Hour 3: Stubbing Your Toe & Dave Rothenberg

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg: Hour 3 – “Stubbing Your Toe & Dave Rothenberg”

Date: January 5, 2026
Podcast: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg (ESPN New York)
Hosts: Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
Special Guest: Dave Rothenberg

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Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into the state of the New York Giants—focusing on GM Joe Shane’s recent comments, a critical evaluation of the team’s management, draft strategy, and philosophy about “winning versus tanking.” The “stub your toe” analogy (used by Shane) becomes a recurring point of discussion, sparking humor and debate among the hosts and guest Dave Rothenberg. The crew also discusses Giants head coach candidates, what New York needs to become competitive, and the unique pressures and culture surrounding New York sports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rangers' Outdoor Game and Stadium Jokes

• The hosts open lightheartedly, discussing Knicks and Pistons climbing in the NBA, and joke about the undefeated streak of the Rangers in outdoor games.
  • [00:23] “Rangers home for the Mammoth as they’re trying to build some momentum off the Winter Classic win.” – Peter Rosenberg
• Fun with the idea of an outdoor Madison Square Garden, playing in Central or Bryant Park.

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2. Joe Shane’s Press Conference & “Stub Your Toe” Analogy

• Joe Shane, Giants GM, maintains his role and is tasked with hiring a new head coach.

  • [01:34] Joe Shane audio clip: “I’m honored and humbled…to see this process through.”

• Shane lists criteria for the next coach: leadership, football acumen, player development, accountability, and communication.

• Shane on the appeal of the Giants’ job:

  • [03:01] “...I made mistakes. I’m fortunate to have great ownership here where you’re allowed to stub your toe and try to course correct...” – Joe Shane

• Hosts react with humor and exasperation:

  • [03:36] “We’ve all stubbed our toe.” – Peter Rosenberg
  • [04:03] “You know what it felt like? It felt like seven wins in two seasons... My franchise quarterback handed to the Philadelphia Eagles and they won a Super Bowl.” – Peter Rosenberg

• Analogy Spirals Out of Control:
  The crew riffs on how bad “stubbing your toe” is as a metaphor for the organization’s woes.

  • [04:24] “Stub your toe? How about massive heart attack?... Rectal bleeding?” – Peter Rosenberg, mocking the analogy

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3. Mistakes in Giants Drafting & Decision-Making

• Detailed review of Giants’ 2022 draft mistakes, focusing on picking Evan Neal over a series of now-successful players.
  • [08:12] “At number five they took Kayvon Thibodeaux… and then… Evan Neal.” – Don Hahn
  • They proceed to list, with mock regret, seven players taken after Neal who would have been better picks.
  • [09:28] “I just named seven straight players better than that guy.” – Don Hahn
• Critique of the current organizational attitude toward “learning from mistakes” rather than demanding accountability.

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4. Fan and PR Perspective – What Should a GM Say?

• Rosenberg and Hahn act out more suitable, humble apologies for media, critical of Shane’s “stub your toe” line.

  • [10:51] “My tenure here has been embarrassed. I am very fortunate that I have ownership that's patient. It’s unacceptable to the Giants, it’s unacceptable to the Giant fans, but more importantly, it’s unacceptable to me...” – Peter Rosenberg, offering the speech he’d rather hear from Shane
  • [11:23] “Because that’s what I wanted to hear. So that’s what I would say.” – Peter Rosenberg

• They lament that front office people who aren’t fans or players often lack authentic connection and communication with the fan base.

  • [12:23] “He’s not coming from a fan perspective... He is coming from an X’s and O’s.” – Peter Rosenberg

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5. Should the Giants Have Tanked? The Draft Pick Debate

• The “tank vs. culture” debate: Is it better for the Giants to win late-season games or to lose and gain a higher pick?
  • [16:17] “James Winston would have beat the Raiders…” – Alan Hahn, joking about the logistics of “tanking”
• Sensitivity around owner John Mara’s health and desire to win, which the hosts agree precludes intentional losing.
  • [17:08] “You couldn’t do it because you don’t know if that’s... you don’t know what that game is to him.” – Don Hahn
• The emotional and practical divide: Organizational logic (trade value of higher pick) vs. the emotional respect for ailing ownership.

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6. The Great Giants Draft Debate with Dave Rothenberg

• Rothenberg calls in to explain his agony at the Giants’ recent “meaningless” wins, costing them top draft selections.
  • [27:19] “I'm just sick about the Giants winning both... Winding up with...”
  • [28:11] “If I get more of those guys, I’d prefer to get more of those guys.” – Dave Rothenberg (on trading down for more picks)
• Rosenberg counters that the draft is a “crapshoot” and it’s not clear how much value a higher pick really brings.
  • [28:29] “It’s still a crapshoot... for you to be so annoyed about it when you know how up in the air the whole thing is just seems to be folly to me.” – Peter Rosenberg

Notable Quotes:

• [34:24] “You should be sick about the situation that they’re in... having high picks doesn’t solve it if you’re completely incompetent.” – Peter Rosenberg
• [30:41] “I think Joe Shane is back, because of the health situation with John.” – Peter Rosenberg

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7. Ownership, Stability, & Giants Culture

• Extended riff on John Mara’s health, legacy, and his impact on the franchise’s present decisions.
  • [32:25] “When you see him get the game ball, how happy he was to beat the Dallas Cowboys... don’t you gotta go beat the Cowboys?” – Peter Rosenberg

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8. Head Coach Options & The “Retread” vs. “Rising Star” Debate

• Deep dive on candidates for the Giants’ next head coach:
  • Kevin Stefanski (Cleveland Browns): Pros and cons, “coach of the year” credentials vs. in-game management blunders.
    • [36:30] “Does that guy go to the top of your list?... It’s an achievement, right?” – Don Hahn
    • [37:58] “The fact that Stefanski was coach of the year two times with Cleveland almost means you should go directly to the hall of fame because it’s such a pathetic franchise.” – Dave Rothenberg
  • Jesse Minter and Clint Kubiak (younger, less experienced): Are they risks New York should take?
• Debate over trusting “retreads” vs. betting on young coordinators, especially with a young QB and the high-pressure NY market.
  • [48:49] “You have a quarterback that’s learning how to be the CEO of a team and you’re going to have a head coach that’s learning how to be a head coach all at the same time. No, thank you. In New York.” – Peter Rosenberg

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9. Jets/Culture & Coaching Carousel

