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- [00:02]
Don Hahn
On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast. That sounds like heaven to me. Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers. Game time is brought to you by Telemardu Irish Whiskey. Because when it's game time, I like when he holds it sticks. Poly time. The Yankees visit the Blue Jays at 7:07. That'll be on Prime Video. The Mets beat the Angels earlier today, six, three as they sweep that series now in a tie with Philadelphia for first place in the division. The Phillies will play later on tonight against the Red Sox. Tullamore due the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast matured Iris whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore Dew or try the new Tullamore Dew. Honey. During today's action, glasses up to enjoying Tullamore Dew responsibly. So camps opened up today and a lot of excitement around the New York Giants considering they've got new quarterbacks, right? New toys to play with. Russell Wilson, who's won a Super Bowl. Jameis Winston, who's a guy that is thrown for 30 touchdown passes in a season. He did throw 30 interceptions that year too, but some talent there. But everybody wants to talk about Jackson Dart. So earlier today on the Michael K show, Jordan Ronan was on. And now that we hear it officially that Wilson is going to start the season, Jordan talks about what that means for Dart.
- [01:51]
Jordan Ronan
They made it very clear today, Joe Shane and Brian Dabel that Russell Wilson is the starter, right? And Jackson Dart's job is to get better, right? Get better every day is what Brian Dabel said the goal is this summer. And he specifically talked about, look, you're going to make mistakes, especially as a rookie. The young players, they make mistakes, constant mistakes. How quickly is he cleaning them up? How quickly is he figuring out, you know, what the right play is and what the right way to play is? Jackson Dart had a rough day today, his first day of training camp, his first ever pass. And live drills of training camp goes for a pick six the other way. So you know everyone's going to be analyzing his every move.
- [02:25]
Don Hahn
It's also good news for the defense. Right?
- [02:27]
Peter Rosenberg
Isn't that how Daniel Jones started his actual season last year?
- [02:30]
Don Hahn
Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God, that was awful. Awful game against the Vikings. So he's talking about Jackson Dart. So Jordan, when can we expect Dart to play?
- [02:39]
Jordan Ronan
They're winning this one. I don't think they're going to make that change. Joe Shane, I asked specifically today, I said, hey, I wonder where you stand. You just said, Russ is your starter. Where do you stand on the idea of, you know, sort of red shirting your quarterback, so be it, you know, for lack of better term. And if that's something that you philosophically believe in. And he mentioned two players. Right? He mentioned we'll basically he was saying we'll kind of see how it goes. But they have Mike Kafka on their staff who they've seen Mike Kafka's Kansas city chiefs in 2017. Right. His job essentially was he was in charge of Patrick Mahomes in development that year. Patrick Mahomes played, started one game that year. Obviously that worked with Patrick Mahomes, Joe Shane and Brian Dabel. They went into the 2818 season in Buffalo with Josh Allen saying, okay, we're gonna, you know, have him sit on the bench and learn a little bit and eventually he'll get in. Turned out Nathan Peterman was their plan as a starter. Didn't work out the first half of the first game. They inserted Josh Allen. Now both of those ultimately worked out in the end. Right. There are different approaches that work here. So I don't think they're sort of stuck on this is the way we're going to do it. We're going to put him automatically in week nine, week ten. I think it's going to depend on where his development is and what the team is doing. But if the team is winning, I full expect them to stick with Russell Wilson.
- [03:53]
Don Hahn
All right, so let's, let's analyze that because the problem I have with the wins and losses is their schedule is brutal. So open the season at Washington. Now, I'm not going to say that that's an automatic loss. I know they went to the championship game last year, but let's see what it looks like in the second game.
- [04:10]
Peter Rosenberg
They almost won at Washington last year.
- [04:12]
Don Hahn
They did. So I'm not going to put that as a loss, but it's a tough one. There'll be a dog in the game. Week two at Dallas, same thing. Not an unbeatable team, but certainly a team that's better than them. Then they welcome in Kansas City for a primetime game. This is a team that the defending AFC champions and the Giants are always brutal in primetime games. Right. So that's tough. Then the Chargers come in. Not impossible. Again, there'll be a dog. And then at the Saints. So what is your realistic expectation through the first five games, what the Giants record is going to be?
- [04:44]
Peter Rosenberg
I would say if you're 2 and 3, you're happy.
- [04:48]
Don Hahn
All right. And I agree. And 2 and 3 is not a reason to change the quarterback. Especially when the next game is home against Philadelphia. Certainly no place to start a rookie quarterback. Another prime time game, Another primetime game. Prime. Video sort of prime. So. So you figure that's probably a loss. Now you're 2 and 4 and now you're going to Denver and at Philly. 2 and 4, you're not done. All right. Tough places to Play. Broncos won 10 games last year. Now you're at Philadelphia. You might lose both of those games. Now you're two and six. Now it's starting to slip away. Right now you're home for the, for San Francisco. I mean, what do you expect San Francisco to be?
- [05:37]
Peter Rosenberg
Better than the Giants?
- [05:38]
Don Hahn
Better than the Giants for sure. But could that be a place where you say it's a home game. I'm going to start Jackson Dart against San Francisco at 2 6, because then the next game's at Chicago and then home against Green Bay at Detroit at New England. If you wait until the buy, that's week 14. Right. So I would think there would be have to be an avenue if you're 2 and 6, 2 and 7, where you're like, all right, the season looks like it's going to be over. We're not getting great quarterback play. Let's bring him in. But I want to find a place where I'm not going to get the kid killed. I don't want, I don't need him to make his NFL debut in Detroit. If he's going to play in Detroit, I'd like to get a couple of games under his belt. So I kind of look at. If you're telling me going into week nine they're two and six, could that be the game November 2, 1 o', clock, home against San Francisco. That could be the first legitimate opportunity to see Jackson Darth, you know, for.
