Hour 1: Knicks Fire Thibs

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast – Episode: Hour 1: Knicks Fire Thibs

Release Date: June 3, 2025

In this compelling episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg, hosts Don Hahn, Alan Hahn, and Peter Rosenberg delve deep into the unexpected dismissal of Tom Thibodeau (commonly known as "Thibs") as the head coach of the New York Knicks. Released just an hour after the shocking announcement, the trio provides immediate reactions, analysis, and speculation on the implications for the Knicks' future.

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**1. Shock and Immediate Reactions

Alan Rosenberg kicks off the discussion with palpable surprise:

Alan Hahn ([00:49]): "I am officially stunned right now with the news Sham Charania reporting it minutes ago that the Knicks are firing Tom Thibodeau. I'm as shocked as Jalen Brunson might have been when he found out."

Don Hahn echoes this sentiment, expressing disbelief over the sudden decision:

Don Hahn ([00:57]): "Well, when you fire a coach, I don't care what sport it is, when you fire a coach, you're saying that we can't get there because of him."

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**2. Analyzing the Reasons Behind the Firing

The hosts explore potential motivations for the Knicks' decision. Don questions whether Thibs was indeed the obstacle to the team's championship aspirations:

Don Hahn ([02:54]): "Can you honestly say that Tibbs is holding them back? We have the talent, we've got the roster."

Alan considers organizational sentiments, suggesting that persistent internal frustrations may have culminated in this move:

Alan Hahn ([04:36]): "I'm telling you, as shocked as I am about this move, again, it's not surprising because of all the talk that has followed him all playoffs."

Don further probes into whether Thibs failed to lead the team to the "promised land" of an NBA championship:

Don Hahn ([07:52]): "Is there somebody he'll get you there, but can he get you the championship?"

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**3. Impact on Key Players and Organizational Dynamics

Jalen Brunson's loyalty and importance to the franchise come under scrutiny. Don speculates on how the firing might affect Brunson:

Don Hahn ([04:36]): "What does this do to Brunson? Brunson is the face of your franchise."

Alan points out that such a significant decision likely involved player input, suggesting a collective organizational shift:

Alan Hahn ([13:00]): "And I have, I've Tried to convince myself and anybody listening that I feel like he is... Also, like I said, I would also..."

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**4. Potential Candidates for the New Coach

The conversation transitions to potential replacements for Thibs. Alan contemplates possible names, considering experience and past success:

Alan Hahn ([22:46]): "What I have, just off the top of my head, I'm trying to scratch a couple of possible names."

Don emphasizes the necessity of hiring someone with a proven track record:

Don Hahn ([17:50]): "This is going to be a coach that's going to also now. It's got to take a lot of money."

Peter adds skepticism about unconventional choices, dismissing Jay Wright as a likely candidate:

Peter Rosenberg ([18:05]): "To me it's not enough. To me, he's not some sure thing in the NBA."

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**5. Comparisons to Past Knicks Coaching Changes

The hosts draw parallels between Thibs' firing and previous Knicks coaching upheavals, notably Jeff Van Gundy's tenure:

Alan Hahn ([14:16]): "And it feels like the same exact script."

Don recalls historic moments, likening the current situation to the aftermath of the 2017 Joe Girardi firing:

Don Hahn ([33:11]): "So, you know, and the last time something like this happened in New York..."

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**6. Fan Reactions and Caller Perspectives

Listener engagement is evident as callers express their dismay and confusion over the abrupt coaching change. One caller articulates the community's frustration:

Caller ([34:13]): "I feel physically ill. I'm having a hard time focusing. ... I feel like Dolan, he deserved. We deserve more. We need to know more."

Alan and Don respond empathetically, acknowledging the fans' emotional investment:

Alan Hahn ([35:11]): "All of a sudden now you lose to a patch."

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**7. Looking Forward: Knicks' Future Prospects

The discussion concludes with thoughts on what this coaching change means for the Knicks' trajectory. Alan expresses cautious optimism, referencing the franchise's potential to reach greater heights with the right leadership:

Alan Hahn ([31:32]): "And you get to [trust Leon Rose]. But there is always going to be apprehension from a fan because of history..."

Don underscores the critical nature of selecting the right coach to harness the team's existing talent:

Don Hahn ([43:39]): "But you can't do this without knowing who the next guy is. Because that's part of the process."

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Notable Quotes:

• Alan Hahn ([00:49]): "I am officially stunned right now with the news Sham Charania reporting it minutes ago that the Knicks are firing Tom Thibodeau."
• Don Hahn ([00:57]): "When you fire a coach... you're saying that we can't get there because of him."
• Don Hahn ([04:36]): "What does this do to Brunson? Brunson is the face of your franchise."
• Don Hahn ([17:50]): "This is going to be a coach that's going to also now. It's got to take a lot of money."
• Peter Rosenberg ([18:05]): "To me, he's not some sure thing in the NBA."
• Caller ([34:13]): "I feel like Dolan, he deserved. We deserve more. We need to know more."

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Conclusion

This episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg offers an in-depth and emotional exploration of the Knicks' decision to part ways with Tom Thibodeau. Balancing immediate reactions with thoughtful analysis, the hosts navigate the complex interplay of organizational strategy, player dynamics, and fan expectations. As the Knicks stand at a crossroads, the discussion underscores the high stakes involved in selecting the next head coach and the broader implications for the franchise's pursuit of an NBA championship.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message, privately with everyone. Don, give me a piece of wood. I'll eat it.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Don. Peter, the most used sweat is at a buffet.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And Rosenberg, I'll be honest, the one thing I miss about having an office is the taste of Steve Hart's nuts.

[Don Hahn]

This is in North Dakota. This is New York.

[Alan Rosenberg]

This is Don Hahn at Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The best threesome I've ever heard on.

