Hour 1: Giants Fire Bowen

Summary

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Don, Hahn & Rosenberg — Hour 1: Giants Fire Bowen

Date: November 24, 2025
Main Theme: The fallout from the New York Giants’ decision to fire defensive coordinator Shane Bowen after another blown lead, and the broader implications for the franchise’s coaching staff, organizational direction, and current roster talent.

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Episode Overview

The trio kicks off with their usual banter but quickly turn to the main story: the New York Giants have fired defensive coordinator Shane Bowen after another crushing defeat where they lost despite amassing over 500 yards of offense. The discussion spans whether the Giants’ structural problems are about talent, coaching, organizational culture, or all of the above. The episode features passionate exchanges on Giants interim head coach Mike Kafka, general manager Joe Schoen, quarterback decisions, and how the team’s late-game collapses suggest deeper issues.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Games Recap and Personal Football Weekend

• Don describes watching the Jets and Giants simultaneously at a family farm, joking about the “two bowls of gruel” he was subjected to as both teams struggled ([03:09-04:07]).
• Discussion pivots quickly to miserable New York football— with Don noting the contrast between the winning mentality of teams like the Chiefs and the Giants’ epic ineptitude in closing games.

2. Giants’ Blown Leads and Coaching Decisions

• The Giants surrendered yet another late lead, losing after an offensive explosion— prompting the firing of Shane Bowen ([07:30] and [08:19]).
• Hahn: “What we're seeing is it's the defense that’s the major problem. The offense with capable quarterbacks is clearly an offense that can score and it does. Also, one more question is why the hell was Jameis Winston not even dressing for games earlier this season?” ([07:30-08:19])
• The main debate: Is the problem cultural, schematic, or about player talent?
  • Don: “There is a loser stink here that needs to be hosed off.” ([16:26])
  • Anthony (producer and die-hard Giants fan): “They lost the same game they lost five times this year already… I don't know why anybody that watches this team would want anybody from this regime back.” ([15:03-15:51])

3. Quarterback Carousel: Dart, Winston, Wilson

• Hahn: Puzzles over why Winston didn’t start earlier; wonders whether Dable had a personal issue or an undisclosed reason for not playing him ([09:13-11:04]).
• Peter: “Russell Wilson has been cooked. We know Jameis Winston will give you 30 picks every year, but he's a dynamic offensive player and he galvanizes his group.” ([09:45])
• Don: Suggests maybe there was a behind-the-scenes agreement with Wilson to start the season, but can’t explain Winston’s lack of use ([11:18-12:11]).

4. Should the Giants Blow Up the Regime or Salvage Pieces?

• Hahn: Thinks the talent is there; the defense and coaching are failing the roster ([13:27-14:59]).
• Anthony: Wants everyone gone—calls for a complete organizational reset: “I hope [Kafka] gets [a chance] somewhere else because I think anything that's a part of this needs to go.” ([17:06])
• Don: Kafka now making coaching personnel decisions (firing Bowen) indicates he’s being seriously considered for the permanent job ([17:16-18:50]).

5. Is Coaching or Talent the Bigger Issue?

• Hahn: “A team with a bad roster doesn't have that many 10-point leads in the second half... A team that's good but poorly coached always finds a way to keep it competitive or have leads. And then they blow it because they're just poorly coached. They can't finish games for whatever reason.” ([23:17]).
• Peter: “I agree there's a culture problem here. This, this them blowing leads is a problem… but it is hard for me to throw out the baby with the bath water.” ([22:53]).

6. Kafka’s Chances as Permanent Head Coach

• Kafka addresses the media post-firing Bowen:

  "Made the tough decision today to let Shane go as our defensive coordinator and... we're going to let Charlie Bullen run the defense... obviously these decisions aren't easy and Shane's a good person, he's a good man, he's a good coach. Just the results just weren't where we wanted them to be." ([26:08])

• Don: “I just have a feeling, guys, [Kafka's] the favorite right now and it's getting close to where, you know, Pete, I'm not right where you are, but it might be his job to lose. It could be.” ([27:55])
• Hahn: Emphasizes the process isn't over, especially if a “big name” coach comes free. Kafka’s fate depends on how attractive the Giants job is relative to other coaching openings ([28:32]).

7. Playcall Debate: Field Goal or Go For It?

• Fourth and Goal controversy—should Kafka have kicked or attempted to ice the game?
  • Don: “At that moment, fourth down, I said aloud, kick the field goal because... I'm going to force them to get a touchdown rather than [a] field goal.” ([31:04])
  • Hahn: “You take the points in this situation, you have to and then... if they do [score a touchdown], then you stare down at your defensive coordinator and say, ‘what the hell, man?’” ([32:07])
  • Peter: “It's ridiculous. You kick a field goal, you go up six.” ([32:52])
  • Don: Critiques performative “Riverboat Ron” aggression: “...Now it's become the mentality of these coaches is going back to Ron Rivera... I'm a gambler man… Sometimes maybe the better thing to do is dial it back, not be such a man and just be logical...” ([33:48])

8. Passionate Fan and Listener Reactions

• Anthony and Tessa (callers) both express exhaustion and cynicism as long-suffering Giants fans. Tessa:

  “The pool is polluted with pee trash and full of bu. Have to drain the whole pool out... He's [Kafka] still a part of the problem.” ([42:24])

• **Other fans, like Corey in Old Bridge, see value in talent assembled by GM Schoen and urge for patience or targeted change, not a total blow-up ([37:08-38:22]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Don on the state of New York football:

  “It’s like getting two bowls of gruel, right? Like when Oliver said, ‘more, please.’ I got more.” ([03:58])

• Anthony’s Giants indictment:

  “They lost the same game they lost five times this year already...You’re the only team that has had two 500 yard games on offense and lost both of them...” ([15:03])

• Hahn on the root problem:

  “A team with a bad roster doesn’t have that many 10 point leads in the fourth quarter... A team that's good but poorly coached... blows it because they're just poorly coached. They can't finish games.” ([23:17])

• Peter on Kafka's predicament:

  “I don't need to see professional teams coach their teams the way I play Madden... I wonder if there's a possibility, guys, that you particularly roll the dice here because in the end you don't care if you lose.” ([33:51])

• Tessa, the exhausted fan:

  “The pool is polluted with pee trash and full of bu. Have to drain the whole pool out. We can't even treat it. We have to drain it.” ([42:24])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [04:07] – Don’s “two bowls of gruel” anecdote; the state of NY football.
• [07:30 & 08:19] – Giants’ defense blamed; Bowen firing discussed.
• [09:13-11:04] – On Winston vs. Wilson at QB; Kafka and Dable’s roles.
• [13:27-15:51] – Blow it up or salvage talent? Anthony’s passionate fan rant.
• [16:26] – Don: “There is a loser stink here that needs to be hosed off.”
• [23:17] – Hahn on the difference between bad coaching and bad roster.
• [26:08] – Interim coach Mike Kafka’s remarks after firing Bowen.
• [31:04-34:43] – The 4th-and-goal playcall debate; field goal vs. going for it.
• [42:24] – Tessa’s “drain the pool” metaphor and fans’ exhaustion.

