Hour 2: Carl Banks & Chris Canty join the show

Summary

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Don, Hahn & Rosenberg – Hour 2: Carl Banks & Chris Canty Join The Show

Date: November 10, 2025
Podcast: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg (ESPN New York)
Hosts: Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg, Don La Greca ("Donnie")
Guests: Carl Banks (former Giants linebacker, broadcaster), Chris Canty (Super Bowl champion, ESPN Radio personality), listener Tessa

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Episode Overview

This episode is dedicated to the seismic change for the New York Giants: the firing of head coach Brian Daboll after a steep decline following his successful debut season. Giants legends and analysts Carl Banks and Chris Canty join the show to break down the reasons behind the move, ownership's role, ongoing struggles with organizational consistency, the outlook for interim coach Mike Kafka, and the make-or-break nature of the coming months. Listener calls bring out passionate opinions about possible future coaches and the organizational path forward.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Firing of Brian Daboll: Why Now?

• Carl Banks shares that no one should be surprised. Coaching is a "results-oriented business" (01:35) and Daboll's consistent late collapses—particularly games that "should be a win turn into a loss" (01:16)—left the Giants with no other choice.

  • Quote: “It’s the head coach who stands there before the press. No matter what part of the team fails, it’s his team.” — Carl Banks (01:55)

• The team’s lack of a stable kicking game and underperforming defense, despite investments and known talent, all fall under the head coach's responsibility.

2. Remaining Faith in General Manager Joe Schoen?

• Schoen stays on, suggesting ownership believes in the team's talent—but isn't putting all blame on roster construction.
• Banks articulates frustration with poor outcomes despite defensive talent:
  • Quote: “They invested a lot of their resources on the side of the football that is not playing very well.” — Carl Banks (03:38)
• Schoen’s mixed legacy: shrewd fiscal management, some good draft picks, but mishandling of the Saquon Barkley situation and questions about player development.

3. Organizational Rot or Bad Hires?

• Peter Rosenberg compares Giants' coaching woes to Jets’ perennial QB issues.
• Banks defends Giants’ ownership as hands-off and non-meddlesome (07:56), arguing the problem is a lack of continuity and player development more than high-level mismanagement.
  • Quote: “Finding a coach is the number one priority. It has not worked out. That is 100% true.” — Carl Banks (10:22)
• The need for assistant coaches who develop talent is paramount.

4. The Roster's Outlook and Player Development

• There’s optimism about pieces like Jackson Dart (QB), Cam Scadaboo (RB), Andrew Thomas (OL), and Malik Nabers (WR). The big question is: who will develop these pieces?
• Quote: “You need teachers right now in the NFL, you don’t need, you know, guys who can tell you what analytics say, because analytics don’t have a heartbeat.” — Carl Banks (13:22)

5. Who Should Be the Next Head Coach?

• Banks won't nominate a candidate out of respect for current staff (14:03), but supports interim Mike Kafka getting an audition.
• The hosts and callers debate external names:
  • Mike Kafka (Giants’ OC/interim): Will get a chance, but future unclear.
  • Antonio Pierce: Has player support but lacks successful experience (21:43).
  • Bill Belichick: Don is intrigued by the idea, but both Banks and Canty are skeptical.
    • Quote: “Bill Belichick... I think he’s shown that he’s not somebody that commands that institutional control that he once had... I just don’t think the Giants need to be moving in that direction.” — Chris Canty (28:10)

6. What’s Wrong With the Giants’ Culture?

• Quote: “A fish rots from the head down, and John Mara has to own a certain amount of this.” — Chris Canty (30:19)
• Canty points out that continuity and organizational hierarchy issues have played a part, but Mara gave Daboll a reasonably long leash compared to past coaches.

7. The Kafka Question

• While Banks is supportive, Canty is clear that Kafka is too complicit in the Giants’ struggles to warrant serious head coaching consideration (37:38).

8. What Kind of Coach is Needed?

• Canty suggests a young, energetic “program builder” who can grow with the team—highlighting names like Clint Kubiak (Seattle Seahawks OC), Jesse Minner (LA Rams DC), Chris Shula (LA Chargers DC) (35:15).

  • Quote: “I like somebody that can grow with this young team, somebody that's going to bring the energy, somebody that's going to bring the juice.” — Chris Canty (36:12)

• Head coach should coach all 53, not just be a "quarterback whisperer" (36:54).

9. Listener Calls: Giants Fan Therapy

• Caller Jason: Floats Antonio Pierce. Hosts agree players love him but doubt his experience is enough (21:43).
• Caller Paul: Suggests Belichick; hosts agree he’d be an upgrade in-game but question his current fit and energy (23:15, 24:18).
• Tessa: Wants a disciplinarian like Mike Tomlin or even "a Nick Saban or Bill Cowher type" to rebuild the foundation. Hosts reflect on Giants needing a stabilizer, not a sexy hire.
  • Quote: “We need the basics. We need the foundation built up. We have so many cracks in our foundation right now. We need it all tore down to the ground and we need to rebuild it.” — Tessa (43:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s the head coach who stands there before the press. No matter what part of the team fails, it’s his team.” — Carl Banks (01:55)
• “They invested a lot of their resources on the side of the football that is not playing very well.” — Carl Banks (03:38)
• “You need teachers right now in the NFL, you don’t need... guys who can tell you what analytics say, because analytics don’t have a heartbeat.” — Carl Banks (13:22)
• “Bill Belichick... I think he’s shown that he’s not somebody that commands that institutional control that he once had... I just don’t think the Giants need to be moving in that direction.” — Chris Canty (28:10)
• “A fish rots from the head down, and John Mara has to own a certain amount of this.” — Chris Canty (30:19)
• “I like somebody that can grow with this young team, somebody that's going to bring the energy, somebody that's going to bring the juice.” — Chris Canty (36:12)
• “We need the basics. We need the foundation built up. We have so many cracks in our foundation right now. We need it all tore down to the ground and we need to rebuild it.” — Tessa (43:54)

