Hour 1: Tweak vs Tear Down

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast Summary
Episode: Hour 1: Tweak vs Tear Down
Release Date: June 2, 2025

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Introduction to the Season's End

Don LaGreca [00:52]:
The hosts kick off the episode by addressing the disappointing end to the Knicks' playoff run. After harboring hopes for a game seven at Madison Square Garden, the Knicks were eliminated in six games by the Pacers. Don highlights the team's consistent pattern of a strong start followed by a mid-game collapse, particularly noting the Pacers' dominance in the third quarter.

Analyzing the Knicks’ Performance

Alan Hahn [03:24]:
Alan delves into the Knicks' performance issues, emphasizing the importance of the third quarter as the "coach's quarter." He explains how halftime adjustments should set the tone for the second half, but the Knicks failed to capitalize on this, leading to their downfall.

Notable Quote:
"The third quarter is considered the coach's quarter because you make your halftime adjustments and then you set the tone."
– Alan Hahn [03:24]

Coaching Responsibilities and Front Office Decisions

Don LaGreca [04:31]:
Don questions whether the coaching staff should be held accountable for the Knicks' inconsistent performances. He discusses the possibility of changing coaches but ultimately leans towards trusting the current coach, Tibbs, suggesting that minor tweaks rather than a complete overhaul are necessary.

Alan Hahn [05:20]:
Alan concurs, noting that while the season ended on a bitter note, the overall performance included significant achievements like beating the defending champions. He stresses that the team's shortcomings are more about how the season concluded rather than the entire journey.

Fan Sentiment and Management Trust

Guest [05:20]:
A caller discusses the mixed feelings among Knicks fans, debating whether to retool the team or pursue large-scale changes. This sparks a broader discussion on fan frustration and the desire for both immediate success and future potential.

Don LaGreca [07:57]:
Don expresses his belief in Leon Rose and the front office, advocating for patience and strategic adjustments. He emphasizes that the team needs to focus on minor roster tweaks rather than drastic changes.

Notable Quote:
"If I'm a Knick fan, I say, you know what? I believe in Leon Rose. Whatever he thinks is the thing to do, I'm with it."
– Don LaGreca [17:08]

Player Focus: Jalen Brunson

Peter Rosenberg [19:16]:
Peter champions Jalen Brunson, asserting that Brunson is an elite performer capable of leading the Knicks to a championship with the right supporting pieces. He argues against the notion that Brunson’s size limits his potential, highlighting his impressive playoff performances.

Alan Hahn [23:28]:
Alan addresses the skepticism around Brunson's ability to be a "1A" player, comparing him to legends like Steph Curry and Isaiah Thomas. He acknowledges Brunson's scoring prowess but emphasizes the need for complementary players to maximize his impact.

Notable Quote:
"He (Jalen Brunson) is the guy that you can build around to win a championship. He's a winner at heart."
– Alan Hahn [23:28]

Historical Comparisons and Player Size Debate

Don LaGreca [32:00]:
Don shares his philosophy that having a smaller lead player typically hinders a team's championship prospects, citing historical figures like John Stockton, Allen Iverson, and Steve Nash. He acknowledges exceptions like Steph Curry but maintains that size often plays a crucial role in winning titles.

Alan Hahn [33:05]:
Alan counters by pointing out that the current NBA landscape is more conducive to smaller stars excelling, attributing recent championships to versatility and shooting prowess rather than just size.

Notable Quote:
"If your best player is small, you're not winning."
– Don LaGreca [32:01]

Roster and Trade Considerations

Don LaGreca [36:10]:
Don advocates for using losses as learning opportunities, comparing the Knicks to a race car that needs adjustments to perform optimally. He suggests that the Knicks should focus on strategic tweaks to improve rather than making sweeping changes.

Alan Hahn [38:25]:
Alan emphasizes the need for reliable bench players who can support the starters effectively. He discusses the importance of having versatile and dependable players to maintain the team’s competitiveness throughout the season.

Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

Don LaGreca [35:19]:
Don concludes by reinforcing the idea that the Knicks have a solid foundation but require specific adjustments to reach their full potential. He stresses the importance of learning from this season's shortcomings to build a stronger team for the future.

Alan Hahn [36:37]:
Alan echoes Don’s sentiments, highlighting the necessity of adding depth and reliability to the roster. He compares the team's situation to NASCAR, where continuous adjustments are key to winning races.

Notable Quote:
"You have to learn how to avoid that stuff. You have to make adjustments."
– Alan Hahn [35:19]

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Conclusion

In this episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg, the trio provides a comprehensive analysis of the Knicks' playoff exit, focusing on coaching strategies, player performance, and roster management. They advocate for strategic tweaks over drastic changes, emphasize the importance of building around key players like Jalen Brunson, and discuss historical perspectives on player size and team success. The discussion underscores the need for patience and thoughtful adjustments to propel the Knicks toward future championships.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "The third quarter is considered the coach's quarter because you make your halftime adjustments and then you set the tone."
  – Alan Hahn [03:24]

• "If I'm a Knick fan, I say, you know what? I believe in Leon Rose. Whatever he thinks is the thing to do, I'm with it."
  – Don LaGreca [17:08]

• "He is the guy that you can build around to win a championship. He's a winner at heart."
  – Alan Hahn [23:28]

• "If your best player is small, you're not winning."
  – Don LaGreca [32:01]

• "You have to learn how to avoid that stuff. You have to make adjustments."
  – Alan Hahn [35:19]

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the meaningful discussions and analyses provided by Don LaGreca, Alan Hahn, and Peter Rosenberg.

Transcript

[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

Han, there's a lot of women out there that want you.

[Alan Hahn]

Alan and Rosenberg.

[Guest]

Give me the porn. For God's sake.

[Don LaGreca]

This isn't North Dakota. This is New York.

[Alan Hahn]

This is Don, Han and Rosenberg. The best threesome I've ever heard on 8, 80, ESPN and the ESPN New York app.