[Alan Rosenberg]

880 ESPN and the ESPN New York app. I don't know where to begin. Right. I'll begin with this for everybody right now that you want to call in and you want to. You want to let me have it. Let me have it. I'm. I was wrong. I was wrong. I am officially stunned right now with the news Sham Charania reporting it minutes ago that the Knicks are firing Tom Thibodeau. I'm as shocked as Jalen Brunson might have been when he found out. Because the last words we heard from Brunson when he was asked about Tom Thibodeau's future, he was almost caught off guard by the question, couldn't believe it was asked, and gave a definitive yes, he believes in him, and I did, too. But clearly, in the organization, there were enough people that felt differently about it to convince Leon Rose that this was the move to make after reaching the conference finals. This was the move to make, and I cannot believe this is made in a vacuum. And I am still trying to collect information. That's how off I've been caught off guard by this. And again, everybody out there, you can call in and let me have it. Everybody I fought with all year, even last year, all of you have at me because I deserve it. I miss this one. I didn't see it. I thought he was the guy because of everything that he was able to do to get this franchise on track and to get them this close. And so now I am scrambling to find out. The most important piece of information now is who is next. Because you don't make this decision in a vacuum. You do this knowing with it, with. When you have a team this close, you've got to have an immediate plan. When you move on from a Coach who has done what he has done with Tom Thibodeau has done. So that's where I'm at right now. Everybody, welcome to the show.

[Don Hahn]

Well, when you fire a coach, I don't care what sport it is, when you fire a coach, you're saying that we can't get there because of him. We have the talent, we've got the roster. We can win. The thing that's holding us back is our coach. Can you honestly say that Tibbs is holding them back? We said at the beginning of the year they're not ready yet. It's not about this year. Now, were they handed a gift against the Pacers? The apparent gift of they popped the balloon with Boston, so now they should be able to cruise past Indiana, and now they'll be able to find themselves in the NBA Finals. All right, maybe there was a lost opportunity there, but when you looked at this roster, you said, it's good, it's getting there, but it's not about this year. And all of a sudden it became about this year because of who they played in the conference final. And it's Tibbs fault they lost. And what does this do to Brunson? Brunson is the face of your franchise. Brunson, when they were eliminated in game six, thought the co. The question about Tibbs was a joke. Are you kidding me right now? You're asking me that? And then what, 48 hours later, the guy's out of a job? How does Jalen feel right now? That's his guy. And I know how this organization works. I know they don't do the traditional exit interviews the way the Rangers do, but players have an influence. If Henrik Lundquist didn't like a coach, that coach is probably going to get fired. And I would think Jalen has that kind of sway. He took less money to stay here. You've got cap space because of him. Why would you tick him off? Unless you know the replacement for Tibbs is somebody that Jalen's going to love. And if you're telling me Jay Wright is not one of those guys, who is it that. That Jalen would love more than Tibbs? His dad? Are they gonna make his dad the head coach?

[Alan Rosenberg]

I'm telling you, as shocked as I am about this move, again, it's not surprising because of all the talk that has followed him all playoffs, that it blew my mind that no matter what accomplishments they had, the conversation never went away. And the. And that stuff seeps into the walls of an organization as you can't avoid it. And so the frustration of how this run ended seriously started to affect whoever is in charge. And they didn't like what they saw. But with that in mind, I'd be equally shocked if Jay Wright is the coach. I just don't see it. At this point in his life, he was. He has thought about coaching in the NBA. From what I know he said his dream job was always the Sixers because he's a Philly guy. This, at this point of his life would kind of surprise. It really would. It would surprise me. It's gotta be an NBA coach.

[Don Hahn]

Does not. So no. Danny Hurley, I.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Again, another one. Like, are you doing. Are you bringing. He's never coached in the NBA.

[Don Hahn]

I'm just trying because, like, you're gonna do that.

[Alan Rosenberg]

That is such a right turn. That's a hard right. Don't.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The only one that you can really.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Shock me, I'm telling you. Are you gonna get somebody who's already got a job in the organization? Is Michael Malone a New York guy? Is that. I mean, that's another one. Like, I kind of would be surprised.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The only one that I think you go, oh, I absolutely understand the plan would be Jay Wright.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I don't think it's gonna be that.

[Alan Rosenberg]

I just don't know if that's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And by the way, even us saying we understand that it's still a risk.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Can I read you the statement from.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The team, the one they just put up?

[Alan Rosenberg]

They just made it official.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So, yeah, there's a thank you Tibbs post up on Instagram.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Now we no longer have to credit chums. He did have it first 10 minutes ago, but the team has now made it official. Our organization is singularly focused on winning a championship for our fans. This pursuit led us to the difficult decision to inform Tom Thibodeau that we've decided to move in another direction. We can't thank Tom enough for pouring his heart and soul into each and every day of being the New York Knicks head coach. He led us to. Not only. He led us not only with class and professionalism for the past five seasons, but also to tremendous success on the court. With four playoff berths and four playoff series victories, Ultimately, we made the decision we feel is best for our organization moving forward. Tom will always be a part of our Knicks family. We truly wish him nothing but the best in the future. This man is 4th all time in wins in franchise history, and he was a half a season away from being third. Just keep in mind what he has accomplished. So save the bashing part of it please today. But I'm kind of surprised again, I'm really surprised by this and the timing of it and I'm really curious to see if there is already a preferred candidate as they say, when jobs open.

