Hour 2: Shams Charania joins the show

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast Summary
Episode: Hour 2: Shams Charania Joins the Show
Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg, hosts Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg, and special guest Shams Charania delve deep into the recent and unexpected firing of Tom Thibodeau as the head coach of the New York Knicks. Released on June 3, 2025, this episode provides listeners with an in-depth analysis of the decision, its implications for the Knicks' future, and the broader context within the NBA coaching landscape.

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Breaking Down Tom Thibodeau's Firing

The episode kicks off with Dan Grassa bringing urgent news about the dismissal of Tom Thibodeau (00:43). The hosts express their immediate reactions, questioning the suddenness of the decision and contemplating whether it was a premeditated move by the Knicks' ownership.

Alan Hahn muses, "Is it possible that the Dolan of old is back?... Is that even on the table or is that not an option?" (01:50), highlighting concerns about potential overreach by owner James Dolan in making executive decisions without broader organizational support.

Peter Rosenberg counters by emphasizing the lack of evidence pointing to Dolan's interference since Leon Rose took over. He states, "There's no way [James Dolan] has been back meddling since Leon Rose took over... He trusts Leon Rose, and he has every reason to." (02:39), suggesting that the decision was likely a strategic organizational move rather than an impulsive action by Dolan.

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Organizational Dynamics and Leadership

The conversation shifts to the internal dynamics within the Knicks organization. Peter Rosenberg discusses the recurring criticisms Thibodeau faced, noting that fans consistently blamed him for losses: "Every single time the team lost, it always was his fault." (04:02). This persistent negativity may have influenced the front office's decision to seek new leadership.

Dan Grassa raises the possibility of whether this decision reflects a return to the "old school" management style associated with James Dolan, comparing it to other owners like Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones who are known for making unilateral decisions. However, Peter maintains that such interference hasn't been evident recently.

Alan Hahn brings up the role of Leon Rose, the Knicks' General Manager, and his relationship with the team. He suggests that Rose might need to take a more proactive role in public communications: "I think he needs to be out there a little bit more with these things. Every other general manager does it." (17:56).

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Potential Coaching Replacements

Speculation arises about who might replace Thibodeau. Alan Hahn references a tweet from Seth Davis, suggesting a possibility of him taking over: "Based on every conversation we have, I would say that there is a greater chance that I will be the next head coach. The difference is if they called me." (08:30).

Dan Grassa expresses skepticism about relationships alone being a basis for hiring someone without substantial coaching credentials: "Don, that's not enough reason to give someone their first NBA job." (09:08).

The hosts discuss potential candidates like Jason Kidd, though concerns are raised about contract constraints and availability. Peter Rosenberg emphasizes the importance of selecting a coach with a proven track record: "Whoever is the next hire cannot have anything other than 50 plus wins and nothing short of a conference final." (36:07).

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Inside Insights with Shams Charania

Special guest Shams Charania provides insider perspectives on the Knicks' decision-making process. He reveals that although the firing was surprising given Thibodeau's recent successes, it wasn't entirely unexpected: "I wouldn't say I was necessarily, like, totally caught off guard. It is something that I had in the back of my mind." (30:06).

Shams highlights that the Knicks felt they had "hit a ceiling" with Thibodeau and believed a new voice could unlock greater potential: "They simply felt like they needed a new voice to maximize this roster." (33:48). He also touches on the possibility of further roster moves to support the new coaching direction.

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Fan Reactions and Interactive Segment

Listeners called in to express their frustrations and opinions about the firing. Caller 1 vehemently criticizes the Knicks' management decisions and demands transparency from Leon Rose: "They just fire the best coach they've had since Jeff Van Gundy... Just tell me the logic of that." (17:16).

Caller 2 draws parallels with coaching changes in other teams, suggesting that no franchise is safe from mid-season firings: "Once Denver... let Mike Malone go, for me, it was just like, no one's safe." (19:40).

Omar from Missouri echoes concerns about the lack of clarity regarding the next coaching hire and the potential for further roster tinkering: "What are you talking about? So you're telling me Tibbs is not the guy? We're going to find somebody better." (47:00).

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Concluding Analysis

As the episode wraps up, the hosts debate the future of the Knicks under new leadership. Alan Hahn expresses skepticism about finding a coach who can immediately propel the team to championship contention: "But if you think that's what it's going to take, whenever you can do a little bit more than that." (50:26).

Peter Rosenberg reinforces trust in Leon Rose's capability to make sound decisions: "Listen, like I said, Leon Rose has done enough to this point for us to trust him." (40:02).

The episode concludes with a lighthearted and humorous exchange among the hosts, reflecting on the intense and passionate discussions surrounding the Knicks' coaching upheaval.

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Notable Quotes

• Alan Hahn: "Is it possible that the Dolan of old is back?... Is that even on the table or is that not an option?" (01:50)
• Peter Rosenberg: "There's no way Dolan has been back meddling since Leon Rose took over... He trusts Leon Rose, and he has every reason to." (02:39)
• Peter Rosenberg: "Every single time the team lost, it always was his fault." (04:02)
• Alan Hahn: "I think he needs to be out there a little bit more with these things. Every other general manager does it." (17:56)
• Peter Rosenberg: "Whoever is the next hire cannot have anything other than 50 plus wins and nothing short of a conference final." (36:07)
• Shams Charania: "They simply felt like they needed a new voice to maximize this roster." (33:48)

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This episode offers a comprehensive examination of the Knicks' coaching turmoil, enriched with expert analysis, insider insights, and passionate fan perspectives. Whether you're a dedicated Knicks supporter or a casual NBA follower, Don, Hahn & Rosenberg provides valuable takeaways on the evolving landscape of New York basketball.