[Don LaGreca]

Certainly not the Monday we were hoping for. We went into the weekend hoping we'd have a game seven to get you set up for at Madison Square Garden. Instead, we're moving on to the off season as they end their run in six games in the Eastern Conference finals to the Pacers losing on Saturday in a game that, you know, the Pacers are up pretty much the whole game. But much like what we've seen in these players, third quarter swoon to start the second half and just never recovered. I'm going to ask it just because we do it, but how are you boys?

[Guest]

Oh, hey, how you doing? I gotta ask you a question. So I was at the wedding, as I told you guys I would be. And I'm watching the game on my phone, so I'm being that guy. Phone's open on my table, leaning against the water glass. Everyone knows my job. It is what it is.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Guest]

But let me ask you this, because I watched it in a way that was a bit disconnected. I felt like for the first half, I don't hate this.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Guest]

I like where I like.

[Alan Hahn]

You're 100% right.

[Guest]

Is that. Is that how everyone felt?

[Alan Hahn]

That's. That was. The feeling was you took that punch early and hung in. And by, like, late second quarter, I'm like, this. This is fine.

[Guest]

Just, we're right where we could be.

[Alan Hahn]

Closing the half is always a thing. They're still down 4, and you're in a good spot. And everything was about make sure, oh, yeah, that you come out in the third quarter just like game five where you are locked in and they were not 20 to nine run night, night.

[Don LaGreca]

And because you like the Knicks when it's close. Right. As long as they keep hanging around, you give me the last couple of minutes and I'm within striking distance and Brunson takes over, you're in good shape, but. And that's why we always circle back and we're going to take Your calls at 1-800-919-3776, therapy as we start to figure out how we can avoid this from happening again and to take the next step. But just to get out in front, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people, they're going to want to see the coach be changed.

[Alan Hahn]

I.

[Don LaGreca]

We don't share that opinion. But to play devil's advocate, based off of what we just talked about, isn't that a coaching thing? Allen, when consistently you come out of the half and it's cost you games, it cost you game four.

[Alan Hahn]

Yep.

[Don LaGreca]

As you said, the end of the second quarter, was it a 6, 0 run followed by a 7, 0 run to start the third quarter. That was game, set, match.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don LaGreca]

Similar situation here. You're hanging around, you're hanging around. It's a four point game at the half and then bang, it's blowout city. Next thing you know, you're down 15 and you never again. Isn't that a coaching issue? Isn't that where great coaches at the half get their team ready for the second half? Or am I mistake?

[Alan Hahn]

No, I think you heard me say this before. The third quarter is considered the coach's quarter because you make your halftime adjustments and then you set the tone. The players go out and they should be locked in with the game plan of what you want to do. All right, we have the ball to start or we're on defense to start. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're looking for. That is the coach's quarter. And so, yeah, like when the team comes out and they're flat, or when they come out and the offensive strategy fails, it does fall on the coach. It falls on the entire coaching staff. But that's in the regular season. I gotta be honest with you, when you are in the Eastern Conference finals and it is game six and you know that these quarters have been an issue. In fact, you know it so well that in game five, what did the captain do? Scored 14 points.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Captain came out, made the first shot of the second half and he made sure that, that the Pacers weren't gonna make their Push there. Right?

[Don LaGreca]

Mm.

[Alan Hahn]

So you're hyper aware of this issue. I don't think you need anybody to tell you there's not a single guy that walked out on that court that needed to be told, hey, don't forget. It's important to get off to a good start here. It's a bit of an issue for us. No one needed to be told that. They're all aware of it, but it still happened. And so that feels more like a collective concern. And it, it continues to be part of the things that we're going to nitpick about this roster and this team from top to bottom and see what they do in the off season to fix a lot of the issues that we have that we were exposed in this year.

[Guest]

Oh, man. And I wonder right now what the purveying feeling is among Knicks fans. Is it, hey, let's, let's, let's just see what we can do, you know, retool a bit, we'll draft, we'll see what happens next year. Or do more fans want a sort of market, large scale change again going into next year?

[Alan Hahn]

No, there's, there's, there's a lot of levels of frustration. And it's also, what is the feeling of, like the way that game ended, the way that game went, made the end of the season feel more frustrating than the whole season should feel. Like it's the last memory, it's the last emotion you had, which is the constant, why the hell, like, what the hell? Like, it's just, you're just the anger that built up in a lot of fans watching that towards the end, once that thing really unraveled in the fourth quarter. And that's, that's the last emotion you have. So you're, you're, you're stuck with this feeling of that sucked this season sucks, but it didn't suck.

[Guest]

No.

[Alan Hahn]

And anybody that thinks this season was a failure, you're not paying attention. Oh, because you beat the defending champions that you weren't supposed to beat and you beat him.

[Guest]

And don't forget, and you beat him. You pretty beat him without. With Tatum.

[Alan Hahn]

No, no, just to hit him.

[Guest]

You beat them with Tatum.

[Alan Hahn]

You beat him with Tatum.

[Guest]

Like those games one and two, you stole games.

[Alan Hahn]

Yes.

[Guest]

So.

[Alan Hahn]

But you still did. You, you had the ability to do it. So all I'm saying is back to back 50 win seasons to all NBA players, two All Star starters, and you get to the conference finals and you beat the nemesis. You did the defending champions, all those things did happen. But the way it ended. I used the season felt bittersweet because of how it ended.

[Don LaGreca]

And it's not just how it ended on Saturday. It's just that everybody built up in their mind that they're going to walk all over the Pacers. They beat the big, bad Boston Celtics, we killed our monster, and now we're just going to cruise. Because I don't think the fans would be that upset if they got, you know, if they lost Oklahoma City. I think people have accepted the fact that Thunder are a better team. Nobody even wanted to acknowledge the fact that the Pacers were anything right. And now you built up in your mind, now we're going to the NBA Finals for the first time since 1999, and we didn't. And now that's the lasting memory. But maybe you need to evaluate and say, well, maybe we disrespected the Pacers. Maybe the Pacers were better than we gave them credit for. Yes. They only won 50 games, and we.

