Jay Bilas (1:51)

Well, they are beatable. They've been beaten three times this year. Purdue did it. Can you hear me?

Don Hahn (1:57)

We got you, Jay. That's.

Jay Bilas (1:57)

You guys got me.

Don Hahn (1:58)

Yes.

Jay Bilas (1:59)

Yeah, they've, they've been beaten three times this year. I mean, Wisconsin beat them. They hit 15 threes when they beat him at Michigan. Michigan didn't lose a single conference road game. That's the first time in the Big Ten that's happened since 1976, when Indiana's undefeated team did it. But they did lose a home game to Wisconsin and they got beat by duke in Washington, D.C. and then, and then Purdue got them in the Big Ten tournament, so they are beatable, but it's going to take an extraordinary effort. I think the difficulty with Michigan is they've got terrific size, and they defend the paint and defend the rim really well, and they can shoot it from multiple positions, so they can spread you out and they can get out in transition. So for UConn to win, I think the key is going to be controlling Elliot Cadeau. And, you know, Michigan had a tough injury issue about a month ago. They lost LJ Case in their backup point guard, which made them even better than they are now, and they're really good now. But if you can take Elliot Cadeau out of the game, and he's coming off a game where he had 13 points and 10, 10 or 11 assists, whatever it was, but he also had six turnovers. If you can take him out of the game, I think it makes it a lot more difficult for Michigan. And look, caddo is.

Public Service Announcer (3:19)

He's.

Jay Bilas (3:19)

He may be small, but he's really good at penetrating and using screens. And especially with Dai Mara, they're 73 center in the middle of the floor. That's going to be a real challenge, I think, for. For UConn to deal with because it's going to pull terrace Reed Jr. Away from the basket. Yeah.

Peter Allen (3:33)

Jay, in terms of the record of these two teams, mixed with just the level of program that we're talking about here, when. When's the last time you recall a championship game with this sort of level of cachet?

Jay Bilas (3:53)

God, there have been a lot of them. I mean, I don't recall very many championship games that didn't have a high level of cachet. I mean, you. You know, UConn's won two of the last three coming into this one. This would be, you know, it'd be probably the first time since probably the mid-90s, when Kentucky went to three straight title games where you've had, you know, a team that's had this sort of stretch and they've done it with different personnel in the last last three years or four years. Excuse me. So it's been really impressive. And UConn in the last 27 years, I guess it is now since 1999. There's not been a better program in the country there. If you just take the last 27 years, it's UConn and everybody else. Nobody else has won three. They've won six and doubled everybody up.

Public Service Announcer (4:39)

Crazy.

Jay Bilas (4:40)

Yeah, but, you know, it look like Michigan, and they're one in six. That program's one in six. In title games. And that doesn't mean anything for this one. But it's not like Michigan's there every year or knocking on the door every year. Over the last 30 years, it's been Yukon one more than Michigan.

Rosenberg (4:58)

What is it about the UConn program that just seems to, even in years where it doesn't look like they've completely got it, that they find it in the tournament?

Jay Bilas (5:10)

Well, I mean, I think when you look at, look, the number of championships, we're in a counting culture. You know, if you talk about golf and say, who's the greatest player? And somebody says Tiger woods, they'll say, wait a minute, Jack118, tiger115, debate over. You know, I tend to think it's a little more nuanced than that. But, you know, there were years from UConn's first title in 99 under Jim Calhoun where they didn't make the tournament. And, and there, there have actually been more years that they didn't make the tournament than they wanted. So there's been some kind of ups and downs in that. And I realize the landscape was a little bit different at those times, but they've had three different coaches in those 27 years that have won championships. You know, Kevin Ali won it after Jim retired and then, and then Danny Hurley now with his, you know, back to back titles. It's just a great program and they're having an unbelievable run. So they put resources behind it. It's a brand name now than it wasn't when Jim Calhoun took over in the, in the 80s and built it up into what it, what it is now. But, you know, we're also in a time where people are going, okay, you know, Kentucky's got eight national championships. Well, Kentucky won four of those before 1960. And you know, it's really kind of amazing. Like it's been 50 years since, you know, since UCLA was the dominant program and, and you know, kids today don't look at UCLA the way, you know, they did when I was younger and stuff like that. Times moved on and they're looking at UConn that way. But still, I'm not sure UConn gets, because of the way, you know, the media works. UConn's probably not talked about enough given that in the last last 27 years it's been them and everybody else and it hasn't been close, you know, on

Don Hahn (6:58)

that point, Jay, like, and you're Talking about where UConn is and three in the last four years and six for six in national championship games, but today they would be considered a blue blood. Does that exist anymore in college basketball? You mentioned ucla, like Kentucky is not the same, obviously, without Calipari there and what he was doing there, like North Carolina is going with another coach. Now is the blue blood thing is still a thing in college basketball because of nil, because of the rise of SEC and the money they've got in that conference, the breaking up of other conferences. Is there really no such thing anymore? Is it true? Blue bloods?

Rosenberg (7:38)

No.

Jay Bilas (7:38)

