Hour 3: Getting Old & Michael Lombardi

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg – Hour 3: Getting Old & Michael Lombardi

Podcast Information:

• Title: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg
• Hosts: Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
• Episode: Hour 3: Getting Old & Michael Lombardi
• Release Date: August 5, 2025
• Description: The trio delves into New York sports, offering insights, debates, and stories from the world of sports and beyond.

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1. Mets' Recent Performance and Brett Beatty's Error [00:30 - 03:01]

The episode kicks off with a discussion centered around the New York Mets' recent game, highlighting Brett Beatty's crucial throwing error that led to their downfall.

• Peter Rosenberg introduces the topic:
  "Everybody finding different ways to lose. The Mets got it done with Brett Beatty yesterday. A throwing error. That's the culprit this time." [00:30]

• Ty Butler analyzes the play:
  "It was a hard punt and he's trying to go to second base and keep the double play in order. Just didn't complete the play there." [01:21]

• Peter Rosenberg emphasizes accountability:
  "How do you feel about that, Ty? Is that taking accountability?" [02:00]

• Ty Butler critiques the Mets' key players:
  "Juan Soto is hitting a .185 in his last 38, 30 games. That's not great, Soto." [02:16]

2. Yankees and Mets Relationship in New York [03:01 - 05:37]

The conversation shifts to the intertwined dynamics between the Yankees and Mets, and how their performances impact each other.

• Ty Butler points out the Mets' reliance on Yankees:
  "The Mets better be thankful for the Yankees because if not for them, we'd be forced to talk about how Juan Soto is hitting a .185." [02:16]

• Peter Rosenberg elaborates on their connection:
  "It's such a great point you make about the Yankees helping things out because as much as these two teams are not connected when it comes to the conversation in New York, they are very connected." [03:01]

3. Jets' Struggles and Justin Fields' Performance [05:37 - 09:54]

A deep dive into the New York Jets' challenges, focusing on quarterback Justin Fields and the team's offensive strategies.

• Steve, a listener, raises concerns about the Jets' inconsistency:
  "They go on these streaks, they lose five, they win five, they lose five." [03:35]

• Ty Butler compares Justin Fields to Trent Dilfer and discusses his limitations:
  "He's going to have to make some throws like it's the NFL. If he can't make those throws, they're not getting to nine." [05:39]

• Peter Rosenberg reminisces about Aaron Rodgers' injury and its impact on the Jets:
  "When he went down, they said, he's not getting up. I was completely shaken." [09:00]

4. Personal Anecdotes and Injuries [10:04 - 19:22]

Hosts share personal stories related to sports injuries and discuss the broader implications of aging in athletics.

• Peter Rosenberg reflects on Michael Kirk's injury:
  "I'm going through my head like the... Is he a top five receiver? I don't know if he's a top five receiver, but he's certainly top ten." [40:34]

• Ty Butler shares a childhood memory related to athlete injuries:
  "I've Talked about. But he's a really good player. He can't get in the hall of fame." [09:19]

5. Guest Introduction: Michael Lombardi and His Book [22:26 - 26:31]

The hosts welcome former NFL GM Michael Lombardi, discussing his new book "Football Done Right," which examines the history and nuances of NFL coaching and player legacies.

• Peter Rosenberg introduces Lombardi:
  "Joining us now, the former NFL GM, three-time Super Bowl champ, and current GM of UNC football, Michael Lombardi." [21:54]

• Don Hahn discusses the essence of Lombardi's book:
  "The book's about really the history of football... starting with the White Oaks, coaches who established the league and the systems that we use today." [22:40]

6. Insights from Michael Lombardi’s Book [26:31 - 32:46]

Michael Lombardi elaborates on the influence of legendary coaches, the Hall of Fame criteria, and the evolution of football strategies.

• Michael Lombardi critiques Hall of Fame selections:
  "Marty Schottenheimer is one of nine head coaches in the NFL with 200 wins, yet he can't come up for a vote to get in the Hall of Fame." [26:31]

• Discussion on Football Rule Changes:
  "The past protection rules have changed... Dick Night Train Lane could probably not play today." [26:42]

7. Current NFL Issues: Contracts and Player Valuation [32:46 - 38:44]

The conversation navigates through contemporary NFL contract disputes, focusing on Micah Parsons and Terry McLaurin, and how teams evaluate player worth.

• Ty Butler brings up Micah Parsons' contract situation:
  "How would you handle that if you were the GM of the Cowboys?" [32:47]

• Michael Lombardi discusses negotiation strategies:
  "They run to the media and complain about your contract to cause enough uproar to get a raise." [34:00]

• Peter Rosenberg debates the value of Terry McLaurin:
  "Is he better than Jamar Chase? He probably wants more money than Chase. Should he get paid that?" [35:31]

8. Future Games and Predictions [38:44 - 44:40]

The hosts look ahead to upcoming games, making predictions and discussing potential outcomes based on current team dynamics.

• Peter Rosenberg talks about the Giants' upcoming game:
  "Giants first home game is week three against the Chiefs. Yeah. Sunday night." [44:40]

9. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts [44:40 - 39:54]

The episode wraps up with light-hearted banter, promoting listener engagement, and teasing future discussions.