[Don Hahn]

Now you think the logic of Cuz I do think as much as I've defended Tibbs, the much as I don't agree with this firing, the one thing that I was open to having a conversation about is is he the guy that can lead you to the promised land? He had not done that. Not, not that it was his fault in Chicago or Minnesota. But you can ask the question, is there somebody he'll get you there, but can he get you the championship? Who's out there, Allen, that you say, well, this is. This is the closer. This is the guy that's going to get it. When the Rangers brought in Peter Laviolette, the guy had won a championship elsewhere. He had gone to a couple of Stanley cup finals. You could say he's got the resume that maybe Gallant didn't have because. Because Gallant went to a Stanley cup final, but he never won the chip. Who is the guy? Because you can't say that's the reason if you bring in somebody that's never won before. So if you're telling me that Tibbs can't get you to the promised land, don't you now have to replace him with somebody who has done it before? The other thing is the bench. It was something he didn't want to do. He ended up having to do it. Is that the questions they're asking right now? Why did it take him so long? Look how well the bench played. Why was this an issue all year? We were told we didn't have a bench and now we ended up having a bench. But we found out too late that that ticked somebody off in the organization to say this is not the way to win. That the guy has to be forced to use a bench that we didn't use. It was frozen over all year and then we finally used it Indiana series out of necessity and found out that we had a weapon that we didn't use all year. What could be the reason? Jalen Brunson's your star. He's the face of your franchise. Didn't, I'm sure, did not want this to happen. He thought the question was a joke after game six. Do you really want to tick this guy off?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, there's.

[Alan Rosenberg]

This is just a shock again. All this stuff's not enough. I'm sorry, Peter. No, just to answer what don Said because I processed it. There's no way this is. Again, none of this is in a vacuum. Brunson didn't. Didn't get. Didn't look on Twitter and see shams report and go, oh my God, trust me. Of course he's got to be aware. He's the captain of the team.

[Don Hahn]

Was he aware when he was asked the question after game six?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Who knows? Because maybe you answer it that way because you know something and you want to make sure the world knows. No blood on my eyes.

[Don Hahn]

The only thing he can do.

[Alan Rosenberg]

That's my guy.

[Don Hahn]

If you lose this series, we're fired.

[Alan Rosenberg]

I don't. I don't know. Again, I don't know. But these aren't conversations that. Those kind of conversations don't happen with people like me around, trust me.

[Don Hahn]

So. So you happen with Jaylen around. I can tell you that.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Of course. Which is why, again, he had to have known. But I will also say this. It had to mean something for them to eat $30 million. Three years. He was starting a three year extension next season. That's a. You're eating a ton of money.

[Don Hahn]

What are we.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But here's my question. How would they have gotten to this conclusion? What did in this off season, what did Tibbs do that in some way was beneath what the expectations were for him and this team? What was the highest expectation you had for the Knicks this year? Win the whole thing?

[Don Hahn]

No, I guess the expectation was to the conference final. I think they lived up to the expectation. The rub is we all thought Boston would be the team in the conference final, not Indiana.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So because you couldn't get past Indiana.

[Don Hahn]

Did all of a sudden all the expectations shift after they beat Boston?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, you know what it is.

[Don Hahn]

And now it's like, oh, Indiana we should go to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You want to know what it could be? And I know that Dolan has been keeping himself out of things recently, but he. Most people feel he got worked as a coach in that series. Is that, is that fair to say? A lot of people on the outside watching thought Rick Carlisle ran circles, but.

[Alan Rosenberg]

People thought exposed a lot of issues that they had in that series. They were uber prepared for the Knicks in this year.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So. So in other words, though, the coach who he went up against looked so on point and everyone could see it. Is it possible, Allen, that the brass did not like the optic of that? Like, wow, you just got. We loved you. You got us here, but you got so blatantly out. Coach, even if the Pacers are better than the Knicks guys, we would all agree it's slightly better. So maybe they were like this. You're more outmatched than we thought.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Did you understand, like, to do something like this after the best season in 25 years, reaching a point that no other coach has been able to help you reach since Jeff Van Gundy left, you have to have. Not just a reason why or. I'm fed up with it. Like, you can't. This is not an emotional decision. You're not doing this because you're pissed off. You do it because we got somebody better and we need to bring that guy up. I tell you, I firmly believe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, but what you're saying, Alan. I'm not saying you're wrong. But what Allen is saying is he.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Took as far as he could, but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A good, competent franchise would only do this, Allen, if they knew exactly what they were doing. Are you saying that?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Well, okay. Yeah, because people do do it. I want to do it. I want to make sure that. I'm also emphasizing Leon Rose has never given us a reason to doubt him when it comes to decisions.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not so far.

[Alan Rosenberg]

And Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau are very close, known each other forever. So this is not like, you know, warring factions in the front office. And they couldn't wait to get him out of here. This was a difficult decision to make, but one they felt they had to make. And the timing of it was important here, too, which is why I'm trying to piece it together.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So what is it?

[Alan Rosenberg]

They've got to. Well, right away.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But why?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Don't waste any time.

[Don Hahn]

But why?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Because there's gotta be one candidate that they want and they know they can get, and they can't wait for it.

[Don Hahn]

All right, but it better be that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It has to be that.

[Don Hahn]

It's gotta be somebody with experience, that it's a guy that will take the job. Yes, but what you're asking for. And again, I don't know how quickly you can turn this thing around. This tells me this was in the works way before Saturday.

[Alan Rosenberg]

So that's something it reeks of. This thing was hanging over and hanging over the whole time. And it's almost like 1999 when the Knicks in that run were flirting with Phil Jackson, who had left the Bulls.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Alan Rosenberg]

He had not taken a job that year. He was a former Knick. And the talk was, while Jeff Van Gundy, you know, is a nice coach and everybody loves him, Phil is one of the great coaches who won rings and we got to win a championship, and. And that's our guy. And they were targeting Phil Jackson and the fan base loved Jeff and they got to the finals and the players loved Jeff and Patrick Ewing back Jeff. And so they said, all right, well, Jeff's our guy. And Phil took the Laker job. And a lot of people thought Phil used the Knicks to leverage the Laker job, but still. The point is, it's the same thing. Although Jeff got them to the finals, it was almost impossible to move on from him. Tom didn't.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Alan Rosenberg]

But it feels like the same exact script.

