Hour 3: Tables v Tiers

Summary

Don, Hahn & Rosenberg Podcast Episode: Hour 3: Tables v Tiers Release Date: August 14, 2025

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1. Introduction to Quarterback Rankings

In this episode, Don Hahn and Peter Rosenberg delve deep into the nuances of quarterback rankings, specifically examining the concepts of "Tables" versus "Tiers." The discussion revolves around evaluating the top-performing quarterbacks in the NFL and analyzing the methodologies used by executives to rate them.

2. Top Tier Quarterbacks: Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, and Jackson

The conversation kicks off with a review of the first-tier quarterbacks. Don Hahn references their extensive Table 1, which includes elite players like Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson.

Don Hahn [02:08]: "You had an extensive Table 1 with Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Jackson, not Alan Jackson, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson."

Peter Rosenberg supports the inclusion of these quarterbacks, emphasizing their consistent performance and ability to win games single-handedly.

Peter Rosenberg [01:50]: "My logic for Hurts was I was giving him the benefit of the doubt of three great seasons and a Super Bowl MVP to boot. And with Jaden Daniels, I feel that he, like the other four, is the guy who basically by himself can win you football games."

3. Tier 2 and Beyond: Evaluating the Next Group of Quarterbacks

Don Hahn critiques the structure of Table 2, describing it as "thin" and likening it to a "cocktail."

Don Hahn [02:18]: "Your table two is very thin. It was almost like a cocktail."

The second tier includes quarterbacks like Jaden Daniels, Justin Herbert, and others who are perceived as capable but not quite at the elite level of the top tier. The discussion highlights discrepancies in rankings, particularly questioning Matthew Stafford's placement.

4. Matthew Stafford's Ranking Controversy

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Matthew Stafford's placement in the top tiers. Don Hahn expresses skepticism about Stafford being ranked fifth among NFL quarterbacks, especially given his stage in career.

Don Hahn [08:30]: "But you can make the argument that Hertz is getting up there and you can make the argument that Daniels is getting up there. I don't think at this point right now that you can say that there's anybody other than those four guys."

Peter Rosenberg acknowledges the executives' decision but remains critical of Stafford's current performance relative to his ranking.

Peter Rosenberg [12:10]: "No, he's not elite quarterback anymore. But I was just a little taken aback that he felt that way, that the league feels that way."

5. Impact on the Giants and Jets: Russell Wilson and Justin Fields

The discussion shifts to the Giants and Jets, focusing on their quarterbacks Russell Wilson and Justin Fields. Don Hahn points out the paradox of high-tier quarterback rankings affecting team perceptions.

Don Hahn [06:32]: "The Jets and Giants are right. When they listed the most talented teams, weren't the Giants like 27 and the Jets 29? Now we're ranking the two starting quarterbacks."

Peter Rosenberg expresses surprise at the low rankings of these quarterbacks, considering their potential impact on their respective teams.

Peter Rosenberg [12:09]: "I'm surprised people are down."

6. Media Handling of Injury Reports

A substantial segment of the episode addresses frustrations with how the media reports (or fails to report) player injuries. The hosts argue that lack of transparency leads to unnecessary speculation and fan dissatisfaction.

Peter Rosenberg [32:08]: "I'm just asking, what's the health of the damn players are. I'm not going to get into injuries. Why? It's none of my business."

Don Hahn concurs, emphasizing the importance of clear communication from teams regarding player statuses.

Don Hahn [33:02]: "Know or you're not sure, you're not sure. I'm not going to hold it to him. It's health. It's very difficult to figure out."

7. Transition to Baseball: The 'Forever Met' Debate

Shifting gears, the hosts engage in a passionate debate about Mets legends, particularly focusing on David Wright and Ed Kranepool. The discussion centers on the criteria for being considered a "Forever Met" and the impact of injuries on a player's legacy.

Peter Rosenberg [46:25]: "David Wright was on his way to the hall of Fame... we were robbed of what could have been even better."

Don Hahn defends his earlier stance, clarifying that he did not forget David Wright in his evaluations.

Don Hahn [43:41]: "He fits the bill, right?"

The debate highlights the fine line between honoring a player's contribution and acknowledging the limitations imposed by factors like injuries.

8. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

As the episode winds down, the hosts reflect on the complexities of sports rankings, team dynamics, and fan expectations. They emphasize the importance of data-driven evaluations while recognizing the emotional investments fans have in their teams and players.

Peter Rosenberg [37:21]: "You're the media. You're trying to bring us down. And the fans eat that up."

Don Hahn [36:55]: "You got us by the short ones. I understand that."

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Notable Quotes:

• Peter Rosenberg [01:50]: "These are why I put them where I put them."

• Don Hahn [08:45]: "But I really can't kill this list."

• Peter Rosenberg [12:10]: "No, he's not elite quarterback anymore."

• Peter Rosenberg [32:35]: "I just want to know what's going on with my star wide receiver."

• Peter Rosenberg [37:21]: "You got us by the short ones. I understand that."

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Conclusion

In "Hour 3: Tables v Tiers," Don Hahn and Peter Rosenberg provide an insightful analysis of NFL quarterback rankings, critiquing executive evaluations and discussing the broader implications on teams like the Giants and Jets. Their candid conversation extends into the realm of baseball, debating the legacies of Mets icons. Throughout the episode, the hosts balance statistical analysis with fan-centric perspectives, offering a comprehensive look at the sports landscape.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments have been excluded to focus on the core discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Don Hahn]

Are you feeling more fulfilled now that you're back to work this Friday?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, I need a vacation. See the movie that critics are saying is an awesome look at that crowd pleasing, fist pumping all out brawl of a film.

[Don Hahn]

You're right about that.

[Unknown]

They're coming after our family. Go fix this.

[Don Hahn]

Oh my.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Nobody 2, rated R only in theaters Friday.

[Unknown]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Unknown]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.

[Don Hahn]

Game time is brought to you by Tullamore Dew Irish Whiskey. Because when it's game time.

[Unknown]

Sunday night, like when he holds it.

[Don Hahn]

The Mets close out their series with the Braves coverage immediately following us right here on 880 at 6:30. Yankees have the night off. They're on their way to St. Louis to take on the Cardinals for a weekend series beginning tomorrow. Tullimore Due, the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast mature iris whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore due or try to do Telemardu honey during today's action. Glasses up to enjoying Tullamore Due responsibly. So yesterday you gave your quarterback table.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, you damn right I did.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And.

