Kevin Clark (2:33)

And.

Mark Messier (2:35)

You know, licensing and we think that Everybody in life has a game seven moment and you don't in a literal sense. Obviously we know what game seven means, but when the game seven comes to you, do you have the tools that are required to perform under pressure when the stakes are the highest? And we've seen many times, including myself, where I didn't perform in those, in those moments. And so then you have to ask yourself the questions, why? Why wasn't I able to perform in that moment when the stakes were the highest? And then learn from it. And then when you get your comes back around, you get another chance and hopefully then you can, you can take it to the next level and just. And perform.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (3:21)

I love that your default position was. Talk about the times you failed in game seven. It's not exactly how people regard you. Were you, were you locked in, speaking of game sevens, to one of the great game sevens of all time in the World Series this past year.

Mark Messier (3:34)

Amazing. I watched, obviously a big sport fan. And when it gets to that level, what interested me most about, of course the baseball was incredible and everybody performed. But what really stood out to me watching that was when teams are really connected, how easy it is to identify. And the way they speak to each other, the way they celebrate each other's successes, where the ego is not the most important thing and who's getting the headlines of the limelight. We're all here together, we're all grabbing an aura, as Eddie Olczyk used to say, and we're rowing in the same direction. But when that happens in sport, it's so clear, the culture that.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (4:17)

And you could spot it just watching the team, you can just see how they interact.

Mark Messier (4:20)

I think everybody can spot it. You can't ignore it. It's just why championship teams win. And unfortunately we had to have a loser because I felt the Dodgers are in the same position as the Blue Jays in creating a culture that's conducive to winning. And that I think is one of the reasons why it was such an amazing World Series. Not only because of that, but also the way the players performed under pressure, you know, going into extra innings. And every pitch mattered, every at bat mattered. And it was just so incredibly suspenseful.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (4:56)

And it was interesting to see the way Ohtani at the end, in what was a sort of mid performance form in Game seven. You would never know that he was just a kid who won another World Series, who was a part of that team. You didn't see any sort of delineation of like, well, he's Shohei Ohtani. They were really all kind of locked in.

Mark Messier (5:13)

And, and you know, the greatest part about the, you know, Wayne Gretzky was just one of the guys. Mary Lemieux was just one of the guys, the greatest guys. Sports people that are always integrated into the team, they never hold themselves above the team. They're always, in fact, right in the pit with. And that's what great leaders do. They get inside with the team and they don't put themselves above it. And that was a great ex. That's a great example of Ohtani and the humbleness that you need in order to be a leader. And then all of a sudden, at the same time, you know, continue to concentrate and elevate yourself in those greatest moments.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (5:48)

Game sevens are transcendent too, right? It's not really just one sport now. Football only has a one game type of situation in their playoffs. But really, win or go home. Yeah, it is the game seven. It's your game one, but it is your game seven.

Mark Messier (5:59)

Exactly.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (5:59)

And so. But it is transcendent. It is baseball, it is basketball, it is hockey. It's all the sports that play, play and have series and stuff like that. But the way you have now equated it to life, because as an athlete, I'm sure you're not thinking to yourself, like business, like, you're not thinking to yourself, well, this is how it works when you face a challenge in life. You're trying to win a game, like in that moment, it's a game. When does it. When do you get to that point after your career, when you meet people in all walks of life and you realize that, no, actually this is relatable to a lot of people, not just exclusive to an athlete.

Mark Messier (6:33)

Well, I think for me personally, you know, I just real know myself winding my way through my own journey, you know, failing very many times early on, trying to figure out how I fit into the whole scheme of the National Hockey League and what it meant to be a player. I mean, I knew what it meant to be a player. My dad was a player. I grew up understanding what a good teammate was and. But we all fall down. And for me, when I in retirement, getting into the business sector, so to speak, I realize that whether you're a musician, whether you're an artist, whether you're a dancer, a politician, the businessman, we've all been through a journey to get us to the point where you've had success or you failed everybody, nobody can go through life unhappy, unaffected. There's no, you know, linear lateral escalator to the top. So we Realized that for my. For me, anyways, there, the Game seven really taught me the lessons that I needed to do in order to be successful. And part of that is failing. And when I realized that, then I said, well, Jesus, I'm not the only one that's gone through this. And so how can we amplify that message through this brand that people can relate to that isn't in the literal sense of a Game seven, Right. And help. But use. Use the. The. The lens of sport and focus on the guys that have actually really executed and played at the highest level when the stakes were the highest. And what was what allowed them to do that. The trust in themselves, the belief in themselves, the commitment to the practice, the commitment to the art, the commitment to the sport. All the things that you think about in life that allowed them to be free enough and focused enough at that moment to get to the point where they could forget about all the things around them and narrow the focus down to do what they could do a thousand of a thousand times if there was no pressure on the game. All of a sudden, pressure changes everything. And how do you take the pressure away, strip it away, and keep your focus exactly where it needs to be, that you can create the same stroke, the same putt, the same shot, the same skating, the same decision making without the pressure? I think that is where it all. That's where it all lives in the Game seven, which allows people to do what we saw in the World Series, you know, to make the pitch. They can hit that corner thousand of a thousand times until the pressure. Then they lose the feeling in their fingers, you know what I mean? Everything kind of changes, you know, I mean, you got to hook the shot in, but you kind of hang on to it because there's pressure, you know, I think that's where it gets really kind of interesting for me. And I think everybody in life, in a different sense, has gone through the same thing. And I think that's where we can really lean into the learnings from game 7 and then amplify that out into. Out of the. The more theoretical sense.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (9:38)

It's the moment of truth, right? Like, everybody has that moment. It's the moment of truth and how you respond to it. So you've experienced it. You know the feeling, right? I mean.