I mean, I think it still exists. It depends on your definition, who you want to include. You know, if Indiana were to get really good again in basketball, we'd consider them a blue blood again. But you can point to, hey, when was the last time they won? You know, they haven't won a championship in a long time. I mean, there's some, yeah, there's some ebb and flow to this. But you know, nil has spread talent around more at the Power 4 level than ever before. So you've got programs that are winning now that wouldn't have been, I don't want to say wouldn't have been possible, but would have been unlikely before. And look, I don't, I'm not claiming to understand football, but I know, I know how the college sports, you know, how the money runs and how the business runs and how the rules are made and the sausage is made. And I just can't imagine a world in which Indiana wins a college football national championship pre nil. I don't think it would have happened. Yeah, it's not just getting Kurt Signetti. It's. It's other things too. So the transfer portal coaches love to complain about it as if before, you know, everything was perfect. And one of the things that you laugh about is they'll say, well, they, they pick out Alex Caravan. Well, he stayed four years and he's done this and he's done. It's been great. And they'll say the grass isn't always greener. Well, then look at the other bench. And a Dai Mara, barely played at ucla, transferred. Now he's going to play for a national championship. And he's a, he's a potential lottery pick. Elliot Cadeau, I don't know, a North Carolina fan that was happy with him and you know, he turned it over too much, couldn't shoot. He leaves and he's crushing it at Michigan. And Yaxel Lindeborg, you know, I mean, hands up all those who don't cover the game that spent a lot of time watching him. Play at uab, they didn't. And all you have to do is turn on the television. He's first team All American. Nobody, nobody on TV seems to be able to pronounce his name. And like, he. Now he's playing on a bigger stage, and everybody really realizes how good he is. Last year, he's one of two players in the country that led their teams and scoring, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks. It was. It was Yaxel Lindeborg and in Cooper flag at Duke, like, that guy's been the real deal for a while now. But the transfer portals allowed him to better himself and his situation, and by extension, he's bettered Michigan.

Rosenberg (10:00)

Talking to Jay Billis, getting ready for UConn in Michigan tonight. I know the fallacy, the predetermined outcome and all that, but, you know, In New York, St. John's really woke college basketball, you know, up here and getting to this sweet 16 for the first time in 25 years. If they could have found a way, Jay, to hold on against Duke or get that three to land at the end of the game, could they be playing in this game tonight? Yeah.

Jay Bilas (10:25)

Oh, yeah, absolutely. With the way the tournament fell, absolutely. That's why I thought. Honestly, I thought Michigan State was going to come out of that region and UConn beat him. But, you know, that was. That was kind of a coin flip. I just didn't think with Duke, with their injuries, if they had been healthy, I think they probably would have come out of there and, you know, look what it took to beat him. I mean, an extraordinary comeback by UConn. But I figured, like, Michigan State had been playing really well. You know, the funny thing about this tournament is with all these brackets, I don't know another sport that does that. And now, you know, instead of being asked about, hey, what. What are the key points in the game. Everybody wants to know who's going to win. Like, we know, you know, go back to 1985. Everybody said Georgetown was going to win in a walk and Villanova beat him. And, you know, you've got examples of that year after year. Now, a lot of times the favorite wins, but a bunch of times they don't. And, and that could happen tonight. You know, we'll wait and see. But the way Michigan looked against Arizona, boy, it's hard to. It's hard to see a pathway to beating them. But, but, but UConn's capable of it. They play really well in big games.

Don Hahn (11:39)

Is it the clutch ability? That's where I was kind of leading to at the beginning, I love that Danny called them the Monstars, Right. Because they got such a big front line. They're scoring over 90 a game in the tournament in this run. And then again, what they did to what was a great team in Arizona or even Arizona is like, nobody did that to us all year. And what they did on a big stage, is it going to be the reliance on the clutch ability of that UConn team. We saw them down to Duke, but yet they just keep clawing their way and clawing their way. And if Michigan's going to beat them, they're going to have to make sure they go all the way to double zeros. Right. Like, are you expecting this to be a. A knockdown, drag out kind of game, or is it dangerous that it could be a blowout?

Jay Bilas (12:23)

I think a lot of it depends on. Well, I'm expecting it to be a knockdown, drag out, but I think some of it's going to depend on how UConn shoots the ball. Like solo ball, if he plays and can play close to 100% without being compromised. They shot it much better in the game against Illinois. They did in their game against Duke. And, you know, I think if they shoot it, you know, they've been shooting like 29% from three in the tournament coming into to the game against Illinois, and they made 11 or 12 threes, whatever wound up being against the Illini. If they shoot it well, then, then they. Absolutely, they can win. I mean, if they go 3 for 18 or something, or 3 for 20 from the perimeter, they're not. They're not going to win the game. I'm pretty confident to say that. But, you know, the issue is it's really hard to score around the basket against. Against Michigan. So I think they're going to have to think Terrence Reed's going to have to be out setting a number of perimeter screens and then get some of those pin downs where he can be on the move to catch the ball in the post rather than being locked down there. Because Michigan size and athleticism around the bucket is really hard to deal with. And Terrace Reed's really their only interior score.

Don Hahn (13:40)

Yeah, I was just real quick because I do know, you know, we want to let you go as quick as possible here. We appreciate the time, Jay, I know it's a busy day. It's been a busy weekend, but just a quick thought on Michael Malone and UNC and the reports that he's going to be their next head coach.

Jay Bilas (13:55)

Yeah. Mike's daughter plays volleyball in North Carolina. And so, I mean, there's a, if you call that a connection, there's a connection there. But he's also had experience coaching and college, even though it was a while ago. He's an assistant to Greg Campi at Oakland back in the day and then worked for Pete Gillen at Providence. So, you know, I think it's a. I think it's a great hire. Mike's a great coach and obviously did an extraordinary job winning an NBA title with the Nuggets. It's going to be different, you know, like now North. It seems so sort of out of character for North Carolina to hire Bill Belichick. And now they've got two former pros, you know, world championship coaches in the NFL and the NBA. Well, the college players are pros. They've been pros for 30 years now, 40 years now. People laugh when I say that.

Don Hahn (14:48)

Oh, you're right.

Jay Bilas (14:48)

Like amateur. Amateur sports don't make billions of dollars and pay their coaches millions. It's been pro for a long time. But, but I think he'll do a. I think he'll do a great job there. He relates to people really well and, and he's a good guy and I think he'll have some fun with being able to be creative. I mean, I think the one challenge there is, is, you know, this is the first coach since Frank McGuire in the, in the late 50s and 60s that doesn't have a Carolina connection. Everybody else has been from the Dean Smith family tree. So, you know, there's going to be a learning curve there as to what Carolina expects and all that stuff, but I'm sure he'll handle that just fine.