- [06:39]
Peter Rosenberg
Me, two and six at that point, if Dart has progressed to the point where they feel comfortable putting him out there and hopefully he has because now you're in an NFL locker room for half a season, plus all the off season camps, hopefully he has then yes. At that point I would say yes. For me, the number I always had in mind or the time I always had in mind for him coming in is when the Giants are mathematically eliminated.
- [07:05]
Don Hahn
From the player and 2 and 6 will not have the mathematically eliminated.
- [07:07]
Peter Rosenberg
No, because the 2, the 2, let's not forget. Right. Joe Shane and more specifically I think, and I've heard this from Jordan run on himself on my shows, is Dable's probably on shakier ground than Joe Shane?
- [07:22]
Don Hahn
Yes.
- [07:22]
Peter Rosenberg
Dable needs to save his job as far as he's concerned.
- [07:26]
Don Hahn
Right.
- [07:26]
Peter Rosenberg
So there's two avenues for him to do that. Number one, the Giants win now. So what's, what's a win total for you that you think is good enough for them to show progress and savings?
- [07:38]
Don Hahn
I'm not trying to, to dodge the question. Can I see what it looks like? Sure. That's very fair. Because you say well he's got to win six, seven games. Oh okay, but what if they win five? But they're, but they're in, in the 12 losses, two of them are in overtime, four or five of them are one score games. You just lost to a better team. You know, if you lose to Kansas City 21 17, that's not the same as losing to them 40 to nothing. Like I think it's lazy to say he's got to win six games. Well, first of all, how difficult is that going to be in this kind of schedule? And also what does it look like? Last year they won three games. They were embarrassing in every game pretty much except the Indianapolis one. But sometimes you can end up being a 5, 6 win team and you know, just didn't catch the breaks or you got a bad call or there's the team's just better than you. I mean when you look at the teams, first of all, I think there's only one game they're actually going to be favored. I think the Saint game right now is the only game they're favorited. And when you look at their schedule, they could win at the Raiders, they can beat the Vikings at home, they can win in Foxborough. All right, they can beat the Saints. So if you just look at the teams they might be able to be Chargers maybe, could be Dallas, that's still like only four or five wins. So if you beat the teams you're supposed to beat and you're in the games against the teams you're a dog against and don't embarrass yourself but you lose, you're going to Fire them after five wins. Now let's go back to the other point. If they're six and two and they're.
- [09:06]
Peter Rosenberg
Like six and two.
- [09:09]
Don Hahn
Two and six. Okay, they're two and six. They're going into the San Francisco game. They're getting very average quarterback play. Wilson's not doing it. You're looking at the schedule and you're saying, we're not going anywhere. Let's put the kid in against San Francisco. Just say, for sake of argument, where do you expect their record to be with a rookie quarterback that was taken 24th overall the rest of the way? Like how? Home against San Francisco at Chicago, home against Green Bay, at Detroit, at New England, home against the commanders, Minnesota at the Raiders, home against Dallas to close out the season? All right, maybe Dallas doesn't need the game. You win that one, maybe New England's shot, you beat them. But like, what do you, how many wins you get out of those with a rookie quarterback? Probably one. Another maybe two, three. So you could, you could be looking at it being 5 and 12. But your quarter. But, but Jackson Dart looks good. Little in over his head, but he doesn't embarrass himself. He's. He's completing 60 plus percent of his passes, more touchdowns than interceptions. Are you going to fire Brian dable? He's only 15 games.
- [10:12]
Peter Rosenberg
No, in that scenario. In that scenario, I don't think you are.
- [10:14]
Don Hahn
So that's why I kind of think it's a loaded question, although it is legitimate because that's what everybody else is asking to put a win total.
- [10:20]
Peter Rosenberg
Well, I guess I'm asking from a positive standpoint. So for me, and I'll say for me, the number is seven against that schedule.
- [10:28]
Don Hahn
You're not firing him with seven win.
- [10:29]
Peter Rosenberg
No, no, no, no. I think if he wins seven against that schedule, he's back.
- [10:33]
Don Hahn
Yeah, definitely.
- [10:34]
Peter Rosenberg
I actually think there's a number that if he hits, he's back. And for me, against that schedule, if he goes 7 and 10 against that schedule, I think he's back. He's back, but that's probably not going to happen. So then the other, the other avenue for him to come back is, is what you just talked about. Dart comes in and you come out of the season feeling like he's the guy, week one next year. And when Dart comes in, I'm not that concerned with wins and losses. I'm only concerned with how it looks, with how he looks. Because listen, Eli Manning, when he took over after what, five and four in 2004 for Kurt Warner he started. I guess he ended up starting seven games now. Have you ever seen a rookie quarterback look worse?
- [11:18]
Don Hahn
I came in Baltimore. Rex Ryan has told us, because Rex Ryan was on the staff in Baltimore, they thought they were going to kill him. Yeah, he had.
- [11:24]
Peter Rosenberg
What do you have? A 0.0 quarterback rating.
- [11:27]
Don Hahn
Awful.
- [11:27]
Peter Rosenberg
But all of those, the first five games, I don't think you've ever seen a rookie quarterback look worse. The second to last game of the season, I think it was against Pittsburgh. They lost, but he played well, played well. First good signs you've seen from him. And then the season finale was a meaningless game for both teams against Dallas at Giant Stadium. He threw three touchdowns in the fourth quarter. The Giants won the game. I think they finished 6 and 10. But you left that season based on two games feeling like, hey, we may have something you're. It only took two games to feel good about. And the next year they went to the playoffs, they won the division.
- [12:02]
Don Hahn
That was great. I think that was a Saturday game against Pittsburgh. Yep, I think it played well. Almost one lost. And then the Dallas game, that was.
- [12:09]
Peter Rosenberg
A good Pittsburgh team. That was 15 and 1.
- [12:10]
Don Hahn
Right. The big, the big moment, as you said, that big fourth quarter. And then he changed the play at the line of scrimmage, gave it the Tiki Barber touchdown. And then you were like, I could see something. Yep. And so.