Mark Messier (9:47)

Well, I know the feeling of failure, too.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (9:48)

Okay, But. But you also very famously know the feeling of the winning the face off and the streamers come down, right? So you know what that's like. What is that? Is it. You were talking about this making the same moment without any pressure. Is it simply just learning how to calm yourself down in a moment of truth? Is that all it is?

Mark Messier (10:07)

I don't think it's all it is. But for me, the night before Game 7, and I've said this, you know, a few times, I would allow myself to envision every. Every scenario that could possibly happen, whether I would sit there the night before, laying in bed, and I would let myself, allow myself to think about what it's going to look like if we lose this game in 1994. I can tell you, I sat there and laid there in bed the night before and for many hours thinking what it would look like and feel like if we don't win this game. And then you allow yourself to go, wow, what's it going to feel like if we do win the game? You know, you see yourself holding a cup, you see the crowd going crazy, you're hugging your teammates and you go. So you go through all that, as you get closer to the game, all that starts to kind of dissipate. The negativity, the negative side of it dissipates. You start thinking about more about the winning side and then even towards. More towards the game, that goes away. And now you're starting to focus on the execution of what I need to do as a player personally and what we need to do as a team to win the game. So if you're really kind of in the moment and you're not worried about the outcome, you're not worried about the final score and you're looking at the clock, then I can just really kind of focus in on what?

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (11:27)

The process.

Mark Messier (11:28)

Thank you. The process. And I think it's easier said than done. And it takes a lot of practice and then the unwavering belief in yourself that you have spent the majority of your life to this point, for this moment, and you've practiced, like we said earlier, you've practiced this. You failed. But when you failed, you're tough enough to and had enough courage to ask yourself, why did I fail? What can I do to be better teammate? What can I do to be a better player? What can I do to be a better, you know, teammate, player, person, whatever. And then, you know, the day of wrecking is going to come. And so when I get to that point, I'm not worried about that. I failed in this before because when I failed, I'm a way better player than I am now. I'm a more experienced player. I'm a more accomplished player. I have more skill, I have more Experience and all the things. So whatever happened in the past, this is my moment. This is my opportunity to show that. And so my confidence is going through the roof because I believe in myself and unwavering trust that I have, not only myself, but teammates. And trust becomes absolutely paramount.

Peter Rosenberg (12:44)

Talking to Don Hahn and Rosenberg. You know, we live in a world, it's black and white. Win, lose, succeed, fail. But is there ever a scenario where you do everything right and you're 100% prepared and you still lose?

Mark Messier (12:56)

Yes. Yes. And that's. That's the. That's the greatest part about where we live. I mean, and that's why I believe that you. You can be a winner and not win. And I think that, you know, I know I played a lot of players, and I think there's been a lot of players in any sport that never had the opportunity to be in a situation where they had the resources around them or the people around them or things didn't quite go their way. And so they weren't, you know, like, actually have a championship ring, but they conducted themselves as a champion. They did everything they. That it takes to be a champion, and it didn't work out. But that's also the reality and the brutality of our sport. Not all my sport, but any sport. And we're reliant on the hardest thing to do. Why it's so hard to win is because you're so reliant on everybody, to have the same amount of commitment and passion and discipline that you or any person does that really wants to win. But I can't win without you feeling the same way. I can't win without you feeling the same way. So how do you connect with every person on that team to understand why they want to win? What was their motivation? What's your inspiration? Where do they come from? And it's always different, but in the end, in the end, if they're not thinking exactly the same way, committing this exact same way, you cannot win. And that, to me, is the most beautiful thing in sports when it does come together. That's why I'm saying it jumps off the TV when you see a team like the Blue Jays, you see a team like the Dodgers, who, Who are.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (14:39)

So locked in, or so locked in.

Mark Messier (14:41)

And everybody's locked in, not just some of the players.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (14:44)

Now, we've talked about losses and wins, but, like, beyond that, on a personal level, did you ever have a period in your career, whether it be five games, three games, whatever, where you just can't find it? Oh, yeah, there's just something off. What do you do? Because this is the thing that can happen in broadcasting for two. You just all of a sudden get in your own head and every time you get in a moment you're like overthinking it and it can be hard to reverse it. That thing that you believed in, that confidence you always had, you all of a sudden go, I was always so confident. Why I suck? How am I so confident? What did you do to sort of turn that?

Mark Messier (15:21)

I think that's one of the biggest. I don't think it's a secret, but I think it's something that as an athlete, everybody's searching for. How do you actually recall that when it matters most, like a game seven, when it matters the most, when the pressure is the most, when the stakes are the highest, how do you perform at your highest? For me, it was always about.

State Farm Announcer (15:49)

Not.