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Conclusion

The hosts dissect the endless cycle of hope and frustration with the Giants, centering on the firing of Bowen, Kafka’s potential future, and whether the team needs a massive overhaul or just targeted changes. The passion from both the hosts and their fans underscores just how exhausting and emotionally charged this season has been. The real question heading into the off-season: do you rip it all up, or is there enough beneath the “loser stink” to salvage?

Memorable Summary Tone: Frustrated but funny, always passionate, and unafraid of hard truths—equal parts sports bar argument and group therapy for Giants fans.

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Transcript

[Anthony]

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[Hahn]

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[Hahn]

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[Don]

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[Peter]

Don, you're a filth bag.

[Don]

You're a sex star filth bag. Han, the guy's gonna be 41 flicking it.

[Hahn]

And Rosenberg, go look at Redford in.

[Peter]

That movie right now. You'll want to hook up with him. This isn't North Dakota. This is New York.

[Hahn]

This is Don, Han, and Rosenberg.

[Don]

The best threesome I've ever heard on ESPN New York and streaming live on YouTube. Oh.

[Peter]

Oh, boy. It's 302 in the big city. Happy, Alan?

[Hahn]

Did you guys see the Golden Child yesterday?

[Peter]

Oh, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Don]

I've seen it many times.

[Hahn]

Redemption. Redemption.

[Peter]

No, no, hold on.

[Hahn]

You all laughed at me. You all said it. You all said it. Is he a fool? He's taking the Browns.

[Peter]

No, it's too soon.

[Hahn]

Is he crazy? Crazy like a fox.

[Don]

Against the Raider team where they're three quarterback is giving a finger to the crowd.

[Peter]

All right, it's a good start.

[Don]

You know, it's a nice start. You know, get it out.

[Hahn]

Had to get it out.

[Don]

Dababy didn't poop himself for the first hour. It's a win.

[Hahn]

It's a win. That's all that matters. It's three points in the pocket.

[Peter]

I. I did not know.

[Hahn]

Big five point weekend.

[Peter]

Didn't know. I did not know in the first eight seconds we were going to get to Shador Sanders.

[Hahn]

What did I tell you? I told you on Friday that I would.

[Don]

Yeah.

[Peter]

By the way, Don, ever done it in the first eight seconds?

[Hahn]

No, never.

[Peter]

Not once.

[Hahn]

No, I know. No, but this is different.

[Peter]

This is your love. This is your boy. And by the way, the funny thing to be, right, the funniest thing about it, Don, is that I watch. Obviously, I wasn't able to settle in for the whole game, but I watched Pieces and I watched the long 15 minute highlight. I thought he sucked. I'm not kidding. Every play I saw of his, I was like, even the big deep ball he connected on, it always seemed like he was just done chucking it up, like a miracle. And then when it's. When they get in the red zone, you Know what they do? They take them out of the game. They run direct snap.

[Hahn]

Watch your mouth.

[Peter]

Every time. You know what, we're in the red. You know what you see with the great quarterbacks, Don? You take them out of the game when they get inside the tent.

[Hahn]

It's the new NFL. Get used to it.

[Don]

It's a bit of a project for Allen. He should be proud.

[Anthony]

He should be.

[Peter]

It's a great pick.

[Don]

If he does eventually win this, it literally, he would have been there from the laying of the foundation right up to the, you know, put, putting the lights on top of the Empire State Building. He's there for the entire three and a half year construction of this thing.

[Peter]

No, you deserve it. You should, you should lay in at all these points.

[Don]

And the three points are good too for you.

[Hahn]

Three, big three.

[Don]

I had a tough week, but I did get the three pointer with the Bears.

[Hahn]

Yes.

[Don]

So I was happy with that. But boy football, man, football.

[Peter]

And I, and I get it, I get a nice two in one week and it's good for nothing because the, the Chiefs were my three point play.

[Don]

And they, the Chiefs are back, man. You know what they're back doing?

[Peter]

Not covered. The Chiefs are back to doing what you do. You root for them to cover for you and then you go, you know what? Screw it. Then just lose. And they go, no, no, we'll win, we just won't cover.

[Hahn]

It's.

[Don]

You know what, I got to tell you because this will set up what we're going to talk about. But we had a family get together yesterday at my wife's cousin's farm up in Sussex County.

[Peter]

Wife's cousins, farms.

[Don]

They have an alpaca farm up in, in, in wantage. It's amazing. It's a great time. Kids have a great time.

[Peter]

Kids got to love the alpaca.

[Don]

Playing with the baby chicks and it was just really cool. Okay, but their living room, they had, they had a two TV setup. So we got the jets on one tv, Giants on the other. It was a perfect.

[Peter]

So much bad football at one time.

[Don]

Yeah, yeah, right. You hate. It's like getting two bowls of gruel, right? Like when Oliver said, more, please. I got more.

[Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don]

And it was, it was a great setup considering, you know, you hate those family outings on a Sunday because of football. But honestly, how am I going to say no when these two teams are God awful? Even the, even the excuse of I got to watch it for work, honey.

[Peter]

No, it's difficult. You'd survive.

[Don]

But it, but it worked. But the Setup, so I didn't miss it. Down was great. So the Jet game, if you paid attention to it, and God bless you, hell no. That game, the one thing they did you a favor was over quick. So you got to see on CBS in New York, pretty much the most important part of the fourth quarter and all of overtime of Colts, Chiefs.

[Hahn]

Yes.

[Peter]

Right.

