Hour 2: Carl Banks joins the show

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg – Hour 2: Carl Banks Joins the Show

Release Date: March 11, 2025

Hosts: Don LaGreca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
Guest: Carl Banks, Hall of Fame Former New York Giants Defensive End and Entrepreneur

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1. Introduction of Carl Banks

The episode kicks off with the introduction of Carl Banks, a renowned New York Giants legend, entrepreneur, and the face behind the popular Starter Jackets collection. Hosts Don LaGreca, Alan Hahn, and Peter Rosenberg warmly welcome Banks, setting the stage for an engaging conversation that spans sports, business, and nostalgic reflections on the Big East Conference.

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2. Starter Jackets and the Big East Collection

Carl Banks delves into his latest entrepreneurial venture, the Beast Plural Collection, which pays homage to the legendary Big East Conference. He shares his inspiration drawn from the golden era of the Big East, highlighting iconic coaches and players who dominated college basketball.

“I’m gonna do a collection that pays homage to the Big East. So we call it Beast plural of the Big East. And it's celebrating great coaches, great players...”
[01:00]

Banks emphasizes the cultural significance of Starter Jackets during the Big East's heyday, noting their impact on fashion and fan culture.

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3. Carl Banks' Basketball History

Banks offers a personal narrative of his basketball career at Michigan State University from 1980 to 1984, detailing his recruitment by the legendary Magic Johnson.

“Magic personally recruited me. He’s the only reason I went to Michigan State.”
[02:54]

He recounts a memorable moment during a basketball camp where Magic’s competitive edge persuaded him to commit to Michigan State, illustrating the deep connections forged during his athletic career.

---

4. Reflections on the Big East Conference

The conversation shifts to the current state of the Big East Conference, with Banks expressing optimism about its resurgence.

“It's back in Georgetown. Phenomenal.”
[01:27]

He highlights standout players and teams, predicting a strong performance in the upcoming Big East Tournament and discussing the evolution of the conference’s competitive landscape.

---

5. Discussion on the New York Giants

a. Defensive Strategies and Quarterback Challenges

Alan Hahn steers the discussion toward the New York Giants, addressing their defensive focus and quarterback conundrum. Banks provides his expert analysis on the team's prospects and potential draft strategies.

“I suspect they will have one before the draft and they will probably draft one.”
[12:10]

b. Ownership and John Mara's Role

The hosts probe into John Mara's management of the Giants, debating his involvement in team decisions and the balance between heart and business in his leadership approach.

“He’s a supportive owner, but he doesn’t get in the way.”
[34:07]

Banks defends Mara against narratives of meddling, emphasizing his supportive role and long-standing relationship with the organization.

c. Player Contracts and Free Agency

The conversation touches on the complexities of NFL contracts, player valuations, and free agency dynamics. Banks advocates for fair compensation aligned with performance, critiquing teams that prioritize financial gains over team cohesion.

“I’m an advocate for players making as much as they can... if you get your money, get it.”
[30:52]

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6. NFL Rule Changes: The 'Tush Push' and Defensive Play

An in-depth discussion unfolds around the proposed banning of the 'Tush Push' in the NFL, exploring its implications for player safety and game strategy. Banks shares his perspective on how defenses can adapt to such rule changes.

“If you want it banned, just start taking shots on the quarterback...”
[42:49]

He recounts past experiences and emphasizes the need for defensive courage and adaptability in the face of evolving rules.

---

7. Team Parity and Performance in the NFL

Banks analyzes the concept of parity within the NFL, contrasting it with other sports leagues. He argues that while the league structures promote competitive balance, the dominance of a few elite teams persists.

“But there’s a lot of talented players, but they’re all average.”
[47:59]

He suggests that the key to success lies in strategic team building and flexibility in coaching, underscoring the importance of tailored game plans and player development.

---

8. Closing Remarks and Promotions

As the episode winds down, the hosts promote Banks' Starter Jacket collection available at Macy's Herald Square and Lids in Times Square. Banks highlights upcoming events and expresses his excitement for the Big East Tournament rollout.

“We're doing a good job. And part of that is celebrating starting tomorrow, the beast, plural, of the Big East.”
[11:20]

The podcast concludes with heartfelt thanks to Banks for his insights and participation, reinforcing the enduring camaraderie among the hosts and their guests.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Carl Banks on Magic Johnson’s Recruitment:

  “Magic personally recruited me. He’s the only reason I went to Michigan State.”
  [02:54]

• Carl Banks on Starter Jackets’ Cultural Impact:

  “Starter was doing what Jordan is doing to the emotions of fandom...”
  [06:50]

• Carl Banks on John Mara’s Leadership:

  “He’s a supportive owner, but he doesn’t get in the way.”
  [34:07]

• Carl Banks on Defensive Strategies:

  “If you want it banned, just start taking shots on the quarterback...”
  [42:49]

• Carl Banks on NFL Parity:

  “But there’s a lot of talented players, but they’re all average.”
  [47:59]

---

Conclusion

This episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg offers a multifaceted exploration of sports, business, and nostalgia through the lens of Carl Banks. From launching a tribute collection to dissecting the intricacies of NFL team dynamics, Banks provides valuable insights and candid commentary. The conversation underscores the blend of passion and expertise that makes the podcast a must-listen for sports enthusiasts and business aficionados alike.

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For those interested in Carl Banks' Starter Collection, visit Macy's Herald Square or Lids in Times Square. Stay tuned for more episodes featuring legendary guests and in-depth sports analysis.

Transcript

[Carl Banks]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Don LaGreca]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] this is done.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This happens a year. The resurgence of St. John's and all that.

[Carl Banks]

That's incredible. I had this. I had this thought over the summer and I was reminiscing with a friend of mine when the Big east was the Beast. Right. When you had the most legendary coaches and players. They had college basketball in the chokehold. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna do a collection that pays homage to the Big East. So we call it Beast plural of the Big East. And it's celebrating, you know, great coaches, great players. You know, starter was a part of that. And then, you know, the most. The most popular starter jacket in all of pop culture during that period. You should know that.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, I'm curious to where you're going to go.

[Carl Banks]

Georgetown. Hoyas.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Georgetown was the most. But that was the.

[Carl Banks]

The must have item.

[Alan Hahn]

Wow.

[Carl Banks]

And it's back in Georgetown. Phenomenal. I mean, I don't know if you guys follow the Big east much. And just for the record, because it's. Don's going to ask me. He's like, aren't you a Michigan State Spartan? Yes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was supposed to meet you.

[Carl Banks]

I'm in the Michigan State hall of Fame. And if Georgetown, I mean, if St. John's in Michigan State plays, I'm rooting for Michigan State.