Mark Messier (15:49)

The journey, but the trust I had in myself that I had put the work in. And everybody talks about the zone in sports. For me, the zone was really kind of a fancy way to say it. Now there's all different kinds of terms, but it's just a way of a deep level of concentration that you're paying attention and that you're in the present and that we are so distracted by many different things. By finances, by family, friendships, the list goes on. You're talking about, you know, an ecosystem of 60 people, 30 players, trainers. Everybody's got problems, everybody's got day to day life issues that could creep into it. And you're always trying to mitigate that from each and every player. And so when it really gets down to it, you have to live a life like a champion. You don't go to the rink and think you're gonna be a champion because you're gonna show up at 6 o' clock for a 7 o' clock game or 4 o' clock for 7 o' clock game. And so it's 4 o' clock to 10 o' clock or the five hours at practice there. You're living your life as a champion. You are, you are eliminating distractions. You are completely focused in. Of course, family always comes first. Of course spirituality, religion can come into the play, obviously for a lot of players. And then, then it's, then it's work, then it's your Dennis, your craft. And if you're not doing that and you have distractions, there's no way in a world that when you get to those places that you're going to be able to now all of a sudden decide that this is A time I'm going to really lock in. You're locked in on 24 7. And I think that's a different level of consciousness as a player. And you look at the players that have really. Like, I saw pure genius for years with playing with Wayne Gretzky. He was so locked in mentally about what he was trying to do, his preparation, his focus, thinking about it, eating it, sleeping. I mean, and that's. And if you want to play at that level, if you want to actually really give yourself the opportunity, not only things that we talked about, but. But you have to be living the life of a champion. And I think that will rid you of the distractions that can ultimately get into one of those most pressurized moments. If you're not completely into it and relaxed, something is going to come in there. You're going to get undisciplined. You're going to do something that nobody has ever expected. And I've seen it before. And it's always the same things that happen at the most critical times. Because if you can't trust the guy that goes on out in the ice, and you can't. You have to trust him to be where he's supposed to be, do what he's supposed to do at the right time. Every time, not once in a while, but every time that he goes out in the ice, we either. I got to be able to count on him, and if we don't, we got a problem. And it always surfaces in the most critical moments where there's a breakdown. And that's where teams either they win at those moments or they lose in those moments.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (18:45)

And we've seen it too long here.

Mark Messier (18:47)

In New York, as It's been been.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (18:48)

15 years since any team in the Big Four has won a championship. But there is A captain, number 11, playing at Madison Square Garden now that has had two years in a row of losing in a game seven. Last year in the conference finals, you know, I'm talking about Jalen Brunson. And when you see what the Knicks are trying to do, what he's trying to do is it's 53 years, I think, this year.

Mark Messier (19:13)

Yep.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (19:14)

Since they last won a championship. You were 54 years. How hard was that to do? Like, when you think about it, we all see Game seven. We all see the celebration, we all see the great moments, but we forget that the year before you didn't make the playoffs, there were boos and everything else. When you look at what Jalen Brunson is trying to do right now with the Knicks. How hard was. Was it in New York with the pressure, expectations, all the things that come with it to have finally get to the mountaintop. Because that's what this group right now is trying to do. And this is the closest they've ever been since, since Patrick Ewing in all those days.

Mark Messier (19:53)

Yeah. So I think what you're really, I think we touched on this before in those moments there. So if you look at the last two years for the Knicks, I. And I don't know, I mean, I don't know. Basket. Well, I love basketball. I, I love basketball in the playoffs. I love everything about it. The physical, the, the, the strategy. I used to be a big Celtic fan and my brother was a LA Laker fan and then you know, we were winning championships in Edmonton and you know, it was kind of this, the Celtics were winning that collision there with those two teams and different styles and my brother loved the, the Lakers and I love Larry Bird and the grittiness of Boston and all. But I think what, what you're saying is that so for the Knicks, well, what did they learn from last two years? You know, and if, and unfortunately those are really hard conversations that you have to have as an organization. You have to have as, as players, management, coaches and then yourself as a player. What were we missing? What, what do we need to do to get over the top now? If it's talent or depth or whatever it is. Well, let's address that. If it's that we weren't in good enough condition, we got tired, we were injured, let's address that. I mean, there's a multitude of reasons why teams don't win or win. And sometimes you can be all gunned sometimes. So if you're out gunned. So what are we going to do to address that? Yeah, you know what I mean? If I didn't play well, if I give the ball up, if I had too many fouls, too many turnovers, whatever it is, those are really hard conversations you have to have when you lose. I've had them with myself and it's not pretty because you basically have to face the devil and fess up to your shortcomings. But if you're not willing to do that, then nothing's going to change. And I think in my own experiences anyways, you know, after losing and failing and you know, we lost to Gretz when he got traded in 1988, we ended up facing them the first year he got traded and we were up 3:1 in that series and ended up losing that series. And I always Use that as a classic example of leadership gone wrong. Because I became the captain and I got so focused in. All my ego came into it. I. I got so focused in and that I had. We. We had to win, and I had to win to show that we could win without weighing. And my complete focus was so far gone and, you know, I was trying to play too many minutes, and I was, you know, driving to Zamboni in between periods and I was selling popcorn. I mean, I couldn't do enough to try to win the series. And ultimately we got up 3.

Peter Rosenberg (22:34)

1.