Rosenberg (15:29)

Jay, it's always a pleasure. Enjoy the game tonight.

Jay Bilas (15:31)

Thank you, guys. Great being with you.

Don Hahn (15:33)

Thank you, Jay.

Rosenberg (15:34)

Good for Jay to give us some time. So busy Getting close to tip off there at Lucas Oil Stadium. It's interesting what he said about St. John's and they, they had Duke on the ropes. They just couldn't get it done. It took a miracle for UConn to be Duke. So, yeah, obviously Elite 8, if they found a way to beat the Duke and maybe they be sitting here, right?

Don Hahn (15:56)

Well, yeah. What St. John's was missing and it's the hardest thing to find, right? Especially in this world of nil.

Jay Bilas (16:02)

Is.

Don Hahn (16:03)

Is he like Pitino got a lot of high level players that play hard and that's what makes them so difficult to play against. Defensively, they had some size, physical, older players, but what they were missing was the one guy like the the killer, you know, the bucket getter. I think that's the hardest thing to get in college basketball because when you have a guy like that, you have a chance to win, you know, win at the high level. Now, you know, Kansas got a guy like that and he didn't want to play all the time, so it doesn't always work out. But I found the last thing he said, though. You heard how he's like, you know, college basketball's been pro. This has been pro for years, no matter what anybody says. He had a fantastic breakdown of this on college, college game day before the Final Four, where they had Calipari on the set and Cal was trying to talk about the difficulties. And now you're the money that's involved. And you know, these guys, you know, they're still student athletes. And Jay's like, stop it. And he wouldn't let him do it. And he went on this long thing about, these are pros, they don't stay at any schools anymore. It's no longer about development. You're not bringing in a freshman. And then in three years, suddenly he's like a main piece for you. If you bring in somebody who's a freshman and he doesn't play right away, guess what? He's going somewhere else in the portal after one year. He's not sticking around to be developed. It's all win now stuff. They're all looking for the next contract, who can offer me more? And it's become mercenary like. And he said, so billions of dollars by these conferences from the TV deals, millions of dollars to the head coaches. And, and now the players are getting part of that money as well. We can't keep looking at college sports, especially this level of college sports. We can't look at it as, oh, these are student athletes, most of them. You're not spending a lot of time in class like, they are athletes, they're pros. And at some point it's just going to be Michigan Wolverines, not University of Michigan.

Peter Allen (18:07)

I mean, right.

Don Hahn (18:08)

It's going to just be that affiliated to the school, but not necessarily, you know, kids who go to school.

Peter Allen (18:14)

Yeah, I mean, that is, that is sort of the, the, the more honest part about where we are now, because it was always like that to some extent, but now you can really sort of own that because of NIL now.

Rosenberg (18:25)

Now the money's so big, Peter, you see him alone go to North Carolina. You see Belichick go there are you start to see more pro coaches whose options are so limited in the pros. Because there's only X amount of teams. Right. Depending on what league you're in, 30 to 32. But now that you know there might have been apprehension to go to college because am I going to be able to recruit, am I going to be able to make the transformation from dealing with a professional to dealing with an amateur?

Don Hahn (18:51)

Kids.

Rosenberg (18:52)

Yeah, I don't have to worry about that. Yeah, they're still kids but they get their pros.

Don Hahn (18:55)

Yeah.

Rosenberg (18:55)

Some of them getting paid a lot so you can almost deal with them as professionals. So I think you're going to start to see some coaches that run out of options in the pros. So yeah, I'm going to try college now. I wouldn't have done it before but now I think I can do it.

Don Hahn (19:07)

You might actually if you're a coach like a Michael Malone who's a, he's a hard driving coach. Right. He's from an old school. Now his, his father Brendan Malone was a coach in the NBA for a long time. So you're talking about somebody from an old school and with younger players you probably as we're see, as we see in college. Look at Izzo, look at all these guys. You can coach them tougher than you can at the pro level where you're dealing with now grown men, 30 year old, some of them 30, you know, 28, 30, 32 years old. That it, you don't handle it that way. It's much different. There's load management, there's everything else that all comes with it. Then maybe it's a little more refreshing to just give me a bunch of kids that I know want to get to the next level still. Yeah, they got money in their pocket but there's another place they want to go and let me coach him hard and see if I can win. Tom izzo's made a 30 plus year career out of it and that's what he does year after year. So maybe that's, that's, that is the allure of coaching in college. As long as you have a good general manager, of course running your money well, that's a big part of a

Rosenberg (20:11)

general manager because you need them.

Don Hahn (20:13)

Yep.

Rosenberg (20:13)

You know, for the money and all that. So it's really just changed the whole landscape. And yeah, you know, Jay's right. We're just, we just, you know, finally made it official. It's been going on for a long, long time. Instead of it being behind closed doors, it's up front. It's kind of like legalized gambling. Like it's really no different except now it's legal. It's out there. We can see it. But, you know, it's been going on for a long, long time. But these guys are getting paid. They're getting paid well. And go back to what Hurley said last week about, you know, developing men and teaching them. Yeah, to a certain extent, you're doing that. But some of these guys are making millions of dollars with the intent to go to the NBA, and they want to be coached like that, too. It's like, yeah, you can teach me some lessons here, but what's going to be a lesson you're going to teach me once I get drafted in the NBA, make that transition? Because that's why I'm here. Not here to get an education. I'm not here to grow as a man. I'm here to grow as a basketball player or a football player. Maybe it's a little different with football because you have so many players that there are probably some that aren't going to make it, and you can kind of groom them. But with basketball, even the guys don't make it in the NBA. They're going to go to Europe. They're going to go play something. There's a place after their college career is over, that's right. Where there could be a linebacker. Like, listen, I'm going to be a gym teacher in two months. You know, get me ready for life after football. But in basketball, fewer players, more options. Besides the NBA, like you said, G League, go play in Europe, where the money can be pretty lucrative, where most of your players are moving on to some other level of basketball.