[Don Hahn]

You had an extensive Table 1 with Mahomes Burrow, Allen, Jackson, not Alan Jackson, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. But you added much to the chagrin of many people, including myself, Jaden Daniels and Jalen Hurts.

[Unknown]

Yes. And my logic for Hurts was I was giving him the benefit of the doubt of three great seasons and a Super Bowl MVP to bootleg. And with Jaden Daniels, I feel that he, like the other four, is the guy who basically by himself can win you football games. And those are why I put them where I put them.

[Don Hahn]

Okay, now just quickly, your table. Your. Do you remember your table two? Your table two is very thin. It was almost like a cocktail.

[Unknown]

Well, yeah, you know, it's hard to fit. It's hard to fit everybody at these tables. Table 2, do you have it over there? Anthony Poochic.

You guys have it.

You handed it to me.

It's in the group chat. Oh, that's right. You don't read it. That'd be Herbert Goff, Prescott Mayfield.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, that's right. Now we've got the. The Athletics quarterback tears. Mike Sando put it together. His table is the lame, boring table that you were trying to avoid with one exception. He's got Mahomes Burrow, Allen Jackson and Matthew Stafford on the top tier. Now Stafford's curious, isn't it? Like I listen, I like Matthew Stafford. I know he's won a Super bowl, but is Matthew Stafford really on the top tier of quarterbacks towards the end of his career?

[Unknown]

We should clarify. The poll that Mike put together was done by six GMs, six assistant GMs, six former GMs, five other execs, eight head coaches and 19 other coaches, including 15 coordinators. So it's a 50 person panel that Mike put together. So there are enough executives.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, I'm not killing him, I'm just saying. Right. So.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And then do you think it's a.

[Unknown]

Seniority thing is what you're saying?

[Don Hahn]

It might be a seniority thing, it might be a Super bowl thing because he did win a Super Bowl. He was an elite quarterback during that super bowl season. But I can't really say that he's that now. And he does list them. After talking to all of the people that you just heard Andrew bring up, he's got Mahomes of Burrow tied for first, then Allen, then Jackson and Stafford at five. So he's got Matthew Stafford as the fifth best quarterback of the NFL. That's pretty interesting. Now his second tier, it's got Jaden Daniels at six. So really the, the executives don't think it's that outlandish that Daniels would be in the top tier for Peter. No, because he's right there on the cusp. He's six, Justin Herbert seven, Goff eight. Then a tie for ninth between Stroud and Hertz, then Mayfield, Prescott, Love and Purdy, they're all in Tier 2, which would be Table 2 for Peter. Now what I find interesting is, is that Hertz kind of falls where everybody else has him at in the top 10. But the lower end of the top 10. I know Purdy's one, but that's kind of high for me at 14. But I really can't kill this list.

[Unknown]

I thought that Peter's table two, as you said, Don, cocktail table. Not, not that. Not strong enough. I think there's more quarterbacks. Even if you want to put Hertz, which we both agree probably should be table two, and Daniels, who we think should be table two. Even if you wanted to put one of them there, there was probably other guys that he lumped into Tables 3 and 4, where they probably could have been bumped up a little bit.

[Don Hahn]

This is where it gets interesting. Tier 3, the 15th best quarterback that's.

[Unknown]

Basically, that's close to your middle is.

[Don Hahn]

Kyler Murray with Aaron Rodgers at 16.

[Unknown]

Rogers is a middle quarterback now and.

[Don Hahn]

I guess that's fair when you played no quarterback for one season, borderline poor for half a season and then much better. And now you're a year older. New system. All that to a 17. Trevor Lawrence 18.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So think about that.

[Don Hahn]

Trevor Lawrence is in the bottom half of the league. Geno Smith, Bo Nix at 20, tied with Sam Darnold May 22. Caleb Williams 23, Bryce Young 24, Kirk Cousins 25. That's tier three. And then you get to the fourth tier. Russell Wilson 26, Justin Fields 27.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's amazing to me.

[Unknown]

Not a good sign for us.

[Don Hahn]

But here's the thing.

[Peter Rosenberg]

How attached at the hip, it appears.

[Don Hahn]

The jets and Giants are right. When they listed the most talented teams, weren't the Giants like 27 and the Jets 29? Now we're ranking the two starting quarterbacks. Russell Wilson is 26, Fields is 27.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's like the rest of the league.

[Don Hahn]

Just has no respect for either of these two teams. But I can't get mad at it. Pennix Jr. 28. JJ McCarthy 29. Not bad for a quarterback that hasn't played in the NFL yet.

[Unknown]

But look at all who's under him. You're looking at guys that either haven't played or you know what you've got out of them. It's not very good.

[Don Hahn]

Daniel Jones 30, Joe Flacco 31, Richardson 32, Rattler 33. And Pickett is the only one that's on the last tier. Number 34. All right, now here's what I'll say. I guess it's. Listen, they're. They're, they're making their predictions. But what are we basing JJ McCarthy off what? The one preseason game. I mean, he hasn't played in the NFL yet. I am no Daniel Jones fan by any stretch of the imaginations. But you know, Daniel Jones has won a playoff game. But I guess they're projecting that J.J. mcCarthy will be a better quarterback than Daniel Jones. Looks like Daniel Jones, at least by this, might be the starting quarterback for the Colts. And there's higher as Richardson.

[Unknown]

And there's no Cam Ward on this list, obviously, because Cam Ward hasn't played. But there's literally.

[Don Hahn]

But, but here's the thing. Cam ward hasn't played.

[Peter Rosenberg]

J.J. mcCarthy hasn't played.

[Unknown]

That's right.

I guess you don't want to disrespect him by putting him in a level of Kenny Pickett of. We saw what Kenny Pickett does and we know that we're not overly exc. But also, you're not putting Cam Ward Anywhere. He's probably in that tier 4, but it's probably unfair to rank him because.

[Don Hahn]

Interesting. It's just, it's an interesting list of the. Trevor Lawrence at 18. That's. That's low. I. You can make the Baker Mayfield outside the top 10.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He had an amazing season last year.

[Don Hahn]

But he's a little bit older. I really don't have a problem with this. The only problem that I would have is that is Matthew Stafford the fifth best quarterback in the NFL? I know he's one, but right now at this stage of his career, is he the fifth best quarterback in the NFL? Well, again, the answer is no.

