Hour 3: Hurts v Herbert

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg – Hour 3: Hurts v Herbert

Episode Information:

• Title: Hour 3: Hurts v Herbert
• Hosts: Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
• Release Date: July 14, 2025
• Description: ESPN New York and New Jersey's Don La Greca, sportswriter Alan Hahn, and Hip Hop and WWE personality Peter Rosenberg delve into sports discussions, focusing on New York teams and beyond.

---

1. Introduction and Garrett Wilson’s Contract Extension

Timestamp: [00:00 - 01:13]

The episode kicks off with promotional segments for Venmo and Telemardu Irish Whiskey, which are briefly acknowledged before transitioning into the main topics.

• Don Hahn introduces a significant update: "Congratulations to Garrett Wilson gets the contract extension. Is Sauce going to be next?"

• Peter Rosenberg delves into the details of Wilson's extension:

  • [01:11] Rosenberg: "So $90 million, like Anthony said, is the fourth. It's the guarantee. It's the fourth largest guarantee for a wide receiver. That's not nothing."

They discuss the implications of Wilson's extension, highlighting his importance to the team and his desire to stay with a winning organization.

---

2. Analysis of Garrett Wilson’s Role and Team Leadership

Timestamp: [01:13 - 07:19]

• Peter Rosenberg emphasizes Wilson's leadership and the team's shift towards empowering young players:

  • [02:40] Rosenberg: "Wilson's going to feel more like a leader and less like a kid who gets patted on the head and told, 'This is the route you run now.'"

• Don Hahn discusses the broader team strategy, focusing on ensuring quarterbacks have reliable weapons:

  • [03:23] Hahn: "The best way to make your quarterback work is to make sure he has a weapon."

• Ira (Caller) shares a critical perspective on Wilson:

  • [05:16] Ira: "He's gotta prove it to me this year before I'm making him a top five cornerback with salary. I'm not doing it. I think he's overrated."

Insights:

• The conversation highlights the balance between rewarding talent and ensuring performance consistency.
• The importance of leadership and team dynamics in nurturing young stars like Wilson is underscored.

---

3. Quarterback Showdown: Jalen Hurts vs. Justin Herbert

Timestamp: [07:19 - 18:25]

The main discussion revolves around comparing quarterbacks Jalen Hurts and Justin Herbert, focusing on their performances, potential, and impact on their respective teams.

• Peter Rosenberg questions Hurts' elite status:

  • [08:08] Rosenberg: "I don't think he's elite... I think the team covers a lot of his holes."

• Don Hahn counters by emphasizing Hurts' leadership and winning mentality:

  • [10:27] Hahn: "Hertz is a winner. And I think that's what the game is supposed to be about. You're winning it."

• Peter Rosenberg argues that despite Hurts' leadership, Herbert's statistical performance positions him higher:

  • [12:38] Rosenberg: "We spend so much time pointing out statistics... Jalen Hurts should be ranked higher than him."

• Ira introduces further skepticism about Hurts' abilities:

  • [15:22] Ira: "He's not the guy that's going to win the game with his arm."

Notable Quotes:

• Rosenberg: "Any excuses from last year have got to go away." [07:19]
• Hahn: "The best way to make your quarterback work is to make sure he has a weapon." [03:23]

Insights:

• The debate centers on the value of statistical performance versus intangible leadership qualities.
• Hosts acknowledge both quarterbacks' strengths but differ on how these translate to elite status and team success.

---

4. Caller Perspectives and Team Dynamics

Timestamp: [18:25 - 34:01]

Multiple callers join the conversation, offering varied opinions on the quarterbacks and team strategies.

• Ira maintains a critical stance on Hurts:

  • [21:13] Ira: "He looks horrible in big games. Jalen Hurts can't perform when it matters the most."

• Peter Rosenberg defends Hurts' role within the Eagles' system:

  • [22:14] Rosenberg: "The genius of what they did in Philly was not only recognize that this was a way more popular guy in the locker room."

• Sean (Caller) emphasizes the importance of team context in evaluating quarterbacks:

  • [46:02] Sean: "You can't equate wins and losses to quarterbacks. It's a team game."

Notable Quotes:

• Ira: "He's a fullback who knows how to throw the ball 10 yards." [15:40]
• Sean: "If you're looking at the best quarterback at that position, you have to." [46:58]

Insights:

• Callers reflect broader fan sentiments, balancing statistical analysis with personal biases.
• The discussion highlights how team compositions and systems significantly impact quarterback performances.

---

5. Impact of Team Structure and Coaching

Timestamp: [34:01 - 49:57]

The hosts and callers explore how team structures, coaching decisions, and supporting players influence the effectiveness of quarterbacks.

• Don Hahn emphasizes the importance of building a team around the quarterback's strengths:

  • [43:57] Hahn: "If I put him on the Dallas, telling me if I put Justin Herbert on the Dallas Cowboys, they wouldn't win."

• Peter Rosenberg points out the limitations of a quarterback without proper support:

  • [49:27] Rosenberg: "A quarterback can't possibly be a passenger. The ball's in your hand all the time."

• Ira discusses the relational dynamics between quarterbacks and coaches:

  • [34:16] Ira: "If I put Jalen Hurts on the Chargers, they would listen."

Notable Quotes:

• Hahn: "The best way to make your quarterback work is to make sure he has a weapon." [03:23]
• Rosenberg: "You just took all the weapons away." [29:18]

Insights:

• The conversation underscores that a quarterback's success is intertwined with team strategy, coaching, and the surrounding talent.
• Effective collaboration between quarterbacks and their support systems is crucial for maximizing performance.

---

6. Concluding Thoughts and Final Caller Inputs

Timestamp: [49:57 - 50:35]

As the episode nears its end, the hosts wrap up the quarterback debate with final insights and light-hearted exchanges.

• Don Hahn reiterates the importance of both statistical prowess and winning mentality:

  • [49:27] Hahn: "War is such a big stat now, because it's for position."

• Peter Rosenberg emphasizes the irreplaceable role of the quarterback in critical game moments:

  • [49:57] Rosenberg: "You do it because there's always going to be a moment of play that has to be executed to the highest level."

• Callers like Bobby and Sean add their final opinions, reinforcing the complexities of evaluating quarterback performance solely based on stats or wins.

Insights:

• The debate concludes without a definitive winner, reflecting the multifaceted nature of evaluating quarterback excellence.
• The hosts acknowledge the subjective elements of sports analysis, balancing empirical data with personal and team-based narratives.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Garrett Wilson’s Contract: The extension signifies the team’s commitment to leadership and future performance, though opinions on his current performance and potential vary among hosts and callers.