[Alan Hahn]

You're talking about is the fans.

[Don LaGreca]

The fans, yeah. And that. Listen, I picked the Pacers in six for that reason. I felt like everybody's looking past this team. Have you seen the way they played since January 1st? Have you seen the way they played the first two rounds of the playoffs? And even though they don't have household.

[Alan Hahn]

Names, they made a mockery of the cavs, who won 60 games.

[Don LaGreca]

Right now, the Cavs were banged up and anybody was going to beat the Bucks. The Bucks weren't that great of a team. But you still have to respect the fact that they only lost two games going in, and that whether they're the better team or they played better, the fact is they're way better than anybody gave them credit for, especially the fans. And things happen. Sometimes the best team doesn't win the series. Maybe the Knicks aren't as good as you thought. Maybe he was a lot more evenly matched, which is probably the truth, and than people gave a credit for, and they happen to lose. This is year one of this regime, which was, by the way, this team was put together to beat the Celtics. What did they do? They beat the Celtics. If this team had lost to the Celtics in the conference final, it should actually hurt worse because this team was built to beat Boston. Indiana wasn't on anybody's mind. Well, now Indiana is on their mind. So I think it just takes a couple of tweaks, in my opinion. I would not blow this up now. If Giannis falls in their lap, I'm not kicking him out of bed, but I don't Think you have to do a ton. I want to see what Cat and Brunson could do in year two. I want to see what this team can do making tweaks to the bench. All those guys are free agents. They're going to be able to get better guys coming off the bench.

[Alan Hahn]

You hope so.

[Don LaGreca]

You know, do they. Does Mitchell Robinson get a chance to be on this team healthy or is he a trade piece? I think that could be somebody you can move and get something for because I don't know if it's going to get any better than it is right now to possibly trade him. Let Leon Rose and his brain trust who we actually feel good about, tweak this team, not blow it up. And for God's sakes, don't fire the coach. Was. Was he outmatched in the conference final? Yeah, possibly. He might have been out coached. I'll give you that.

[Alan Hahn]

Game one. But game one is the game that makes you crazy because they were home with a double digit lead in the fourth quarter.

[Don LaGreca]

That was bad.

[Alan Hahn]

That's the game that just. I get like that that game will keep him up all summer. Will not be able to get over that game.

[Don LaGreca]

But is there shame? How do you. Is there shame? I heard a caller with Michael. He got out coached by Spoelstra. He got out coached by Carlisle. Is that the worst thing in the world? These are two really good coaches. Spoelstra is a forever coach. Carlisle's kind of on his way to being that. He's. And when he. And when he faced, I think somebody that was lesser than him in Boston, he. He wiped the floor with him. Right. Clearly that wasn't a problem. You don't necessarily need the best coach to win. If you've got the best team, then I think you have a chance. You don't want an incompetent coach.

[Alan Hahn]

But if.

[Don LaGreca]

Would you be comfortable winning a championship at Tibbs is like the fifth best coach in the league or the fourth best coach in the league. And that's even debatable.

[Alan Hahn]

All I got to tell you is Mike Budenholzer won a championship. I know he was coach of the year, but like, was he ever somebody that you thought of? This guy's a savant. No, he's a good coach, but it's. I think we just look for reasons to blame. And you heard a lot of the guys say Brunson said it too. The worst part of this experience is having to go through losing to figure out how to win, have your weaknesses exposed to figure out how to cover them up.

[Don LaGreca]

That's it, right?

[Alan Hahn]

Like, that's the whole idea of this. This is part of the. This is part of the process to get there. The window's not closed, but I'm with you. The honest thing's very tempting, but it's almost impossible to do without help, right? He's got to tell Milwaukee, I want to be traded and I'm only going to resign with one team. Whoever else trades for me, I'm going to walk in two years. I'm not signing extension. There's only one team that I will sign an extension with. I want to go to New York. I want to play for the Knicks. I watch them on this playoff run. I think I can put them over the top, right? That's the only way it happens. And I don't know if he's really willing to do that. I don't know if he's even interested in doing that. I'm just saying for those who want to make that, this is the, you know, my big fat Greek summer. This is not going to be that unless he's the guy that comes forward and makes it clear there's only one place I want to go. I could take that team over the top. Then you're all in. But if not, you got to look at this group and say, we got the coach to buy into depth. Finally convince them, play more guys, it's a better idea. Now what you do is you upgrade the guys that off the bench for him to trust you, give him a couple of vets who've been there, done that, some brand new, it's hard to find. But these are guys that might also like Yan. Look at the Knicks. Watch them in this run and go, I can help them. I'm not a starter anymore in this league, but I can help them. And I might even take a veterans minimum or whatever it is. I might to go there and get a shot of the ring in New York. Yeah, I might do that. Like that's what you're looking to see. What happened?

[Don LaGreca]

Like a big team.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, seriously though, but what does this run create for the Knicks when it comes to. Is. Is anybody. Was anybody watching that? We don't know about that. Just was like, I want to help that team.

[Don LaGreca]

I think I can help that team. Give Tibbs credit for making this now a destination because now they're playing in games where people are watching and say, I want to play with that team. And then if he's given a team that looks like it's championship caliber and he doesn't win then we can have that conversation. Otherwise you look, it's littered through sports. Andy Reid can't win in Philadelphia. He's not a coach. He can't win a Super Bowl. He'll get you there, but he can't win. Then you give him the right team in Kansas City. Now he can't stop winning. Right. I look at Paul Maurice in Florida, you're a hockey guy. He was the youngest coach in the history of the NHL in Hartford, 28 years old. Then they moved to Carolina. They go to a Stanley cup final, they get destroyed by Detroit.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Don LaGreca]

Loses in Toronto. Everybody loses in Toronto. Right. Goes to Winnipeg. Resigned in Winnipeg because he felt like there was nothing left. He can do with that team. Then he goes to Florida. You think people were having a parade when they hired him in Florida, like, oh, we're going to win a championship now. And now he's considered one of the great coaches again. Can't help but win now. Right, because he's got a team that he can work with. You got to ask yourself, has Tibbs been given a championship caliber team? And if the answer is yes, well, then I can understand. You may be in a little disappointed. I think this team needs a little bit more.

