Hour 2: HoF Coaches & Players & Let's Talk About It

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast Episode

Hour 2: HoF Coaches & Players & Let's Talk About It
Date: August 11, 2026
Hosts: Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
Theme: Examining the rare sports figures who could be Hall of Famers both as coaches/managers and as players, followed by a deep dive into confusing (and hilarious) baseball rules and real-life scenarios

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Alan Hahn and Peter Rosenberg take on the fascinating, nuanced question: Are there any sports legends truly worthy of the Hall of Fame as both a player and as a coach/manager? Callers join in with their suggestions, sparking lively debate and deep-cut sports trivia. In the second segment (“Let’s Talk About It Tuesday”), the crew unpacks recent, bizarre baseball incidents that highlight the quirks of MLB rules, replay reviews, and the unpredictable drama that only sports can deliver.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Hall of Fame as Both Player and Coach/Manager (00:43–22:33)

Setting the Stage

• Rosenberg opens with listener suggestions for Hall of Fame coaches and players, noting just how rare it is for someone to make it as both.
  • Quote [02:16, Rosenberg]: “Has there ever been a player that was a Hall of Fame player and then would have gone to the hall of fame just as a manager, as a head coach?...I don't think so.”

Notable Candidates & Their Cases

• Rod Brind'Amour: Great NHL player and successful coach, but “not a Hall of Fame player” (Rosenberg [00:58]) by the strictest standards.
• Gil Hodges: Hall of Fame as a player (finally inducted), but not as a manager—one World Series as a manager isn’t enough ([01:28–02:12], Rosenberg & Hahn).
• Lenny Wilkens: “Robert is going to suggest Lenny Wilkens…” but ambiguity over which hall entry was more significant ([03:12–03:15], Rosenberg).
• Bill Russell: Inducted as player and coach, but on coaching “it was more honorary...he wasn't a great head coach” ([03:34–03:44], Rosenberg).
• Joe Torre: “The managerial stuff got him in…wasn’t like...a Hall of Fame [player]” ([03:41–03:48], Don & Rosenberg).
• Yogi Berra: Clearly in as a player, not as a manager despite great moments (World Series with the Mets and bench coach stints) ([04:05–04:37]).
  • Quote [04:05, Rosenberg]: “Well, Yogi Berra wasn’t underrated as a player...He’s in the hall of fame as a player.”
• Mike Ditka: “...an elite tight end career, good head coach…That Bears team is famous,” but how much was him vs. Buddy Ryan? This was the closest anyone got to a true double HoF ([07:40–09:47]).
  • Quote [07:53, Rosenberg]: “Shane, you probably came up with the closest.”
• Tommy Heinsohn: “Great player…great success as a coach.” One of the best candidates ([06:45–07:02], Don & Rosenberg).
• Frank Robinson: Good manager, but “not Hall of Fame success” ([07:25–07:29], Don & Rosenberg).
• Junior Johnson (NASCAR): “Won 50 races as a driver, then won multiple championships as a crew chief...that’s why he was in the inaugural class of the NASCAR Hall of Fame” ([12:46–13:25], Caller & Rosenberg).
• Dawn Staley: Both hosts agree she’s a “clear cut” HoF as WNBA player, phenomenal coach at South Carolina. “That’s the conversation,” says Don. Both think she could be the NBA’s first female head coach ([18:05–19:45]).
  • Quote [19:03, Don Hahn]: “If I were running a franchise...Dawn Staley would be on my list.”

The Challenge for Greats Becoming HoF Coaches

• On why it’s so rare: Massive stars often don’t work their way up; they expect (and are expected) to land top jobs, which often leads to quick exits and lack of experience ([04:40–05:56]).
  • Examples: Wayne Gretzky, Patrick Ewing, Mark Messier.
  • Quote [05:04, Rosenberg]: “Ewing’s not going to go coach in the G League for a couple of years, get his bone… Mark Messier is not going to want to go to the AHL and go coach… Give these guys a job right away…he wasn’t ready…gets fired…never gets another job again.”

Callers’ Creative (but Usually Unsuccessful) Attempts

• Many names like Willie Randolph and Dan Reeves suggested and refuted for not being HoF in both roles ([14:02–15:45]).
• The bar: Not just borderline or “make the case”—it needs to be clear-cut, slam dunk, both as player and coach ([16:13–16:46]).
  • Quote [16:22, Don Hahn]: “It can’t be debatable...If you tell me you could make the case, then he’s not a Hall of Famer.”

Notable Quotes & Segments

• [08:28, Rosenberg]: “You could make the case...greatest seasons back to back...the Saints thing was bad...was he a Hall of Fame coach?” (on Ditka)
• [19:45, Rosenberg]: “She’d be really good...” (on Staley coaching in the NBA)
• [13:20, Don Hahn]: On how rare it is for a great driver to become a great crew chief: “It’s really not easy to do. A great driver doesn’t always make a great crew chief…for Junior Johnson, it certainly worked.”

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II. “Let’s Talk About It Tuesday”: The Nuances and Absurdities of Baseball Rules (24:33–52:32)

The Replay Rabbit Hole

• Mets Ground Rule Double Snafu ([24:33–25:52])

  • Rosenberg rants about a replay fiasco that wastes time and ultimately changes nothing: “Four minutes of my life...to confirm he was going to be at second…Where else you gonna put him?” ([25:23–25:53]).

• Toronto Blue Jays/Boston Red Sox Timing Play Chaos ([26:09–33:14])

  • A wild play where players and coaches lose track of the outs due to a scoreboard error, leading to a blown double play and a 16-minute replay review to decide if a run scored.
  • Notable moment [29:04, Rosenberg]: “If you’re getting an announcement on a PA system...if the first word he’s saying is ‘okay,’ be worried. Because this is a guy that’s really unsure…”
  • Rule confusion: The run was allowed because the defense failed to appeal, despite both runners not tagging up.
  • Quote [30:35, Rosenberg]: “After calling New York...the run is going to score, which...that doesn’t make sense.”

Callers Weigh In with Rule Knowledge

• Hondo from New Brunswick (43:31–44:56)
  • Explains double appeals and why untagged bases don’t matter unless appealed, confirming the umpire’s ruling.
  • Quote [44:34, Caller]: “Technically as a runner, you never have to tag up…if they don’t appeal it, then it counts.”

Hosts’ Own Bizarre Baseball Experiences

• Don and Rosenberg reminisce about quirky baseball rule encounters, from throwing a glove to running without touching bases, and old-school umpires making kids do pushups instead of ejections ([47:48–51:15]).
  • Quote [49:34, Rosenberg]: “I didn’t even know if you know the rule...I used to do that. The first thing I would do after, right when I get a hit is I knock the helmet off my head because I felt like I just didn’t want the thing on my head.”

