Hour 3: Rich Cimini joins the show

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast: Hour 3 – Rich Samini Joins the Show
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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1. Introduction and Episode Overview

In the third hour of the Don, Hahn & Rosenberg podcast, hosts Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, and Peter Rosenberg welcome special guest Rich Samini, a seasoned sports journalist. The primary focus of this episode revolves around the New York Jets' recent offseason moves, particularly the significant contract extension of star cornerback Sauce Gardner. The discussion delves into the intricacies of Gardner's contract, the Jets' strategic direction under new head coach Aaron Glenn, and broader implications for the team's future.

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2. Sauce Gardner’s Contract Extension

Sauce Gardner's Four-Year Deal: Don Hahn kicks off the conversation by highlighting the news that Sauce Gardner has secured a four-year contract extension worth $120 million, with $60 million guaranteed. However, there is uncertainty surrounding the exact amount of the guaranteed money.

Clarifying the Guarantees: At [01:21], Rich Samini provides clarity, stating, "My source told me there is $85 million in guarantees in the contract. That much I am certain." He explains the different types of guarantees, distinguishing between fully guaranteed money at signing and injury guarantees.

Historical Significance: Samini emphasizes the historical importance of Gardner's contract, noting, "Sauce Gardner technically right now is the highest paid cornerback in NFL history." This places Gardner in a prestigious position among his peers, slightly surpassing Derek Stingley Jr.

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3. Jets’ Offseason and New Head Coach Aaron Glenn

Unexpected Timing of the Extension: Alan Hahn expresses surprise over the timing of Gardner's extension, considering the Jets' recent performance and the new coaching regime. Samini responds by indicating his expectation that the Jets would act proactively, similar to the extensions given to other young talents like Quinn and Williams.

Resetting the Franchise: Samini describes the Jets' offseason as "more normal by NFL standards than a typical Jets offseason," attributing this to a strategic reset under Aaron Glenn. He highlights Glenn's decisive action in parting ways with quarterback Aaron Rodgers, signaling a clear new direction for the team.

Cultural Shift and Expectations: Don Hahn reflects on the historical context of the Jets, emphasizing that real change is measured by on-field performance. He states, "Ultimately, he's going to be judged by the wins and the losses." Samini concurs, adding that Glenn is focused on setting a new tone and culture within the team, aiming for a more disciplined and competitive environment.

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4. Comparing Aaron Glenn to Past Coaches

Bill Parcells Influence: Rich Samini draws parallels between Aaron Glenn and the legendary Bill Parcells, noting Glenn's "Parcellsian" approach to coaching. He explains, "Glenn is treading that very thin line between being the tough guy with no pelts on the wall and, you know, being a championship coach."

Press Conference Dynamics: The hosts discuss Glenn's interactions with the media, with Samini highlighting Glenn's firmness and occasional abrasiveness during press conferences. This is contrasted with previous coaches like Robert Saleh, who took a more media-friendly approach. Samini warns, "If he doesn't back it up with wins, it wears thin quickly."

Cultural Foundations: Don Hahn emphasizes that regardless of coaching styles, the foundation of a successful team lies in performance. He remarks, "You have to just start winning games. Ultimately, that's what changes everything."

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5. Home Run Derby Ratings and Baseball Stadium Concerns

Home Run Derby Viewership: The conversation shifts to baseball as Don Hahn shares interesting viewership statistics for the Home Run Derby. At [26:00], Hahn reveals, "It's almost 6 million," surprising co-host Alan who initially guessed lower numbers.

Weather and Stadium Infrastructure: Alan and Don debate the practicality of hosting baseball events in open-air stadiums, especially in unpredictable weather conditions prevalent in Atlanta during July. Alan expresses frustration over the lack of retractable roofs in baseball stadiums, stating, "Anything built from here on in has to have the retractable roof."

Proposed Solutions: Don Hahn proposes, "We are going to put together a pool in which we are going to accumulate money over the years so teams that can't afford it that we can subsidize it because baseball benefits ultimately from everybody having this." However, both agree that implementing such solutions is unlikely in the near future.

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6. Dennis Rodman vs. Draymond Green: A Light-Hearted Debate

Role of Intense Players: In a lighter segment, Rich Samini introduces a playful debate comparing NBA personalities Dennis Rodman and Draymond Green. He shares anecdotes about their influence and asks co-host Alan to choose between them.

Alan’s Choice – Dennis Rodman: At [38:44], Alan opts for Dennis Rodman, praising his unparalleled rebounding skills and defensive prowess. He states, "Rodman's bigger. His rebounding was insanely good. Like, way better than Draymond's."

Balanced Team Dynamics: Both hosts agree on the importance of having such intense personalities within a team, provided they are balanced by a strong supporting cast. Alan adds, "Even that guy looks around and knows... because this is a good team."

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7. Listener Interaction and Personal Stories

Stu’s Story: Towards the end of the episode, the hosts engage with listener Stu from Flushing, who shares a personal story from 1994 about staying focused during a crucial Rangers game despite distractions from his fiancée. This anecdote underscores the universal struggle between personal life and sports fanaticism.

Humorous Banter: The segment is filled with humorous exchanges between the hosts, blending personal experiences with light-hearted teasing. Don Hahn jokes, "It's game seven, Stu," emphasizing the gravity of the moment in sports compared to personal distractions.

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8. Closing Remarks and Teasers

As the episode wraps up, the hosts transition to discussing upcoming events and tease future content, including the 30 for 30 podcast series "Chasing Basketball Heaven," scheduled for release on July 22. This sets the stage for continued engaging discussions in subsequent episodes.

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Notable Quotes

• Rich Samini [01:21]: “My source told me there is $85 million in guarantees in the contract. That much I am certain.”

• Rich Samini [02:19]: “Sauce Gardner technically right now is the highest paid cornerback in NFL history.”

• Rich Samini [05:15]: “He’s trying to adopt some of that mentality into his coaching style. And Parcells won his first year in New York.”

• Don Hahn [08:38]: “You have to just start winning games. Ultimately, that's what changes everything.”