Mark Messier (22:35)

But then when I got tired and I finally got my eyes off the floor and looked around for help, you know, I had left everybody behind. And it was so humbling as a leader to lose in that moment, your teammates. Fortunately for me, I had enough equity with the players that they know I didn't do it purposely. And they probably didn't even know I felt that to that extreme. But I knew myself. I put everything. My perspective was wrong. And that was a hard summer to. As a leader, to really understand that. Even all the lessons I learned, all how you bring people into the middle and you bring. And everybody's important. I made it about winning without Wayne, which just completely contaminated the whole thing.

Peter Rosenberg (23:24)

Was your ego.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (23:25)

Did you have any ego issues with regards to Wayne when he was there, or. It only picked up once he left. Like, I don't want them to think we're not the same team because he's not.

Mark Messier (23:35)

That's a great question. And the answer is no. We were so tightly knit as I was a completely different player than Wayne for first of all. And I always say that he was so focused at a very early age. And I'm only. I'm eight days older than Gret, so, you know, but how many times could you have someone eight days older and look them at. Look up to them as a contemporary, right? Like, I was learning every day from the way he was prepared, the way he played the game, his skill set and all that, you know, he was sinking. I. I'll tell this story quickly. I went into his apartment to pick him up to go to a game one day, and I looked on his fridge and he had one of those magnetic calendars on there, and he had our schedule for that month, and inside every game, he had three goals, two assists against St. Louis, he had two goals and two assists against Calgary. Then he had. And it went on and on and on. So he had already mapped out what he was trying to accomplish for those 10 games in that month. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm thinking about where we're going to go for a beer after the game. So I'm sitting there, wow, I got to start thinking this, I got to start thinking a little, I got to start paying attention a little bit more. And so, I don't know, it gets, it gets into that. But there was never any ego. One of the greatest things that happened in Edmonton, there wasn't. And one of the reasons there wasn't is because Wayne was so selfless as a generational player. He included everybody into the circle. And for me, teams aren't built in pyramids, they're built in circles. And everybody's on the circle and everybody's reaching in the middle to bring the energy in. And there's no hierarchy in a perfect world because obviously there's leadership, obviously there's people that lead the way and people look up to, and you have your councilmen that can solve problems on and off the ice or all that kind of stuff. But ultimately in the end, it's an ego less circle of energy that everybody's pulling into. And Wayne personified that. And because of it, our team at Edmonton never had a problem. We saw that happen. I think back then St. Louis had a really good team, but there was friction and jealousy about players and all that kind of stuff. So we are kind of just. It's fascinating to me to see, to see teams and successful, seeing teams struggle in there and when you see it working well like we saw, and I keep getting back to the World Series, but when you see it working well, it just so beautiful to see teams come together in that, in that way.

Peter Rosenberg (26:11)

You still want to coach?

Mark Messier (26:12)

No, the coaching's passed me by now.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (26:15)

This guy's a broadcaster. He's all in.

Peter Rosenberg (26:17)

You're doing great. But I, I know you are. You were passionate about.

Mark Messier (26:21)

Well, I, because I, because I, I, I've, I've felt it. I've, you know, I've lived it. I know what, what has to happen. But, you know, coaching is really an interesting art and I don't take it lightly. I mean, I was a big Pat Riley fan. I was a big Phil Jackson fan. I read both their books. It's, it's the same message just told in a different way, packaged differently. But, you know, the, you know, Coach Wooden there, when Bill Russell was in there, would talk about, you know, you know, never talking about basketball, talk about life and be. And then being a good coach is being able to give constructive criticism without resentment, you know, so it's all about how are you, how are you communicating, how are you establishing relationships with these players there? It's not the coaching, of course. It gets into X and O's and all that, but before you even can get there, you have to have this rapport and respect of. So when you are, when you, you are tasked as a coach with coming down hard, which is ultimately going to happen, then it's, then it's taken in the right way, not with resentment and then that division that you got to repair and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's. I think coaching is a fascinating thing, but I think my, my time is coming on that now and quickly.

Peter Rosenberg (27:45)

Before we let you go, you just. Your thoughts on where the Rangers are right now.

Mark Messier (27:48)

Yeah. So we were talking earlier. I think the Rangers are, you know, they've made big changes and when you change your nucleus, there's going to be disruption. The culture is set by the nucleus of your team, the leadership of your team, that core group of players, that five or six, seven guys that are the core of your team. And they've been together for a while, they've grown together, they played together. And there's that chemistry and that synergy that's very hard to replicate in a very short amount of time. But the Rangers have changed some of that and it's going to take some time to bring in new players, younger players to establish that core culture in there. They bring in a new coach, they're probably playing a little bit different style. And as you guys know, when you are thinking on the ice, the play has gone up and down to you five times. I know there's. There's no you. If you're thinking, you're in trouble. And you have to be able to react instinctively to everything because everything is a coordinated attack on the ice. You can't cover 200ft by 80ft with someone going here and this guy not knowing what he's supposed to be doing. And that's why I said earlier there, if he's supposed to be here at this certain amount of time, I need to trust that he's going to be there exactly doing what he. Otherwise there's a breakdown and then everybody looks bad. So I think there's that. I think every. That transition route from coaching systems, nucleus, leadership is all kind of there. But normally I would say, you know, early on you get an indication. I think that with the way the league is right now and the competitiveness of the league and at the 40 game mark, I think we're going to have a better understanding of where the Rangers are. We used to talk about Thanksgiving there and the number, numbers show that it's not a good thing if you're out of the playoffs by Thanksgiving. I look at the East, I look at the Eastern Conference, there's only two teams with losing a record. I don't know who the hell's losing. But you know, it's so competitive that you need to at some point not play yourself out of the playoffs, hover around there until you get your footing, understand, you know, how you're going to win games, what's your identity going to be. And then hopefully the last 40 games you're in right in that mix there. And then you kind of catch fire with all the changes that they made.