• Peter Rosenberg encourages listeners to subscribe:
  "Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts." [38:54]

• Ty Butler and Peter Rosenberg engage in playful conversation about the episode’s content and future topics:
  "Jacob's dude. If right now for the culture, I do my homework." [39:53]

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Notable Quotes:

• Ty Butler on Justin Fields' Limitations:
  “In the end, he's going to have to make some throws like it's the NFL. If he can't make those throws, they're not getting to nine.” [05:39]

• Peter Rosenberg on Marty Schottenheimer's Hall of Fame:
  “Marty Schottenheimer is one of nine head coaches in the NFL with 200 wins, yet he can't come up for a vote to get in the Hall of Fame.” [26:31]

• Michael Lombardi on Coaching Criteria:
  “There's no coaching criteria that really allows the coaches to get their due process.” [26:31]

• Don Hahn on Football's Evolution:
  “The past protection rules have changed... Dick Night Train Lane could probably not play today.” [26:42]

• Ty Butler on Player Contracts:
  “He wants to be traded. So what team's going to pay you 38 million and then trade two number one picks to Washington?” [34:57]

Key Discussions:

1. Mets' Performance: Analysis of recent game losses due to defensive errors and the Mets' reliance on key players like Juan Soto and their current batting struggles.

2. Yankees-Mets Dynamics: Exploration of how the performances of the Yankees and Mets influence each other within the New York sports landscape.

3. Jets and Justin Fields: Detailed critique of Justin Fields' performance, comparing him to past quarterbacks, and discussing the team's offensive strategies and potential.

4. Aging in Sports: Personal anecdotes from hosts highlighting the impact of aging on player performance and injury susceptibility.

5. Michael Lombardi's Perspectives: Insights from Lombardi's book on football history, coaching legacies, and the criteria for Hall of Fame inductions.

6. NFL Contract Negotiations: Examination of current contract disputes, player valuation, and the strategies teams employ to manage salaries and trades.

7. Future Game Predictions: Hosts share their expectations for upcoming games, specifically highlighting matchups like the Giants vs. Chiefs.

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Conclusion: In this episode, Don, Hahn, and Rosenberg provided a comprehensive analysis of current New York sports, delved into the intricacies of NFL coaching and player valuations with guest Michael Lombardi, and shared personal stories that highlight the challenges of aging in professional sports. Their engaging discussions, combined with expert insights and relatable anecdotes, offer listeners a deep dive into the world of sports from multiple perspectives.

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Subscribe & Stay Updated: To catch more insightful discussions and stay updated with the latest in New York sports, subscribe to the Don, Hahn & Rosenberg podcast on your preferred platform.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. That sounds like heaven to me. Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers. Don Han Rosenberg on a Tuesday, 5 o' clock hour. Lot to get to today. We have not gotten to the Mets a lot yet today, but we're going to do so right now. Get the phone lines open for you. 1-800-919-3776. Everybody finding different ways to lose. The Mets got it done with Brett Beatty yesterday. A throwing error. That's the culprit this time. Here's Mendoza on Beatty's error in the 10th. Yeah, it's the right decision there.

[Ty Butler]

You know, it's a hard punt and he's trying to go to second base and keep the double play in order. Just didn't complete the, the play there, you know. But I thought once he bunted hard at him, you know, he had, he has a play at take on base. Like I say, we don't play catch. And we threw the ball away.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Here's Beatty on the air.

[Ty Butler]

I just got to make a better throw on that play. The bunt was kind of up in the air, so I knew the runners were going to have a tough read on it just because it went straight up into the air.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And then I got it on one.

[Ty Butler]

Hop and I got to make a better throw than that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So how do you feel about that, Ty? Is that taking accountability?

[Ty Butler]

Yeah, it is. But listen, the Mets better be thankful for the Yankees because if not for them, we'd be forced to talk about how Juan Soto is hitting a calm.185 in his last 38, 30 games. That's not great, Soto. Listen, I, I didn't want to be that salty Yankee fan on here early, you know, ripping him when he was struggling. I tried my best to be objective, but he has not been himself this season. And, and it's becoming a problem when the Mets are losing games because their big guys can't get the hit. Last night it was Alonzo. Couple of nights ago was Lindor and Soto. So Listen, they certainly have enough talent to get it done. It's just not happening for them. And I think a big reason, like we can talk about the pitching and their starters not giving them enough, enough length, but if Soto and Lindor are not hitting, the Mets are not going anywhere. And that's the fact that it matter.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, it has been. It's such a great point you make about the Yankees helping things out because as much as these two teams are not connected when it comes to the conversation in New York, they are very connected. And the Yankees have been bad in such dramatic fashion that it really has helped out a Mets team in terms of attention being placed. Let's go to, let's go to the phones. 1-800-919-3776. Yankees fans, Mets fans. I mean, hey, listen, maybe, maybe even jets fans. Steve wants to hit Mets and Jets. What do you got, Steve?

[Steve]

How you doing, guys?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Good, buddy, how are you?

[Steve]

Great, great. Nice to talk with you. So my Met point is, I don't know if it's Mendoza or we're overhyping the talent. I know you just said, oh, Lindor's got all this talent and Soto, obviously they have talent, but there's something not right. I mean, they go on these streaks, they lose five, they win five, they lose five. But it's not showing me seriousness in terms of contending. I don't know why they're not bringing up the kids from the farm system to, to maybe bring in some rotation innings, but something's just not right. And as far as the jets, you know, everybody's freaking out about Fields. He didn't have a good practice the other day. If they play smart football, meaning they just let the running backs do their thing and Fields is more of a Trent Dilfer, I think they can win some games. Wanted your thoughts on both of those points.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Do you see Fields as a Dilfer?