Transcript

[Alan Hahn]

On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan Hahn]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Dan Grassa]

I had a question and I, and I, I'm being serious and I think it's slightly uncomfortable, but it needs to be asked. Stodhan and Rosenberg, by the way, it's 4 o' clock in New York City, as well as New Jersey and Connecticut, all the way out to Long island, even Staten island, all 4 o' clock. And we, of course, are reeling from the news that Tom Thibodeau is out as head coach of the New York Knicks, fired. Officially, the statement on social media now made by the team, it is a done deal. And Allen made the point earlier that this could only be done if it had been thought about. It had been something that had been on their minds for a moment. And beyond that could only be done, Don, if they had a plan, right? Is it possible that the Dolan of old is back? The old school? Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, I don't like what I saw. I'm making a change. Everyone else says, no, no, no, we should not do this. He says, I don't give a damn. We were embarrassed. I want him out. Is that even on the table or is that not an option? It could not have happened.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Roll that back again.

[Dan Grassa]

You said, Allen, that this could not have happened without there being a plan.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right?

[Dan Grassa]

Right. And I agree. Good organizations don't make moves like this without a plan. Is there a world in which the more meddling Dolan of old is back and this wasn't a good organization decision? This was an owner making a rogue emotional decision after feeling like he was embarrassed in a playoff series.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm going to say no, because there hasn't been evidence of that since Leon Rose took over. Because the evidence has been, and the consistent message has been that Leon Rose runs the organization. What he suggests, that's what we do, Right? He has often said that he doesn't want to meddle, doesn't want to get involved, that it is something that he leaves up to people he trusts and he has also admitted, I think it was on the Roommates podcast that he had said that the problem was, is that, you know, I'd hired people, I trusted him, and then got to a point where I can't trust him anymore. He trusts Leon Rose, and he has every reason to. He's done nothing but have success here. This feels more like it was brought to his attention. I don't think it was brought to his attention yesterday, but does that. Again, I'm spitballing, of course, because it's based off of your speculation, so I'll speculate back. What I've seen suggests that this is something that might have already been, like, you know, in discussions, because, again, it has been prevailing in the media, among fans. This is not a new thing. This didn't come out of nowhere. This isn't a coach that wasn't constantly under fire. We've already said this.

[Dan Grassa]

That's right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Every single time the team lost, it always was his fault. Always. So that stuff trickles up, and eventually it just gets louder and louder.

[Dan Grassa]

So that means.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And if I'm an owner, that's the first thing I'm doing, is go, you know what? We keep hearing this. People aren't happy about him. Well, are we happy about him? What are we doing? You keep asking that question because it keeps coming up.

[Dan Grassa]

But. But to your point, wouldn't that mean it would have had to have, at some point affected Leon Rose, who, as you pointed out earlier, is very close with Tibbs?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Dan Grassa]

Like, why would Rose have. He would have thought this was the time or he's hearing from everybody.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Another great example is what did the players say when you talk to the players and how do they feel and what did they think? And this, again, is not a one conversation. This is over time. Hey, a couple of things. Now, I'm not trying to build the case against Tom Thibodeau. Please. I don't do that well.

[Dan Grassa]

And you're a fan.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I believed in him, but I also know what I know. And Josh Hart goes to the coach and says, take me out of the starting lineup. We need to play. Mitchell Robinson. And Tibbs resisted, and then he went back to him again and said, you got to take me out. You got to play. He needs to play more. We got to play him at the start of quarters. We got to play, like, get me out. Like, so you're pushing now for a lineup change that he was resistant to when the players had to come together during the Pacer series and say, you got to play more guys off the bench, you got to do it to a point where then he started doing. Just starts to become the players almost begging him to do things that he was resistant to doing. And the more evidence you see that's problematic. That's what I mean, the more. If I'm watching it as a. As somebody in charge, it starts to become like, all right, we're having a disconnect and they're having a problem.

[Dan Grassa]

And then on top of that, you're also watching a coach of his generation run circles around him. In that series.

[Peter Rosenberg]

In Ricarloff, you blew a game one lead, 17 points, like, you blew that lead. So to me, this is not a last 24 hours kind of thing. This was a sense of it coming. I always use the phrase Sword of Damocles. I felt like it was hanging over him for the majority of the season. And it was just. They were. People were waiting for a reason. Give me a reason to do it. And when the season ended, there was this feeling of this team's really close and maybe it just needs a new voice that takes this group of players and sees something different in them to get more out of it. And that, like, Tibbs got the most he could out of this team, but that doesn't mean that that's the most anyone can get out of this team. And that seems to be, again, just reading tea leaves, not being told anything. That's what it seems to be.

[Alan Hahn]

It seems to be that now, if obviously Leon Rose was let go today, that would be a Dolan thing. Oh, yeah, that's a different story. And Chris Drury was given an opportunity, much to the chagrin of a lot of people. He was given a contract extension after Laviolette was gone, after they had missed the playoffs. So Jim has shown at least recently, that if he trusts his front office, he's not going to do what Peter suggests.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No.

[Alan Hahn]

Now, could you both be right where the organization felt like going to the conference final was enough and that the way that it looked against the Pacers, Dolan may have said, I think we should execute our plan. I mean, that's possible. The one that called attention.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The whole point is this. It's like, well, let's go into next season and see how it goes. Well, if we're going to do that, why don't we just do it now? Right?

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Like, if it was ever suggested, which is what I was actually saying. Remember, I was saying all along, I'm pushing against it, pushing against it. But the truth is, if you go into next season and it's a slow start or things don't go well, then, yeah, you could see a potential move happening then I think then the obvious response would be, then why wait? If that's already your thinking going into next season, just do it now and start fresh, start clean, have a full training camp, a full off season with the new voice. If that's what it's going to take. If that's already in the back of your mind, well, if things don't go well, we can. We'll do it during the season. No, then I agree, you do it now. And so that's what it feels like. But I want to make it clear to everybody, I am trying to piece this together and trying to read it as I'm seeing it happening live with you while you're listening to me.