- [12:21]
Peter Rosenberg
And they went 11 and five and won the division.
- [12:22]
Don Hahn
Right. But he. But he was only one in six in those games and everything kind of fell apart from there. So it's interesting how it's going to be handled. Brian Dable on goals for Jackson Dart this summer. How do you plan on handling Jackson though this summer in regards to development? Like what, what do you. What are your goals for him throughout the summer? To get better every day. All right. Not a lot there. We got more Ron on than we got. Dable asked about red shirting Dart from Joe Shane going through the process.
- [12:54]
Peter Rosenberg
We have Mike Kafk on the staff, obviously, as our offensive coordinator. He was in Kansas City with Patrick Mahomes. I think he played one game at the end of the. So we've seen that our plan in Buffalo was for Josh to probably not play much his first year, but the way it worked out, halftime in the first game, we're getting blown out by Baltimore. We put him in and, you know, he played the rest of the year. So I think there's some real benefits from sitting and learning, specifically from some of the guys in the room that have the experience that they have. But you know if the coaching staff at some point feels it's right and he's ready, then, you know, I'll leave that up to them.
- [13:21]
Don Hahn
Also, out of today, it looks like Andrew Thomas will be ready for week one, even though he's on the PUP list. Starting camp. All right, let's take a look at the jets and what the expectations are around them according to Aaron Glenn. They understand that their expectation, the expectations, like everybody else, to win the super bowl, you know, we got it, but we break those expectations down into stages. So the only thing I want those guys to think about, what we're trying to create in training camp, that's what we talked about yesterday, for the most part. So we understand the Super Bowls down the line. I mean, that's overall the goal. But, man, the expectation, training camp, we're trying to create certain things, and that's why we have to right now. Right? No win totals. No, hey, let's be in it in December. It's all just. It's a process. Eventually we want to get to the super bowl, but it isn't going to be this year. So what is a win total that you can feel good about the jets with, even though there's no expectations? What should I. What win total should I feel good about with the jets this season? Because there's talent there.
- [14:17]
Peter Rosenberg
There is talent there, and I think people are overlooking that. You can't take a step backwards. Win, loss and listen, and I'm not copping out here either, but a lot of it is similar to what you described as far as the. The Giant scenario. Can I see what it looks like? Are they in some of these losses, is there bad fortune involved? You know, I think if you can get to eight wins and there's just no circus in town. Right. It's just. It's just football and it's just business, which seems to be priority 1A for Aaron Glenn. You know, getting rid of all of the ancillary stuff that we're so used to surrounding the jets for all of these years. If you could do that, if you can come away with eight wins. Because if, again, if you go through the weeks in the second half of last season, you could flip six of those games that they just blew because of shoddy coaching or, you know, execution at the end of games. So they were as bad as their record was last year. They were right there to win five or six more games last year.
- [15:18]
Don Hahn
And let's face it, Pat, they went from being terribly coached to not coached at all. Yeah. When they had Robert Solid not great. And then you bring. You make the. You make the change. And he wasn't ready. He wasn't ready to be a head coach in the defense. So that's the. That's the issue. And they still won five games. Now you had a future hall of Famer quarterback that played a lot better in the second half. And now you got Justin Fields, who, you know, we don't know how he's going to play. Um, so that's, that's where it really comes down to. Rich Samini was on TMK as earlier. How did Justin Fields look in his first jets practice?
- [15:53]
Rich Cimini
No interception at all. He was 5 for 8. He had a wide open. Garrett Wilson on a nice deep corner route, which looked pretty. And I'm sure they've done that many, many times together going back to the Ohio State days. So that chemistry there is looking real good. Other than that, you know, kind of a mundane practice for Field. He didn't have any major mistakes. Still like to see him get rid of the ball a little quick. I think it's one of the knocks on him going back to his Chicago days that he holds it a little bit too long. There might have been one play where it was a borderline sack. You know, it's hard to judge because they're not actually tackling the quarterback, as we all know. So it was an okay day. There was nothing spectacular. A lot of checkdowns. Today. He is the key to the season. If they have any hopes of making a playoff run, it's going to have to be with an improved quarterback play.
- [16:39]
Don Hahn
I think this is going to be a good defense, so I think both local teams will have solid two better than solid defense offense. We'll see how the offensive line stands up. But there's talent there with the jets, right? You just brought back Wilson. You should be able to run the football. It's all about the quarterback play. How is he going to play? He was good enough to be 2 and 4 last year on a good Pittsburgh team, but they still pulled the plug on that. I didn't do much in Chicago, but nobody's done anything in Chicago for a while. Has had a bunch of different coaches. Let's see how it works. But I think it all. It's all just about what kind of quarterback play you're going to get.
- [17:11]
Peter Rosenberg
And it's about can he be a threat in the passing game because he's a phenomenal runner. But if that's the only thing that you can do, and that's frankly the strength of their offense already with their running back group. He has to prove that he can hurt you with the pass because if he can't, they're not going to be able to move.
- [17:27]
Don Hahn
Now. I think they'll run the ball a lot, but teams are going to get wind of that. They're going to put nine men in the box, they're going to dare Fields to beat him and so he's going to have to take advantage of that. Will he be able to do it now? Here it comes. Ritz Samini is there any chance the jets will be in the playoffs?
- [17:43]
Rich Cimini
Well, Garrett Wilson said yesterday, you know, the expectation is that they're playing meaningful games in December. I think that's possible. I don't see the jets as a playoff team right now, to be quite honest. I think they'll probably win seven or eight games. That's the way I see the talent level. I think they'll be a tougher team than last year. They'll be more physical, they'll run the ball. I think they'll be better situationally, especially in two minute and red zone, probably reduce the penalties. We know that's been an issue for several years. So they'll be better in those areas. But I just think they're deficient in some areas, namely lack of depth. This is a team that could be crippled if the injury bug hits them. So I'm seeing a better together type team, if that makes sense. But yet, you know, not quite in the playoff realm just yet.