[Alan Hahn]

All right.

[Carl Banks]

But if St. John's wins, it's a great consolation prize.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Especially with the business that you're in. But I just got this. You know me, I got my weird quirks.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That I just. I have trouble when people are fans of teams they didn't go to the school.

[Carl Banks]

It's all good. So I'll just make.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'll get over it.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, you will.

[Alan Hahn]

Like Dave Rothenberg and George Jack.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Exactly.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Like you are really, really having a hard time seeing him. He's draped in St. John's gear.

[Carl Banks]

But I guess I've been here 40 years.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Carl Banks]

I haven't Been Michigan State is, I'm in the hall of fame there. I'm gonna always root for Michigan State. But when I got here in the 80s, right, and I'm looking at basketball, oh yeah, St. John's was it. I fell in love with, you know, Mark Jackson and the Truth and Mullen and Whittington. I, you know, that was my, that was my team. And then the rivalries of, you know, the Big east was just incredible. So I'm like, yeah, I'm all in.

[Alan Hahn]

Carl, what year, what years were you at Michigan state?

[Carl Banks]

I was 80 through 84.

[Alan Hahn]

Now just. I've never asked you.

[Carl Banks]

Johnson recruited me to go there, so.

[Alan Hahn]

I was going to say so. So he, Magic literally showed up to.

[Carl Banks]

Magic personally recruited me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wow.

[Carl Banks]

He's the only reason I went to Michigan State.

[Alan Hahn]

So can you just tell us that story? Pretend someone hasn't heard like myself.

[Carl Banks]

Listen, I'm an old basketball player, right? So Magic and I first met in basketball camp and it was the first time he ever cheated me. He and Jay Vincent were playing me and another kid. Two on two. We had him down by two. It was game point. Magic called three seconds.

[Alan Hahn]

Wait, in a two on two game.

[Carl Banks]

Magic called three seconds.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Three seconds.

[Carl Banks]

But you know, the only thing at stake at that time was just like this huge duffel bag like, you know.

[Unknown]

The, the, the ball is on that Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Unknown]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.

[Dave Rothenberg]

All right into the 4 o'clock hour we go with Don Lagra and Peter Rosenberg. I'm Alan Hahn, our first in studio guest in the new studio. And why not make it a legendary player, somebody that I think one of the most beloved New York Giants in history. Two time super bowl champ.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Love this man.

[Dave Rothenberg]

All decade team in the 1980s, the Giants ring of honor. That of course is Carl Banks, who's also an amazing entrepreneur.

[Alan Hahn]

That's right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

As we know, he's the face of starter.

[Alan Hahn]

He is starter.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Oh yeah, certainly is.

[Alan Hahn]

Mr. Starter.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Good to see you.

[Carl Banks]

Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. To be the first man. Yeah, I can always say I was there. Lots of hiccups which normally happens, right?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, just a few.

[Carl Banks]

I'm in the same company with you guys today too. I have a Big east rollout that. Sure you do. Part of it hit the stores and part of it didn't and getting my face ripped off on social media. But guess what? It's going to be there for the big east tournament.

[Alan Hahn]

So when people show up at MSG tomorrow, well, they won't see St. John's until Thursday anyway. By the time Thursday night comes, they can get their St. John's Starter jacket.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, but it's just not St. John's I got all 11, everybody. Oh, all 11. Biggie's, the whole conference. Yeah, yeah. So go ahead.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But it was. How big is it that carrying bags back then?

[Carl Banks]

And we were looking at this bag, like we about to get this bag. And he called three seconds. And then him and Jay Vinson just. They had a 30 run on us and it was a wrap.

[Alan Hahn]

And then later he said, hey, you should come to.

[Carl Banks]

Well, we had become friends then. Right. I was being cruded. Michigan State was not very good at the time. They were literally just coming off probation. And Rogers, I forget his first name, went to Arizona State. The day after he recruited me, he went to Arizona State. And Magic was like, listen, if you come to Michigan State, I guarantee you'll have the best experience of your life. It's not a better campus in all of college, and they're not better people. And, you know, I took him at his word, and I didn't regret it.

[Alan Hahn]

You guys still close?

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Wow. Did you. Have you guys communicated all, like, about football? Now that Madrid's a football man.

[Carl Banks]

He's a.

[Alan Hahn]

He's, you know, where he is.

[Carl Banks]

I mean. Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Come here.

[Carl Banks]

Redskins. I can say Redskins owner.

[Alan Hahn]

That's right. We're happy to have him, too.

[Carl Banks]

But, you know, he was. He used to come to a lot of Giants game. Bill Parcells was a big basketball guy. He used to invite Magic and Bobby Knight all the time to be on our sidelines. And Magic is a huge football fan, too, so. But I haven't talked to him. Well, I have, but I haven't seen him since he took took over the team.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, it's been very cool. It's been very cool to have a man now.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You've been. You've been the starter brand that you resuscitated. I will say, you know, it has been something that, like, you are finding that it is, whether it's the NFL Jackets, which I think was. That was the first venture. Right. The old school starter jackets from the 80s that everybody loved. And it went there. Like, what has continued this for you? Like, is it just simply about nostalgia? Like, what has been the success of this emotional connection? Yeah.

[Carl Banks]

Right. And you're still wearing Jordans, right? How long has Jordan been retired? Right. So starter was before Jordan. Starter was doing what Jordan is doing to the emotions of fandom, right, with starter. And there's a starter story in every household, I guarantee you. So when we decided to bring the. The brand back, I talked it over with my kids and they were like, yeah, you should. And they didn't know, you know, I was. I wore starter. I was one of their first endorsees at the time. So I knew what it meant and I knew what it meant in pop culture. So when you look back on these moments, and like I said, I was reflecting this summer with, with a friend of mine, I was like, you know, you got Patrick Ewing, you got Allen Iverson, you got Ray Allen, you got Ed Pinckney, you got John Thompson, you're Jimmy behind. And it just goes on and on and on. And that's like, that's the greatest part of, of what this celebration is about for me. And then when I look at the Big east now, Aside from the five great players that St. John's has, the nation's leading three point shooter is Eric Dixon from Villanova. Right. Micah Peavey at Georgetown is a beast. Right. He actually beat Kadia Richmond out for all Big East, I believe, first team. So, I mean, it's just an Xavier shoots the ball. Well, and how about this? Big east is gonna have five or six teams out of the 11 in the tournament. Last time that happened, I think, was when they had three of the four teams in the final four.

[Dave Rothenberg]

1985.