[Ty Butler]

I think, by the way, I don't think people are freaking out about the Jets. I don't heard a lot of freaking out. It's just reporting on what's happened.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I don't know if people see it that way either. I think freaking out would imply that they had high expectations in the first place. I don't think there's anything to freaking out of it.

[Steve]

Maybe he's not meeting the low expectations.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, yeah, I mean, what level? So, so what level? Win loss wise, Steve, do you have expectations for this team?

[Steve]

I think they can be a legitimate nine or ten game winner. If they do it. If they do it smart if they put everything on field, no, but if they can balance it and again, make it more of maybe not Trent Dilfer, but somebody in that mold where they just manage the game and let the running backs do their thing because you have a lot of talent there. And then if Mason Taylor comes off this injury strong enough, let him control a little bit. You don't have to go for the deep bomb all the time with Garrett, even though you have that opportunity.

[Ty Butler]

Look, I look. Appreciate the call, Steve.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I, I thanks, Steve.

[Ty Butler]

I don't think the jets identity will be. Let's, let's air it out with Justin Fields. I think they understand his limitations and what he brings to the table. And we're all, like, excited about, you know, him and Breeze hall and Braden Allen and what that running game looks like. But in the end, he's going to have to make some throws like it's the NFL. Like, you can try to mask your quarterback as much as you want. Late in games, you're going to have to make some throws. And if he can't make those throws, they're not getting to nine. I don't think they're getting to nine or 10 wins to begin with. But with his inaccuracy, if that doesn't get corrected, they're certainly not getting there.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was listening to Jake Asm yesterday. He was doing a great job filling in for Michael Kirk, and he was talking about Breece hall being such a huge fantasy player for people this year with the way that they're going to use him. And it was funny last year before the I know Anthony knows where I'm going. Before the season started, we were talking about best running backs and I don't know, Anthony, if I'd go as far as far as saying, you scoffed at me, but when I didn't have Breeze hall at the top of the list, he's like, Breeze hall and he's going to be one of the best running backs in the league. Are you convinced that the Breeze hall we're going to get this year ties what everybody expected of him two years ago?

[Ty Butler]

I think. Listen, after listening to like, you know, working with Bart Scott, Scott, as I have a lot this summer, like, you get put on to a lot of what was happening in the building and the reality is, like Rogers checking out of a lot of run plays, Breece hall wasn't given the football enough. And I think aside from injury, I think we'll see closer to the version of Breece hall that people were expecting last year this time around because they Desperately need him and he's in a contract season, so, you know, run him into the ground. I don't think the jets will give him a second contract. Run him into the ground. You won't have an Aaron Rodgers in the huddle checking out of plays. So the combo of him and Justin Fuse, I think that's where they're going to find their most success.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Man, it is just so hard for me and I can't imagine what it's like when you are a Jets fan getting geared up for like anything. Jets. It's just so.

[Ty Butler]

Don't, don't start that. You got Jaden Daniels. Oh, no, no, no.

[Peter Rosenberg]

By the way, stop.

[Ty Butler]

Brady Dynasty Patriots, by the way, stop that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This has nothing to do with my fans of the Commanders, but I know.

[Ty Butler]

What it sounds like.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's. Oh, but that's you being affected by us having Jaden, not me, because I would have said this no matter what. As bad as the Commanders have been, I still dread Jet seasons. Because you guys realize we can now look back at the Aaron Rodgers thing for how bad.

[Ty Butler]

It was terrible.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They got the guy, they had the team, everything was in place. The defense was solid. They had stars on the defensive side of the ball. They have offensive weapons. Then they got fine, a slightly depleted, but one of the greatest of all time.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah, but he got hurt.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But that's part of it. God is just the worst.

[Ty Butler]

I'm convinced still. And people can come at me if they want if he doesn't get hurt. That first season, we were, we were crazy to think super bowl because, I mean, the jets were never winning the super bowl that year. But they would have been. I think they would have been a playoff team. That first year. He got hurt.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But, but, but I totally agree with you.

[Ty Butler]

I smell a rewrite.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm just. Exactly. I'm just including the getting hurt part in the jets of it all.

[Ty Butler]

So what's the. So two years ago, the AFC Championship game is what? Ravens, Chiefs. And then Kansas City beats. Who did Kansas City beat in the super bowl that year? Niners, I believe it was.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ty Butler]

So there's like when I remember those Ravens and Chiefs teams, do I think, listen, the jets could have beaten them in the playoffs. I do not. But could it. Could they have made like the divisional round? Could they have won a playoff game and all of a sudden it's different.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But they didn't ty. It's like, I get that if my if was a spliff, but that's part of it. They destroyed Aaron Rodgers he went from being Aaron Rodgers to like a weird joke. It's. He literally transformed into a different person. He walked into the building and just became clown.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Ty Butler]

And it's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean, he was on. He was trending clown. But once he got there, he put on the red nose and everything.

[Ty Butler]

You know what's crazy? Yo, so I'll never forget everything about that night and how excited I was the Monday night. The Monday night game. I had a bunch of friends, some family. Like we. We met up at this spot. We go to the surround sound Jet, you know, Jet. What was it? Jet Bills on all the TVs. Yo, we were hyped. Then you saw Rogers coming out with the American flag. That the environment was what they say, the vibes are immaculate. That's what it felt like.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What. It was crazy.

[Ty Butler]

And now, yo, the crazy part is like that video gets used as a joke. Him coming out with the American flag, rushing out. It's like some, like anytime I'm trying to think of the joke that I last saw it used as. But it's like when you know it's not gonna last a long time. Like, they use that video.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's appropriate. And I remember, by the way, I was sitting in the spot that I'm in right now next to my wife. We had. Did we do a. Where did we do the show from that day, Anthony? Were we. Yes.