Peter Rosenberg (30:08)

To your point, they're in last place in the Metropolitan Division, seven points back of first.

Mark Messier (30:13)

Yeah, exactly.

Peter Rosenberg (30:14)

So it's, you know, a couple of good games and you're right back into it.

Mark Messier (30:18)

But it's, it's, it's, it's close, but it's a million miles away. You know, I mean if, if you aren't able to figure out a way to win consistently and what is, what is that going to be and then everybody be aligned on this is what we're going to do. If we need to play unbelievably shut down defense and let our goaltender, which is a world class goaltender, win games and then we got some opportunistic scores and rely on our special teams or power play, let's do that way if we're going to just open the floodgates and outscore guys 75 or whatever, let's win that way. But whatever it is, let's figure out what it is, commit to it. Everybody commits to it there and this. And then you all go, everybody locks arms in and then everybody's, you know, together, we've all agreed on it and, and then you go for it and we'll see how, we'll see how it happens in the next few games.

Peter Rosenberg (31:08)

Well, you've been great to us. Good luck with GameStop.

Mark Messier (31:10)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much, guys.

Peter Rosenberg (31:12)

Great education.

Mark Messier (31:14)

Thanks you guys. Thank you.

Peter Rosenberg (31:15)

Sports, just life in general. So, so always a pleasure to talk to the great Mark Messier. Don Ana Roseberg coming to you live from the NHL shop at Manhattan West Plaza. And it's all powered by Game 7 brands.

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Don Hahn (34:38)

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast.

Mark Messier (34:41)

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Don Hahn (34:43)

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

Peter Rosenberg (34:50)

Yeah, this is the song I want the Peter to hear.

Mark Messier (34:52)

And Peter's not here to hear it. Yeah, hear, hear, hear.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (34:56)

Here, here to here.

Peter Rosenberg (34:57)

I thought he'd like this song. One of my favorite savage songs. All the technical ecstasy. Oh well, maybe another time. Don on a Rosenberg coming to you live from the NHL Shop at Manhattan West Plaza. And it's all powered by Game seven brands. Want to remind everybody, ESPN New York's holiday party is back. Both the Michael K Show and we are going to be at the holiday party with you guys at your mother's house and that's at Garden City, Long island on Friday, December 12th. We're once again collecting unwrapped donations this year to benefit the Garden of Dreams Foundation. It all kicks off at 1pm on Friday, December 12th at your mother's house. Brought to you by Amazon, Pickup, Security Dodge and Spiked Aid. Just great stuff from Mark Messier. And whenever you get somebody of that significance, you want to tap into other things besides hockey because we understand that not everybody is a hockey fan. But there's so many lessons that really any fan of any sport can take. Because like he read Pat Riley's book, he read Phil Jackson's book, they're basketball coaches helping him in hockey. I remember, you know, Bill Parcell saying, I don't know much about hockey, but that Al Arbour is really good at what he does with the Oslers because like winning's winning and how you win.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (36:10)

And you respect winning and all that.

Peter Rosenberg (36:12)

Stuff is all connected. So maybe the X's and O's are different because the sports are different. But as far as how to go about it, how to lead a team, it's all the same formula.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (36:22)

And you know what? It's why I asked Mark the Question about Brunson, because when, when Jalen was named captain, we did the press conference, but I got to talk to him, just chatting with him, and I turned and I said, we were at the Garden. I pointed to messes, number 11 retired, and I said, you got big shoes to fill. He goes, I know his whole story. Yeah, he said, no, he goes, I know that whole story. And he was giving me chapter and verse about, you know, coming in mvp, not making the playoffs, and then the, you know, the climb to win a championship. And he just said, that's the same. That's what I want to do, you know, so he's well aware of it and it's, it's amazing that no matter the sport, that the winners all seem to be, like, gravitate to each other. And by the way, he also could give a TED Talk, couldn't he, on teamwork and building a team and championships and all that stuff.

Peter Rosenberg (37:12)

Well, that's the sort of.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (37:13)

Maybe the jets and Giants should bring in Messier to, like, get them on track.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (37:16)

That's sort of the interesting part about the head coaching thing not working out because the energy he gives you and like, passion, how self reflective he is too. That's the kind of guy who gets it and understands how to deal with people.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (37:28)

You would think players would look and, you know, just, yeah, whatever you want a player needs.

Peter Rosenberg (37:32)

When I was going to ask Mess about this, but he, he was just so captivating.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (37:38)

We could have kept it for an.

Peter Rosenberg (37:39)

Hour and just keep talking to him. Is that none of the things he said works unless there's accountability?

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (37:46)

Yes.

Peter Rosenberg (37:47)

And players, if they're ever going to improve, if they're ever going to get better at what they do, they've got to realize, I failed, I need to be better. And I think we live in an era where there's a lot of finger pointing, oh, the ref, you know, committed a bad call, excuse making, you know, there's always somebody else's fault except yours. So Messier can give you that conversation and you could be thinking to yourself, yeah, maybe, maybe my teammate should listen to that because I'm good. Instead of looking in the mirror and saying, you know what, I could do better.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (38:15)

Yeah.