• Alan Hahn [38:44]: “Draymond Green's a playmaker. He’s kind of a Swiss Army Life kind of player. Rodman's bigger. His rebounding was insanely good.”

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Conclusion

This episode of Don, Hahn & Rosenberg provides an in-depth analysis of the New York Jets' strategic moves, particularly focusing on Sauce Gardner's landmark contract and the team's cultural reset under Aaron Glenn. Rich Samini's expert insights enrich the discussion, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the Jets' direction. Additionally, the episode balances serious sports analysis with light-hearted segments, making it both informative and entertaining for a diverse audience.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

This summer, try the new Strato Frappuccino blended beverage at Starbucks. It's the classic blended iced coffee you know and love, now topped with a creamy layer of handcrafted brown sugar cold foam, available for a limited time. Your Strato Frappuccino is ready at Starbucks.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Don Hahn]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8:80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Don Hahn]

5:00 clock in the big city. Don Han and Rosenberg take you up a little separate o', clock, then coverage of the All Star game from Atlanta right here on 880 ESPN New York and all the different ESPN platforms besides the Home Run Derby last night and the All Star game tonight. The big story is. So Skardner gets a four year contract extension, $120 million with $60 million guaranteed. But it seems like the guaranteed money is a little bit dubious. So we wanted to get as much detail on this as possible. And our jet guy is Rich Samini. Very busy, but he cards out some time for us here on Don Hunter. Rosenberg. How are you, buddy?

[Rich Samini]

Hey, Don. Hey, you guys, how you doing?

[Don Hahn]

Good.

[Rich Samini]

Good to be with you.

[Don Hahn]

The first thing we need to know is just the details on the guaranteed money. Some say it's 85 million, some say it's 60 million. So can you kind of clear up exactly how much of Sauce's contract is guaranteed?

[Rich Samini]

Well, my source told me there is $85 million in guarantees in the contract. That much I am certain. Now, there's different kinds of guarantees, which I know can be confusing to listeners, but there's fully guaranteed at signing, and then there's the injury guarantees. And I do not know the exact breakdown on how much is fully guaranteed at signing. My guess would be it's probably 60 million or so in that neighborhood, but it is 85 in total guarantees. No one has the exact breakdown of the contract just yet, but it's. I think Sauce was looking for the apy the average per year. I think it was important to him to be the highest paid corner. So he, you know, he just jumps. He leapfrogs Derek Stingley Jr. By, you know, a 0.1. So he's slightly above Stingley. And so Sauce Gardner technically right now is the highest paid cornerback in NFL history.

[Alan]

Rich, first of all, thanks for doing this. I appreciate you jumping on with us.

[Rich Samini]

Sure.

[Alan]

When Garrett signed yesterday, we were both like, yeah, all right, this makes sense. And it makes sense on so many different levels. Then we were speculating whether or not Sauce would get extended because he's coming off a tough year. It's a new regime, and would they kind of have a little bit of a prove it year for him before they make any decisions going forward? So we were both a little bit surprised by this announcement today. Were you surprised by it?

[Rich Samini]

No, actually, I was surprised by yesterday's. All along. I had. Yeah, I thought Sauce was going to be the first because I knew for a few weeks that they were in a good place with the negotiations. And I thought. I felt fairly confident that it was going to happen before training camp. I thought the Wilson deal might take a little bit longer. The wide receiver market's a little bit more complicated than the cornerback market. And, you know, so they essentially got done at the same time. And so, yeah, I thought Sauce would get out there first and then Wilson, but it's the other way around. And you're right. I mean, Sauce is coming off. I mean, it wasn't a bad year. It just wasn't like the first two years. It wasn't up to that standard that he had set. But I don't think there's anything to be alarmed about. I think he got caught up like so many other players did and just the malaise that infected the team last year after the solar firing. So I think Sauce will have a bounce back year this year especially, especially in this defensive scheme with Aaron Glenn.

[Don Hahn]

So break down from your perspective. Why would Sauce do it now and not wait until the end of next season?

[Rich Samini]

Well, you know, get them early, you know, before the price goes up. The cornerback market has been really going up a lot over the last 12 months. It started with certain. And then, then you saw Stingley at the beginning of this offseason, you know, hitting the 30 million mark. So I think, I think the jets wanted to be proactive, something that they've never been with their players. And I mean, Quinn and Williams had to wait four years before he got his extension. And then really before that, I mean, everyone says, wow, the jets are being proactive here. They haven't really had too many players who deserve contract extensions in recent years. This particular draft, 2022, has produced two star players. And I also think there's some public relations involved as well. I mean, you have a new regime coming in. They want to send a statement to their locker room, to the fan base, that, hey, young homegrown players are what we want. We want to build around these guys. So there is some of that into this as well.

[Alan]

Rich, what's this? Offseason been like, you've covered this team forever. And after the two years with Aaron Rodgers and everything that's going on the last couple years, how would you describe this offseason?

[Rich Samini]

I would say it's more normal by NFL standards than a typical Jet off season, simply because it's been a reset. You know, they just hit the reset button. And I think it's significant that the first move they made this off season was telling Aaron Rodgers, sorry, we're going in a different direction. Aaron Glenn did not waste any time on that decision. He knew that when he got hired. I mean, even at his press conference, you could tell that he was going to move on from Rodgers. And I think it showed decisiveness on his part. And basically he told him after a few days on the job, sorry, Aaron, you know, we're going with another quarterback. And so after that, you know, the jets, like Aaron Glenn said at the owners meetings in March, we want to move in silence. And so he's going to try to change the narrative around this team. This has always been a team, you know, mired in dysfunction and loud noise and so forth, and some of that coming from Rodgers himself. So now they want to move in silence and, you know, try to create a positive narrative. Certainly these two deals creates the impression that, look, hey, we got these two young players and we want to embrace them and make them part of our future.

[Don Hahn]

Any more signings you think might happen here during camp?