- [18:26]
Don Hahn
And the unfortunate thing with the third wildcard is it really doesn't say a lot to be technically, mathematically alive in December because you see kind of average teams get that third wild card. So if the expectation from Rich is, hey, maybe this team can win seven, eight games, you will be alive in December. You will play a meaningful game that first week of December if you're a 7, 8 win team. But what does that mean? Does that mean you're heading in the right direction? Does that mean that you're a good team? Or does it mean, hey, this is a Sport where there's 32 teams and 14 of the 32 go. Can we be, can we be at the bottom of the upper echelon of teams in the set in the first half of teams in the NFL and that that's what you're looking at? And that's, it's tough to fathom in what is, I think the better conference the AFC isn't handing out spots.
- [19:15]
Peter Rosenberg
No and no. So I think that the seventh, the third wild card team the seventh seed in the AFC is probably going to be a good team in the afc. In the nfc, it'll be a mediocre team. Which makes the jets path to getting into the playoffs more difficult because.
- [19:30]
Don Hahn
Because nine wins back in the. Back in the 16 game schedule, nine and seven meant you might be a playoff.
- [19:38]
Peter Rosenberg
Oh, yeah.
- [19:39]
Don Hahn
I don't think nine gets you in in the afc. Right. The Bills you figure are going to win the division. Yeah. The Dolphins will probably be better, but maybe TUA gets hurt. I won't, I won't rule out the possibility of the jets maybe being the second best team in the east, depending on what happens with tua. But in the North, Ravens, Bengals I think are going to bounce back. Steelers, they always are. A team that finds their way to nine wins. Browns I don't think are going to be great. We'll see in the south, just Texans are good. Jaguars, Colts could be better than the jets for sure. And now in the west you have The Broncos won 10 games. Chiefs are the gold standard and the Chargers. So even the Raiders are better and the Raiders are better. But can the jets be better than the Chargers? Raiders, yes. Broncos and Chiefs know. So one of the Chiefs win the division. So the Broncos are one of the wild card teams. Right. You figure if you give the Ravens, the North, Bengals and Steelers could be a wild card team. So.
- [20:31]
Peter Rosenberg
So you're out already.
- [20:32]
Don Hahn
Yeah. But it doesn't mean that you can't be going in December a game or two out of that third wild card and you're playing meaningful game.
- [20:38]
Peter Rosenberg
That's right. I think, I think you also need to come out of this season for, for me, if you're the jets, you have to come out of the season knowing that you hired the right guy as your head coach. You have to feel good about it.
- [20:47]
Don Hahn
And you'll know what that looks like when you see it.
- [20:49]
Peter Rosenberg
And you ideally will also feel that you have your quarterback. But I think that's still a very iffy proposition. But I think either way you'll get clarity on the quarterback position. Is Justin Fields going to end up being a stopgap or, you know, in the mold of Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, is he going to get, you know, Baker Mayfield new new location, second act of his career? Does he have that in him?
- [21:15]
Don Hahn
If we're taking phone calls in the middle of the season of fans wanting Tyrod Taylor to be their quarterback, then it's gone off the rails because they want this to work with Justin Fields and he's almost like a draft pick adjacent, right? He's only 26. He doesn't have a ton of mileage on him, so he's a little bit older than the average draft pick, but that's kind of where they're treating him and they're not paying him a ton of money. So they'd like to see if this will work. And if it works, then they're heading in the right direction. If it doesn't, then we're back to the same old jets looking for a QB. 1-800-919-3776 your thoughts on the first day of camp? 6:00 clock we got enn we're taking up until 7:00 o', clock, so we're looking forward to that. Jake Aspen's going to be in for Dan Grass at 7, so it's all coming together here on ESPN New York. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. To battle stress, most of us can't wave goodbye to work, but we can start small with a focus on wellness. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Life plus Switch therapists at any time. As largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com timeout. That's betterhelp.com timeout. If you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple shop pay button you see at checkout? The one that makes buying so incredibly easy? That's Shopify. And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Because Shopify makes it incredibly easy to start and run your business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Shopify gives you a leg up with hundreds of beautiful, ready to go templates to express your brand style and forget about the code. Tackle all those important tasks in one place from inventory to payments, to analytics and more. Spread your brand's word with built in marketing and email tools to find and keep new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify shopify.comnetwork go to shopify.comnetwork shopify.comnetwork the McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back. Ba ba ba ba ba. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I didn't listen to anything you just said. Catch the show on whenever you want.
- [24:39]
Rich Cimini
Just subscribe to us wherever you get.
- [24:42]
Don Hahn
Your podcasts as the Mets already have a W in the in their pocket after a 63 win over the Angels and the Yankees will play a little bit later on tonight. We'll get back to the baseball but just talking a little football with the camps opening today. So let's get back to the busy phones. 1-800-919-3776. Talk to Aiden. He's up in Colorado. You're on ESPN New York. What's up Aiden? Hey Don. Hey Pat, what's up? I'm a big Giants fan.
- [25:09]
Caller
I hate to be so pessimistic again.
- [25:11]
Don Hahn
But I just really think they're going to start off 04. It's going to be ugly.
- [25:16]
Caller
You know they had chocolate soft serve.
- [25:18]
Don Hahn
Past two, past two season openers, right? I think that's going to happen again. And when's the last time they won a game in Dallas and Chiefs of the Chiefs. So I just think it's going to be bad and that that QB situation is going to get hot early and I just, I don't trust them to handle it properly if that does happen. Well, if it. See the one thing I'll, I'll debate you Aiden, because you're not wrong. I mean Owen4 is definitely on the table. Yes, it is. But how does it look? Because I think you could be owing four but you're in the games, you're getting good quarterback play, just the better team 1. I can live with that. If they're non competitive like they were at the start of last year and Wilson's throwing pick sixes and they're losing you know, 40 to 17. Well then I, that's not going to be tolerated. And then there is going to be a coaching change. So that's why I debate the record because oh, not oh, all oh and fours are equal now. You got to start winning some games, obviously, but it depends on how it looks. There were times last year they were just non competitive. Last year they didn't look like a football team.