• Quarterback Rankings Debate: A central theme is the comparison between Jalen Hurts and Justin Herbert, weighing statistical achievements against leadership and winning capabilities. The discussion highlights differing opinions on what constitutes an elite quarterback.

• Team Dynamics: Successful quarterback performance is heavily influenced by team structure, coaching strategies, and supporting players. The interplay between individual talent and team cohesion is crucial.

• Fan and Caller Perspectives: Diverse opinions from callers reflect the broad spectrum of fan sentiments, demonstrating the subjective nature of sports evaluations.

Notable Quotes:

• [03:23] Don Hahn: "The best way to make your quarterback work is to make sure he has a weapon."
• [07:19] Peter Rosenberg: "Any excuses from last year have got to go away."
• [29:18] Peter Rosenberg: "You just took all the weapons away."

---

This episode provides an in-depth exploration of quarterback performance metrics, team-building strategies, and the subjective elements that influence sports rankings. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities involved in evaluating and supporting key players within a team context.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

With the Venmo Debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank in a pursuant to license by Mastercard International, Inc. The card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Don Hahn]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Don Hahn]

Game time is brought to you by Telemardu Irish Whiskey. Because when it's game time, it's Tully Time. It's Tully Time. Coverage of the Home Run Derby begins right here on 8:80 at 8:00'. Clock. Tullimore Dew, the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast matured Irish Whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore Dew or try the new Tullamore Dew. Honey, during tonight's action, glasses up to enjoying Tullamore Dew responsibly. So congratulations to Garrett Wilson gets the contract extension. Is Sauce going to be next? We were discussing the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL and of course we've got all the baseball to discuss as well. First half of the season concludes. What does that all mean?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You want some of the details on the Garrett Wilson?

[Don Hahn]

Yes, I want it all.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So 90 million, like Anthony said, is the fourth. It's the guarantee. It's the fourth largest guarantee for a wide receiver. That's not nothing. Right? $13.75 million signing bonus with a $20 million option bonus in year two and a $10 million option bonus in year three. Okay, so they definitely made him a priority. That says a lot because I'm telling you, last season there was a point there where it's, he might not have wanted to come back, but think about it. He might have wanted to say, you know what? I'm not signing anything. I don't think this is a winning organization. I need to get out of here. Garrett Wilson's not, not here to be a, a Jet and a. Another one of these guys. Yeah, I played for the jets for seven years, never made the playoffs. Like he's not doing that. No, he wanted to win. The losing was getting to him. Last year was making him crazy because he's hyper competitive. And so it took a lot this, this off season of moving on from Rogers, getting an offense that he could really sink his teeth into, a quarterback he obviously loves and respects and he worked with and he's had success with. He's close with Garrett. Wilson's going to feel more like a leader and less like a kid who gets patted on the head and told, this is the route you run now shut your mouth and do what you're told. I think that kind of ownership is important. Him, Breece and and Sauce are three guys that it seems like feel like they're taking ownership now of the franchise, that they as younger players were sort of told to stay quiet and let guys like C.J. mosley and then Aaron Rodgers comes in, let them do they now want to take it from here. I'm curious to see with Aaron Glenn if there's going to be a shift in personality with this team. But all three of these guys come out of the gate as young players showing a lot of potential. But now one's already been paid. Sauce should get paid. Breece is find himself in a running back room that's got three other running backs and they're all really talented. So it's now put up time for these guys.

[Don Hahn]

Well, you want to make Justin Fields work. I mean, Justin Fields is almost like a draft pick adjacent in the sense that he's still a young kid that can be molded in the image that you want him to be molded into. It's a two year deal. So you didn't make a ton of sacrifice financially, but you want it to work. And the best way to make your quarterback work is to make sure he has a weapon. I mean, that's kind of why the Giants selected Neighbors, right? Is we want either Daniel Jones or our next quarterback to have a weapon to throw the football to. And Garrett Wilson was a draft pick. Granted, that regime is gone, but he's yours. He's under control. He wants to be here now that Rodgers is gone. I would think part of the reason you let Rogers go is because you wanted Wilson to stay. That might not have worked out. If you brought Rogers back, maybe Wilson is even more apt to want to split, look like there was something going on there.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

Now you bring in one of his guys. It makes perfect sense. The Sauce thing though is interesting because in a cap sport, not having that great of a season compared to his first couple of years, it's a lot to invest in a corner. That's what Ira and Staten Island's concerned about. You're on espn, New York, what's up?

[Ira]

I hey, Don, what's happening? By the way, congratulations. I didn't get talk to you. I'm sure. You're gonna knock it out with the.

[Don Hahn]

Devil, so I appreciate that.

[Ira]

Long time. I remember the champion days when you were out at the Marriott. So I'm glad to see it. Yeah. You know the Garrett Wilson thing, that was a no brainer. Gardner. You know, I know a lot of people are gonna disagree with me, but he's gotta. He's gotta prove it to me this year before I'm making him like a top five cornerback with salary. I'm not doing it. I'm sure the jets probably feel differently, but I think he's overrated. I think he's a really, really good corner. I don't think he's a top three four corner. I just don't. I hope he proves me wrong.

[Don Hahn]

I'm with you. I want to see more too. And in a sport until you have to. Why pay somebody until you absolutely have to? The Wilson became important because again you want to justify Justin Fields. But hey, look who your head coach is now. If there's anybody that can evaluate talent in that position, it's him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I can teach him, so that'll go a long way.

[Don Hahn]

So I have no problem. Ira, let's see what you do this year. Let's see if you can bounce back from last year. We got a defensive minded head coach who knows the position. If we see the big step forward, I'll give you the contract. If not, hey, see you. I have no problem. I. With your assessment of that position in.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That player, the corner feels like one that you can kind of recycle, you know, I. Paying a corner top dollar is something I think you only do when you feel like you're that close to winning big. Then you might do it. I don't know if you do it until you get there. Right.

[Don Hahn]

Everything. Guys still there?

[Ira]

I'm sorry. Yeah, no, definitely. I'm not paying him right right now, just not. And you know, right away. And listen, he came out, you know, people were comparing him to Revis right away. I think that was just completely just crazy. And not only that, Aaron Glenn is going to play press man coverage. Okay. God is a zone corner and I don't think he's that physical of a player. So I want to see how he's going to play press man coverage when he can't tackle well. So I got to meet like Don, you and I. And I think Alan agrees. I think we're all on the same page. Prove it to me, tell me I'm wrong and then you get to become.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh yeah, that's what this year is about Garrett got the contract. But there's still now, okay, you're here, you're locked in. We solved a lot of the issues. You know, you're much happier, clearly. And honestly, this is like your team now, right?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So that's something you solve that way. But he still has to prove it. He still has to live up to it. For Sauce. It's exactly, I think what Ira said. It's. You got to show out. Any of the excuses from last year has got to go away.