Don Hahn (21:40)

You see, they want to expand the NCAA tournament. They want to put more teams in it because there's more money to that. And for other programs, you're thinking to yourself, okay, so even now you're a mid major. I'll give you LIU as a great example. Hofstra is a great example. What that one and done meant to those schools, you know, LIU is getting their doors blown off by Arizona. Right? Arizona got all the way to the Final Four. Nothing to be ashamed of. Right. You lost to a team that was one of the best in the country that got to the Final Four. But you got in and you played on national tv. Your brand got recognition. That's monstrous for that school. For Hofstra, same thing. And Hofstra was going toe to toe for a minute, right? They. They actually. They were giving it a game. Those are so big that now it's like, how do we build off this? You know, like, that's what it is. How do you now take this and build from it? Wait, they're going to expand the pool, that the tournament's gonna have a bigger bracket, more teams get involved. Mid majors now are going to want to invest to get their teams good enough so they can be in this tournament because of the. The exposure it gives the opportunity, it gives the money that it generates for the school. So it's. It's becoming bigger business to a point now where it is. These are not student athletes. I didn't come here to play. School is going to become the motto.

Peter Allen (22:59)

I would just like to add that when I asked my question earlier, because I feel like whenever. Don. Don, you and I have been doing Jay Billis interviews together for a long time, I feel like everything I ask always ends up making me feel like I'm a moron. When I said a game of this level of cachet, and he's like, said, they're all kind of this big. The last two times UConn played in this game, guys, it was against Purdue and San Diego State. Respectfully, what I was trying to say was Michigan is a different animal. Houston was in the championship game last year, so you did have Kansas, North Carolina in 2022. The year before that had Baylor and Gonzaga. The year before that was Virginia and Texas Tech. So we can't act like every year the final game has two of these just iconic teams. UConn, Michigan. Yes, to the really interesting point that Michigan's only one at one time. But, guys, especially living here in New York, Michigan is by far one of the biggest basketball programs in the country. So I just. I meant it in terms of that, like, this city for a four man, like. Like they're a historic program without the championships. And actually, from a New York standpoint, guys, is this going to be the most rocking. The bars have been in Murray Hill for a championship at any time in history.

Don Hahn (24:09)

Yeah, you say Murray Hill. It's funny because that's where I was, and I just saw the signs out already outside some of the bars. It's going to be alumni and arrows and all the stuff that people are going to be.

Rosenberg (24:18)

I remember, be out there for the last time. Michigan won the national championship. They beat Seton Hall. It's a lot. 1989 by a point. That was an 80, 79 game. You're talking Ramil Robinson, really big deal back Glenn Rice.

Don Hahn (24:32)

Right. And that's PJ Carlissimo on the other side, right?

Rosenberg (24:35)

Sure.

Don Hahn (24:36)

Our good friend. Friend of the show, pj I hate

Peter Allen (24:38)

to say it, Alan but at this point, isn't Ramil Robinson a. Yeah, at this point he is a bit of a strange bull. Yeah.

Don Hahn (24:46)

A bit of a strange at the time.

Peter Allen (24:47)

He was not though. He was the man.

Don Hahn (24:50)

Yeah, but I get what you, I get what Jason.

Peter Allen (24:53)

Look, they're all big, but Kansas north kid.

Don Hahn (24:55)

Kansas, North Carolina, a couple years ago.

Rosenberg (24:58)

Yeah.

Peter Allen (24:58)

22.

Don Hahn (24:58)

You know, you, you know and don't like Purdue is still a. Ah, come on. Purdue is, they are a classic Big Ten, you know, powerhouse every year.

Peter Allen (25:11)

No, listen, there may be some bias to my community. I know so many Michigan fans, I just don't know Purdue fans.

Don Hahn (25:18)

Well, that's why I asked the blue bloods question.

Peter Allen (25:19)

Yeah.

Don Hahn (25:20)

Because I don't know if they exist anymore. But.

Rosenberg (25:22)

Well, it's like asking me, you know, how I feel about a hockey matchup.

Jay Bilas (25:25)

Right.

Rosenberg (25:26)

Like, it's Jay Billis, he loves college basketball. So all these matchups are going to. Yeah, exactly.

Don Hahn (25:30)

You know, it's a great point. It's equivalent to saying, you know, the Stanley cup final hasn't had a marquee matchup in years. Florida and Edmonton. Like, who really? And you would don then say, what are you talking about? Right. You'd fight back saying it's, it's Connor McDavid.

Peter Allen (25:43)

Yeah.

Rosenberg (25:44)

Kachuk and McDavid.

Don Hahn (25:45)

Yeah.

Rosenberg (25:45)

Like I'm a hockey guy.

Don Hahn (25:47)

And so we're going Florida and Edmonton. Like, who's excited about that?

Rosenberg (25:51)

So just want to see an original six matchup or something like. So I think that's where it comes from. But I think it was a legit question by Peter because there is something about.

Don Hahn (25:59)

It's not.

Rosenberg (26:00)

And listen, Michigan is a big time program. It's not like they routinely, I think they've only gone to the championship game like four times since they won it in 89. So it's got a lot of, lot of variables that kind of make it very, very interesting. The local flavor of UConn Michigan, how dominant they were all year. Michigan hasn't won it since 89. UConn seems to win it almost every year now. There's a lot of things to get excited about.

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Don Hahn (28:51)

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

Peter Allen (28:55)

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Don Hahn (28:56)

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

Peter Allen (29:04)

This is we're gonna rub football all over ourselves today.

Rosenberg (29:08)

I did consume a lot of football back in the day. Day pre kids in my underwear.

Don Hahn (29:11)

The NFL Binge.

Rosenberg (29:13)

You watching every game. Are you watching?