- [26:20]
Peter Rosenberg
And that's what they look for. Pat Shermer too. The whole Pat Schermer era, those two years they were non competitive football.
- [26:26]
Don Hahn
Completely clueless. So he says, you know, oh and four.
- [26:30]
Peter Rosenberg
He said oh and four and ugly.
- [26:31]
Don Hahn
And ugly.
- [26:32]
Peter Rosenberg
If it's 04 and ugly and you're not getting quarterback play. That's why Jameis Winston is on the roster. That's when you see Jameis Winston. Because I'm going to assume four weeks in with a team that's already bad and going nowhere. I don't know that they want to throw Jackson Darden then unless he's like super ready. That's why you have Jameis Winston.
- [26:49]
Don Hahn
Listen, I'm going to be mad for obvious reasons if they're own four, but if they look like they did last year, I am going to be so mad at John Mara.
- [26:56]
Peter Rosenberg
Yeah, then you just wasted another offseason.
- [26:57]
Don Hahn
That why didn't you fire these guys?
- [26:59]
Peter Rosenberg
Well, what. He didn't fire them because he didn't want to make a change.
- [27:02]
Don Hahn
That's not a reason.
- [27:03]
Peter Rosenberg
But no, that's, that's.
- [27:04]
Don Hahn
So what you're saying is if you didn't go through McAdoo and Shermer and Judge, right then you would have fired these guys, but because you embarrassed yourself by giving all of them, you know, a collective six years. Three coaches in six years. I got to keep these guys. That's no reason to keep them. And I've been saying it forever. I never asked you how you felt about it. I've had people disagree, people agree, but there were two choices. Fire them or extend them. That's the two. Right now you're half pregnant. Like, I believe in them, but not enough to give them a contract because they're going to go into next year which is going to be their last year and you never have that happen. So are you going to extend them if they win five games? You know, maybe. I don't know. Like, if you believe in him, you extend them. If you don't believe in him, you fire him. He didn't either. So now I'm going in. You bring up what happened with Eli Manning, that was a first year Tom Coughlin regime.
- [27:54]
Peter Rosenberg
Yeah, he had a lot of.
- [27:55]
Don Hahn
He wasn't going anywhere.
- [27:56]
Peter Rosenberg
Nope.
- [27:57]
Don Hahn
Now you're going to be making decisions. Oh, by the way, win games. But while you're trying to win games and save your job, let's give Jackson Dart a chance and see what he can do. Like what? It just, you really set them up for a failure. You really have. And if that looks bad, then you could bring in another coach, another region, and you didn't do it. And now I'm just going to have to twiddle my thumbs until the season is over and you bang these guys.
- [28:17]
Peter Rosenberg
I think the other thing that weighs in to this is what confidence does John Mara have? And what confidence should John Mara have that he's going to hire the right person? Because if you just went through the last few coaches he hired and then add on to that Dave Gettleman and Joe Shane, he's the one ultimately going to make the decision. He's like, oh, for his last six. So what confidence. He doesn't want to make a decision because he, he's, he's over 6.
- [28:46]
Don Hahn
And let's, let's analyze those decisions, shall we?
- [28:50]
Peter Rosenberg
Do we have to?
- [28:52]
Don Hahn
But, but the reasons for it. Why did he fire. Why, why did he hire Ben McAdoo? Well, because Eli had a, had a really good season the year before under McAdoo as the offensive coordinator. So let's bring in someone that can get the most out of Eli, because we're trying to have Eli win one more time before his career is over. Because the worst thing, even though it was the greatest thing, the one negative about those Super Bowls is the Giants didn't have to have great regular seasons to win them. So the idea was just get Eli into the postseason. He'll make another run. So you hire McAdoo. That doesn't work.
- [29:25]
Peter Rosenberg
Can I just add one to that? Didn't the Eagles pretend that they wanted to hire Ben McAdoo so that the.
- [29:32]
Don Hahn
Giants would hire him? Just getting to not lose by everybody. Yeah, absolutely. All right, that's number one. Then you bring in Shermer, who's supposed to be a quarterback whisperer. Right. Look what he did in Minnesota. Let's bring him in. He'll get something out of Eli.
- [29:45]
Peter Rosenberg
Two games.
- [29:47]
Don Hahn
So the last two coaches you hired were specifically hired to prop up Eli, who was clearly at the end of his career and was not going to be able to give you a run. So then you go, Joe Judge. Judge is a comfortable hire Belichick Recommends him. So you go there because you, you, you had to, you had to get some kind of stability. So let's go to the old well of all the Belichick tree. That'll work because you know, look what Mangini did with the jets and then that ends up being a failure. So then you hire Dable because finally, finally they decide to go outside the box. They didn't bring somebody in that's got ties to the organization, somebody that you know and we'll see if that ends up working. So your motives for hiring people were ill founded. You're trying to save Eli's career when it clearly was over. God love him, but he wasn't going to be able to do much. Although I think it's aged better for him because nobody's been able to perform with this Giants team and the regimes. So John messed it up because he was following his heart instead of his head. Eli, because that was Wellington's last pick. We gotta do it for Eli. And then in the middle of all this, John Maris standing in the whole Geno Smith, let's bench Eli's. God love John, but. And I do, I love the Maras. I love the legacy. It's great. The Duke on the football. Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, yep. But honestly there's a lot to be desired with the Mares. I sound like a terrible Giant fan saying that, but I've been around since 1976. My dad taught me the history of this franchise. No playoffs from 1963 to 1981. The only reason they turned it around in the 80s was because the league forced them to hire John. George Young and then George Young to Ernie, of course he. And that's it. That's why you got Bill Belichick, that's why you got Bill Parcells, that's why you got Tom Coughlin, that's why you got the rings. No offense to Jerry Reese, but he was riding the coattails of the decisions that of course he made. So really when you look at the New York giants success from 1981 until 2011 when they won their last super bowl have been about two people. George Young and Ernie. Of coursey, that's the Mara legacy. Otherwise you got to go back to the friggin 50s the last time the team was relevant. Yeah, they lost a bunch of championship games in the early 60s and that's it. Think about that. 1963 to 1981, no playoffs, one winning season. So God love Wellington Mara and what he's meant to the league and sharing the revenue and all that and God love Jon for being the number one Giant fan on the face of the earth. But honestly, from a football perspective, there's been just as much bad as there been good. And right now it's been bad. And right now they're in a. They're in a toot right now. That is very reminiscent to when I was first introduced to football in the mid-70s. A clueless franchise. No idea what they're doing, pulling decisions out of their ass. Honestly, it's been an embarrassment there. God love them. They're a flagship franchise and I'm going to love them forever. They were handed down to me. My dad was a Giant fan. My grandfather was a Giant fan. I love this team. I'll always love this team. But part of loving somebody is telling it like it is. And it's been an embarrassment and it's teetering on continuing. And let's see if John Mara made the right or the wrong decision a year ago by bringing these guys back. And if it's the wrong decision. Pat, get me a buckle up, man. Cause it's going to be bumpy for another decade. Absolutely.