[Don]

So as the Giants are blowing their lead and just, you know, vomiting all over themselves in a big spot like they always do, they're the Chiefs shadow of their own goal post. 4th down, they're going to lose, they're going to fall under.500. Big 4th down conversion March down the field, tie the game, win the game in overtime and was right there. Two TVs in one living room of a team that knows how to win and a team that does not know how to win. And there it was, all encompassing. But yeah, the Chiefs are back to learning how to win. But the hook always cost you, Peter. That's why the Chiefs, even when they were a bet to win the game, not covering, they were at a three and a half point favorite and they won by three. But not all the way back. But I just thought that that was really important in what to do and what not to do.

[Hahn]

No, we also learned, we continue to learn each week that nobody ever wants to admit the fact that the running game is still the most important part of the game. Quarterbacks are important in key moments. Yes, defense is important, clearly. But when you have a running game, you have a chance to win every single game. And when you can't run, you will lose.

[Don]

But in only certain, when you've got a lead, it is definitely the most important thing to have. Yeah, if you're down two scores, it's not exactly the most important thing to have.

[Hahn]

Well, look at the Eagles.

[Don]

But you got to be able to find a way to be able to hold on to a lead. And Barkley's not the same that he was last year, but still, that's crazy, man. You know, there's another thing where I would not put Dak Prescott among the greatest quarterbacks I've ever seen play. But damn, does he know how to win a divisional game at home?

[Hahn]

And it's 22 and 2.

[Don]

And as somebody who roots for a team that never does that, it is pretty amazing. So give, listen down 21, looking bad too, like this, looking like there was no shot to be able to win that game. But that's what, that's what the, that's what Dak does. You know, they won't Take them very far. But they. The one thing they can do was it 22 and two at home against 22 and two.

[Hahn]

It's right.

[Don]

I mean it's ridiculous.

[Hahn]

No, they.

[Peter]

This. Listen, I. Since the commanders stink, I want chaos. I was all for the Dallas win, give me chaos. I don't agree. I don't want the Eagles to just go marching through. I mean the Giants have made it clear, you know that. And one thing you didn't mention, Docs, we're making fun of how putrid the football is in New York. To be clear, this Giants brand of putrid is much more entertaining than it used to be. They blow it in the fourth quarter, I'll take that over 12 points. Like they score. They're interesting. Jameis Winston's an exciting player to watch. Then they just lose. So at least you're getting some entertaining football. I just want the whole division up in flames. So give me that Eagles loss in Dallas.

[Don]

I Love it.

[Peter]

Up 21. Nothing too now.

[Hahn]

But, but what do we make now of this, this with the Giants because there's so many. Forget the game and it's the law. All that stuff is out because we don't care about the result at this point. Right. Because what's happening now is how. How are you viewing this team going forward? And there's a. There's many different things. There's the head coach, there's the interim head coach and decisions he made. There's a decision that he made today which is to fire Shane Bowen, which is probably several weeks too late. But it does acknowledge what we've all seen, which is that defense stinks. That this offense over 500 yards of offense and you lost. Like how so so this again what we're seeing is it's the defense is the major problem. The offense with capable quarterbacks is clearly an offense that can score and it does. Also one more question is why the hell was Jameis Winston not even dressing for games earlier this season?

[Don]

I will say this. I don't. You know, it's only two games and listen, you lost to better teams. The packers and the Lions are better than the Giants. And if you didn't have all the past and all the bias of how you feel about this organization, you can't kill them for losing to two really quality teams. I mean Detroit has not lost back to back games since literally 2022. Like so they don't lose back to back games. And the packers are a good football team. But when you throw all the other junk in, it's really hard to be proud of it or happy about any of it. And the one thing I think we did learn in the last two games is they did the right thing firing Dable. I honestly. Because it just looks different to me. You can't put a figure out. It just looks better. It looks more organized, it looks more creative. There's more confidence. It just looks better in the last two games than what we saw under Dable all season long.

[Peter]

No, the only thing that feels the exact same is the fourth quarter.

[Don]

Well, right, the fourth.

[Hahn]

Well, the fourth quarter. But. But Don, you could also argue that once Dart got in there, the offense actually looked really good with Dable too. Like, again, my question is, okay, clearly the offense isn't a problem. It's why was Russell Wilson a backing up even after he was taken out as a starter and why did he start the season? We all just assumed that Jameis must.

[Don]

Not be very good and that's.

[Hahn]

He looks like a guy that thrives in an offense.

[Peter]

Like, by the way, I. I just want to say. I just want to say clear. Cause if I don't say it, no one else will. I didn't assume that. I. I've said all year, where's Jameis Winston?

[Hahn]

That's fair.

[Peter]

Russell Wilson has been cooked. We know Jameis Winston will give you 30 picks every year, but he's a dynamic offensive player and he galvanizes his group.

[Hahn]

Man, you see, the energy is different.

[Don]

And it was so obvious, Peter, that, you know, stupid out of me to lean towards. Well, there must be something up with Linston. He can't play if he can't take the job away from Russ. He must just be shot. No, it's a reasonable thought you had. That is not the case.

[Peter]

He.

[Don]

He is not shot. He gives energy. Listen, there's only. There's limitations to his game too. I mean, we know that that was a bad pick that he threw and the defense actually bailed him out of that early in that. In that second half. But no, listen, it's creative, it's fun. You can see everybody else jumping around. I think that more than anything else really puts the finishing touches on the Dable firing. Is that how did he not go to him? And how many of these games could they have won if he was the quarterback late in some of these losses? It just. Or just how would it have looked if he was the starting quarterback instead of Russell Wilson the first three weeks of the season?

[Peter]

Well, now it drives you crazy. And it's interesting to think about too, right, guys? That Changes the whole season does. If you start with Winston in the first few games and maybe they get a W or two instead of losing them. Although again, he's lost his two games. It changes the whole timing of the DART project.

[Hahn]

Yes, it does.

[Peter]

Everything's different. If they weren't obsessed with Wilson early on, and I just don't understand what Dable could have been thinking or what personal thing he had against Winston. And if that was the case, why'd they bring Winston into the first place?

[Don]

I can explain away that they probably made some sort of handshake agreement with Russ that he would start the season. So I, I, I don't doubt that. I don't have.

[Peter]

We're bringing you in to be the starter.

[Don]

But that, but I don't, I can't explain why he had to be the backup the second dart came unless they just didn't want to insult him. But when you see the poor play backing up, well, that's when you say, all right, well, Winston's going to be the guy. And Winston didn't become the guy until Kafka took over. So there must have been something between them. Although Winston had nothing but praise for Dable as he walked out the door. Maybe that was good juju by Winston. Just didn't want to, like, disrupt things or admit that there was an issue between the two of them. I don't know, but he's got a lot of explaining to do one day on why Winston wasn't given more of a chance. Just a bunch of reasons why Dable was fired in the first place. There's also a lot of reasons why people buy a Ramsey Mazda.