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So this is not something that I had planned. This is. There's no script here. This is strictly piecing it together as what I'm seeing and basing it off of things that I remember throughout the season that I'm trying to recall in real time now.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't know if you saw the Seth Davis tweet. I've been working with Jay Wright on TV for three years. Based on every conversation we have, I would say that there is a greater chance that I will be the next head coach. The difference is if they called me.

[Dan Grassa]

I'd say, yes, you started that sentence with, I see a tweet from Seth Davis and I thought, what on earth could I possibly care about what Seth Davis is gonna say?

[Peter Rosenberg]

They work together very close, but then.

[Dan Grassa]

Sitting right next to him at that desk for the last three years, that is valuable. Now, by the way, though, a lot of people say things to their friends and family about their level of interest in something, and then something becomes a real thing. I just maintain the J. Wright to the Knicks story is fan fiction. I truly don't think you telling me how perfect it is because they're all friends, that they love each other. Don, that's not enough reason to give someone their first NBA job.

[Alan Hahn]

When we talked, I only brought it up because I'm just really aghast at the fact that after what Brunson said in Game 6, this happened. Brunson's a Big Tibbs guy. You heard that quote? I'm sure you could probably find it. Yeah, he was almost offended he was asked to quote, like, really?

[Peter Rosenberg]

We can put that back up on the page, guys, because I'd love to hear it again a second time. Now, knowing what we know, this is.

[Alan Hahn]

A Guy that you have cap space because of him, you become a de facto general manager when you become that important to the future financially, he is the face of the franchise. He loves his head coach, has defended his head coach. You've went against his wishes. At least it appears so. I just thought, all right, who would be the coach where maybe he'd say, okay, now I'm good with it. I don't know if it makes any sense. I don't know if he wanted the job. I'm just thinking aloud about what's a replacement to Tibbs, where Jalen will be like, okay, other than his dad.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I like that name. Well, here, if you missed it, this is the last words Jalen Brunson spoke since Tom Thibodeau lost his job. Do you kind of feel that going forward, he's the same guy to lift.

[Shams Charania]

You guys the rest of the way that next level?

[Alan Hahn]

Is that a real question right now? You just asked me if I believe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

If he's the right guy. Yes.

[Alan Hahn]

So it was, like, foolhardy. Now, could Jalen have been saying, are you really right now, five seconds after I just lost the worst game of my life, I'm going to ask about the coach's future. But I take it as I love this guy. He's not going anywhere, and I know.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How important, or there's no blood on my hands. Like, do I think he is? Yes, I do.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't know him like you do, but I would think Jalen would just. Would he lie or if he knew?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, he didn't lie. Remember, he was asked, do you think?

[Alan Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And his response was, after first of all, feeling like you put me on the spot. You're really gonna do this? Yeah.

[Dan Grassa]

Because that could have just meant, are you really putting him on the spot?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Are you really doing this? Okay, well, my answer is, yes, I. I do. Like, that's that. Because put yourself in that situation, someone that you really believed in, cared about, knew, did a ton for you to help you get to this elevated status that you are as a player. Right. Really did defended you every night whenever you didn't get called all that stuff. So, you know, you'd have. But you also, in the back of your mind, knew the rumblings are going on behind the scenes, and who knows what's going to happen?

[Alan Hahn]

It's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You also had. There's no way he's caught off guard. And so your response would be simply to say what he said.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Are you asking me?

[Alan Hahn]

But it definitely goes on record.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think he is.

[Alan Hahn]

It Accentuates that he's probably not happy right now. Now, Dan Grass had a great tweet. Puts it all in perspective. The Knicks, five years before Tibbs. 130 and 264.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A.

[Alan Hahn]

329 winning percentage and zero playoff appearances.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

In the next five. 226 and 174, a. 565 win percentage.

[Dan Grassa]

4.

[Alan Hahn]

Four trips to the playoffs.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He.

[Alan Hahn]

Listen, maybe a friend of mine texted me this.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Playoff wins in the last two years. Budenholz was 0. Spoelstra 1, Nick Nurse 2, Doc Rivers, 3. Steve Kerr, 5. Taron Liu 5. Tom Thibodeau. Tom, 17. Yeah, I just named you a whole bunch of brand name coaches.

[Alan Hahn]

You better. The next hire better be somebody that brings a pretty significant resume.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, there can be a ton of pressure on whoever.

[Dan Grassa]

I hate this for Tibbs, man. It's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I do, too.

[Dan Grassa]

He couldn't have done more. He could not have done more with the group of players he's had since he got here. I'm sorry. I don't know what he would have done.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm telling you that he and his coaching staff are a group of obsessed people when it comes to this game. Obsessed. The hours that they put in. I try to tell fans who get mad and they want to just rip him for everything I said. Do you understand that this man and the coaches that he works with are as obsessed with the team as you are? In fact, I would say they're more obsessed than you are because you live your life, you go do your. This is what they do 24 7, preparing for games, getting the team ready. They care more than you do about winning, of course, even it's hard for a fan to understand it. They care. So you could say, well, he didn't do a good job, fine, if that's what you want to say. You can say that now because he lost his job. But you cannot say that he didn't give everything he had for this job.

[Alan Hahn]

And this could be it, right? I mean, he's 65 years old.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You never know.

[Alan Hahn]

You never know. But if you had to bet, hard to believe you would think, yeah, he might get another coaching job, but will he be in a position to win a championship? And now you look back at his coaching career and say, yeah, good coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Made the conference finals twice, but, you.

[Alan Hahn]

Know, not a great coach. And meanwhile, with the right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Did a lot of winning, though, for a guy that's not a great coach. Did a lot of winning.

[Dan Grassa]

A lot.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Gets you organized and you win.