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Timestamps: Important Segments

• [00:14] Big news: Brian Daboll out as Giants HC; Joe Schoen to stay
• [01:35] Carl Banks’ initial reaction to Daboll firing—onus is on the head coach
• [03:38] Talent, defense, and questions about Schoen’s evaluation
• [07:56] Giants’ organizational structure debated; ownership’s role
• [11:29] Do Giants fans have reasons for hope? Banks on young talent and direction
• [14:03] Banks’ take on the coaching search, why he won’t name names now
• [21:43] Caller: Antonio Pierce as HC? Hosts’ breakdown
• [23:15] The Belichick question: would he be an in-game upgrade?
• [27:28] Chris Canty joins; history of Giants’ struggles post-Super Bowl
• [28:10] Canty rejects the idea of hiring Belichick
• [30:19] Canty: Ownership, hierarchy, and the root of the Giants’ issues
• [35:15] Canty’s coaching wishlist: program-builders, not just big names
• [36:54] Coaching all 53 vs. being a “quarterback whisperer”
• [37:38] Kafka’s future: Canty says he’s too complicit to get the job
• [43:54] Caller Tessa on foundational rebuild; dreaming of a Tomlin or Saban
• [46:03] Mike McCarthy floated as a stabilizer/stabilizing hire

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Takeaways

• The entire franchise is at a crossroads, with a need for not just a new coach but an organizational reset in player development and culture.
• The answer isn’t likely a “sexy” name but someone who can build, connect, and get the best out of talent.
• Managing the expectations of a fanbase that yearns for discipline, accountability, and at least a return to respectability is key.
• The Giants have pieces, but need the right builder—and faith that ownership will not repeat the mistakes of the last decade.

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This episode was an honest, passionate, and at times raw look at what’s wrong with the Giants, what needs to change, and the difficult search for the right leader to restore hope in MetLife Stadium.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Don Hahn]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers, 401.

[Alan Hahn]

In the big city with Don Lagra. Peter Rosenberg, I'm Alan Hahn. We have calls for you at 800 now at 93776 and we'll continue to rack them up and talk with you. The biggest news of the day, of course, is Brian Dabel is out as head coach of the New York Giants. He finishes with a 2040 and one record, of course, nine seven and one of that was in the first season. So that's 11 and 33 after that first successful season with a winning percentage of.336. That's worse than Ben McAdoo and Ray Perkins. So it has not been a good run for Brian Dabel. Joe Shane will remain on as gm. He'll be part of the next search for a head coach. Mike Kafka will, he's the offensive coordinator. He will now fill the role for the rest of this season, at least as interim head coach. We wanted to get the deepest perspective we could on the Giants about this. We go to people with great success with the Giants. One of the most successful Giants, of course, that we know who's excellent in broadcasting as well is Carl Banks, friend of the show who joins us right now. Cb, how we doing?

[Donnie]

Hey, Carl.

[Carl Banks]

I'm doing okay, man. How y' all doing?

[Alan Hahn]

Well, none of us can be surprised by this. This felt like something that he was already on thin ice. But after a fourth time of having a game that should be a win turn into a loss, the inevitable, it felt like it just had to happen. I can't imagine you had surprise this morning when you heard the news, but what was your reaction?

[Carl Banks]

Well, I was not surprised and you know, it's a result oriented business. And I was talking to my broadcaster, broadcasting partner Bob Popp on our podcast. I was like, you know, now I kind of understand. When Bill Parcells used to scream at his assistant coaches in meetings when I worked with him at the jets, he used to say, you, expletives are not going to get me fired because you can't get these guys to play because the buck always stops with the head coach. It's the head coach who stands there before the press. No matter what part of the team fails, it's his team. And so you can look at the progress of Jackson Dart and you say, boy, you know, they've done some things with him. He's doing a Good job there. Or he and Mike Kafka. But at the end of the day when you cannot have a kicking situation that's stable, when you have a defensive situation, call it whatever you want, it's bad. It all reports back to him. So you know, he's the guy that wears the whistle so he's responsible for all that. And I have a great level of affection for Dabes and you know, I think he's, he's a really good offensive mind. I think it's just unfortunate that you know, as the head of a football team, the whole team you're responsible for and you know, when you have collapses like they had, it falls on the shoulders of the head coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, Stora collapses for sure. And all the other things will come out in the watch during the course of the offseason, Carl. But the one other change that will not come is it general manager. And you saw that in the statement that Joe Shane sticking around and is going to have a say in who the next head coach is. So that suggests that they believe the talent should be better than what their record is and that it's the coach's fault. It's not. Do you agree with that?

[Carl Banks]

Well, I can't tell you. Well, I can tell you they have talent. I can tell you they invested a lot of their resources on the side of the football that is not playing very well. And can you tell me. I can tell you five super talented kids on defense and if you could give me five on any team I can win with those, I could, I could stop the run with five really good players. I can get the other guys to stand in line, I mean to fall in line and it just not getting enough out of those players. And that has been my biggest frustration in watching this defense because I think they've got some really talented players. Their investment should be paying off more than it is. And so with Joe Shane, I think you have to look at a lot of different areas of his job responsibility. Number one, he had to fiscally get them out of hell while signing B level free agents the first couple of years because they couldn't afford to get anybody and some guys they had to let go. The legacy unfortunately will be, you know, the handling of the Saquon Barkley situation. Whether people think it was handled the right way or not, it just looks different. Like the Daniel Jones situation, he'll be an MVP candidate but it was never going to work out here in New York. So that is what it is because he found a quarterback for the future, a running back had a good draft the year before. And I think, you know, those players who have gone backward from the last year to this year, it, you know, it's just telling me something's not right with the way this defense is being operated. Because he's got good players, he's got good players on defense. I'm not going to tell you they're future all pros. We don't know that. But the guys that he put there, and even, you know, the center, John Michael Schmitz, who was, you know, everybody was killing for a season in an off season and now he's ascending into a really good center for them. So I think they can evaluate talent, but you've got to be able to get the most out of your talent. That's what it really comes down to. So I don't know how you can say, well, one part of the job he didn't do well, but the other part he does. I think it's all encompassing, you know, and I think that's how ownership is going to evaluate that process. But they overhauled the scouting department and they will, you know, they'll be judged on that at some point. Like, you know, the fact that he went into camp with, you know, a shaky kicker situation. Graham Gano was iffy last year. Right. And you went into the season with him and then it came to every loss they've had has been attributed to something in the kicking game.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, sure.