[Peter]

Wow, he did it.

[Don]

It's their customer service and it's their savings during the more to move you event. Lisa new 2025 Mazda CX5 2.5s, all wheel drive for 229 for 36 months. Start shopping now at Ramsey Mazda.com choose wisely. Choose Ramsey Mazda. Call 833-853-2970 for details. Fin S 0754-14711 MSRP. $31,070 0 security deposit and 121 25. So now we move on to. Is this just further evidence that they got to blow the whole thing up because it's still the same result? Or do we dig a little deeper and look at the good of Kafka and say, hey, it's a defensive issue. They just got rid of the problem. Bowen. Now we can move forward? Obviously not now. You've got, you've got a Linebackers coach taking over the rest of the way. But was that the final problem or are you still of the ilk? You know what, just blow the whole damn thing up.

[Hahn]

I want to phone a friend because we talk. We've been talking about the Giants all year, right? And we all, even Donnie, with your Giant fandom, you still do have though this disconnect right now emotionally, right? Like. Cause you're looking at again practical, practically. You're looking at it from a week to week thing. You already know the season's over.

[Don]

Yes.

[Hahn]

But anytime we have in our meetings a conversation. Anthony is a Giants fan and you can hear it every time he talks about him. He hates coming on the mic to show it, but I almost feel like today is the right day for this because I don't feel like a full, clean everything out upheaval. Because you are seeing a lot of pieces on this team and you're seeing the pieces like perform well. It's the defense giving up points late. It's another 10 point lead late. The record that they have here in leading by double digits, being 2 and 5 this season, leading by double digits just doesn't make sense on any level. But yet they do because the defense was bad. But there are, there's talent on this roster. This team is good enough when it comes to winning games. We've already told you that they had like, they have enough to have had a 500 record at one point this season. And they were blowing games late because the defense was bad and the coaching was bad. So I don't think you have to blow the whole front office out. I think now what you're wondering is, is Kafka a guy that coached his way out of being considered for the job from the decisions he made late in the game last night or yesterday? And Anthony's response was, I don't care. No one should be considered. He wants all new people. Anthony, please bring the same energy you brought in the meeting right now on the show and let us know exactly how you feel as a Giants fan as we sit here and try to talk about what's the best thing for the Giants to do going forward.

[Anthony]

What the heck have you guys been talking about for 16 minutes?

[Peter]

It's a great point.

[Anthony]

It looks better.

[Hahn]

What's better?

[Anthony]

They lost the same game they lost five times this year already. You're the only team that has had two 500 yard games on offense and lost both of them with, with a defense that's supposedly supposed to be carrying this team with a young quarterback in Jackson Dart, who was supposed to have some growing pains or Russell Wilson or Jameis Winston. And that's not the problem. And you guys talking about, oh, you shouldn't have kicked, you should have kicked the field goal.

[Caller]

Why?

[Anthony]

What's the difference? They could have scored a touchdown.

[Peter]

You know what?

[Anthony]

You know what it would have done? It would have allowed the east coast audience to enjoy whatever one o' clock game was still going on and not have to watch overtime because the same thing would have happened. Jameer Gibbs would ran for 70 yards in the fourth quarter and win the game as opposed to running once in overtime and the Giants lose. I don't know why anybody that watches this team would want anybody from this regime back.

[Don]

And I hear that and I'm sure a lot of fans listening 1-800-919-3776 are going to agree with that. But if, if you look at it and say, well, wait a minute, in those five games, and those five games are Packers, Bears, Broncos, Lions and Cowboys, possibility that all five of those teams are going to be playoff teams, not to mention the two playoff teams they beat and the Chargers and the Eagles. So you have the talent for three and a half quarters, but you don't have it for the final seven minutes of the game. Now, I agree with you. There is a loser stink here that needs to be hosed off.

[Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don]

Because these guys are just used to losing, have forgotten how to win. But Kafka can't change all that in two games and against the packers and against the Lions, they didn't get blown out. They didn't get embarrassed. They hung in there and ended up, listen, if those were the only two blown leads of the year, you probably would say, hey, listen, they hung with two really good teams and just weren't good enough. But it's not game.

[Anthony]

It's not, it's not, it's not.

[Don]

But that. Right. So you win the argument because it's not. But to me it just looks a little bit more organized. Now we can, we can debate whether he kicked, should kick the field goal, go for, go for it on fourth down. We will do that in a little bit.

[Anthony]

But guess what, Don, Sometimes life isn't fair. And if Mike Kafka deserves a chance, that's great. I hope he gets it somewhere else because I think anything that's a part of this needs to go.

[Don]

I tell you what, he got the chance. If you listen to him and you listen to the reports he fired Bowen, to me that's an indication that he right now is the favorite to get this job has to be. He is making decisions in the organization. He is firing the defensive coordinator because he knows it depends on how it looks and he's got six games left to try to kind of improve on things and he figures this defensive coordinator is not going to do it for me. He has power. So whether it's right or wrong, I think they've given him a leash here. I think right at this second it might change by next week, it might change in a couple of weeks. He's the favorite get this job. I think Myra wants him to get this job. So I'm kind of looking at it through that prism. He's highly respected in the NFL. He's gotten interviews before. Yeah, you could explain that away because of the whole Rooney rule situation with the Rooney rule and the fact that he's. He's part of the Puerto Rican. But also you hear reports he's respect, highly respected. I want to make sure, Anthony, another blown thing by this organization is not letting a good coach walk out the door. So I want to see what he can do here. So yes, they've blown leads like they have before, but this isn't the Denver game, okay? This was a really good team that hasn't lost back to back games in three years. Winning a game when maybe you made a questionable call, not making it a six point game maybe. I'm sorry, the Lions game and the Packer game are not Denver are not Dallas are not New Orleans and not the Bear game. I'm sorry, this, these two games do look different to me.

[Anthony]

It could look different, Dom, but it still ends in a loss. And this is year four of the Shane regime and whatever you want to call it. And you're still doing the same stuff that's causing you to lose games. And maybe it's not as embarrassing or maybe it's not as ugly, but it's still a loss. And everybody knew what was going to happen when they were up by 10. Everybody knew the Jameis Winston interception, that didn't happen. I mean, look, it didn't end up costing that much but everybody knew an interception was going to happen. Everybody knew that Jameer Gibbs couldn't be stopped at all or Aman Ross, St. Brown. They could have done whatever they wanted on this vaunted defense. And I'm not saying good.