• Side discussion on Jets’ management and “the curse of Woody Johnson,” the difficulties of being a head coach in New York for either franchise.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:24] Peter Rosenberg, on the “stub your toe” analogy: “Stub your toe? How about massive heart attack? How about hemorrhaging from the eyes? What else could we come up with? Rectal bleeding...”
• [09:28] Don Hahn: “I just named seven straight players better than that guy [Evan Neal].”
• [10:51] Peter Rosenberg, what the GM should say: “My tenure here has been embarrassed. I am very fortunate that I have ownership that’s patient. It’s unacceptable to the Giants. It’s unacceptable to the Giant fans. But more importantly, it’s unacceptable to me. By the grace of God, I’ve been given a second chance here. I’m gonna make good on it. And if not, I know I’m gonna get shown the door...”
• [34:24] Peter Rosenberg: “You should be sick about the situation that they’re in, and I can tell you having high picks doesn’t solve it if you’re completely incompetent.”
• [37:58] Dave Rothenberg: “The fact that Stefanski was coach of the year two times with Cleveland almost means you should go directly to the hall of fame because it’s such a pathetic franchise.”
• [48:49] Peter Rosenberg: “You have a quarterback that’s learning how to be the CEO of a team and you’re going to have a head coach that’s learning how to be a head coach all at the same time. No, thank you. In New York.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34–03:46] Joe Shane’s “stub your toe” comments and press conference reaction
• [04:24–05:56] Humorous debate on the toe analogy and what real Giants suffering “feels like”
• [07:55–09:34] Giants’ draft history autopsy: Evan Neal vs. the field
• [10:51–11:23] What GMs should say—Rosenberg’s impromptu speech
• [16:57–18:27] Should the Giants have tanked for a better pick? Mara’s influence and emotion
• [27:19–36:42] Dave Rothenberg segment: pain of being a Giant fan, draft logic vs. emotion, arguments over tanking and hope
• [36:30–40:47] Giants head coach candidates: Stefanski, Minter, Kubiak, and team philosophy
• [48:49–49:34] Pitfalls of hiring young, unproven coaches in New York

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Concluding Thoughts

This hour weaves humor, exasperation, and authenticity as the hosts and guest grapple with the never-ending cycle of Giants mismanagement, the “culture vs. draft position” paradox, and the uniquely unforgiving cauldron of New York sports. Listeners are treated to insightful retrospectives, irreverent analogies, and pointed debates about leadership, communication, and what sort of future the Giants—and their fans—can hope for.

The show closes with the sense that while hope springs eternal at the start of each NFL offseason, New York’s football culture makes every decision, win or loss, a referendum on the soul of the franchise.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Don Hahn]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at three on eight eighty ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers 501.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of the big city. Don on in Rosenberg with you. Little six thirty that it's the Knicks and Pistons. No joke. Knicks, Pistons, one and two in the conference.

[Don Hahn]

Now this is important.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We've turned the calendar over to 2026, so we'll get into that in a little bit. Rangers home for the Mammoth as they're trying to build some momentum off of the Winter Classic win. Just take the roof off.

[Don Hahn]

They'll win that game, too.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was seeing so many like memes and AI of what the Garden would look like without a roof, like a retractable dome kind of situation, because they are undefeated. Do you realize that's the first outdoor game? I'm not counting the Ranger Kings game from the early 90s when they had the locusts and everything.

[Don Hahn]

That was cool.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But in any regular season outdoor game, I was at all Citizens Bank.

[Alan Hahn]

Wow.

[Peter Rosenberg]

MetLife, Citi Field, Yankee Stadium. So that was the first one I was not at. But they've won them all. They are undefeated in outdoor games, which is pretty awesome.

[Don Hahn]

Play it Central Park. Why not?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, how about Bryant Park?

[Don Hahn]

Bryant Park. Beautiful rink.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Teams have practiced at Bryant park pretty good. It's a thing.

[Don Hahn]

And at Central park, too.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Also a thing. Joe Shane is back as general manager of the Giants. We have not heard anything about a contract extension, but he is going to lead the search for a new head coach. And he spoke to the media a little while ago today. And Joe Shane on staying.

[Joe Shane]

Good afternoon, everybody. Start off by saying I'm honored and humbled that John Mayer and Steve Tisch would allow me to see this process through.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, great.

[Don Hahn]

Just keep going.

[Alan Hahn]

Welcome aboard, pal.

[Don Hahn]

This is everybody. Buckle up.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We always love the message to the.

[Joe Shane]

Fans, to our fans. You know, I understand, you know, the wins haven't been what the expectation is. And, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be tasked with getting the organization and the franchise back where it belongs. And that's the goal as we move forward.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay, so far. So.

[Don Hahn]

Yep.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, I wouldn't say so far.

[Alan Hahn]

So.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not so far.

[Alan Hahn]

So far.

[Don Hahn]

This is very meh. It's very meh.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, how about the criteria for the next head coach?

[Joe Shane]

There's several criteria that we're going to look for. Leadership being an important element, you know, in the head coaching world. You know, football acumen will be important. Player development is very important. Having a plan for player development, we have a young quarterback. You know, it's going to be important that there's a plan in terms of Jackson's development, holding people accountable, communication. There's a lot that goes into the head coach that, you know, can fall under that leadership element. But those are some of the characteristics that we're going to be looking for in the next head coach. We're going to cast a wide net, and there's no directive that it has to be an offensive guy or defensive guy or special teams or college or whatever it may be, having head coaching experience previously. We're going to try to find or we are going to find, you know, the best leader for the franchise.

[Don Hahn]

Okay, here it comes, Don. Here it comes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Why is the Giant job so attractive?

[Joe Shane]

For me, it's, you know, early on, I made mistakes. I'm fortunate to have great ownership here where you're allowed to stub your toe and try to course correct. And over the last couple years, we've been able to add a franchise quarterback. You've been able to add up, you know, number one receiver in Malik, neighbors who, again, I'm looking forward to getting him back. And there are, you know, the defensive line, the pass rushers. There's pieces in place that also make this an attractive job. So looking at where we're going, where the build is, what the plan is, moving forward and seeing the vision through is why I think that's the case.

[Don Hahn]

Now I stub your toe, dog. Now you could stub your toe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We've all stubbed our toe.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, sure.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Matter of fact, I hate it. Before I left for Toronto. The day before, the day I left for Toronto, Step out of the shower that I have stepped out of for the 19 years I've been in this house and stubbed my toe. Mm. I'll show it to you. It's black and blue. It was bleeding under the nail.

[Alan Hahn]

I've had a stain under my big toenail for months.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I went, ow, that hurt.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know what it felt like? It felt like seven wins in two seasons. That's what it felt like. Honey, you okay? My toes throbbing. It feels like my team won four games this year and won three games the year before. My franchise quarterback handed to the Philadelphia Eagles and they won a Super Bowl.

[Alan Hahn]

Ow, my toe is killing me.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Stub your toe. How about massive heart attack? How about hemorrhaging from the eyes? What else could we come up with? Rectal bleeding, right? That's three that I just came up with. So massive heart at the widowmaker the bat. Hemorrhage from the eyes, rectal bleeding. What other things do they give you when.

[Alan Hahn]

How about the condition on his hot dog fingers?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, the hot dog fingers.

[Alan Hahn]

You don't know that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wolf babies.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, God.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen, how would Peter feel if Maya was a wolf?

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All of a sudden, that's five that I came up with that. If I were Joe Shane, I'd compare his tenure to stub my toe. Please.

[Alan Hahn]

For a Super Bowl, I'd cut my toe off. Right? Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Really? Mm, really.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, listen, we've all stubbed our toe. You know, you hate stubbing your toe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know, even oily discharge doesn't do it. Oily discharge doesn't do it. So can you imagine stubbing your toe?