Peter Rosenberg (38:15)

And the other thing that I took from it is preparation that you think you're prepared until all of a sudden you see somebody else like Mess probably felt like, I'm prepared. And anyone went into that, you know, messy Gretzky's kitchen and see all the things that he was doing saying, yeah, maybe there is a little bit more I can give. Maybe there's a little bit more I could prepare for.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (38:32)

By the way, could you imagine, if you like, his, whatever the next team was in today's world where you have a phone and you take a picture and it says, tomorrow's game, we play the Blues and he has two goals, two assists. You take a picture and you say to whoever the goal is, was for the Blues back then, Mike Liute or whoever, and you go, this is what Gret's gonna do to you tomorrow. Let's see how he does that.

Peter Rosenberg (38:58)

Bulletin board, you know what I mean? Like, like, yeah, never mind.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (39:01)

Bulletin board. Just saying, like, this is what he's predicting. And then he went like, oh. All he did was get a hat trick with one assist. So.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (39:07)

Well, I'm always just amazed.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (39:08)

Wild.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (39:09)

Every single person who plays at that level, particularly now in this era, to get there required so much effort and so much work. So then to find out that there are guys who then work and put an effort at a completely different level than the rest of them. Yeah, to me is astounding. Messi is making it sound like, oh, and I was thinking about where I'd have a beer. I mean, okay, we all know, but he was working his ass off, too.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (39:33)

Yeah, he was.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (39:34)

And yet Gretzky was on a different level.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (39:36)

It's crazy.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (39:37)

That's just.

Peter Rosenberg (39:37)

It's just sick. And when you see the way, you know, the Giants are losing or how long the jets have gone without making the playoffs, and, you know, Sabres are going on 15 years, not making the playoffs, that's not my accident either. You know, the work isn't being done. Like, they might think they're doing the right thing, but you can't have that kind of losing and always just point to, oh, we don't get the calls, we don't get the breaks. We've got all these injuries. Hey, it's. It's a secret formula, but if you can get it, there's a reason why. Why you see some of these teams consistently good because they just know how to do it. He admitted, sometimes you do all the right things and still lose. But at least put yourself in a position that where, if you can win, you will. And when you. When you've dropped as far as these football teams have, that's what's just so frustrating. But you can't seem to get it right and fire this guy, hire this guy, trade for this guy. But if, if, if none of it works, Alan, if you're still working, walking into an environment where it's all disconnected. Does it really matter who the coach is or the GM is, who the players are?

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (40:37)

No. You know what matters? It's, it's, it's. Again, you know, we love Mike Tannenbaum, and he has this phrase that. I really love this phrase. It's the force multiplier. It's when you find that guy that walks into your organization and changes everything because it's the right energy. It's. Everybody just turns and goes, wait, he gets it. And then you find people that connect best and you get rid of the ones like he was talking about when, when he. When, when. When Mess said, you have to be there every single time. And if I can't rely on you to be there every single time in the most important moment, you're not going to be there and it's going to kill us and we're going to lose because you weren't there. Right. And so you make sure. And that's where the, the GM comes in. But the first thing you need is, is that guy. That becomes the gravity that everybody's drawn to believing in. Saying this guy. It's, it's. I'll bring it back to Brunson. Him walking into this organization as a, a, a signing that people were mocking, like what you gave him at second round pick, $100 million, but you saw it in like the first two weeks. No, no, this dude's different. He carries himself different. He. His work ethic is different. There's something different about him. Then they bring in Josh Hart, and then it becomes, all right, there's another Villanova guy. There's something about these Villanova guys. They're different. And they know Jalen. They know his work. And now it becomes the gravity. And those who didn't draw in, out, and we bring in other people.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (42:06)

Right now we are.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (42:07)

And within two, three years now, you have a whole collection of people. Like he said, it's the circle. It's not a guy at the top of the pyramid. It's a circle. But they're all kind of revolving around that one center of gravity. That's what you need is Jackson Dart. That for the Giants. It feels like it. Guys on the defense love him. Defense, they don't. They normally would not care about anybody on offense unless. Although that's a guy I can rock with, you know? Here, get that.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (42:32)

We didn't bring this up yet, though. Well, the hard part is as Don is questioning everything that exists for this team. And you're not questioning whether Jackson and Dart can play or not, but he.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (42:42)

Feels like the multiplier.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (42:44)

But what you. But at the same time, Don, you're still seeing all the issues you're seeing with this team. It's not like Dart's mirror existed. He's not turning the culture on its.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (42:53)

Head doesn't do that overnight. What you have to do now is continue. Like, that's why Abdul Carter, he better get his stuff right. Because you're looking like a guy that is not being drawn in. And so I gotta now get you out because you're the type of guy that can take, take the whole thing down because I can't trust you're going to be there when I need you. Which is what Mess was talking about. That's how you build a team. You make sure you have your center of gravity and then the rest of it, you build properly around it. Hard parts.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (43:19)

Finding that guy and, and I still.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (43:21)

I mean, the jets never have that guy.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (43:23)

Another night pass last night in which Jackson Dart made really great plays. But I still don't come away from it going, I know for a fact they have the center. I don't know yet.