[Rich Samini]

Well, they do have a couple other, you know, three guys, names jump out at me who are in entering the last year of their contracts, and that's Quincy Williams, Breece hall and Elijah Vera Tucker. They're all going into the final years, their contract years. Quincy Williams, I believe, wants a new deal, especially after seeing, you know, Jamie and Sherwood cash in. You know, another linebacker getting 30 million guaranteed. I think Quincy Williams has clearly outperformed his contract. He's been an All Pro. Last year he was not an All Pro, but close to the level he had the year before. So I believe he would like a new contract. It's just that I don't think I'd be surprised if they give out another huge contract extension. Breece hall, he's a running back, unfortunately, I think they're going to make him play out the deal. They have a couple of young backs on the team with Braylon Allen and Isaiah Davis. They want to give those guys key roles this year. So I think they're going to play it out with Breece hall and Elijah Vera. Tucker is a guy who I Think they should play it out with as well. He has. He's a talented player. We know that he's versatile, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy. So I would want to see him play, stay healthy for a year before I gave him, you know, the really big dollars.

[Alan]

Richie used words like quiet and normal when describing the jets offseason. When was the last time you could use those words when describing the jets and all the years that you've covered them and how much do you trust that, that that will continue?

[Rich Samini]

I know, Alan, that's a good observation there because, I mean, I don't know if I've ever used those quiet, normal routine. These are not words nor associated with the Jets. And look, it's a new regime. There's a honeymoon period. Stuff will happen. I mean, it happens to every NFL team, but they're trying to set a new course, I think. Aaron Glenn, I have a story posted today on different ways he's trying to impact the team and change the culture. And it's going to take a while. It just doesn't happen in one training camp.

[Don Hahn]

You have to.

[Rich Samini]

You have to just start winning games. Ultimately, that's what changes everything, is winning games and. But I do think he's got the right plan in mind. There'll be a tougher team this year. There'll be. They'll be more disciplined. I'll bet any amount that they commit fewer penalties than the last few years. I think the penalty total will go down. And so I don't think they have enough talent to be a playoff team right now. But I think they will play up to their potential, which is something we haven't been able to say about the jets for quite some time now.

[Alan]

You covered Glenn as a player, right? Not to age you, but you did.

[Rich Samini]

Yes, I did. Yeah. No, you're aging me, but I deserve it.

[Alan]

You put in the time I asked him for this.

[Rich Samini]

I remember his first day. I remember his first day as a player.

[Don Hahn]

Wow.

[Rich Samini]

So, yeah, he walked in and he was. They put his locker right next to Ronnie Lott and he looked like a little kid on Christmas. He was in awe of Ronnie Lott. And to this day we've talked about that. And, you know, that was the first player he met. I mean, talk about. Yeah, you know, having a great player put you under his wing. Ronnie Lott.

[Alan]

Yeah. So with that in mind, the thing I picked up on the very first couple of press conferences that he had as a head coach, and only, really, only you could answer this because of that Experience you had of him as the young kid coming in with his eyes wide is it. I have no tolerance for coaches. You see this more in football, especially in college, where they go to the podium and they talk to the media as if they're talking to players, and they give you a lot of football talk and they give you a lot of tough talk and they give you a lot of aggressive, like, we're going to do this, and this is how we're going to do things. And they like. And it just feels like, hey, just. Just talk to us normally. Like, we're not. This is not your players. Like, just talk to us normally. And I felt like Glenn was doing that a little bit in the beginning, and it kind of bothered me. But I've heard that all you guys love him. So what do. What am I like? What about him is not really who he is at the podium and how much is that maybe even changed since the first couple of times he addressed the media?

[Rich Samini]

Well, he's different. I mean, I think fans. I mean, Robert Saleh was. He was not combative at all, right?

[Alan]

He was very.

[Rich Samini]

Yeah. I mean, I was. The one time after the Cleveland game when I asked him a question was like the most upset I've ever seen him. He stormed off. I could count on, like, one hand, you know, the amount of times that he showed, like, you know, a fiery side. Glenn is different. You know, he's feisty. He'll bite back, you know, if you ask him a question. He's already nipped me a couple of times in press conferences. You know, he didn't like the way a question was phrased, and, you know, he lets you know about it. And when he does stuff like that, I just have deja vu thoughts of Bill Parcells. And because Parcells, we know, wouldn't hold back at all. I mean, gosh, I could tell you stories about Bill Parcells calling me out in front of everyone because of stuff I wrote. The only difference is Parcells had the pelts on the wall. Championship rings to act that way. Aaron Glenn is treading that very thin line between being the tough guy with no pelts on the wall and, you know, being a championship coach. He's not there yet as that, so it wears thin quickly if you can't back it up with.

[Don Hahn]

That's the thing. I'm just dubious because I'm like you, Rich. I haven't been around as long as you, but I go back to the team for the fan in 2000, so. And then the 16 years doing the Pre and post, none of it means anything until we start playing ball like that. Ultimately, he's going to be judged by the wins and the losses. So I'm not saying this is an act, but clearly he's trying to lay a foundation, lay a culture, change the culture that happens on the field, you know, so I'm going to wait and see how it all works out. I like the hire. I think it has a chance to work out. But to me, any bravado before you kick off is just that. It's just bravado. It's all meaningless unless you go out there and you start winning. And it was all great when Mangini was pretending to be Belichick. And they go to the playoffs and then they start losing and then it's a joke because, you know, it's all about kickoff.

[Rich Samini]

You're exactly right. It's a zero sum business and you win or you lose. And he is trying to set a tone, I believe, and I think part of that is probably keeping the media at an arm's length. Whereas Salah came in with a completely different attitude. He was trying to embrace the media, I mean, inviting us into his world and almost trying to make us part of the team, make us feel like part of the team. And we were like, wait a minute, we're not part of the team. We cover the team. There's a huge difference. Glenn is trying to treat us, you know, just like I said, keep us at an arm's length. And in the end, you're right, it doesn't mean anything. If he wins games this year, he'll be portrayed as, you know, the tough guy coach, you know, who worked magic with the Jets. If he doesn't, he'll be the tough guy coach who, you know, was like the boy who cried wolf. So, yeah, it's, it's all about what you do on the field. But there is tone setting involved. You know, the players see these press conferences, you know, they, you know, they see what he's trying to do. He's trying to create a meritocracy. You know, he doesn't want to favor any players. They're going to have to be competition for jobs. This is all stuff that I've lived before covering Parcells, you know, and Glenn lived it before playing for Parcells. And so he's trying to adopt some of that mentality into his coaching style. And Parcells won his first year in New York. You know, he went nine, seven, missed the playoffs at the very end in that Detroit game, but he, he Changed the culture in a year just because they did win some games. And now that's Glenn's challenge is to try to duplicate that.