[Alan Hahn]

Well, how about this? What about, I stubbed my toe the other day and it hurt immensely bad. What if it was like the feeling of stubbing your toe constantly? Like, you know, multiple times a day, always.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, because at some point it goes from, I stubbed my toe to I broke my toe. They're amputating my toe. Right. Like, if you're stuck stubbing your toe every single time. There is no toe. At some point. You're not describing it as I'm stubbing my toe.

[Alan Hahn]

No, I've got a problem.

[Peter Rosenberg]

At some point, you're gonna talk about your toe in the past tense.

[Alan Hahn]

That's right. Remember toe?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I have nine toes now. What happened to the other toe? I stubbed it 50 straight days.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

And now it's gone.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Peeing in the middle of the night. I stubbed my toe and now it's not there anymore.

[Don Hahn]

But Don. Well, no, but stub the toe. But he works for an organization that lets you do that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, lets you.

[Don Hahn]

And lets you correct yourself and learn from it. It's great, isn't it?

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's.

[Don Hahn]

We're developing a general manager, and you're living through the early mistakes. It's like a quarterback, you know, early on, he's going to throw interceptions. He's going to do the, you know, Deontay Banks. He's going to do the Evan Neil. You know, you're going to do these things. And Evan Neal, instead of, you know, Garrett Wilson or Chris Olave or, you know, somebody like that, that might have helped you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You picked Evan Neal. Don't worry. You're going to make mistakes.

[Don Hahn]

But you already had a left tackle, didn't you?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You got.

[Don Hahn]

You had one.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're going to make an omelet, you're going to crack a few. Make a mistake. You're going to make a Evan Neal.

[Don Hahn]

That's all right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Thibodeau Banks. There's a lot of eggs, Banks.

[Don Hahn]

A big one.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There's a lot of eggshells in that omelet.

[Don Hahn]

You're going to let Saquon go?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Just get him out of the way, all right? Get the mistakes out of the way.

[Alan Hahn]

Ah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I thought you were gonna say the phrase in sports that, like, makes me sick.

[Alan Hahn]

Mm.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The. Trust the process. Like, Joe, just trust the process. This is what you do. This is what ha. Oh, George Young. Believe me, he made mistakes like this, too. No, no, he didn't. No. Ernie. Oh, no. Ernie. Remember that time?

[Don Hahn]

Tons of mistakes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wait, when did that time?

[Don Hahn]

Or no, remember when he made a mistake and he should have drafted.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, no. Do you want me to read if you know Gettleman here? Oh, you know what I got. I got two examples for Gettleman.

[Don Hahn]

I'm going to do this.

[Peter Rosenberg]

McCagnon, if you want to go to the other side of the stadium, I'm.

[Don Hahn]

Going to do this for you. Do it for me, because this is the example of stubbing your toe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay?

[Don Hahn]

Okay. In the year, The Giants had two top 10 picks.

[Peter Rosenberg]

20, 22, I guess it was five and seven, if I'm not mistaken.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, it was 20, 22. It was. No, it was five and seven. Correct at a number we know. At the number five pick they took. Cave on Thibodeau.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's right. Stud.

[Don Hahn]

Stud.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Remember that game against Washington?

[Alan Hahn]

Remember which one? Oh, yes.

[Dave Rothenberg]

He won.

[Don Hahn]

Big stud. Big stud at Oregon.

[Alan Hahn]

I remember.

[Don Hahn]

And then with the seventh pick, two picks later, seven.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

They said, let's get another offensive lineman.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Alan Hahn]

This one had to be good, though.

[Don Hahn]

Evan Neal. Oh, now after.

[Alan Hahn]

Who is that?

[Don Hahn]

Seven picks, all seven picks that came after Evan Neal. Would you like to hear them?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No.

[Don Hahn]

Positions that the Giants should certainly could not go ahead. I don't think Drake London probably had no use for that guy. Charles Cross with the Seattle.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, Howard Cross. He was good. Oh, no, Charles.

[Don Hahn]

Charles Cross, who just got an extension now with Seattle.

[Alan Hahn]

So he's good.

[Don Hahn]

Garrett Wilson.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Boom.

[Don Hahn]

Chris Olave.

[Alan Hahn]

These are all players who it's worked out.

[Don Hahn]

Jameson Williams, who was injured.

[Alan Hahn]

No, he's good, though.

[Don Hahn]

But you know he's good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How about.

[Don Hahn]

I don't know. I'm not sure you would have needed this guy, though. Jordan Davis probably didn't need him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Boo. Is sorry.

[Don Hahn]

And then.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Oh.

[Don Hahn]

How about a position of need right now?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Don Hahn]

Kyle Hamilton, one of the best safeties in the game.

[Alan Hahn]

You're saying that Would be useful for them.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, I'm not taking a safety at seven, but I get your point.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, he would have taken over. Have it, Neil.

[Don Hahn]

I'm sorry.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen, I'm sorry.

[Don Hahn]

I just named seven straight players better than that guy.

[Alan Hahn]

Everyone is playing.

[Don Hahn]

And I could argue that as much as you might love Kevon Thibodeau, I named seven straight players that might have been better than him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right now they have more useful to you than him. Hey, Thibodeau's Lawrence Taylor compared to Evan Neal.

[Don Hahn]

And I like Joe Shea, but I don't like the stub your toe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Here's the thing.

[Don Hahn]

Thankfully, this organization lets me make mistakes on the job.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Don't say stub your toe. But that's what he said.

[Don Hahn]

That's one where I, as a. I always say this as the PR guy facepalm. That's a PR guy facepalm moment where the minute he says, you're on the side, nobody sees you. He's at the podium, you're behind the curtain. He says, stub your toe. And you go, jesus. Like, what now? Like what? How are they going to spin?

[Peter Rosenberg]

There's. I'm being honest. I'm not a PR guy, but I work with a lot of them.

[Don Hahn]

Well, we know them well.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Some of the best ones we've seen them face. Palm Pete Albeitz is amazing with the Devils and working with the Rangers all those years. Knicks, like Pat Hanlon is an angel for the Giants, but he's not as in tune anymore with the Giants. But he was gold standard as far as PR directors, and I've had a chance to work with all of them. If I were a PR director, here's what I would tell Joe Shane to say. Go ahead. Or here's what I would say if I were Joe Shane.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

My tenure here has been embarrassed. I am very fortunate that I have ownership. That's patient. It's unacceptable to the Giants. It's unacceptable to the Giant fans. But more importantly, it's unacceptable to me. By the grace of God, I've been given a second chance here. I'm gonna make good on it. And if not, I know I'm gonna get shown the door. Let's get to work. Questions.

[Don Hahn]

That's it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How hard is that?

[Don Hahn]

This is so simple.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That just came to me.

[Don Hahn]

So simple.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, I didn't.

[Alan Hahn]

You just came up with that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, I just came up with that.

[Don Hahn]

So simple.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because that's what I wanted to hear. So that's what I would say.