[Alan Hahn]

There's a Lot of coaches like that, right? Like I said, it always goes to the same. Until recently when Dusty Baker won with the Astros. That was Dusty Baker.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's a good one.

[Alan Hahn]

Marty Schottenheimer, he'll get you 11, 12 wins in the regular season.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Very good.

[Alan Hahn]

And then something will happen in the playoffs. It just.

[Dan Grassa]

That's in the wise words of Shooter McGavin, I was too busy winning. Tibbs did his share of winning, man. He really did. And he is. The fact of the matter is, everyone has been celebrating the last month. You know, they named streets after the players. It wasn't just because they got a win in one series. It's because things feel markedly different. And he is as big a reason for that as. As anyone, short of Jalen Brunson.

[Alan Hahn]

You know, those are the guys for sure.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah. Again, if you're fourth all time in wins in a franchise that has been around for almost 100 years, I would say you're doing something.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, but there's always those guys, right? Buck Show Walter. There's tons that you know how good they are. You know how good a manager Buck Show Walter is. He knows the game backwards and forwards better than anybody. But, you know, it's really hard to win, man. And some guys just luck into it and they win a bunch of titles and you're like, they're good coach, but there's better coaches. But unfortunately, we live in a world where we count the chips.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

And that's the ultimate. But drop the mic. He's got this many rings, right? But are you really or were the circumstances great? You know, it's pretty incredible. Frank and New Rochelle, you're on. Don Hanna, Rosenberg.

[Caller 1]

Hey, guys, how are you? Look, you know, the idea of a new voice to me is stupid. You just read off Tibbs, his record. It's all about winning. And he. So that's one. Number two, this idea of Bridges and his one comedy made during the season, we can't hang our hat on that at all. You guys mentioned that. That's just not even on the radar. And last, can we get Leon Rose on the radio? This guy has a carte blonde free. He never talks. He's never ever in the media, never, ever speaking to any station. Now, today or tomorrow, he needs to come on the air and answer questions by you guys directly. Even if he lies to us, just get him on the air and tell him why. Did he pretty much fire the best coach they've had since Jeff Van Gundy? And the previous coach was Pat Riley. These are Nick fans That. Look, fans know the deal. You just read off all the numbers. The numbers are what? The numbers are all those horrific coaches. Isaiah Thomas, Derek Fisher. I mean, it goes on and on. And we get the coach here who everybody says can't go the next level. Really? How do we know this is not the same team as last year? They had two new starters. That is not the same team. It's just not. So he has one year with the new team, per se. Brunson, the captain, defends him to the max. And what does the owner do? And Rose fires him. Just tell me the logic of that. There is no logic at all.

[Dan Grassa]

I don't logic.

[Caller 1]

Franchise is one of the worst enfranchises in the history of basketball. They might be around the longest, but they are one of the worst franchises. With every so often coming up with like, a Tibbs or a Van Gundy or Riley, it's just very frustrating.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, that's the scary part here, Don, because if this. If this doesn't go the right way and they make some weirdo hire, the last few years are out the window. You're back to being a trash franchise. You have to get this right.

[Alan Hahn]

And all of a sudden, Tibbs goes from, you know, a guy that a lot of fans got on to, where he just becomes a legend.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right?

[Dan Grassa]

Oh, my God.

[Alan Hahn]

You joined the Tibbs days. Hey, listen, I love Leon Rose. He's done a tremendous job.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There's no reason to doubt Leon Rose.

[Alan Hahn]

But the one thing I'll say is that I think he needs to be out there a little bit more with these things. Every other general manager does it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I have told him he has a standing invitation to come on whenever he wants, and he won't do it. And it's. It's just, you know, this done from the Rangers. It's just the Garden's operating procedure. They don't make leadership available in these types of settings.

[Alan Hahn]

I know, but he's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But, you know, they don't do it.

[Alan Hahn]

Chris Drury doesn't. But we. But he was on the Case show when he got the job. Lou lamarello hated talking to the media. He would talk. Brian Cashman, you know, he talks. I think there's an obligation when you're an executive in New York. Doesn't have to be all the time, but. Yeah. We have not heard from this guy. I know you had a chance to interview him on msg, if I'm not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Mistaken, last time that he did an.

[Alan Hahn]

Interview, but he is the only executive that has not made the rounds. Joe Douglas barely Spoke. But Peter, how many times we have him on three, four times during his tenure with the Jets?

[Dan Grassa]

Not much.

[Alan Hahn]

You know, obviously we'd always have Jerry Reese when we go to camp. Shane's been on, like, I just think that's just part of the job. But, you know, nobody calls him out on it because he's been so good since he's been here, so nobody cares. But I think times like this, you got some explaining to do. Now, I'm sure he'll talk about it during the press conference when they introduce the new head coach, but it's probably going to be more about the new head coach, but I guess we'll find out information. But I just think you owe it to the fans to kind of be up front when something like this takes place. But ultimately he's going to be judged on the winning and the losing A in the Bronx or Brooklyn. You're on espn New York. What's up, man?

[Caller 2]

Hey, buddies, thanks a lot. Real quick. I was conversing with my neighbor, you know, and I had mentioned that I wouldn't be surprised if Thibodeau got fired this summer or early in the next season. And the reason for that was because once Denver, who won a title two seasons ago, let Mike Malone go, for me, it was just like, no one's safe. And that was pretty much the point I wanted to make.

[Alan Hahn]

Fair.

[Caller 2]

And I think that with Thibodeau and this playoff run.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What?