[Don Hahn]

Rich, great job as usual. We'll talk to you soon, man.

[Alan]

Appreciate you.

[Rich Samini]

All right, guys. Have a good one, guys. Take care.

[Don Hahn]

It's so interesting, the things that he said.

[Alan]

He mentioned parcels a lot.

[Don Hahn]

Right now, Parcells had won two rings.

[Alan]

Yeah, right.

[Don Hahn]

So he already established the culture when he walked in the door because, as Rich said, he had the pelts. Salah tried to make the media the friends and all that. It didn't work. The reason it didn't work is they didn't win.

[Alan]

Well, that. But. But no, that doesn't work in New York. That works in other places. Trust me, I've seen it. It doesn't work here because, A, there's too many of us, and B, it's just a different attitude. So I've seen coaches come in and they every. Oh, no, we're going to make you part of the family because we know if we bring you in and we make it personal to you, want to be. You'll want to be part of. You'll want us to win and all that stuff. And it doesn't work that way. And so Saleh, at the very beginning didn't understand that his approach was not the right one.

[Don Hahn]

But the point I'm making is, is that if Saleh had won, at least in the interim, it would be, hey, it's kind of refreshing how he lets the media in and he's open and he's not gruff and he's not your typical head coach. And then you start losing and it turns in because I saw it from Angie. Mangini comes in and tried to be Bill Belichick, and they were winning and they go to the playoffs and he's man genius and he's on the Sopranos, and everybody's like, he doesn't have to talk to the media. I love it. They start losing and it's like, who is this guy not talking to me? Who this guy?

[Alan]

Uptight.

[Don Hahn]

It's all garbage. Have you ever met me looking at the tacos flying for gays? Didn't age well when he started losing, but if he started winning, people would be bringing tacos to games and it would become funny. Probably like the Shrek years, remember with Herm? And because you got. It's all about what you do on the field. That's why all of this is for show. I don't care about it. I'm not going to pay attention to it. I'm not going to say it's refreshing. I'm not going to say it's wrong because I need to see how it looks on the field. Because he's not going to be judged by anything else but how his team performs.

[Alan]

That's it. It's so funny, but that's. I have told the few people that have asked me for advice that have come to this town to be part of running franchise, coaching or even, like, players, and I was like, tell me about the media and all that stuff. And I always say, none of it matters. They're gonna love you. They're gonna hate you. None of that matters. The only thing that matters is, are you winning or are you losing? Because you'll get away with almost murder if you're winning. And even if you are, if you are turning water into wine but your team's losing, you're out. You gotta understand, there's no gray area.

[Don Hahn]

That's it.

[Alan]

That's all it is.

[Don Hahn]

So the only. And I've seen it all with this team, you know, Rex with his bravado and Salah with his all gas. No break. Everybody comes in with some slogan and then think verbally, they're gonna find a way to change the culture. No, go out there and win.

[Alan]

Just win.

[Don Hahn]

And then that changes the culture, and then it becomes a destination and all that. Just go out and do it. How did the Knicks turn it around? Was it something that Leon Rose said?

[Alan]

Was it something Tom Thither understood, though he knew the market, so when he came in, he didn't do any of that stuff. All he did was come in and just start repeating the mantras, all the different mantras. And that's all he kept doing. He bored you to tears at the beginning because he also knew, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win. And then once this winning started, that's when all of a sudden his. I'm only happy when I'm miserable. And all those little lines, you start chuckling because look at him. He's always miserable. But isn't it great? Like, so that's. And that's what Mike Brown's got to face. Think about Mike Brown. Yeah, Like. Like Aaron Glenn. No one's expecting him to win. No one. Like, you're just looking at, like, oh, Aaron Glenn, great story. Let's see what they do. But nobody's really, like, locked onto the jets like they were with Salah because they got Rodgers, they. This Mike Brown. It's. If they go. If they Lose the season opener, people are going to lose their minds. He does. I hope he knows. I think he does, but I hope he knows what he's walked into. But for Aaron Glenn, I don't think he's going to feel any of that stuff right now. But I agree with you. The Parcells act, which Samini's making it clear, like this is a lot of Parcelsian kind of personality that he's bringing.

[Don Hahn]

To the table, and that's going to.

[Alan]

Wear thin real quick. You're not Parcell's dude.

[Don Hahn]

Cut the ad because Parcells wasn't Parcells when he walked in in 1983 and they were 312 and 1. But did he do.

[Alan]

Did he act like that then or did he develop that over time?

[Don Hahn]

No, he developed it over time.

[Alan]

There you go.

[Don Hahn]

And then he takes. But. But it wasn't anything other than the fact that this is a guy that won two rings for the New York Giants. So you tolerate it. It was all funny when he would make fun of the media or make fun of a player. He had established himself. Aaron Glenn hasn't established himself. So you could, you can act like Bill Parcells, but now you got a coach like Bill Parcells. That's ultimately how you're going to be. So everybody comes in with a plan. Everybody want to win. Wants to win the press conference. Some people lose the press conference. Right. Clearly, Gase lost the press conference. Right, guys. Guys lose the press conference.

[Alan]

Ben McAdoo.

[Don Hahn]

Ben McAdoo lost the press conference.

[Alan]

The only way he lost it was by his look. Yeah, he didn't look at anything wrong.

[Don Hahn]

No, but he just didn't look right.

[Alan]

He threw you off. And you said, this guy's going to stand in front of NFL players and command their respect.

[Don Hahn]

And meanwhile, Judge at the time looked like, yeah, maybe Pat Shermer didn't.

[Alan]

He was fine in the press conference. He just didn't win.