[Don Hahn]

I am fortunate that this organization still believes in Me and I owe it to them and you as a fan base to be better. And we will be, because that's it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because here's the thing, all right, he brought up stub your toe, which tells me you're tone deaf. You don't get it. Because if you got it. And the reason I get it is because I'm a Giant fan, I'm suffering with it. Is that's a. That's a poor analogy to just go subhuman with it. Right? So. And that way the fans will be like, yeah, yeah, you have been terrible and you are blessed to be back. But unfortunately, and I hate to go there, but this is the analytic world we live in. If that's a former player, like, that's Ozzy Newsom when he was the GM of the Ravens, he would know what to say. Of course, you know, if that was somebody that played, if that was somebody that was more involved. Joe Shane's a guy like all these guys, they're.

[Don Hahn]

He's a Brandon guy, right? Like, that's what he is. He's from that school. And they're. They're very analytical.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They're very much just, you know, so he's not going to come up with the right analogy because he's not coming from a fan perspective. He's not coming from a player perspective. He is coming from an X's and O's. And when the numbers don't jive and when the analytics don't live up to the expectations, that's the way they look at it. It's like, hey, stubbed my toe, said it was going to work 65% of the time, taking Evan Neal, the numbers say was the right pick. Unfortunately, it wasn't the right pick. What are you going to do? Where I think somebody that's more invested into the actual thing. Football of it, I'd be like, that's. That's a rough pick.

[Don Hahn]

So I think we can now confirm after the. The checklist he gave us of the type of head coach he's looking for or the organization's looking for, that he'll be part of finding strong leader.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Don Hahn]

Is to. Should be the very top of the. It wasn't the first thing he mentioned. I mean, you know, again, football acumen.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Acumen. I don't.

[Don Hahn]

Do you need to mention that you probably don't. It's not necessary to mention.

[Alan Hahn]

You'd hope there'd be football acumen.

[Don Hahn]

You would think that anybody that would be a candidate for this job would.

[Alan Hahn]

Have football acumen at least some sure.

[Don Hahn]

But strong leader is definitely something that is needed because Brian Dabel had football acumen, am I right? Everybody didn't like him, but we all can say that he had football acumen but he was not a strong leader. He played favorites. He kind of was, you know, the type of guy that was. Would now we're learning, would look the other way if somebody was bending the rules. Not really a good. Not really good at holding up a standard. Right. And so that also tells you though that Joe Shane is basically admitting I am not the leader of this organization. Whoever we hire as coach will be the leader. So I just wanted to re. Reemphasize that Joe Shane is not in charge. He is not the leader of the organization. He is helping them find a coach and that's what that's his. And once they do the coach, whoever they hire is going to be that face. That's what I firmly believe. What's going to happen here? And then he will go back to the background, go back to the numbers and the analytics and his scouting setup that he has created there that they love and they will dive back into the draft and everything else that needs to be done with a pick that could have been number one, but they didn't want that. They chose to win. They chose to not worry about getting the number one pick and what kind of value you're going to get there. So this is their choice.

[Alan Hahn]

Don, take a moment. If I can see him.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Hold on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Breathe. How I would like. Like the Dave Rothenbergs and the Rick DiPietros and even Michael K today. Explain to me how should the Giants have handled the last two games like the jets did? Well, the Jets.

[Alan Hahn]

No one can lose like the Jets.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The jets don't. The Giants don't have a quarterback, even Russell Wilson, as bad as what they had. But let me just ask you, you played basketball not in the NBA but you played competitive. All right, I played competitively before I got, you know, cut from college or whatever. You can't bench everybody. All right. Some veterans are going to have to play in that game. Can you look at a Dexter Lawrence, can you look at any of those offensive linemen and tell them against the Dallas Cowboys at home in the last game of the season, we're going to start Russell Wilson now if it's preparing for the playoffs, they'll get it. But I think the league would investigate. Honestly, the league would have investigated if your third string quarterback started the last game of the season. Tell me I'm wrong.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't know I don't know if they would investigate, but I see why they would.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But Jameis Winston, that's different. But you know what? Jameis Winston could have done the exact same thing Dart did yesterday against the Cowboys.

[Alan Hahn]

I think they would have.

[Don Hahn]

He could have messed around and won the game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

James Winston would have beat the Raiders. Yeah.

[Alan Hahn]

I think he would have won both games.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So you wanted to start Russell Wilson the last two games of the season. You don't think the league would make a phone call?

[Don Hahn]

Don, your answer. It's worth asking your answer to those who were criticized. And I only did this because I just. I'm poking the bear right now because it's fun. You're the bear. Yeah. You are the bear, by the way.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And he's the poke.

[Alan Hahn]

And I, I, you know, it's better to be the. Some. Some prefer poker and some enjoy.

[Don Hahn]

Pretty good at poking. It might be the only thing I do well. So at least four times that we know. So. What we saw after the game with the game ball.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

Tells you why they could not lose.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They couldn't do it.

[Don Hahn]

They could not take.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not do it.

[Don Hahn]

With where John Mara is right now, as. And I don't want to put a Cast a dark, you know, thing on this, but I do want everybody to understand the situation and how if you're anyone involved in that organization and you know how much it means to John Mara, you couldn't do that because you don't know if that's.

[Alan Hahn]

And I'm going to agree with Don, too.

[Don Hahn]

You don't know what that game is to him.

[Alan Hahn]

No, you don't. And even though I was like, I was prodding Dave yesterday, I was during. During the game, I'm texting Dave and I'm like, I'm like, God, your team, they don't even know when to lose. Right. And I'm just stirring the pot. And I'm like, you know, Don, Don loves stuff like this. And he's like, there's something wrong with him. You know, like, he's. And, And I'm just having fun trying to stir everybody up. The truth is, unless you thought, I think the only year, Don, when you really would have a case to go, you have to find a way to lose is if it's the difference between getting the organizational quarterback or not. Like, if there's literally, if you went. The quarterback we all dream of is sitting there.

[Don Hahn]

That's fair.

[Alan Hahn]

And we're. I think there's an argument to be made for you do everything in your power to at Least make it happen. That was not the case yesterday. Well, even I felt like you. I want. I enjoy. Can I just be clear? Commanders hurt themselves. I loved seeing us beat the Eagles. We have these rivalry games to end the year. I like beating.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I like beating down.

[Alan Hahn]

I like being. You like beating down. It's been five years.

[Don Hahn]

That's the best way, though, to. If you want to try to curb tanking, you put those games at the.

[Peter Rosenberg]

End of the year.

[Don Hahn]

So they. But I'm just saying in this situation with John Meadow, where he is, can't do it. You can't purposely lose. Like, there's just something that doesn't feel right about. Although it makes sense to lose.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Especially when John said he'd fire anybody that tanked.

[Don Hahn]

So, you know, there you go.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That he doesn't want it. But I'm trying to get Anthony or Jacob to call Dave Rothenberg up. The issue last year was how dare they beat Indianapolis.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right. Meaningless game. All of a sudden you have 400 yards worth of passing and you win a game. Kick return, all that and it cost him the first overall pick. So are you telling me, Dave Rothenberg, that you'd rather have Cam Ward than Jackson Dart? Because that's what you have done. You would have picked Dan Ward. Yeah. So you got mad they didn't lose that game, but you might be better off because Jackson Dart might end up.

[Alan Hahn]

Being the better quarterback.