Bigger Point: Why Baseball Alone Delivers This Level of Absurdity

• Replay and historical ignorance: How would baseball have handled these scenarios pre-video review? “In this case it was ignorance bliss...If this happened in 1930, the run doesn’t score...” says Rosenberg ([37:56–38:50]).
• Don marvels at the unique chaos baseball can create: “Is there any other sport that would have that type of a nuanced ruling?” ([34:33–34:51]).

Old-School “Ground Rules” and Making It Up As You Go

• Both hosts reflect nostalgically on high school ball—improvised ground rules, fields with no fences, and the creative, informal solutions of a pre-digital era ([51:31–52:32]).
  • Quote [52:22, Don Hahn]: “Isn’t that great? Like, think about it. I just want to get home and get dinner.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On True Two-Way HoF’ers
  [16:22, Don Hahn]: “It can’t be debatable...If you tell me you could make the case, then he’s not a Hall of Famer.”
• On Replay's Absurdity
  [25:23, Rosenberg]: “It’s four minutes of my life...What took four minutes to rule? Like, is there some kind of paperwork with the stat...whether it’s an official double or grounds rule double?”
• On Scoreboard-Induced Confusion
  [29:04, Rosenberg]: “If the first word he’s saying is ‘okay,’ be worried. Because this is a guy that’s really unsure...”
• On Baseball’s Unique Wackiness
  [34:33, Don Hahn]: “Is there any other sport that would have that type of a nuanced ruling?...It’s the only sport I could think of that it’s that ridiculous.”
• On Dawn Staley as the Next Big NBA Coach
  [19:03, Don Hahn]: “Dawn Staley would be on my list. Remember the Knicks? I believe the Knicks reached out okay last year. And it was no joke...If there’s going to come a time, I think her more than even Becky Hammond...I think she would do very well.”
• On Old-School Baseball Solutions
  [52:22, Don Hahn]: “Isn’t that great? Like, think about it. I just want to get home and get dinner.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:43: Listener suggestions begin: HoF player/coach question posed
• 03:56: Yogi Berra discussion
• 04:40: Why great players rarely become HoF coaches
• 07:40: Mike Ditka and the Bears debate
• 12:46: Junior Johnson (NASCAR) as a rare dual-HoF’er
• 16:13: Defining the bar: must be “slam dunk” both as player and coach
• 18:05: Dawn Staley — modern two-way legend
• 24:33: “Let’s Talk About It”: replay frustration, Mets ground rule double
• 26:09: Blue Jays/Red Sox timing play confusion, 16-minute review
• 43:31: Callers break down MLB timing play rules
• 47:48: Hosts share personal stories about bizarre baseball rule encounters
• 51:31: Old-school ground rules & baseball’s home-grown solutions

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Summary

This episode is a must-listen for sports aficionados who love to debate the “GOAT” coaching/player crossovers and geek out over the labyrinthian weirdness of baseball rules and tradition. Don and Rosenberg’s banter, sharp wit, and the enthusiastic (sometimes mischievous) participation of listeners keep the conversation lively and informative. While the hunt for a true, undisputed Hall of Fame player-coach continues (with only a rare few making a real case, like Mike Ditka, Tommy Heinsohn, Junior Johnson, and most notably, Dawn Staley), the journey through remarkable moments in rules and sports history is both hilarious and rich in nostalgia.

For anyone who missed it, this episode brilliantly blends elite sports trivia, absurd real-life rule drama, and relatable human moments from the hosts’ own athletic lives.

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For next steps:

• Want to see the full Hall of Fame two-way list? Start with Ditka, Heinsohn, and Staley.
• Craving more old-school sports stories? Don’t miss the latter half (after 24:33) for the most entertaining play-by-play of rule mishaps you’ll hear this season.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Don Hahn]

and [e-mail] this is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Don Hahn]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.

[Rosenberg]

We got some suggestions for hall of Fame players, hall of Fame managers. Somebody called Anthony off the air and said, Rod Brindemore, God love Ron Brindamore.

[Caller]

Shout out.

[Rosenberg]

Pat in Connecticut had over a thousand points in his career. He compiled, he played forever, but he never had a 40 goal season. You know, he averaged like, you know, 25 and 40. I think it was like 25 goals. 40. He's not a Hall of Fame player.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Rosenberg]

Won a cup, captain a cup. And he's been a hell of a coach. Wouldn't put him here. Anthony in May of packs. Got one. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, Anthony?

[Caller]

Hey guys, I just wanted to mention Gil Hodges, 69, Mets, won the championship.

[Rosenberg]

Definitely hall of Fame as a player. Yeah, but he wouldn't be a Hall of Fame manager. Maybe he would have been on his way to be Anthony. But the one championship with the, with the Mets, I guess he a little bit managed with them with the Senators and then he came to the Mets and won a championship in 69, maybe he would have won or at least gotten to the World Series in 73. Died in spring training in 72. So you figure if he did not pass away, he wasn't even 50. I think he was like 48 years old. Would have taken the team to the World Series in 73. Took him forever to get into the hall of Fame as a player. I don't know why it took as long as it did, but he wouldn't have been, he would have had to manage a lot longer to be a Hall of Fame manager. One World Series does not put you in the hall of Fame.

[Don Hahn]

So you're saying if you just took away his playing career and you just

[Rosenberg]

looked at his management career. I think, I guess the question, what Richard is saying is has there ever been a player that was a Hall of Fame player And then would have gone to the hall of Fame just as a manager, as a head coach. Like, there are plenty of guys that did both. Oh, yeah, you know, like, you know, Gil Hodges in the hall of Fame, and he also managed. But he's in the hall of Fame for his playing career. Is there anybody that was that good at both and I don't think so. Where. If you took their playing career away, they still would have gone to the hall of Fame?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, no, it. It's very rare.

[Rosenberg]

Now, Robert in the Bronx brought up somebody we had brought up. Who do you got? Robert. Robert. Robert is not there. But Robert's going to suggest Lenny Wilkins, who was also suggested.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, well, that's.

[Rosenberg]

What was Lenny Wilkins in as a player.

[Don Hahn]

See, like Bill Russell was inducted into the Basketball hall of Fame first as a player when he retired and then because he coached. But Bill Russell didn't do anything remarkable as a coach that. But he was also inducted as a coach in the hall of Fame, like.

[Rosenberg]

Well, because once you coach like Joe Torre's in the hall of Fame.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, as a.

[Rosenberg]

The managerial stuff got him in.

[Don Hahn]

Of course it did. Tory was a really good player, wasn't he? All Star.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, he wasn't a Hall of Fame,

[Don Hahn]

but it wasn't like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rosenberg]

James and Lake Grove, you're on espn, New York. What's up, James?

[Caller]

Hey, good afternoon, guys. Now, he was a little bit before my time, but I think he was kind of underrated as a player and maybe even as a manager. Yogi Berra.

[Rosenberg]

Well, Yogi Berra wasn't underrated as a player. I mean, all those champions, he. He's in the hall of Fame as a player.

[Caller]

He was kind of looked. Looked past a lot of times. I think that's just me.