[Unknown]

You and I are in lockstep with this. Where I feel like, and I know Peter's bored by it, but having those four guys as your tier one is where it is until somebody knocks them off. Now, you can make the argument that Hertz is getting up there and you can make the argument that Daniels is getting up there. I don't think at this point right now that you can say that there's anybody other than those four guys. If you want to say that Stafford, because he's won and you know that when he's healthy, he's one of the better quarterbacks in the league and he deserves to be tier one until he slips, okay, fine. But another season of injury or another season where he's not all that great or the Rams don't make the playoffs, he's probably a tier 2 guy and probably lower than some of the guys that are on this list in Daniels and Goff and Hertz and Stroud. If Stroud has a better year this.

[Don Hahn]

Year, it is, it is amazing. You listen, it's so fascinating and we're doing it in the 5 o' clock hour because we know it moves the needle and people do seem to care about it, but it really is all about who's the team you're on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Again, I can't throw any shade at Daniels. He had a great year, but he.

[Don Hahn]

Ended up on a good team, very well coached. If he had been drafted by somebody.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Else, maybe he's not anybody that's even on anyone's radar.

[Don Hahn]

Now, the interesting thing about Stroud, his rookie year, 4,100 yards, 23 touchdowns, five interceptions.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He did take a step back.

[Don Hahn]

3,700 yards, 20 touchdowns, 12 interceptions.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So he went from rookie of the year very similar to Jaden Daniels. If Jaden Daniels has an exact same.

[Don Hahn]

Year this year that Stroud had last year, that's going to be a big disappointment to Peter and it's going to be a big disappointment in Washington now. Mike Sandow was on with DiPietro and Rothenberg and Jordan ran on, was filling in for Rick. Getting back to the Russell Wilson of it all, he said Russell Wilson is not viewed very highly right now.

[Unknown]

You know, Russell Wilson has gotten worse in this thing for like five years in a row. I think he was tier one unanimous in 2020, and then he's just gotten fewer and fewer good votes since then. And so Russell Wilson may be a year away from being viewed where Daniel Jones is viewed right now, which is a little bit lower. I mean, Russell got 25 votes in Tier 3, which is kind of a competent starter, you know, so half the people thought, okay, you know, he needs a lot of help, but he's at least a legitimate starter. Whereas with Daniel Jones, only nine people said that. So, you know, I think people are more in on Wilson than Daniel Jones. It's just a change for the Giants.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm.

[Don Hahn]

I'm a little surprised that people are as down on Russell Wilson now. This is coming from a guy in myself that felt that he was clearly on the back nine and he wasn't the same player he was in Seattle and he was a diva in Denver. He had a miserable 22 season, but he bounced back nicely in 23. Threw for 3,000 yards, 26 touchdowns, eight interceptions. And then last year in Pittsburgh, 11 starts, 16 touchdowns, five interceptions.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So I think in the right set.

[Don Hahn]

Of circumstances, Pittsburgh was not an elite offensive team by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think the Giants are going to to be either. Although I think the Giants have some weapons with a healthy neighbors. I think that could be pretty big for Russell Wilson.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm surprised people are down.

[Don Hahn]

I. I think Russell Wilson's gonna have a good year. And maybe that's just me being a little overly optimistic. Maybe I'm being hopeful that I could accuse the Jet fans of being sometimes. But I, I think Russell Wilson is going to have a good year, and I think he might have a little something left.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Is he an elite quarterback?

[Don Hahn]

No, he's not elite quarterback anymore. But I was just a little taken aback that he felt that way, that the league feels that way, that Russell Wilson is very close to just being a non entity and below Daniel Jones. But Peter, having Russell Wilson at 26, a guy that last year, in just 11 games, you know, through 16 touchdown passes, had five interceptions and threw for 2,500 yards in 11 games, is. Having him basically is among the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. I think that's a little strong.

[Unknown]

What number is he?

[Peter Rosenberg]

26.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And in the fourth tier, there seems.

[Unknown]

To be a throwing quarterbacks away thing that has been happening the last couple of years in this league. Now, usually they get it right, Don, but it does seem that a lot of the prognosticators now see one or two things and immediately move on. And I'm just old enough to remember Don when there were certain quarterbacks who appeared to be completely done and then still had a lot of gas in the tank. You know, I wonder, where do you think Kurt Warner on the Giants, Don would have been ranked by people before he went to Arizona? Like, you just don't know what someone can pull late in their career. Yeah, no one was done.

[Don Hahn]

Kurt Warner was done.

[Unknown]

I mean, listen, he was. He was obviously replaced by a rookie, Eli Manning. And it's a different situation than we have here. Eli, of course, where he was drafted versus versus where Jackson Dart was drafted. But I agree, even though I don't think Russell Wilson has a ton left in the tank, I do think that if this defense is half of what people expect and Malik Neighbors takes a step forward and Tracy is takes a step forward, there's a chance that as sort of a gam manager, senior kind of quarterback, I think Russell Wilson could have a nice year.

[Don Hahn]

Now, it's not apples to apples because Warner was 33 when he was with the Giants, all right, and he was coming off an injury plague year as last year in St. Louis. Then the Giants cut him loose. Looks like he's done. He threw for 2,000 yards, six touchdowns, four interceptions in nine games with the Giants. Right. Goes to Arizona, plays a little bit. Okay. A little bit. Okay.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Then at 36, the same age as.

[Don Hahn]

Wilson is now, has that incredible year where he throws for 3,400 yards, 27 touchdowns, 17 interceptions. Then at 37, he throws for almost 4,600 yards, 30 touchdowns, 40 interceptions, and he's fourth in player of the year at 37.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So you're right.

[Don Hahn]

I'm not saying that Russell Wilson's going to do that because I don't think the Giants are as good as the Arizona team that went to the Super Bowl. And I do think Russell Wilson's on the back nine and he's far from ever being an elite quarterback. But I just find that a lot of the league talks about the jets and Giants. They throw them away and they look at them the same way. Right. When they gave the talent list, The Giants were 27th. The Cowboys are 29th. The jets were the 29th in the league. When they're doing the quarterback, they've got Russell Wilson at 26, they've got Justin Fields at 27. It's almost like they both don't matter anyway. Like are they even viewing these guys.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They could be anything.

[Don Hahn]

And I think both of these quarterbacks well coached, especially on the Giants side with Dable being a guy that's supposed to be to discover quarterbacks to get the most out of quarterbacks that I think both Russell Wilson and Justin Fields can really change the dynamic of their offenses this year. Now we played with Sando had to say about Wilson on dnr. Here's what Sando had to say about Fields do executive thinks Fields has another level to get to.