- [33:22]
Peter Rosenberg
He didn't make a decision. I don't know if it was the right decision or wrong. It wasn't a decision. It was just keep the status quo. Because he admittedly did not want to make a decision. You had that dark period from 63 to 81, the fans burning the tickets, never going to the playoffs and embarrassment. The psarchic play. And this era since I would say right after the boat trip. So that's 2016 till now. We're going on 10 years. This era is starting to rival that era just in terms of outright futility. They went 9, 7 and 12 years ago. And people in this town wanted to throw a parade for Brian Dable just for bringing competence back to this organization.
- [34:08]
Don Hahn
And I argue with people all the time. They could have very easily finished seven, nine and one. Yes. All right. They would. That was not a great team. And they got, and I give them the credit for winning that game against Minnesota. It was in Minnesota. The Vikings were a good team, but everybody knew that that was a perfect matchup for them. They won the game. And then what happened? Absolutely humiliated in Philadelphia the next week. And it's been nothing but embarrassing.
- [34:30]
Peter Rosenberg
And they've fallen right back, right back into the depths since then.
- [34:32]
Don Hahn
Let's go to Dave in the car. You're on espn, New York. What's up, Dave?
- [34:36]
Rich Cimini
Hey, what's up, guys? I just want to throw a couple of Things at you. And I agree with you, Dom, when you say, let's see what it looks like. I'm very pleased with organizations that it hasn't been a circus in the off season that I think is going to serve both coaches well. I think that, I think the jets are going to be a bit more sturdy and consistent. But here's my take on the Giants. I want to know what you think about this. This is probably the most talented team the Giants have had. Number one.
- [35:03]
Don Hahn
Yeah.
- [35:04]
Rich Cimini
If they can stay healthy regardless of the schedule and if a veteran quarterback like Wilson can keep them close in games, I think there's a lot of potential for, to do more damage earlier in the year than the latter part because when the L's start coming up or when the bodies are sore and you're taking more cortisone shots and more ice baths and you start losing, you still have enough players on that team who know the bitter taste of losing. And then you might see them check out on Gable. We'll see how it works out. And I'm just going to throw one more thing at you. I hope that Daniel Jones doesn't, doesn't blow his voter doors off with Indianapolis within the first 10 days. If he does, I think that's gonna work. That's gonna smell like Barkley all over again. And I think Dable might actually be shown the door earlier. I'd love to know your thoughts.
- [35:56]
Don Hahn
You know, it's so interesting because it's the same regime that gave him the four year contract. So they did believe in him at one point. But yeah, if he goes to Indianapolis and lights it up, that's a bad look, which I'm not sure will happen. But if it did happen, that's also part of analyzing the process on whether Mara did the right thing or not.
- [36:10]
Peter Rosenberg
That's a huge, that's a huge loss for Dable if, if Jones goes to.
- [36:14]
Don Hahn
Indianapolis and Shane, you know, because he obviously let, you know, let him walk too. Here's the thing they can hang their hat on and there's, there's some truth to it. When they got good quarterback play and that win against Indianapolis that everybody hated because it hurt their draft selection, but they got good quarterback play and Dable said at the end of the game, here's what he looks like when we get good quarterback play. So what they're banking on is what you saw against the Colts is what could happen if they get competent quarterback play. And they're hoping that Russell Wilson and Jackson Dart can do that. And if that's the case. There is some talent here. I know ESPN gave out like the ranking, the talent of each of the 32 teams and I think it was the Giants 27, the Jets 29, which Listen, I'm not going to say I have an intimate knowledge of all the other teams. But the jets and Giants have some talent. They do. There's talented players on this team and let's see if they can put it together and win games. That's what makes the NFL so special is you can't have a fantasy roster. You gotta. It's got. The coaching is so vitally important. It's not just about the talent. It's about staying healthy, calling the right plays, having the right motivation to go out there and play. We'll see if they can go out and do that. But that's what they're hoping for. That meaningless game against Indianapolis when they got decent quarterback play from. From Drew Lock who wasn't a great quarterback but he played great that day. That that's what we can expect on a day in, day out basis. If Russell Wilson can play.
- [37:36]
Peter Rosenberg
The first thing that needs to be taken care of for that to even be a possibility is Andrew Thomas has to play.
- [37:42]
Don Hahn
And. And what was said by Joe Shane expects him ready for week one.
- [37:47]
Peter Rosenberg
He should be ready for the opener again. Things change. You can never be 100% but we're going to take it day by day with him. He's ready, he'll be out there. But we anticipate him to be ready.
