here looking like that despite the fact that you are unavailable to me with your painted on jeans.

[Shima Oliai]

Did you know that the south is home to more LGBTQ people than any other region in the country?

[Justin Hiltner]

Yes. 35%.

[Shima Oliai]

Oh, my God.

[Justin Hiltner]

Of queer people in this country are in the Southeast and in Appalachia.

[Shima Oliai]

Okay, wait. Before we get too far, can you tell me your name and your title when you're not being asked questions about the homoerotics of Dolly?

[Justin Hiltner]

Yes. My name is Justin Hiltner, and I'm a career banjo player, singer, songwriter.

[Shima Oliai]

You are the first gay man to ever be nominated for an International Bluegrass association award. Is that true?

[Justin Hiltner]

I clarify it by saying the first openly gay man, but yes. The first openly gay man to ever receive a nomination from the International Bluegrass Music association is yours truly.

[Shima Oliai]

Where are you right now?

[Justin Hiltner]

I live in a basement apartment in East Nashville.

[Shima Oliai]

So the way we bumped into Justin is that initially, when the podcast first came out, he was one of the first people who reached out to us to ask for an interview. He writes for a publication called the Bluegrass Situation, and we told him about how we were thinking about the song Jolene existing in this third space as you were sharing Jad.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep.

[Shima Oliai]

And he was like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not just Jolene. There are so many Dolly songs that are just like that.

[Justin Hiltner]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. It really speaks to that kind of quality of Dolly's writing. What she's creating is really a choose your own adventure kind of musical experience.

[Shima Oliai]

I love that metaphor of choose your own adventure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Choose your own adventure.

[Shima Oliai]

You control the action. That is kind of the entryway into all of her music, her thousands of songs.

[Justin Hiltner]

Right. And like my. My entry point, I'll do an Earl. Scrugg's tune was bluegrass.

[Shima Oliai]

Justin grew up in a small rural town in Ohio in a big family of musicians. He and all of his five siblings were homeschooled. His parents believed that every word of the Bible was true and they didn't want a lot of outside influence.

[Justin Hiltner]

I started coming out of the closet in 2009. I was 17.

[Shima Oliai]

And he says for him, that entire journey can be soundtracked to Dolly Parton. Alright, here's Silver Dagger, starting with this song.

[Justin Hiltner]

Don't sing love songs, you'll wake my mother she's sleeping sitting here right by my side in her right hand.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is.

[Justin Hiltner]

A silver dagger she says that I can't be your bind.

[Dolly Parton]

All miss or fools so says my mother they'll tell you again loving lives and then they'll go and call some other Leave you alone.

[Shima Oliai]

To pine inside so actually, this song, it seems like it has nothing to do with a gay man, but the lyrics describe a mother who is determined to keep her daughter pure. Every night she sleeps by her side and keeps a silver dagger in order to prevent her daughter from leaving the home.

[Justin Hiltner]

For Justin, it just reminds me of.

[Shima Oliai]

That time, he says he was learning that song at exactly the time he was trying to tell his family he was gay.

[Justin Hiltner]

It was really fraught. My conservative Christian evangelical family didn't really take it very well. We're on great terms now, but then it was really hard. And I was essentially on house arrest for about a year. I wasn't allowed to leave the house really for anything. I wasn't allowed to use the Internet without supervision. I wasn't allowed to have a cell phone. I wasn't allowed to get my driver's license.

[Shima Oliai]

So you too were under a silver dagger for a year?

[Justin Hiltner]

Yeah. It got to a point where I couldn't live life. And so a few days before his 18th birthday, I literally left town in the middle of the night without saying goodbye. My boyfriend at the time drove up from West Virginia, picked me up, took me back to West Virginia. I stayed with him for about a month. I went across the river to Ohio to get my driver's license and I drove to Nashville. And the first time I ever Drove on a highway with more than four lanes Was pulling into Nashville for the first time.

[Shima Oliai]

And the whole time he says wildflowers, he listened to Dolly's song Wildflowers.

[Justin Hiltner]

Well, the hills were alive with wild flowers and dyes was as wild, even wilder than they for at least I could run they just died in the sun and I refused just to wither in place Just a wild mountain rose needing freedom to grow so I ran fearing not where I'd go so I uprooted myself from my home ground and left Took my dreams and I took to the road. Wildflowers are weeds. They've adapted to grow wherever they can, however they can, up through the cracks of, of the pavement. And that's queerness. It's like, look, I'm gonna grow wherever I can, and if you aren't even just gonna give me water from the sky, I'm gonna have to go somewhere else.

[Dolly Parton]

God made us as we are who we are is who we are. Whether you're gay, whether you're straight, whether you're black, white, green, or alien gray, we are who we are. I would just bow out if I was not allowed to be me. I would just say, well, if you can't deal with it, I can't deal with you not dealing with it. And I hate those Christians that are so judgmental when there are so many. If you're just going to pick out certain words, certain things from the Bible and they forget about to judge not lest you be judged. And it's up to him to decide, you know, what's right or what's wrong. And he made us all. And if we're different, well, that's fine. We're still his.