[Unknown]

Yeah, so I don't think he's going to take it to another level as a passer. He probably is is what he is. But if you look at those two players, I think each one of them kind of has had a superpower and for Russell Wilson it was the ability to evade and elude and, and make, you know, pull a rabbit out of a hat. And he can't do that anymore. So he, you know, he's not as spectacular. Fields can still rush for 100 yards on you this week possibly. So there's at least that. I think there's something with Fields to build around that's still going to catch up to him when he has to throw the ball. In the NFL you have to throw the ball sometimes. You know, you have to put it. You have to be able to lead the two minute drill or you know what, we gave up a couple of plays early in the game and now we've got to shift into more of a passing mode and that's going to be hard to. But he is still somebody you've got to be worried about at least because he might break it 40 yards.

The interesting thing of course about Fields versus Wilson is is Fields has a higher ceiling, I think potentially, but a more likely floor. Like I think we know Russell Wilson.

[Don Hahn]

Will not because he's 26 years old.

[Unknown]

And we also are just not sure of what is there. I don't think Russell Wilson, Don is going to have an awful. Oh my God. You kind of look away season like the way Kirk Cousins ended last year. I don't think we're going to see that with Russell Wilson. I do think though Fields has a ceiling and that's what the jets are betting on, that there is a ceiling there that has not been tapped into yet. And I do think that's possible, but I do think there's a chance we're wrong. And Fields falls flat on his face.

[Don Hahn]

And listen, I wasn't in Denver. I don't know everything that went down. But it did seem like there were some diva qualities for Wilson in Denver and that got things off on the wrong foot with him and Peyton that now may be humbled coming to the Giants actually staring down the end of your career that maybe that diva's gone. I haven't heard any kind of diva behavior from him this year that maybe that humbled him to the point where he can play a little bit better. But as far as the tiers and tables go, Peter yeah. The only real disagreement is with Stafford. I think we both agree having him at the first table is a little bit of a reach by the NFL executives. Stafford to me is not in the first table, but they had Jaden Daniels.

[Peter Rosenberg]

At six and at the top of the second table.

[Don Hahn]

So football executives do not really disagree with you that.

[Unknown]

Well, that's. That's the interesting.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They didn't have him at the first table. I get it.

[Don Hahn]

But.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But it's there.

[Unknown]

No, listen, I it between between what we saw there and what we heard from Mike T. Yesterday. Totally understand why people want to rip me for putting Daniels there given my proximity to it and all that stuff. I literally named my daughter after him. I understand, but it doesn't sound like it's as wacky a pick as some of my detractors might have believed.

[Don Hahn]

Now let me ask you this because we were going over Stroud's numbers. Great rookie season. Very similar actually in some ways better than Daniel's rookie year. At least in the regular season was concerned through for over 4,000 yards, 23 touchdowns, five interceptions. Yes. From a scrambling standpoint, obviously Daniels was a lot better. But he did, you know, he did rush for three touchdowns. But no, Daniels is much better in that capacity. But in the second year, even though I technically a better record because he was 9 and 6 as a starter in 15 games in 23, 10 and 7 as a starter and 24. So essentially the same record. But he threw for like 500 less yards, three less touchdowns and he more than doubled his interceptions from 5 to 12. You would not like that if Daniels took a Stroud step backwards in a sophomore year. No.

[Unknown]

And by the way, we heard a lot about it last year, you know, before the season ended. I felt like in the middle part. Tell me if you feel the same way. I feel like in the middle part of Last year there was a lot of concern around Stroud taking a step back and it seemed like the course sort of corrected. And by the end of the year you felt like he's still on the same trajectory that you thought he was on. But no, there was, there was major concern at points last year for sure. I still feel pretty good if I'm a Texan fan.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, you should. Now you look at some of the stats down the stretch of the season.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Tell me if I'm wrong. Am I wrong on that? It felt like he sort of pulled it together.

[Don Hahn]

I mean, not really. In the last three games, 2719 lost to the Tower Chiefs through for 244, two touchdowns, two interceptions. In a loss to the Ravens of which they were essentially shut out. They lost 31 to 2.

[Unknown]

That should, that should be worse than a shutout.

[Don Hahn]

185, no touchdowns, one interception, and the final game of the season, a win against Tennessee. He didn't play. He part hardly played. So.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But you know, do you realize.

[Don Hahn]

He had two 300 yard games last year? One in week 4 and one in week 5. Did not have a 300 yard season. The rest a game, the rest of the way. His best was 285 in a win against Indianapolis by three. One touchdown, no interceptions. It wasn't a great year. But they did win a playoff game.

[Unknown]

And hear you say, but now it's hard to judge them. Don. Right. He goes to the playoff and wins a playoff. The Houston's not the most talented team in football.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well.

[Unknown]

And he's winning a playoff game with them too.

[Don Hahn]

They, they, they, they beat the chargers in the third day of Jay's playoff game. They went and he's 282. One touchdown, one pick. And then the game against Kansas City. Throws to 245. No touchdowns, no interceptions. So he's playing in the divisional round. Right. So it's. We can get caught up in the statistics and all that, but essentially kind of have the same year as far as the team's concerned. Right. Win a playoff game, go to the, you know, go to the playoffs. Overall, it really wasn't that different. Statistically it was different, but they were.

[Unknown]

Coming off of a playoff year in which they didn't particularly improve. The Commanders came into last year off of being a horrible team with low expectations and made it to a championship game and 116 record.

[Don Hahn]

Right. But the thing is the, from a Texans fan perspective, they won the same amount of games and they went to the second round of the playoffs.

[Unknown]

Sure.

[Don Hahn]

All right, sorry.

[Unknown]

12 and 5, not 11. 6.

[Don Hahn]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So if the command. If he takes a step backwards statistically.

[Don Hahn]

In the Commanders losing the championship game again to a better team, say they.

[Unknown]

Lose to Philadelphia again, how mad?

[Don Hahn]

I mean, how mad can you be?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because isn't. Isn't all of this about, you know.

[Don Hahn]

Going out there and your team being successful?

[Peter Rosenberg]

So, yeah, his stats were not nearly as good. He didn't seem like he was as good a quarterback.

[Don Hahn]

They essentially went just as far.

[Unknown]

It's the craziest thing about football, man, is that we do so much. We care so much. You see something, oh, my God, we got a guy we're going to see.