[Carl Banks]

So that one, you know, he's got to wear that, right? Because wherever he created competition, they got better. Wherever he didn't, they didn't like the kicking situation, his hang, it has to hang over his head, you know, and they just never quite got it right. So it cost him games. So all of that just like, you know, the whole win, loss, special teams, offense, defense, all reports to the head coach. Well, these type of personnel acquisitions also they point to the general manager and you know, he's had some good ones. Thankfully, you know, as of late, he's had more good players than bad players that people can point to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I guess the concern for me as a Giant fan, Carl, is I look at all right, it failed with Dable, but it also failed with Judge and with Shermer and with McAdoo. I mean, since Tom Coughlin, they have just not been able to get the head coaching position right. It's kind of like with the jets with a quarterback, right? All the quarterbacks can't be wrong. There must be something wrong with the development of the quarterback with the jets. Is there Something wrong with this organization that head coaches just can't seem to gain any traction? Or are they all just bad hires?

[Carl Banks]

I think everybody. I think everyone always points to ownership, right? The Giants ownership is the least meddlesome. This is kind of like when people were saying, and Alan knows a little bit more about this because he's closer to it. You know, people were calling for James Dolan to sell the Knicks, right? I think what every coach would want, what every general manager would want, is the support of an owner who gets out of the way and say, you do it your way, you're going to succeed or fail. I think that has kind of been what the Giants ownership, both sides of it, have done. And then, you know, you have these opinions on whether or not Chris Mehra is good at his job or Tim McDonald is good at his job. There are two people that don't have the ultimate deciding vote. But I think I can assure you both guys know what they're doing much more than people give them credit for. But that's a debate people want, will have. And, you know, whether or not family members work within an organization, you see that across all sports. Whether or not they are good at what they do. You know, people can debate that. I can't defend that. I know, and I have that relationship, but I'm not going to go to bat. I know what these guys do every day, and I know how they evaluate. But if you're on the outside looking in and you need somebody to blame, you're going to blame two guys out of a staff of 25. And, you know, it is what it is. But look, I think, you know, finding a coach is the number one priority. It has not worked out. That is 100% true. And they got to find someone who can connect with players. But also you got to find a guy who's going to get a staff that can develop players. Head coaches don't develop players at the rate assistants do. Head coaches have to coach their assistants, and their assistants have to get the best out of players because, you know, with general managers, you know, picking players is not an exact science. You're going to miss on probably more than you hit, but you got to make sure the hits are good. And, you know, with the Giants, it's been hit or miss, and then one year they're a hit, the next year they're not. And you wonder what's going on. And there's got to be some connective tissue there. You know, can an owner mandate certain things change? Maybe because something is not Getting better. So maybe that is something they may want to require from ownership. People think it's the opposite, but maybe they shouldn't. Maybe they should get more involved and, you know, give a criteria. Because when you listen to John Merritt talk, he will tell you about the autonomy he gives his people to, you know, do what they do. And when he wanted to keep Tom Coughlin and someone else wanted to fire him, he said, go ahead and do it. You know, so it's. They got to do something different. We know that for a fact. And, you know, I know that the same ownership that have oversaw four Super Bowls or five. Five Super Bowls and four championships did. They didn't decide to become dumb.

[Donnie]

Right?

[Carl Banks]

I know that.

[Donnie]

Well, Carl, if now days like today are tough because if you're a fan, you have question marks about what the future holds and we just. You and Don just laid out. Finding a head coach has not been easy for this team. But if you are just a fan of the Giants, can you feel pretty good about what you do have here moving into next season?

[Carl Banks]

I think you can look at the personnel and feel good about it. The direction is what you. Everyone should be skeptical about because it just hasn't been there. It just hasn't. And they need to get that right. I feel good about the players on the roster that they're building. Right. They've got that part of it moving in the right direction. When you can get a quarterback like Jackson Dart and you can get Cam Scatterboo and you've got Andrew Thomas playing well, and so there are some pieces there that they're going to have a bright future and Malik Neighbors when he comes back from injury. But listen, you got to go find linebackers that can play. You got to figure out what to do with Deontay Banks. You know, these are questions you got to ask your future coordinators and your future position coaches. How do you develop players? What is your plan for these players? Right? You just can't roll them out there anymore because a lot of the majority of these kids come from college. Flawed, right? If you think you're going to get a stud defensive player from college and then you cut on TV and they're scoring 50 points a game, every team, then you ain't getting much on defense that's developed, you know, because all they do is run up and down and try, you know, whoever has the ball last in the major college leagues. I mean, the major college colleges right now, they go play each other and they score 50, 60 points a game. Like, so you're not getting a great defensive player. You don't know what he is because they haven't stopped anybody. So you got to figure. You got to talk to coaches and figure out how you're going to develop them. If you don't get the answer you're looking for, then you move on to a guy who can develop talent. That's. You need teachers right now in the NFL, you don't need, you know, guys who can tell you what analytics say, because analytics don't have a heartbeat. Analytics don't show up not wanting to practice. Good. I'm sorry.