[Caller 2]

I'm not a Knick fan by any means, but I know a lot of Knick fans. I'm in New York and natively, so, you know, when they're in these positions, I root for them. But running to the bench when you're on the brink of elimination at that point to me was kind of like, why are you doing that now? Putting those guys in at that point wasn't, I think, the best basketball coaching move to do if you're trying to get back into the series. And I just thought that Thibodeau reacted too late. And Rick Carlisle again out coached him, which with Spolstra, happened the same way when they went against the Heat. Granted, the Knicks weren't like a complete team as what they are.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I mean, like, the one thing I'll say E is that don't say Carlisle coached him again. They were up 3, 2 the year before and players were dropping left and right with injuries. So let's, let's not do the out coached him thing. And that Heat team that the Knicks took to six games and were one play away from Force and a seven. If you remember late in that game, Brunson and Randall had a miscue and they could not get a game winning bucket that would have helped them force a seven. That team went on to the finals. That team beat the Celtics in the conference finals. So that was. That Heat team was on a run.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So this year, everything he said about this year and the late decision to go to bench and all that stuff, it did feel like grasping. A lot of grasping was going on. It felt like players definitely were in his ear. From everything you heard between Josh Hart and others that were talking about it and they have reached this incredible like again, this incredible decision. You know, some things to think about. So you mentioned Michael Malone won a championship. Two years later he's gone like late in the season gone. And that team took the Thunder to seven games in the second round. Seven. If the Thunder roll through the Pacers and win a championship, the Nuggets were the only team to give them a problem in the playoffs. That says a lot about what Denver has versus what they were looking like. The Timberwolves went to back to back conference finals. And I don't think Chris Finch, their head coach is on solid ground there either. You know, they have new ownership there. A rod's part of it. Who's to say that they. Tim Connolly's their gm. He was the GM in Denver. Who's to say that Connolly doesn't see Michael Malone available and say I'm bringing my guy in, that's my coach. Bring him in. And they let Finch go. And now you got another coach that has had success. But the feeling is that's as far as he could take the Timberwolves. So you know, that's. That's another. Another situation to watch of another team that had success and might move on from the coach. I don't. I'm not saying they are. I'm just saying it's just when you, when you pay attention to all the. Connect all the dots. The gm, his head coach is now available. The guy he won a championship with in Denver. The head coach that they have now in Minnesota has had success, but that's as far as he can get them. If there's a move there, it's just another example of a team that just feels like they need a new voice.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And this might just be a thing in the NBA right now. Well, it seems I'm trying to make sense of it.

[Alan Hahn]

It's a lot to try to make sense of.

[Dan Grassa]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

Race the rudders, race the sails.

[Alan Hahn]

Race the sails.

[Dan Grassa]

Captain an unidentified ship is approached coaching over Roger Wait.

[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Dan Grassa]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Caller 3]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast.

[Dan Grassa]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Hahn]

Game Time is brought to you by Teleportu Irish Whiskey because when it's game time fellas. The Mets continue their series with the Dodgers coverage immediately following. Dan Grassa on 880 at 930 and the Yankees start a series with the guardians of the stadium at 7:05 Tullamore do the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast mature and Irish whiskey. Be sure to grab a Telemore due to or try the new Tullamore Do Honey during today's action glasses up to enjoying Tullamore do responsibly. Mets had a win last night in 10 Lindor. Sixth time this year he's let off a game with a home run. And you know what the streak is up to on how many wins the Mets have in a row when Lindor homers 6, 27, 2727 consecutive games they've won when Lindor homers Wow. So lot going on with the Mets, but right now there's a lot going on with the Knicks and Sham Sarani is going to be joining us in a couple of minutes while we wait on him. Let's go back to the busy phones at 1-800-919-3776 and let's talk to David on the east side.

[Dan Grassa]

You're on Don Hun Rosen yeah, so two points.

[Caller 4]

One. I think the Knicks are acting like the Mets when they should be acting like the Yankees. Impulsivity over patience, focusing on the media narrative, expecting perfection instead of realizing you had something special. Taking a huge risk because frankly any coach is a new huge risk that you hire the wrong guy and you take a step back instead of taking a step forward. Even if you find the right guy, the odds that it comes together in year one are minuscule. So that's my concern. Number one. Want to get your thoughts on that performance.

[Alan Hahn]

The pressure is going to be immense on the next coach to win immediately because they just went to the conference flight. So you're right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But the Yankees made a very similar move.

[Alan Hahn]

Yes, but they've been patient since then. Since then, but they haven't listened to the face.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They had that young core. They had all that stuff 2017 happened and they just felt like we needed a new voice right yeah, but that.

[Shams Charania]

Was after Boone had been there for.

[Caller 4]

10, after Girardi had been there for over 10 years, too.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Caller 4]

So, you know, that was patience with Girardi, as if he was at the end of his era anyway, my team number three. So I'm really concerned, of all people, about Rick Brunson, because that in turn affects Jalen Brunson. Rick was an assistant for Tibbs. He wasn't like a nepotistic hire. They had a working relationship with the Bulls and the Wolves. The genius of that whole dynamic is you had Jalen Brunson taking less money to come here and to stay here to play for his dad and play for a head coach who wanted his dad there.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, I would say that has to have all been considered, unless they've literally given up on running a professional, professional operation. These things have all been considered.

[Peter Rosenberg]

These conversations have been had. Yeah, I, I, this is not in a vacuum, everyone. Not in a vacuum. Let's get more information here, shall we?

[Alan Hahn]

Yes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Sham Charania, who broke this story. Oh, well, to say about an hour, almost two hours ago now, joins us right now, giving us a few minutes. And Shams, I'm sure it's been a, a busy couple of hours here. I just want to start with simply this because as much as you, you know, you've, you cover the whole league and you have your pulse on it, did this even for you, come as a surprise?