[Don Hahn]

And let's face it, this is not going to be a playoff year in all likelihood, you know, there's going to be some growing pains. Go out. Show me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, right.

[Don Hahn]

I mean, I don't have to pay you now, so if I don't have to pay yet. We'll wait and see and then we'll assess next summer and we'll take a look at it, what kind of season you had. And I don't see the reason again in the cap sport, take advantage of the time that you have. Wilson, Bit of a different story. I want to make sure my first year with Justin Fields, he's got weapons to throw the ball to. I want to make him feel comfortable. I want to justify that contract a little bit of a different situation. Let's go to David and Elizabeth. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, David?

[Ira]

What up, Hollywood hun? What up, Don? Yup. Excuse this motorcycle going past, gentlemen. We're going to talk baseball. But Don, this is what we're going to say about our meds. I love our first half. Stearns, you need to get an arm or a bat, but let's get straight into the jets, baby. All right, so this is what I want to say. I'm happy for Garrett Wilson. He deserves that extension. He earned it. Don. Ira, I apologize. Don't get mad at me. You too, Hollywood. Han, I think Sauce deserves that money. He earned it all pro two seasons in a row. Yes. His last season wasn't good. I will say this is a as a positive. He bulked up. Pause. So he should be able to tackle this season. And something tells me the personnel, the schemes, and Aaron Glenn is gonna, you know, try to tweak and fine tune Sauce so he could be that elite corner that we know he is. So, you know, I'm really excited for jets football this season. Damn. There's just one more thing I wanted to say about that top 10. I'm gonna be honest with you. Eagles quarterback hurts. I don't think he's elite I don't think he's elite as everybody says he is. I think the team covers a lot of his holes, and I don't think he's a dynamite quarterback, because if you took him off that team and he had to make passes and throw.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But he doesn't. But no, see, when I'm doing it.

[Ira]

All right, that's just my opinion.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let me push back.

[Ira]

I apologize.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, I'm gonna push back. There's a talk radio pushing back on what you said. Like, if. If you put him on another team, if you put him on the team, you would still play that way. The genius of what they did in Philly was not only recognize that this was a way more popular guy in the locker room. Again, Carson Wentz, now, you got hurt, but Wentz just wasn't that kind of guy. And the minute they put Hertz in the offensive line was different. Everybody was different. They felt a different. He had a leadership quality and a quiet confidence about him that a lot of the veteran players were drawn to. That's the reason why he won that job over. They had every reason. They just paid Wentz. They had every reason to believe in him or give him a million chances. But there was something different when Hertz got under center that they. It was not. It was tangible, even though it was not something you could quantify. So keeping that in mind, you then say, this is his. These are his skill sets. Here's how we'll take advantage of him to win. So you can't say, well, if I drop him in on. On the Lions, he wouldn't be the same. Of course he wouldn't. Of course he's not going to make those throws, because you wouldn't expect him to.

[Don Hahn]

Well, that's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So he's great for what he is if you know how to use him properly. I just think Daniels is probably a better quarterback, but he's played one year, and how many times have we seen a young quarterback come in and have a really good rookie season? And then it kind of falls off because the league gets to know you a little bit. Your team's not the same. C.J. stroud had a terrific rookie year, and then what? So these things do happen. Kyler Murray, another guy that came into the league, and he was fast as hell, and he was hard to keep, you know, control of. They were winning games. But then the more the league gets to know you, the more your weaknesses are exposed. So that's what I think Hertz is. How much more does this guy have approved himself? Don you are putting other quarterbacks ahead of him. But that's what the GMs were saying. I'd rather have this guy than Hertz. And the. And the Baker Mayfield that you talk about. A rags to riches story. A number one pick who looked like a bust, who has completely reclaimed his career to now be considered a top 10 quarterback. It's wild.

[Don Hahn]

I think people look at the gaudy stats and that's where they judge who's better. Quarterback. Now, completely different animal, but it's kind of like Eli Manning. And that's kind of where Eli Manning was probably ranked after he was winning his Super Bowls.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But see ever top 10.

[Don Hahn]

I'm sure he was, but. But he was also somebody that you could rattle off better quarterbacks than Eli Manning.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But you'd rather have.

[Don Hahn]

But Hertz is a winner.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

And I think that's what the game is supposed to be about. You're winning it. But there's a reason why you go out and you pay for Saquon Barkley. Because you realize my quarterback's probably not good enough to just go out there and win. Elite quarterbacks like Joe Burrow. Like a Joe Burrow who is just an amazing specimen at quarterback. But you look at the stats for Hertz. I mean, he's never thrown for 4,000 yards. He's never thrown for more than 23 touchdowns because he hasn't had to do it. Now, if he did, I'm sure he could throw for more, but he would probably throw a few more picks. He might not do as much damage on the ground. He's just not that kind of a quarterback.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But that's okay.

[Don Hahn]

But that's all right because, you know, wins and he's only 26 years old. He's going to get better, too.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I can't say it enough. We spend so much time pointing out statistics and pointing out all the numbers that prove your point about this guy's better. Because look at these numbers.

[Ira]

And.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I still say in the NFL with quarterback system is one of the first things. But the greatest compliment that you can give a quarterback. Accuracy. Right. Mental toughness. Great. What is like speed, feel in the pocket, you know, clutch ability. All those things are great compliments. The greatest one winner.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. And you know, say what you want about Baker Mayfield. It doesn't have the mind. Do you realize last year he threw for 4,500 yards and 41 touchdowns. Now he led the league in interceptions, but he puts up really gaudy stats. Depleted over 70% of his pass.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And he's a Leader, they love him there.

[Don Hahn]

No, they're a great story. And maybe he was a little bit of a late bloomer too. Remember, he was a pro Bowler of the year before, threw for 4,000 yards. So we look at him as boy, it didn't work out in Cleveland and you forget he was a Panther, he was a Ram, but you know, he's found a home in Tampa and he's a bit of a late bloomer, but he's a heck of a, heck of a player as far as Sauce is concerned. They picked up his fifth year option.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

So he's a free agent at the end of next year. So is Breeze, you know, so now let's. Let's show me. Yeah, but again, none of those Breezes attached to Fields too. As far as being a security blanket, giving Fields weapons.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Remember, they got two. They have drafting running backs.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So they.