[Don Hahn]

But this is not a case of, oh, we looked awful in game six. Let's go find another code.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, this is not a one off 48 hours. You're right.

[Don Hahn]

This. There had to be a seed planted. Maybe it was during the swoon in the second half of the season where. All right, guys, maybe this isn't working out. Let's start putting a list together of people that we want to talk to if this thing goes sideways. And. And now. And now the wheels are turning and then it's put to the side and then you get to the playoffs and then you're struggling at home against the Pistons. And then there's a real conversation that, hey, we're playing in Game 6 against Detroit. What if we lose this series? Let's get back to our list again. Who are we going to call if Thibodeau. Because we, you know, we lose to the Pistons, he's gone for sure. Then they probably shelved it during the Boston series. But then after the way they lose game one.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

And as the series starts to look like it's not going to happen for them. Down three one. You're revisiting again. The point is that list, that conversation about post tibs happened sometime during the course of the regular season. Whether it was real, whether it was imaginary. I think the wheels had to start turning then. And then it just became a reality. And there were probably times it looked like it was done, and then there were times that looked like, we're gonna have to revisit it because he might be able to keep his job. Cause let's face it, if they win games six and seven, then you're not firing a guy that comes back from three one down. You're going to see how what happens in the finals, and then it becomes a Jeff Van Gundy situation.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Let me tell you something.

[Don Hahn]

This had to been a conversation that goes back to the middle of the year.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah. And again, it's been a conversation we've had all season long. And I have, I have, I've Tried to convince myself and anybody listening that I feel like he is. There's no one more dedicated. This guy lived and breathed the job. He had a passion for it. It was personal for him. And those are things I had a great respect for. But you know what else I have a great respect for? An owner that is willing to eat $30 million because he's obsessed with ending this championship drought. He said, you got to convince a guy. You got to go up. You got to go up in that room and say, hey, by the way, I know there's a lot of money left on the contract, but we're trying to win a championship and this isn't a necessary move. And to think about it, to sit there and go, no, you wanted that contract. You make it work. No, it's like you. If you think that's what it's going to take to win, all I care about is winning. I'll eat the money. That's like, if anything, you got to feel like that's obsessed with winning a championship, no matter what the cost, even if it means eating a contract like that. But you, I'm so curious to see what's the answer to this. If this is an issue. Not enough. It didn't develop enough bench. Whatever it is that you want to talk about, Play the, played the starters too much, got out. Coach all those things. You certainly aren't bringing in a wet behind the ears coach. Has never done it before. No.

[Don Hahn]

This is no chance. This is going to be a coach that's going to also now. It's got to take a lot of money.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Got to be a coach with a resume and probably a ring. That's my guess.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. And.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, that's why even who it is, I don't know. That's why even as cute as the Jay Wright story is, it's still not enough. To me it's not. He's not some sure thing in the NBA. Why? Because he won titles in college with those players.

[Alan Rosenberg]

You're taking the Villanova thing to the end.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

You're taking.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're like, we love it so much. You don't even know if Bridges is going to continue to be a part of the Villanova thing. You're bringing in Jay Wright, we traded for Dante back again. I mean, let's calm down.

[Don Hahn]

And then you think about like with msg with the Rangers. Laviolette had another year left on his contract, ate that and then gave Sullivan the most money that any coach in the league is making. He's throwing a lot of Money around now, none of that counts towards the cap.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, but that's a guy.

[Don Hahn]

That's a guy. That's Will. He wants him gone. And whoever's coming in bad enough that he's willing to eat three more years.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Let me ask you, is Hal Steinman doing this?

[Don Hahn]

I don't think so.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No. This is the example of obsessed with winning.

[Don Hahn]

Look at Brian Cashman and Aaron Boone literally go to the last years of their contract before they're extended. It's almost like, you got to show me right to the end, I'm not eating any money. And that's their philosophy. But, you know, obviously Dolan is willing. Gallant had years left on his contract. Laviolette had a year left on his contract. You don't come coach in New York for free. You're getting paid. Sullivan's getting paid. This next guy that comes in to replace Tibbs is going to get paid.

[Alan Rosenberg]

And also kind of a lot of pressure because you got to do it, right? Not only do you have to do it, you also had, at worst, have a 50 win season. Right? Like, you can't have a. You can't. You can't be. You've got to have.

[Don Hahn]

In the east now with Boston with no Tatum, you're probably going to be expected to win.

[Alan Rosenberg]

The expectation is you got to step in here and get it done.

[Don Hahn]

Like one seed now you're going to win a championship. And, you know, somebody brought this up to me on my podcast, Game of Scandal. Wherever you get your podcast, there you go. Why are we so obsessed with getting coaches that won rings before when it's so hard to win championships in multiple places? Like, how many NBA coaches have won in multiple places? Phil Jackson. Did I get Pat Riley, right? No, Lakers did win with the Knicks.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Lakers.

[Don Hahn]

But he even coaches.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yes, he did.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, yeah. So that's two.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Oh, six.

[Don Hahn]

Who else? Like, we're always obsessed with going out and getting coaches to win multiple places. It doesn't happen very often. So even if you bring in somebody that's won before, doesn't necessarily mean they're going to join that very elite group of people that have done it. Think about it. In every sport. Well, in baseball, what was it most of the time?

[Alan Rosenberg]

When you win a championship as a coach, you're going to stay there for a long time. It's only recent that all these guys that win coach of the year get fired, like, within three years.

[Don Hahn]

But it's not a lot of guys. And you're right, the press pressure of having to deal with New York and the expectation, oh, take the next step, which is going to be a title. Playing in the NBA final and winning.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And winning the Finals.