[Shams Charania]

It was definitely a surprise around the league, but I wouldn't say I was necessarily, like, totally caught off guard. It is something that I had in the back of my mind. I've been checking over the last several days, last couple days, especially since they were eliminated. There's a lot of chatter, even after games one and two against the Pacers that, you know, there was a lot of unhappiness about how those first two games went and about Tom Thibodeau's coaching. But it definitely got real over the last 24, 48 hours when, you know, I began to hear, and I said it on SportsCenter yesterday, that the Knicks were holding a lot of internal meetings about evaluation of their coaching staff. And whenever that takes place, that means that it is at least somewhat possible. And so I didn't rule it out, continue to check on it. And obviously they made the decision today until Leon Rose informed Tom Thibodeau in person, face to face, that he was being let go, that he was out. And so it wasn't necessarily a surprise to me. But listen, I think the entire NBA is shocked, is stunned, just on its face, a coach that made the playoffs four or five years, a coach that won 50 games plus for back to back seasons, for the first time in Knicks history since the 1990s, made it to the first Eastern Conference finals in 25 years, had the most, you know, success that this team has had in quite some time. And so when you factor all those things in and then you think about in the 20 years prior to his arrival, they had only won one playoff series and now you have, you know, you win you in three playoff advances in a row. So I think just in totality, there's a lot there that that makes you surprised. But it is something that I felt was possible.

[Alan Hahn]

Do you think they already know who they're going to hire to replace him?

[Shams Charania]

I haven't gotten that feel. My sense is that over the next several days, the Knicks will start their coaching search process. And that's when Leon Rose, James Dolan, the rest of that front office are going to really get together. They made their decision today to move on from Tom Thibodeau. Of course, they have to know some idea of which candidates they look at. I'm sure they have an idea about which people they'll speak with, but I don't know quite yet exactly who that next coach is going to be.

[Dan Grassa]

What are you getting from other people? I'm sure, as you know, you were the first to break this sham. So I'm sure you've heard from people the level of surprise from other executives and people around the league that you've.

[Shams Charania]

Spoken to, just stunned because of all the success that Tom Thibodeau brought them in his five seasons and the growth that this team had over five seasons. Then you compare it to the prior 20 years before he got there. But I will say that the sense I do get from all my conversations around the Knicks and around this decision was that they simply felt like they needed a new voice to maximize this roster. They felt like they had hit a ceiling with Tom Thibodeau as their head coach. They feel like the next head coach, whoever that ends up being and for right or wrong, is in everyone else's eyes. But they believe that next head coach that they hire will be better suited than Pompeo to lead them to a championship. And so time will tell, but they feel like their window to win a championship is right now. They feel like their window to win a championship was this season, especially as you see Indiana make it to the finals. And they felt like they were, you know, they were two wins away from winning a Championship they were. Or from getting to the championship, they were right there in the thick of it. And so they felt like they had hit a ceiling and that's why they go and make this decision. But listen around the league, this. This is definitely stunning for everyone I've spoken to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Sean. This team made a lot of changes last off season with a couple of massive trades to change what their starting lineup looks like with a coaching move. Is that like the only major move you can see them making in this off season, or are there indications that there are still moves that they want to make to get to that championship level?

[Shams Charania]

I'm not going to rule anything out after this, but I will say, you look at the history of Leon Rose, the last year and a half, the big trades he's made, like you said, Ogden, Anoby, McKill, Bridges, Karthi towns, they've made all these acquisitions and the goals of trying to win a championship, and I think they felt like they had positioned themselves. Usually when you make a coaching change under these circumstances, you feel like the coach is a problem and you want to do what you can to maximize the team as is with that iteration. We saw it happen with the Cavs. They. They let go of J.B. bickerstaff, who then goes to Detroit. He does a great job in Detroit. But they bring in Kenny Atkinson and they feel like Kenny Atkinson is able to take the same team with a couple of minor changes to go to another level. And they did for the regular season, had some injuries in the playoffs, so the Knicks could go that route as well. I think there will be activity from the Knicks regardless. If it's not going to be a landmark player, I think they're going to make changes on the bench. I think you look at Landry Shamet as a guy that played really well to finish in the playoffs. But what does the guard depth look like? What are the wing depth do you have? What other center depth do you have? So I don't think they're just going to stand with this current roster as is. I think there will be some level of movement.

[Dan Grassa]

Sean, thank you, man. This is a big day for you. We appreciate you carving out some time.

[Shams Charania]

Thank you, guys.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Appreciate you.

[Dan Grassa]

You know what's interesting about the one that's hard on. The one thing Sean just said, though, that does stand out is, you know, they. They felt as if there's more they could get out of this roster. Like, I see that. Exactly the opposite. I don't think they could have gotten much more. This roster is really good to me, they're just short of a championship run roster. They're still a play. I don't mean they're a superstar away from a championship, but they're one more little piece that they just didn't quite add.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'll play along because I'll, I'll do the devil's advocate thing.

[Dan Grassa]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Again, I'm, I'm. As much as I will defend Tibbs, I also can look at it from many different angles. Like I'm not stubborn like that.

[Dan Grassa]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And when you saw what Delon Wright and Landry Shamut brought in the playoffs, you said it's hard not to say. Well, that probably should have been a thing more than just late in the playoffs. That should have been a thing more often now you could argue what would that have done? Match ups and things, you know, being the Detroit series, they were a lot more physical. You needed more physical players, whatever it is. But the sense is that there, there should have been more with the rotation and that that was one of the questions we provided you players. You didn't use them all. You got fixated on a certain amount of them and that's it. And so there's a lot of arguments you can make to and fro. I just, But I keep going back to this because I've read you all the numbers and I've given you all the, you know, his resume. Sham said it too, that the guy has done nothing but win here. And I would say that whoever is the next hire cannot have anything other than 50 plus wins and nothing short of a conference final. Well, like that. Isn't that like that is setting such a high bar out of the gate? Because if the roster only has what he just said, the tweaks, right. Starting five is what it is. Add a couple of pieces on the bench, which they can do, and you upgrade the roster a little bit. Okay. They believe the championship windows now, you heard Sham say, and that means this year and moving forward, if that's all the case. And whoever takes this job has got to know that there is a very.