[Alan Hahn]

They knew it. Seasoning they coming into the season.

[Don LaGreca]

We said it all year, they knew it about this year until all of a sudden it became about this year.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, because the opportunity was there.

[Guest]

But let me ask you this though. Does Carlisle have a championship caliber team?

[Alan Hahn]

Yes.

[Guest]

You think so?

[Alan Hahn]

Well, because they're in the finals, but.

[Guest]

Right, but are they much more talented than the six team? If they're more talented, it's negligible.

[Alan Hahn]

You know what they have out Coach.

[Guest]

Tibbs in the series. That did happen.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, he. Yeah, it started with him exposing all the weaknesses of the Knicks. He exposed them all. So yeah, he knew exactly what. It's almost as if they watched the Boston series, saw them go 20 and said, we're not even going to bother with Boston. We are preparing for the Knicks. And they spent the whole time preparing for that team as if they knew it was coming. And they had it all laid out and it took the next three games to figure it out. And then they won two out of. They won two out of three, got themselves kind of back into the series in game six. They got completely run out. Run out the gym in the second half.

[Don LaGreca]

Yep.

[Alan Hahn]

Which is expected when you, when you give a game one like that. They looked like they were. They were prepared for this team and knew exactly what to do to expose their weakness. And there was very little the Knicks could do once that was exposed. But when you look at the Pacers, they are a step ahead right now. They have the continuity. They have been together now for a couple years, that group, they have not made any changes to that team. And they went through the heartbreak last year being embarrassed in the conference final. Last year, after beating the Knicks, they were embarrassed by Boston. They gave away the first game and then they were embarrassed, but they stayed. Did not blow that team up. Actually, if you go back and Bobby Marks said this, when the Pacers lost to the Celtics in the conference finals last year, Pacers fans wanted Carlisle out. They wanted to trade everybody. This ain't working. They need more talent. Siakam's not the guy. Right. Like, all that stuff really did happen because they traded for Siakam in season last year, just like the Knicks traded for Anunoby. So give them a whole off season to prepare and a whole year to prepare, and they got off to a bad start. Keep that in mind, too. The patients weren't good early in the year, but once it clicked, they were a house on fire. And that's how they got to the Finals. Sometimes it's just continuity, patience, and just a little piece here and a little piece there. I will warn everyone, when you get to the point where the Knicks get. And I know it's going to sound weird to say to go from suck to this is easy, you get a guy, you get people that can get you organized, you get the right kind of talent, and. And you just start to win. But the hard part is now when you get to the point where you're a very good team to get to great, that's the toughest step. And one false move can knock you back to suck faster than you can get to win.

[Guest]

That's true, but the right move.

[Alan Hahn]

All right, that's my point. So this is a delicate time. How much do you trust Leon Rose and his front office?

[Don LaGreca]

And that's the thing that you should trust. Like, if I'm a Knick fan, I say, you know what? I believe in Leon Rose. Whatever he thinks is the thing to do, I'm with it. And I think he is. I think the roster that he's put together, what he did last year and how it ended up working by beating Boston, tells me he deserves that chance to tweak this roster. I don't, but Giannis makes it interesting. Giannis makes it interesting for any team. Right, because he's that great a player. Yes, but Outside of that, I think there's some tweaks.

[Alan Hahn]

Maybe, maybe, you know, I'm looking for bench guys. I'm looking for high quality bench players to that. That the. Hey, the head coach can't look down and go, I don't trust. Like, I'm not playing him. No, no. I'm playing like, I need a brand name or two later in his career that still has something left. Give me something like that.

[Don LaGreca]

And he's got no choice to address that because all those guys are free agents.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don LaGreca]

But the two things that I think he has to really worry about as far as what's on this current roster is what does he do with Bridges and what does he do with Mitch.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Don LaGreca]

Those are the two decisions, especially Bridges, because he's.

[Alan Hahn]

He's going to be doing extension.

[Don LaGreca]

And I think that's. We'll get into that as the day goes on, as the days go on, as they Prepare for the 2526 season. But it's about you right now at 1-800-919-3776. Let's start it off in Harlem. Got another thing going on. We're not getting into that. What's up, Peter?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, what's up? How are you?

[Don LaGreca]

Good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't believe Tibbs should be fired at all. Okay. I think in the beginning of the season, the question was, are you going to beat the Boston Celtics? And they did that. Now, again, like you guys said, I think if you set him down and said, what bench pieces do you need that he can trust down the line, I think it makes a ton of difference. I think those pieces were kind of just thrown in and he was just like, work with what you got. But again, if you give it an extra year and you give him, let's say, a defensive bench, hypothetically speaking, I think it changes the whole narrative of the next season.

[Alan Hahn]

That's got to be the next step. You built out a starting five that was, you know, one of the highest scoring starting fives in the league. What you have to do now is build out your bench and that whether, I mean, you could even do it like this. Move Josh Hart to the bench full time now and put him up as a guy that with the way he produces as a starter, he could be a six man of the year candidate. A guy that gets 10 rebounds a game, a guy that can get to double doubles, sometimes even triple doubles. A guy like that, you don't always have six man of year doesn't have to be the guy that averages the most points off the Bench. It could be a guy that's the most effective player off the bench.

[Don LaGreca]

But did that turn out, having him start.

[Alan Hahn]

Having him who start hard. Hard. Well, no, that was having.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah. Having Mitch start over hard.

[Alan Hahn]

No, it was in the middle of a series. It was difficult, like, to do, but he ended up still playing same rotation kind of thing. But all I'm saying is if you wanted to get a piece that could start for you that is a better fit as a starter, maybe a wing that could shoot or whatever it is you want to like. The point is, is that improving your bench could be getting a starter and moving one of your starters to the bench. Improving your bench is having Mitchell Robinson available all season. And if you don't think you can rely on him to be available all season, then like you said, then you probably got to explore trades because you're worried about his. Because you need somebody that you can depend on to back up Carl Anthony Towns.