[Don Hahn]

I know they've got a couple of.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Guys, at least a three headed monster right now.

[Don Hahn]

Sauce can go, I pick up that fifth year option. Go out and show me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

Now I'll. Maybe I'll regret it. Maybe you'll end up being the best corner in the league and I'll have to pay you more. But maybe you follow up last year with another subpar year. And you know what? I'm going to show you the door.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He knows kind of how it works. He got exposed last year and it was the first time he dealt with that kind of exposure because, you know, again, his first two seasons were exactly how you want it when you draft somebody as high as you do, as they did him. And that third year turned into, let's make him tackle, let's get him in the box, let's see if he can handle running back. And it was clear he couldn't. Now that means he had a whole off season of film and motivation to prove that he can. His tackle fundamentals were brutal.

[Don Hahn]

So why pay when I don't have to?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because I need to see it.

[Ira]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

So what do you just do? There's a charity, I'm just going to give it to you on spec. No, we like you. You're out there and play.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Karan in midtown. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, man?

[Ira]

Hey, Don. Nice. Thanks for picking up. Nice to talk to you guys. I hope you guys are having an excellent Monday. Han, I gotta disagree with your point earlier. You said Jalen Hurts is good for what he is in the system he's in. And that makes him good. Now you can be the best janitor in the world. But it means absolutely nothing if you're applying for a job as an accountant. And that's what I'm comparing the quarterback position to. Being an accountant, your job is to go in and make sure you are numerically dissecting defenses. And that's something Jalen Hurts cannot do.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wait a second. Did he win a Super Bowl?

[Ira]

He sure did, but he won it as a fullback who knows how to throw the ball 10 yards.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay, again, like, first of all, janitor and accountant. That's. That's two different. Like, he's playing the position and he's playing it at a level where his team wins. Now, is it the system? Of course it is.

[Ira]

But.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But like, again, Eli Manning was a lot of system, a lot of things. That he ran the ball and had great defense. That's literally what Jalen Hurts has, too.

[Ira]

But Eli Manning made two of the greatest throws in clutch I've ever seen.

[Don Hahn]

One to Mario Manningham.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And Jalen Hurts didn't make any throws. None. He never made one.

[Ira]

I'm not saying he made no throws. What I'm trying to say is when it comes down to it, he's not the guy that's going to win the game with his arm. If you take away Saquon from that team last year, that team is not sniffing the trial he did.

[Don Hahn]

But. But he's. He's. He's a winner at the extent that he did with the mvp, he's not going to burn you with the critical mistake. I'm with you. In a quarterback league, does the quarterback.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Have to always win with his arm or can he win with.

[Ira]

The essence of the list is we are talking about top ranked quarterbacks, and I don't feel like he fits the bill when we're talking about actual quarterbacks.

[Don Hahn]

I think you're right. I think when you. The more you think about it, and thank you for the phone call, he's ranked properly because the way we look at quarterbacks, and from a purely statistical standpoint, the way it looks, winning games on his own, Justin Herbert is a better quarterback than Jalen Hurts. But as far as being a winner, like, could I just plop Jalen Hurts onto the Philadelphia Eagles and automatically think they're going to win a Super Bowl, I don't know. Can. Can he handle that moment? Herbert?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You mean Herbert?

[Don Hahn]

Justin Herbert?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Well, can I. Can I drop him in Philadelphia and expect the exact same thing to happen?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You'd have to play a different.

[Don Hahn]

The world would be different because they probably wouldn't sign Saquon Barkley. Because we know that Herbert can make all the throws. He can throw for 4,500 yards. He can throw for 30 plus touchdowns. We know that. But you see around different.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Did you see what Harbaugh did though? When Harbaugh took over the Chargers, the first thing he did was take all the. Take a lot of responsibility and pressure off of Herbert.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So it's not, we're not living and.

[Don Hahn]

Dying with your arm, but I think there's a difference between an elite quarterback and just a winning quarterback. The Eagles are very happy to have Jalen Hurts. Of course they're not disappointed in it and they're fine. Now you can't plop Jalen Hurts onto the Chargers and expect the same results. It's a different world. They've built the team around them.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not trying to say that Jalen Hurts is a top five quarterback.

[Don Hahn]

No. But he deserves to be in elite quarterback conversation. He deserves to be ranked higher than Jalen Hurts. Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I just, I feel like that he should have more recognition than Daniels has played one year. And like I said on the surface Daniels is physically looks like a better fundamental quarterback. Right. But he's for one year and he hasn't.

[Don Hahn]

Well, yeah, we're going to see.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes. Okay. So they, they met in the championship. So he did have a great run.

[Don Hahn]

He's on better teams.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Huge upset in Detroit. But like that's when I'm looking at this. But again I have to look at the rankings not as rankings of fans. This is what general managers told Jeremy Fowler. These who, these are the guys we think are the goods.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And so, you know, I have to keep reminding myself that this is not a, this is not a who's, you know, who's earned it. I'm going back to the all Star game thing and all that stuff.

[Don Hahn]

He. The reason the Eagles can win a Super bowl with a non elite quarterback is make sure that you've got a world class running back and a great defense. The best, the best offensive line in football. You got an elite defense. That, that's the way to work it. But it's okay, it's okay that he's not elite, I think, but it's just weird as like super bowl mvp. He's been to two Super Bowls, like how can he be nine? But if you look at it, it's the right ranking and nobody in Philadelphia is going to complain about it because he's perfect for that system. And I do think that there is something to not wetting the bed. In the big situation that is. And he did it and he was able to get it done. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. To battle stress, most of us can't wave goodbye to work, but we can start small with a focus on wellness. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. As largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Unwind from work with Better Help our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com timeout. That's betterhelp.com timeout. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Sports are all about teamwork and so is insurance. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, State Farm is there to help you choose the right coverage for your home, car and more. Get a game plan that helps fit your life and talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. After zoomies at the dog park, it's time for Drive up at Target. In goes a big bag of kibble and one squeaky chicken toy for the good boy. Drive Up. That's ready when you are. Only in the Target app. Just tap Target.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Don Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

1-800-919-3776 Even though it's hot out, although it looks like it's about the storm, as I look out the window, it is. There is football in the air and, and this is one of the things I'm telling you about that it's not the, the walking dead of the All Star week where there's nothing to talk about because you start throwing out football and you start talking quarterbacks and rankings and contracts and people start to get heated up and I got, I got Eagle fan friends of mine texting me about, oh, Hertz this.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What are they saying? They're defending Hertz.