[Don]

But you know what's different? You know what's different, Anthony? The fact is, again, there's question marks on play. Calling on defense that Dexter Lawrence was not on the field for that play was not on the field for any of the long runs. And what happened, unlike under Dabel, the coach that made that decisions right now out of a job. So there's a difference right there that you know what you screwed up and now you're out of a job. Gave you a chance, gave you a little leash, gave you two games to correct it and instead your defense couldn't come up with a big stop. And our best defensive player was. Wasn't on the field on the 69 yard touchdown run. So if you think there's a difference.

[Anthony]

Right there, look, no argument that I don't. Look, I don't know Mike Kafka. I'm sure he's a nice guy. Maybe he is a good coach. And it seems like the offense, whether it be Dable or Kafka running it seems to be operating fine with either Jameis Winston or Jackson Dart at quarterback. Are you of the belief that Joe Shane will be coming back at the.

[Don]

End of the year? Let's see. We're two different things but I am, I'm willing to wait Allen to see where Kafka goes. But I'm not fighting Anthony right now on Kafka. I'm fighting it on Shane.

[Hahn]

Yes, I am too.

[Don]

And I think, I think Shane, I would have, I would not have a problem. Let's see how it goes. Here's the only half right now of Shane coming back.

[Hahn]

Here's the counter to. And Anthony, by the way, that was excellent.

[Don]

Great job.

[Hahn]

Really. Because that's, that's the kind of energy that we needed off this. But honestly, because of, of what you're, what you're talking about is it's another loss. Of course it is because it's a poorly coached team. That's what we've known for a while now. Poorly coached team. And they were defensively poorly coached throughout this entire season. That's being, I mean week after week we see evidence of that. Yet they have personnel talent. No one can argue it. Any NFL expert will tell you there's a lot of talent on this roster which is what makes this job so valuable which is why some people would take this job despite the fact that this team is going to have probably the second pick in the draft which might make it might add to the fact that it's a valuable job. But what you're talking about in wins and losses is coaching. This is not talent. They have a lot of talent. They have not been able to put it together because it's poorly coached talent, poorly used talent. That's simply it I'll say it one more time. Joe Shane is not bad at a thousand. No GM does, no. But he has found some pieces, man. He has found some good players. Theo Johnson, by the way, for all the drops that he's had around the way he's starting to come around as a valuable target at tight end. Really good target, made some huge catches. So that's another piece. You have to understand that if you change, make the right change, bring in an adult who can get this thing organized and get guys on the right page and hold players accountable where Malik Neighbors doesn't have to tweet stuff like that, that we're all thinking that even the players are feeling that way. That stuff's got to go. If you get somebody that comes in here and takes control of the culture and coaches properly, you have enough talent here to flip the record by next year, I guarantee it. Flip the record because that's how much talent is on this team.

[Anthony]

Are they going to learn how to tackle in that time?

[Hahn]

Well, that's your linebackers in your secondary and they got to got to change that area of the game.

[Anthony]

No, Javon Holland said it after the game that you have to be able to hit Jameer Gibbs at least, at the very least just make contact with him at the first level.

[Don]

They couldn't even do that.

[Hahn]

That'd be a linebacker like three or four times. By the way, Dexter Lawrence is a run stopper, right? He wasn't in the game.

[Peter]

And also we can look at every team in this league. Anthony struggling to tackle Jameer Gibbs.

[Hahn]

That's a fair point. He actually had humble this one.

[Anthony]

Peter is the only team that has lost five games where they've had a double digit lead.

[Peter]

I listen, you have every right to want to throw it all away, but I totally understand what Alan's saying about the level of talent they found here. And trust me, I know it sounds crazy. I'm watching a team that's playing significantly worse football than the Giants. That they do play some pretty good football. I agree there's a culture problem here. This, this them blowing leads is a problem. They do have some issues in the secondary, but it is hard for me to throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Hahn]

Peter, what you're saying can be easily quantified this way. A team with a bad roster doesn't have that many 10 point leads in the second half. Fourth quarter. You're not good enough. Like just again, you just get drunk. Look in the same town, the jets, they never have leads ever. They're just never good enough to have a lead. You know what I mean? They're always chasing the score, but bad teams do that. A team that's good but poorly coached always finds a way to keep it competitive or have leads. And then they blow it because they're just poorly coached. They can't finish games for whatever reason. Defense, whatever it is, they have a problem with it. That's usually coaching. That's not talent.

[Don]

Second and third layers of this defense do need improvement.

[Hahn]

Oh yeah, no, they got it.

[Don]

No general manager is perfect.

[Peter]

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[Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast.

[Peter]

Don han, rosenberg 331 Thanksgiving week is upon us, and no one left in this town is playing any meaningful football. But that doesn't mean there's not interesting conversations being had about those football teams, including major moves by the New York Giants, Shane Bowen out as defensive coordinator. Here's Mike Kafka, the interim head coach on today's moves.

[Hahn]

You know, made the tough decision today to let Shane go as our defensive coordinator and effective immediately, we're going to let Charlie Bullen run the defense as our defensive coordinator. I got a lot of faith in Charlie and you know, obviously these decisions aren't easy and Shane's a good person, he's a good man, he's a good coach. Just the results just weren't where we wanted them to be. And so Charlie is going to kind of step up for us and rally the group. The defensive staff will rally around Charlie and put together a great play. I got a lot of confidence in the room and a lot of confidence in our staff to do that.

[Don]

Sounds like a guy that made a decision, didn't it Peter?

[Peter]

It's sure what it sounded like to me it sounded like, but it's a.

[Hahn]

Decision for this season. I mean you got to know that he wasn't coming back next year anyway, right? So if he just says hey listen, the defense just isn't good enough, they say hey, if you want to make a change, make a change. It's your staff right now. Like I don't, I, I'm not, oh, I'm not reading too much into this guys. This is a, this is a this season decision. Shane Bowen was never going to be around next year.

[Don]

That's right. But he is given the power to try to win this job. That's what I'm reading into. And again I'm coupling this from the conversation a couple of weeks ago, sitting right here at the Rock talking to Carl Banks who did not want to speculate on who the next coach could be because they've got a coach right now, as he said in Shane Bowen that's going to give it be given a chance. And listen, he's tapped into this organization. So that told me.