[Peter Rosenberg]

My point is it's a crapshoot, people. And if you really think there's a team out there that was a mortgage their whole future to get Mendoza with the first overall pick, stop yourself. Okay, yeah, I'd rather lose two. I get it. You'd rather have the first overall pick. Well, the value is moaning groan when we have no damn idea who's going to come out of this draft.

[Don Hahn]

Stop it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A dying man wants a win. If that's the case, get him a damn win. How about that?

[Don Hahn]

The number one pick had value. Not because you need a quarterback, because someone else does, but. And you could have traded it for multiple picks because you have so many holes in your roster to fill and you were hoping that you could get some draft capital and make some things happen in this draft that could. You could look back on and say that's the draft where everything turned right. Yeah. That's why I understand Dave's side of it.

[Alan Hahn]

I get it.

[Don Hahn]

But the emotional side of it, from inside the organization, for what we're just talking about with the owner, with John Mara, that's the logical. When people say how could they win? Why would they do that? This is why. And the fact that you don't understand it, you're not supposed to because you don't have an emotional involvement to it the way those inside the organization do.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But to flip out. I understand the logic.

[Alan Hahn]

I get it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And would I rather have the first overall pick? Of course I would.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I'm telling you, I don't think there was a way for them to lose against the Raiders and the Cowboys.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, the second Dax out of the game, we're not having a. Dude, what.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Are you going to do?

[Alan Hahn]

What are you going to do? That was not a functional. Milton is not a functional NFL quarterback. Sorry, I saw a couple of those yesterday. Can you believe. I couldn't believe who Philly and Dallas had playing? Yeah, like I honestly, I know you guys may laugh because my team's playing Josh Johnson. You guys are more Josh Johnson. I've seen him play. I know he can complete passes. It's crazy. Yeah, you had to win that game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And Clowney was going off because he, you know, he's a resurgence now at 32 and he's all over the place. And Jackson Dart completed a couple of third down passes for touchdowns. I see value in that. But watching John Mara get the game ball, I just said to myself, you.

[Alan Hahn]

Know what that means more than anything else?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think that you know and I know I get killed and they even bring me up by name on the morning show about the culture. Listen, does that win, did that win against Indianapolis change the culture? No. Will the win against the Cowboys change the culture? No. But could it add some confidence to Jackson Dart could help him. Does it make the organization feel good that John Mara was happy for three seconds and then, and then also the complete crap shoot that the draft ends up being the best damn quarterback of football was taken 10th. The Super bowl champion quarterback of Philadelphia was taken in the second round. Where was Lamar Jackson taken last? First round.

[Alan Hahn]

So come on man, now I'm with you 100%. And also Jackson dark guys, the last couple, the last month we've kind of. More people have been coming to my side of like I'd like to see a little more. I'd like to see a little more growth post post the head coach change. A lot of people like, yeah, I'd like to see more. You're telling me that second half yesterday wasn't big for Dart. That was a useful second half. It started off looking very, it was a very wonky start for Jackson Dart. It was great to see him sort of find his way in that game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I really do believe that there are a lot of people that just completely sold on Jackson Dart. I'm leaning that way. I want to see everything that I can.

[Alan Hahn]

I'm sorry, it's foolish. If you are to the point where you think you literally know you have the future and you didn't need to, you're out of your mind. No, there's more to be said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

There's a lot, a lot there.

[Don Hahn]

But we need a little Reps matter too. Reps, reps matter. Never mind. Show me something. All that stuff reps matter add up.

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don Hahn]

For listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter Rosenberg]

One of my favorite songs of all time and also was on the top five where the COVID is better than the original.

[Don Hahn]

This is a cover?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, it was a Bruce Springsteen song.

[Don Hahn]

I keep forgetting that story. You're right. Yeah. I mean, you're right every time he says it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't remember.

[Don Hahn]

I never remember that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But it's a, it's a great song. And speaking of great, a great host and you can hear him with Rick DiPietro 6 to 10am Monday through Friday here on ESPN New York is Dave Rothenberg, who I've said for years, guys, and I've been made fun of it, quite frankly by Michael and Peter, pound for pound, the best talk show host we have at this radio station.

[Don Hahn]

Right. Pound for pound.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Pound for pound.

[Don Hahn]

You know, he's a lot lighter now.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, but, but see, that's where Michael would always go that I wasn't.

[Alan Hahn]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Pound for pound.

[Don Hahn]

What made you think pound?

[Alan Hahn]

Well, no, it doesn't make sense. The reason I make a lot on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

His makes perfect sense.

[Alan Hahn]

It only makes sense in boxing because their size is different.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Right.

[Alan Hahn]

It doesn't make sense in.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, it does make sense because listen, all right, am I stretching it a little bit?

[Alan Hahn]

Sure.

[Don Hahn]

A little bit.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I'm saying there's a lot of different skill sets. We've got former players here. We've got guys that have different ways that they go about it. And I say, you know, they take it all the different formulas. The guy that I take to do whatever is Dave.

[Alan Hahn]

And by the way, I don't disagree with it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I just came up with another analogy. Pound for pound, Mike for Mike felt.

[Don Hahn]

Like that was a shot. That's all.

[Alan Hahn]

We don't have time. We can't deal with Alan.

[Don Hahn]

All we have is time.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let's, let's talk to the specially considered. He dialed up on the Comrex. We appreciate that. He's Dave Rosenberg joining us here on Don Hanna. Rosenberg, how are you, dear?

[Dave Rothenberg]

I'M terrible. I know we are in polar opposite sides of this, and I don't want to really get confrontational because I do love you. I love all you guys. But I'm just sick about the Giants winning both.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't. I don't.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Winding up with.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't. I get it. I want the first pick, too, but I don't understand why you get so upset about it.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Because I saw a path. Well, I mean, if you have the number one pick.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And there's that there. There's the quarterback. At least one in this draft. Right. We know Mendoza and possibly Dante Moore, maybe. So now you trade from 1 to 2 to 3 to wherever, and then if somebody wants another one, you trade back again. Because what they need is talent. They don't have a ton of talent on this team. Look at the players. Look at. If I told you they need offensive line. Yep. They need receiver. Yep. Could they use guys that can get to the quarterback? Probably. Linebackers, safeties. They need everything. So if I get more of those guys, I'd prefer to get more of those guys.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I have no idea who is going to give you a mint for Mendoza anyway. We have no idea if it'll be Mendoza. Moore might jump up.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Okay. All right, then.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Even better. But we don't know if this is not Trevor Lawrence. That's coming out where everybody and their mother wants him. So.

[Alan Hahn]

But that said, whatever.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Or it's still a crapshoot because we go back to last year. You were apoplectic that they lost to the Colts.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Meant nothing. Meaningless game. Cost them the first overall pick.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yep. And they did it again.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So let me ask you, who would you rather have, Cam Ward or Jackson Dart?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Like it's a flip of the coin. I think dart's been awesome. Now, I tell you what I'd rather have. I'd rather have Abdul Carter and Jackson Dart.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

But.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So thank you.