[Carl Banks]

Yep.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah. That is incredible.

[Carl Banks]

So, I mean, it's a great time. But, you know, UConn used to wear starter uniforms. Right. So it's just. It's just so much that celebrating, I just wanted to pay homage to it. But also me being a Biggie's fan, right. Or in particular a St. John's fan, I had the opportunity to meet with St. John's hall of Famer John Warren. Now here's one you would love this one, Alan. Louis Con Secker coined the phrase swingman for John Warren.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Really?

[Carl Banks]

Yep. Because of his. He's. He's an old Nick too. He's an ex. He was on the championship team. But Conor Secker called him the original swing man because he could guard everywhere and he played inside and outside, so. And he was. He was great shooting percentage, like 80 from the line before his time, 79 from free throw. So he shot a lot of free throws too. But yeah, so I, you know, I got a chance. And he and RJ Lewis, I put. I got them together because we did a photo shoot. Oh, wow. @ St. John's and I told RJ, this is the OG swing, man, and you're the modern day swing. And their numbers were similar. But RJ doesn't shoot free throws like John Lauren did.

[Dave Rothenberg]

How personal is it, though, for you when you think about the connection that you have? Parcells wore a starter jacket on the sideline. Right.

[Carl Banks]

Didn't he?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Right. Like the images of that. So when you're bringing this back to life and then seeing it have the success that it's had, like, I remember the first time we talked years ago about the NFL bringing that back. The NFL Starter jackets I have still, the Black jets one that you gave me is just off the chart. It's one of my favorite jackets. But the fact that it was received the way it was. Did you expect that? Were you pleasantly surprised? What was your expectation when this all began?

[Carl Banks]

I expected you knew it was going to be this one. The relevance in sport and in culture that Starter has. And no other brand outside of a shoe brand.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah.

[Carl Banks]

And that's Nike has that type of adjacency and relevance. Right. Directly to sport and directly to culture. It's either one or the other. But Starter has both. And obviously Nike has both. Right. Or Jordan has both. So I knew what it would do. Because when I talk to young kids and they talk about taking their father starter jacket. Right. These kids, one kid out of college is like, I took my father's Notre Dame jacket and I'm from North Carolina. And that's exactly what Starter was. It was about if it was the UNLV running Rebels. Right. They were big in regions outside of Vegas.

[Alan Hahn]

Raiders big. Charlotte Hornets, Hornets big. San Jose. Sharks were big.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah. So. And this. And it's back like. And we're doing a good job. And part of that is celebrating starting tomorrow, the beast, plural, of the Big East. And you know, we're dropping at Macy's and Lids. And the beautiful part about it, though, is we have the Big East. Rewind with Chuck Everson. We have a lot of Big east legends that we're that gonna go live. A podcast live from in the middle of Macy's. And that's gonna be fun because they're gonna stop by and they're gonna talk. They're gonna tell stories. Four to six.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Four to six tomorrow.

[Carl Banks]

No, no, Thursday.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Thursday.

[Alan Hahn]

Four to six, Thursday.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So everybody. Everybody's wondering, too. This is again, Carl's biggest starter collection. 34th street, the Herald Square Macy's that we're talking about. Of course, Garden and also at Lids. And Peter, you were at this one right on 46th Street.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

The new lids on 42nd in Times Square.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So this is where you want to be. And if you want to find the collection. And it's all the Big east, the current Big east schools, then the St. John's stuff that you have on today, that jacket is. It just brings me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's incredible.

[Alan Hahn]

This is awesome. I mean, but we spend so much time on something that's so awesome. Let's talk about something that absolutely sucks. Yes, the New York Giants. What's going on here?

[Carl Banks]

I'm available for couples counseling if you'd like to go, but you're watching.

[Dave Rothenberg]

What we've seen, though, is they're trying to. It looks like the defensive side of the ball is where they're putting a lot of the money right now and trying to build that side up, which I'm sure you personally can appreciate it. But they don't have a quarterback.

[Carl Banks]

I suspect they will have one before the draft and they will probably draft one. One if one's available. It's a tough situation. Listen, I think these coaches know their jobs are on the line. It's no secret. Every move they make, they have to make it as if their job depended on it. But that's not a bad thing either. Right? Because if they're. If, you know, I don't know if they're going to be shopping hungry, but if you're. If you're drafting and doing things in free agency as if your job depends on it, then you're going to try to make it work.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I take exception to their jobs depending on it.

[Carl Banks]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think they. With a third overall pick, I think you could. I would have cleaned house. I would have started over.

[Carl Banks]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Or I'd extend them. I don't like drafting a young quarterback. Telling your coach and general manager when. Now. They don't. In all likelihood, with that schedule, with a young quarterback banging both of them and then having that young quarterback go through a second regime in his second year, you're stunting the growth of your franchise quarterback. Well, are you in or you out?

[Carl Banks]

So, again, and full disclosure, I like both Shane and Dable, but it's a results game. You're assuming that they won't fix it. Right. You're making the assumption that this opportunity, that they've been granted this one last chance, if you will, you're assuming that it won't work, and then they're gonna be back where they were with a young quarterback in another regime. I'm more of an optimist. I believe that they're gonna get things together, have enough success to get their contracts extended.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I hope you're right. But if you believe in them, Carl, then why not extend them?

[Carl Banks]

They might, that, let's see, as, as things go along, they might extend him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I'm, I'm trying. You, you're a former player. I'm trying to win free agents over. I'm trying to show my organization my new draft pack pick, their stability. But oh, by the way, another four win season, our general manager and head coach are gone. New offensive coordinator.

[Carl Banks]

Look, players understand that. They understand. Most of them that are free agents are probably free agents for a reason. They want a change of scenery or they want more money. Money talks. If anybody doesn't want to come to play in New York, it's because, and this is. I'm a part of this group too. It's because the media can be very scrutinizing and it's more comfortable in other cities, in other markets because the fan base of all New York sports, they look at things with a closer lens than other people and they're less forgiving. So I don't think whatever's going on with any of these teams in New York, you gotta want New York and you gotta want to succeed, right? And you want to be a part of something, building something. I don't think it has anything to do with coach, contrary to what a lot of people think. I don't. I think because if the money's right, they're going just like Miles Garrett said that he, his goal wasn't to go from Cleveland to Canton. Well, he's going from Cleveland to Canton because their general manager says if it ain't us, it ain't nobody. So money talks. And if you know these situations are right, they'll come.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, I just hope John Mara doesn't weigh it all on wins and losses, because maybe it does work.

[Carl Banks]

Carl.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But what if with a young quarterback at a tough schedule, you win five games, you're going to stick with them.