[Ty Butler]

Oh, man. That was you and Don at the Fanduel Sportsbook racetrack.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Ty Butler]

And there was that horrible thunderstorm and lightning storm. Says that a bet omen. And then Michael was somewhere because. And I say that. And I don't remember what road trip or Yankee game he was at.

[Peter Rosenberg]

RG3 was on the show.

[Ty Butler]

RG3 was on the show. He came by because it was a Monday Night Football game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yep. And the show ended at 7 o' clock and the kickoff wasn't till 8:25 or whatever. So I hustled home, we ordered food, and my wife and I sat down with Baron Rocky and we were ready to go. And I was actually. I know this is hard for people to understand. I was excited because we have the jets on at the time the jets are on our air. We talked to the coach every week. We had had a great conversation with Rogers. I'm envisioning a year in which Football Mondays are not going to be lamenting about how awful the two football teams are. By the way, when he was in his prime, because of Ballard's packers obsession, I watched so much Packers. Like, I was a pretty big Rogers fan. Me And Don always said, Don and I always were simpatico. That at his prime, we believe he played the best quarterback we've ever seen anyone play. So I was ready, Ty. And when and when he went down, they said, he's not getting up. I was completely shaken. I was like, no way, this isn't happening. This isn't happening. And then I saw his face. It looked eerily like my face when I got to the elevator yesterday. This is not what you want. What the hell is going on here? And I say that and we go back on this horrifying story. Just to say that, like, I hate bringing up jinxes in sports because it's really hard for fans. Like, how does something just get better? But man, it's just hard for me to get excited about anything. Jets because even when it seems like they have the best situation, it all comes crashing down, you know what I mean?

[Ty Butler]

Battlemen. Maybe having RG3 on the show wasn't the best idea.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, that is. That aged really badly.

[Ty Butler]

Very badly. How about this? So you have a six month old, soon to be seventh month old that morning. So this is two years ago that. So this is Noah, my oldest. Now he's four. That morning I put him on a jet onesie and within five minutes he had like exploded all over himself. Like pooped his pants to the point where I had to change it. And I immediately hit the group chat up like, yo, I don't know if this is a sign of bad things to come, but this is just what happened. That's what happened. I put Noah on the jet onesie, pooped right through it within five minutes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Explosion, explosion up the back, the whole.

[Ty Butler]

Nine up the back. It immediately into the tub. Gotta throw the onesie away. Like there's that. That's irredeemable at this point, man. And then that night, Rogers tears his Achilles.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Now, speaking of which, because somehow we've circled back around to the conversation about me because now it really is about being washed. Because let's be honest, I said this and I and I got into arguments about it. Ballard actually arguing at the time. I firmly believe the Rogers injury was also age related. I hate when people are like, no, it was just freak. It has nothing to do with that. You can't tell me that. You can't tell me that something freak happening isn't more likely to be catastrophic when you're 40 than when you're 28. I'm sorry, I've done the stupid thing. I've done the steps yesterday a thousand times and I don't. All of a sudden, I'm not able to walk.

[Ty Butler]

But it was. But to your point, man, that was more. So if we're doing the pie chart, let's play a fun little game. What was that related more to age or the uniform he was wearing?

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's a great. I will go. I'm going to call that a nice 50. 50.

[Ty Butler]

And that's what depresses me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let's talk to Joe Chappaqua. You might pick it up, Joe, for me. Thanks, guys. Joe, what's up?

[Steve]

Hey, Peter and Ty, how you doing?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Good, man.

[Steve]

So, on the conversation of weird injuries, about 10 years ago, I parked my car. I was in a parking lot, reached back to grab something in my backseat. I literally pulled my shoulder, and I had to go see a chiropractor for about a month just to get it. My range of motion back.

[Ty Butler]

Wait, Joe, how old are you?

[Steve]

Well, I'm 50, about 52 now. So this was. I was early 40s.

[Ty Butler]

Oh, man, that's a rough one. That is. Located your shoulder. That's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And by the way, I'm hoping. I'm hoping my situation is what Joe is saying. Thank you for the call, Joe. My hope is that as a result of me jumping up the stairs, I just get pt because I'm going to go tomorrow up to Westchester, and they're going to check me out. I guess give me an X ray of some sort, and then they'll come. Mri.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah, that sounds like an mri, right? You gotta get a scratch. See, that's the thing. You got to get a script for an mri. Then you go do the mri. I don't know if you do that immediately. Anytime I've gotten an MRI wasn't, like, immediate.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, they told me I'm going up there to get checked out, so they know what to do.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah, but checked out can just be like a physical examination. I don't know if you're going inside an MRI tube. I could be wrong. Yeah, it'd be X ray first, then mri.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Here. Here comes. Here comes Ballard again. Tatum and Halliburton pop their Achilles because of age. It's a different sport, bro.

[Ty Butler]

And Tyrese also had a calf injury that he was dealing with, so.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, I get it. No, I'm not saying every time an Achilles has ever gone its age. What I'm saying is when you play quarterback in the NFL, plays happen every single day in which you have to evade a rusher and do something, and you don't nick the grass, tear your Achilles, and end your season. It is possible. You just can't remove it. The bottom line is the burden of proof Ballard isn't on me. It's on you. The, the fact of the matter is when some sort of freakish stupid injury happens and you're 40, it is very easy to assume and I think you'd be silly not to assume that it at least is related to it. I'm not saying it's snapped because he's old. I'm saying he's in the situation in the first place because he's old.