[Alan Hahn]

High bar we're going to do. Talk about a Tuesday coming up next because I want to dissect more what Sham said. The two things that stuck out to me, number one, that they're a championship. They were a championship team going in. I never felt that. I never felt they were a championship team. Now maybe you pivoted because you beat Boston. We were saying, you said at the beginning of the season, it's not about this year. So I don't Know why they exaggerated themselves to be a championship team when I don't think anybody looked. There was an opportunity that presented itself because of.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There was a point this season where they had moments where they looked like a team that could listen, do that.

[Alan Hahn]

That's the problem with this Knicks team. There are always moments, but then there's other moments that tell you, I don't know how they can't, can't get out of their own way. It's about finding that consistency. But. And Shams is in the know, it sounds like they don't have their guy, that they're going to go look for their guy. How do you know you're going to find him? How do you. So you're telling me Tibbs is not the guy? We're going to find somebody better.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You got it.

[Alan Hahn]

You got to know. You got. But what if that guy says no? What if that guy can't get out of his contract? Let's say it's Jason Kidd.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Ye.

[Alan Hahn]

Let's say I heard Jason Kidd wants out of Dallas, but Dallas asked for the moon and the stars and you don't want to give it to him. Then all of a sudden, we're not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Releasing from the contract. They'll have to trade for you. We want picks.

[Alan Hahn]

I mean, if everything is like, ready to pop right now, Alan, if, if you believe the report that they're, they're in the dark on who this next guy is going to be. I mean, this all made sense to me. If they said this guy's available, we got a chance to get him. Now I think we can grab him. And Tibbs isn't going to stand in the way.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There's a Hall of Fame coach that, that, that is looking for. Again, this goes back to 99. Phil Jackson was a free agent, didn't have a coach, didn't have a team. He had left Chicago. He was out there. That's a different story. You want to strike. You want to get him before the Lakers open up. The Lakers fired Del Harris, and then all of a sudden the Lakers became a contender. There is no hall of Fame coach out there that makes sense.

[Alan Hahn]

And tell me you're looking for him, but what if you can't find them? The only way you fire a coach and you don't know who the next coach is, is that the coach that you fired was just ridiculous. I can coach the team myself and do better. That's not the case here. But I got to believe there's somebody in mind. But to not know.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen, like I said, Leon Rose has done enough to this point for us to trust him.

[Alan Hahn]

I agree.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Until he fails that trust, I think you still have to say to yourself, this guy's made a lot of really smart moves. And so he. You got to trust that whatever's going on here, he's got a plan and he knows who the next coach should be. And they've got to go execute that now.

[Alan Hahn]

All right. Talk about a Tuesday coming up next.

[Dan Grassa]

Are we doing that?

[Alan Hahn]

We're going to do it coming up next. I wanted to be able to give it its time.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, and we. I have to talk about something, too, because I've got. I've got what appears to be a war brewing between people I care about deeply.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay, well, I want to find out about that.

[Dan Grassa]

One of them is sitting right next to me, doesn't even know he's in the middle of a war.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay.

[Dan Grassa]

It's a busy day.

[Alan Hahn]

Don, Han and Rosenberg. I'm intrigued.

[Dan Grassa]

Everyone's true.

[Alan Hahn]

He dated espn.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What'd I do?

[Dan Grassa]

No, you'll find out.

[Alan Hahn]

Is it even you?

[Dan Grassa]

Oh, no, it's him.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, okay. Well, that takes a little of the intrigue out of it.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, but who's the other side of it?

[Alan Hahn]

I'm still on ESPN New York.

[Peter Rosenberg]

At gmc, ignorance is the furthest thing from bliss. Bliss is research, testing, testing the testing until it results in not just one truck, but a whole lineup. The 2025 GMC Sierra lineup featuring the Sierra, 1500, Heavy Duty, and EV. Because true bliss is removing every shadow from every doubt. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more.

[Caller 3]

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[Alan Hahn]

This episode is brought to you by Stay Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability, amount of Discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Dan Grassa]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes you just can't take it anymore. This is let's Talk About It Tuesday with Don Han and Rosenberg, sponsored by Better Help.

[Dan Grassa]

That's right, betterhelp. Mental health is health. And a bunch of people texting me right now. Several different sources have reached out to me to share that I have two people I care for who are apparently having problems again. And I thought I'd already solved this once and for all.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What now?

[Dan Grassa]

But I'm looking at social media and none other than the goat, the 16 time champion, the kiss stealing wheel and dealing limousine riding jet flying son of a gun who kissed all the girls and made him cry. Ric Flair decided to post a picture of shanae and Monica McNutt. I went, well, that's interesting. Why is he posting? My colleagues from ESPN and he writes, this is Ric Flair, mind you. Good God, could we have a lot more Monica and Shanae and a lot less Alan Hahn who has never done anything and couldn't do 10 push ups on the best day of his life. And if you ever call LeBron James old again, I will find you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Please find me.

[Dan Grassa]

Big perk. When you're a two time all American and a two time All Star. Get back to me then.

[Alan Hahn]

Woo.

[Dan Grassa]

What did you do, man?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I didn't do anything. In fact, I believe this morning on get up I said LeBron James is the face of basketball.

[Dan Grassa]

That's what I saw a clip saying.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That like I was praising him. But Nate's probably, you know, having a morning mimosa, whatever. Missed it maybe misunderstood. I don't know what to say there. But I can also promise him that I certainly can and have done 10 pushups. 10 pushups.

[Dan Grassa]

I would say right now at this.

[Peter Rosenberg]

In fact, I could probably push him.

[Dan Grassa]

Up 10 times I think right now. And I love the nature.

[Alan Hahn]

I think you can take his life.