[Carl Banks]

You've got to show improvement, appreciable improvement. They took a step back defensively last year. There were so many things that I had problems with defensively. Offensively, they were dysfunctional and they had a lot of injuries. Right. But I think Brian Dabel is an excellent play caller and people are going to kill me for this. But if you look at their last game of the season with a quarterback who basically had probably the best game of his career against a team that was playing for something, and you saw how the offense worked that to me is telling me if he gets the right quarterback, that offense will work.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I felt like that when they made the playoffs that year, his first year. Yeah, that's the thing I said. I think they have a coach. It's the general manager and the decision making that they have had over the last couple of years that have been the concern.

[Carl Banks]

So here's the thing I will say about general manager and I don't think it's going to come as a surprise to anybody listening, is that I think he did not have a feel for the human aspect of players. And that rang true with Saquon Barker. And when you look at the Hard Knocks episode, and I don't know if it was Tim McDonald or John Mayer who said to him, Saquon Barkley is by far our most popular player, beloved in the community and in the locker room, that was basically giving you permission to give him a couple extra million dollars. Joe decided he did not want to do that. Now, the business is the business, right? But there's a human element in football is 11 guys, 11 different personality. If there's a glue guy in there who happens to be really good, he's worth keeping. And I'm glad he didn't make that same mistake this year because he kept Darius Slayton. A lot of people don't like the money. It's not really that much, all things considered with receivers. But he means more to the team than just that. And I'm glad that he's humanized the locker room from his lens more so than transactional. And I'm not saying that he's a guy who just doesn't care about players, but like when he puts his negotiation hat on, there are other actors that can.

[Dave Rothenberg]

No, you absolutely saw what he. He was almost like it was for him playing like fantasy football. These are just pieces that I'm moving together. He wasn't thinking about it. Somebody comfortable in New York that might want to stay in New York is Aaron Rodgers. The team doesn't have a quarterback. Aaron Rodgers being connected to the Giants as an option and might be the only option that they have. When the music stops, there's only one chair left. It could be his. Do you think that's the right fit for the Giants?

[Carl Banks]

If they think it's the right fit. If Brian Dable thinks he can work with him, then I'm going to be on board with it. Listen, I don't know Aaron personally to say bad things about him. I just know that it gets weird as seasons go on. Whether or not it's people that just decide they want to latch onto something about Aaron. But it just gets weird as season's gone and it seems like every off season people convince themselves that it's gonna be different, right? And his talent is unmistakable. Even at this age, his arm talent is still incredible, but it's just, it comes with stuff. And he'll tell you it has nothing to do with him, right. But it just gets weird. And if Brian Dable feels that this is a good fit for what he wants to do, I'm going to be on it 100%. But I don't know Aaron to say, right. Anything negative.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And I don't know if the Giants are in the place to have somebody like him, right. Like you know, if when he comes in it's this expectation of whoa, this is a Hall of Famer.

[Carl Banks]

This is.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You're supposed to win.

[Carl Banks]

Here's the thing about that. Aaron has to meet this team where they are in terms of.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Carl Banks]

You got the second youngest roster in football. It can't be you and then them. It's gotta be us, right? So that means you've gotta get yourself within the fabric of that locker room and help them change the culture. You're a winner, you're a multiple time mvp. You're gonna be a first ballot hall of Famer. They're gonna look up to you. But you gotta humanize yourself so that these kids can understand what it takes. Not just watching you, you, you can't just lead by example. You've got to be a leader within. You've got to mesh within the locker room.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think there's more baggage with Wilson than there is with Rogers.

[Carl Banks]

At least you know where Rogers is coming from, right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wilson was a diva in Denver. Half his teammates didn't seem to like him in Seattle. That worries me a little bit.

[Carl Banks]

Like I said, at least you know where Rogers is coming from.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I do think he's been humbled. I could be dead wrong about this whole Rogers. This is the two years went south.

[Carl Banks]

Every year we convinced him.

[Alan Hahn]

You're not buying it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They're not lining up.

[Carl Banks]

I don't. Look again whether he's humble or arrogant.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't know him.

[Carl Banks]

Right. I know he's got hella hella arm talent.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, I get it.

[Carl Banks]

And it gets weird.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It gets weird. But think about it.

[Carl Banks]

But if they feel that he's the guy that can help them and then bridge to whoever they draft, I don't.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Think it's going to get. I could be dead wrong about this. But I look at the jets, this is a guy with an ego. That ego is fueled by the fact that the jets said, here, take our team, we need a Super Bowl. That's not going to be the case with the Giants owner.

[Carl Banks]

Put a gold medallion around his neck, right? That ain't going to happen.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They're not lining me, Aaron Rodgers.

[Carl Banks]

They're boring compared to what the jets did. And that's not going to happen. So it's going to be about football. Yes. He will be respected. If he is a Giant, he'll be respected for who he is. Right. My only ask is that you have to meet this team, this locker room where they are. And I don't know if he's there. I know he's got an ego, but I don't know if I would call it arrogance. Cause I have no intern.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Whatever it is, there's something about him. I get weird.

[Alan Hahn]

I like Carl's description of it gets weird.

[Dave Rothenberg]

It gets weird.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It got weird with Russell Wilson too. It gets weird sometimes.

[Carl Banks]

But I'll tell you, you keep saying Russell. Yeah, I'm gonna say this. At least you know where Aaron Rodgers is coming from.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah. And that, that's.

[Carl Banks]

And that's not. You can't say the same about Russell. It's, it's, it's. I. I have had interactions. Right. And it's just, you know, the first time was great. The second time, he act like he didn't know me. So that's, that's why I said, by.

[Dave Rothenberg]

The way, you're not the first person to say that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, that was.

[Alan Hahn]

Which one? Russell or Aaron?

[Dave Rothenberg]

No, Russell.

[Alan Hahn]

He acted like he didn't know you.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, that's the thing. Two weeks later at the super bowl, he looked at me like he didn't even know me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, we joke about it on the air like, hi, I'm Russell Wilson. And there's hey, yo, Seattle. Like there seems to be two.

[Carl Banks]

But I mean, look again, if the Giants think he's a fit, I'm not his teammate. I just call games and I analyze and I call balls and strikes. That's all it is. So I don't have to be in the locker room with him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Speaking of which, I listen to you because I know you and you're great and watch the game because I can't get anything from the national guys. I want to get the Giant perspective. The thing I love about you, you're honest. You've never gotten in trouble. They never hit me aside and say, carl, man, tone it down, man. You're Killing us.

[Carl Banks]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So that's awesome.