[Ty Butler]

I, I think what you're saying and I, I would agree with that. Shout out Ballard, by the way. Appreciate you, bro. The probability of that happening increases the older you get.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Absolutely one. That's it. I'm not saying it 100. I'm not saying it's old and he snapped and it snapped. I'm saying exactly the probability.

[Ty Butler]

Also not saying that if you're young, it can't happen. We're just.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course not.

[Ty Butler]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It just, it just goes up. Now. The Achilles thing in basketball, by the way, is a whole separate conversation. So like, to me, I think there's a conversation that's not really being had enough about what is going on with players. Achilles in basketball and like some of those things that people bring up, like the sneakers or the way the games played or whatever it is, there is something else going on because like I don't remember a time in our youth, guys in the 90s when in one playoffs two or three big time players all go down with Achilles injuries. Something is, it seems like is happening in that regard. Rare, very rare. I remember not hearing about Achilles tears that often. And by the way, that does cross my mind with what happened on to me yesterday too because the Achilles. Well, when I play, when I play basketball. You may remember this in the stories around the celebrity game from 2017 when I started playing pickup to get ready for that game, my Achilles would hum and I went and got Achilles braces to play with because I went to a doctor and he's like, at your age and at that time, guys, whatever, late 30s, he's like, if you haven't been playing ball, if you're feeling anything like in your calves, your Achilles could go. So I, there's part of me that thinks this could be related to just the whole region here, the calf, Achilles, something like that. This is an ad by BetterHelp. These days it feels like there's a vice for everything. Cold plunges, gratitude journals, screen detoxes. But how do you know what actually works for you? With the Internet and information overload about mental health and wellness, it can be a struggle to know what's new, true and what actions to take. These days, using trusted resources and talking to live therapists can get you personalized recommendations and help to help you break through the noise. With over 30,000 therapists, better help is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better Help, our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] timeout that's betterhelp.com timeout. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast. I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. Peter Rosenberg, Ty Butler on this Tuesday. And joining us now, the former NFL gm, three time super bowl champ, and current GM of UNC football, Michael Lombardi. And he has a new book, football Done Right, setting the record Straight on the Coaches, players and history of the NFL. Michael, first of all, welcome to the show. We appreciate you taking some time.

[Don Hahn]

Thank you. I appreciate you talking about my book. Thank you so much.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course, man. Well, talk to us about it because it sounds like a lofty title, right? It sounds like you're getting into a whole lot. So what exactly is the book about?

[Don Hahn]

Well, the book's about really the history of football in the sense of it starts out talking about the White Oaks, which are basically the coaches who have established the league and the systems that we use and the trees that most of the coaches, coaches who operate under today have come from where they understand. For example, you know, Sid Gilman, the father of the, you know, really developed a lot of the passing game. Bill Walsh, Paul Brown, you know, we wouldn't be anywhere if it wasn't for Paul Brown and his ability to orchestrate player personnel within the coaching framework. And then, you know, the great Bill Walsh with the west coast offense and Clark Shaughnessy, I mean, nobody realizes this, but Clark Shaughnessy, he started the forward pass. If it wasn't for Clark Shaughnessy, we would not have forward pass at all. So I think to me, that's where I wanted to start the book and then going from there. You know, I talk about, you know, the impact that television had on the league. Who are the best coaches of all time in the league. And then of course, naturally to the top 100 players in the league, based on what I did. And as I wrote about in this edition, you know, I saw this book as. Do you ever watch Larry David and Curb youb Enthusiasm? I saw this book as a middler. You know, Larry David, in one of his episodes talks about, you know, sitting at the middle of the. Whoever sits in the middle of a table of a dinner party has to stir the conversation. Well, that this book was intended to be. Got a bit of middle.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And. And is there one. Is there one good example of sort of. Because. Because football done the right way. Is there one sort of main example you can come up with? Maybe a fundamental untruth, you know, something that just said a lot about the game that you really wanted to get to and either correct or explain in this book?

[Don Hahn]

Well, I think one of them already happened. I was passionate about Sterling Sharpe. I had him in my top 100 players because I think he. It was an injustice what they did to him in the voting system. They tried to say he didn't play long enough. And yet, you know, they allowed Terrell Davis to get in the hall of Fame, Tony Biselli to get in the hall of fame. Pacelli played 10 years, but for an offensive lineman, that's not a long as career. Really. It's one of the shortest ones. So I think that was it, you know, and then I want to spur the conversation and really about Marty Schottenheimer. I mean, Marty Schottenheimer is one of one of nine head coaches in the National Football League. One of nine that have won 200 games in his career. Not. Not counting the postseason, 200. He's won 200 games. He's one of nine. There's been over 570 guys have called themselves head coaches and Marty can't even come up for a vote to get in the hall of Fame. And people say, well, you know, he didn't play well in the playoffs. He didn't win a Super Bowl. Well, George Allen didn't win a Super Bowl. You know, he's in the hall of Fame. He went to one super bowl and you know, and that was it. He got in the hall of Fame. He had a 70% winning percentage. But Marty won 200 games. That's so remarkable. Dan Reaves won 200 games. When you count his playoff wins, he can't. And he was a really a good player. He can't get in the hall of fame. So I don't think there's a coaching criteria that really allows the coaches to get their due process. And I was hoping this book would help Marty to get some awareness on why 200 wins is a significant contribution. And, you know, people have the audacity to want to try to put Art Modell in the hall of Fame. The former Brown zoner who I worked for and loved and was a wonderful man, even though he moved the team from Cleveland to Baltimore. But you can't get into the hall of Fame when you fired three of the winningest coaches in the history of the game. He fired Paul Brown, he fired Bill Belichick, and he fired Marty Schottenheimer. Well, well said.