[Don Hahn]

Well, that's interesting because we don't know what the Thunder are going to become, right? I mean, if the Thunder wiped the floor at the Pacers and they go out there and win 70 games next year, but you're realistic to think you've got to be. But you're not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're not hiring a coach, right? You're already now at the doorstep of the final.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Like I'm.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're not hiring a coach to get you one half step. You're hiring a coach to get you.

[Alan Rosenberg]

This is the guy that's supposed to put you over the top.

[Don Hahn]

But I'm just saying, from an expectation standpoint, nothing short of at least going to the NBA Finals. If the, if the, if the Thunder are like some forever team and you're losing seven, I think you can get up from that. If you get bounced in the second round or, God for missed the playoffs, forget it. You'll never live that down. But the expectation, I would think with how Cleveland was so banged up and maybe it was just a one off with them, with Boston, with Tatum missing pretty much all the season and their cap situation, the expectation is going to be for this new coach to win the conference of the regular season and at least go to the NBA Finals.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think so. Yeah. That's probably right. By the way, can we just. Can we just stop with the whole the respect stuff for Tibbs? I know you had to include that, but I'm sorry, After the kind of performance that this team just had, where the city was on fire for this team, and you go that far, and then within 48 hours, the guy's out on his ass. Let's. I get it, Alan. You have to write it. He ain't going to be part of the Knicks family. That ain't going to be some sweet way to go out. I mean, you never know how things are going to play out in the coming months and years. But I have to imagine this moment, Alan, he feels completely disgraced by that.

[Alan Rosenberg]

The job meant the world to him. This was. I can tell you that from a personal standpoint, this job was everything for him. This. This meant the world to have this job. You know, I'm curious to see where he goes from here. I have, just off the top of my head, I'm trying to scratch a couple of possible names. I'm not getting this from anyone. I'm trying to just scrape together names that would make sense of people that aren't currently working. And then there's, you know, like I said I would also. What would it take to get somebody out of their contract that would take this job? Because I think everything's on the table.

[Don Hahn]

All right, so what I need, I'm.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Trying to scrape together. I'm trying to scrape together like three, two, two to four names that I would say. These are names that I would consider putting on a list and saying, you know, which one of them would be the best fit.

[Don Hahn]

No. Well, but why don't you look at it this way? Forget about contract. Who would you want to coach this team?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, currently. Yes, of course. He's never going to be available, right? Steve Kerr, he's never going to be available. Ty, Luke, they're never making. Hey, he just signed a five year extension into the Clippers. He's not going anywhere. He's another guy, hands down. I'd take him in a heartbeat but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And does Michael Malone make sense?

[Alan Rosenberg]

He's a, he's a New York kid. He was an assistant coach here. His father was an assistant coach here. I don't know how his coaching wise.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Though, is he the right fit for this team?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Oh, like he's a guy. He's a guy for sure. I just don't know. I don't know how the Knicks would view him. I don't know how his. When he left here and the relationship and all that stuff after the fact. I don't know if about it. But I do know for him personally New York would, it's home for him. So I, you know, that's a name I would probably put on my list if it was me. But again I'm only doing this off the top of my head so we can, we can do that. Coming up.

[Don Hahn]

It's a shock.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Now quick question boys.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Sports center just asked me to come on at 6:30.

[Peter Rosenberg]

6:30.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Okay. I have a white T shirt on.

[Don Hahn]

But you look good. But it's a white T shirt.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Is that not right? Like Stephen A's got a sweat.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Sweat. No, no, but that's a black sweat away with. No, no, it's a black, It's a black crew neck.

[Don Hahn]

Can we maybe a sweaty. We're in the greatest city in the world.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, get this guy a shirt because, because at night it gets a little chilly. So I do have this. But it's just like a little zip up thing. It almost looks like I'm on the golf course.

[Don Hahn]

But they're gonna shoot you from your shoulders up Bro.

[Alan Rosenberg]

So should I tell them I'm good?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, you're good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Come on to the mothership or send someone to get a shirt for you.

[Alan Rosenberg]

You know I don't wear things off the rack. It doesn't really fit me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What do you gotta go to big and tall? Yeah, you can't get like an extra large shirt.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, doesn't fit.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What happens?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Usually it's like either the shoulders, it's a mess.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Really?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, it's not great.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's what it's like being six' six, huh?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah. Narrow doesn't help being narrow.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, six' six and narrow.

[Don Hahn]

This, this was not our bingo card today.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, I love it, but I gotta listen.

[Don Hahn]

The best part of sports talk radio is I can't tell you how many times we've had meetings, we've got the whole show planned and then five minutes before the show, something blows, you know?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Excited I was to start just digging into baseball.

[Don Hahn]

Hey, I was. I mean the Mets beat the Dodgers.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's right, I was, I was sitting.

[Don Hahn]

There rolling in it, you know, Yankees guardians. But no, this is like you dream about.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And now all of a sudden I'm stuck talking about this.

[Don Hahn]

Coach, come on now, certain things don't change the format. At 4:30 we got talk about a Tuesday.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Oh, we got to talk.

[Don Hahn]

And I got a few things. I got one specific I'm really bringing up. And then at six o'clock we've got Ian. It's a full vehicle today.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, it always is.

[Don Hahn]

Then Grot dan grass at 7 o' clock take you into Mets baseball at 9:30 Mets of the Dodgers game two of their four game set. But Tibbs is out of a job. I'm sure a lot of shocked. I'm sure a lot are happy. Come at me 1-800-919-3776. Don Hanan Rosenberg right here on 880 ESPN New York and the ESPN New York app.

[Alan Rosenberg]

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[Don Hahn]

And.

[Alan Rosenberg]

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[Don Hahn]

ESPN this is an ad by BetterHelp.