[Don Hahn]

You got to look beyond the stat. I can't sit there and tell you I watched every CJ Stroud game all year long. You know, the games that were on national tv, I poked in here and there. So from a statistical standpoint, it looked like he took a step back. But maybe people following the team would say no. Maybe there were certain circumstances. He essentially didn't play the last game of the season. If he played the last game of the season, threw for 300 yards, the stats might be a lot look better. But he didn't have to because they already had clinched.

[Unknown]

So I'm just. I'm just. I'm still heartbroken that we lost that Eagles game, even though at the time I took it in stride because I'm like, hey, we shouldn't even be here. But, Don, you just remember, man, these things don't happen. The last championship game my team played in, don, I was 12 years old. You know the thing we heard Emmett Smith saying yesterday? Emmett Smith said, you know, great teams, great organizations should sniff a championship game every decade. Most teams don't. It seems like the same team sniff it every year, because you know what.

[Don Hahn]

The commanders going to the championship game did?

[Unknown]

What it did.

[Don Hahn]

What it did was make the Dallas Cowboys the last team to. Still, not everybody's appeared in a championship game more recently than the Dallas Cowboys in the nfc.

[Unknown]

Yep. Isn't that crazy? And now that. And now the Giants, who you feel like are always there, are the second worst at this moment.

[Don Hahn]

It's pretty crazy. But you did lose to a better team on the road and a team that won the Super Bowl.

[Unknown]

It's hard to beat.

[Don Hahn]

You can't beat them on it.

[Unknown]

No.

[Don Hahn]

And you know what? Put up a way better showing than the Chiefs did in the Super Bowl.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, the score was ugly. The score was ugly. But into the third quarter, you thought they were there. This is an ad by BetterHelp. These days, it feels like there's a vice for everything. Cold plunges, gratitude journals, screen detoxes. But how do you know what actually works for you? With the Internet and information overload about mental health and wellness, it can be a struggle to know what's true and what actions to take. These days, using trusted resources and talking to live therapists can get you personalized recommendations and help to help you break through the noise. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out. With BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] timeout. That's betterhelp.com timeout.

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Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Catch this show on whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

Another a day for Jacob with the music.

[Unknown]

Don't try to make up for what happened yesterday.

[Don Hahn]

It's too late. What happened, happened, but it can't ever be forgotten. Well, I. I intend to forget about it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Clown show.

[Unknown]

Clown show.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It would die, Jacob.

[Don Hahn]

It would have died of death much quite quicker if it wasn't for Peter continuing to bring it up.

[Unknown]

But I also helped make it better at the time. So you get both of me. I helped make jokes to, like, pacify it in the moment. But then I will keep bringing it back up. Give me more. Give me more.

[Don Hahn]

Jacob, don't do it. Jacob.

[Unknown]

There's more. Come on. He's at his best right there.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Can we get our act together?

[Don Hahn]

You're human.

[Unknown]

And by the way, you see how nice Don is? Jacob, he said we. He meant you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We're off to a swimming start today and Here said.

[Unknown]

He said word, Jacob.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He meant you.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wow. Isn't that nice, though?

[Unknown]

He cleaned that up. He changed it to we when he met you.

See, now you're making it worse.

Are we a day removed?

What would we do without Peter pointing all this out?

We know what's happening. Listen, everyone who's on the board has a moment where they get fried. It's just if you're shiny culture on my morning show, it's three out of the five days in a week. So it's, you know, it happens to everybody. In a lot of ways. It's the hardest job.

[Don Hahn]

We succeed and fail as a team. That's why I said we.

[Unknown]

That's nice. You know what?

[Don Hahn]

Our. You know what?

[Unknown]

I respect the hell out of that, Don.

[Don Hahn]

There was a dirty little thing going on with the Giants that need to be. You know, there's no Malik Neighbors.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's a thing. Brian Dable today.

[Don Hahn]

How's Neighbors doing?

[Unknown]

And, you know, not going to get into injuries.

[Don Hahn]

He's working hard to get back. Here we go again.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's.

[Don Hahn]

You know, thank. Thanks, coach.

[Unknown]

Here we go again. Well, I'm not going to get into injuries. It's a great national secret. We don't want to give anything away for this weekend. We could drop the big game. Who do they play this weekend? The Jets.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, preseason.

[Unknown]

Wait, wait, wait. I don't want to drop one to the Jets. Come on. Why do we have to do this even in the preseason, Don? This is why I don't. I like, almost like table. And it's stuff like that that just annoys me. Just. Can we just do big boy stuff? Here's what he's dealing with. It's a preseason game, Don, and we know, but, like, can I just get an update on where he's at?

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, that's all.

[Unknown]

Just what level?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not gonna get in.

[Unknown]

Why? Why, What's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Why are you talking. Shut up and leave.

[Don Hahn]

In the regular season, you got to keep it close to the vest because you don't want to give the other team inside information. All right, I get it. But at this stage, he is a major piece to your offense moving forward.

[Peter Rosenberg]

As a fan, forget. Never mind gambler, never mind fantasy player, just a fan. I'd like to know, how's he doing? Will he be ready for the start of the season? I don't want to get into injuries.

[Don Hahn]

Is what he said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Why we should be getting into injuries. It's training camp. We're getting ready for the start of the season. It's very important to A lot of people where their favorite players stand in the grand scheme of things. We're not asking you to give us all of the information in depth, tissue damage garbage. We just want to know what. What are the odds he's going to play week one? Is he going to play this Saturday? Is he going to play in the preseason? Is this a concern? Week one against the Commanders? None of my business.

[Don Hahn]

Although I do think it gets a little. We want them preparing for neighbors. And that way when Neighbors doesn't play.

[Unknown]

They'Ll go, oh, shut.

[Don Hahn]

I don't know if we're going to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Be able to play. I was preparing for neighbors. Now he's not there. What we gonna do?

[Unknown]

Can you imagine if we lost to the jets this week? What does that say about this football team?

[Don Hahn]

I'm gonna get fired.

[Unknown]

First they got the man cheerleaders and now we gonna lose this game to the Jets. Well, dadgum it, why am I even playing?

[Peter Rosenberg]

And you know what?