- [37:56]
Don Hahn
For the opener and that you're right, that's huge.
- [37:59]
Peter Rosenberg
If he doesn't play, then they're not getting good quarterback play.
- [38:02]
Don Hahn
No, you're going to get a quarterback that's going to get killed. You see Jackson Dart out of necessity because. Or DeVito if he's still on the roster because you know, that's the other thing. I don't want to bring Jackson Dart into a situation because Wilson was playing poorly because he's running for his life. That's also going to factor.
- [38:18]
Peter Rosenberg
That's not going to help Jackson Dart.
- [38:19]
Don Hahn
No.
- [38:19]
Peter Rosenberg
That's where you're bringing James.
- [38:21]
Don Hahn
I don't need him running for his life. No offense to either Winston or Wilson. If they get hurt, you know, I feel bad for you. But from the future of the Giants, no harm, no foul, right? I don't want Jackson Dart to become, you know, going back to David Carr where he was like killed in Houston and we never knew found out how good a quarterback he could be.
- [38:41]
Peter Rosenberg
You never get to start your career if that's the case.
- [38:42]
Don Hahn
No, it's. It's a horrible way to begin your career. 1-800-919-3776. Take a couple 7 o' clock at 6 o' clock, it's Jacob Perry and enn right here on ESPN news with the Venmo Debit card. You can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Vancouver bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. The card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Hey guys, it's Ceedee Lamb, wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys. I'm partnering with Abercrombie this season to.
- [39:14]
Caller
Tell you all about their viral denim.
- [39:16]
Don Hahn
All you need to know is denim should fit like this. My jeans need to check a lot of boxes. Fit first, trend second. They need to go with whatever I'm feeling and Abercrombie Denim has it down.
- [39:29]
Caller
Whether I'm throwing on a tee or.
- [39:30]
Don Hahn
Putting the whole fit together. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app, online and in store. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that dream house or ride, is a great feeling. That's why the State Farm Personal Price Plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I didn't listen to anything you just said. Catch the show on demand whenever you want to. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. Listen, I respect the Dead. I just don't get it. I told the story. My sister in law and my wife got tickets in Montville to see one of the Dead cover bands. I don't know. Whatever. I don't know their name. If you might know them, isn't there.
- [40:36]
Peter Rosenberg
One that what's his name is the lead singer of Now Jack Johnson.
- [40:41]
Don Hahn
What's the name of it? Something Star. Something.
- [40:45]
Peter Rosenberg
It's eluding me.
- [40:46]
Don Hahn
We'll come back high on pot. So there was something named like that.
- [40:49]
Peter Rosenberg
That wasn't it.
- [40:49]
Don Hahn
So I went and listen. They're talented. I know a couple of the songs, but I think they did like a 45 minute version of fire on the Mountain. And I just.
- [41:00]
Peter Rosenberg
Too much.
- [41:00]
Don Hahn
If I had a rope and a stool, I'd no longer be with us. I'd be gone. It's rough. I'm not a fan, but I respect you. I certainly respect your father, but I just don't know how you can enjoy that sober.
- [41:13]
Peter Rosenberg
He's a big fan of yours, my father.
- [41:16]
Don Hahn
Yeah. Hopefully you had a big fan of the Dead. Yeah, I was not expecting that answer.
- [41:21]
Peter Rosenberg
No.
- [41:21]
Don Hahn
No, I was not expecting him being a Dead fan. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Have you seen them?
- [41:25]
Peter Rosenberg
No, I haven't.
- [41:25]
Jordan Ronan
No.
- [41:25]
Don Hahn
I'm.
- [41:26]
Peter Rosenberg
I'm a casual Dead.
- [41:27]
Don Hahn
But your dad went huge.
- [41:29]
Peter Rosenberg
I mean, many, many times.
- [41:30]
Don Hahn
He didn't go to Woodstock, did he?
- [41:32]
Peter Rosenberg
I don't think he did, no.
- [41:34]
Don Hahn
I think you'd lead with that. If I went to Woodstock, that'd be the first thing my kids would know is that I went to Woodstock. Wonder how many people claim to go to Woodstock. That never made it. Yeah. Pretty awesome. Yeah, but I'm not a Dead fan. I don't know what motivated you, Julian, to play it, but it did spark some conversation. I do appreciate it. 1-800-919-3776 let's go to Mark and Charlotte. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, Mark?
- [42:00]
Caller
Hey, Don, Pat. Hope you guys are doing well. Listen, Don, I remember last, last year on this time on the Michael K Show with you and Michael were going over a list, I believe I can't name who wrote it or who came up with it or who released it, but it was the most talented rosters and the Giants were listed last.
- [42:23]
Don Hahn
Yes.
- [42:25]
Caller
And I remember that you and Michael, mostly you as a Giants trainer, like. And I'm a Giants fan too, by the way. And I agreed with you at the time, like, the Giants aren't the least talented team in the league. And you just said before about them being ranked 27th. Now is that a talented roster list?
- [42:45]
Don Hahn
Yeah, that's what, that's what ESPN had, the talent list. And they were 27 and the jets were 29. Right.
- [42:51]
Caller
And then your next statement was the jets and Giants are talented. And it kind of reminded me of that segment.
- [43:00]
Don Hahn
I think they are. Listen, I can't go into the depth of every team, but there's talent on these rocks. The Giants should be pretty good defensively. They better be good. I mean, Thibodeau can be frustrating, but he's still very good. They drafted well. They addressed the secondary. You know, neighbors is a legitimate weapon. They ran the Ball. Well, last year they've upgraded at quarterback. I, I find it difficult to believe that there's only five teams less talented than the Giants. I think they were. I thought they were brutally coached last year. I'm not a dable. I was a dable guy. He's losing me, man.
- [43:32]
Caller
Yeah, I agree with everything you just said but I'm just afraid that we're repeating history and it's going to bite us in the rear end because we're, I mean everyone has a breath of hope going into training camp until like the caller before said until you start oh, and for it all goes down the drain. But I don't know, I just don't want to get the hopes too high, that's all.