[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Unknown]

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[Alan Rosenberg]

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional. Just speaking into the Boyd. Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

All right, you heard from us. Let's hear from you. If you're just joining us, Tom Thibodeau out as head coach of the New York Knicks came down about an hour ago. And so now after going into Saturday feeling like, hey, this team has done some special things here, the city's alive. And now it almost feels like same old Knicks looking for a coach. And this is a very, very important hire. We talked about the important decisions. Do you trade Mitch and what do you do with Bridges contract? It all pales in comparison. And now who's going to coach this group of players? And now you wonder Allen, does this indicate that they are indeed going to roll it back? Because if they fired the coach, then it doesn't sound like they had any kind of problem with the roster because if it was a roster issue, the Tibs would still be here. So it was almost like, all right, we assess the problem. The problem's the coach.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah. It's almost suggested they wouldn't be making a big swing at Giannis.

[Don Hahn]

Right. That they're not making any kind of major roster.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Feels like that starting five is good enough. You got to build out the bench. But that's this, this team's good enough. And they feel like it's the approach. They needed a new voice, something, something to change whatever like they had built to this point. Now it's time for the new voice to take that whatever it is, the next step. I mean, you know, like Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr in Golden State. You did see that. That did happen. Doug Collins and that was a good team with, yeah, we have. He helped develop them and get them to that point. And then Steve Kerr got there just in time for it to hit.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's buck.

[Alan Rosenberg]

It's, it could be.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's, it's, it's, it's a situation which I always feel so bad show Walter.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Was so Young back then.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I know. Isn't that crazy? I swear, at the time, I thought he was 65 years old, but he's currently 65 years old.

[Don Hahn]

But it's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's. You do all of this to get a team there, and in this case, man, I can't just help but think about that shot from Tyrese Halliburton.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yep.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And if that shot that bounces up to the. To the 24 second clock, hits it and goes out of bounds instead, and they win game one, Don. And they win that series, you're telling me there's a chance he's fired if they make the finals, that couldn't be possible, right? Alan, is there a world in which they make the finals and he still would have gotten fired?

[Alan Rosenberg]

I said, I go back to, like, again, when van Gundy in 99, that whole playoff run was all about Phil Jackson hanging over the franchise because they made the trade for Latrell Sprewell. They had remade that. That team, they came out of a lockout, and that team kind of, like, sputtered throughout that season. It was a shortened season. They didn't really hit until towards the end. They both. They barely made the playoffs. They were the eighth seed. Yeah. They upset Miami. So the thinking was, well, they're the eighth seed. Miami's the number one seed. They'll lose in the first round. Jeff's out. You bring in Phil Jackson. Yeah, right. Because you're trying to win a championship. You're all in the money they spent on reworking that. That roster around Patrick Ewing. And it got to a point where the pace. I think it was in the Pacers Series or maybe in the Atlanta Series. That year, in 99, the Garden crowd started chanting Jeff's name. They would chant Jeff Van Gundy. They were chanting that. And it was almost like, well, you can't fire him now. He got him to the finals, and that's. And then the rest is history. And Phil took the Laker job. But.

[Don Hahn]

And the last time something like this happened in New York, guys, you go back to 2017 and Joe Girardi.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Game seven, league championship series. They lose, and the next thing you know, Aaron Boone's the new manager. Would they have been able to fire Girardi if they had gone to the World Series? If they won game seven, they lost that game two to one. They go to the World Series, they fire them, they win the World Series.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right. Everything changes now.

[Don Hahn]

Obviously, there were different things in play there. They wanted a different style, and baseball managers have gone away from the Joe Girardi type of model, right? But you have seen that before, and up until now, it really hasn't worked, right? And until last year when Boone finally got him to the World Series. So, you know, we've seen Gallant go after going to a conference final. However, it was the next year they lost to the Devils that they let him go. Laviolette, it was missing the playoffs. This year, you let him go. But the last time we saw somebody go this far in the postseason and lose their job, you got to go back to Joe Girardi. 1-800-919-3776, NAS in Pine Brook. You get us started here on Don Hahn and Rosenberg.

[Caller]

Hey, guys, I literally, I feel physically ill. I'm having a hard time focusing. You know, as a fan of this team. These are the things that butter my biscuits. You didn't even give us a chance to lick our wounds to heal. You put out this hypocritical statement filled with accolades. We want more. We deserve the why and who is next and why they are better and they are better choice and. But a coach that has proven himself and improved year after year, he finally has a roster. We can tweak some things. I just can't wrap my head around it. And Alan, before you accuse me of being emotional, which you have on other phone calls, sports is equal parts emotion and skill, right? And loyalty and all of that. So I'm just like, I'm beside myself. I don't even know what else to say except that I feel like Dolan, he deserved. We deserve more. We need to know more.

[Don Hahn]

I don't know if we'll ever find out. I mean, I guess when they hire the new coach, we'll start to be able to put pieces together what does this coach bring that Tibbs couldn't. Maybe there'll be questions to Leon Rose at the press conference, why this coach, but we may never get down to the bottom of exactly why.

[Alan Rosenberg]

I'm telling you what I've been told is the new voice. It just five years, it's just time for a new. A new voice and a change in. Not a change in philosophy, but a change in direction. And clearly, you know, he has gotten to this point where they have been very competitive. But the sense is, is that there was more. There was more to get out of this roster. That was the, that was the prevailing field. And you know what else, too? I don't think you do this without player input. And I know Jalen Brunson said what he said when he walked off the Podium.

[Don Hahn]

But they were also pissed.

[Alan Rosenberg]

But he's not the only voice. He's the captain, but he's not the only one.

[Don Hahn]

Bridges said during the season. Yeah, right.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Well, it's a lot of, like, what kind of response did they get from players when the season ended?

[Don Hahn]

Is anybody bigger than Brunson? Unless Brunson was full of it when he said what he said at the end of game six. Wouldn't he be bigger than what ten other guys think? All right. Also, conspiracy theory.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Sure.