[Alan Hahn]

No. Again, I just wanted to let everybody know we're talking with the great Carl Banks about the Giants change in coaching staff. So now you don't have Brian Dabel, so now you got to find a coach. Now it sounds like Kafka is going to get a chance to audition a little bit, get a look. He has interviewed for other jobs, but I've been asking everybody, and there's nobody better to ask than you, who, if you could pick a coach, who would be the right coach for this job right now? Because you're talking about the developing, the teaching, all the things that you're talking about, is there someone that you have in mind that would fill that role?

[Carl Banks]

Oh, I know. I won't answer it. I won't answer it because there's a guy who has a job right now who's auditioning for it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Carl Banks]

Out of respect for him, here's my thing for the players and these. Whoever's leftist, trying to maintain a job. You got six games left, figure out how to win some of them. You know that. That's my thing. Like, you don't have to be 2 in 15. Go win a few more games. Right. But, you know, I'm going to support whoever the coach is for the Giants today, and that's Mike Kafka, and I'm going to wish him the best. You know, I. I wear a Giants uniform. You know, I'm a Giant. Right. So I'm not going to root against anybody for somebody else to take their job. And I have to be transparent about that. Now, when the season's over with, I have an opinion.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay, we'll have you on now.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We're gonna have you on.

[Carl Banks]

Yes, I, I will. I will. Because I, I'm. I want the Giants to have success, all right? Right. I'm more miserable than Don McGregor when they lose. So I'm gonna root for the guy who's there.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Carl Banks]

If he's, if he's on that staff, I'm rooting for him. When it's all said and done and they're going to go in a different direction, I definitely have some opinions. Yes, absolutely. All right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And we'll tap into that during the off season. The one for me that I think is the most important right now moving forward is Jackson Dart. And everybody seems to be in unison that this kid's got a future. But how much is he going to have to alter the way he plays to be able to stay upright? Since the preseason, four times he's gone into concussion protocol.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And can he still be dynamic if he then dials it down? And do you believe he has to dial it down to stay healthy?

[Carl Banks]

I think he has to use better judgment. Yesterday they only had four design quarterback runs. Two were touchdowns, I don't think. And again, I have to preface by saying I'm not a concussion expert, but I don't know if that particular play that he left on was the one that really gave him the concussion he got. CJ Gardner Johnson whacked him on a blitz pretty hard. This one, you know, he just kind of jumped up in the air and fell down. I don't know. To answer your question, he has to use better judgment. I think he can take care of himself. He's not a small kid. Will his game change if he can't run as much? He can throw the football. I think we've seen he can actually throw the football. So his game is not as a, you know, run first quarterback. He can process, he reads, he puts his team in the right situations and if it's not there, he takes off. But I think he's learning that the hits keep coming in the NFL and they're harder and harder. So I think he's smart enough and he just had to use better judgment. But I think he can throw the football. He's not. If he can't scramble to run, he'll be okay. I think he's got enough ability to throw the football the way they any NFL good NFL quarterback would.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, we're going to hold you to it. When the season's over, we'd love to have you back on and we can discuss even further.

[Carl Banks]

I would love to break it down. We should definitely do that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Carl Banks]

I appreciate you guys.

[Alan Hahn]

So we thank you for coming on now with us because this is obviously a big day and your opinion is valued. So thanks so much. The great Carl Banks a lot there, guys. I mean, him saying, the line that really got me was when he said that they they can evaluate talent, but you have to get the most out of it. Now, sounds to me like you're saying they know how to pay, they can find players, but they're not coaching them to be like, to reach the potential that they have shown at times.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen, I'm not going to tell you that being a general manager is easy, but all these guys have talent, right? It's just a matter of getting the guys that fit in New York, getting the guys to fit in the system. Are they winners? Are they guys that will put in the work necessary? You know, we've seen teams, you bring up Mike McCarthy every year. The Dallas Cowboys under Mike McCarthy would send a dozen guys to the Pro bowl and yet couldn't get anything done in big games and couldn't win in the postseason.

[Alan Hahn]

They still won 12 games a year. Like, you know, they're still doing that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But they just couldn't. They just couldn't get over the top.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know, so it's not just having the most talented team is making sure that these guys can, can handle it. Because we've seen countless teams that. Well, how are they doing that? They don't have the most talented team, but they're finding ways to win games. So listen, talent is always going to rule out as far as drafting is concerned, but are they the right people? And clearly, you know, he. Without saying it, guys, he was destroying Shane Bone, right? Because we've. They've got talent here and they can't work it out. And Shane's gonna be out of a job. Season's old, right?

[Alan Hahn]

Five players on one side of the ball. You know what? We know what side of the ball he's talking about.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right?

[Donnie]

And it's the more glaring a. That side of the ball has been terrible. The, the offensive side's been decent with major pieces gone. Average is. And they've been all right.

[Alan Hahn]

They're getting 20 some points a game.

[Donnie]

With no Scatter Boo. No Malik neighbors. So. So, no, it's clearly on. But you know what it sounds like, if I'm being honest?

[Alan Hahn]

What does that sound like?

[Donnie]

The Bowen needs help.

[Alan Hahn]

He does need help.

[Donnie]

Better Help.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Better Help. How about, is there a better football help? Do they have that division?

[Donnie]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Donnie]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Donnie]

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[Alan Hahn]

After calling pound 250-800-9193776 want to grab a call or two here before we have Chris Cany coming up in the 430.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, really quick though, I wanted to say that when I hear Carl not want to answer the coach question.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The way I took that is Kafka is going to give given some leash here. I think he's got a real shot that if he's good in these final seven games he's going to get some serious consideration.

[Alan Hahn]

I think you're right and I think that's what he's aware of. And again, knowing he has interviewed for several head coaching jobs over the last two years. So he has been a wanted man and they probably want to make sure they know what they have because this is a franchise that lets you, Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry go.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We've seen it before. John Fox and Sean Payton go.

[Alan Hahn]

Very good. Very good point. Jason in wantsaw. You're up next with us. Jason.

[Chris Canty]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Hey guys.