[Don Hahn]

Just my friend Phil says I should call in. This is crazy. I'm not sure what he means. 1-800-919376-MAN. Let's go, Phil. Show me something.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I should call in. If he was your friend, he already be calling it.

[Don Hahn]

Well, this is where you find out who the friends, who the acquaintances, who are the people that you know just because of who you know that kind of stuff. Now you find out. Show me something.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So Phil is a Philadelphia fan.

[Don Hahn]

He's a Yankee fan.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, boy.

[Don Hahn]

Devil fan.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Don Hahn]

Eagle fan.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Eagle. How did that happen?

[Don Hahn]

I'm telling you, use the excuse of being Central Jersey is one of that, like very strange areas where it's going to be a real challenge for Marco because I'm telling you, there's a good chance that Marco is going to become an Eagle fan because bodies his best friend and he's an Eagle guy. Right now the Eagles are coming off a Super Bowl. The Giants have been a walking embarrassment for the last couple of years. Marco may be swayed and it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt bad, but can I kill the kid?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, please don't.

[Don Hahn]

You know, let him be.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let him be my parents. Let me be.

[Don Hahn]

And if you want show me something. Giants win back this fan base in central Jersey. There was no problem in 86 and 90 and a couple of years ago. Come on. But now it's like, jeez, yeah, it's hard to compete.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hard to compete with this. They got a GM that. I mean, look how he turned over that defense. They got older and what did he do? He drafted all the replacements and he went to like the best defensive team in college football, Georgia. He just kept grabbing guys from Georgia. Amazing.

[Don Hahn]

You got a toolbox for a head coach, but everything else is great.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, but how's it working out?

[Don Hahn]

1-800-919-3776. David in Jersey. You're on ESPN. New York. What's up, David?

[Ira]

What's going guys?

[Peter Rosenberg]

David.

[Ira]

So if you're drafting a team, if you're drafting a quarterback today, knowing what Hertz is and what Herbert is, you. You have to, you have to tell me. Hertz is the guy. Well, I can't imagine if I'm starting.

[Don Hahn]

No, wait a minute. If I'm starting a team. But just look where they were drafted. Jalen Hurts was drafted in the second round, like so. It really depends on that. If you're drift, you're drafting a team from scratch. You're going to draft Justin Herbert before Jalen hurts if I again, knowing.

[Ira]

Knowing what they've done already. This is what they've done. This is their. You want to trade for a quarterback. And again, I understand all the, you know, you have to build a team around them and all that stuff. Hertz, you never. You never really know whether he could throw for 4,000 yards. He doesn't have to. I get it.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Ira]

I can't imagine a GM today saying, I would rather have Herbert, who has done nothing.

[Don Hahn]

When you say he's done nothing. He threw for 5,000 yards and 38 touchdowns in his second year in the league. And he has how many different coaches and how many different situations.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How'd that playoff game go?

[Don Hahn]

That didn't go well because again, they weren't coached. They had an awful coach. Again. We could talk. We were talking about Sirianni being. Look at the two assistants are going to the hall of Fame, dude. Wait a minute. They went out and blew up the assistant coaches in offense and defense. They kept the consistency with Sirianni. And I agree. I don't think he's a great coach. But you're talking about Brandon Staley as the head coach of his team. Now he's got a halfway decent coach and we're going to see how it works itself out. But if you're a general manager and I got a guy that can throw for 5,000 yards and nearly 40 touchdown passes, I'm going to draft that guy every day of the week. Compared to Jalen Hurts. They've had to go out and get the best offensive line, the best running back. They've got two to three great wide receivers, the best defense in football, and that's why they're able to win with Jalen Hurts. If I'm starting a team from scratch now, I don't know about my offensive line. I'm not sure this. But I got a guy that's got an arm that can throw for five GS and throw 40. Touchdown. They're going to draft him every single time. Every time.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And he's six, five. Like he. It's, it's. He is a prototype quarterback. Herbert. Right. He is a prototype. He's. If you built it in a factory, just like that's.

[Don Hahn]

And I can work with that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's there. It's all there.

[Don Hahn]

But I. But, but don't. Don't tell me he hasn't won a playoff game with. When he's had Staley as his head coach. Lots of dysfunction in Los Angeles with the Chargers.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Lots.

[Don Hahn]

But I can work with that. If I put him on the Dallas telling me if I put Justin Herbert on the Dallas Cowboys, they wouldn't win. If I put him on the Detroit Lions, he wouldn't win. Now we'll see. Maybe he chokes. I don't know. He hasn't had that many opportunities. Right. It was Herbert versus Trevor Lawrence. Trevor Lawrence is another guy you're going to draft every day of the week before Jalen hurts every day of the week.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, but, but I just, and I'm not disagreeing but I do want to point out that something that gets overlooked again is winner and Herbert has not. He was not good against the Texans in the playoffs last year. He was terrible.

[Don Hahn]

Right. But it was not good two years.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Like they blew a big lead like the, like that's the one thing you.

[Don Hahn]

Can'T let Eli versus Payton.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There are who are really talented but just you can blame the team all you want but there's just some guys that just can't figure out how to win. That's why Joe Burrow who plays on some God awful teams, they've had nothing but bad luck in Cincinnati. They can't get out of their own way and yet you watch him play and you go that guy is a dude. He dragged the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

[Don Hahn]

Well it was like, it's like Eli.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Mann he slayed the Mahomes dragon that nobody else in the AFC could beat him but borrow did. Like it's this stuff like that. No, of course you say that guy's.

[Don Hahn]

Got and that's why Burrow is better.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And Justin Herbert right now has shown you so many flashes of the physical talent but yet when he has faced the all right now it's a do or die win.

[Don Hahn]

Look what I had to do to build a championship caliber team to have Jalen hurts lead it. I granted he's a winner. I love the guy. Don't give me. I'm not knocking him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I know.

[Don Hahn]

I'm just saying from an elite quarterback standpoint the. Well it's the same conversation we have with Eli where maybe down four with two minutes to go in the super bowl. You might take Eli over Peyton. Why. But who you draft in ahead, who are you going to take first?

[Peter Rosenberg]

And that's, and that, that's why we're having two different discussions. It's, it's a, it's a GM that is looking. GMs are looking at quarterbacks. This is why the ranking was made. And it's like yeah, that guy's made up the stuff that you need in a quarterback versus if I had one game to win. I had one drive. Okay, who am I? What would be the top 10 of if I had one drive? Yeah, because I guarantee you, as old as he is, Aaron Rodgers probably still be.