[Rosenberg]

But as a manager, you know, he got the Mets to the World Series. Did I mention Yogi?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, I mentioned Yogi, didn't I? Okay.

[Rosenberg]

He got to the Mets to the World Series in 73. Hell of a bench coach. He was all those championships with the Yankees as a bench coach for Joe, for a lot of different people. He was a bench coach for the Astros in 86 when they went to the league Championship Series. He wasn't a Hall of Fame manager. Hall of Fame player.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, it's hard to do. It's definitely hard to do.

[Rosenberg]

You just can't. I don't think a great. A player of that magnitude is going to want to coach. And I look at Mark Messier, right? Mark Messier wants to coach. Patrick Ewing wants to coach. These guys want to coach, but because they're so big, like, are they going to go, like, would you would. Obviously, Ewing went to Georgetown.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

But, like, Ewing's not going to go coach in the G League for a couple of years, get some. Get his bone. Like, he's not going to do that. He's. Patrick Ewing. Like, Mark Messier is not going to want to go to the AHL and go coach, you know, and work his way up. He's going to want to get a job right away. And you give these guys a job right away, like Wayne Gretzky, they gave him a job right away. He wasn't ready. He gets fired and then he never gets another job again. You know, Brian Trottier, same thing. That was. He. He did it the right way. He was an assistant coach in Pittsburgh, assistant coach of Colorado, finally got his chance to head coach and then completely dropped the ball. Maybe if he had been a head coach down in the minor leagues for a little while, then maybe it would have been a different story. These guys aren't going to want to pay their dues the way a lot of other managers and coaches are going to. If they're that great, are they going to go ride a bus in the minor leagues and go coach for some double A or triple A team to get the experience to become a manager in the big leagues? No, probably not.

[Don Hahn]

And that's Aaron Glenn's story, right? Aaron Glenn's story was he wanted to get into coaching. Now, again, I'm not saying he's a Hall of Fame player, but I'm saying, like, guy like him wanted to get into coaching, and he started out at the lowest level as a scout, as a, you know, all the different things that he did to work his way up to become a defensive coordinator and then become a head coach. Like, he didn't just say, hey, I played in the league. I'm a guy. Like, I should get a top job right away. Worked his way up, wanted to learn his way up, and that. That benefited him.

[Rosenberg]

Now, the great Joe Nolan, I'm not sure you're familiar with his work. Penns announcer over at the jets. Longtime traffic guy, salt of the earth, exceptionally talented. I'm saying all this because he's listening, but it's all true. He texts me. And you might be able to answer this better than me. Tommy Hindson.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tommy Hindson was a great player, and he was a.

[Rosenberg]

He.

[Don Hahn]

He had great success as a coach. So that's a good one we've got. Or, of course, you know how Ronald Reagan pronounced it?

[Rosenberg]

Do you believe that, Peter? Never heard that. A Celtic fan.

[Don Hahn]

It's so good.

[Rosenberg]

Never. It's, it's Clyde. You've heard it, right?

[Don Hahn]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Did you hear it, John? So great. Islanders producer, director Joel Mandelbaum. Frank Robinson

[Rosenberg]

had success as a manager. I don't know if he's a Hall of Fame.

[Don Hahn]

Not hall of Fame. Success. Right.

[Rosenberg]

God, I remember. So sad. I remember when he was managing the Nationals and he fell asleep in the dugout. He was, he was older by the time he got to the Nationals. Shane in Albany's got a really good one.

[Caller]

Shane.

[Rosenberg]

Oh, yeah, this is Garny, Spn New York. What's up, Buddy?

[Caller]

Hey, guys. I just thought about it and I was kept waiting for one of you to say, and I thought Mike Ditka, you know, had an elite tight end, career, good head coach. I know he only got the one ring, but that bill, that Bears team

[Rosenberg]

is famous, you know, Shane, you probably came up with the closest.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, because did the New Orleans thing though, take something away? Would he still be in? If you think about it, he won a Super bowl with the Chicago Bears, which sounds almost impossible if you think about it, right? Like if you think now about their history. So the fact that he, you know, he was, come on. I mean, he was the head coach of one of the most notorious teams in NFL history. I will tell you, that's a good one.

[Rosenberg]

You could make the case. It's the, like two of the greatest seasons back to back. They go 15 and 1, win the Super bowl, crush everybody in 85. The 86 team was 14 and 2, but the Redskins upset them in the divisional round. But that's a team that like literally went 29:3 over a two year span in the regular season. Now, Saints thing was bad. The Ricky Williams thing was bad. Him on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, he got Ricky Williams the put on a wedding gown, that it was bad. But was he a Hall of Fame coach?

[Don Hahn]

Well, because what wasn't that Buddy Ryan's

[Rosenberg]

defense was Buddy Ryan's defense. Remember they both got carried off the field after they beat the Patriots in 85. Although Buddy Ryan never found that same success as a head coach. He had good years in Philadelphia.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

But didn't win a championship the way Ditka did in Chicago.

[Don Hahn]

But, but Ditka getting credit for that team's toughness and defense really was Buddy Ryan. What, am I wrong?

[Rosenberg]

No.

[Don Hahn]

I was very young then. No, I don't know more than just, you know, the Fridge and all that stuff and the Roselle headband and sweetness. But. But I'm talking about, like, the. The real inner workings of that team was a. Wasn't it like Ditka versus Buddy Ryan for a lot?

[Rosenberg]

Oh, big time.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

Big time. Wasn't as bad as when, you know, was. It wasn't a Buddy Ryan punching Kevin Gilbride in the face in Houston, but they probably came to blows. Just wasn't as many cameras out there, but it's the best one I think we've had, honestly. He's in the hall of Fame as a tight end, and then the combination with the. I just don't know if he's a Hall of Fame caliber, but he's darn close, man. I know it's only the one ring, but the Bears were a perennial winner. Good stuff, man. That's a good one. How about Keith on Long Island? You're on espn, New York.

[Don Hahn]

What's up, Keith?

[Caller]

Yeah, you guys are thinking about. How about Maradona now?

[Rosenberg]

And I'm not familiar with his coaching career. Yeah, talk to us about that.

[Caller]

Well, didn't he coach Argentina to the World Cup a couple of years ago? Four years ago, to look it up? But I was. I thought.

[Don Hahn]

I mean, he was.

[Caller]

He was an unbelievable player. Obviously, we don't know.

[Rosenberg]

I know him as the player. I don't. I don't know. And is that enough if he did? Again, I'm not. I'm not a big soccer guy to know if that would be enough if he did coach Argentina to a World Cup. Yeah, but that's a good one. Was he the. Was he the head coach at Argentina in 22, 2010? 2010. So go back a while.

[Caller]

All right.

[Rosenberg]

Well, that's not bad. That's a good one, too.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, he did have a pretty good player on the team called Lionel Messi.

[Rosenberg]

Well, everybody needs a good player, right? Nobody takes Phil Jackson's rings away because it was Jordan and. And Kobe. Right. And Shaq. He had great players.