[Don Hahn]

They want. Could there have been some information that they want to go after Giannis and Giannis has got a problem with Tibbs?

[Alan Rosenberg]

No.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Would Giannis fit with Tibbs?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah. I think Giannis is only on our radar. I don't think he's on the Knick radar. Okay, Well, I think the only way he gets on the radar is if Giannis comes out and says, or his tells his representation, I only want to play for the Knicks. We have to figure out a way to get me there.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Otherwise they wouldn't take it seriously.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Then. Then it's because I. From what I believe, they look at the roster, especially the starting five, as that's. That's a really good starting five, and it proved all year as a good starting five. Build out the bench with what they've got this off season and go back at it like that. That feels like the direction. And Don, you kept saying it about the Rangers. It does have that feel of what the Rangers did. Their core was their core. They put together a lot of talent, and they kept looking for the right coach to tap into that talent and take them as far as they could take them. And that's why Laviolette came in.

[Don Hahn]

But. But the core did change by getting rid of Randall and Hartenstein and DiVincenzo.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Core is still Brunson, dead center. Right.

[Don Hahn]

Okay, but. But, you know, look at. Ananobi's already been here for a little while.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, but that's. That's the. Yeah, it is the new core, but I. I think when you look at what they have in Jalen Brunson, that's a special of players this organization's had since Patrick Ewing. And so when you have something like that, it's the same thing as Ewing. You want to make sure you can get a championship while you got a player of that caliber. Like, I think we almost are taking for granted just how freaking good that guy is.

[Don Hahn]

I know.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Especially when it matters most. Clutch time and playoffs. He averaged 30 a game again in the playoffs.

[Don Hahn]

But you got to get this, this next coach higher, right?

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Don Hahn]

Because it's so much easier to just fall back.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Oh. Than it is more dangerous. But I tell you about the Jenga, like the wrong piece comes out of Jenga, the whole thing comes down. And that's, you know, again, Leon Rose has done enough in the last five years to give you this sense of you should be, you should believe in him. He knows a lot of people, so you should trust him. But there is always going to be apprehension from a fan because of history and what you see and that one wrong piece, the whole thing can come down. Mike Woodson was a terrific coach here. Phil Jackson came in, didn't even give him an interview. Got rid of him. Whole thing fell apart.

[Don Hahn]

All fell apart. So, you know, and then Laviolette came in for Galante out of three year contract because basically it was, you have a three year window to win.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

And now he's out of a job after not being able to. It's, it can all come apart. Joe and Yonkers, you're on. Don, Han and Rosenberg.

[Caller]

What's going on, guys? Always good to talk to you guys.

[Don Hahn]

What's up, bud?

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm just thinking like it was like one thing after another. Like, you know, Don, you, you had a good point when you said about that maybe they had a bench and they didn't use them enough. I think that was the key. And also what Bridges said during the season and whatnot. Like, I'm a big Knicks fan, you guys know that. Always calling. But it's like I'm not really even mad about the whole firing about Tibbs and what happened. It's just about like they, they, they should have beat Indiana. We all thought since they beat Boston, we were just going to run through them and whatnot. And then that first game and not shutting that down. That already happened one time when Luka was in Dallas and we had a big lead and he came through in like eight seconds and we lost the game. It's just like little things like that. And just this year was supposed to be our year. A lot of people say that, oh, that this probably going to be our best year. I beg to differ.

[Don Hahn]

I disagree with that, Joe. I think all anybody was asking for this year, I believe the ceiling was after the cat deal. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, get to the conference final. Now, obviously expectations change because that wasn't the opponent you thought it was going to be. Wasn't Boston, was Indiana? Were we talking championship in the first year or Was it, hey, at least let's get out of the second round. At least. Yeah, let's get to the conference final. Yeah, he did that.

[Alan Rosenberg]

The goalpost got moved.

[Don Hahn]

It did.

[Alan Rosenberg]

They got moved.

[Don Hahn]

It did. But let me ask you this. And it's not going to happen, but how is this gonna look if Indiana beats the Thunder? Think about it.

[Alan Rosenberg]

But I think that's.

[Don Hahn]

I think that all of a sudden now you lose to a patch.

[Alan Rosenberg]

I'm sorry. Those are isolated, Don. I smirked and I. Cause I get it. I get what you're saying. But I also know you don't make decisions like this based on one game or one series.

[Don Hahn]

No, I think this is something that clearly was building.

[Alan Rosenberg]

You heard it all year. Fans were talking about it, bloggers were blogging about it. Everybody was angry. Every single time this team lost a game, every single time they lost a game. The narrative the next day was, he's got to go. He's got to go. He's got to go. That is true. Never stopped. They could win three in a row, crickets lose one, he's got to go. It's all his fault. And so you just felt like there was just too much momentum going against him and there was only so much you could do to hold it off. The torches and pitchforks were out and it was enough to convince the front office, the ownership.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, we got on the air, we said, that's it. I got it. That's it. He did enough. It's over. There's no conversation. When I got the text today, when John Winthrop sent us the text that said, well, our open changed and guys, I thought we were being sports pickled. And I'm not like Captain Tibbs. I like Tibbs. I think he has upside. There is part of me that thinks he is one of those guys, you know, a bridesmaid, never the bride. I do think that's possible with him, but I'm still floored by this move.

[Don Hahn]

So to Alan's point, outside of winning an NBA title, maybe this was just inevitable. We are going to find a way to get rid of him. He shocked the world by beating Boston.

[Alan Rosenberg]

But it just blows my mind that you're talking about a three year extension that was only beginning next season. And we're going to. We're writing it off because that's how convinced and obsessed that organization and owner is to win. And also, like, it's almost like, and I'm sorry, Don, but it's like I just keep coming back to that. Like, it is incredible to think like I don't. What is it going to take to win? That's what it's going to take. Then let's do it. Let's do it. That's. I mean, Steve Cohen's the only other owner in this, in this market that would do that. Seriously, like, that's, that's as obsessed you can be with winning. And that's the one redeeming thing I keep coming away from is like, man, they really want to get this.