[Peter]

Who are you talking to again?

[Hahn]

Carl.

[Don]

But I forgot it was important to drop it because it wasn't just some schmo. It was a guy that's Carl to the organization. And, and we all felt when Carl said that, hey, yeah, this got some legs, man. I think Kafka is going to get a look now Kafka is getting to make changes to the coaching staff. So all I'm saying I'm not that he's going to get the job. I'm not even sure I want him to get the job. That's why I want to see how this plays out.

[Hahn]

Okay.

[Don]

But I just have a Feeling, guys, he's the favorite right now and it's getting close to where, you know, Pete, I'm not right where you are, but it might be his job to lose. It could be. Especially if Shane's gonna stick around. They may not want to look any further and, and we don't know who the next guy's gonna be anyway. Looks like Lane Kiffin's gonna go to LSU. We don't even know if McCarthy or Tomlin or if Tomlin's gonna be available. McCarthy even wants the job. So don't be surprised if things work out that Kafka could be the coach of this team moving forward.

[Hahn]

I still think that there's going to be a process. I do. And it's very similar to also having Joe Shane head up the search for the next coach. Right. Because it's assuming that, okay, that means Joe Shane's not going anywhere. No, it just means that right now this is the way, this is the direction you're going in. I think it's the same thing with Kafka. But you look, if he's an interim coach who, who is going to be a candidate for the job, then you have to empower him to control your coaching staff the way you want and show us you can run a team. And that's a tough decision to make. And he made it. So it's all. I think it's all part of the process. I don't think it's. I don't think it's a great indicator of anything because I still think that the Giants coaching search will depend a lot on what kind of interest they get from people with real experience. That's what I feel like. They've got to know that the next coach they hire has got to have a resume who can come in and take what they've got on this roster and turn it around fast so that it's a competitor right away. That, to me is the highest priority of the coaching hire.

[Peter]

It will make not to Anthony, but to other people. It will make the coming weeks interesting though, to now see if there could be some improvement with Kafka + Kafka + Bowen. Do you see any sort of change that can make you believe in a boa, in a, in a Kafka led team?

[Hahn]

Yeah, it's a good question. And so let's start here. So Don, did you have a problem with him going forward on fourth and goal rather than take the points, take the lead and then, you know, try to win the game? I know it sounds crazy now with Your defense, but take the points rather than try to go for seven, which clearly at that point was going to be really hard to do a lot.

[Don]

Of things in play here. Number one, I get what he's doing because you want to end the game and you can end the game making it a two possession game at that point. But it's fourth and six and if you're going to tell me all along he was going to go for it on fourth down and explain to me the plays leading up to that because you end up losing three yards on third down. So, so at that moment, fourth down, I said aloud, kick the field goal because I'm going to make them four. I'm going to, I'm going to force them to get a touchdown rather than field goal. Once they've got to settle for three, once they miss on that fourth down, you know this game's going at least overtime. There's no way the Lions aren't getting in a field goal range. Now he almost missed the field goal and I guess there is the possibility of a turnover. But guys, didn't you figure, best case scenario, yeah, they're going overtime.

[Hahn]

Everybody said it the minute they had, the minute they got stopped on downs, that's all you thought was okay, well, they're going to now tie. At worst, they're going to tie this game.

[Don]

Now the fallacy of the predetermined outcome tells you, well, they would have won the game because they didn't get a touchdown. But obviously the Lions have different plays if they need a touchdown.

[Hahn]

Well, also the field goal to tie kick off too. Right, right. And there's that.

[Don]

Now then they had to go a long way. But still you knew, you knew the Lions were to get in the field goal range. So I in the moment, I would have taken the six. Now the argument on the other side is, well, your defense stinks. I get that. But you know, your defense did come up with a big stop after the Winston interception, which I thought was going to cripple them. And it didn't.

[Hahn]

Right.

[Don]

And if I all I have to do is stop you from getting a touchdown. I like my chances. Rather than keeping them out of field goal range in a dome where these guys are kicking 60 yard field goals. So I would have kicked it, but I see both sides of it. I don't think it's a fireable offense. I wasn't freaking out, I wasn't pulling my hair out. But I text the group at the time I would have kicked the field goal. What would you have done?

[Hahn]

Same. Didn't I say that? I believe I told you. You take the points in this situation, you have to and then you just force them to have to go all the way down the field. And if they do, then you stare down at your defensive coordinator and say, what the hell, man? Yeah, like that's all. Like that's what it has to be. I got your points. They have to get six now.

[Don]

They have to get six and they probably do. And the way the Giant season is going, they probably do.

[Hahn]

I don't care.

[Don]

I did my job.

[Peter]

But they didn't do it yesterday. You're telling me if they were able to get six after being down three, they wouldn't have ended in regulation. They didn't do it there. So, I mean, it's not a fireable offense or something that makes you completely judge Kafka because it's what this whole facoctor league is doing. But let's just say what needs to be said. It's ridiculous. You kick a field goal, you go up six.

[Don]

It's insane. I'm, I am not Freud, okay? I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'm not going to play pop psychologist. But Steve Young even said it. It's the college mentality that it's that has come to the NFL because Steve Young agreed with us, kicked the field goal. But hey, all the fans want to go for it. That's why they always boo when the punter comes out on 4th and 1. Everybody wants to roll the dice every because. Because their neck's not on the line. Right. So that's why fans think that way. But now that's become the mentality of these coaches is going back to Ron Rivera. Riverboat Ron. Oh, I'm a gambler man. I'm gonna lay it all out there like it's almost like proud, manly coach, I am always going to go for it. So you can stand up to the media and say, I went for it because I'm a man and I'm tougher than everybody else. You know what? Sometimes maybe the better thing to do is dial it back, not be such a man and just be logical and say, you know what? My defense isn't very good.

[Peter]

You know what?

[Don]

I would rather have them stop a touchdown on a field.

[Peter]

Yeah, I don't, I don't need to see professional teams coach their, their teams the way I play Madden. Like that's not what I'm looking for. I, where I go for it on fourth, my own nine. Like I don't need you to do that. But is, I wonder if there's a possibility, guys, that you particularly roll the dice here because in the end you don't care if you lose. Is there a part of that, like, let's just go.

[Hahn]

Well, that's what Malik Neighbors kind of suggested, didn't he? Again, if you were trying to win that game, you're also. You're also making them burn timeouts. And they didn't do that either.