[Carl Banks]

The mantra from our late owner, Wellington Mara, is that our fans deserve to hear the truth. And as long as you don't make it personal, meaning calling a guy out of his name, he has no problem because he wants the fans to hear what we see. And we don't carry pom poms. And so that's why we're able to do what we do. But I'm just. On behalf of all broadcasters in this city, we got the best in the business, every single team. There's not baseball, basketball, hockey, football. There's not there. You can, you can line them up nationwide. There won't be any. A better set of broadcasters than we have in this.

[Alan Hahn]

But you and, but you and Bob really are. You guys are top tier.

[Carl Banks]

I mean, we're fans of everybody. Like, we're fans of Alan. Monica McNutt is a huge. I'm a huge fan of. She's phenomenal. Right. And so. But they speak in a language that people want to hear. You don't have to gloss over things. People want to know if you are an expert in something. People want to know about that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And that's what New York demands.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, it's worse. It's worse for the business if you're somebody that does glaze over.

[Alan Hahn]

Like glaze being the main word. Especially if you talk about my guy, London Fletcher down in Washington. I love the man, but some of.

[Dave Rothenberg]

These other markets, it's hard to listen.

[Carl Banks]

Like when the Giants have early games and I'm riding home and I put on satellite radio and I'm just going from station to station, I'm like, you know, I know it's different.

[Alan Hahn]

No, it's different.

[Carl Banks]

It's very soft.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And they don't think that. They don't think that. They're like, well, you guys think you're so much better. It's like, no, not better. We just different. We sound different than you do.

[Carl Banks]

No, we are. Okay.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You can say we are.

[Carl Banks]

As a collective New York broadcasters, I will put up against any you've been doing.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You had 20 years doing it.

[Carl Banks]

Close to it, yeah.

[Dave Rothenberg]

When did you start?

[Carl Banks]

I can't remember.

[Dave Rothenberg]

It feels like you've been doing it forever.

[Carl Banks]

I was a sideline reporter. Then when Dave Jennings unfortunately passed, it was a three man booth. Me, Bob and Dick Lynch. And then Dick passed. So it happened right around the time Dave Jennings passed away.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So every year, regardless of the team, because that's been the hardest thing for me with the Knicks some years is that you have enthusiasm and then it's November, so.

[Carl Banks]

And then you lose that.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Do you still have that?

[Carl Banks]

For me and Bob, we're never without something to talk about.

[Dave Rothenberg]

That's true.

[Carl Banks]

Right. So if it's a winning season, we get to talk about that. If it's a losing season, we get to tell you why.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's what's great about New York is, is that no matter how bad the team is, the games still matter.

[Alan Hahn]

Correct.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The fans still care.

[Dave Rothenberg]

That's right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It is true. They're not gonna go, walk away, do something else. They're gonna be die hard. They're gonna be watching, they're gonna be listening. So they're gonna want that honest analysis.

[Carl Banks]

And that's why. So free agents don't want to come in this market.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh yeah, because you're going to hear it.

[Carl Banks]

I mean, you've seen Alan, you've seen firsthand a lot of oh yeah. Basketball players who couldn't wait to get out of here because they thought they.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Couldn'T believe it was great.

[Carl Banks]

And then next thing you know how.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Many coaches too have come through in other sports and they think they can handle and they realize that it's a different Alan.

[Alan Hahn]

Should we, should we make, should we make a call? What should we do here?

[Carl Banks]

I don't know.

[Alan Hahn]

Like, I think, I think we should kick enn.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You want to do it?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Kick it.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You want. Do you got time?

[Alan Hahn]

Do you have 10 more minutes?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Why don't we just have to talk with Carl?

[Alan Hahn]

We haven't hit all the NFL stuff.

[Dave Rothenberg]

That's what I was thinking.

[Alan Hahn]

Let's kick in to 6:00.

[Dave Rothenberg]

6:00.

[Alan Hahn]

Like it should be.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Like it, like, like, like it ought to be.

[Alan Hahn]

And then let's keep Carl for 10 more.

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[Unknown]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Unknown]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dave Rothenberg]

All right, Don Han Rosenberg here with Carl Banks hanging out with us here in the studio. I'm talking some starter jackets, talking some Big east, talking some NFL and the Giants and everything else. I always think of the OGs when new contracts come out. I love sitting next to Clyde and when an NBA contract is signed or an extension is there. I was talking about Luka Doncic and I told him, well, they didn't want to pay him $345 million. And the look on his face, you know, when he sees those numbers. So when I tell you, you know, like Miles Garrett, defensive player, is getting $40 million a year and $123 million guaranteed. Like, does that resonate with you ever anymore or.

[Carl Banks]

No, it sinks in now. And here's the thing that I think fans have to separate because the numbers are so huge that it's never in context in their mind, right? It's they're paying this guy X amount of dollars and he's not X, Y and Z. But the collective bargaining agreement allows for these guys to make money and you know, the type of money that the leagues, all of them bringing in now from gambling and, you know, not just the fan duels, but like some states of, you know, have legalized gambling, that money's going in their pockets. So there's a revenue sharing model. So I wouldn't feel bad for the kids that are making the money unless you feel bad for the teams that are pocketing the.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Oh, I always say that, right? What do you want them to do with the money? Put it in their pocket. Somebody's got to do it.

[Carl Banks]

I'm an advocate for players making as much as they can. I do require that they play well and not just get the money and cruise with it, but I, you know, if you get your money, get it. And I'm, you know, that $300 million for me would probably. Would have been like a $10 million contract, right. Or for Clyde, $300,000 contract, which is just.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, it is relative to the time, of course. Right.

[Carl Banks]

I mean, look, the money, the, the licensing and all the other things that factor in. Great. And again, as fans look at it, it's just. The money is just not comprehendable. And then they say, well, he's not a. Not worth that much. But yeah, they paid him that much because that's what he's worth. And so I say players are worth every penny that they're. They're able to get from teams. I just don't like players. I despise players who get paid in crews. Like I, I demand. If you get. If you're a top dollar, then play at that level.

[Alan Hahn]

You're. What was your first, not your rookie deal? What was the next contract you signed?

[Peter Rosenberg]

What was it?

[Carl Banks]

I don't know if I made my. I think a salary of about a million five.

[Alan Hahn]

And relative to the world, you know.

[Dave Rothenberg]

We can find this stuff, right?

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, it's there. Tell me what it is.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I'm gonna check it out.

[Alan Hahn]

But at that time, let's. Let's suppose it was around a million five. It's still not apples to apples. Like inflation doesn't explain that. Right. Like a million five was a lot of money then, but it was not absolutely insane.