Peter Allen (29:20)

How's everyone doing today? Good. Grand. Wonderful. Welcome to the NFL Binge here on Don Hahn and Rosenberg. Lot happening today with regards to the NFL, particularly if you're a New York Giants fan. As Dexter Lawrence talked about the Start the show. We'll get back into it. More coming up here in a bit. Dexter Lawrence has asked for a trade or to get paid. We spoke To Jordan Ron on earlier. You can hear that on the podcast or go back and watch on our YouTube giving his insight. He does believe that at some point, sooner than later, the money will get figured out between the Giants and Dexter Lawrence and he will remain a New York Giant. But of course, that remains to be seen. Lamar Jackson is appearing to get off on the right foot with new coach Jesse Minter as he reported for the start of the Ravens offseason workout program on Monday. Team posted video of Jackson arriving the team's facilities, along with video of him working out with his teammates. I love that we live in an era where that's such news.

Don Hahn (30:22)

It is for him, though.

Peter Allen (30:23)

Yeah. Him actually showing up to offseason workouts.

Don Hahn (30:26)

It's, it's, it is interesting because, you know, he's. It is a new coach, it's a new system. And I think he also understands they probably made it clear to him that this is your franchise. Like, he is Mr. Raven.

Peter Allen (30:45)

Like, yeah, we fired the coach for you, buddy.

Don Hahn (30:47)

Like, literally, like, think about it. So he has to be the guy that steps up, that shows up and is willing to be there to set that example. If he doesn't show up, then what? Because the standard of what a Raven has been and what a Raven is, that has been something carried over for a long time. Who is going to carry that torch now into the new era now that Harbaugh is gone? It has to be Lamar. He has to buy in. He has to be all in. And it's a good sign that he is.

Rosenberg (31:18)

It just would look bad if he isn't. Because then, then the next problem is going to be you.

Don Hahn (31:22)

Right?

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Right.

Rosenberg (31:22)

We get rid of a. A future hall of Fame coach for you and no one else to blame accommodated you and now you got to be able to come through. Now.

Don Hahn (31:32)

I think there's a lot riding on him this year. Agree or disagree? Like, I think there's a, a lot, a lot of all the quarterbacks in the NFL think about. Give me the guy who's going into a season where everyone is watching you. Now after the, after what happened in the offseason, there can't be another that you're like, dude, this is all about you right now.

Rosenberg (31:53)

Josh Allen's close, but.

Don Hahn (31:56)

Yeah. Yeah, but even close.

Rosenberg (31:58)

Buffalo made it wasn't necessarily made because, you know, Allen demanded it. It feels like this is what Jackson

Don Hahn (32:05)

wanted and at least, at least Josh has performed. Like last year's season for Lamar was not great.

Peter Allen (32:13)

No.

Don Hahn (32:14)

The way it ended, like, it's clearly there Was a disconnect between him.

Peter Allen (32:19)

I mean, listen, so far, no seasons acted ended exactly right for Jackson.

Rosenberg (32:24)

But last year particularly, but even more so, guys, the fact that you look at this division, I know Rogers is coming back. Pittsburgh's got a new coach, you know, Cincinnati. Are they going to be able to climb out of it?

Don Hahn (32:35)

Can they stay healthy? Yeah.

Rosenberg (32:37)

I mean, Baltimore should still be able to, you know, go out, win this division.

Jay Bilas (32:41)

Yeah.

Rosenberg (32:41)

So, yeah, a lot of pressure.

Don Hahn (32:42)

Do you know what? Last year, last season for Lamar Jackson represented something that never happened in his career, that the Ravens had a losing record in games that he started. He only started 13 games. They were six and seven with him as a starter. That. That's new. That never happened before. Yeah, exactly. Six, seven.

Rosenberg (33:05)

But no, it's a monster season.

Public Service Announcer (33:08)

Yeah.

Don Hahn (33:09)

I think there's a lot riding on this, man. Haven't missed a playoff. First time they missed the playoffs since 2021. And they make this kind of a coaching change, which was. Okay. We think we need a new voice in that room. So it's not that we needed a quarterback or we. No, this became a coach thing. Okay, Lamar, prove us right

Peter Allen (33:31)

now. The NFL announced Friday that it concluded its own investigation into Chiefs receiver Ashi Rasheed Rice and his situation, stating he has not engaged in conduct that violates the personal conduct policy. They looked into Rice's a former girlfriend, Dakota Jones, their relationship, and it said at this time he is not going to be disciplined by the league. Insufficient evidence to support a finding that he violated the personal conduct policy.

Don Hahn (34:00)

So he's a. He's. He better be good on the field because he definitely is a headache off.

Peter Allen (34:05)

I mean, so far that feels like it's been the bigger part of his story.

Don Hahn (34:10)

It does sure. Get Turtle now.

Peter Allen (34:12)

Dan Arlofsky was on get up this morning.

Rosenberg (34:13)

Interesting.

Peter Allen (34:14)

Had some interesting thoughts on Ty Simpson and where might actually be the good fit for Young. The young qb.

Dan Orlofsky (34:20)

If we're being honest and people won't say it, I will. Ty Simpson schematically is a better fit or marriage for what the Las Vegas Raiders would do under Clint Kubiak than Fernando Mendoza. So Clint Kubiak is a coach and he's not going to change. This is how he was brought up in football. Most of the things that he does, at least half of the things that he does from a scheme standpoint are underneath the center. If you look at it since he's become an offensive coordinator in the NFL, over 50% of the snaps are from underneath the center. That's the most in the last five plus years in the NFL, okay, Fernando Mendoza took five snapshots total from underneath the center in his college career. So this is going to be a drastically different experience from Mendoza when it comes to operating the quarterback position. And America Kubiak's not changing. He's not going to completely try to change the way he goes about offense. So I think that's going to take much more time for Mendoza to get comfortable playing than people expect.

Jay Bilas (35:16)

Oh my God. Does it stop?

Rosenberg (35:20)

I don't know.