[Ty Butler]

Is there a part of the game as you've covered it, as you watch it over the course of 35 plus years that you feel like has changed the most?

[Don Hahn]

Well, obviously the past protection rules have changed. I mean, there's a lot of guys that, you know, play. Dick Night Train Lane. I mean, he. Could he have played today? Probably not. I mean, Ronnie lot this, his. The way he tackled in a way, the physicality that he played with probably wouldn't have. I think there's a lot of that that I see in the league. You know, the way the league has changed for safety purposes and, and all that, which is a good thing. And I'm not complaining about that. But I think ultimately, you know, the, the, some of the rules, the past protection. You know what people don't realize? Bart Starr in the Ice bowl, he got sacked nine times in that game, and Lombardi went for it on third down with the quarterback sneak. If he didn't make it on third down, the clock would have ran out, so his quarterback would have been sacked nine times. He went for it on third down in a championship game. What do you think talk radio would have done to Lombardi if those two things if he wouldn't have won that game?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right, Exactly. It's. Let me, let me. Speaking of things like that, by the way, it just crossed my mind because you, when you brought up the idea of the sneak, because this has obviously been a regular conversation on sports talk radio, is the Tush push the one thing that's lost in that conversation, Michael, is it's become a thing that's very specific to the Eagles, obviously, and I understand that they do it more and better than everyone, but fundamentally it was about changing the rule about aiding a runner from behind. Where do you, where do you fall on this issue? And I just still don't quite Understand why that rule was changed in the first place.

[Don Hahn]

I. I didn't know it was changed. I thought you couldn't aid the runner from behind. I didn't understand it. That's when I first saw the tush push. I said, isn't that illegal? They're aiding the runner from behind. I didn't know how they changed it. Look, they do it really well. And one of the. See, I think what the people missed over the landscape of the tush push is the power of short yardage. We're so caught up in big plays. We're so caught up in and, you know, explosive throws to the receivers and all that. When you go study playoff games that are won and loss, playoff games come down to really, who can convert third and short, who can score from the one yard line, who can get the ball in the end zone inside the one. That's where playoff games are won and lost. And the Eagles have taught a master class of that over the last three years.

[Ty Butler]

Talking to Michael Lombardi here. All right, so let's. Let's get to the UNC part of this. What is the biggest challenge for you right now? You try to put your imprint on this program.

[Don Hahn]

Well, I think obviously, knowing the rules, understanding the rules, that's a challenge because, you know, I've only worked in pro football, so I have a lot of tremendous people that help me and work with me in this area. The challenge is just. Is really that it's the same job as it was in the NFL. It really comes down to evaluating, putting a system in place and being able to develop a system from within. You know, we're about culture here. We're about setting a standard of excellence, much like Coach Walsh talked about, much like Bill Belichick has always done. So that's kind of where we are in this. And I think ultimately, you know, I think ultimately that's what we. Our challenge is to continue to do it. Now we've changed the roster. We have 70 new players on the team. And I think ultimately it's. It's going to be. And the players have adapted. They like it. I think we have a certain kind of we, we. You know, it's funny. Everybody talks about college football. You recruit who you recruit, and, well, we're recruiting, we're recruiting players, but we're also. Players need to recruit us, too, because we only want smart, smart, tough and dependable. If you don't fit the criteria to come to play for us, we really aren't interested in bringing you in here.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How. How excited is Is Bill Belichick about this opportunity, like, for us on the outside as a sports fan, it seems so random. Like, if you were to tell me that in the year 2025, Bill Belichick was about to be the head coach at unc, I just. I wouldn't even understand what you were talking about. And at the same time, knowing the kind of competitor that he is, it also, in some ways, is not surprising because it seems that he always wants to show people what he's capable of. How excited is he for that challenge? And how different will his style have to be with college players or because of everything that's changed? Is it not even like coaching amateur players anymore?

[Don Hahn]

It's not like coaching amateur players anymore. His style is the same. I mean, he's teaching them the game of football and the game of life. You know, we talk about being a professional, right? That's one of our mantras. You know, amateurs are reactive. Professionals are proactive. Amateurs are kind of. Are kind of in. Professionals are all in. Amateurs focus on the outcome. Professionals focus on. On process. I mean, that's what we're selling. We're selling that here. And so it's easy for them, I think. Look, in the NFL the way it is now, and. And it deserves to be this way because the owners have spent a lot of money to buy their team. But there's a lot of layers to the NFL. There's as. As. As. As they said in the Godfather, there's a lot of buffers in the NFL. You got to go through a lot of buffers to get anything done. You know, who's running the cap, who's the son of the owner. You know, the owner has somebody that he listens to. You know, you can't do this because they don't want to do that. You need to hire this person because it'll make us look good PR wives. I mean, it's. You can't really run your program. You have to listen to other things and do what other people want you to do. And I think Bill got a chance to come to North North Carolina and run his program without any interference. We work together every. Every day during the regular season, last year and in. In. In NFL films, and we would go over every potential opening in the NFL. What do you think about this job? What do you think about that job? Well, you know, as Bill Walsh told me in 1984, you're really only about eight teams that are competing for a title. The other ones are stuck in kind of a place where they can't really get out of their way. And I think that's even more true today.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Go ahead, Ty.