[Dave Rothenberg]

The Giants didn't feel like that. Don. The Giants tried to move up to get the number one pick. So they won the meaningless game and admitted they were wrong and still tried to belong to Tennessee. Was like, no, you can't have this.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And the guy that's trying to do it could be out of a job in 24 hours. We'll see. But anyway, is my point is that's the kind of crap shoot that it is. Because at the time you're thinking, I can't believe that we beat Indianapolis. And if you had lost Indianapolis, we would have taken Cam Ward. Now maybe Cam Ward turns out to be the next Eli Manning or maybe Cam Ward ends up being a bust. Certainly this year is no way to determine that on a lousy Tennessee team. But you just said you're happy with Abdul Carter, who closed out the season very well. You're happy with Jackson Dart. So if you look at it, being upset beating Indianapolis ended up being for nothing because they might actually be better off. That's my point. I would rather have the first overall pick too. But it's such a crapshoot for you to be so annoyed about it when you know how up in the air the whole thing is. Just seems to be folly to me.

[Dave Rothenberg]

No, it's not. Because Peter, let me ask you would you rather have one or would you rather have five? You have your quarterback. Would you rather be able to trade out of that and move back and get more ammunition for later in the draft or would you rather.

[Alan Hahn]

Okay, I hear if it's if the difference is one. Because I want to be truthful, before.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You came on, I could have had one.

[Alan Hahn]

So if you could have had one, yes, I'd prefer one. For example, Dave, I didn't mind the Commanders beating the Eagles yesterday. We're not vying for one. So I like beating the Eagles. Feels good. But if you're literally talking about you have the chance to get the best player available in the draft, I certainly understand.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We don't know if the Raiders would have beaten the Chiefs had they known.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Then the Giants would add two. But if Dante Moore comes out, I.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Understand the frustration would be that upset about it when we don't know what's going to happen.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And I think Allen can understand that. I hate the Giants now. I hate them. I watch them and I hate them. I don't enjoy watching it. I watch it out of obligation. The Giants being a competent, relevant, capable football team is years ago now and I don't enjoy. The only reason I watch them is because I've loved them since I'm a little kid. Other than that, I want I went off this ride.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Listen, I'm 100% with you. But let me ask you this before we let you.

[Alan Hahn]

I appreciate that. Honest. I really do appreciate that. I was there. Awful, Dave. It's an awful place to be and when you don't feel any hope that it can get better because you don't think the top of the team is gonna be able to figure it out. And in this case, of course they have this awful, unfortunate health situation at the top of the organization which stunts their ability to even take the next step it's an awful place to be.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's why I think Joe Shane is back, because of the health situation with John.

[Alan Hahn]

Wait, you don't think that Dave.

[Don Hahn]

I agree.

[Alan Hahn]

Oh, you agree?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alan Hahn]

They wanted to keep things just the.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Static because John Marek came out last year and at a press conference it said it has to result in wins.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Otherwise we're going to make sweeping changes. It didn't result in wins. And granted, they fired the head coach, but look at the track record of this GM and how many misses he's had.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right. And. But unfortunately, what a difference a year makes because I don't think Jon was in the physical health a year ago that he is in now. And again, I don't know from anything other than what everybody else knows, but just looking at some of the beat writers for the Giants and the attention they gave to John before the game started, you know, the way he looked, getting the game ball, it doesn't feel good. And I know you're, you know, you've talked about John Mara, you know, sending flowers to your funeral, coming to your funeral. Like you wrote a letter to him.

[Dave Rothenberg]

When you were a kid to Wellington.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I wrote a letter to the Mara family. Right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Well, I wrote a letter to Wellington and he responded. And I have a framed letter to Wellington Mara, which is you used to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Joke that if anything ever happened to you, you think that the Giants would at least send flowers if not attend your wake.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Flowers. I think so. But my point. So let me ask you this in all seriousness, all right? John went on record as saying he'd fire anybody the tank, and he wanted to win that game. And that's what kind of got tugged at my heartstrings. Listen, I think both themes could be true. I think he's done a terrible job as owner of this team since his father passed away. The record shows it. All right? But I still think he's a really good man and a great man and I want him to beat this bell. But when you see him get the game ball, how happy he was to beat the Dallas Cowboys. If you're a part of that organization and he tells you, go beat the Cowboys, don't you got to go beat the Cowboys?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, I don't have an issue with the players. Like everyone says, how could you think.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Players, well, the organization, then Joe Shane, just like, he's not going to sit there and go to, John, I know you're really sick, but we need to tank this game to get better picks.

[Alan Hahn]

And John.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, we don't Tank, I want to win.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Then you're in such an awful conundrum, like such a catch 23.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's not really that awful.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I watched the video yesterday. They hand the game ball to John Marin and I mean, you'd have to be a psychotic not to feel some emotion, some like. So that's all I'm saying, man, is that I'm not. I'm not inhumane. But the grand scheme of things, it's not good for the Giants to have won those five ball games.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We don't know. We don't know. I know you'd rather have the first overall, but so many things happened. This whole thing, this whole argument started years ago when I got ripped by Peter and Michael for being happy that Jones threw five touchdown passes against the Redskins beat him in overtime. And I was told that was stupid because I lost out on Chase Young. You know, with Chase Young's a backup in New Orleans now, like. I'm just saying. I get where you're coming from, but it's such a crapshoot. Why do you let it bother you? Why do you let it take up so much of your time? I'm listening to the show this morning. You're apoplectic about it. You should be sick about the situation that they're in.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I'm sick about it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I can tell you having high picks doesn't solve it if you're completely incompetent.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Get things straight here. Get a good coach. Got a quarterback.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let's go.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I'm sick the GM returns. I'm sick that I'm supposed to be excited about a coach in Kevin Stefanski who I might be excited about.

[Alan Hahn]

I'm with you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not sure.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Two awful seasons.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not sure.

[Alan Hahn]

Did you watch. Did you watch, Dave? Did you watch any of the. Probably not, given where you're at, although you're a professional. So. Have you watched any of the Hard Knocks?

[Dave Rothenberg]

No. Not one second.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Dude. They had.

[Alan Hahn]

I'm a few weeks behind, so I was watching a couple of weeks ago, so it's probably. It's before the Giants head into their final four games, right before the buy. Kafka tries to give. Kafka gives, like a little talk to them.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I heard he curses a lot, right?

[Alan Hahn]

All he does is curse.

[Don Hahn]

It's embarrassing.

[Alan Hahn]

In the wrestling business, we would call it going for a cheap pop or cheap heat.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It doesn't get better, by the way.

[Alan Hahn]

All he does when he tries to tell them we're going to go out here and we're Going to win the last four games. It's the most unmotivating. How are you a leader of this group? I'm glad you haven't seen it. I'd be worried about you, Dave. Don't watch it.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's more ammunition to show you how embarrassing this franchise is. I mean, we grew up this team, they were awful. And then George Young took over and they were the toast of the town. I mean, they were so good for so long. And we couldn't wait to run Tom Coughlin out of here. You would give anything to have a guy like that as the head coach of this team.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The entire organization in our lifetime is basically about two people. George Young and Ernie, of coursey. That's it.