Don Hahn (35:21)

I love Dan. This is a tough one.

Rosenberg (35:23)

I don't. First of all, can we stop with the damn press conferences already? If I don't know what I need to have happen quicker. The Knicks in the playoffs are. The damn draft. I think I need the draft really bad.

Peter Allen (35:37)

You can't take it.

Don Hahn (35:38)

One is only a week, believe it or not, the Knicks game. One, I believe, if I'm thinking of the schedule correctly, is either two days after the draft.

Peter Allen (35:47)

No.

Don Hahn (35:48)

Or a week before. A week before the draft.

Rosenberg (35:50)

Oh, geez.

Don Hahn (35:51)

That's how, that's how. That's how close these are going to happen at the same time because we

Rosenberg (35:54)

just got to stop. All right, but. But Peter and I are the losers. Peter and I are the. The rogue. We just don't get it.

Peter Allen (36:03)

No, no. Week before NBA playoffs will be the week before.

Rosenberg (36:06)

I like the draft, but this is like enough.

Don Hahn (36:08)

Isn't game one on game one of the first round is like I think Saturday the 24th or something like that?

Peter Allen (36:13)

No, no, because the. The Knicks season ends on Sunday, April 12th.

Don Hahn (36:17)

Right. And then they play the play in

Peter Allen (36:19)

and then you have the plans which will last for another what, four days?

Don Hahn (36:22)

Yeah.

Peter Allen (36:22)

So no, so it should be like what, the 18th, 19th should be the playoff start.

Rosenberg (36:26)

Yeah.

Peter Allen (36:27)

Okay, so a little bit before a few days.

Don Hahn (36:29)

It shows you how locked in I am on these last four games. Like, I don't even know when the play. I mean, come on, look at me. All right, so a week before. So Don. Don's gonna have his Xanadu all within a week's time.

Rosenberg (36:40)

There you go. Because I just can't. I don't know how they do it. God bless them.

Don Hahn (36:46)

I love it. I love the fact that he keeps

Rosenberg (36:48)

to know what you love.

Don Hahn (36:51)

It's just the conjecture, the debate that can. The options, the way it changes just for. Because a guy threw a ball in a. In a pro day that made you go, wait a minute, I see something there. You know, like all the little goofy, the things that players say, the games that are played. I love the gamesmanship of it, Don. There's so much to love.

Rosenberg (37:11)

I've never disagreed with somebody ever more than I disagree with you on this.

Don Hahn (37:16)

I understand ever

Rosenberg (37:19)

nothing. Honestly. We could not be more polar opposite. What you love, I absolutely despise with all of my being in my soul. Well, I mean, it's. It's this and Satan, like back, back and forth and sometimes this takes the lead and you love it. Satan, John, it's a conjecture. The sky's red. Give me 30 minutes and you know I never quit on an argument. I'll convince you it's red.

Don Hahn (37:45)

It's at that level you can read.

Rosenberg (37:48)

Don't just read a script, for God's sake. It's like they're acting in a bad play. No, no, no. This is. This is like Death of a Salesman.

Don Hahn (37:58)

You understand not how you're bit today. I am. I am not out of the ordinary on this. There are countless people who love this industry for this stuff because of everything that you hate about it. People love it.

Rosenberg (38:19)

My lips are quivering right now.

Don Hahn (38:20)

I know. I can see it. You're shaking.

Rosenberg (38:22)

It's. It's Michael Corleone finding out that she aborted of the baby level of like, I'm gonna throw a chair.

Peter Allen (38:30)

Listen. Well, we have. We do have some more Dan Orlofsky. It's not on the draft, though. No, no, it's not on the draft of God.

Rosenberg (38:35)

I swear to God, Peter.

Don Hahn (38:37)

Oh, I hope it's over a minute long.

Peter Allen (38:39)

No, it's under a minute.

Rosenberg (38:40)

If it's less than a minute 30,

Don Hahn (38:42)

it's like you really want to see Don lose it. That Ramapo sweatshirt, the red. It will almost look white after Don's face turns red.

Peter Allen (38:51)

While it's well under a minute and it's not on the draft. Here's Dan Arlofsky and get up talking. Jalen Hurts.

Dan Orlofsky (38:56)

Hurts has become one of the, if not most polarizing guys in the NFL. The facts and the opinions don't match. If you took every starting quarterback in the NFL and we just took him out on the field and we said, we're in shorts, just throw. You're not going to take Jalen in your top 15 because that's not his style and or strength. And I think that's where the rubber meets the road is you have facts are this. All this guy does is play well and win. And then there's these opinions of, well, I want this quarterback and that quarterback and that quarterback, that quarterback, that quarterback. Instead of them. When it comes to just playing the position

Rosenberg (39:32)

100%.

Peter Allen (39:33)

Yeah, I agree.

Rosenberg (39:34)

We were saying that for a while. I mean, the Eagle fans come out of the woodwork and rip us. The guy knows how to win, but he's not an elite quarterback. He's not an elite talent. And that's why, that's why Howie is such a good general manager, is because he's built such a talented team that they can get that kind of quarterback play and still be successful. But he's not, he's not at the level of the elite quarterbacks.

Don Hahn (40:01)

Well, yeah, remember that was a big fight last year that, that we were doing the top 10. Remember that? Because every year before the season starts, they do quarterback ranks. Yeah. And then we, we started doing the rankings and some people couldn't believe he was 10th. I think he was. He just won a Super Bowl. He just did all this stuff. And, and it's amazing that people will put up those arguments when the reality is when you take all the quarterbacks, take their jerseys away and just put them in white, just a white shirt and black pants and go out on the field and play quarterback back, we would definitely see talent wise, you'd rank them much differently than you might because of the situations they're in.

Peter Allen (40:46)

Let me ask you a question though, and I know this could be controversial. If you go back in the era and did the same with Tom Brady, is Tom Brady the one knocking your socks off when you see him next to Peyton Manning and Michael Vick, are you going like Tom Brady?