[Caller (Jason)]

So one thing I just wanted to talk about is like I know that there have been a lot of names from Jon Gruden to, you know, Mike McCarthy. I mean like you guys said, Clint Kubiak and whatnot. But what about a guy like Antonio Pierce who I know the Raiders loved him. I know a lot of the players there, you know, have spoken highly of him and how they kind of worked for him and wanted to play for him. So like what about an option like That, I mean, I know he's played here, but is there anything else that you know would be detrimental to him potentially being an option?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, when Jordan was on with K, he mentioned Pierce as a possible candidate. Now, he did not have success with the Raiders, but you're right, players wanted to play for him. Now, is that enough for him to get this kind of a job after he failed in another one? But Jordan Ronan said he would be a candidate. He did play here. He was a leader. I can't rule it out. I wouldn't go there. I just, I. Not a ton of experience and what he did do did not succeed. I think I would, I would go in another direction, but it sounds like he might get a look.

[Alan Hahn]

He'd be a guy that you would want. CEO. Like, you're not in charge of anything, offense or defense. You're in charge of getting the team ready, getting the team galvanized.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're.

[Alan Hahn]

You're in charge of making sure your coaches are doing what they're supposed to do in your place. Like all that stuff. Right. Like, you're not looking for him to be a, like a. It's involved in the strategy and all. Like, that's, that's something that. Yeah, I agree with you. Plus immediately the pressure that would be on him, like right out of the gate because of the lack of experience. Bob in Sarasota, what do you got for us, Bob?

[Chris Canty]

Oh, it's Paul.

[Caller (Jason)]

Hey, guys.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay, Paul.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hey, Paul.

[Chris Canty]

Well, I just want to say I love the idea of Belichick coming in and working in. Maybe not like giving it all to Shane, but collaborating together to get players. We've been, every show today has been talking about how we could be 6.

[Tessa]

And 4 right now.

[Chris Canty]

And I feel like even with what.

[Tessa]

Happened at the end in New England.

[Chris Canty]

I think if Belichick was our coach this year, we would be 6 and 4, maybe even 7 and 3.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You wouldn't think he would screw up things like maintenance of the clock and key decisions. You're right. I mean, that's a good, that's a great way to put it, Paul, that if with all the Belichick's flaws, if he's coaching the 25 Giants, they're six and four.

[Donnie]

That's such a tough way to do a comp because like, you don't just get a guy. He doesn't just show up and coach the games. It's the whole thing that comes with it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But you're right.

[Donnie]

As an in game coach would. As an in game coach only would Bill Belichick be an upgrade from what we've seen from Brian Dable. Absolute friggin lutely. It's just a question of the whole. No, you're right, Belichick Persona we've seen.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But would you say that in game decisions, in game coaching is definitely a strength for Belichick?

[Donnie]

I absolutely would say that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And it was a weakness for Dable.

[Donnie]

I would say that. Which by the way, these are important things. I mean, what are you saying? The coaching part of being a coach is important.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But. But you are making a point that it's beyond the coaching of the coaching that ultimately sometimes lives or dies with the job. Right.

[Donnie]

Well, the thing that Al and I were talking about during the break and we got. We'll break. We'll talk about it more later. But the thing with Belichick is not just about wins and losses and coaching and evaluating talent. It's that something about his personality has appeared to have changed that makes me nervous. Don, we talked about it those press conferences. He's lost his edge. There's something that's a little different.

[Alan Hahn]

You might be trying to get the guy that isn't there anymore. And that's something we should definitely dive into.

[Donnie]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Donnie]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Hahn]

I love it. Coming into a little bit of right. Go ahead, Donnie. Feeling this. Yes. One of my favorite songs. Very long song.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's a long song. Very disturbing twist at the end of the.

[Chris Canty]

Of the song.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah. As a youngster, I always would like listen to that part going, what, what, what are we doing here? But it was very strange.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And then when they used it in Apocalypse now, the scene, they used it in disturbing but really awesome at the same time. So. But this is the end, at least.

[Alan Hahn]

At least for Brian D. As we continue with our Giants conversation, we only want to bring in guys with rings, so Carl Banks was with us. Now we have Chris Canty, who's joining us now. Sportsmanlike on ESPN Radio every morning. You see him on all of our shows as well. And I mean, I call, I consider him a brother on the show. Right? He's not like we always say, friend of the show.

[Donnie]

No, he's more Chris.

[Alan Hahn]

Ken is a brother to the show. Cece, what's happening, man?

[Chris Canty]

Not too much, fellas. I mean, other than New York Giants firing yet another head coach. I hate, I hate being in this place where we're hiring and firing coaches. Seems like every other year.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But.

[Carl Banks]

But that's where the Giants have been.

[Chris Canty]

Since Super Bowl 46. And unfortunately, they haven't come close to being able to get to those heights of the franchise since that moment.

[Alan Hahn]

All right, So I have to. I'm sorry, Donnie.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, sure.

[Alan Hahn]

I want to say, because I think you two are going to have it out now. I am curious. I need to know because Don, Chris, Don, from the start of the show has been saying one name and one name only. As someone the Giants should be bringing in here. That name is Bill Belichick. What say you?

[Chris Canty]

No, no, no, no. Bill Belichick, with respect to his career, I think he's shown that he's not somebody that commands that institutional control that he once had that made him famous with the Patriots. The do your job bit with something that resonated with an older generation of athletes. I don't necessarily know that that connects with the athletes that are in today's game. I think you're seeing some of the struggles that he's having down at unc.

[Carl Banks]

And we're in a time and space.

[Chris Canty]

Where the college game resembles a lot of the program. He lost his touch at the end in New England. I just don't think the Giants need to be moving in that direction.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, Allen definitely sold it a lot more than I even sold it myself. I just said I'm not completely on point board, but the reason I threw the name out because there's risk for everybody, especially guys without a lot of experience. Chris, the only reason I even suggested is because. Never mind who's going to lead this team back to a Super Bowl. I need to get the ship right. Man, this has been an embarrassment. Three straight two and eight starts. I mean, they become a laughing stock. This once proud franchise is a mess. And I just thought if you bring somebody in to kind of just stabilize it, you don't think he could even do that?