[Ty Butler]

How would you just talk about the NFL now? One of the biggest stories is this contract situation with Micah Parsons and the Dallas Cowboys. How would you handle that if you were the GM of the Cowboys?

[Don Hahn]

Well, I mean, look, it's the season of. Look, it's a. It's really an old, old script that they're using. You know, it worked back when George Young was the general manager of the Giants. Go to the media, complain about your contract and see if the media will cause enough uproar that you can get a raise. Emmett Smith did it when he held out in Dallas, missed two games, and Jerry had to sign him. But that's an old. That's an old game plan. This is. I could have predicted that this was going to happen, you know, back in December, after the season was over. You could predict Terry McLaurin is going to complain. I want to be traded. Every player can't get what he wants, wants to be traded. It's kind of ridiculous because we all share the same information. Everybody knows what the great receivers make. Everybody knows who's in the top five. The debate, Washington 7 with McLaurin is where they see him and where he sees himself. Is he better than Jamar Chase? He probably wants more money than Chase. Should he get paid that? You know, is he better than T. Higgins? Where does he fit in? That's the question.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But what do you do?

[Don Hahn]

We want to trade him, but what do you do? You do it exactly what Winston Churchill said when he got elected prime minister. They asked him how come it took so long for you to become the prime minister when you were talking about this all through the 30s. And he said, fear does the work of reason. They'll get these players signed because they're fearful they're going to lose a game. Check. No players losing a game. Check. Nice guys are going to lose a game. Check. Standing on the sideline. They're going to come in. As George Young eloquently always said, football players play football.

[Ty Butler]

Chris Jones. Chris Jones did a couple years ago for the Chiefs.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And of course, Levy on Bell famously kind of threw everything away playing that.

[Don Hahn]

Game, 13 million away. But Chris Jones came. He didn't miss a game. Check. He got. He didn't go to camp. Chris Jones didn't go to camp. So he was getting fined and he showed up to come back to camp. And then they gave him the ability to earn his fines back. They had to find him. He didn't have a hold in. He had a hold out.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think what's fascinating about the Commander situation is that, you know, in full transparency, as the audience knows, I'm a Commander's fan. Terry McLaurin is not Jamar Chase, but he is very valuable in Washington specifically, and he's very important to the growth of this quarterback. That has changed the entire situation in Washington. Can Adam Peters just not let that affect him like they, that has to be weighing on them that they know how much McLaurin affects the development of the quarterback.

[Don Hahn]

Well, I mean, look, there's certainly going to be built in costs for that, but I think you have to put them in the right spot. Like, where do you put them in terms of the player structure of, of all the receivers who have had new contracts? I mean, they're sitting there looking at all the contracts. You know, he's looking at every contract and he's got grades on every one of those players, you know, so I think he knows exactly where he has them rated. It's no different than I had the same job I have here. Look, I have a kid that I graded a certain grade and he wants a half a million dollars to come to school here, you know, and I have embraced it at a number that he should be $100,000. Well, I'm not going to give him the half a million. He can go to some other school to get that. It all comes down to how you judge the player. And players have always are going to have a different opinion of their, of their talent. But I think at the end of the day, you know, he's trying to get as much money as he possibly can to, to make sure that he, he gets the best contract. And Washington wants to, I mean, it's like this, he, this is why it's so 1980ish. Washington's not trying not to pay him. Washington's not trying not to pay him. But is he, you know, is he John, Is he, is he Justin Jefferson at 35 million a year? Or is he Garrett Wilson who just got 32. Five? I mean, where is he? DK Metcalf just made 32. Nine. So where is the number? Is he AJ Brown at 32? I mean, you're, you, you're, you're a commander's fan. You know, where would you rank him? You know, is he better than tyree kill at 30 million a year? He's not better than Tyree Kill, I can tell you that. Tyree kills better than all these guys. I've Talked about. But he's, you know, he's got other issues you got to deal with.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

Pay him as much as Garrett Wilson.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I would pay him. I would pay him. To me, he's older, obviously, than Garrett Wilson, but I think Terry McLaurin is just one tick better than Garrett Wilson. That's where I would put it.

[Don Hahn]

All right, so. All right, so he's 32. Say you call it 32. Six per year. Average. Average. Average per year. Pay him 32. You know, Garrett Wilson got 130 contract. He got 90 total guarantee. You know, so there it is. That's that. But the problem is he wants to get. Probably he wants to get above Jefferson. And so there lies the difference.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's all.

[Don Hahn]

It's really not a complicated issue. And so you run to the media and say, I want to be traded. Okay, that's great. You want to be traded. So what team's going to pay you 38 million and then trade two number one picks to Washington? Who's doing that?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Exactly. And thus. And thus we still sit here without this changing. As you can tell, this man, you're sitting there because.

[Don Hahn]

Because he chooses. He sees no reason to cave yet. Remember, fear does the work of reason. There's no reason for him to cave yet. He's not fearful. He's not losing anything. He's sitting in. See, this whole system was set up so that the players didn't hold out, and clubs have allowed the players to hold in. It's the club's fault.

[Peter Rosenberg]

By the way, as you can tell, this man knows quite a bit about football. And you can learn even more with his new book, Football Done Right. Setting the Record Straight on the coaches, players and history of the NFL. Michael Lombardi, the new book. Thank you so much for making time, man. We really enjoyed it.

[Don Hahn]

Appreciate you. Bye bye.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. I see what you did.

[Ty Butler]

I love you. He's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's on it, T. You don't know.