[Don Hahn]

But it all doesn't. Win the press conference, lose the press conference, it doesn't matter.

[Alan]

Remember Joe Judge?

[Don Hahn]

How about Joe Judge? That's what I'm saying.

[Alan]

Joe Judge gave you that whole like, you know, the, the, the Johnny Buzz cut kind of.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. New. New sheriff in town kind of thing. And, and that's easy to do. Tom Coughlin did it. Tom Coughlin won the press conference. He came in here and he called out Jim Fossil for the injuries and all that, and everybody was like, rah, rah, rah, loving it. You know, and then he. Then he eventually, you know, he starts winning rings and that's working, but that just go out there, build the culture. You're absolutely right. There's zero expectations this year. And I think that's how the jets wanted it. Because if he goes out there with no real win total to speak of and goes out there, maybe wins five, six games, you can make that into, hey, that's a success, and then build on it. But at some point you could be held under the microscope.

[Alan]

Yeah, but that's when the expectations come. And maybe they come if you get off to a good start, but I don't think they come until after season one. If these things happen. All of a sudden you say, hey, we got a quarterback, right? Like that's important. Hey, we got a quarterback. This guy's pretty good, right? The offensive coordinator they brought in that nobody knows it. This guy knows what he's doing. Like, you get all those little things to happen and then that's when the momentum starts to turn and then more people are paying attention. But I don't think anybody's watching right now. That's why the whole normal and quiet when it comes to the jets, like, wait a minute. Normal and quiet? Are we talking about the same franchise?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, because it's been loud.

[Alan]

Would you say that part of their success this year, aside from wins or what it looks like, is if normal and quiet stay consistent? Can Woody Johnson handle a whole season where the jets aren't a big story? They're just sort of a background noise? Because you know the Giants are going to get that. The Giants are going to get a ton of coverage because this could be make or break for those two guys, Shane and obviously Dable and the Jackson Dart of it all. And all that's going to be all headlines. The Jet thing could just sort of stay back burner quiet. And is Woody Johnson okay with that?

[Don Hahn]

I've been saying it since the very beginning. That's why Aaron Rodgers isn't here. Yeah, they could talk about he wasn't a Glenn guy or how he played. Because with Rodgers comes expectations, right? With Rogers comes distractions, with Rogers comes attention. They don't want that. They want to be able to go about their business until it's time.

[Alan]

Woody Johnson wants. I don't think he wants to be.

[Don Hahn]

But I think he has been convinced. Hey, put zero. We want to make it work with this guy. Don't give any unnecessary expectations. Let's make it work. Let's be quiet. Let everybody pay attention to the Giants and Dart and they could be the clown show. Is Shane and Dable going to be out of jobs and all that. Let's just go about our business. We got our fans. We just gave our fans, you know, two players, you know, contracts that they love, just about us right now. Now, I can't speak for Woody. I don't know, is he going to be jonesing to do something week 12? Well, no, ultimately, we're going to find out, right? There's going to be a tension on them, especially if they start to look really bad or if they start to win some games and the expectations start to change. Hey, if they come out of the box, win a couple of games, all of a sudden you throw all that aside. The attention is now going to be on them. But I think for this year, they've convinced Woody, hey, we had the clown show. We're done with that. Rogers is gone. Let's just, let's just put our head down. And I think even Woody's got to be convinced that's the right thing to do. And at some point, it'll pop. And you hope it's popping in the positive instead of the negative.

[Alan]

That's the Tom Thibodeau thing was actions over words. And that's, I think if you're Aaron Glenn, that sort of has to be the mantra of that franchise.

[Don Hahn]

Now I've got ratings for the home run Derby. Ratings. Alan Guess. Don't look, don't peek. Don't cheat.

[Unknown]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

To the Don Hahn and Rosenberg Podcast.

[Don Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

Don Han and Rosenberg with you until 7 o'. Clock. E N is going to be coming up at 6. So I got the ratings for the Home Run Derby. I'm not going to ask you unless you want to be bold and give me. I'm curious here, how many million viewers.

[Alan]

Give me a give me an over under. Can you do that? At least give me like at least a baseline, an over under.

[Don Hahn]

Is it?

[Alan]

Because I can't imagine it's a big number.

[Don Hahn]

Is it over under 6 million?

[Alan]

Oh, I'm like, I'm going to go under.

[Don Hahn]

Okay, well, you're right about that. But not much under 5.73.

[Alan]

That's a lot higher than I thought. I did not expect.

[Don Hahn]

No competition.

[Alan]

5 million. That's a lot.

[Don Hahn]

Almost 6.5.73. I'm sure this is the total viewership now.

[Alan]

That's both. Both channels. It was ESPN and ESPN2. The Statcast was on 2 and I switched over to that because the again, the big dumper jokes. It's just enough. Too much.

[Don Hahn]

A little bit more creative. Now, is that up or down from last year?

[Alan]

I'm gonna go up.

[Don Hahn]

It is up slightly. In 2024 it did 5.45.

[Alan]

Okay.

[Don Hahn]

But it has gone down in 2021. 7.13 in 22. 6.88. Okay, so in 23. 6.11. Okay. And then 5.45.

[Alan]

So it's the peak 7:1 or is that the only number that you.

[Don Hahn]

I don't know. That's all. Richard Deitch has it and then he just has it from.

[Alan]

I'm just curious if that's where.

[Don Hahn]

2020. There wasn't one because.

[Alan]

Right. So post Covid, people got back into it.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Was 21. Who was in that was, was.

[Don Hahn]

I could not tell you. I don't remember at all.

[Alan]

Alonzo.

[Don Hahn]

Alonzo had to be in a couple of these.

[Alan]

Yeah, right.

[Don Hahn]

Or maybe at least one of them. But the Home Run Derby is one of those things. Listen, I was just talking it up as it's a great way to promote.

[Alan]

But you don't remember that.

[Don Hahn]

I'm not going to really. I remember Alonzo winning what years he won. Like it's, it's just something. But it's not.

[Alan]

Okay.

[Don Hahn]

It's not that big of a deal.