[Don Hahn]

Everybody gets on the NHL for the upper body or lower body. I don't. I don't care what's wrong with him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I just want to know he's able to play and what are the chances he's going to play. Don't get into the HIPAA laws. I don't need to know where the injury is, how intense the pain is. I don't need to see the X rays. I'm just asking, what's his status? How's he doing? The chance he's going to play Saturday. Will he play against the Patriots the last preseason game? What's the status? Week one against Washington. That's all. I don't need to know anything else. We'll taste a not going to get into injuries. Why? Why not?

[Unknown]

I just don't know the point of talking in the preseason if we can't get updates on players health.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's the most important thing. I could see how people looked in practice. I've got reporters going over with a fine tooth comb. People can't help but make lists. Dan Orlovsky the other day, you know, top quarterback mechanics. All right, so everybody's going to analyze how guys are playing, but information is king. I just want to know Brian Dabel and Aaron Glenn and all these coaches.

[Don Hahn]

In the NFL have jobs and are.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Making the money that they're making because.

[Don Hahn]

Of the humongous popularity of this sport.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And you have a press conference not for your jollies, but to give information to everybody that's out there because they are paying your salary. I'm not asking for you to give us War and Peace or Top Secrets. I'm not asking for the first 10 scripted plays against the Commanders in week one. I just want to know what the health of the damn players are. I'm not going to get into injuries. Why? It's none of my business. Then why are you even talking at the podium? Why are we even having a press conference? Come on, man. It's information. People want to know.

[Unknown]

You don't have to be this way. Not every single coach is this way. It's a choice. It's a choice.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah. Because they. The two things they think they're accomplishing, and I'm not just getting on dable. All of them.

[Don Hahn]

Two things they're thinking of accomplishing, that they're coming off like.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The tough guy, like it's the new sheriff in town.

[Don Hahn]

Garbage. Like hell. You know, this is not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is not going to be happening here, man. You're the enemy. It's us against you. You're the media. You're trying to bring us down. And the fans eat that up. They love that. I'm telling you. The fans love it. We complain in the media, but the Popovich and the Tortorellas and the Belichicks.

[Don Hahn]

Of the world.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That abuse the media and get into it with this person and that person. The fans eat that up because they have no respect for us as the media anyway. But the fans kind of want to know what's going on. Again, don't make it War and Peace. But I'm not going to get any injuries. My question will be why?

[Unknown]

I have a slightly different take on it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Interesting.

[Unknown]

I agree. We know that neighbors has a toe injury. Not giving any information to me just doesn't make me feel good. Because he hasn't practiced. He hasn't been practicing. Doesn't make me feel good about Saturday. I doubt he's going to play then. If he's not practicing now, do we really think he's going to play in Week 3 of the preseason?

[Don Hahn]

I have concerns, and this is what happens. All right? Now we're left to our own devices. You. You just gave a great example.

[Unknown]

Very scary for me.

[Don Hahn]

All right. You know it's a toe injury. I know it's a toe injury. The world knows it's a toe injury. We don't care. We just want to know his status.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And if you don't know, you don't.

[Don Hahn]

Know or you're not sure, you're not sure. I'm not going to hold it to him. It's health. It's very difficult to figure out. All right. It's not an exact science. We understand that. That's why they call it the practice of medicine.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I get that.

[Don Hahn]

But Anthony just brought up a great point. And if Andrew were here, he would agree.

[Unknown]

He would.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That now you're worried that it's worse than it might be because they're not giving information. Now we're left to our own devices. Now we begin to speculate.

[Don Hahn]

Oh, maybe.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Maybe the toe's really bad. Maybe he not be ready for the start of the season.

[Don Hahn]

Anthony was having a conversation with me earlier today.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't want Jackson Dark to start if Neighbors isn't playing. Because now how is he going to be a good quarterback back if he doesn't have his number one weapon? All these things are starting to formulate.

[Don Hahn]

In the fans eyes, but also in the media's eyes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And if people in the media start to speculate what happens with the organization, they get mad that the media is speculating about things. Well, the only reason they're speculating about things is because you're not giving us any information. So we're forced to speculate. We're supposed to now wonder, what does it mean that Dable is not giving us information? What is he hiding? How bad is it? Because he wouldn't be hiding if he was fine. If he was going to play Saturday, he'd tell us. But the fact he's not going to get into injuries makes me think that it's worse than it is. And that's not fair. So that's the disconnect that it's happening in sports with the fans. It's almost like it's none of your business. It is partially my business because we pay for the tickets, we pay for the NFL package. We buy the magazines, we buy the jerseys.

[Unknown]

We.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We're into the team. You make the money that you make. Football is popular because of us. I'm not asking to sit in the meetings. I'm not asking for the playbook. I'm not asking to look at the X rays. I just want a little bit of information about what's going on with my star wide receiver. And again, it's not because I'm betting on the game. It's not because I'm deciding whether I'm going to draft him in fantasy, although that's not nothing. You are in bed with the gambling and fantasy is a major reason why this sport is popular. I'm just talking from a fan perspective. I'm a Giant fan. I want to know what's going on with My number one pick last year, my best weapon, the guy that's going to give me one of the best chances to win this season. I'd like to know what's going on with his injury and the arrogance of I not going to get into injuries. I'd ask the question why? And if it's none of my business, then whose business is it?

[Unknown]

But to your point, Don, I agree with you and the reason I said that earlier today is I'm not of the belief that Jackson Dart should start right away. But there are people that we respect like Mike Tannenbaum who do believe it. And Mike said yesterday with us that the most important thing is to put him in the right situations. Well, I think the right situation is to have your deep threat, best wide receiver that some people think is one of the best in football already. He needs to be available for you because I maybe not me, somebody with football athletic ability can hand the ball to Tyrone Tracy and Cam Scatterboo who's also not practicing by the way. Anyway, I could get Russell Wilson to do that. I don't need Jackson Dart under center without Malik Neighbors playing against some of the best, not only teams in your own division, but in football in the first five weeks of the season. I think I'm good. I don't need to see that. I know what it'll look like. It won't be pretty.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Don Hahn]

And again, I'm not getting on Dable or Glenn or anybody specifically. It's just overall, and believe me, I've dealt with coaches, coaches that I like and it's just like, oh, what are you asking me for, dude?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Don't make it seem like we're nobody. We're everybody. This sport is driven by the fans. No fans, no television contract, no ticket.

[Don Hahn]

Sales, no money, no. No long term contracts, no cba, no nothing.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not going to be arrogant enough.

[Don Hahn]

To say that I should be in, in the meetings and all that, but.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Just don't treat us like we don't matter because we're everything now. You got us by the short ones. I understand that.