[Dan Grassa]

I think you could. I think he'd struggle with you right now. I think it'd be a struggle. I think, I think nature now he's, he's got that old man strength for sure. And he's still in the gym and.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He, and he tends to still be a little oily, right?

[Dan Grassa]

Still oily, still in the gym.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Slippery. It could be a slip. He could be a slippery little sucker.

[Dan Grassa]

And he's taken a lot of a Lot of punches over the years. Yeah, but I. I think he's sleeping on the athleticism. My guy. Alan, Han, over here. What did you do?

[Alan Hahn]

What did you do to make him hate you?

[Dan Grassa]

Man? I don't know what this is.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, I think it's just easy, low hanging fruit. I think he was using me as a way to flirt with Shanae and Monica. Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

This is nothing.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's using me. I am. I am nothing but a conduit for him. This is his way of find of finagling a way to mention them, get in their mentions without having him make look too obvious. Like where he looked like he was a little too thirsty, but he's thirst trapping and he's using me as his way in.

[Dan Grassa]

You're the bait in the thirst trap?

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, my God. Yes, I'm the bait. No doubt about it.

[Dan Grassa]

This is shocking and unexpected.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, you don't think. Come on. Like, this is. It's an obvious play. When you don't have game, you have to use someone else.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, now you're saying, as you weigh it, now you're saying Ric Flair has no game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm suggesting at this point, I don't think he has any game.

[Alan Hahn]

Imagine. Other than just like a super.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I think. I think he likes what he sees, and he's trying to find his way in, and he's using me as the way in. And then, you know, Perk took a straight, too, for some reason. Why is Perk taking?

[Dan Grassa]

Yeah, I don't know. What did Perk say today?

[Peter Rosenberg]

But, hey.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, there you have it, folks. As if there wasn't enough going on in the world of Alan Hahn today, he's now got beef with Ric Flair.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah. All right. Nature, come at me. Come get me. Come get me again.

[Dan Grassa]

Well, we're going to keep it brief because I want to get back to all the tibs. That's talk. Let's talk about it Tuesday. Sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com timeout today for 10% off your first month of therapy.

[Alan Hahn]

All right, let's go to Omar in Missouri. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Omar? What do you got?

[Caller 4]

Gentlemen, thank you for having me on. Appreciate you. I think there's a little bit of a revisionist history seen as how the bench just played like crap all 82 games throughout the season. It was countless times where Tibbs would put in four or five guys into the game, into the rotation, and they didn't do anything besides deuce and. And at times, Landry but that was well after Landry came back from that injury. And so secondly, I just don't understand how you can get rid of a guy that's for 65 years has been a fan of the team.

[Shams Charania]

Bled for.

[Caller 4]

The team, and then now you just get rid of him. I mean, you're just not going to find a guy like that. And I don't think Malone is that guy. And quite frankly, a lot of these guys haven't. They've only been to that hump one time. So what is, what does that mean for them?

[Dan Grassa]

Well, I don't. I don't know. For me, I think the history with the team part is less relevant. And you know, it's nice we know how much this meant to Tibbs. But guys, these jobs are not charity. No, of course it's not. It bums me out for him, Dom, but that's not the reason you're making.

[Alan Hahn]

Feeling bad for him because of his age. Will he get another chance? He grew up a Nick fan. That's all irrelevant to me. What it's about is who gives you the best chance to win. And the thing that irritates me even more now after hearing from Shams is the fact that we don't know who the next guy is. If that's the case, that's a bad job because then it's more about we can't win with Tibbs. We'll go find anybody else. Now if they got somebody else lined up, I don't know who it is. Is it Jason Kidd? Can you tell me right now Jason Kidd is a better coach than Tibbs that is going to get them a championship. That Malone's going to get them a championship. Who else? Who else we throwing out?

[Dan Grassa]

How many chances he get as well?

[Alan Hahn]

I'm just saying all the great coaches are all under contract. Do they know something we don't? Is Curran happy in Golden State? Are they going to. Is Kid going to be able to get out of his deal in Dallas? Are going to get out of his deal in Miami?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, none of that. Said the Kerr is not going anywhere with Steph Curry there, right? So he's not going anywhere.

[Alan Hahn]

So who are we talking about?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't know.

[Alan Hahn]

And that's why it's really hard. I don't. Of all the names we've thrown out, can you sit there and tell me they're better off with that coach than with tips?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Definitively tell me again. I can't. But if the sense in the locker room is the players just reached a point of like, we need more. Like, this is. Like there's. They need to be coached more. I don't know if. If they reach that point in these meetings that this is, you know, like, this is not it. We need more.

[Alan Hahn]

Just be careful.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And the new voice is what they're looking for. And who that new voice is is going to be important. That new voice had better have experience.

[Alan Hahn]

There is a team that shares the building with the Knicks, chasing a championship just like the Knicks have. And listen to the players and making it about the players. And it just keep changing coaches. And now they're not in a rebuild, but a lot farther away from a championship than they were last year. So just be careful, guys, all right? Because the last I checked, nobody on this team has done anything right. There's no. How many rings are on that team, Alan? All right, do they have P.J.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Tucker?

[Alan Hahn]

All right, so there you go. That's it that I got to listen to what the player listen, I think the players supposed to have to say, especially in the NBA. But sometimes what the players want isn't necessarily what's best for them as far as what wins and losses are concerned. So I'd be very careful because again, I've seen it at the Garden with the Rangers. Keep the core going, keep changing the coach, and they change the coach again. Hopefully Mike Sullivan's the right guy, but they're a lot farther from a championship than they were just last year. So you get into a vicious cycle where it's about the coach, it's about the coach to win. All right, maybe it's not about the coach. Maybe we need to do a little bit more than that. And Shams just admitted they're probably still going to tinker with the roster.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Anyway, thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how the sausage is made, but I just want to know it's good. Hear more of Don, Alan and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.