[Don Hahn]

They lost in the quarterfinals, though. They did not win the world, but he said they.

[Rosenberg]

The last one they won four years ago. Was he still the coach?

[Don Hahn]

I don't know. He was not the coach.

[Rosenberg]

Then again, I know the name of. I know the player I just lost.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, they lost in the quarterfinals to Germany.

[Rosenberg]

Okay, so let's go to Bill in Huntington. You're on espn, New York. This has spurred things on. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Bill?

[Caller]

Hey, how you doing? Good. What about Dusty Baker?

[Don Hahn]

He's Dusty, a Hall of Fame player,

[Rosenberg]

wasn't a Hall of Fame player. And listen, he was a hell of a manager. I'm glad he finally got his ring in Houston. Went to it, you know, but he failed with the Cubs. Didn't get there. And the Bartman play, the losing to the Angels in the World Series in 2002, he was kind of like the Marty Schottenheimer of baseball. Just. He'd get you there, but he couldn't get you the championship two time All Star. He wasn't. He wasn't. He was. He was. He was good with the Braves and the Dodgers. He was on some of those Dodger championship teams. He was not a Hall of Fame player.

[Don Hahn]

Coach got a Gold Glove, NLCS mvp.

[Rosenberg]

Not to that level, no. Let's go to Josh on Long Island. You're on espn, New York. What's up, man?

[Caller]

Josh, hey, how's it going? So, yeah, I'd like to nominate Junior Johnson from NASCAR.

[Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Caller]

Junior Johnson won 50 races as a driver, then won multiple championships as a crew chief car owner. He definitely had two hall of Fame careers and that's why he was in the inaugural class of the NASCAR hall of Fame.

[Rosenberg]

You know, that's not. That's not bad, man. Listen, I know him. You know, I know the name. Obviously, he's a, you know, before my time as a driver, but I know the name and it sounds like it clicks all of the, the boxes we're looking for.

[Don Hahn]

What you're looking for now would be

[Rosenberg]

like the equivalent of a coach.

[Don Hahn]

Absolutely.

[Rosenberg]

In auto racing.

[Don Hahn]

And a great. So you're a great. See, that's the other thing. It's really not easy to do. A great driver doesn't always make a great crew chief because again, it's the demand, it's the egos, it's all the things that don't always work for Junior Johnson. It certainly worked.

[Rosenberg]

Let's go to Kirk in the Bronx. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Kirk? Hey, Don, what's up?

[Caller]

What's going on, hon?

[Don Hahn]

What's up?

[Caller]

All as well, we share a kindred spirit. Mean me and Don, because I have twins. They just turned nine. Oh, and you have twins that are going to turn, I think eight next week?

[Rosenberg]

No, I'm thinking no, they turn nine December 5th, so they're closing in.

[Caller]

Okay. Okay. All right, cool. So this is a stretch in terms of the honorable mention, but what about Willie Randolph?

[Rosenberg]

Now, I know there's a lot of people. Well, well, here, here's the. It's A stretch on a bunch of levels. There are people that believe as a player, he deserves more consideration to go to the hall of Fame. He was what, like a five time all star? He was on, you know, championship teams with the Yankees in 77 and 78, went to the World Series in 76 and 81 and lost. But not a Hall of Fame manager. I think he got jobbed by the Mets the way he got fired and everything and the way they Lew it in 07 with the lead and of course losing to the Cardinals in oh, six. But I appreciate your love for Willie Randolph, the player, but it's the manager. It just doesn't click that box. Al Long island, you're on espn, New York. What's up, Al?

[Caller]

Hey, what's going on? The lifelong Broncos fan. So I'm going to draw out Dan Reeves.

[Rosenberg]

Dan Reeves. I would have no problem as a coach, what, four soup, five Super Bowls.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

I mean, lost them, but, you know, taking his team to five Super Bowl. The problem is heck of a player, heck of a player. He was not, he was not a Hall of Fame player. He was a running back for the Dallas Cowboys. Played like 100 games in the NFL like eight years. And he was more of a blocking guy. It's, he's not a Hall of Fame player. I think we're starting to lose the conversation here a little bit.

[Don Hahn]

Well, it's, it's everybody's, you know, like I love the, just kind of the input, just throwing names out there. What do you guys think of this? How about this name? How about that name? Yeah, because we were trying to say, are we missing anybody? Is there somebody? We're just not thinking.

[Rosenberg]

But I think Ditka was a good one. Dick is a good one. Certainly, you know, Junior Johnson's a good one. It's creative, but it's a good one.

[Don Hahn]

But we were Hodges. Like those are, you know, like it all really kick those around.

[Rosenberg]

It all started with Richard talking about Tory, who's a borderline hall of Famer as a player.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

And clearly a Hall of Fame manager. Was there anybody that was a Hall of Famer at both? And I clear cut.

[Don Hahn]

That's the thing too. It can't be a debatable where you could make the, if you tell me you could make the case, then he's not a Hall of Famer. That's how I got to look. That's how we're going to judge this conversation.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, of course. And then it just not necessarily all

[Don Hahn]

conversations, but this particular one, if I, if You say you could make a case, then you can't make it. Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

You can't make the case. The idea is that. Oh yeah, clearly hall of Famers. There's no name out there that is

[Don Hahn]

obvious like oh, because Tory, you could make a case.

[Rosenberg]

Oh. They see because people parachute into the middle of conversations.

[Don Hahn]

That's fair.

[Rosenberg]

This is not a segment on hall of Fame players that became managers or head coaches.

[Don Hahn]

No.

[Rosenberg]

These are guys that were hall of Famers at both.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

And we haven't really been able to come up with any slam dunk guys. Like I said, Ditka was good. Even Lemaire and Robinson were good because they both won cups as head coaches and were good head coaches. But we're saying is they're in what you would have to say have happened. He's in as a player, then he becomes a coach and then they put him in again. Because they would probably do that.

[Don Hahn]

Right. Well that again that they did that with Bill Russell.

[Rosenberg]

Right. But that was more an honorary. I think he was.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

He wasn't a great head coach. Right.

[Don Hahn]

Like Don Nelson is who we just lost.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

Like he, he was, he, he was a really good player. He won championships as a player. He's one of the most. Second winningest coach I think in NBA history.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

So there's a guy that if you wanted to make the case, like there's your make the case. Right. That, that's all I could think of.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah. Now Griffin in Connecticut's got a good one. You're on ESPN New York. Hi, Griff.

[Caller]

Hi guys. How about Don Saley?

[Don Hahn]

Well, Don Stale. Yeah. I mean, yeah. National championship. She had a great dish player. Yeah. I still.

[Caller]

And she's done a phenomenal job at South Carolina.

[Don Hahn]

It's. That's the conversation over like that. That's a, that's a great example.

[Rosenberg]

That is a very good one of

[Don Hahn]

someone And I still to this, I will stay with this. If the end. If in the NBA we see and I do think we're going to have. If there's going to be come a time in the future that we're going to see a woman coach an NBA team head coach. I think she would be the first one and I think she would do very well. I don't even hesitate to say, well

[Rosenberg]

she's got the credentials.