[Alan]

Like getting, getting almost 6 million people to watch, basically. What is this? The novelty act? Well, the night before your, your All Star Game, that, that, that's not nothing. You know what? I did notice too, Don, I know this would set you off. Open air stadium in Atlanta in July.

[Don Hahn]

No. Hot, like very.

[Alan]

I know it's baseball. I understand, but I mean, can we just, can we do better?

[Don Hahn]

I, I, I, I talk about this all.

[Alan]

First of all, the possibility of a rogue thunderstorm is high all the time. When you were in the south in.

[Don Hahn]

July, especially when there's humidity, that's where it happens.

[Alan]

And I know we have had this before with All Star games. I know we've had even ones that were postponed. And I get it. But it's just, it never ceases to.

[Don Hahn]

Amaze me though, if I'm Rob Bamford.

[Alan]

Tonight, by the way, cloudy with a chance of thunderstorms.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And I'm not kidding. 9pm is when the beginnings of the potential for thunderstorms begin.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. This is gonna be.

[Alan]

Game starts at eight. Yes, yes.

[Don Hahn]

Eight o'. Clock. You imagine.

[Alan]

Oh, I can.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, if they put the tarp on the field, then I'm out. I will not go out. Out. Done.

[Alan]

High of 94 today, by the way.

[Don Hahn]

So, you know, if I'm, if I'm Rob Bamford right now, it doesn't hurt anybody, doesn't harm anybody. I would just say Major League Baseball is not going to approve a new stadium unless it comes with a retractable dome. And what I would tell the owners.

[Alan]

20 years to it.

[Don Hahn]

What I would Tell the owners is we are going to put together a pool in which we are going to accumulate money over the years so teams that can't afford it that we can subsidize it because baseball benefits ultimately from everybody having this so we don't have rain delays.

[Alan]

Great. No owner would ever agree to this.

[Don Hahn]

Well, I'm going to tell you why.

[Alan]

Putting money into a pot. I have a roof. Why am I paying for this guy?

[Don Hahn]

Because I'm going to tell you why is because you're going to be in a situation where your team is going to be trying to get make it to the playoffs and you're going to be playing in New York and you're going to want to get game to be played. And guess what? Now you're going to have to play a double header because the game got rained out and you share the revenue and there's going to be a game even if you're not in a pennant race where instead of drawing from 50,000 people, you're going to be drawing from 10 because nobody's going to show up to the day game the next day, the makeup date and your team doesn't have to crisscross the country to make those games.

[Alan]

So luxury tax, I don't know.

[Don Hahn]

But we'll put, we'll put it together in some way, shape or form. But I am not. Even if you just threw away the pool money, I am not a. You are. We are not. We're not doing it.

[Alan]

I agree. I agree. That's long overdue. Anything built, I don't care where it is, anything built from here on in has to have the retractable roof.

[Don Hahn]

Makes no sense.

[Alan]

That should have been a rule in.

[Don Hahn]

This day and age. And for them to put an open air stadium in Minnesota, if God forbid, the Twins ever go to the World Series and are playing games on Halloween when it's 20 in Minnesota, is that good for baseball?

[Alan]

Although it's terrible for baseball, it's terrible for humans, it's not good for human beings to be out in that.

[Don Hahn]

Right. And they're trying to figure out ways to give more days off for the players. So they're starting now the season in March and you live in New York and you know how cold it could be on March 27th.

[Alan]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

When the Yankees are playing or Mets are playing a Sunday night baseball game, they open the season and it's 40.

[Alan]

I still can't believe that in this market there's not a single dome stadium. There's three of them and not one. The only thing we have with the dome.

[Don Hahn]

Well, there's four actually, if you count the stadium in Harrison with Red Bulls.

[Alan]

Okay, right, yeah. Actually, yeah. And isn't NYCFC building one? So the only one that has the roof is the usta. Yeah, right. That's it.

[Don Hahn]

I think just Arthur Ash. Right, That's.

[Alan]

Yeah, just Ash. They put that on, but that's it.

[Don Hahn]

Well, football, I don't mind.

[Alan]

Oh, come on.

[Don Hahn]

Because it's football. They're going to play the game, Alan.

[Alan]

Oh, I know.

[Don Hahn]

You know, so that they're not going.

[Alan]

To miss the game. It doesn't mean that the game's not going to be God awful because the weather's terrible.

[Don Hahn]

But that's fine. But at least they're playing the game. But baseball be played in its 30. No, there's a lot of people, I think that like the ambiance of it, like snowing and cold. I mean, you build teams around the cold weather cities and stuff. Like football. I don't care.

[Alan]

Football fun.

[Don Hahn]

I just want to know the game is going to get played. And if they cancel a football game, it's usually because there's two feet of snow and people can't get there. Even if there's a dome, they'll still postpone it.

[Alan]

Fair enough. So no, but the baseball stadium's no excuse.

[Don Hahn]

I just think it's just we're sitting here, you're promoting a baseball game and all of a sudden it doesn't get played and it's going to be a double header tomorrow. I'm like, how is that good for the sport? We live in the 21st century here.

[Alan]

Good for the sport. We know this.

[Don Hahn]

We're going to Mars before we're going to have, you know, 30 stadiums that have a retractable roof.

[Alan]

But this is an old conversation.

[Don Hahn]

That's why I like the retractable, because I don't want to play in a dome. I don't want to have a beautiful day and not be able to experience it.

[Alan]

No, no.

[Don Hahn]

I want the retractable roof.

[Alan]

Well, come on. I mean, again, we're in. Look at the times we're in right now. You just mentioned Mars. We literally are going to Mars. We're like sending people. Regular people are in space now. Like, this is not something that should be that complicated anymore. And the fact that it is insanely expensive, like, is understandable, but everything's expensive. I just don't understand how a league that relies so much on weather, whether you can play or not, and that we're still taking a tarp and dragging it across a field to cover it. That'll do. This is what we're doing.

[Don Hahn]

There's puddles in the outfield.

[Alan]

I mean, come on. Like, this is the best we can do is drag canvas and lay it out. These poor people, there's 50 people, they all grab a piece and they run across the field. That is technology. That hasn't changed in a hundred years. I know, but everything else we got going on. But that's the best we can do in baseball is drag canvas over the dirt part. Seriously, Don.