[Don Hahn]

But I. But I also don't know if Jalen Hurts is in a four point game with two minutes to go and I need him and him alone to make it work that I don't have three great wide receivers. I don't have the best offensive line of football. I don't have the tush push.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How many quarterbacks can if they don't have any of that?

[Don Hahn]

But look what you've had to build. You just win with it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You just took all the weapons away. We know Aaron Rodgers can't even do that.

[Don Hahn]

I'm not taking all the weapons away. What I'm saying is, is look how elite they were. Like literally every position they got the best general manager in football. That finds guys all over the place. Like that's what it takes to get a guy that's not all arm. And they got him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They got him two elite wide receivers who know how to go up and get the ball.

[Don Hahn]

But if I'm start. But the question was if I start from the very beginning, I'm going to take Jalen Hurts, I'm going to take Justin Herbert over Jalen Hurts because I don't necessarily have to have the ball, best offensive line. I don't need to have the best wide receivers and the best running back because this guy can go out there and throw for 5,000 yards.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All I'm pushing back on. I'm not disagreeing with you when it comes to the measurables about Herbert versus Hertz. What I'm saying to you is you keep saying because I know he can do all this and he hasn't done it yet.

[Don Hahn]

Right, because he can't. But there's been obstacles. He just got himself a halfway decent coach. He had no coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He played in a playoff game last year with that halfway decent coach and he threw four interceptions, right?

[Don Hahn]

Well, no, he had a bad game for sure. All right, But I'm also. But I'm. But I'm also have a quarterback. It hurts where I'm not asked to do as much as Herbert because I'm just not as good as him. All right. There's a reason why he hasn't even. I had the stats. He's never thrown for 4,000 yards. Like literally, Herbert is thrown for 2,000 more yards in a season than in the best year. Hurts is.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's a prolific year.

[Don Hahn]

It's really. It's really unfair because it's almost like it's two different positions. You're asked to do different things.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So let's do this then.

[Don Hahn]

But if I'm building, and again, who would I rather have right now? You're right. I would rather have the guy that just won a Super bowl mvp. But the question is, when I'm drafting and if I'm drafting high enough to take an elite quarterback, I'm literally starting from scratch. And I'm telling you, all the quarterbacks that are ranked ahead of him are ranked ahead of them for a reason. This list was not Jeremy Fowler's, it's not mine. It's not yours. It's coaches and general managers that are paid to evaluate talent that had him ranked ninth. And it's not that off.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So Trevor Lawrence, generational talent, number one pick, right, has all the tools to be great. Hasn't been able to put it together in Jacksonville for various reasons. Some his. Some the franchise is disaster. If I told you right now, Trevor Lawrence or Jalen Hurts, what are you saying?

[Don Hahn]

I would take Jalen hurts, but I also need to know what my team looks like.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, you just said with Herbert, though, it just doesn't matter. I could put him in the.

[Don Hahn]

Trevor Lawrence has had more. But the problem with Trevor Lawrence is how many different coaches, how many different offensive. It's amazing how much he's got to go through that I think really did damage to him in Jacksonville. I agree.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I agree.

[Don Hahn]

But if I'm, you know, who's next?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Drake May watch the Patriots game.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, let's see.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That guy has got everything. He does. Room loves him. That's very important. Leadership qualities, great human being. Like, the more I learn about Drake May, the more I'm like, wow, this guy's special and he's got the talent. It's there. It all has to come together with the franchise that has him able to build a good roster. Since obviously the Belichick Brady days are over. They just struggling to get a A roster, but they're trying to build it now. But when I look at the next wave, like, who will we be talking about at some point? The same way we talk about Herbert, which is. He's so good. He just needs to be on a good team. I think Drake may might be that next guy we're talking about.

[Don Hahn]

Let's go to Kadeem in the car. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, buddy?

[Ira]

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Don, you Know I love you. And let me first say congrats. I haven't been able to talk to you guys in a while. Congrats on the new. Couldn't happen to, you know, a more deserving individual. So I just want to make sure I gave you your flash for that Cosine. Yes, sir. Well, so, I mean, listen, now I got to get on you because, I mean, as the resident Eagles fan here in New York, Han, I see what you're doing. Because, Don, you're giving him his flowers, but you're putting caveats on it, which I don't appreciate. How many offensive or coordinators have jalen hurts had? 4. 5.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because they keep getting jobs, right?

[Don Hahn]

Real good ones. Again, I don't know how it's disrespectful. Again, executives around the NFL ranked Herbert higher than Hertz.

[Ira]

Executives around the NFL had Shador Sanders going the fifth round, and we didn't agree with that either.

[Don Hahn]

Wasn't executives. It was every single executive, including the team that drafted them. So you can't use that as a comparison. But why you? Why are you getting upset? Your team is the. You have the best general manager. You've got the best offensive and defensive coordinators. I'm not in love with your head coach, and I don't think you are either.

[Ira]

All right.

[Don Hahn]

But again, if I. If I. So let me ask you this. This is the. This is the $64,000 question. If I put Jalen Hurts on the Chargers right now, would they do any better?

[Ira]

Yes.

[Don Hahn]

Why?

[Ira]

Absolutely. Because they were just like they did with Cam Newton with the Panthers back in when he got drafted. Not saying that Jalen Hurts was Cam Newton coming out of college, but if you have a quarterback like Jalen Hurts. Yes. Well, I agree with you that you need a specific kind of offense in order to make it work and build around him. In a certain sense, yes. But if you get him, not necessarily AJ Brown, devontae Smith, Saquon Barkley, if you get him recording pieces and competent individuals and competent teams, which the Chargers.

[Don Hahn]

Don'T have, but yet was able to take them to the playoffs. Do you realize that Jalen hurts threw for 30? Well, I mean, I keep saying Jalen Hurts. Justin Herbert didn't have that great of a season 23 touchdown pass. He threw three interceptions. Now, granted, he threw more interceptions in the playoff game than he did the entire regular season, but he's just a bet. But it does. But who's the better winner? Certainly, it Hurts. Listen, I went through the same thing as a Giant fan all right. Eli Manning was never the greatest quarterback of the regular season, but, boy, that guy knew how to win. But I couldn't sit there and argue that there were quarterbacks that were better than him. Tony Romo. Tony Romo, who couldn't win. Tic tac toe was a better quarterback than Eli Manning. If you look at it statistically, he was a better quarterback, but he couldn't win the big game. And I can live with that because I didn't care because he won Super Bowls. I don't know why you care that much. The better quarterback at Justin Herbert, but you got the super bowl ring. Stop it. Stop hanging on the rim.