[Carl Banks]

I don't think he can do that. If I did, Donnie, I'd be all.

[Chris Canty]

On board with it. I mean, I just want somebody that's going to come in and be a base hit. I'm not looking for the home run higher to your point, but I don't know that that's Bill Belichick. I think there's a lot more risk.

[Carl Banks]

Than what the potential reward, the payoff would be.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, that. That. That's certainly. That's certainly a fair analysis of it. But, you know, I asked Carl Banks about this, and I'll ask you about it. They've gotten it wrong four straight times. How. How can that be possible? Like, it's like with the jets with quarterbacks. They can't all be bad. Something must be rotten within that four straight coaches have fell on their face. What else could it be besides just hiring the wrong coach? Could some of these guys been right if things within the organization was functioning?

[Carl Banks]

Oh, absolutely. And I think anytime you go through.

[Chris Canty]

This cycle of hiring, firing coaches, you have to look at the hierarchy within the organization.

[Carl Banks]

They say a fish rots from the head down.

[Chris Canty]

And John Maurer has to own a.

[Carl Banks]

Certain amount of this.

[Chris Canty]

Now, to his credit, I think he gave Brian Daboll a lot of Runway, certainly more than he gave McAdoo, Sherman or Judge, but the result has been the same. I mean, Dabo started off 7 and 2 and proceeded to go 13 and 38 over his next 51 games. So it's not as if John Mara had a quick hook. He gave Brian Dable ample time to be able to implement his program and be able to Establish an identity that could lead to sustained success.

[Carl Banks]

And Brian Dable and Joe Shane just.

[Chris Canty]

Haven'T been able to do it as a tandem. Now we'll see what happens and who Joe Shane goes with as his next coaching hire. But he's the next one that's going to be in the jackpot and I'm not sure how much time he's going to have to get this thing turned around.

[Donnie]

Obviously, Chris, this is not the ideal situation, but I had gotten to the point with his Giants team where I felt like don't even root for W. Just let's just root to end this thing and start over again. Where were you prior to this weekend? Were you hopeful there was any out for Dable or given how bad things were, was this sort of the ideal situation is end it in Cup 8?

[Chris Canty]

Peter I just wanted them to win.

[Alan Hahn]

Right?

[Carl Banks]

And I'm not, I don't feel like.

[Chris Canty]

I'm asking for too much to ask them to hold up, hold on to a double digit lead in the final five minutes of the game. I don't think that that's asking too much. I mean, yet we're seeing it game over game. The New York Giants blowing double digit leads in the fourth quarter on the road. And I just don't want the young players on this team to get comfortable with that being the norm. And so I think a change had to be made. Certainly the optics of Jackson Dart going to the blue tent seemingly every other week to get checked out for a concussion doesn't help. But beyond that, man, there's a certain level of competency going out there and being able to finish the game after you do all the work to put yourself in position to win. You know, teams, before you win the game, you got to find a way to avoid losing the game. And it just seems like the Giants found new and creative ways to lose games every week.

[Alan Hahn]

So you see, you're a defense guy. Should Shane Bowen have gone out the door with Brian Dabel?

[Chris Canty]

Clearly what Shane Bowen has been doing is not good enough. But I also understand the organizations wanting to be able to maintain the coaching staff wanting to be able to give interim head coach Mike Kafka an opportunity to see if he can do something, to see if he can find a spark. And when you have that much change, if you're firing the coordinators, you're firing the head coach. I just think that that would have been too much for whoever's stepping into those shoes to be able to overcome. So I get why they kept Shane Bowen around. I Don't anticipate that he's going to be around after the season's over with. I think they're going to clean house, but I understand why they kept him. And this is an organization that's at an inflection point in terms of where they're going. There's a lot of change that's happening in 1925 Giants Drive. And I think that they just wanted to maintain some continuity in the midst of a huge, huge move in firing the head coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Chris, would you have brought Shane back?

[Carl Banks]

No.

[Chris Canty]

No. And Donnie? It would have been hard for me to get past the optics of Joe Shane yucking it up in his command center on the eve of free agency, laughing about the identity of the team not being a 13 million dollar a year running back. And then Ted, running back going down the turnpike and rushing for 2,005 yards and having 15 total touchdowns on the way to being in catalyst for the Eagles winning Super Bowl 59. I'm sorry, that would have been a fireable offense if they couldn't get it turned around this year, which they didn't. And then, oh, by the way, seeing what Daniel Jones is doing in with the Indianapolis Colts and having them out to an 8 and 2 start, I mean, and you're seeing draft picks, homegrown players, go to other teams and thrive.

[Carl Banks]

What is it about the New York.

[Chris Canty]

Giants in our culture where those guys can't do that here? And everybody comes up with the excuse, oh well, they wouldn't have been able to be that here or they wouldn't have had this success or productivity here. My question is why? Why can't it be here?

[Alan Hahn]

So if you don't want Bill Belichick to be the next head coach like Don does, then who do you have in mind? And if you don't have a name, then tell me what type of coach it has to be to be next. To put an end to this endless cycle of turning over a coach every two to three years.

[Chris Canty]

It would be one of the three coordinators on the west coast either it's Clint Kubiak from the Seattle Seahawks, whose football royalty is daddy. Gary Kubiak was the man won Super Bowl 50 with the Denver Broncos. I was with Gary when he was with the Baltimore Ravens. He helped guide us to a playoff appearance back in 2014. I love what they're doing. Clint has got the most explosive offense in the NFL, quite literally. Nobody has more 20 plus yard plays than the Seattle Seahawks. Seeing what he's been able to do with Sam Darnold I would be excited to see Jackson dart, Malik Nabors and Cam Scatterboo in that type of offense. I love the defensive coordinators for the LA teams, whether it's Jesse Minner or Chris Shula with the Chargers and Rams respectively. I think both of those guys have what it takes to be a head coach, but also they have what it takes to be a program builder. So it would be somebody of that ilk. I like somebody that can grow with this young team, somebody that's going to bring the energy, somebody that's going to bring the juice.