- [43:53]
Don Hahn
I don't have high expectations. I think this is going to be a five or six win team but I want it to look better than it has over the last couple of years where they look clueless. I was watching the playoffs. It was like I was watching a different sport absolutely than when I watched the jets and Giants. Like I felt like I was watching minor league football.
- [44:12]
Peter Rosenberg
The jets were at least competitive. They were their games last year. The Giants were not.
- [44:16]
Don Hahn
But over the last decade feels like we've really been tortured by these local teams and how well they played or lack thereof of wellness. So I think there's talent and so I point to coach. Coaching. I don't know how you feel about it Pat. Of the four major sports, coaching has the most influence in football. I don't care how talented you are, if your coach doesn't know what you're doing, you're not going to win. And I want to know if my coach knows what he's doing and I don't know. I mean you already got now was it Kafka going to be calling plays again? Well then why did he take it from Kafka at the end of last year? Like there's dysfunction here. What happened with the defensive coordinator? Right. Like Wink Martin did like the relationship there. Like what happened. Martindale was a really good defensive coordinator.
- [45:02]
Peter Rosenberg
Defense played really well.
- [45:03]
Don Hahn
So there's a lot of things that like leave a lot to be desired. Now Shane, I think he's showing you something. I, I think he's done well. I think he did great draft trading back into the first round to get dart but coaching wise, yeah, that was a good rookie season and he won coach of the year and all that. But really since then I, I, I, I left a lot to be desired. We're focusing so much on Talent, just give me a better coat, Give me a good quarterback, give me a good coach. We're going to figure out the rest. Everybody's got some talent, right Pat? I mean, you just want a little depth. But if you give me a good coach, give me a good quarterback, I'm going to win games.
- [45:35]
Peter Rosenberg
But why can't this defense be good? Not just like talent. Why can't they be good? All of these names with talent on the defensive line, from Burns to Lawrence to Thibodeau, who I know has been spotty and up and down and now Carter. That's four dudes that are picked at the top of the draft.
- [45:52]
Don Hahn
Those are really good players.
- [45:52]
Peter Rosenberg
The lowest draft pick among all of them I think was was Lawrence who's like what, the 19th pick or something? But he said the he's the best player of all of them. And then their linebackers aren't bad. Okara K is pretty good. Why can't this be a front seven that is difficult to run the ball against, that is difficult to throw the ball against, that puts pressure on the quarterback. Why can't the defense set the tone for this team this year?
- [46:15]
Don Hahn
I hope so.
- [46:15]
Peter Rosenberg
They better because the offense is not going.
- [46:17]
Don Hahn
Because if quarterback plays the most important thing, then the second most important thing is stopping the other team's quarterback. If they get in the backfield, disrupt things, they'll get turnovers and they'll be able to hang in games and take a lot of pressure off the offense to score a ton of points. We'll see if it happens. Jay newer, you're on ESPN New York. What's up, Jay?
- [46:36]
Caller
What's up guys? I guess you can hit a pain in my voice. I'm a Jet fan for a very long time, but I'm cautiously optimistic about the offensive line. I'm excited about them, but we need a healthy Vera Tucker. I think that's the make or break right there. We could get a healthy Vera Tucker. He could anchor and and get that offensive line going. I think we'll be okay. If he's hurt again and we have to play musical chairs with the line again, we're in trouble. I think it's really that simple. Whether Justin Fields, that's still trying to find himself and we need to run the ball in order to have any success on offense, we need a good O line and Vera Tucker for me is a key or one of the keys. That's pretty much it. Other than that, I'm just hoping for a respectable season with no real high hopes.
- [47:23]
Don Hahn
Well, if you got good offensive line play. Why is Philadelphia so good? Why are they, why are they able to win without any elite top five quarterback? Because they've got a tremendous offensive line and it makes everything happen. Defensive line, Philadelphia wins because they, they stopped the run, they put pressure on the quarterback. It's all about the line of scrimmage. And if the jets can block for Fields, he's, he's going to have a decent season. But they go, they all got to be able to stay healthy and all live up to expectations.
- [47:52]
Peter Rosenberg
It's on Fields. It's on Fields to do that. We don't know, I don't know that he, well, he.
- [47:56]
Don Hahn
Because he could buy time with his legs. So they don't have to be that, like, they don't have to be awesome, but they're going to have to do a lot better than they've done. Both of these teams, they've hit on.
- [48:04]
Peter Rosenberg
Some offensive line picks though. I mean, Vera Tucker is a little similar to Andrew Thomas. He's not as good, right. But when he plays, he's good. He, he's just hurt all the time. Every year there's that brutal season ending injury. So yeah, the caller's right if he stays healthy. But you know, when you draft somebody, you can't predict injury or health. He, he's been a good player. Fashion who looks like they got something there. Tippman they drafted, he was what, a second round draft pick a couple of years ago and now they got bamboo this year. So that, that's four high draft picks, three of whom we already know can play just in the last four or five years.
- [48:39]
Don Hahn
But you know, the Giants were also drafting, you know, Neil didn't work. Hugh and Flowers and you know, they've had so many different guys just not be able to live up to expectations. So there's different ways of building an offensive line. And that was supposed to be Douglas's baliwick, right, building an offensive line and it just, it just didn't work out. One of the reasons he lost the job, the biggest reason, because he screwed up the quarterback with Zach Wilson. 1-800-919-3776 get back to your phone calls. But coming up next, it's ENN with the great Jacob Perry right here on ESPN New York. Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.
- [49:19]
Peter Rosenberg
I don't want to know how the.
- [49:19]
Don Hahn
Sausage is made, but I just want to know. It's good.
- [49:21]
Rich Cimini
Hear more of Don Allen and Peter.
- [49:23]
Don Hahn
Weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 880 ESPN. The ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.