[Don LaGreca]

Because now you could strike all the iron. Todd.

[Alan Hahn]

Because if you wait, oh, he's got value. Major value.

[Don LaGreca]

Then the value goes down. That's right. Wait, so that's why it's a difficult decision.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, it is.

[Don LaGreca]

Nick and Woodbridge, you're on. Don Han and Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hey, guys, thanks for taking the call. It's just funny. I was talking to my buddy about this, how expectations changed multiple times throughout this season. Like going into the year, the cat deal gets made and you're trying to preach patience, right? Year one, they need time to gel. Like, this is not going to be an instant run to the Finals. Then halfway through the year, three quarters of the way through, you're like, all right, Cleveland's the real deal. But I still worry about Boston. We're probably going to get knocked out by them. Well, then we beat Boston, and now it's like, well, we're going to the Finals, right? Like that was the sentiment. Because, Don, you're spot on. Like, everybody I was talking to, they all said the same thing. Nobody feared Indy. We wanted that rematch we lost last year, and it was because we got hurt, not because they were better. Well, this year they were better. But for me, I truly think the Knicks will win. With Jalen Brunson, he just cemented his legacy. For me personally as a 1A superstar, I firmly believe with the right pieces around him, the Knicks at some point will get to the promised land and win a championship. I think he is an elite performer in the postseason, but you are not going to win a championship with that type of defensive effort. And with him and cat both on the floor at the same time. You need pieces around him that can step up defensively and they got exposed. Drop coverage is a real issue. Defending the three was a real issue. It sucks, man. It sucks that they, they couldn't overcome Game 1, but I feel good about the direction of this franchise.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah, I think you should. Thanks for taking a call and thank.

[Alan Hahn]

You for everything he brought. He said he said a lot there, but there's one thing that he said that's an interesting conversation going forward. He believes Jalen Brunson is a 1A because that's, you know, that's something that gets tossed around a lot too. You know, he's under 6, 3, last, last player that height to lead a team to a championship. Isaiah Thomas. So there's this thought of a guy like that at his size can't be a lead dog on a championship team. Nick said he believes he can be. I do too, because I don't think it's about the size of the player. Guy's averaging 30 a game in his playoff career.

[Don LaGreca]

And what else do you mean? What else do you want to do?

[Alan Hahn]

He needs, look, Steph Curry without Klay Thompson and Draymond Green is just a good player, right? But he's not what he is because those guys make him better. So that's the question is, is the right pieces around Jalen Brunson? Is there enough? But I believe he's the guy that you can build around to win a championship. He's a winner at heart. How many other people believe that too?

[Guest]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Guest]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Alan Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don LaGreca]

So during the meeting Alan was talking about how fans are getting on Brunson. You can't win with Brunson. He's too small to win. And that Brunson has to understand it doesn't matter how many MVPs he wins, how great he is in the regular season. In this town you got to win. So I said to Allen, well does he know about Aaron Judge? And you said he's all he knows. Well aware that Yankee fans don't care about the MVPs. They don't care about the home run titles, they don't care about the records they just want to see the team team win the chip. But here's the difference. Alan Brunson brings it in the postseason. He's averaging 30 points in the playoffs. Judge hasn't. So I'm not saying Judge deserves the abuse, but I kind of see it because he has been a shell of himself in the postseason where Brunson has been even bigger in the postseason than he's been in the regular season. So he doesn't deserve the comparison because even though he hasn't won yet either, can't blame it on him. I mean, he's averaging 30 points a game. But I still, you know, I'm hearing people while they were better when he was on the bench, but they got to stop, man, because this guy's bringing it. He's putting the numbers up.

[Alan Hahn]

Still saying it's the same perspective, though, the idea that, okay, so maybe Judge doesn't put up the numbers in the postseason, but he puts up the numbers in the regular season, he gets all the accolades. So Brunson does bring it in the postseason at a level that we haven't seen a New York Nick bring it ever. Like, think about in franchise history, right? He's doing like, that's what he's doing.

[Don LaGreca]

But it's still playoffs.

[Guest]

You mean generally speaking.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, in playoffs. Okay, yeah, like the numbers tell you like, he is, he is one of the most prolific performers in Nick playoff history. But wins are all that matters to fans. So you said this about Soto. So if Judge has a brutal October and the Yankees win the World Series, the fans give a crap that Judge didn't have that. Judge has an MVP season, but is so, so during the playoffs. But the Yankees win the World Series. It's not talked about nearly as much as they lost. And now we have some again, we always have to blame somebody. It's always someone's fault. It's easy to point to Judge. Conversely, Brunson has a prolific playoff run with epic big time plays, game winners, dagger shots, all that stuff. But in an important game, he gets bottled up, a defense that locks him up, controls him, and he can't be the superhero one more time. And it's that you can't win with this guy, right? But look at them picking on him. Defensively, you find fault with him. And so he can't win. You can't win because he's too small.

[Guest]

You can't win, Rock.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, well, that's. But that's what people need, some reason. And you said it rather than say, you know, the Pacers are Just really good. No, unacceptable. My team just wasn't good enough. And there's. There's blame to be given out, and it's gonna start with the most important people.

[Don LaGreca]

And also, and I've told you this, the cheat code of being a talk show host is find something that you know that there's almost no shot of you being wrong, but say it. A declarative statement. This will never happen. Make sure it's something that probably won't happen. The jets will never win a Super Bowl. Be like, that's. I'm in pretty good shape. Right.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Don LaGreca]

Colin Cowherd made a cottage industry of saying, Carmelo Anthony's never going to win a championship. Well, he's at the end of his career. He's on the Knicks. Knicks haven't won him forever. Yeah, it's not really exactly that small.

[Alan Hahn]

Limb you're on as the main guy.