[Don Hahn]

Well, listen, if you went to an NHL game in 1940, you know, a guy would drag like an apparatus that looked like a lawnmower to clean the ice. And then somebody would say, maybe one day we'll actually have this thing called a Zamboni. And maybe we'll actually have a guy.

[Alan]

Named Zamboni decided to create one.

[Don Hahn]

But in 1940, when they're dragging the tarp over that, this is exactly how they're going to do it in 2025. Exactly. There'll be more of them.

[Alan]

Except now it's rolled up, it'll look nicer.

[Don Hahn]

It's rolled up.

[Alan]

There's an add on, but it's going.

[Don Hahn]

To be, you know, and every once in a while, they'll go viral. A guy will get trapped under it, or the wind's going to be blowing so much that the tarp is going to go.

[Alan]

Goes flying.

[Don Hahn]

It's just unbelievable.

[Alan]

Or it's raining so hard that they start doing like the water slide stuff where guys run out on it. Yeah. Look.

[Don Hahn]

Was that Rick Dempsey did that with the Orioles.

[Alan]

I just. I just, I can. It never ceases to amaze me that we just accept some things in certain sports. And that's one that when you're the commissioner of the sport, how do you not just look at your owners and.

[Don Hahn]

Go, guys, I know. And how are we doing? I don't want to be get alarming, but you saw what happened yesterday. And everybody's saying, like, we've never seen rain like that before. And these are. Things are happening more often than they've ever happened. Weather is becoming a major, major issue.

[Alan]

Yep.

[Don Hahn]

So let's go find a way to be able to get this done. Let's go to Richard of Manhattan. It's been a while since we talked to him. How are you, Richard? Richard. This should be good.

[Rich Samini]

Don.

[Alan]

Here he comes.

[Don Hahn]

Richard.

[Unknown]

Oh, hi, Don. You know, you guys mentioned the Fidrich game. That was 49 years ago. That was. I'll never forget it. It Was Al Michaels, Bob Prince and Warner Wolf. We didn't know nothing about this guy. We heard rumblings and now the Yankees were a great team that year. They came out of nowhere. My favorite all time Yankee team, that 76 team after the disappointing 75 team with Bobby Bonds and Catfish. Anyway, 76 out of nowhere. But we didn't know anything about Fidrich. A lot like Larry bird during the 79 NCA. 79? No, the 80. Oh no. 79 NCAA term. We didn't even know he was a white guy. We, we just didn't have that kind of coverage. Nolan Richardson, the coach of University Texas El Paso at that time or Tulsa? No, he was at Tulsa. Said he didn't even know when he was going out on recruiting trips. We didn't have that kind of vision. There wasn't that kind of visibility with these athletes. Anyway, Fidrich on that night was one of the greatest regular season baseball games I've ever seen. He didn't throw one pitch above a Yankee knee. Every pitch was on the knees. Three hitter complete game, three to one. Yankees went on to go to the World Series that game. Fellas, you know you talk about quarterbacks, you always rate quarterbacks. This one. But you know there's never a rating for watchability. Now I grew up France Harkington. You didn't care whether he won or lost. You watched him for him. Then you had Bobby Douglas. Then later on of course you had Tebow. The guy that's Must see TV now is Lamar Jackson. I don't care when it is what it is. He's one of these cold weather quarterbacks that plays in Baltimore. Listen, would you ever trust the guy in Miami or the guy at San Diego to go to Baltimore in January and win a game? I don't care what their completion percentage is or what their rankings. Those warm weather dome quarterbacks in cold weather cities do not do as well. And they don't do. That's why Jalen hurts and even Mahomes to an extent. But Tom Brady, Eli Manning, these guys that play in Coldwell, Lamar Jackson, Lamar Jackson is must see tv. Fellas. Nobody ever rates the watchability of quarterbacks. And I can that guy any time of the week. Alan, I'm just going to close with this. Who do you take? Dennis Rodman or Draymond Green? And I'll give you the precursor of both of those guys. The guy who was in those guys before they came into the league was a guy named Paul Silas. So you went from Paul Silas to Dennis Rodman to Draymond Green. But, Allen, who would you take as of now, Draymond Green or Dennis Rodman? I'll hang up and listen to you answer. Thanks, Alan.

[Alan]

I am taking Rodman because Rodman is one of the greatest rebounders in the history of the game. Draymond Green's a playmaker. He's kind of a Swiss Army Life kind of player. Rodman's bigger. His rebounding was insanely good. Like, way better than Draymond's. And his defense, of course, just as good. Like, you got it. You take.

[Don Hahn]

You take in Rodman, you're taking for the rebounding. You said it. That's the answer.

[Alan]

And his defense, too, is he can guard anybody. Now, they're both. They're both a little. They're both the right kind of crazy. I think every team needs a guy like that, you know, like a guy that is, like, on the margins. Right. You don't. You don't want a whole bunch of guys like that. But if you have a good team and then there's one guy, I think you. You survive it, because even that guy looks around and knows. All right, I know every now and then I'm going to go a little crazy, but I got to get back, you know, get back to center as fast as I can, because this is a good team. And I think Draymond has done that. We've seen in the past where he's. He's literally ruined a season because of his antics. And we know Rodman was, you know, also. You had to figure out ways to deal with him. So I'm going, Rob.

[Don Hahn]

No, that's good.

[Alan]

By the way, that Fidrich thing, I'm looking it up. I did not see us.

[Don Hahn]

I.

[Alan]

There's no three to one game. There's. There's a he. I think he beat the Yankees three times that year.

[Don Hahn]

I'll look for a Monday. Do they have the day.

[Alan]

They don't have the day of the date.

[Don Hahn]

It was in the middle of the summer.

[Alan]

It's got to be the first year, right? His rookie year. Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

76.

[Alan]

After that, he fell off the map quick. He won six. Nothing. Complete game.

[Don Hahn]

That was probably.

[Alan]

It was that the one that was in September?

[Don Hahn]

Well. Well, click on it. Click on. Click on the first game of a double date. That couldn't have been that then.