[Don Hahn]

Yep.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Now, Ernie didn't win those two Super Bowls. Reeves did. Reese did. But that was obviously with a lot. Of course, he helped build that and Bill Parcells and Tom Copley and the coaches and all that.

[Don Hahn]

Dave.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But none of this happens without those two individuals. They'd still be flying planes over the building, burning season tickets. If Pete Roselle didn't say, hire George Young and then eventually leading to Ernie, of course he. Otherwise, this is a franchise that is as big an embarrassment as the team they share building with.

[Don Hahn]

Now, let me ask a fact, if I can jump in, Dave, and thank you for giving us time.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Of course.

[Don Hahn]

Kevin Stefanski becomes available. Does that guy go to the top of your list? Do you feel like, you know, again, coach, he had two times in Cleveland. That's an achievement, right?

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yes.

[Don Hahn]

And he does come with the. I think you need experience. I know everybody's talking about Jesse Minter, but this is somebody that's. He's early 40s. He's kind of followed Harbaugh from Michigan, doesn't have a ton of experience. I think right now you need somebody that's done the job and done it at a high level. So without knowing what's going to happen in Baltimore, because the Lamar stuff's really interesting coming out of there. Would they even dare to move on from Harbaugh? But without, like going there and, you know, the Tomlin stuff, this guy is available. Would he be at the top of your list?

[Dave Rothenberg]

He would be up there. I almost feel like, I don't know if you guys feel like this, like head coaches are kind of like the quarterbacks being drafted out of school. Like last year, Ben Johnson was the slam dunk. You thought he was going to be great. He turned out that he was great. Labeled the same. I don't feel like that's that same, that same amount of greatness in the coaches this offseason that there was last. So I feel like Minter, I mean, I'd be lying to you if I sat here and told you Minter is going to be great or awful. I don't know. I don't know what, what, what Clint Kubiak is going to be or Shula's grandson is going to be or any of these guys. I mean, the fact that Stefanski was coach of the year two times with Cleveland almost means you should go directly to the hall of Fame because it's such a pathetic franchise.

[Don Hahn]

You name the last Browns head coach to have to be a two time coach of the year.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I would go back to like Paul Brown. I have no idea.

[Don Hahn]

I don't kid you. No, no, not Freddie. Kidding. Come on.

[Alan Hahn]

That's a great idea.

[Don Hahn]

Forest Greg.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Oh God.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Which I had forgotten he was a Browns. I remember he was Bengals. Bengals, yeah. And offensive lineman for the Green Bay Packers. But that goes back a long, long time.

[Dave Rothenberg]

So I mean, to answer your question, and I hate to like, you know, take the fifth here. It's like, I don't know, Alan. I think I like him. I think he's smart. I think to have had success in Cleveland where there's such a disaster of a franchise does mean something. But does it mean that he comes here and he has great success? I'll tell you what, I don't know if you guys feel like this. I need immediate success. All I hear is there's so much talent and it was all on Dable and he blew all these games and they have all these high picks and they're gonna have another top five pick and they have money in free agency. No more one in sevens.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No more week 17.

[Dave Rothenberg]

What does that turn?

[Don Hahn]

I think you're gonna. I actually think there's a better chance of that because of everything that's been said and you know, day well, this all started with him and Wink and it all went downhill because he couldn't get along with Wink. And so like start there and the fact that he. There was a lot that you could put on his shoulders of why things went south, he didn't hold some players accountable, all that stuff. So it could happen. Like you got to look at right now, every year there's always six to seven jobs open. We're at six right now. And who knows what's going to happen with any of the playoff teams. But right now, what would you consider you ranked the Giants job So far as walk me because you got one.

[Dave Rothenberg]

But I don't want to miss anything.

[Don Hahn]

All right. Atlanta, Tennessee, the Giants, Cleveland Raiders and the Cardinals.

[Dave Rothenberg]

1. I think, I think it's the best ahead of Atlanta.

[Don Hahn]

With all that talent in Atlanta.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I think Atlanta is an attractive.

[Don Hahn]

You just don't know the quarterback.

[Dave Rothenberg]

You don't. You don't trust the quarterback. I'd rather have Jackson dart than Michael Penix. I feel confident in saying that.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah. Because now his both knees are bad. But if you think about it, that division, that owner might be a little bit easier of a road. Right.

[Dave Rothenberg]

And also it's Atlanta and it's not New York. Right. So certainly. But I think when you. You look. I mean, and there's something to be said and Rick always argues. And then we had Renan on today. He's like, it's still the Giants, like, as disastrous as they have been. It's still one of the creme de la creme jobs in the National Football League. And it's still working for a great ownership group, which the fan base might not look at and say is a great ownership group. But people around the league look at the patience that the Giants ownership group works with and you know you're going to get a. Too fair of a shake with some of these guys. So I still think it's the Giants one with Atlanta is a very close.

[Don Hahn]

So then you should get the best candidate available. So what I'm thinking. That's why I asked, I think.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But.

[Dave Rothenberg]

But again, it goes back to who's the best candidate.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not sure.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because you don't have that Ben Johnson from last year where you're like, this guy's going to be great and we'll see how good he actually is. Right. They can lose their first playoff game and then. Then who knows what happens. We thought they had the guy in Dable when they make the playoffs, win a playoff game, and then he wins coach of the year. And it went downhill from there. So listen, I just don't want you to fret over it, that's all. And I don't want this to be an issue between me and you.

[Dave Rothenberg]

That's never going to be an issue. You can have a take, which I strongly disagree with. It doesn't mean it's going to be an issue between us.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Here's the thing. It's not really that we disagree. It's just I don't think he should get all caught up in it and get crazy about it, man.

[Alan Hahn]

It's Dave Rothenberg.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I mean, this Is who I am.

[Alan Hahn]

You want me to play the audio to help you remind you who this guy is? Do you want to see the manor?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Do you remember that, Don?

[Peter Rosenberg]

How can I forget? But really, you'd call a doctor if I said I don't remember that?

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, exactly.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'd have to get an exam.

[Dave Rothenberg]

Yeah. Are you all right, Don? You sound like you're unwell.

[Don Hahn]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Under the weather.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah, he wasn't feeling good to start the show, and so I said, you know, we have a big wrestler, Seth Rollins, coming on at 3:30. I'll take the lead, Don. Don't you worry about it. He said, sure, sounds good. I sat down in Don's chair. He came in the room, saw me in the chair. Yeah, I changed my mind. Move over, kid. Really got me up and out.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, yeah. Like a father seeing his son sitting in his Lazy Boy.

[Alan Hahn]

Exactly.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know what?

[Alan Hahn]

You know what? Give me the remote.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Nah, just a little under the weather. Two games in a row, so I think I'll be all right. If not, then we'll see. All right.

[Alan Hahn]

I hope you're all right, though.

[Dave Rothenberg]

I hope you're right.

[Don Hahn]

I'll take him out back.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right.

[Alan Hahn]

Lay him down.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Call it Old Yeller.

[Alan Hahn]

By the way, what a perfect nickname for you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Old Yellow.

[Alan Hahn]

Old Yeller.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, it's perfect. Love you, Dave.

[Alan Hahn]

Old Yellow. Bye, Dave. Well, listen, he looks. He. No, the whitey part is the gray hair, which is the old.