Don Hahn (40:58)

No, cuz some.

Peter Allen (40:59)

But that's the thing about hers, and I'm not calling Hertz Tom Brady, but he does have the ability to be cool and big sports spots and win big games. He's shown that.

Don Hahn (41:07)

But isn't that Brock Purdy also? Brock Purdy will walk. Brock Purdy in jeans and a T shirt walks into Target, nobody's even blinking.

Rosenberg (41:14)

Right, right.

Peter Allen (41:14)

But he, but he. But what I'm saying is with Jalen Hurts is he's got that.

Don Hahn (41:17)

He might even hand him a card and say, here you go, I'm done with this one.

Peter Allen (41:19)

But Jalen Hurts is a Super bowl champion. Super bowl mvp.

Rosenberg (41:22)

Big time arm.

Peter Allen (41:23)

He did. No, he had a big. He did. He had a very strong arm.

Don Hahn (41:27)

He worked his way to that too.

Rosenberg (41:29)

But I was thinking about it when you were talking about like Lamar Jackson, you know, remember the era before this one with the great quarterbacks, the Mannings, Breeze, Rogers, Brady, they all won like the great quarterbacks of this era. It's not many like Allen hasn't won.

Peter Allen (41:48)

Only one's won.

Don Hahn (41:49)

That's right.

Peter Allen (41:50)

Only one of the greatest one.

Don Hahn (41:52)

Right.

Peter Allen (41:53)

It's.

Rosenberg (41:54)

It's just crazy. Like there's this. There's only a couple that have won. Like, so that's why you got to give Hertz credit. But let's not forget it's not. He's not a pitcher the team.

Peter Allen (42:03)

He's a glass of water.

Rosenberg (42:04)

He's.

Peter Allen (42:05)

He's.

Rosenberg (42:07)

The Eagles beat the Chiefs. It wasn't so much like hurts beat Mahomes. Anybody would take Mahomes 10 times out of 10, even in a big spot. But that's why Howie Roseman's got to be considered one of the great general managers in sports, not just football, for putting together his talented. Such a talented team. But we're starting to see, according to reports now it's kind of coming to a head that the shortcomings of the quarterback have become a problem.

Peter Allen (42:34)

Ladies and gentlemen, that'll do it for your NFL binge on this championship Monday.

Rosenberg (42:40)

They ask why? I say why not?

Don Hahn (42:42)

I find the. Although, I know this is kind of old news, but the Cousins signing with or the Raiders adding Kirk Cousins is such an interesting.

Peter Allen (42:54)

Yeah, we didn't spend much time on

Don Hahn (42:56)

caveat because what is the. What is the Fernando Mendoza comp.

Peter Allen (43:03)

It's Kirk Cousins, kinda.

Don Hahn (43:06)

In case you were wondering, that's what everybody says. He's very much a Kirk Cousins. So is it sort of like Cousins is going to. And Cousins and Mendoza. When you think about personalities, are they both not kind of the same? It's just like getting the older version of a guy and hoping that he becomes like that. And there's another unbelievable thing with Cousins has made more guaranteed money in the NFL than I think almost anyone.

Peter Allen (43:34)

It's insane.

Rosenberg (43:36)

Definitely Tom Brady.

Don Hahn (43:37)

Oh, yeah, for sure. Tom Brady. But he has this. It's an insane number that he has done because it's all guaranteed. He got another. It's his 11th consecutive season that he will have a fully guaranteed contract.

Rosenberg (43:48)

There is something about being like he's definitely right place at right time.

Don Hahn (43:51)

What is it? He's not even. He's not even top 100 quarterbacks to ever play the sport.

Peter Allen (43:57)

Wow.

Don Hahn (43:57)

Right? Top 100 ever, ever bolt ever. Wait, wait. All time.

Peter Allen (44:03)

Correct. Listen, I love the take. I love the take. It's compelling. I think he probably is 100. Yeah, I think he probably is.

Don Hahn (44:12)

I'm going back. I'm going all ya tittle. We're going all the way back.

Rosenberg (44:16)

I know.

Peter Allen (44:16)

But the thing is, you're gonna when we go through it and break it down, Allen, up Until like the mid-90s, we'll look at the stats of all the previous greats and their stats are going to look like ass next to cousins.

Rosenberg (44:28)

They are. It is interesting you have. We'll talk.

Peter Allen (44:31)

Let's take a break. We'll talk about this. It's a great, it's a great debate.

Don Hahn (44:34)

I I this is a compliment to him about the money he's made, despite the fact that I I think there's a hundred guys that were better than him.

Peter Allen (44:40)

Yeah, I'm sure I'll take that as a great compliment.

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Peter Allen (46:27)

Built for visionaries ready to stop operating

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Don Hahn (46:37)

for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

Peter Allen (46:40)

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Don Hahn (46:42)

Catch the show on demand when whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

Rosenberg (46:49)

Just coming up on Thursday, April 23rd in New York is on the clock. Jets pick 2nd and 16th. The Giants pick 5th. Rick Dho and Dave Rothenberg are breaking it all down live. Join ESPN New York's Couch cast the second screen for the NFL draft. Real time reaction, instant takes and everything New York fans care about. Watch along, react with us and don't miss a single moment. ESPN New York's couch cast on draft night April 23 at 8pm presented by Calandra's Bakery. That'll be a long day for those guys.

Don Hahn (47:21)

Will be but they love the draft.