[Don Hahn]

But you can't do this without knowing who the next guy is. Because that's part of the process. Right. Because it's not. It's not just Tibbs can't do it.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

This next guy can't. There can't be. Now let's go look for the guy. You got to know who the guy is.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah. Who you getting? It's exactly it.

[Don Hahn]

Because you can't sit there and have nobody.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, you got to have.

[Don Hahn]

There's got to be somebody that they know that they're going to introduce. And it's just a matter of when.

[Alan Rosenberg]

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[Don Hahn]

This episode is brought to you by Stay Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

Nestled in the heart of the Riviera, Maya Fairmont Mayakopa offers a luxury escape like no other. Ideal for traveler seekers. A summer getaway. The stunning resort boosts or boasts pristine beaches, lush mangroves and world class amenities, including the award winning Fairmont Spa and and the World Class Golf Course, home to LPGA LIVE and PGA Tours. ESPN New York will be sending one lucky winner and guests to this all inclusive resort for seven days and six nights including round trip airfare, airport shuttles and a day on the golf course. For trip details and to enter, check out the ESPN New York app and find the Fairmont mea culpa tile to submit your entry. Other names being bandied about by some people Is Jason kidding? Former Nick Former NET he just signed.

[Alan Rosenberg]

An extension with the Mavericks last spring. So they'd have to work out something there where he, if he wants the job, he'd have to work out some type of a buyout release. But I don't know what to get out of that job. But he, well, we've seen, you know, how do you do things with the Mavericks? Demand the Knicks to, to trade a draft pick for him?

[Don Hahn]

Like there's a, you know, you want the guy. I mean you get, there's a lot.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Of coaches who currently have jobs that, that you'd love to do that again I mentioned Ty Lu, you know, like he's a terrific coach.

[Don Hahn]

When did he sign the extension? Kid.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Kid was last, I think last spring. Last spring. I thought, okay, signed an extension with the Mavericks if I'm not mistaken. I thought, I thought that that's what happened. But just it's May 6th, Jake saying yeah, okay, so it was last May.

[Don Hahn]

6Th of last year.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, and it was, it's a multi.

[Don Hahn]

Year extension, of course, but I guess any name. But I have to think that this is somebody that they've talked to that they know is going to take this job. You can't all of a sudden start hunting for the next better than Tibs and letting him go.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, there's, there's always that, you know, there's, there's a couple of options that we know we could discuss and they'd all, they'd all be guys that would fit.

[Don Hahn]

I know, I know baseball has it. Alan, does the NBA have a rule of not hiring coaches during the NBA Finals or making major major announcements?

[Alan Rosenberg]

I think it's something where it's just obvious you don't, you don't do it right. You know, but it doesn't mean you don't do it on an off day.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, you could do it on, I.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Think, in an off day.

[Don Hahn]

But the understanding you don't want to throw any shade to the finals. Like, wait. They could wait. They can wait till this is over.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, but if you got to do your.

[Don Hahn]

If this is.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean, this is pressing stuff, what do you. Is it really about, like, your politeness to the game, or you just don't announce it?

[Don Hahn]

You're saying you have it work? Well, first of all, you're not going to hold a press conference during the files. A lot of people are already going to be out at the files. You're not going to drag them back to New York to cover this. You wouldn't have the press conference until after the fact.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Before the draft. Keep it under your hat for that long. I doubt if these reporters are just too damn good to be able to hold it, but we'll see. Robin Nyack, you're on. Don on a Rosenberg.

[Caller]

All right, so first thing, like, I had a sad moment, man, because it's been so long, and Tibbs is going to be the guy who took us out of the gutter, you know, who really, like, turned things around officially, hopefully for us before. I do have a couple points. Alan, tell me, please, it's not Rick Brunson, right?

[Alan Rosenberg]

I have no idea. I have no. I can't. I can't say no to anything. I. It. Would it be surprising? It would be surprising, of course. But I'm not. I'm not saying anything because I'm gonna. I can't pretend I know something when I don't. I'm trying. I thought you might say that.

[Caller]

And I was hoping. I was hoping you were confident enough to give me a no on that one.

[Alan Rosenberg]

No, I'm not gonna say no to anything if I don't know for sure.

[Caller]

All right, so just a couple things here. I looked at when he kept this. The bench, players getting minutes. That second game, I think it was maybe game four. That, to me, was almost like an admission of, oh, shoot, you know, maybe I could have done this. And when I look back at that Detroit series, it seems almost like negligent that you would have had your starting five taken such a beating in such a physical series for all those big minutes, only to find out, hey, we might have gotten through that a little easier and a little easier on their bodies if you let some of these guys in. And the other thing, I don't want to hear about towns footwork. There's basic functions of a job. If you can't get offensive players like Brunson and Towns to work out a pick and pop, a pick and roll for the occasional easy bucket. Easy look, that's, that's a major issue. None of us could do that. None of us could have a fundamental element of our job and say, hey, we just can't work it out. So I'm surprised, but I'm not shocked.

[Don Hahn]

And it's a good call.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Yeah, I hear you, Rob. Thank you. Holding players accountable was one thing that among the reports was one of the frustrations is being able to challenge players. And you remember he was very tough in Minnesota and Chicago, and he's really backed off of that. And perhaps now he's maybe backed off too much. You know, who knows?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I want to, I want to throw something out there. Yes, it's a big question. It may be a question that's a little uncomfortable for everybody to answer because of certain relationships, but it's a scary question that deserves to be asked when it comes to this team. And I'm going to ask it on the other side of this break.

[Alan Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how to say sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.