[Don Hahn]

I'm telling you she could do it.

[Rosenberg]

Played coached all different levels.

[Don Hahn]

She's smart as hell.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Basketball was smart as hell. She can handle herself again when you know it's not always easy to deal with Players and egos and all that stuff, no question in my mind, she can handle it. No question. Like, if I. If I were running a franchise and I'm trying to find a coach and I wanted somebody that I knew could resonate with players, it's got a resume and all that stuff, Don Staley would be on my list. Remember the Knicks? I believe the Knicks reached out okay last year. And it was no joke. It wasn't, like, pandering. It was, you know, we're gonna. We're going with everybody that we think is really good. And she's. I'm telling you, if there's going to come a time, I think her more than even Becky Hammond. I think she would be the. She could be the one that. If you wanted to hire a woman and felt like she'd be the best for your job, I think she'd do it.

[Rosenberg]

She'd be really good. Adam, in the car. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Adam?

[Caller]

Hey, guys, thanks for taking the call. First of all, the guy who mentioned Maradona knows less about soccer than you guys because he died in 2020, so that he was way off. Maradona, I think, followed the perfect prototype of Gretzky being like the best of his generation, getting into coaching early and just not being successful. So there's that. But the first name that popped into my head was Steve Kerr. Right. Championships as a player, championships as a coach.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, he just. He's not in as a player yet.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. Was Steve Kerr, though, a Hall of Fame? Now, remember, in basketball, it's college and.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

And if you. You could make an argument because Kerr was a terrific college player at Arizona. Right. So could you. Again, I'm using the phrase that we also begin, you know, make a case.

[Rosenberg]

Well, what's going to happen with Kerr, Adam, is that he's eventually going to go into the hall of Fame combining both like, if he continues on the trajectory he's going as a coach.

[Don Hahn]

Right, right.

[Rosenberg]

And they may put him in to say, hey, great coach, but look at the career, too. And when you combine the two where he's not a Hall of Fame player, maybe a borderline hall of Fame coach, but because we combine the two, he can put them in, but he wasn't a Hall of Fame player, he would have probably been in by now. Remember, he won a bunch of championships, but, you know, look at the teams he was on.

[Don Hahn]

I'm looking this up because Jake put it in my ear. So Billy Cunningham, he's a Hall of Fame player.

[Rosenberg]

Right, right.

[Don Hahn]

Brooklyn guy. By the way, he then he coached the Sixers when they last won their championship.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes, he did.

[Rosenberg]

Over eight seasons with the Sixers, he

[Commercial Announcer]

won 69% of his games and NBA championship.

[Don Hahn]

Billy Cunningham. Yeah, he wanted. He won an mvp. He's all he was. Hall of Fame. He's already in the hall of Fame as a player. That's. That's. I'm surprised if he's not in the hall of Fame as a coach.

[Rosenberg]

But, but they may. It might not be something they do like once you're in the hall of Fame, you're in the hall of Fame.

[Don Hahn]

No, that's done. They would do it as a coach,

[Rosenberg]

but they haven't done it by now. I don't think they're going to do it.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, no, certainly not. But still, that's a good one.

[Rosenberg]

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[Rosenberg]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Rosenberg]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes you just can't take it anymore. This is let's Talk About It Tuesday with Don Hahn and Rosenberg, brought to you by Samwell Institute for Pain Management.

[Rosenberg]

That is right. It's Tuesday. It's 4:30. It's talk about a Tuesday. Brought to you by Samwell Institute for Pain Management. All right. Baseball sometimes just drives you nuts. So I'm listening to the Met game, driving home last night, minding my own business. First play of the game.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

Ewing hits one into the gap. It gets wedged between the padding of the wall and the ground. And it's a ground rule double.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

So grounds rule double. Put your hands up. Acuna puts his hands up.

[Don Hahn]

All right.

[Rosenberg]

They stop. Everybody stops running. Oh, no. We're going to replay to see if it was actually caught and really is a grounds rule double. Four minutes. Doesn't sound like a lot of time, but it's four minutes of my life. Listening, debating.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Rosenberg]

They come back and they say replay shows it was not wedged. It's not a grounds rule double. But Ewing's got to stay at second base. Well, what's the difference? Why do we have replay? To confirm he was going to be at second. Where else you're going to put him? Like they were speculating, like Keith rad and Pat McCarthy were saying. Well, maybe they're going to put him at third because if they rule that it wasn't a ground rule double, well, then keep. Put him at third base because he would have gone to third.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

But they kept him at second. So what took four minutes to rule? Like, is there some kind of paperwork with the stat whether it's an official double or grounds rule double? Oh, wait a minute. In the Blue Jay Red Sox game, it was hold my beer.

[Don Hahn]

This was amazing.

[Rosenberg]

Runners at the corners, one out, fly ball to center field. However, everybody thinks that there's two outs because that's what the scoreboard said, but. Well, here is this bizarre play we're talking about in real time. Blue Jays, Red Sox, last night. This is in the air to center field. Bateman setting up, and the runner at first thought there were two outs. Throw the ball to first. This is going to be a double play.

[Don Hahn]

The runner at first.

[Rosenberg]

So Guard didn't know how many outs there were. He was jogging around the bases, and it's a double play. As soon as that ball was hit, I was wondering if it was deep enough to score the runner. They could have tagged up and scored. They could have gotten a run. Both runners. Both runners thought there were two outs.

[Don Hahn]

Stunning, but stunning.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, stunning is right. Because there were Blue Jays who thought there were two outs because the scoreboard said two outs.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Rosenberg]

Now, should players know how many outs there are? Yes, they should. They should be paying attention to the game. However, Allen, we both played baseball. If you look up at the scoreboard to just remind yourself how many outs there are and you see two outs, you might say, all right, well, the scoreboard says two outs. I guess there are two outs. Now, should the runners at the corners check with their coach? Because they could go to the first base coach or the third base coach and say, hey, I thought there was one out. Scoreboard says 2. How many outs are there?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

Or you can ask the umpire, hey, Blue, how many outs? So I will still criticize the players for not knowing. All right? But the scoreboards there for a reason, man. You got to have that right.

[Don Hahn]

The umpire usually corrects the scoreboard, don't they?

[Rosenberg]

Yeah. And also, I can understand the scoreboard having one out when there's two outs. Like forgetting to put the extra out out. Why would you put an extra out up if there wasn't one?

[Don Hahn]

I don't know.

[Rosenberg]

Like. All right, maybe you're asleep at the switch. Not that that's any kind of an excuse, but that I can understand. Why would you put an out that actually didn't happen? But get this. They rule a run scored. Wait a minute. So everybody's going crazy. All right, so Chris Ciccone is the crew chief. Here's what he has to say.

[Caller]

Okay?