[Don LaGreca]

So I could say, oh, well, Brony, not going with Brunson again. The Knicks haven't won since 73, and it's hard. Have you heard, ever heard anybody that you would actually care about their opinion say, Yankees will never win with Judge. They won't say that because there's a very good possibility that they will win because it's the Yankees. And you know, at some point, you figure it's going to happen. It's, hey, good on the people that say that because maybe they'll be right, but they won't make that declarative statement because you know what?

[Alan Hahn]

That's. That's a.

[Don LaGreca]

That's a dicey limb to be on.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don LaGreca]

Because the Yankees, they always figure it out. They'll kind of. They'll figure it out at some point. He's that good. But saying that, you know, Brunson's not going to win a championship. It's not exactly a twig that you're standing on. All right. Knicks haven't won in a long time. They've got. It's a tough path to go through, but you're going to probably hear less and less of that as time goes on because it's becoming more and more of a reality. Remember, those are statements that he was too small to win a championship. They were. They were said when he got here. They were said last year. You heard less and less of it as they were when they beat the Celtics. I didn't hear a peep. Then all of a sudden they start losing to the Pacers, and then it comes back out again. Did you hear it after they lost? They beat the Pace, The Celtics?

[Alan Hahn]

No, no, all you heard real every.

[Don LaGreca]

Reason I better back off on this because they're going to be playing the Thunder for the championship.

[Alan Hahn]

Becky Hammond, remember two years ago, and she's the one that. It was a year and a half ago, like, she's the one that declared this about Brunson. This is where the narrative began about how, you know, he can't really be a 1A.

[Don LaGreca]

They're not getting into that tier. They don't have enough personnel. They don't have the manpower that they need to hang with those guys. I think you're going to get a consistent team like they've been. They're pretty good team. They're. They're well coached. They're going to be on their defensive game. But at the end of the day, they don't have a dude. You got to have a dude. You got to have a 1A dude. And they're missing that at the end of the day, if we're just getting down to brass taxes.

[Alan Hahn]

But sorry, I didn't want to disagree.

[Don LaGreca]

With Becky today, but they do have that dude.

[Alan Hahn]

Who, Jalen Bronson.

[Don LaGreca]

Now he too small. But here's the thing.

[Alan Hahn]

This is from last year, December of 23.

[Don LaGreca]

Can I say my philosophy?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Go ahead.

[Don LaGreca]

If your best player is small, you're not winning. John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, you could go down the list. Steph Curry is the only.

[Alan Hahn]

He's not that small. But also though, I mean, he's the.

[Don LaGreca]

Greatest shooter to ever walk the planet. He's. He's in an. He's in an outlier. There's always.

[Alan Hahn]

I forgot Isaiah Thomas, though.

[Don LaGreca]

Oh, forgot Isaiah Thomas also. Stockton had to go through the Bulls. Okay? Nobody went through the Bulls. Nobody went through the Bulls. All right?

[Guest]

But they got there.

[Don LaGreca]

Iverson had to get through the Lakers, Shaq and Kobe, right?

[Alan Hahn]

The height of the Lakers.

[Don LaGreca]

The height of the Lakers, 2000. Okay. You know, they weren't getting beaten by the Nuggets, okay? They were the Lakers. Nobody was beating the Lakers then. Nobody. All right? And that was before Brunson got cast.

[Alan Hahn]

Steve Nash couldn't get past the Spurs. Steve Nash is teams with the sun back to back mvp. Nobody beat the Spurs.

[Don LaGreca]

So if it's a different era, like if Allen Iverson played today, I think he'd win a title because there isn't that monster standing your way like Shaq and Kobe.

[Alan Hahn]

Just look at those Jordan roster that year that he took to the Finals.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Like, come on, come on.

[Don LaGreca]

And the other thing that part of that was.

[Alan Hahn]

And he's the only one.

[Don LaGreca]

23.

[Alan Hahn]

That's the only loss they had.

[Don LaGreca]

And what has Brunson been since December of 23? They added cat. They've. They've got some dudes and we gotta love our guy staying consistent on big body. Brunson, Right. So he was defending Brunson even back then. It was an easy thing to do. But I'm sick of going back in the history of the NBA. Well, this guy, this team never won. That team never won. A lot of good players didn't win. Charles Barkley didn't win. Why? Because there were studs that nobody was getting by. Unless you were a Bull. Unless you were a Laker, you're probably not winning a title or a Spur. Probably not win a title. You had the little window for two years and there was Akeem and he took advantage of it. One team took advantage of it and by the way, did it two years because it's friggin Akeem Olajuwon, for God's sake.

[Guest]

Well, I'm not. Listen, I'm not saying that generally speaking, it's a terrible point. I do think it's in history. If we. Look, it's hard, but it's also a lazy point.

[Don LaGreca]

It's every point that I'm making, you're probably gonna be right. And then as soon as she's challenged with Curry. Well, here. Well, Curry's not that. And he's a great shooter. But there are exceptions to the rule, people. There are. And now the NBA's. And now flush it all down the toilet because now the NBA is wide open.

[Alan Hahn]

Yep.

[Don LaGreca]

There are no dudes now. Maybe the Thunder will become that at some point.

[Alan Hahn]

Right?

[Don LaGreca]

But right now, there are no spurs, there are no Lakers, there are no Bulls, there's no more LeBron's. LeBron's at the end. Jordan's gone. All right? There's nobody that's standing in the way anymore. That's why we've had multiple championships.

[Alan Hahn]

Now, all I want to say is that when the season ends like this and you get oh, so close and you feel like you're very close, the criticism is warranted because your weaknesses are exposed. And now we all see them. The most casual fan could see that Carthaginy towns and drop coverage is a disaster. We can see that. Switching a lot with Brunson, then guarding a guy that's bigger than him, taller than him, and taking him to the basket, that's a disaster. You got to learn how to avoid that stuff. You have a whole. What do you do? Do you Just say, I forget it, scrap it, it ain't working. Or we got to make adjustments. We got to figure this out.