[Carl Banks]

And yeah, they're going to have to.

[Chris Canty]

Figure out some things on the job. There's going to be some new learnings when you're stepping into such a big role. But I like the upside when it comes to one of those three coordinators. I would be fine if the Giants go with anyone.

[Donnie]

Can you feel good enough about where Jackson Darts development has been with this offense to not have to make a coaching head coaching decision based a lot on quarterback development?

[Chris Canty]

Oh, well, Peter, I mean, I'm with you.

[Carl Banks]

I mean, you.

[Chris Canty]

I know it doesn't feel like it this year, but I love what the Washington Commanders did when they hired Dan Quinn. They got somebody that was going to be the head coach of the team, not just the head coach for the quarterback.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Chris Canty]

And I'm a big believer in coaching all 53, not just coaching one of 53.

[Carl Banks]

And we get it.

[Chris Canty]

Quarterback is the most important position in all of team sports. But if you don't have the other guys doing their jobs, it doesn't matter what the quarterback is bringing to the party. So I think it's important for the New York Giants to get somebody that's a good communicator, somebody that can bring energy, somebody that can command respect in the locker room and somebody that can connect with this generation athletes. So I like the idea of hiring somebody because you think they're going to be a good coach for the entire team and not just one of these quote unquote quarterback whispers.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Chris, do you think if Kafka does a decent job here in the final seven, he might get a serious look?

[Chris Canty]

No, no. I mean, he's complicit in everything that's happened with the New York Giants over the last few years. They're 11 and 33. He's got to own some of this, too. He's absolutely got. I mean, that is abysmal. They've got to what, three straight two and eight starts? He's got to own that. So, no, I Don't think that Mike Kafka is going to be the guy for the Giants or he's going to get consideration from the, the Giants respect to him. I think he's got some, you know, good traits in terms of how he likes to do things, but I don't see him being able to be the next head coach for the Giants.

[Alan Hahn]

The man is Chris Canty. The show on sportsmanlike every morning on ESPN Radio. Cc, love you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, dude.

[Carl Banks]

I appreciate it, guys.

[Chris Canty]

Have a good one.

[Alan Hahn]

Knew he'd have a lot to say. Yeah, Don, how do you feel? He completely shot down your Bill Belichick dream.

[Donnie]

Dead as a door now out.

[Alan Hahn]

Never. Don't even bring it up anymore.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I just brought it up as a question. All of a sudden now I'm walking around the building with a sign, hire Bella.

[Donnie]

Please hire Bella.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I wasn't even going to go on board. And you're completely misrepresenting my suggestion.

[Alan Hahn]

Felt like you really were pushing for it, like you want it to happen.

[Donnie]

Yeah, I was just.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was just saying that why dismiss with all the candidates that are being brought up, why dismiss him?

[Alan Hahn]

I don't know.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But what a greater point.

[Alan Hahn]

You made a great case. You made a very good case. And then once Chris said no, it's as if you backed off. I was surprised. Thought you were going to.

[Donnie]

He was hoping. Alan was hoping to get a full blown throwdown drag out because.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, first of all, I'm, I'm not owning this suggestion to the point I'm going to go all of a sudden fall on a grenade for it. And he made a great point and you guys made a great point before the break. Maybe you're not. Maybe I'm looking at a different Belichick than what currently exists now. She said didn't end well in New England and certainly it hasn't gone well. North Carolina. He seems like he's a bit of a different person, so maybe I wouldn't be getting that Belichick. So that's the thing. He made some good points.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, we, I think in the 5 o' clock hour as we reset, I think we, we should dive deeper into the Belichick of it all because there are a lot of people that are suggesting Bill Belichick, it's the obvious name to go to. And we were discussing some of these off air that we should definitely discuss on air about why that's probably not the, not the best idea and the best route for the Giants to take.

[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Han and Rosenberg podcast.

[Donnie]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Hahn]

Jacob's working.

[Donnie]

I mean, listen, I love it.

[Alan Hahn]

It's hard not to say, you guys. I feel like right now in the show is a perfect time to bring in one of the most passionate Giants fans we know. And that, of course, if she still has a voice, it's Tessa.

[Donnie]

She doesn't yell anymore.

[Tessa]

Thank you so much. Hey, guys, thanks so much for taking my call. I do have a voice. I had the tea this morning, the halls. I do have a voice. So I do appreciate that, because I know last time I sounded atrocious, but I do want to comment on something you said earlier about Don. I just want to make a correction. I feel like Don is already a superstar. He's not ascending now. He's going to the next level, like supernova. So in my eyes, Don is already a superstar. You know what I'm saying? Don, you already there. You just ascending down to, like a supernatural. You know what I mean?

[Alan Hahn]

Test. Does he. Does he give it before he puts us in the rear view?

[Donnie]

Yeah. Enough is enough.

[Alan Hahn]

I'm too big to be doing this.

[Tessa]

Listen, I'm hoping don't do it. Don is just such a. A true at heart person. I don't think he gonna do it dirty like that. So I'm gon. He's not gonna do it. I'm gonna say he's not gonna forget about us small people. I'm say that I'm a stand by it, Don.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, maybe Peter. I don't know. Right?

[Tessa]

Maybe Peter. That's just like I told you. I was into that contest because, you know, Carlin said that, you know, since Peter was hosting the UFC thing, that he would do whatever we say. And he mentioned something about white walls. I was like, oh, I have those. So I wanted to enter that contest so that maybe Peter can go out there and go ahead and clean my white walls up. But, you know, I don't know if I'm win. You know, that was. That was last week. I don't know if you heard that Peter or not.

[Alan Hahn]

If Tesla wins the contest for ufc.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

It'll be the night of your life.