Rosenberg (47:24)

Well listen, they're gonna watch every second of the draft anyway. Might as well get a chance to share it with you. We'll talks of baseball coming up the five o' clock hour. Interesting weekend for both the Mets and the Yankees. Mets got off the map but they lose. Soto, he's on the IL because of a calf injury and the Yankees did drop a game against the Marlins. But otherwise everything's been really good weekend baseball wise but very interesting move yesterday. One of those moves guys. And I was in Montreal preparing for the Devils and the Canadiens when the news came down about Patrick Wa. I'm like this April fools. I need to verify the account. Four games left, wa out and Matthew Darch decides to go with Pete DeBoer. Couple of things here, Alan. Four games left, but it's been a tough sled for the Islanders. They've dropped out of the playoff race as of right now. Four straight losses. They're not bending well at all. They've left Sorokin out to dry. You're hearing rumors that some of the players were not really in love with Patrick Wall. He could be a bit much. I mean he was a great goaltender, but he could be a bit much demand as a head coach. But remember, Matthew d' Arche did not select Patrick Waugh. Patrick Wah was hired by Lou lamarello. He inherited the coach. I was a little surprised that was stuck around because I thought they'd go fresh. So now he brings in his own guy, Pete DeBoer. Because just like Vegas Allen, they don't want to take any chances. If you make the playoffs and then you're you lose in the first round. Yeah, you know the DeBoers and the Tortorellas, they get gobbled up by the teams that didn't make the playoffs.

Don Hahn (48:55)

That's that.

Rosenberg (48:55)

Yeah, if you were thinking you were going to let WA go do it now where you can bring DeBoer in rather than a chance of possibly losing him.

Don Hahn (49:01)

Yeah, I mean, that's the thinking behind it. It's. It's twofold. One, it's putting the jolt in your. In your locker room that's telling the guys like, we're dead. We're serious this year. Like, we invested at the trade deadline, adding veteran players. We feel like this should be a team that should get in the playoffs and be a threat. There are times during the later part of the year they've looked like that kind of team. And then there's also some of these games that just blow your mind defensively where they just look horrifically bad. They're giving away points, which is also a major problem when you know you're in a fight. So did the team hit a wall, or are they just sort of spinning their wheels right now with a coach that doesn't seem to be able to push the right buttons and get them, you know, playing as hard as they need to? Maybe the defensive system is not what it should be, and he was too rigid about changing. I don't know, but I thought he did a nice job. Look, when. When they brought him in, they needed credibility. They were lost without Barry Trots. He got them back to at least that. But now who can take him to the next level? Pete DeBoer is a guy that's gotten in the first year in three different stops. He's either gotten to the cup final or the conference final. Right? Am I right? In the first year. So here's a guy that knows how to get a team right. Right away out of the gate, and with the best time to do it would be right now. They have about. I think it was three or four days off before their next game, and then four games to the finish line, and they were probably moving on from WA anyway, and he was going to be one of their targets. As you said, it just made sense to make it. Make it happen now. But there's a sense of urgency right now in that organization now.

Rosenberg (50:40)

Even though Lou's gone, his son Chris is still there as an executive assistant general manager, and Steve Pellegrini is the assistant general manager. Both were in New Jersey when DeBoer took the Devils to the Stanley Cup Final in 2012.

Don Hahn (50:54)

They know him. Yeah.

Rosenberg (50:55)

Stanley Cup Final with San Jose, Stanley Cup Final with Dallas. He had success in Vegas. So he is one of those coaches that would have been taken the day or two after a coach got fired at the end of the season. I know it's jarring. I know it's kind of crazy late in the year, but if you know you're going to probably fire WA anyway if you miss the playoffs, you could bounce in the first round.

Don Hahn (51:16)

Right.

Rosenberg (51:17)

That's the chance you have to take. Because the one thing I don't like hearing is, well, there weren't a lot of expectations to start of the season. They exceeded the expectations. They exceeded the expectations and they changed the narrative. Yeah, we had a conversation a month ago, Allen, that I thought this team was good enough to go to the conference final. So who cares what you thought? At the beginning of the season there was a point where they were in second place in the division challenging Caroline, you're like, hey, if things break the right way, they could be playing Tampa, the conference final. And now here we are on April 6 and on the outside looking it for the playoffs on a four game losing streak. So forget what you thought in training camp a month ago. You thought this team would be in the final four.

Don Hahn (51:54)

You're thinking always has to evolve. Like I don't understand that. Well, you know, this season there were no expectations. I don't know why they would think they. No, because a. No one knew what Matthew Schaefer was going to be. No one had a clue he was going to be this Bobby Orr. No one thought that. Why would you? You'd be a lunatic if you thought an 18 year old can step in and become as impactful as the all time one of the greatest defensemen to ever play the game, Bobby Orr, like no one does this, but he has. And not only has he been that statistically on the ice, I'm telling you, from what I've heard what he's done for that team, some of the vets on the team, there's been something that he's done that has just given them an infusion of enthusiasm and belief that, you know what, we got a guy this we can do something. Plus you have a goalie who can get you there too. So yeah, there's reason to invest in this group immediately.

Rosenberg (52:49)

They didn't trade for Braden Shen for kicks. I mean they, they traded for him because they thought he'd be a nice piece for a playoff run.

Don Hahn (52:55)

He's been pretty good.

Rosenberg (52:56)

And now you got four games left all at home. And you're absolutely right, they don't play again till Thursday. This gives the boar a good couple of days, three days of practice to get everybody on the scene.

Don Hahn (53:04)

Do you think also that they've taught that they were talking kind of like, hey, keep an eye on the team. What do you think? What do you see? I can't imagine Pete was like, like, called up yesterday. Oh, you want the job? Oh, yeah, sure. I'll take a look. No, no. He's been watching.

Rosenberg (53:17)

Well, the conversation with just, what, like, with Tortorella? It's like, listen, we might make a change in the offseason. Would you be interested in the job once you find out he's interested.

Don Hahn (53:25)

All right.

Rosenberg (53:25)

Would you be interested in maybe taking over right now?

Don Hahn (53:29)

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

Peter Allen (53:33)

I don't want to know how the

Don Hahn (53:34)

sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good here. More More of Don Allen and Peter Weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers. Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your Team TV package. For no additional cost. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now.