[Ira]

I can't wait to call you again. Great talking to you guys.

[Don Hahn]

I love. I love this conversation because we're. We're. We're. We're saying the same stuff.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You do. You. Did you ever. In your fandom. Because it's hard now that we're in the business, and we. We look at it differently because we know too much. But when you were younger, did you ever, in your fandom root for a player that you knew everywhere around? Like, no one respected him, not at least not properly. And it bothered you because you're like, yeah, he gets his flowers. But for me, it was Patrick Ewing. It used to piss me off that, like, I thought Patrick Ewing was a great physical dominance, that he was great for New York, he was a winner, all this stuff. And anytime I talk to my friends, they're like, he's not that good. He's not better than. It would be like Olajuwon. It was talk about the rings. And I would say, wait a second. No, no. This is back in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s. This isn't past. This is early in his career. And they would always find somebody else was better and he's not as good as them. And I'd always say, like, how come you don't respect. Well, he's an all Star. What more do you want? Like, no, it's just he's not as good as these guys. And it used to drive me crazy. That's just how fans get. It's like, you should respect my guy because you don't see it like I do.

[Don Hahn]

You know what's so interesting is fans realize. But who's saying, I don't respect the guy? He's the top 10 best quarterbacks in the NFL. He's an NFL MVP.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But you were finding reasons to. That other guys were better.

[Don Hahn]

No, that happened. I'm explaining. I know this is why the NFL executives ranked him ahead. And that when you think of it, it's not really that disrespectful that he's ranked ninth. Well, think of it, because when you look at the tools of the quarterback.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But here's the point. He's ninth, Right. There's only three more names on the list. There's a guy who finished 10th, and then there's the two honorable mentions that got a lot of votes, but not enough to be top 10. One of them is Baker Mayfield.

[Don Hahn]

No, Baker Mayfield threw for 4,500. He threw for 41 touchdown passes, but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It'S still Baker Mayfield.

[Don Hahn]

All right, so who's a better winner? But that's not the conversation.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And then the other two.

[Don Hahn]

This is Judge and Jeter. This is Judge and Jeter.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Why is this Judge and Jeter?

[Don Hahn]

Because there's no question that Judge is better than Jeter. But all the fans will call all the four championships and in five years, they talk about the rings and the intangibles. But who's the better quarterback? I mean, who's the better Yankee? It's Judge. But he doesn't have any rings.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You mean the physical talent?

[Don Hahn]

The physical. And that's what we're talking about with the physical. Who is the better quarterback does not necessarily mean who would you rather have? Or the right situations. It's not a disrespect. Justin Herbert, if you were to build a quarterback in a lab, you would build him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course. Yes.

[Don Hahn]

All right. Now, you throw the intangibles in that stuff, but the better quarterback. Right, but that's why you had to go out and get Saquon Barkley. That's why you drafted how many quarterbacks in the wide receivers. You've got an amazing. And so there's a reason that it's all about the team.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

So who cares? Right? That's what I'm trying to tell him. Nobody's disrespected him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's the fun part of the conversation, because we talk about greatness in players, but then we forget that the most important value is winning. And.

[Don Hahn]

But he's also on the best team, right? That's also part of it. The Chargers were never the best team. Wild card weekend. If they could put the damn wild card game on a Wednesday between the Jaguars and the Chargers, they would listen. We got a 3am window Wednesday morning. Put that game on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's part of it. That game was not.

[Ira]

It's not.

[Don Hahn]

It's not good. They're not. They're not great teams.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You get what I'm saying.

[Don Hahn]

But.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But it's just, it is, it makes that, that's what makes these debates so.

[Don Hahn]

But there's nothing wrong with that. It's Jordan Jalen Hurts is never any. He's not built to go out there and throw for 4,500 yards and 41 touchdowns. He's not built to do that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But isn't it Jordan LeBron LeBron James was built in a factory to play basketball like that. If you built a human being that should be perfect for basketball, LeBron James is that specimen. And then he became a great player who had great moments. And yet ask anybody who knows and they'll tell you that if I had a play to save my life, I'm giving Michael the ball. It's not that I don't think LeBron is good enough. I know Michael will make that play.

[Don Hahn]

1-800-919-3776, Don and Rosenberg till seven here on ESPN New York summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Don Hahn]

So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Turns out that's very illegal.

[Don Hahn]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. Cmintmobile.com on WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat, we're trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast. Your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Don Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Said Catch this show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

1-800-919-3776. Get into a nice quarterback debate here in the middle of the summer as storms are popping up all over the area. So if you're out and about, please be safe. Let's go to Bobby in Bellmore. You're on ESPN New York.

[Ira]

Yeah. Hi, guys. Listen, it's not only the physical attributes, it's also the mental capacity of a quarterback. I think this guy Hubert's the most.

[Don Hahn]

Overrated quarterback in the league.

[Ira]

I'm going to tell you why. I mean, look at Justin Hurst has been to two Super Bowls chaser. I'm sorry, but the two Super Bowls played great. In the one that he lost, I see Uber against Mahomes and this guy spit the bit. I mean, this guy hasn't looked. No, no, I'm not saying you have. You have to. You know, if you lose the game, blah, blah, blah. But this guy's looked awful in big games. Against Mahomes, against it in the playoffs. I mean, I watched that playoff game. And John, you spoke about the coach. He had Jim Harbaugh.

[Don Hahn]

His first year with Harbaugh, like, Staley was not good. But you can't.

[Ira]

Yeah, but he looked horrible.

[Don Hahn]

All right, he did, but he also threw for five, you understand, 5,000 yards and 41 touchdowns. Like 38 touchdowns. You know how hard that is to do.

[Ira]

Yeah, but in big games, I mean.

[Don Hahn]

He played in two playoff games, right? He's played in two.

[Ira]

And one of them was.

[Don Hahn]

Brandon Staley was his head coach.

[Ira]

Yeah, I know, but you watch your regular season games against the Chiefs last year with Halbach. I mean, he looked horrible in those games. I mean, you know, I'm not saying you have. I mean, I'm not saying, you know, you lose to Mahomes, not a tragedy. But he has outperformed. I mean, he looks like he, you know, in big games, this guy was shaken up and he just doesn't look like the quarterback he is against bad teams.