[Shima Oliai]

Yeah. So on this point from Dolly, there's no Dalitics. It's very straightforward. She's very embracing of her LGBTQ fans. But her songs do maintain a kind of radical freedom of interpretation of open spaces.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, my sense of it is that, like, if you're. I don't know. I mean, this is just my hunch. If you're a woman writing songs in a male dominated industry, you've got to write songs that the male execs will like, you know, because she was talking about radio a little while ago. But at the same time, you have to layer those songs with things that.

[Shima Oliai]

Are about you, which makes you have to take on two.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

You have to sort of occupy two spaces at once.

[Shima Oliai]

You have to. She can't just do the one thing. I don't know what white men can do.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Yeah.

[Shima Oliai]

And My favorite. My favorite story on this idea actually came just moments before deadline this morning. This morning. It was this morning.

[Nadine Hubbs]

That's so good.

[Jad Abumrad]

Plus, we're cutting it on the song.

[Nadine Hubbs]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jad Abumrad]

Tell us about it.

[Shima Oliai]

Totally different context than the other stories. I hopped on the phone with this guy named Tokyo Seswale.

[Tokyo Seswale]

Hello?

[Shima Oliai]

This is Tokyo, right?

[Tokyo Seswale]

Hello there. I can hear you very well.

[Justin Hiltner]

Hello there.

[Shima Oliai]

Oh, lovely.

[Justin Hiltner]

That's great.

[Tokyo Seswale]

Where are you calling from?

[Shima Oliai]

I'm calling from New York.

[Tokyo Seswale]

From New York?

[Shima Oliai]

Yeah. Where are you exactly?

[Tokyo Seswale]

I'm in Johannesburg.

[Shima Oliai]

He was a freedom fighter in South Africa during the apartheid regime.

[Tokyo Seswale]

I went underground to join the freedom forces to eliminate apartheid.

[Shima Oliai]

Apartheid was the system of racial segregation in South Africa. Tokyo joins the Armed Resistance Movement. He gets caught. Sent to Robben island, which is a prison. Finds himself in the cell directly next to Nelson Mandela, who is the leader of the entire resistance movement. He told me how they were tortured, how they were beaten.

[Tokyo Seswale]

But eventually, after many, many years, he.

[Shima Oliai]

Said that at a certain point, the guards allowed Mandela to play music over the loudspeakers for the entire prison. And when I asked whose songs he'd play, he said Dolly.

[Tokyo Seswale]

Dolly Parton.

[Shima Oliai]

Dolly Parton.

[Tokyo Seswale]

Absolutely. Not only Nelson Mandela, all of us. The Western Dolly. Dolly sang from the heart.

[Shima Oliai]

Do you remember which Dolly songs were played? Do you remember when?

[Tokyo Seswale]

I remember which.

[Shima Oliai]

Yeah. Do you remember one of the Dolly songs that you heard Nelson Mandela play?

[Tokyo Seswale]

He loves Jolene.

[Shima Oliai]

Oh, wow.

[Tokyo Seswale]

He loved Jolene.

[Shima Oliai]

I just think about a night at Robin island in the dark when Jolene is playing over the loudspeakers. The prisoners hear it in their cells on the other side of the wall. The guards are listening, too, and both groups of people are having the same experience.

[Tokyo Seswale]

No human being cannot be affected by Jolene.

[Shima Oliai]

According to Tokyo, this song is not about love, like Nadine would say, it's about fear of someone taking your man, of losing everything. The prisoners feel that because they've lost their freedom, and the guards feel that because their country's changing and they can sense they're about to lose power. Both are feeling the same fear, but for very different reasons.

[Tokyo Seswale]

We are all human beings, the jail and the jailer, but we all come from one country. But we all don't want to lose. Whether it's your man or your country, nobody wants to get hurt. Don't hurt me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Producer Shima Oleai Dolly Parton's America was written, produced and edited by me and Shima, brought to you by Austin Audio. That's OSM Audio and WNYC Studios. We had production help from W. Harry Fortuna and Matthew Kielty the Great. Some of the music you heard played was performed by Nadine Hubbs and Justin Hiltner. Thanks again to the folks at Sony, Lynn Sacco, Wayne Bledsoe, Tasha Lemle, David Dotson, Pat Walters, Lulu Miller, Susie Lechterberg and Soren Wheeler. We've partnered with Apple Music to bring you a companion playlist. It's updated every week. You can find [e-mail] and speaking of which, we've gotten a lot of requests for the full version of the Jolene remix that I created for scoring that we used a little bit of in episode two. I spoke to the folks at Sony. They have graciously allowed me to play one minute of it for you right about now or in a few seconds. And we've put the entire thing [e-mail] so if you go there, you can find it. And if you also search Jolene Remix by Jad on YouTube, you can hear it there. Heads up. The next Dolly Parton's America episode will come out in two weeks. That's December 3rd. That's episode seven and we'll just go out with a minute of the remix. You can find the whole [e-mail] I'm Chad Abumurad. Thanks for listening. You can hear the whole [e-mail], see you in two weeks.

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