[Ty Butler]

What he did can knock the hustle.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, but you know why? The remix.

[Ty Butler]

Rockefeller, y' all put me on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The reason he played the remix is because this is the quote. The only thing worse than getting old is not getting old.

[Ty Butler]

Oh, yeah, there we go. But he played it a couple segments later.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, but see, it's always something, though.

[Ty Butler]

But I thought I. I thought it was off of your Terry McLaurin which you were very passionate about during that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Cannot hustle.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah. I thought it was the. Can't knock the hustle with, you know, Terry want his money and all that. But he did it for that. That. That quote that you gave earlier. I got you Jacob.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Jacob. Jacob's dude. If right now for the culture, I do my homework.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Now, now. It was an interesting conversation there at the end with Lombardi about what will happen with. With. With Terry. And I do think ultimately he probably will not want to miss game checks. And you're a player in your prime with a great quarterback on a team that compete, that. That will compete. I don't know what other options there are for him out there. I just wonder how big the gap is between the Commander's offer and what Terry wants. He is in a weird place, right. Because, like Ty, you're an outsider. You would agree. He's not Justin Jefferson. No, he's not Jamar.

[Ty Butler]

Jamar Chase.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, he's not Jamar Chase. He. But he is, in my opinion, better and more proven and more valuable to this team than, say, a Garrett Wilson.

[Ty Butler]

I don't know that he's better. More proven. Yes. And I can't say he's more valuable because look at what Garrett Wilson has played with.

[Don Hahn]

Right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

But with or without Garrett Wilson this year, what are the jets doing?

[Ty Butler]

But the jets also don't have a Jaden Daniels.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Correct. But that's.

[Ty Butler]

That's part of it.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, but why.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's part. But that's the window. The reason I think it's fair is, is because it's to the point that the window for the Commanders is now you have your guy on a rookie contract. This is when you. You said this yesterday. This is when you can pay the piece because without him, Anthony pulled up the Commander's depth chart. Receiver. If they don't have Terry McLaurin, considering you have no idea if Debo Samuel is still going to be Debo Samuel, it quickly drops off a cliff right after that. I know you can't pay players for their past.

[Ty Butler]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I do think sometimes you have to have some level of appreciation for what they've done and what you then, of course, think they will do.

[Ty Butler]

This. This definitely has to get done. Especially coming off of what you accomplished last year. I just try to go through my head like the. Is he a top five receiver? I don't know if he's a top five receiver, but he's certainly top ten. Because, like, you rattle off like Jamar, Justin Jefferson, Amon, Rod, I would say those are the three best receivers in football. Then you get into like CD Tyreek and AJ but he's like in that conversation of the next tier guys, right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think so. So that's what I think.

[Ty Butler]

So that is someone you pay, especially when your window has become open. Now that you see what you have in your rookie quarterback, I think it'll get done. I understand why you have some anxiety. It'll get done.

[Don Hahn]

Man.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A quick. It's funny though, a quick AI overview.

[Ty Butler]

Does not include him of top five receivers.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Top 10.

[Ty Butler]

He's top 10.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They have Tyreek, CD A.J. brown, Jefferson, Chase St. Brown, neighbors Nico Collins, Mike Evans. Still. Mike Evans. Still.

[Don Hahn]

Wow.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And Garrett Wilson.

[Ty Butler]

Man, I think he's top 10.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think so, too. And I'm putting him over current Devonte Adams. I'm taking him over current Devonte Adams. I'm taking him over Puka Nakua. I'm taking him over dk, who's got a ton of money, too.

[Ty Butler]

We haven't gotten into this yet and maybe we can do a little bit more tomorrow because we have ENN coming up.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Damn right we do.

[Ty Butler]

Got the Giants winning week one against your commanders. Well. And it's not even a hot take.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We should get into this tomorrow because obviously my. My outlook on them will feel vastly different if they lost their number one weapon for Jaden Daniels. That's how big a deal I think the Terry thing is.

[Ty Butler]

But now with him last year, they. They should have lost to the Giants.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, that was.

[Don Hahn]

They.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They were not yet the commanders, though. That was. That was before it happened. They. And by the way, though, it was funny, the only thing the commanders could not do that game is get in the end zone. As you remember.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah, they were kicking few and the Giants didn't have a kicker and the.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Giants didn't have a kicker. But the commanders at that point, for some reason didn't know how to score touchdowns. But you guys could not get their offense off the field. They kept moving.

[Ty Butler]

Giants fans.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, sorry. Sorry.

[Don Hahn]

They.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Guys, it was not the Jets.

[Ty Butler]

Pusick Skies.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What? Where is the game?

[Ty Butler]

In Washington, I believe. Right, Anthony? That's in Washington.

[Peter Rosenberg]

If. If that's in Washington and Terry's playing, I'm going to take that bet with you. And I look forward to it.

[Ty Butler]

Yeah. In Washington September 7th. And then we got to. We got to come up with a wager.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Ty Butler]

Giants first home game is week three against the Chiefs. Yeah. Sunday night. Sunday night.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Like you dream about. And when I say dream, I mean complete and total nightmare. Real quick, guys. Let me throw this at you real quick. Football Fans, enter the ESPN New York Survivor Pool for a chance to win $5,000. Make your pick each week of the football season and find out how you stack up against your friends and favorite ESPN hosts. But be careful. One wrong pick and you'll be eliminated. The last one standing will take home the title of the second annual ESPN New York Survivor Pool Champion and $5,000. Enter now on the ESPN New York app powered by Splash Sports.com thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast. I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.