[Don LaGreca]

All right?

[Alan Hahn]

We know now what teams are going to do. We're aware of it. We got to get better. We have to add a little more personnel to maybe have people come off the bench so we can adjust with different lineups that we could play so we're not always playing with the same look. We can have some versatility to the style of play. That's what you do in nascar. You can have a great car and halfway through the race, something goes wrong and ain't right. You got to bring it into the pit. You got to make adjustments. You could have a bad car at the start of the race and win the race because what adjustments did you make during the race? That's the whole idea. You don't blow the car out of the car sucks. No, you just adjust it and fix it and get it to a point. But you already know it's a good car. Can we all agree if the Knicks were were a race car, it's a good car. You can win with this car, but it still needs some adjustments.

[Don LaGreca]

That's why losing sometimes is a good thing, because that's when you do your most tweak well, it forces you to. And that's why you can learn from it, find out exactly what you need.

[Guest]

I'll tell you one thing that you can think of that is hard to picture when you think of an NBA championship winner. How often is there a team that wins when you cannot really immediately think of who is that secondary person who you know is knocking down a big shot? Because this year in the playoffs, it didn't feel like they had that.

[Alan Hahn]

No, it's a fair point.

[Guest]

Like who.

[Don LaGreca]

Who. I mean, supposed to be Cat, right?

[Guest]

To me, but Cat's almost different.

[Alan Hahn]

But they're going to look at him. But you know Peter's onto something because you have Towns as towns. He was all NBA. Brunson's Brunson, he's your best player. He's one of the best players in the league. $40 million to OG Anunoby. Now his defense is important. He wasn't named all defensive team, which means the rest of the league doesn't see it. What else happened, what you just said when he was needed to knock down shots and give you a consistent offense. The DeAndre Hunter kind of thing that he had done, although he didn't do it for the Cavs once he got to the playoffs. But guys like that, that you're forgetting about. And then he gets the ball and you go, oh, crap, that's him and Bridges. Those guys were supposed to be those pieces that give you that. I have to focus so much on Brunson, I have to focus so much on Towns that I'm going to forget about either one of these guys. And they shoot 40% from three in the corner. And the problem is you didn't get that consistently enough when it mattered most. And think about it, Bridges needs an extension and Anunobi has again, 40 million bucks. This is second highest paid player on the team right now. They're not going to get the criticism, but if you're asking me what bothered me is exactly what you said. Did I get enough out of the others?

[Guest]

Did they have a Jordan pool? Did they. Have you mentioned DeAndre Hunter?

[Alan Hahn]

Did they have Robert Ori?

[Guest]

Did they have a Monte Ellis? Did they have a Harrison Barnes for the warriors when they won that first half? Like, did they have. They. They didn't really have that. So. And that kind of supports the point though, of maybe it's not about going out and grabbing the biggest players. The point you were making earlier, fill.

[Alan Hahn]

Out the roster with more reliable people.

[Guest]

Where when Brunson and Towns can't get a shot, oh, we have that other guy who can get shot.

[Alan Hahn]

I need a bully.

[Guest]

That too. That's a separate job.

[Alan Hahn]

When I say bully, I don't mean the old 90s like, you know, MC Filthy and McNasty. I'm talking about mentally a bully. A guy that, like, the game's not going right and he just has that knock down two, three shots. And now all of a sudden we're right back in. The guy that has that mentality of, no, no, no, we're not having this. Give me the ball. They're like, kick it to me. I got you. Like that. And that's what I mean about vets. People love young players and I know these two are teams, the youngest rosters and all that stuff. Everybody loves it. This Nick team, the way it's constituted, you need some tough vets, preferably one.

[Guest]

That you can actually play for more like a minute.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, you could trust them.

[Guest]

Well, because I'm just saying they went and got Tucker and literally didn't play. He can't play like that.

[Alan Hahn]

He was. He was great for the locker room.

[Guest]

Right, right. But. But they need more than that. We're going to need one who can set foot in the line.

[Don LaGreca]

So what do you guys think? 1-800-9193776 more of your calls. Got a lot going on. We got an NFL binge coming up at 4:30 on Don Han and Rosenberg on 8:80 ESPN New York and the ESPN New York app.

[Guest]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don LaGreca]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don LaGreca]

You to build on. Stop by your nearest Lowe's store and check out the full line of Craftsman tools today, valid through 618 while supplies last selection varies by location. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh. They're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

[Alan Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Guest]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Alan Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don LaGreca]

You know, I promised myself I wasn't going to bring this to air, but me and Peter just got into a really heated discussion on something we should bring to the table.

[Alan Hahn]

I think you should. Let's go. I'm tired.

[Don LaGreca]

I'm sick.

[Alan Hahn]

Let's go.

[Don LaGreca]

Tired of being good.

[Guest]

I want to be great, by the way.

[Don LaGreca]

Really got into it, and I'm really upset. And our program director just stormed out of the booth because of it. Because it is a hot button issue, and that is. Let's get to more calls. Moose in Jamaica, you're on.

[Guest]

It wouldn't have been great if we did it.

[Alan Hahn]

I want him so bad. It goes there.

[Don LaGreca]

What's up?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let's go. What's going on? What did I walk into?

[Don LaGreca]

Everything.

[Guest]

Everything. Tell you you can't even do it.

[Alan Hahn]

Make sure you walked into the right place.

[Don LaGreca]

You're a wall of fire. That's what you walked into.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'll bring a fireman next time. I come with me. But I'll burn with you. Speaking of burning red hot take in New York sports talk radio to call the Pacers in seven, even though it was in six. Flowers to you, Don. First things first.

[Don LaGreca]

I picked him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was confident.

[Alan Hahn]

Don said, nailed it.