Peter Rosenberg (43:31)

Let's dive into that because I think that's worth talking. 1-800-919-3776. Also the number to call Don Hahn and Rosenbergs coming to you live from the NHL shop at Manhattan's West Plaza. And it's all powered by Game seven brands.

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Mark Messier (44:44)

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Don Hahn (45:46)

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

Mark Messier (45:49)

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Don Hahn (45:51)

Catch the show on demand whenever you want to. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

Peter Rosenberg (45:59)

You're killing me, Peter. You're killing me. I'm feeling so far down. Feel that water while you're at it.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (46:21)

Delicious water.

Mark Messier (46:23)

Spare no expense.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (46:25)

Yeah, you were right, Don.

Peter Rosenberg (46:26)

I like it.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (46:26)

What's the name of that one again?

Peter Rosenberg (46:28)

You won't change me off of Technical Ecstasy. How about that Technical Ecstasy. Don Ana Rosenberg coming to you live for the NHL shop at Manhattan's West Plaza. And it's all powered by Game seven brands. Thanks again to Mark Messier for joining us. Peter's been on the bandwagon and I respect it. Like, let's hope, let's pump the brakes on Jackson Dark. And I, and I do think there is an element to that, the whole Eddie Murphy Ritz Cracker thing, you know, where you're starving and like anything is going to taste like a Ritz cracker. It's been so long since we've seen quality quarterback play and we want Dart to be great. He's not great yet. Clearly we've seen enough people, people that are in the know that say, that kid's got something, all right? There's something there that makes you believe he could be the next great quarterback. But there are still elements that need to be improved beyond the whole being reckless with his body and the concussions and all that, you know, that he still, he still needs to grow. He needs wide receivers. I mean, they were talking about during the broadcast yesterday. I mean, it's nice, you know, Slayton had a nice Touchdown. And they're going to get Neighbors back. Although he's had a couple of surgeries, you really worry about that. But as much as we talk about them having talent on the offensive side, certainly even the Neighbors in scad, who, injuries aside, they need to improve things around him, I think it's fair to say. Just like let's wait and see on Dart, I do think that people maybe have a tad bit exaggerated how great he really is. I mean, last night there were some good things and there were some flaws. He's a rookie. Guys, I do think we need to be a little bit more patient.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (48:06)

I'm going into next season now going. I. I think we have our guy with Jaden Daniels, but I didn't get to see him this year and he was hurt a bunch. And even with everything he did last year, I have a sprinkle of let me just see it again. So you can't tell me after like seven good starts and being out, you can't tell me you were all signed up.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (48:25)

You couldn't say it about anybody. You couldn't say it about Mahomes, Holmes, you couldn't say it about Josh Allen.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (48:31)

Nope.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (48:31)

You couldn't say it about Lamar Jackson. You saw something when they finally put him in at the end of that season and you thought, there's something there. But you needed to now know, can he carry a team through a whole season With Lamar Jackson? It's a very similar conversation with Dart. Got hurt a lot. Got hurt a lot. Taking hits because he ran a lot. And, you know, how sustainable is it? Well, he's won a couple MVPs, right?

Mark Messier (48:51)

Yeah.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (48:51)

So that's why when I see Dart, I am not anointing him anything.

Peter Rosenberg (48:55)

Right.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (48:56)

Right now. But I do know that he's got an it factor that goes beyond what he does under center. But the butter, look at the sideline, look at the interaction. But the reason there's a real thing.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (49:08)

There, the reason I'm only pushing back slightly on you, is I know that you see it and I know that you feel it. Until Don with quarterback as unfair as it is, until it translates to win.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (49:21)

Oh, of course. Well, wait, that's your.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (49:24)

But that's even more of a hypothetical.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (49:26)

That, of course, is the last piece of it. But what I'm looking at, though, like, again, you can have a young quarterback. That's good. Carson Wentz was really good. He was in the MVP conversation.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (49:39)

Oh, yeah.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (49:39)

But you know what happened? His teammates were like, yeah, whatever. And once you don't have that impact on the rest of the team, you really don't get anywhere with them. Quarterbacks have a unique position in this sport of being sort of. It's not just the CEO. There is something about them being galvanizers. Right? They are the. Like. Ray Lewis was a leader of the Ravens. It's rare, though, that those guys.

Mark Messier (50:06)

Very rare.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (50:06)

Play that role. Very rare. It's usually the quarterback that does me.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (50:10)

Throw something back at you say, saying that, is there a chance that, like the sneaky, not so great, great thing happening, camaraderie wise in Philadelphia is that Jalen hurts. Doesn't resonate with that team the right way.

Mark Messier (50:26)

There might be something to it, but.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (50:27)

What'S weird is that he did initially. That's what. That's why they fell in love with him when he. When he replaced Wentz. They loved him because. Different voice in the huddle. More command, a stronger voice. But you're right, he is very too cool for school. Very chill.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (50:43)

Too cool, Religious. By the way, I have no problem with any of these things, but we've seen that as a recipe for what doesn't work in locker rooms. See Russell Wilson, for some reason, great example. These guys, they. I. I don't like Seattle. Doesn't play as leader.

Peter Rosenberg (51:00)

You're right.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (51:00)

Which is why, again, I look at that dart and I see somebody.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (51:05)

No, he's got the swag for the.

Peter Rosenberg (51:06)

Job, all of it. You got to have that.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (51:08)

So now he's got to win.