[Rosenberg]

So what we have here, I just. I just want to say. I just want to say this, okay? Anytime somebody officially is saying something, okay? If you're getting an announcement on a PA system, if you're in the subway, if you're. If your pilot is going to talk to you on the. On the plane, okay, if the first word he's saying is okay, Be worried.

[Caller]

All right?

[Rosenberg]

Because this is a guy that's really unsure when your first words are.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Rosenberg]

So keep that in mind. Okay, so what we have here is we have a time play, meaning when the third play, when the third out was made at first base with. With the runner not tagging up, the runner that was on third base also did not tag, but crossed home plate before the third out was made at first base.

[Don Hahn]

You getting this?

[Rosenberg]

So that is a time play. We are going to New York to check.

[Don Hahn]

Do a rules check.

[Rosenberg]

All right. They're going to check. Which. Which I'm fine with. Let's try to get this right.

[Don Hahn]

Of course.

[Rosenberg]

Now, back in New York, this is in Toronto, but back in New York, I believe it's in Chelsea. They're watching this, so they'll be able to give an official ruling 16 minutes later. Oh, no. We've got our ruling. All right, after calling, I just want to say. All right, first, you start with okay.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Rosenberg]

But when the first thing you. All right, all right, all right.

[Don Hahn]

Everybody calm down.

[Rosenberg]

That's what we got. I didn't hear these beforehand. I had to stop. And just like the first was okay at least.

[Don Hahn]

But I give him credit, though. He was comfortable, right? He was comfortable talking to the crowd. Okay, this is what's going on.

[Rosenberg]

We know, we know. Listen, we know this is 16 minutes. I think we're going to figure this out.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, there we go.

[Caller]

All right.

[Rosenberg]

After calling New York, getting it all straightened out, the run is going to score, which.

[Don Hahn]

Done.

[Rosenberg]

That doesn't make sense.

[Don Hahn]

Doesn't make sense.

[Caller]

One run for Boston.

[Don Hahn]

So the time play, it's obviously a

[Rosenberg]

rule, but it doesn't make any sense. First ever for me. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense.

[Don Hahn]

First ever. So. So it's a timing play which essentially says that the runner scored before the out. Right? So you count this. You count it. But how, when it's. It's two outs.

[Rosenberg]

No, you have to.

[Don Hahn]

You have to tag.

[Rosenberg]

Well, but he's supposed to tag. But the only way.

[Don Hahn]

It was a stolen base.

[Rosenberg]

No, the only way that you could take the runaway is if they appeal at third. But they didn't appeal at third because they all. They all walked off the field.

[Don Hahn]

Are you saying because they walked off

[Rosenberg]

the field, they didn't appeal? Because what would you do if somebody left early? Like, let's say everybody knew there was one out. Tag up. If he left early, they left the field. They left the field. So they never appealed.

[Don Hahn]

Oh. Cause they lost. Because they assume that run doesn't score. That's the third out. Whatever.

[Rosenberg]

But he touched home plate. He left early thinking it was three outs, but he still touched home plate. And he touched it before they got the out at first.

[Don Hahn]

I'm so confused.

[Rosenberg]

He should have been out if they appealed. But they never appealed again.

[Don Hahn]

I'm confused.

[Rosenberg]

All right, first and third, one out. Let's say the scoreboard so he doesn't

[Don Hahn]

have to tag up. Because it's already two outs. There's no reason to tag up. So you just run thinking, what if he drops it?

[Rosenberg]

He's supposed to tag up. Yeah, but the only way to call him out for not tagging up is if you appeal. He didn't appeal, so there's no way to record the out.

[Don Hahn]

But how do you appeal something? You can't appeal it.

[Rosenberg]

Well, that's why he doesn't have to figure out what to do.

[Don Hahn]

He doesn't have to tag up. It's two outs.

[Rosenberg]

No, there's one egg. There's one out.

[Don Hahn]

I thought there were two outs, and

[Rosenberg]

then the scoreboard then said, no, no, the scoreboard.

[Don Hahn]

How did the inning end?

[Rosenberg]

The scoreboard said two outs.

[Don Hahn]

How did the inning end?

[Rosenberg]

The inning ended. How many outs? Because the. The center fielder caught the ball and then threw it.

[Don Hahn]

Threw it into the.

[Rosenberg]

Threw it to. He thought the inning would throw it in. They go to throw to first to get the guy at first out who didn't tag up. He's out. Inning over. However, the runner scored before you cross home plate. Before they called him out at first.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, my God.

[Rosenberg]

He should have been out. If they appealed, they didn't appeal. Now, that's crazy. Now, John Snider, the manager of the Blue Jays, says he understands the rule but still confused by the umpire's ruling. Yeah, it was. It was confusing first time for me, but I think the rule is the rule. And it was just tough because they didn't challenge the play initially. It happened in the middle of an inning when Moran's coming in to warm up and players and coaches and managers react to what is being said to them.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

So after consulting with mlb, they told me that all of my players were crossed the third baseline before Charlie waved off the run, which I 100% disagree with. I don't know if Vlad is that fast after he got the ball at first. So we weren't given an opportunity to appeal to third. And going forward, when that play happens again in the next hundred years, if it's us, we will record the lead out at third.

[Don Hahn]

No, that's what it was is you went the wrong. Instead of throwing a first, you're throwing third.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

That's what it should have been.

[Rosenberg]

But because half the half the players thought there were two outs, the other half thought there was one out, the

[Don Hahn]

good news is it ended up not mattering. Right.

[Rosenberg]

Well, the Blue Jays won the game.

[Don Hahn]

They won the game 2 to 1. 2 to 1. And from a Yankee perspective. Yes. That's another loss now for Boston. Boston's now two full games back.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

They had a chance to gain.

[Rosenberg]

They lost three in a row now.

[Don Hahn]

First time for them in three months. But think about it. If, let's say the Red Sox come back and win that game.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Like if you're, like if you're the

[Rosenberg]

Yankees, you're furious about that, but ends up becoming the difference between that.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Rosenberg]

And the loss and why you're playing in Fenway and not playing at Yankee Stadium.

[Don Hahn]

Baseball, is there any other sport that would have that type of a nuanced ruling? Like, think about just how specific and rare that ruling is. It's the only sport I could think of that it's that ridiculous because there's

[Rosenberg]

so many moving parts.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

But I don't know why it took 16 minutes. But what would the alternative be? Like your major League baseball, as confusing and wacky as it is, how would you have ruled it? He touched home plate. Right.

[Don Hahn]

They had to watch.

[Rosenberg]

He didn't appeal it. It's your fault. You didn't know how many outs there were. You know, I. If you want to say that that run shouldn't count. Put him back at third base. But he did cross.

[Don Hahn]

But there's no such thing as do over.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, there's no do over. I mean, do you want the. Do you want to look at replay? See where the center fielder was? Put him right in that spot with the ball.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

Put the runner back at third and have him try to score off of him. Like you want to do that, but they don't do that in baseball. That's called the do over. We did that. That's what we would do over in Wiffle ball.