[Don Hahn]

Because we're never going to give up on our sports. We're always going to watch and it's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not going to matter.

[Don Hahn]

But please, a little bit more respect then I'm not going to get into injuries and in fact, it's none of your business.

[Peter Rosenberg]

When you really look at the way things are divvied up.

[Don Hahn]

It's a lot of our business. We are the business because we're the suckers that are coughing up the money that you guys checks are cashed by every week. 1-800-919-3776 got some open phone lines. ENN's coming up at 6.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We're going to take it to the bottom of the hour.

[Don Hahn]

Then it's Mets, Braves, it's all happening right here on ESPN New York.

[Unknown]

You know we've been talking about defense a bunch this baseball season. A good defense is important for your business. Also. Listen, the truth is 1/3 of businesses will unwittingly turn over their sensitive company data to thieves this year in an instant. Your customer files, bank accounts, everything is compromised. And you won't know until the million dollar ransom demand hits your email. Preventing data turnovers is why your business needs Thrive, the leading managed security services provider in the US now it all starts with a comprehensive Thrive cyber risk assessment. Thrive security analysts identify security gaps and deliver proactive solutions to help keep your network healthy and protected. Listen, it's not a matter of if, it's when. So ask yourself, are you ready? Get your no obligation security recommendations and consultation. Your business relies on it. Visit thrivenextgen.com espn that's thrive nextgen.com.

Thanks.

For listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

Catch this show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Hahn]

It's game Time brought to you by Telemu Irish Whiskey. Because when it's game time, it's Charlie time.

[Unknown]

Now that is two drops at once, right? That's you. Twice.

[Don Hahn]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Right. You don't, you can't speak. You, you, you can't speak out of your mouth twice at the same time.

[Don Hahn]

Throw my voice. No. The Mets close out their series with the Braves coverage immediately following us on 880 at 6 30. Tullamore Dew, the original triple distilled, triple blended and triple cast matured Iris whiskey. Be sure to grab a Tullamore Dew or try the new Tullamore Dew. Honey. During today's action, glasses up to enjoying Telemardu responsibly. Just punch that song up again because I thought about this when I was away. I was at Castaway Cove which is on the boardwalk of Ocean City and that's where all the rides are and the kids are there and I'm waiting for some ice cream and they had this pumping through because they had the 90s on nine on Sirius XM and they played this, this might be, I thought about it, my favorite hip hop song.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wow.

[Don Hahn]

Now is that an outrageous opinion No.

[Unknown]

I think there are.

[Don Hahn]

Is it shared by other people in the hip hop community?

[Unknown]

I think there are people who.

[Don Hahn]

Who.

[Unknown]

Hip hop's their primary love, and this.

[Don Hahn]

Is just something cool.

[Unknown]

It's not. It's not exactly. It's not that it's the best rapt song in history, certainly.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No. And. And. But it's just.

[Don Hahn]

He's breaking new ground or anything. I just. I really. The Lakers beat the super song.

[Unknown]

It's unlike anything else, though. It lives in its own place right now. Question.

[Don Hahn]

Yes, this is.

[Unknown]

This is probably a silly question, because I'm guessing the answer is no.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Do you know the other version of that song or do you only know that one?

[Don Hahn]

I didn't. I only know that one, I think. And that's just from being at Sportsphone and it being on mtv.

[Unknown]

Right. But you remember it was huge on mtv and you. But there was another version of it that in. In hip hop circles was. Was pretty big. And I'm. I'd be curious to know what you think about it now. It's been 30 some years, and so if you love that version, you may have no use for the other one.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Unknown]

But if you see it in there, Jacob, The. The Today's a Good Day remix, it was at the time I loved both, and I would kind of play either one, but. No, I think that's a completely reasonable take.

[Don Hahn]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And I went through that yacht rock playlist I was talking about yesterday.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I deleted some things because my. My. My dear friend, he just. He made a fool of himself. I'm sorry. Some of those things on there were just. It was. It was foolish. Come on. There was. There was. He did like Loggins and Messina, and I'm like, no, Loggins. Yacht rock. Loggins and Messina. Well, not what he put in. Not what he put. I'm not a big Loggins and Messina listener. The song that he had in there was not yacht rock. It was too acoustic Y and kind of folky leaning.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, it's definitely folk because it's earlier 70s.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And he wasn't. Yeah, he just wasn't quite there. Let me see. If I tell you which one it was, you'll know it was it.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah, I. It's not popping into my head because Daniel keeps popping into my head, but it's not. It's.

[Unknown]

You mean Danny's song?

[Don Hahn]

The Danny song. That's it. Yeah. But it wasn't. That wasn't that. It was.

[Unknown]

It was Vajavala. Or was this.

[Don Hahn]

I don't think so.

[Unknown]

I'M kind of good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm thinking. Dad. No, no.

[Don Hahn]

No, no.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no.

[Don Hahn]

But even though we ain't got money.

[Unknown]

I'm so in love with you, honey. Which song is that again?

[Don Hahn]

That's Danny.

[Unknown]

Danny's Law. Oh, Danny. Song's a great record.

[Don Hahn]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That's close. Now give out, give, Give old Donald a little taste here is this It.

[Don Hahn]

Was a Good Day remix.

[Unknown]

Hopefully it's the right ones. You never know. Yeah. Not into it.

[Don Hahn]

No, I like it, but it doesn't.

[Unknown]

It doesn't rival every.

[Don Hahn]

Every every the feels completely gone. It is zapped of all of it's zapping.

[Unknown]

The feel is what you're saying.

[Don Hahn]

Because there's a. There's.

[Unknown]

It's a big sample though. That's.

[Don Hahn]

I just felt when I was the ice cream, I was kind of like swaying back, right?

[Unknown]

Give you the same sweat.

[Don Hahn]

No, it's just staple singers. It's different. 1-800-919-3776. Paul's down in Philly. You're on ESPN New York.

[I]

What's up, Paul, Don and Peter. I love you guys. Been listening since 1947. But Don, I have a quick theory for you.

[Don Hahn]

Mm.

[I]

I'm not sure if you're gonna like this.

[Don Hahn]

Okay, go.

[I]

I think during your Ed Crane pool rant, I think. I think you forgot about David Wright and now all these years later, you've just been doubling down on, you know, your take that David Wright not a forever player.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean that's a. That's a good point because otherwise your.

[I]

Rant would be incorrect.