[Carl Banks]

No. Because ownership still had the upper hand. Right. The collective bargaining agreement did not call for revenue sharing. Right. We were fighting so that these young kids now have that. But it was, you know, teams could dictate how much you make and they could create a structure where your quarterback's going to be the only one on the team, team that makes money. You could demand a trade and you couldn't get.

[Alan Hahn]

What would you. What do you think? Honestly, if you were up this year, right. This is year five for Carl Banks. What do you think?

[Carl Banks]

You'd.

[Alan Hahn]

What do you think the Carl Banks deal would look like right now?

[Carl Banks]

So if Miles Garrett got 40.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Carl Banks]

Right. Lawrence Taylor would get 60. I would be probably around 35, right? 35. 42.

[Alan Hahn]

Bad.

[Carl Banks]

No, not at all.

[Alan Hahn]

It would have been all right.

[Carl Banks]

Lawrence would get 60. I think Micah Parsons is going to be pushing 60. He's the best defensive player in football. Most dynamic. But yeah, I mean, it's more power to him, man. I'm happy, I'm happy for him, you.

[Alan Hahn]

Know, it worked out for you. Listen, we're not. We're not. I'm not feeling bad. He's had to work his tail off.

[Peter Rosenberg]

To be able to do what he's doing. I know you don't mind working. Carl, help me out. You know, a big Giant fan. I am. And I want to talk about John Mara. We understand the significance of the Mara family, but how culpable is he to where the Giants are right now, allowing maybe his heart to get in the way, being too much of a fan, how much responsibility lays at his feet?

[Carl Banks]

Well, there's a narrative out there that I don't know how it got so much, so much momentum about how he's a meddlesome owner. He's far from Jerry Jones. He doesn't, you know, he supports his coaches. Right. He gives his coaches and his management whatever they need. If they tell him he. They need something, he does it. Yeah. He's a football person. He grew up around the game. He grew up in the game. Right. But he doesn't play fantasy football. And I know people, you know, this narrative took off that John Merritt needs to sell the team, blah, blah. I don't have that relationship with him, and I've known him 35, 40 years. Right. And that's not what is being said now. I don't tell people that. People can think whatever they want. I don't have those arguments. But that's not who he is. He's a supportive owner, but he doesn't get in the way. Right. Like, he has favorites. If he wanted to really lay a heavy hand and show, you know, who's the boss, Saquon Barkley would be a Giant. True.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, he clearly wanted him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I guess my criticism of him. I know he's not Jerry Jones because there's no ego there. He's not trying to prove to everybody how much he knows.

[Carl Banks]

But he's not a Metal scout. No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I do think that sometimes he led with his heart, which in business is not the easiest idea.

[Carl Banks]

When you say that, can you give.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Me, I think the whole thing with Saquon.

[Carl Banks]

Well, if he led with his heart with Saquon, Saquon would be a Giant.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I understand that, but why didn't they trade him? Did he get in the way of that? Because they could if everybody in the organization felt like he's not staying.

[Carl Banks]

So again, if he support. If he hired a general manager and said, do your job and you tell me this is what we should be doing, even if I don't like it, I'm gonna let you do it. And so they didn't trade him because Joe Shane didn't want to trade him. Right. He didn't go in and say, don't trade him. He didn't say, go trade.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And then that was a fatal error by the general manager. And that, to me, leads me to a place where, okay, so you didn't trade him when we could have gotten some value for him. And then famously, everybody saw me say, I'll lose sleep if he goes to the Eagles. You know how valuable he is to this organization. And you still didn't sign. I mean, how many hints does somebody have to give you before you realize we probably need to find, Like, I know. I can't imagine how you would operate in this, but I know how I would. And if my boss is sending me that kind of a signal, then I know, all right, I gotta sign. I gotta sign this guy because.

[Carl Banks]

And if it doesn't work out, they only be like, that was a layup for him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But here, I'll give you the perfect example, because it does get back to Saquon. I believe where he led with his heart was the whole handling of Eli, trying to get Eli another championship. It was his dad's last draft pick. Let's get Eli a championship. Let's draft Saquon when it doesn't make any sense to draft a quarterback at 2. Let's give a ton of money to Solder, let's try to double, triple, quadruple down on getting Eli a championship. And I think it really dug a deep hole. And then, because he led with his heart, then when he needed to step in on Saquon, he laid out, because I think he was sensitive to the criticism of leading with his heart. When he should have stepped in, he didn't.

[Carl Banks]

Donnie, you're again assuming that he's that involved. And again, he empowers the people to make these decisions. If the world is saying, don't draft a running back in the first round, and Dave Gettleman said he's been touched by the hand of God, he said, if you think so, go do it right now. It turned out that Dave Gelman was right, but Nate Solder and all these other guys, they had bad evaluators is what they had.

[Alan Hahn]

I did.

[Carl Banks]

That's what it is. The talent.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So. So.

[Carl Banks]

All right, but see, it's. Again, I'm not gonna try to kill the narrative. I'm just telling you the experience I have, which is different from a fan and different from you. Right, Because I've known him and I know how he operates for 40 years. He's not that guy. But if you think so, go ahead. But I can tell you every time you say he led with his heart because he signed Nate. He didn't sign Nate Solder.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But Gettleman wasn't of the opinion that or there wasn't a feeling in the air of let's get Eli another title. And wouldn't that come from John more so than Gettleman?

[Carl Banks]

I think everybody wanted Eli to get go out on top. But was there a better option than Eli?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't know if there was a better option than Eli, but clearly it wasn't going to work.

[Carl Banks]

If you wanted Eli to get that next championship when his offensive line was slowly matriculating out of the league, it should have been incumbent upon and this is when offensive lineman could be developed. Those, those decision makers in personnel should have been getting the right type of offensive lineman instead of getting behind you.

[Dave Rothenberg]

They were.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Carl Banks]

And then picking up.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

They were not forecasting what was coming and being prepared for it, which is.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What a good thing is. I think you're misunderstood. I don't think he's meddlesome. I don't think he's heavy handed. I just think he's John Mac. He is a. No, I'm saying he leads with his heart. I think it's understood.

[Carl Banks]

What does that mean?

[Peter Rosenberg]

It means up until you're leading with your heart. Right now, that's what I do. And most times it works, but there's times it's a mistake.

[Carl Banks]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But up until he brought in Shane, usually all of his general managers had a connection to the franchise. People know what John Marrow wants. They understand what's in the room. Gettleman was a former scout. Finally he went outside the organization when he brought in Shane. And then you started to see some changes. But I just think it's an understanding we want Eli to win. Did he ever say Eli's got to win? You've got to draft Saquon Barkley. No, he's not Jerry Jones. But I'm just wondering if the air in the room was we got to get another title for Eli because that's what John Mara is going to want.