[Don Hahn]

Come on.

[Alan Hahn]

He's not actually old, but he is a yellow, right?

[Dave Rothenberg]

It's.

[Don Hahn]

It's a yeller.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes. Old Yeller. Get it. Back in an hour. Bow her back.

[Alan Hahn]

Don't start doing it, please. I get lost every time.

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[Don Hahn]

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[Alan Hahn]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Alan Hahn]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, let's hear from you. 1-800-919376.

[Alan Hahn]

I really don't think about it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Let's go to Luca in SoHo. You're on ESPN New York. What's up, Luca? Hey. Hey, guys.

[Alan Hahn]

Happy New Year.

[Peter Rosenberg]

First. First and foremost. Listen, I just want to say, Don, you ripped me a couple weeks back when I suggested. I merely suggested that Kevin Stefanski would be a good option. After you.

[Don Hahn]

After you said what about a good retread coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And isn't that what Stefanski is at this point? You know, I don't. His tries are Cleveland and now he's. He's all over the New York media as a potential super.

[Don Hahn]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, I just, I don't, I don't think I ripped it saying there's no shot I might have ripped it because I just didn't. I don't love It. I still don't love it, but we'll see. It sounds like he's got the inside tracks. I think you're getting your wish. And one more thing. One more thing. We got to come off just. Well, I was gonna say another thing, but I'm not gonna take too long with this point about the Giants, you.

[Don Hahn]

Know, just like beating a dead horse.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But I just want to say this year flew by, so I'm really happy.

[Don Hahn]

You guys are together.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's been a great show. And listen so far. So keep things up and. And again, here's another year. Thanks. I appreciate it. I remember him calling about Stefanski, and I think it was right after. Didn't he. He blew some call or something. I forget.

[Don Hahn]

Remember the jets beat the Browns.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not in love with it, but it's not like I would rather have Mike McCarthy.

[Don Hahn]

It was because there was a third and short and there was an illegal procedure penalty that the Browns had that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Gave the Jets a first down that ended up icing the game, Right? Yeah, there was two, and then there was another 12 men or they couldn't set up.

[Don Hahn]

And you said, how can you have a coach.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes. That can't get these things. How can this guy be so sought after if he can't do this? And I think Luca called like that day or the day after, and I'm like, he was not very happy. But, you know, who knows? They're all. Listen, I love when you want to spin it the way you want to spin it. Oh, well, he won. He won coach a year twice in Cleveland. Mike McCarthy won a Super Bowl. Isn't that the objective?

[Don Hahn]

But nobody's saying he shouldn't be a coach, but he should be on the Giants list.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I hope he is.

[Don Hahn]

All right. So, like, again, do you. Clint Kubiak is 38 years old. Is that what you want to do?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I. If he. If he's the right guy. How do you.

[Don Hahn]

38 years old, Don.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I have. No.

[Don Hahn]

That's what you want to do.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I. I'm not saying he's going to.

[Don Hahn]

Be a good coach, but is this right now the best thing?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I need a guy dragging a resume with him. I'm sorry. I need a guy that you want.

[Alan Hahn]

To hear some rings.

[Don Hahn]

Is 43 years old. Never been a. Like he has. He has coached in more places than he spent time in places.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I know.

[Don Hahn]

He's moved around so much. His father's a head coach in college, or actually his father was a head coach in college. I think his father's in The NFL too. But like these could be good coaches one day. But is this the best job for right now for you?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I need a resume.

[Don Hahn]

So the resume guys, I just gave you two of them.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, but unfortunately the resume guys are going to have. They've been fired or they did that or they did this like the 38 year old. It's a clean slate. That's why everybody's like, I want him. And oh, well, Mike McCarthy. Look what you know, Green Bay, Dallas.

[Don Hahn]

You have a quarterback that's learning how to be the CEO of a team and you're going to have a head coach that's learning how to be a head coach all at the same time.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, thank you. In New York.

[Don Hahn]

In New York. In New York, in a place where, as Dave said, I can't go through another, you know, one in seven start because you figured like you do, you do have to turn this thing at some point.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes, I have to.

[Don Hahn]

So that's why, as nice as some of these things sound. Because of what Ben Johnson looks like. What, what, what Mike McDonald looks like. Right. What what Koc looks like in Minnesota. Like those look like that worked, right? Liam Cohn in Jacksonville look like it worked. That all looks like it. Oh, that worked. That worked. That worked. This just doesn't feel like that kind of job. And I'm telling you it's not. If I'm Jimmy Sexton, I'm representing one of these guys. No chance. I want you in New York.

[Alan Hahn]

Yeah. If your goal is to have a.

[Don Hahn]

Ruin your career.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Alan Hahn]

If your goal is to have a job for a long time and make a lot, a lot of money over.

[Don Hahn]

Time you'll make a lot of money, but you might not last.

[Alan Hahn]

But that's the thing. You want to make money for a long time.

[Don Hahn]

Robert Salah, by the way, back in the cycle, coaching, had coaching jobs.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm good.

[Alan Hahn]

They're talking about.

[Don Hahn]

He's another guy that's going to be in the cycle that is in that wild.

[Alan Hahn]

If I have. I've never seen someone who's more obviously a future hall of Fame leveled coordinator. Like, he's fantastic. It's just like, just don't mess with it.

[Don Hahn]

It's what he's got, you know?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know what the reputation is now when you fail with the Jets. It's a Jet, by the way.

[Alan Hahn]

And by the way, how can I blame people for having that right? I watched Aaron Rodgers yesterday. His best receiver on the field is Adam Thielen and he's managing to sling it down the field.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, I mean, he was throwing some good passes, but they were supposed to lose that game.

[Alan Hahn]

I understand, but he didn't have anything. There are balls that he thrown as a Steeler that just for some reason weren't able to happen.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You say supposed to lose that game. If everything went the way it was supposed to, that should have gone over because they've never missed the extra point. Who knows what happened?

[Don Hahn]

Fair enough.

[Alan Hahn]

He had more. Aaron Rodgers had more exciting offensive plays last night than the jets had all year. How about that?

[Don Hahn]

That's a good take. And that's why this whole thing all goes back to Woody Johnson. And everything with the jets all goes back to Woody Johnson. Aaron Glenn took was the face of we don't need Aaron Rodgers, but we all know he was only a messenger. He was a vessel. We all know was Woody Johnson.

[Alan Hahn]

Hey guys, you know, I know what it's like. I don't know if you're aware of this. I have worked at places before where ownership is bad and you see it everywhere and there's really not much you can do to fight against ownership being really bad. It's just how it is. Hey guys, a little game time for you, brought to you by Tullamore Do Irish Whiskey because when it's game time, it's Tully time. The Knicks looking to get back on track in Detroit against the Pistons. Coverage right here on 880 at 6:30. Rangers mammoth on 1050 at 6:30. Tullamore. Due the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast matured Irish whiskey. Be sure to grab a Telemore do or try the new Tullamore Dew. Honey, during today's action, glasses up to enjoying Tullamore Dew responsibly.

[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast. I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know. It's good. Hear more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.