[Anthony]

But it's not even about that, guys. When Mike Kafka came in, he said he was going to be more aggressive than Dable. The thing that annoyed a lot of Giants fans and what people were questioning was how conservative Dable was when in the only year that he was successful, he was going for two when it could have been a tie or he was going for a touchdown when he should have went for three. And he said he was going to be aggressive. We're going to cut out his legs from under him. Two press conferences later after saying he.

[Don]

Was going to be aggressive. But not every. Aggressive is not. I'm always going to be aggressive, not stupid.

[Hahn]

It wasn't stupid.

[Anthony]

They were going to give up the top touchdown. I promise you, I have a crystal ball. I can see the future. But no right.

[Hahn]

Anthony's right. And that's. I guarantee you in his heart of hearts he'll never admit it at the podium, but I guarantee you, Kafka said, I got to get. I got to get a touchdown here because this, this defense is not going to hold up if I only get three. That's exactly what he's thinking.

[Don]

He'll never say, okay, but it's fourth and six. Okay. So everybody knows in the world you're passing. And we all talk about how difficult it is in the red zone, even though they were good in the red zone. Lat yesterday of defending in the red zone because there's less coverage. So if, if they had ran the ball on a third and goal from the three and got two yards down to the one, I'd be all four running trying to get the first down or at least give you the option run or pass. But on fourth at six, it becomes an obvious passing situation and it became way easier to defend. So that's the problem. But I'll show you an example of aggressiveness, Anthony. If the Giants had scored the touchdown in the final possession, a smart aggressive would be, you know, I'm going to go for two and win the game.

[Anthony]

That's right.

[Don]

Yeah. Rather than give the ball back to him where all they have to do is kick a field goal. To me, that's lot. That's aggressive, that I have no problem with aggressiveness. But it seems like now it's very performative for these coaches to always err on the side of aggression so they could play tough guy in the post game to say, well, the reason I did it is because I'm tougher than everybody else. And I don't think about that. I'm going to chew knees sometimes. Hey, I'm with you. You can go either way with that. So I'm not going to kill Kafka. But the whole idea is when you're aggressive, that means you always have to make that decision. When it's 4th and 6 and you do have a backup quarterback, you know, whose last comfort behind victory was, you know, a calendar year ago, and say, what are the odds of me converting this fourth down as opposed to what are the odds of me stopping them getting a touchdown?

[Anthony]

I give them credit. I do give them credit because they tried to feel goal away earlier in the year and they lost that way. And then they tried to go for it this time and they lost this way. So they're losing all the different ways.

[Don]

They try and argue because they would have lost no matter what. Heck had scored the touchdown and still blew the 10 point lead with three minutes.

[Anthony]

That's why it gets me upset, Don, because we all watch it.

[Don]

No, because you lied and said you weren't gonna watch. You obviously watch because you can't stop yourself.

[Peter]

So you did care. That's what he's saying.

[Don]

He sound like a person that cared.

[Hahn]

Or look how fast he took himself off the screen.

[Peter]

He's gone. Let's go to Corey. Let's get. Let's let Corey jump in from the phones, get us started. We've been meaning to get to you guys and now we will get after it for the rest of the hour. Corey and Old Bridge, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, fellas. Happy Monday.

[Peter]

You too.

[Caller]

Hey, so long time. Giants fan, Die hard. Obviously it's been hard to watch the last couple years and then, you know, the last, you know, decade or so with all the other head coaches that they've had since Coughlin. It's. It's hard to point out one thing over the years, but I really feel like Joe Shane has deserved to keep his job. I know everyone else is asking for him to get fired now also, but I feel like the reason they have leads in some of these games are because of the talent that he's put on the field. He's giving the coaching staff the opportunity to become competitive and whether Kafka is the guy going forward, I think the three games I'm looking at, sorry, Peter, but Washington's one of them. Minnesota and Vegas, all winnable games in my eyes. Yeah, if he can show us that this team can win games, if they can finish three and four the last seven games, maybe Kafka becomes a real possibility of keeping the job. But I don't blame any of this on shown at all. I'd rather have him pick the next head coach than start over from scratch again. And then who knows what the next regime does with dart and this offense.

[Hahn]

That's a good call, Corey. Absolutely agree with you on that. Absolutely agree.

[Peter]

And there's definitely, definitely winnable games on this calendar.

[Don]

Hey, I don't rule out the Patriots. Patriots don't blow anybody out.

[Peter]

I don't rule the guys. They just stood toe to toe in the middle of the ring with Detroit, who given on a given week could put up a 4544 burger on the commanders like it's nothing. They're a good team. The Giants play well against basically everyone. It's just a matter of when they collapse. And can you stop that now? You want to know a situation where you know you won't collapse is if you use Amazon Pickup. That's right, because that's the thing. Amazon Pickup. It's the ultimate convenience play, and Amazon's already a part of your everyday life. But Amazon Pickup takes it to the next level. If you're pressed for time and you're on the go like I am, you can send your order straight to a secure pickup location that works for you. Amazon lockers are counters located near you. No matter where your day takes you, the package is ready when you are. Alright, Life never slows down. So instead of worrying about timing or schedules, your package waits for you. For me, with work, family, the baby at home, I'm always on the move. And Amazon Pickup gives me the flexibility to grab what I need between shows or errands or whatever my day may take me. It's simple. Order online and at checkout. Just choose the pickup location that's most convenient for you. You get an email confirmation when it's ready, with instructions to pick it up quick, secure, and always at no extra cost. Check it out for yourself. Go to Amazon.com pickup MVP to learn more. That's Amazon.com pickup MVP this episode is.

[Hahn]

Brought to you by State Farm.

[Don]

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[Don]

And for delivery thanks for listening to.

[Hahn]

The Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Hahn]

Cat. Demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter]

Game Time Brought to you by Tullamore Do Irish Whiskey because when it's game time. Now, the Knicks face the Nets in Brooklyn with coverage immediately following us right here on 880 at 7. Rangers host the Blues coverage on 1050 at 6:30 and St. John's and I was State is getting started in a bit on the ESPN New York app and Donnie's Devils are in Jersey facing the red wings at 7:30. Tullamore. Dude, the original triple distilled, triple blended or triple cast matured Irish whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore do or try the new Tullamore Do. Honey, during today's action, glasses up to enjoying Tullamore do responsibly as promised. We talk to you Tessa. What's going on?