[Carl Banks]

You know what quarterback hell is?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know, I think the Giants are in it now.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I've lived in.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah. That means when you lose a star and you ain't you, you've gone 10 years trying to replace him. Right. So if you want to try to try to extend or prolong your best player's career. Then I think the biggest mistake was not getting an offensive line. Eli used to get beat up.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, the mistakes were wrong.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Let's leave it here. Let's leave it here. We're gonna just keep Carl here for a little bit longer.

[Unknown]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Unknown]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Don Han, Rosenberg with Carl Banks here in studio. We locked him in here for the whole hour, Donnie. We had to. Don't get this. Don't get this opportunity to do it right. That's the whole point.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A soon to be hall of Famer in my eyes. We have wake up.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So I wanted to ask you, Carl. So our Dave Rothenberg was an executive producer on a vice vehicle. The case for Bill Belichick, the Brady versus Belichick, the verdict. And you obviously have some extensive history with Bill Belichick, so you certainly have knowledge there. What was it like working with Dave Rothenberg?

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, what a pleasure for you.

[Carl Banks]

Dave was awesome. I mean, it was a great show and he was easy. He wasn't heavy handed. You know, he didn't lead with his heart. He just let us do what we do.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Took a shot at Don right there.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, I didn't even. I didn't even pick up on it. You're right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Didn't leave with his heart. He said, of all. Of all people, too. Rothenberg not leading with his giant.

[Alan Hahn]

Not what you describe football and the Giants specifically.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Surprisingly, that's a good place to get it from Carl Banks. So I'll live that.

[Carl Banks]

You know, we kid each other all the time. And I get it from your brother more than I get it from you. He's ruthless, by the way.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes, he is.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Now, speaking of ruthless, I've been wanting to ask you this question all hour and I was waiting for the appropriate time. This has to be it. So there's this push now, no pun intended, in the NFL to ban the tush push.

[Carl Banks]

Right?

[Dave Rothenberg]

This whole. The thing that Eagles do, the Bills do it as well. And this whole idea that it's about player safety and everything else and the pushback is, well, you're not good at it, so of course you want it banned. Two things I want to ask, number one, do you think it should be banned? Two, how would you have defended it?

[Carl Banks]

So I'll take the latter. First, if you want it banned, just start taking shots on the quarterback, jump over the center and hit the quarterback.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Like Frankie Louvo was doing.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, yeah. I mean they penalized him one inch every time because it was down on the goal line. But you know what, you hitting the quarterback every single time and the league wants to protect quarterbacks. So that's what I. And I've done that before. We were going against Dallas and me and Pepper Johnson pre planned this like we're going to jump over the center and hit the quarterback and Danny White.

[Alan Hahn]

What we talking about?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Who's the quarterback?

[Carl Banks]

I think it was. Yeah, I think it was White. Who doesn't like you. Yeah, he doesn't. But here's the thing. Defensive coordinators don't have the courage to do that while you let an offense have its way with you. And look, if you want to line up and hurt my guys, your guy, the most exposed guy there is, the guy who's getting the ball, jump off Sites and hit him a couple times.

[Alan Hahn]

And when it happened in that playoff game, you know, as you don't even.

[Carl Banks]

Have to hurt him, just go off Sites and hit him.

[Alan Hahn]

I hit him. And as you know, I'm a commander's fan. So in that game I was very frustrated because Frankie Luvu said, you know what, I'm going to try to time it over and over again. And then of course the refs come out and say if you do it again, we're going to. I wish the refs had awarded the Eagles a touchdown. I think if the. Because we were going to lose anyway. If the refs had awarded them a touchdown, I think we'd be even further along to them coming up with a rule change because it would have been.

[Carl Banks]

So insane to do that in the field of play. You can't, you cannot suspend a guy for jumping off sides.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Carl Banks]

He jumps offside. As long as you don't take a cheap shot at the quarterback and you just hit him. Hey, I jumped.

[Alan Hahn]

I'm trying to time it. You guys are trying to time it. I were trying to time it. Did you put us at a disadvantage?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Were you aware of that rule? Because I think there was 99% of people watching football had no idea that to the officials discretion they could penalize the team that continues to take penalties by rewarding points.

[Carl Banks]

I don't know if they would do. I did not know that. But I don't know if they would do that in the field of play. But it was just like you're on the 1 inch line, like that's why I thought it was brilliant that Louvo kept doing it. Because what's the worst that can happen. They move the ball another inch, but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They keep wanting to ban the play. Why don't you just go back to, you can't aid the ball carrier?

[Carl Banks]

Well, that. But look, if this is going to be a part of it, I would say to defensive coordinators, have some guts, have some courage, and tell your guys to go hit the quarterback. Because most of the rule changes in the league has come from something that defenses have done, right? The two step rule went to a one step rule because we used to knock the crap out of Dan Marino because you couldn't sack him. And literally we're in a meeting with Bill Belichick and I don't know if I proposed it or somebody. I said, it's the rule and Bill's big on the rules, right? So I said, if the rule is we get two steps and we can't get his releases so fast, why don't we take advantage of the two steps? So that whole game he cried like nobody ever did it. Everybody was just like, we're not gonna hit him. He just can't be hit. We hit him as if we were sacking him every time because we had two steps. The next season, they took that out of the league. So it's, if you want to get something out of league, exploit the rule to your advantage.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And one thing that Bart Scott used to tell me all the time was he would do is instead of trying to like jump over, you wait till they go down and then you jump over, land on them. And I know that's dirty, but he's like, it's legal. Like, I'm just jumping in the air. I'm sorry I landed on you, but you decided to lay flat, correct? And then he said, you'll see guys making business decisions knowing that you're going to do that. But as you said, they don't do that anymore.

[Carl Banks]

You hit him enough times like that and never know. I just, see, I just think defensive coordinators need more courage in doing that. And they're, you know.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So you think if you did that, then it would be like, then they.

[Carl Banks]

Would make the quarterback.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So rather than ban it, make them ban it.

[Carl Banks]

Yeah, exactly. That's the only rule change comes when something the defense does that's legal, but the offense cries about it so much that they make it illegal. It is true, right? You can't tackle in certain areas. Why? Because the offense couldn't advance the way it did. So they took something out and they changed the rules. So if you want a rule change, that's how you do it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Why do you think we've seen parity in all the other sports? Why does football, which is supposed to have the most parity, seem to have more repeat champions? Why does it sound. I don't want to say easier to win, but it seems like knocking those guys off are harder in the other sports.