[Don LaGreca]

The only thing I got wrong was the MVP I had. I had Halliburton as the mvp, but that's the only one I got wrong. But I appreciate the love.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, yeah. Yeah, Because I was seeing it basically the. The first quarter. I mean, the first 45 minutes of game one and. And game five is how I thought the Knicks could win. And the rest of the series is kind of. So that's why I wasn't confident when you were asking before the series started, basically, who you. And wanting people to make predictions. I was. I was starting between a heart and a heart, a rock and a hard place. But hear me out. Do you think it'd be because you want brand names, veterans, people off the bench? Do you think this is a good move if The Knicks were to trade Mikel Bridges to the Rockets for Fred Van Vliet and one of their athletic wings to add to the bench. And obviously make a veteran exception, signing for a big man. Because I did say in March, if the Knicks didn't make. Or in February, if the Knicks didn't trade for a backup point guard and an athletic wing, they would only make it to the second round. They got to the Eastern Conference finals, and. But instead of, like you said, blowing it up, add to the bench so that you don't get outmanned by a team like the Pacer.

[Alan Hahn]

Couple of things, Moose. Fred's a starter and a very good one. He does get hurt a lot. He's paid a ton of money, and he's also small. So if you're going to be worried about Brunson being small, you're kind of getting the same size player. I don't know if that's. If that's a target in my estimation.

[Don LaGreca]

I don't.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't. I like. Plus, I don't know why the Rockets would want to do that anyway, but. Yeah, I know.

[Guest]

Plus, that call took forever.

[Alan Hahn]

It really just did take forever.

[Guest]

It sucked the life out of me.

[Alan Hahn]

It just.

[Don LaGreca]

Marcus, you paying me a compliment?

[Alan Hahn]

No, it's beyond the compliment. It just. Let's get to the question. Like, come on, we got a lot of people on hold. Let's just get right into it. Rapid fire.

[Don LaGreca]

Derek in Keensburg. You're on espn, New York.

[Alan Hahn]

Hey, what's up, guys?

[Guest]

How are you?

[Alan Hahn]

Good, Derek. Good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So my point was, as much as.

[Don LaGreca]

I like this Knicks team, I think.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They need to get Giannis. I think Cat for Mikhail for Giannis.

[Don LaGreca]

And maybe like a bench player, right?

[Alan Hahn]

Derek, two starters for one player, right? Think about it. You got to do the math. Two starters for one starter, Right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I understand that.

[Don LaGreca]

And you did that already with that.

[Alan Hahn]

Two starters for one starter. So now you're doing two more starters for one starter, but you're getting a.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Top five player in the NBA.

[Alan Hahn]

No, I'm not. I'm not saying you're wrong on that one, but.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah, doesn't it set you back.

[Alan Hahn]

Look, if Milwaukee is willing to do it. Of course you are. In the conversation, you have to figure something out, try to make it work. I'm not saying that you don't. I just want you to understand the map that comes with it and that you'd still have to fight that battle of, do you have enough players beyond those two guys?

[Peter Rosenberg]

So if you think that's too drastic.

[Don LaGreca]

Then I'm also open to maybe the.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Knicks getting Mikhail for KD and then.

[Don LaGreca]

Improving, maybe getting like Boston Reed.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't see kd. I don't. I don't see that has this.

[Don LaGreca]

Yeah, because you were in, you were thinking about that earlier. I thought it kind of cooled you on that idea.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, it has. Yeah, it has.

[Guest]

You're good.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, he, he's a closer and he's going to. I want to see him on Minnesota. I think that would be a really interesting spot for him. Where?

[Guest]

Minnesota?

[Alan Hahn]

Minnesota? Yeah, him and. Him and Anthony Edwards. Like, I think that's, that's, to me, the type of fit I'm looking for. I don't know KD this time around. I just don't know if this is the best fit at this point of his career for where the Knicks are right now.

[Don LaGreca]

Dave in Portchester, you're on. Don Hanna, Rosenberg. Hey, how you guys doing?

[Peter Rosenberg]

A great Knicks season. I'm a Tibbs guy, I'm a Brunson guy, but I'm 62. I saw in 1970 the Knicks win the championship and they didn't leave the team alone.

[Don LaGreca]

They went and got a top three player.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Everybody said the chemistry is not going to work. They went and got a 30 point score in, in the playoffs and a 25 point score in the regular season in Earl Monroe.

[Don LaGreca]

Is it going to work?

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's going to work.

[Don LaGreca]

It's gonna work.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All it did was bring him to the next championship and lose because Monroe was hurt and bring him to another championship and then they won. The Knicks need another player not better than Brunson, as good as Brunson, and that's, that's, that's my whole series. You can't just add a little slim piece who can shoot from three.

[Alan Hahn]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Or another defensive guy.

[Don LaGreca]

No, no.

[Alan Hahn]

You can't keep saying, you gotta gut you. All right, so you want to gut the team, Dave, if that. You know that the Monroe deal was. Monroe was holding out. No, they had to treat.

[Don LaGreca]

He was sitting out.

[Alan Hahn]

He wanted to date. I know all about Romano.

[Don LaGreca]

Right.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, what did they give up for him? Did they give up two starters? They gave him. Mike, really gave him a bag of balls.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Mike Rear.

[Don LaGreca]

And Dave.

[Alan Hahn]

Dave, if you can make that deal happen with Giannis, then you do it. Yeah, but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I'm not talking about Yanis. Giannis has to come out and say.

[Alan Hahn]

I want to go to play for the New York Knicks. Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Kevin Durant wants to play for the New York.

[Don LaGreca]

You're sure about that?

[Alan Hahn]

He's made it well known, Dave. All right, Dave. I'll play that game if KD makes it clear that I just want to go to the Knicks. Right. I don't care. Well, I just want to go to the Knicks. And this and the Suns are like, well, we don't have a choice. Let's trade him for, you know, a couple. Like, let's trade for precious achua and Deuce McBride.

[Don LaGreca]

Well, then you do it, of course.

[Alan Hahn]

But we all know we don't live in that world.

[Don LaGreca]

No, but we're open to that world.

[Alan Hahn]

But of course you are.

[Don LaGreca]

The chances.

[Alan Hahn]

I'd love to have them in that situation, but that's. It's not reality. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.