[Alan]

No. September 12th.

[Don Hahn]

Does it give the day?

[Alan]

76. September 12th. But no, no day of the week.

[Don Hahn]

That had to be earlier than that.

[Alan]

It's a day game, by the way.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, because it was a Sunday.

[Alan]

No, that was a Sunday. Okay, it says Sunday here. All right, so there's that one. And because I'm looking at his career stuff, he really just like as a one, literally a one hit wonder.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, yeah, his career fizzled out.

[Alan]

Let's see. This is why you're doing that.

[Don Hahn]

The other one was. Was Fernando Valenzuela in 81. Yeah, that was the other one. Where everybody just couldn't wait to see him. And at least he came to Shea because he was a National League guy. So that was a big deal.

[Alan]

This game was a Tuesday. So that's not it. So there's only one more game and that's this one. He said three one. This is five one. June 28th. That's got to be. Yeah. Monday, June 28th, 8:40 start. Tiger Stadium got 840.

[Don Hahn]

But Tiger Stadium.

[Alan]

Tiger Stadium.

[Don Hahn]

Because I thought I remember Yankee Stadium.

[Alan]

No, this is. It's a Monday. This is the only Monday game.

[Don Hahn]

That must be it.

[Alan]

So Detroit scored two in the first and really like kind of were in control. They were up 3 1. They scored two more in the eighth to make it five. So he pitched. Fidgets. Come here. Break. Where's the pitching stats? There it is. He pitched the full game, nine innings. I don't think they give you how many pitches he threw.

[Don Hahn]

No, they don't. They don't do that on IMDb.

[Alan]

One run, seven hits.

[Don Hahn]

Baseball reference.

[Alan]

Two strikeouts. That's it. The one run he gave up was a home run. The Yankee pitcher. That was Ken Holzman. But yeah, like that. He gave up one run and it was a home run by Elrod Hendricks.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

That's going back a long, long way.

[Unknown]

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[Alan]

Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2020 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Rich Samini]

Now I was looking for fun ways.

[Alan]

To tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Unknown]

Of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com thanks for listening to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Don Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

Game Time is brought to you by televardou Irish Whiskey. Because when it's game time. Yeah, it's Charlie time. It's Tolly time. Coverage of the MLB All Star Game follows us right here on 880 at 7:00'. Clock. And that's it. Tullimore. Do the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast matured Irish whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore Dew or try the new Tullamore Dew. Honey. During today's action, glasses up to enjoying Tullamore Dew responsibly. 1-800-919-3776. Enn's coming up at the top of the hour, but let's talk to Stu in Flushing. You're on ESPN New York. How are you, Stu?

[Stu]

Hey guys, I'm doing great. How about you?

[Rich Samini]

Good, good.

[Unknown]

Cool.

[Stu]

So I know this is a couple hours late, but you know, so remember when we were talking when you guys were talking about that moment where your wife, girlfriend, etc. Comes in and tries to seduce you off of your sports moment?

[Alan]

Right.

[Stu]

Okay, so harken back to 94 in two months before my wedding. And I am, I'm 35. My fiance is this gorgeous 22 year old Asian American girl and we have been living together. And so it's game seven, minute 32, Rangers lead three to two. And she comes out in a little, little, little Victoria's Secret little thing, okay? Stands in front of the TV and says, come on, let's celebrate. And I look at her and do the only thing a real Ranger fan could do. And I say, move. Well, man, it's game seven.

[Don Hahn]

It's game. Listen, it's game seven, Stu.

[Alan]

I.

[Don Hahn]

Listen, I understand that Alan's got his demons.

[Alan]

Is she not a sports fan? Does she not know what was going on?

[Don Hahn]

She wanted to Know where she stood.

[Alan]

Right.

[Don Hahn]

It's a week before the wedding.

[Alan]

I would let her know. I would know where she stood. Right where she stood.

[Stu]

I let her know a minute and 32 seconds later.

[Alan]

All right, that's how you do it.

[Don Hahn]

But listen, that's a really good example, Stu, of sometimes you have to abstain. I mean, it's game seven Rangers, you know, 54 years without a cup. I mean, what are you gonna do?

[Alan]

But if. If you married her, she knows you. Well, she knows that, but they are not married yet.

[Don Hahn]

Maybe she's testing the water. She wants to see. All right, let's. Let's find out where I stand in the grand scheme of things. But, you know, a 9 and 2 giant team playing a meaningless game in November.

[Alan]

Yeah, that's the part that. That's why I'm. I know I'm not allowed to use cap, but I'm calling cap on that. I know I'm not. I know I was told I can't use it. I'm too old, but I don't care.

[Don Hahn]

And for those who might be curious, his wife is beautiful. Dave's.

[Alan]

Oh.

[Don Hahn]

So, yeah, Sherry is gorgeous. So those things. Well, maybe she's home. No, no, no.

[Alan]

When I saw that video on Twitter, I retweeted it with the clubber language. Hey, woman. Hey, woman. Right. You know, when he starts talking to Talia Shire.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I bet you sit at home and I dreaming you were with a real man. How about I come to your apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man?

[Don Hahn]

Just saying three was good. Four began to lose me a bit. And then five is just.

[Alan]

Four lost you.

[Don Hahn]

It's not.

[Alan]

At the end my career, that moment, that was bad when it got like, okay, now it's no longer like. And then it just completely based on real life.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan]

I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hear more of Don Allen and Peter. Weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Don Hahn]

You've seen the headlines, heard the debates.

[Alan]

Some say the three point ball has.

[Don Hahn]

Created a monotonous rhythm to the game. Has the three pointer ruined basketball? And how did we get here?

[Alan]

The rise of the three point shot can be partially traced to an eccentric.

[Don Hahn]

Kansas genius named Martin Manley, whose story didn't turn out quite the way he imagined.

[Alan]

I decided I wanted to have one of the most organized goodbyes in history, and I think I will be successful.

[Don Hahn]

30 for 30 podcast presents a brand new original series, Chasing basketball heaven, available July 22. Wherever you get your podcasts.