[Carl Banks]

It's easy. You do have parity. NFL. 80% of the teams are the same. And it's the elite four that you see every year. Kansas City, Philadelphia, Buffalo, in the Ravens. Everybody else is just. Just the same. They're average. You can. You can talk about the kid, the quarterback in Jaden. Yeah. No, no, no. I'm talking about the kid in San Diego.

[Alan Hahn]

Or Herbert.

[Carl Banks]

Herbert was the next guy. Right. He hasn't gotten his team anywhere. But there's a lot of talented players, but they're all. The parody is that they're all average. Right. That's why I don't think it's hard to get your team back on track, because it's basically the elite four. And 80% of the rest, the rest of the league, are just.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And because there's fewer and fewer great quarterbacks.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Right, exactly.

[Carl Banks]

So you can fix your team. You get the right pieces in place and you actually stand for something. What type of team you're going to be. If you're going to be a team that runs the ball, if you're going to be a team that, you know, runs a spread offense, you've got to. You've got to really refine that. And I took. Detroit is another team that's going to be there all the time. But it's. It's, you know, you just got to define who you are and build your team towards that. And, you know, defensively, you've got to have some flexibility. You can't. You can't look at a roster and say, well, I can't do certain things with it. You got to be able to adjust so that your players can be, you know, their best players. And that's been a criticism of Mines with Shane Bowen. And again, I'm not even crapping on him. I think he's a competent and capable defensive coordinator. But you saw Deontay Banks worst year, you saw Bobby Okarake's worst year. And I'm like, these are two of your best players. How come you're not doing enough to get them to be their best? And then you have a spate of six or eight games where teams are running for over 150 yards on you and they're running the same two plays, right? You gotta have some flexibility. You can't sit there and say, and I, again, I don't know him to that level. And I don't know if this is what he's saying, but it looks to me like he's like, okay, I'm gonna just keep playing with the guys I got and they'll get it figured out. No, why don't you stunt them? Why don't you do something to stop? Yeah. They have teams. They know what they're doing without.

[Dave Rothenberg]

When Wink left. Things look totally different defensively for this team.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You still develop players in this league because the jump from college to pros is gargantuan.

[Carl Banks]

But here's the other thing, too. When guys come from systems, right? And you see this a lot with Belichick, guys, they want to be just like Belichick, and they fail. Being that. Because it's always the intangibles that Belichick has. They. They look at the surface, like the discipline and attention to detail and all these things. But it was more than that with Belichick. He had instincts. He developed instincts just from communicating with players. He was uber flexible in. He will tell. He will have a meeting every off season, the first training camp or the first ota, and he'll look, he'll say, based on our roster, this is the type of defense we're going to be. We're going to play more man coverage or we're going to be more zoned. And we just work that. Right?

[Dave Rothenberg]

It wasn't a system. It was. What was. What did we have? This is how we have to play. I mean, that's just.

[Carl Banks]

Nowadays you have defensive coordinators. This is my system. Yeah, it's like serving.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You have to fit, right?

[Carl Banks]

No, it's not. That's not how it works. You've got great players. Be flexible enough to do that. But what happens is that guys come from systems and you say, oh, boy, he was. He was part of Jeff Fisher's system or he was part of Wade Phillips system. And then he doesn't do as well as Wade because they don't. Or Belichick or whoever it is, or Vrabel. Right? It's because they don't have the instincts. They only looked at the surface. Right. They didn't ask the why question. Well, why did he do this? He just. He took the playbook and he installed it. But in. Bart talks about this a lot. You are something until you're not. And one injury away from not being what you were. Right. So now you've Got to make the adjustment. If you're a defensive coordinator who cannot make an adjustment, if your best player goes down or one of your key players goes down or an average player, then you're not really worth the job. You're doing well. Well, no, let me say that. Let me rephrase that, because people are gonna take it somewhere. You need to be better at your job. Let's just put it that way. Yeah. Because it's more of that in the league than not. But you see the good defenses in this league, they are the ones who can make adjustments on the fly, or they tailor game plans towards what their opponents are strong at, and they take it away. And a lot of these guys with systems, they just roll the system out and they just sit and watch guys fail. And if, you know you got a cornerback in Deontay Banks who was ascending, then he descended, figure out why. Right. He was a better press man, cover guy. Put him in cover two or play zone with him in. Man, there's a lot of ways you can do that. You can adjust your safety, give the safety a little more responsibility and let him do what he does best. Or, you know, Bobby O'Kerake was a tackling machine, was absent a lot prior to his injury. It just didn't look like he had a fit there. And if I'm a defensive coordinator, I'm going to look at my team. I'm saying, he's good, he's good, he's good. I got to make sure these guys. Because it's mutually beneficial. Right. But when Dexter Lawrence leaves the team with injury, everything falls apart. You can't do that. That's not how you coach in this league. You've got to be able to make adjustments, and you've got to sit if you're by yourself or whatever. You just got to look at your personnel and say, okay, I know this guy can do this. So against the run, I'm going to make sure we are in this front, right? Or we can gap or we can slant or stunt and play a coverage behind it. That's what real defensive coordination is about. And I'm not just saying this about Shane Bowen. I'm talking about the majority of these defensive coordinators in the league. And you can see it because it's bad defense played all over the league. That is why you see it the way you do. And then you see teams like The San Francisco 49ers consistently good and they.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Just find the players that fit, but.

[Carl Banks]

They make adjustments, too.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Carl, we got to leave it there. It's been wonderful having you here in studio. We thank you so much. We remind everybody again, you can find Carl's Big east starter collection at 34th Street, Herald Square, Macy's and the Lids on 42nd street in times Square. And you definitely want to check it out. If you love nostalgia, love the Big east. You love fashion and show up on.

[Carl Banks]

Thursday if you want to really see.

[Dave Rothenberg]

There you go.

[Carl Banks]

Some really cool Big east legends. Talk Big east basketball.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Awesome, man.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Great stuff.

[Alan Hahn]

Thanks everybody.

[Carl Banks]

I'm so happy to be the first and you extended this opportunity.

[Dave Rothenberg]

God bless.

[Carl Banks]

You know, you didn't just run me through the car wash and say next guy, you know, this is awesome.

[Dave Rothenberg]

They extended you. We took you all the way into the five o'clock hours. A quick break. We'll get back to all the news and everything else. Stay with us. Don Han, Rosenberg 880 ESPN.

[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Unknown]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know.

[Carl Banks]

It's good.

[Unknown]

Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 880 ESP, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.

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