[Don Hahn]

That's another conversation. But we're also not talking about. And I get that I'm no, I'm no Justin Herbert fan. I'm just trying to justify the ranking. He has played in two postseason games. One at the age of 24, blue.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Lead in one, big lead at the half in one and got smoked in the other.

[Don Hahn]

The other one threw for 273 yards, one touchdown, no interceptions. And in the game last year, he was. He was awful. He was he threw four interceptions through for 200.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The Chargers were running away with that game against the, Against Jacksonville.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. And it all fell apart two.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Two years ago now.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, it's 20. 22. Yeah, he was, you know, he's a 20 basis.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Got Staley fired. I mean that. Remember, Staley went for fourth downs all the time.

[Don Hahn]

Staley was just a mess. And again, listen, one could be a bigger winner, but it's. That's what I said about the judge and Jeter. I can't argue with you. Jeter is a better. More of a winner and more clutch. But the better player is judge. Even though Jeter has got the other attributes that makes him, you know, it's amazing in the eyes of the fans, the other player.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And he goes back to what I was saying. How many Yankee fans used to get triggered when baseball fans and baseball experts would never put Jeter in the category among the best shortstop. Like, there'd always be others that were better than him, and you'd always be like, how is Jeter not the best shortstop? He wins all the time. He has the total package. He's the one. He makes great play. And everybody will talk about, well, he's not as good as, you know, Omar Fiscale or anybody else that's from that era. It was always somebody better. And it would make you crazy. No more.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, but, you know, they were successfully better.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This guy wins. Like, doesn't that matter?

[Don Hahn]

No, of course it does matter, but it also need to be put in a position to win, you know, and.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I don't think, I don't think Hertz.

[Don Hahn]

We're not, we're not even talking about Hertz. If he, if he was drafted by the Chargers and play for the Chargers, because they, they would, they would have to rebuild the team maybe like the Eagles did, to make it work for his skill set, which is kind of the anti quarterback, where he's not throwing for a ton of touchdowns and passes. He's kind of. It's different. It's really a difficult comparison because they're two completely different types of players. Let's go to Sean in New York. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Sean?

[Ira]

Hey, what's up, guys? What's up? It's a beautiful, beautiful argument. And this always takes me back to what I always been saying when these arguments come up. This is why you can't equate wins and losses to quarterbacks. It's a team game. So Han is saying something that a lot of, of the media and those say that. Well, he has. He has one more. He has did so much more in the playoffs. He has the MVPs. But can you equate this. Let's look at another two different players. Can you equate or equal Joe Burrow to Jalen Hurts? Who's the better quarterback? Joe Bow hasn't won an MVP or Super Bowl. So who's the better quarterback, player, position. Playing at that position? That's an actual list. That's the list. The list doesn't say who's the best winner or who's the better. Who's the better quarterback, Dan Marino or Eli Manning.

[Don Hahn]

Right, exactly.

[Ira]

The list. The list depicts the player playing at that particular position. That's what the list is devised of. It's not devised of the greatest winner, not the devise of the person who has the greatest championships. And my, my opinion, I'm a football guy. In my opinion, I believe Joe Montana is a better player playing at that position than Tom Brady. But if you're equating, if you're looking at as great winners, then you can say Tom Brady. But if you're looking at the best quarterback at that position, you have to.

[Don Hahn]

Look at the skill set and the evidence, Sean. And I know, I know the caller.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean, Joe Montana was a pretty good winner too. No, listen, he was talking about.

[Don Hahn]

Listen, I think John Elway was better than all of them. Yeah, well, but there are circumstances that, you know, it's so easy to have the drop the mic moment and thank you for the phone call of Joe Burrow. One more.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Joe Burrow has played in seven playoff games.

[Don Hahn]

Well, Joe Burrow goes to Kansas City and wins. Nobody does that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But, but I just. He played in seven playoff games. He's won five of them.

[Don Hahn]

Right, but. So the caller's point is that his big moments. And he's won five of them. Like we. They're not starting pitchers. Right. So it's easy to just put the wins and losses on the quarterback. There's other circumstances.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's a whole other argument.

[Don Hahn]

That's part of it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But starting pitchers, you could say the same thing. He shouldn't get the.

[Ira]

No.

[Don Hahn]

Well, that's why wins and losses are misleading to callers and that's why war.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Is such a big stat now, because it's for position.

[Don Hahn]

I will tell.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It shows you the impact they have on winning.

[Don Hahn]

Given the opportunity, knowing everything that I know, without even hesitation, I would take John Elway over Joe Montana and I would have taken John Elway over Joe Montana before the two Super Bowls. That he won. At the end of his career, I think he was the better quarterback, but he was in Denver and he didn't have a ton of weapons around him, you know, and Montana had, I thought, the better coach and the better talent around him. It's like, so wins and losses are a little deceiving. I get it. At the end of the day, I get it. But, you know, does Eli win those Super Bowls if Justin Tuck and Ocu and Yora aren't, like, draped all over Tom Brady? Of course. It's a team sport at the end of the day, and there's a lot of other things that go into it. Yes. Herbert threw four interceptions in that playoff game last year.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right. That's my point. I Even if you want to say it is a team game and I'm with you, I agree. Because he's not on the field for half the game. So that's all correct. But you still have to make the when they matter, you can't be a passenger, Right?

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A quarterback can't possibly be a passenger. The ball's in your hand all the time. Every play it starts with the ball in your hand. So you are impacting the game. And so that's why it does matter when it comes to the quarterback and the fact that you could be on a winning team, but you can't say the quarterback had no impact on winning. You can't say it because there's always going to be a moment of play, whatever it is, that has to be executed to the highest level, and you do it.

[Don Hahn]

But again, not having interceptions, not watching the whole play by play, knowing that every interception was his fault, that somebody run the wrong route. Was there a ball that was deflected? I don't remember the game, quite honestly against Houston, but I could tell you that not every interception's equal. And it's not always the quarterback's fault.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how the sausage is made, but I just want to know. It's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter Weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Don Hahn]

You've seen the headlines, heard the debates.

[Ira]

Some say the three point ball has.

[Don Hahn]

Created a monotonous rhythm to the game. Has the three pointer ruined basketball? And how did we get here? The rise of the three point shot can be partially traced to an eccentric Kansas genius named Martin Manley, whose story didn't turn out quite the way he imagined.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I decided I wanted to have one of the most organized goodbyes in history, and I think I will be successful.

[Don Hahn]

30 for 30 podcast presents a brand new original series, Chasing basketball heaven, available July 22. Wherever you get your podcasts.