[Caller]

Hey guys. So I made a promise to myself, but I think I'm gonna break it about not blacking out and crashing out, but I'm officially cooked. Listen, I'm not mad at Anthony. At the end of the day he said he wasn't gonna watch it, but when you love something, you do it. I'll be honest, you when I'm in The house sometime I put my shades on because I really don't want to watch the game. But I can't be away from it. So I ain't even mad at Anthony. But I do totally disagree with a lot of things you guys are saying.

[Hahn]

Really?

[Caller]

Not that much, Allen, but this is my thing. Like I said last week, the pool is polluted with pee trash and full of bu. Have to drain the whole pool out. We can't even treat it. We have to drain it. So at the end of the day, Kafka is the one that decided at the two yard line to go for a fourth and six when we couldn't even two times prior get the worst team in the red zone. Two times prior, we had to settle for three. So what do you mean aggressiveness when you can't even get a play, A cool trickery play or something for us to get into the end zone? I think people keep forgetting that we were in the end zone a lot in that game and we had to keep selling for three. He's the same guy calling the Denver play. He's the same guy calling the Dallas plays. I don't understand. I don't want no part of him. He is still a part of the problem. Of course he gonna keep good plays. He knew, just like we knew David was gonna be fired sometime this season as well as Bowen. Why would he bring all his tricks out? He's gonna save them. This is a publicity stunt. They just trying to make us Giants fans think that he's decent. So when they keep him next year, which is a terrible decision, we can be like, you know what? He did fire Bowen. You know what? He did have nice, cool, different plays. He had those plays because he knew he was going to get a chance to audition. So no, I don't want no part of him. He's nothing but a yes man. I'm tired. They should have fired Boeing like 30 years ago. I am so tired of being devastated, upset, soulless. I'm tired. Shout out to my Devils and my Lakers because that's the only thing I'm just taking pride in right now. But I would never, never leave my team. I will never love my Giants. I will love them to the day I die. But I don't want no part of Kafka. He was a part of the problem, guys. He was a part of the problem.

[Don]

Listen, I can't be mad at you for having that opinion. I don't want to speak for Alan, but I think when we were talking about bringing anybody back, I was More speaking about Shane than I was speaking about Kafka. But I can't be mad at her for that opinion. Yeah, throw it all, throw it all away if you want, but then don't scream. If all of a sudden he ends up someplace and ends up becoming a great coach, say, boy, we had him and we let him go. Give him a chance here. Let's see if you're right and it's just garbage pee in the pool. Well then they're going to lose out and it's going to look bad and it'll be an easy decision. But I'm willing to be open minded about Kafka moving forward and let's see what happens when the season ends. Is that fair?

[Hahn]

Yeah, I think so, but it's way too premature. I do agree and anything this coaching talk because Obviously when you're 2 and 10 there's nothing else to talk about other than next season and move forward because you're looking for something optimistic. When you're a fan you want to think about how it'll get better and you want to get to it as soon as you can. The problem is that's what sucks about when you're a bad team is there's still games left to play. And as a fan you're like whatever, I don't care. I don't care if they win or lose at this point there's a lot of that that goes on. But you have to understand that a coaching search process, I mean while, you know behind the scenes is already moves the interested parties that are already reaching out. That stuff is going on and it's real. You don't really know yet until the four other coaches on average, right, there's two already out. There's going to be at least four others that open up and you don't know who shakes free. And out of that group you might see somebody and say, you know what, that's a guy that we would want in here and it could change the way your franchise looks. There also could be somebody that's contacting you right now that you'd love to hire. But another job opens and that guy is like, you know what? That job's better and Buffalo is the team obviously everybody's looking at. So it's, it's so premature right now. Kafka has the job and if you're him, all you're thinking about is how do I prove that they don't need to hire anybody else, that I'm the guy. That's all he's trying to do right now. But you can't know. None of us. None of us can decide whether or not he is or isn't, because it all is based on. Am I wrong? It's all based on who's available. Because Kafka could finish this season out and he could win the next five games and it won't matter if Vince Lombardi is available. You know what I mean?

[Don]

Yeah.

[Hahn]

You don't know who's going to be available yet or who wants the job.

[Don]

I don't think Harbaugh is going anywhere in Baltimore. We'll see what happens with Tomlin and Pittsburgh, but maybe he stays. All right. Maybe McCarthy goes to Buffalo. If they make a change there. And you'd be sitting there and going, so it's all going to be assistants. It's all going to be guys that we don't know.

[Hahn]

Yep.

[Don]

And Kafka looks a lot better. But if there's somebody that really shakes loose that. That you want, then maybe he's gone again. It's. You're right. It's so premature. But I. Maybe I'm delusional. Maybe I've been looking at garbage for so long that anything looks pretty to me. It just. It looks a lot different and better the last couple of weeks. Let's say he disagrees, but that's how I feel.

[Peter]

Let's go to Frank in Newark. What's up, Frank?

[Caller]

All right. Good afternoon, guys. Don, remember a couple weeks ago when we were talking about the Chargers game and, you know, you understood, you know, you were saying that it was better to play it safe and just go for the field goal. Go for the field goal instead of going for two. One thing I always recall on being a Giants fan is there's no such thing as a safe league, especially when it's the Giants playing. Now, the one thing I'm actually happy to see is that there's still the same offensive efficiency with Mike Casper as the head coach, which means to tell me that the potential is there. The potential is there for the team. Now, on the defensive side of the ball, when you invest all that capital to have a defensive line like with Kayvon Thibodeau, with Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns, so on and so forth, I expect them to hit the quarterback and harass the quarterback on every play. I expect them to be like the 2007 Giants defensive line, and I haven't seen that. So I. The next. They got to get more. They got to get more creative with these blitz packages or whatever or what have you, because Brian Burns cannot be the only guy that consistently gets to the backfield.

[Don]

You know, Lawrence has to be better for sure. I think Carter has to be better for sure. But watching it, guys, I know we got to go to break quick. I'll just make this point. It does look like they that offenses can use the rush against them where they can use that over aggression that seems like they get close and then bang, there's a big play.

[Hahn]

Yep.

[Don]

They've got to get the second and third layers better. They got to get linebackers and secondary in here for sure. They've had injuries there. There have been bad drafts there as well. Banks wasn't even a game yesterday. But yeah, the defense, there's there's a lot to discuss about that defense.

[Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter]

I don't want to know how the.

[Hahn]

Sausage is made, man. I just want to know it's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.