[Don Hahn]

Right, Right.

[Rosenberg]

If we played Wiffle ball in the backyard, that's probably how we would have resolved it. But you don't resolve that. But 16 minutes, it just, it's. I don't know whether to criticize baseball or just love it for the nuance. This is why sports is so interesting to me, because in the hundred and. What is it? 1869. So in the 157 year history of Major League Baseball, this might be the first time anything like this happened before in this type of way. Although Max Scherzer apparently after the game said he had been involved in something like this before. And if you watch some of the replays, he's kind of like explaining to his teammates what's going to happen because apparently he had seen it before. So I guess that has happened before. I never remember it happening. I mean, that's what you got to love about sports, man. You think you can have it all figured out and then wacky stuff happens, man. And you could, you could sit there and prepare forever and go over every single scenario of what should be done when this happens or that happens and then you get something like this. But I just figured we'd talk about it because it was crazy. So it started out with the Mets, took four minutes to decide that we're just going to leave Ewing at second base anyway, which we could have done without going to New York for four minutes. And then in Toronto it was like, oh, you. Four minutes. How about we take 16 minutes and then.

[Don Hahn]

All right, so let me just cap the this. Let's talk about it. But let's talk about this that I've brought up many times before. Think about the world we're in with replay, right? And review and how 30 years ago none of this would exist, right? What would they do here? They can't watch it back to make sure that the timing play timed out correctly. We're not calling New York to see what they say because New York doesn't exist as a video review back then. So how many plays happened in sports history that were not aided by review? As good as review is to make sure we get it right. There is something though that's still about it that makes you wonder about the hundred years we lived with baseball before video review. How many times do we get it wrong and we just didn't know anybody?

[Rosenberg]

Well, I will tell you, in this case it was ignorance bliss. And you would think you forgot how many outs there were. Did they even have a scoreboard early in baseball it was just hand operated. Like there had to be times where people forgot how many outs there were, right? But I think if this had happened in 1930, the run doesn't score because they wouldn't have the ability in replay to see if he touched home plate before the out at first base was recorded. So they would have just said third out, first base, he doesn't score. And that would have been done. But because they had the ability to look and see that he crossed home plate before he was out at first they get their. Awarded the run. I guess that's the difference. But that's, that's why I joke all the time about like, how many wacky stuff must have happened back before there was television right where they were. Just like, just, just give them the run. Who cares? Nobody. There's seven people in the stands. It's 4 o' clock in the afternoon. It's 100 degrees outside. There's nobody we're going to report on this game.

[Don Hahn]

Who gives a damn?

[Rosenberg]

That's why I'm saying, like back in hockey, like, how many times were they about there? Like, I don't know who, who had the secondary assist? Does anybody remember who touched the puck before Dicky Moore did? Just give it to Richard. He was on the ice. He's good. Nobody's gonna points. He probably didn't have. But they're like, yeah, just give it to Maurice Richard.

[Don Hahn]

I totally agree with that one.

[Rosenberg]

You know, I said it too. Like with the DiMaggio hitting streak, you know, there wasn't one time where it's like, you know what? That probably should have been an error, but you know, you're gonna be the one that's gonna say he's out and ruin his hitting streak. There's four people at a typewriter. One of them fell asleep. The other one, his jacket caught on fire from his cigar. The other one's half in the bag. He has no idea where he is. You know what? I'm just. You know what? Just, just give him, just give him the damn hit. All right, on the 56. Who's gonna say anything? Yes, sure, Ruth, hit it. 600ft. Who's going to go there with a tape measure? I don't have a tape measure.

[Caller]

That.

[Rosenberg]

Yeah, Mickey, hit it. 550. Who's going to complain?

[Don Hahn]

By my calculations, that was 550ft. Well, I'm going to write that too.

[Rosenberg]

Right? You know what I mean? And again, the answer always is, we were at war.

[Don Hahn]

We were at war.

[Rosenberg]

So there were a lot of other important things going on.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah,

[Rosenberg]

1-800-919-3776, of course, is the number to call. That was. Let's talk Talk about it. Brought to you by Samwell Institute for Pain Management for pain. For a pain free life, visit samwalpayne.com

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[Don Hahn]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast.

[Rosenberg]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rosenberg]

Hondo in New Brunswick. It's close to my neck of the woods. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, man?

[Caller]

What's up, Don? Funny, I used to go to that pizza shop over by the kickboxing place you used to talk about all the time over in Somerset. So I know the area well.

[Rosenberg]

Okay, cool. They made my kickboxing place into a liquor store. So now I go to New Journey, which is over on jfk. So I'm over by jfk, if you know where that is.

[Caller]

So I used to live right off jfk. That's why I know the area. So, yeah. So really quick, just based off the plays from yesterday, playing in college, we actually went over a lot of these crazy plays and what to do in certain situations. And one of them was anytime you have a double appeal, you always go to the lead runner first. So the Toronto manager mentioned that in the post game. So that was one. The other thing that Allen, you said you're a little confused on. Technically as a runner, you never have to tag up, you never have to touch a base when running, but if they don't appeal it, then it counts.

[Don Hahn]

Gotcha.

[Caller]

So in that situation, because, because they didn't appeal it, that runner is going to count because he scored before the third out. And you see it all the time with the timing plays. You guys were just mentioning too as well about, you know, no video, but the umpires technically are supposed to be in watching it to see those timing plays happen.

[Don Hahn]

So they're the ones that really called it. Right. Originally it came from the umpires, right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. Okay. So they were, they were the ones

[Rosenberg]

they thought, okay, so the only thing

[Caller]

since they didn't appeal there, that runs always going to count.

[Rosenberg]

And I, and I think, I don't know why it took 16 minutes, but I think the biggest thing was to just piece together the video to see if he crossed home plate before the out was recorded at first.

[Don Hahn]

That's probably.

[Rosenberg]

That probably took with so much time. Right? Because what, it wouldn't take 16 minutes otherwise.

[Caller]

I mean, it's not a natural play. So that's probably why it Took so much time because that runner scored. He clearly didn't tag. It was obvious. Right. But the other team didn't appeal it. So you got to treat it like anything else, where if the guy on second base and there's a base hit and the guy tries to go to second on the base hit, but the guy scores beforehand, that run still counts, even though he's tagged out at second if he scored first.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Caller]

So I got the same concept. It's just funky. It's just funky because it was a fly ball. Nobody tagged. Right. Meanwhile, everybody knows you're supposed to tag, but that if you don't appeal that runner, he can run across home. And if you don't appeal it, the run still counts. Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

So I have a. And this is just because I want to have fun with it. Let's just say I've got a guy who's lightning fast. There are two outs. Fly ball deep, Right. So it's in the air for a while.

[Caller]

Where's your runner's the hitter?

[Don Hahn]

My runner's on third. Oh, so he just smokes home before the ball's caught? Nothing.

[Caller]

No, because it's the third out, that runner doesn't score.