[Donnie]

Well, I don't understand.

[Alan Hahn]

She went to a game with Jake and with Bart. Oh, I heard it was a Knicks game, right?

[Tessa]

Yep.

[Alan Hahn]

And Bart still talks about it to this day. To this day.

[Donnie]

Listen, that's a hot contest right now. Everyone wants to be.

[Alan Hahn]

Everybody wants to hang out with you all about.

[Tessa]

Because as a person. As a person, Peter's awesome. Even on Hot 97.

[Carl Banks]

Awesome.

[Alan Hahn]

Wait a minute.

[Tessa]

But like, from fan to fan, like Don said a couple months ago, I hate his gut. You know what I'm saying?

[Carl Banks]

But.

[Donnie]

Hasn'T been very spicy with the Giants.

[Alan Hahn]

As a person, Peter's really nice.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But.

[Donnie]

But never like, never like that start.

[Tessa]

But yeah, as a fan. Yeah. No. Hate your guts kicking your throat, but I'm not gonna do it. Balance is not the answer. But as a person, dad, everything. He's the best. He's the best. I have a lot of respect for and as a wrestling fan.

[Alan Hahn]

All right, 100. We only have two minutes left. So what do you. How do you feel about your Giants right now that D is gone?

[Tessa]

I'm. I'm be honest with you. Yesterday I was at a tipping point and I really was about to like, stop watching football the rest of the season. So honestly, it makes me feel better. Do I want Shane gone after this season? Because he just, like Chris Keny said, he's accountable for a lot of things. Mike Kafka, no trash. You're done after this year. Okay, thanks for staying, but you're done after this year too. But I do have some coaches suggestions and I know Don said that.

[Chris Canty]

He did bring it up.

[Tessa]

No, I don't want Billich. These are just my suggestions. You said like, you know, this is far fetched for me. I wouldn't mind Nick Sable, Nick Saban or I know they. Neither one of them coming out of retirement. Nick Saban or. I know this is crazy. I'm gonna be like, Tessa, he's old now. What about Bill Cower? I just feel like that one of those two are the ones that Don is talking about. Like they can just come in and get that respect. We can't even tackle, so we need a coach on some Tom Coughlin stuff that blacked out just because they wasn't tackling the correct way. Like we need that. We need discipline. We just need the basics. We need the foundation built up. We have so many cracks in our foundation right now. We need it all tore down to the ground and we need to rebuild it.

[Carl Banks]

You know what you need?

[Alan Hahn]

You know what you're describing would be taking someone else's trash and making it your treasure. You feeling me, Peter? Don, you feeling me?

[Donnie]

That's that what you're looking for?

[Alan Hahn]

What you're describing, Tess, is basically what you're hoping for is that a franchise whose fan base has been fed up with A coach that they've had for a long time and the franchise finally decides to move on, or they both mutually part ways and he becomes available. And that is exactly the Tom Thibodeau type of coach you're looking for. You know who I'm talking about, don't you?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Mike Thomas.

[Alan Hahn]

Correct.

[Tessa]

Oh, my God.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh. If you watched the Steelers last night, like, it could start to turn Pittsburgh, man.

[Tessa]

Oh, guys, if we could just get. If we could just get. We just need somebody strong like that, like I do in the film Center. But we can't shake the foundation too much. But Shane Bowen is so responsible for the defense. I don't want to watch the next seven games of the defense doing what they doing right now. My TV might not be alive. None of my TVs, because my phone might be on the TV. But come up in here, whoever he brings. Like, listen, that DC at the Lions right now, that took over for Aaron Griffin. He's balling right now. Like, we need somebody like that for our defense. We have too many pieces for our defense not to be top 10. I'm telling you right now. We just need Salah. Let's say we have Salah over here. Are you kidding me? Our defense would be insane right now. You know what I mean? We need something like that. We need something like that if we can get Mike Thomas. I'm telling you right now, guys, I don't even know. Like, I. I don't know. I might have to go get, like, some help for excitement.

[Alan Hahn]

There you go.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Every Steeler family can have them.

[Alan Hahn]

It's amazing how many Steeler fans are just done with it because they've heard the voice over and over again. He hasn't won a playoff game in, what, 10 years?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, both could be true where they could be done with them, but, you know, other Giants would be like, I'll tell. I'll. We'll take 9 and 8, right? I'll take 10 and 7, right?

[Alan Hahn]

We'd love to be just. Just good every year, but doesn't.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Isn't that why.

[Donnie]

And this. I know this does not feel as sexy. This does not feel as sexy at all as Tomlin.

[Alan Hahn]

Here we go.

[Donnie]

But when you look at the results and you want to be more realistic, Mike McCarthy.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Donnie]

Is a guy. Don, you said it earlier. You said you're not thinking about championships necessarily immediately. You want to right the ship. You want stability, you want a leader of men. It's not sexy.

[Alan Hahn]

Kenny said, I'm just trying to hit a single right now.

[Donnie]

Mike McCarthy, he might be a double, not even a single. Might be a little extra base hit. It's not a home run. You're not running home from the screaming. But it's something.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But you can't have the audacity to think at this stage who's going to lead us to a Super Bowl. You're not even close to that right now. You're not even close to, you know, getting out of embarrassing. So just kind of stabilize things now. It'd be great if you found somebody young enough ain't good enough. He's here for the next 15 years and you win a bunch of Super Bowls with him. But right now, don't you kind of have to reset? Just get, just get back into the game.

[Donnie]

Hey, listen, Mike McCarthy and Mike Tomlin, last time I checked, they're jingling the same number of super bowl raising, aren't they? So hey, real quick guys. And they both had a great hall of Fame quarterback to get it done. That was happening, right?

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

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[Alan Hahn]

Yes, it is.

[Donnie]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Donnie]

I don't want to know how the.

[Alan Hahn]

Sausage is made, but I just want to know. It's good.

[Don Hahn]

Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.