Don Hahn (51:08)

You're right.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (51:09)

Got to win, though.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (51:10)

But that's. That's why next year becomes so compelling. If they could just get healthy.

Peter Rosenberg (51:14)

I do think. And listen, I'm as guilty of this as everybody, anybody else that it seems to be so much about. We'll get the quarterback and everything's going to be okay. All right. Let's just say, for sake of Ari, they got the quarterback. Well, you got to make sure that they get them some weapons, get the right coach in here, that's going to get them to the next level. Right?

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (51:33)

That helps you.

Peter Rosenberg (51:34)

So there are so many things that Giants have to get right. Checking the dart box, checking the quarterback box is not going to be enough.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (51:42)

But it's a start.

Peter Rosenberg (51:43)

No, it's a great start, but to Peter's point, it's still not translating into wins. So that's got to happen because it shows you how far the Giants are. They're getting quality quarterback play and yet still not winning games because their defense is a sieve, because they don't have weapons and they don't have a Coach.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (52:01)

And apparently put it together. Accountability all the time.

Peter Rosenberg (52:05)

You don't get any of those things right. If you don't get the right general manager in here to get him the weapons. If you don't get the right coach, that's going to make sure that there's a game plan to execute to win. You are going to waste this player because there are quarterbacks that get wasted. Look at Sam Darnold with the Jets.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (52:21)

Yep.

Peter Rosenberg (52:22)

And now he's in the right place with the right coach and the right weapons, and they've got a chance to maybe, maybe go to the super bowl representative of the nfc.

Mark Messier (52:30)

Look at Trevor Lawrence.

Peter Rosenberg (52:31)

All right, so everybody talks about the quarterback. Oh, Tank for the quarterback. Get the first overall pick, and that's going to solve everything. Well, right now, Dart's playing at a great level, and everybody and their mother is talking about how this is the next great quarterback. He will not be the next great quarterback unless they get four or five other things right. That's how far this organization is away. So if it's Shane, then it's Shane. Fine. Hopefully it's right. Get the right coach, get the weapons, get this defense right. This defense has some talent on it, but yet it still gets gouged. 30 points in the first half. Patriots aren't that good.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (53:10)

No linebacking.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (53:11)

They haven't been every week.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (53:12)

No safeties to talk about. Like, their issues are abundant in this. In the backside of their defense.

Peter Rosenberg (53:17)

So please, people, stop with the whole quarterback, quarterback. There's so many other things. They are so far away. That's where we're talking about. The Jets. Hope they win, hope that they got the coach, then maybe you check that box. All right. But then they got to go find the quarterback, and then they got to make sure that Muji's definitely the guy to get the right pieces together. Yesterday was a humbling experience, very much because you felt like, or at least I felt like they were prepared to maybe take the next step. And they took a huge step back. Same thing with the Jets. Win three of the next five. Right. How is it going to look. Look against the Dolphins? How is it going to look later on in the season? Are they going to win some games here? That's going to be important because it's.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (53:58)

You're.

Peter Rosenberg (53:59)

You're too far away, man. You're at the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (54:02)

But if you want to feel good about the Giants coming out of yesterday, what you can see in New England is they thought they might have the quarterback. Then they got the coach and the coach comes in in 2025 and it's all worked. Maybe there is a world in which the coach comes next year and it all falls.

Peter Rosenberg (54:21)

I'm telling you that the Washington Commanders are an example of. It's not just the quarterback. Right. It's the coach. And it's a lot of other. And now you still might have taken a step back, not because you lost. Daniels maybe exposed other weaknesses because they shouldn't be this bad without him.

Kevin Clark (54:37)

Right?

Peter Rosenberg (54:37)

I mean, so it's so hard to win. It's so hard.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (54:41)

I know. I know this sounds crazy, but I think the Giants with the right coach and health back next year and of course, the simple things that a GM has to do, helping the deep, making the defense better could be what the Bears are this year. Well, it's a real thing.

Mark Messier (54:58)

That's the hope.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (54:59)

And what the Patriots are like. That's a real thing. It's. It's not as far. The jets are at the bottom of the canyon. I understand that.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (55:06)

Although the Giants are not. By the way, we're burying the jets real quick on a week in which the. The Giants deserve to be buried. The jets at least are playing for their coach. There is something positive we can see there. I know you're not. I know you're not moved by it.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (55:17)

No, no.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (55:17)

You're like the pusick of the. You're like the puzick of the Jets. I said yesterday it's nice to see the jets play.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (55:23)

I smiled right when folk made the field goal. I smiled. I did. I just did the, you know, from. From Rudy. And then I walked away.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (55:31)

One, two.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (55:32)

Just one clap. All right, good. Good for you.

Peter Rosenberg (55:35)

E N N is coming up next.

Don Hahn (alternate or co-host) (55:37)

Like you dream about.

Peter Rosenberg (55:38)

Don Ana Rosenberg coming to you live from the NHL Shop in Manhattan's West Plaza. And it's all powered by Game seven brands.

Don Hahn (55:46)

Thanks for listening to the Don Han and Rosenberg podcast.

Guest Analyst (possibly Mike Tannenbaum or another sports analyst) (55:50)

I don't want to know how the sausage is made, but I just want to know. It's good.

Don Hahn (55:52)

Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 880 ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.