[Rosenberg]

So it doesn't matter that.

[Don Hahn]

It doesn't matter. He scored. Like he crossed the plate before the ball is caught. Doesn't matter. Right. Like, because he. He can't go.

[Caller]

No, that doesn't matter.

[Don Hahn]

No.

[Rosenberg]

Right.

[Caller]

It's not a hit.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

All right. You're allowed to hit Fry as

[Caller]

well.

[Don Hahn]

I'm trying to think of beating. Like, the timing thing is what I'm trying to figure out.

[Rosenberg]

No, the only thing is that you're allowed to advance on a fly ball with less than two outs. A sacrifice fly.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

His point is, is that you don't have to. Have to touch the bay. If they're not going to appeal it, nobody's gonna know. Listen, I could get an inside the park home run and not touch third base. If they don't appeal it, nobody's going to go back in time and go, you never touched third base. Got to go back. No, too late. Yeah. No. Another. Who was the pitcher? Anthony, you might remember. Might have been Wheeler. They were showing where he wasn't on the mound. He was a little bit to the side of the mound. Nobody saw it. And he pitched that way without him touching the mound. Nobody saw it.

[Don Hahn]

You mean the pitching rubber? Yeah, yeah.

[Rosenberg]

So he reminded me. I played Summer Bowl. I can't remember his name. He's one of my coaches in Don Bosco. Tech. He was one of my coaches, one of my assistant coaches. If you're out there, please call and remind me who you were. All right? We went to Summer bowl, was Duffy's Tavern sponsored us, right?

[Commercial Announcer]

Duffy's.

[Rosenberg]

And I played Summer bowl, okay? So one of my coaches was young enough to be eligible to play in Summer bowl with me. So he went from being my assistant coach to being my teammate in Summer Bowl. And he was also a pitcher, and he pitched a complete game. And while he's pitching the game, he's like, don, watch me. I'm watching him. Every inning a little bit closer to the plate.

[Don Hahn]

To.

[Rosenberg]

By the time he was pitching the ninth inning, he was like a foot in front of the mound. He just kept. He kept going closer.

[Don Hahn]

So he wasn't toeing up at all.

[Rosenberg]

He wasn't towing up at all.

[Don Hahn]

And nobody.

[Rosenberg]

He started out, and he just crept a little closer. Look. And nobody noticed. The other team didn't know. And he figured if somebody knows, hey, he's not.

[Don Hahn]

He would.

[Rosenberg]

Okay, I'll go back.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Rosenberg]

So he was buying like, a foot closer to the easy, like little things.

[Don Hahn]

So all of a sudden, he's throwing 80. Now it's 90, right? It's just because of how close he was.

[Rosenberg]

Nobody noticed. How about this? Playing little league, Didn't. I didn't even know if you know the rule. So somebody hits a ball over my head, it's the same field you're going to play on on August 22nd with the South Softball WAG1.

[Don Hahn]

All right?

[Rosenberg]

I'm playing center field. Ball gets hit over my head. I run to get the ball. But as. As I run, I figure I can run faster. I just. I just throw my glove in the air. It actually went over the fence. The glove, right? Grab the ball, throw a P to home plate. Throw the guy out.

[Don Hahn]

You thought you'd be faster without your glove.

[Rosenberg]

I'm j. I'm. Yeah, I just. As I'm running, I'm just like. I used to do that, too. The first thing I would do after, right when I get a hit is I knock the helmet off my head because I felt like I just didn't want the thing on my head. Okay. I always did that through the glove. I'm jogging back to home plate. No, you got to go back. He goes. He get.

[Don Hahn]

He's.

[Rosenberg]

He's safe. And the guy that hit it gets awarded third because it's illegal to throw your glove. Like, I wasn't throwing it at the ball. Throwing the glove is like, you're Throwing it at the ball.

[Don Hahn]

Because the whole idea of throwing your glove up in the air to knock the ball.

[Rosenberg]

But I thought. But no, I. It was after. It was rolling, but I just kind of chucked it because I wanted to just get more speed. I thought, can't you at least rule that I wasn't throwing it at the ball? Like, no, you throw your glove, it gets rewarded. Third base, like, you find. I didn't know. I know the rule now. But no, no idiots throwing their glove. I did. And then, yeah, I. The first thing, bang. Get a hit, run the first base. I would throw my. And knock my helmet off.

[Don Hahn]

Huh.

[Rosenberg]

I wonder. I wonder if they would stop me from doing that now. Like, because now I'm not protected. Now I'm running around the bases. That Hummel wasn't like, it fell off. It fell off accidentally. What are you gonna do?

[Don Hahn]

It's pretty clear you were purposely knocking off your head.

[Rosenberg]

The other thing that I found funny, all these memories are flooding back. We were playing with nine guys.

[Don Hahn]

Mm.

[Rosenberg]

That's the minimum. We only had nine guys. Guys were sick, whatever. Couldn't make it our one. Our batter argues balls and strikes. Umpire throws him out of the game. Wait a minute. So we negotiated. He had to do. He had to do 50 push ups. The umpire said, all right, well, I won't throw him out of the game, but I got to punish him somehow. So he made him do 50. It's 80s high school baseball again, when nobody's paying attention because the other team

[Don Hahn]

also is probably like, well, we don't want to. We want to play like, we don't want a 4, 5 game.

[Rosenberg]

So you don't think that back in, like, 1899, stuff like that happened all the time. Who's covering it? There's nobody here. Well, let's also.

[Don Hahn]

Let's also keep in mind, too, like, home runs were different because fields were different.

[Caller]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

Some fields. High school didn't have fences.

[Rosenberg]

I know. So the ball. Ground rules.

[Don Hahn]

I'll tell you, your ball just kept rolling.

[Rosenberg]

Oh, the ground rules for, like, high school games, sometimes, like, they were. They weren't ceremonial. You need to know, what do we do here?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Rosenberg]

You know, ball goes in the.

[Don Hahn]

In the woods. What is. What are we doing? Is that like, what is that? If I play it.

[Rosenberg]

We played on football fields, right?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Rosenberg]

To where they would say, if you hit, like, the right field line might be. Might be 200ft away. Because it's a football field.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Rosenberg]

And the left field would be 600ft away.

[Don Hahn]

Like, like the Polo Grounds.

[Rosenberg]

The ground rule would be if you hit it in the first level, it's a double, and if you hit it in the second level, it's a home run. Because you can't just, you know, get a.200. Like, they would just make it up.

[Don Hahn]

Nobody's totally making you.

[Rosenberg]

There wasn't somebody from the Bergen Record going timeout. That's not the way it's played.

[Don Hahn]

But isn't that great?

[Rosenberg]

Like, think about it. I just want to get home and get dinner.

[Don Hahn]

I just love that it's different. And if there were any other sport you couldn't do that with.

[Rosenberg]

No, couldn't do it.

[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how the saucer made man. I just want to know it's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter Weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.

[Rosenberg]

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