[Don Hahn]

No, because I have said because like Reyes is excluded because of what happened and him going to the Marlins and all that. But I've always brought up with David Wright.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's a forever met.

[Don Hahn]

But even he's damaged because we were robbed of what should have been an even better career because of the back like the contract.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They actually signed him to a really good contract. It looks bad because he couldn't find finish playing like. So I always disclaimer Wright with.

[Don Hahn]

He fits the bill, right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Great player his whole career with the Mets.

[Don Hahn]

But even we can't enjoy that because.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We were really robbed. We should have had at least another good four or five years of David.

[Don Hahn]

Wright, of prime David Wright where he.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Really could have been, let's. Let's face it, maybe even a Hall of Fame caliber player. So even David Wright, who technically is a forever met, his numbers retired. He fits all the criteria. But wouldn't you admit, Paul, we still were robbed of what could have Been even better.

[Don Hahn]

David Wright.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And that's why I don't put him there because it still ended up being a sad story.

[I]

I think you're right. We were robbed. But at the same time, like, I, you know, frankly, you know, Ed Krampool played a long time ago. I'll admit I wasn't alive back then. So I was curious. I looked up his. I punched, you know, like you. I punched up his old baseball reference page and I realized he was like, like, like 10% of the player that David Wright was. I mean, seven time all star Ed Crane pool, only one all star game. I mean, Ed Crane pool hit like 50 RBIs a season. Like, he wasn't even that good. And I know you hype him up because, you know it's good for the.

[Unknown]

Show as an older.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, no. But listen, there was the rant with.

[Don Hahn]

Dave, with, with Ed Crane pool is. And I don't want to be disrespectful to Ed Crane pool, but it was.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Just exaggerating the point that because he was drafted at 17, he was a local kid and he played from 1962 to 1979 is why he's considered a forever man. They're wearing his number seven on the jersey. He passed away. You can't deny that. And how sad it is because you look at the stats, he was never a great player. He's a good pinch hitter. He's a really good player. But it became the Ed Crane pool rant and it came across as being pejorative to Ed. He is what he is. It's just, he was the Forever Met just because of the longevity and he.

[Don Hahn]

Was a part of the championship team in 69.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He was on the 73 team. But no, he wasn't a great guy. But look at David Wright. David Wright played to the 35, but go ahead.

[I]

But look at David Wright. He was on the 06 team. He was on the 15 team. Came back from the injury. We just, you know, we know what he went through to get back, to be able to make it for that season, to act like the mentum. Never had a forever player for Ed Kramer since Ed Krameville. I think it's just wrong. Like, you're right. David Wright fits the bill. And I think to overstate the fact that to act like, oh, he wasn't the forever Met that you have perfectly crafted in your head, I think you're just doubling down because you don't want your. No, no, let me, let me, let.

[Unknown]

Me, let me defend on there. You're making good points. But let me push back on one thing. The Forever Met being just. If you say it's, it's. It's really crane pool, it doesn't really change Don's point that much. I mean, David Wright was a really nice player. A really nice player, but a really nice player with no rings, whose career was derailed by injuries. Sort of in the middle of it. It's still not for that to, for him to be one of a bunch, no problem. But if that's the one guy you're hanging your hat on in the last 20 years, maybe more, you still agree it's not ideal, right?

[I]

No, I agree. I. Peter, Peter, I agree. It's a salient point by you. You know, you've proved your baseball chops. Congratulations. I agree with you. But. But there's a generation of Mets fans. We just saw them two weeks ago. There's a generation of Mets fans who will tell their kids and their grandkids, David Wright was the Forever Met. So you don't know.

[Unknown]

But that doesn't change. Don's.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But that. You're missing the point. Listen, Tom Seavers are Forever Met. He's the greatest Met to ever play. He had the highest at the time he went into the hall of Fame, he had the highest percentage of anybody, right? And so to a generation of Met fans, that is a Forever Met. But I'm just saying, even a Forever Met had to win his 300th game as a White Sox, had to pitch his no hitter as a Red. He didn't get a chance to finish his career here. And we were robbed. David Wright was on his way to the hall of Fame, you know, at the age of 30, he had a lifetime batting average of way over.300. He was a perennial All Star. He was a Gold Glove left third baseman. And then the back goes. And then it just. From, from 2014 until he retired in 2018, it just ended up being sad. So, yes, he is a Forever Met. They, Tom Seavers are Forever Met. Doc Gooden's a Forever Met. Darryl Strawberries a Forever Met. Right. Cleon Jones is a Forever Met. But they all come with some sort of baggage.

[Unknown]

There's an actress. There's an actress.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's the point.

[Don Hahn]

Right?

[Peter Rosenberg]

And David Wright checks every box. But for David Wright to be the Forever Met, a guy that we were robbed of a really great career, he probably, if David Wright didn't injure his back, he's probably close to 3,000 hits. He's going to the hall of Fame. We just can't have nice things, son.

[Don Hahn]

He.

[Unknown]

The problem is Wright checks every box, including the asterisk box.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, that's what he says.

[Unknown]

He checks every box. And by the way, the guy has to take a broadside swipe at me in baseball, of course, cuz I'm beating him in an argument. You called up to make a point. I responded in a way that thoroughly shut down your argument. You made Don's point for him. You just feel sad. Oh, but what about David Wright? He's a forever man. Okay, sure have David Wright too. Does that really change the conversation?

[Don Hahn]

The allegation though that I forgot David Wright and now just doubling down, how you forget David Wright?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I did that rant. Oh God, that was probably over 10 years ago.

[Don Hahn]

I did that.

[Unknown]

No, no, I was here. So it's probably in the middle of David wright, right? It's 2016.

[Don Hahn]

But the point is that I didn't forget David Wright.

[Peter Rosenberg]

David Wright is part of the bill.

[Unknown]

Part of the same thing that the.

[Peter Rosenberg]

One guy that finally checked all the.

[Don Hahn]

Boxes still had to retire too early.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Had a bad back and ended up. I'm sorry they even mentioned it when.

[Don Hahn]

They retired his number.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The feeling of disappointment that we didn't get to see the true abilities of.

[Unknown]

This kid, by the way. And how about this, Don? Now add the whole killer's row pitching rotation that they had in the teens. None of it ended up what you wanted. You thought. You thought deGrom was forever met. You thought cinder.

[Don Hahn]

Who knew?

[Unknown]

You thought. You thought Matt Harvey could potentially. We had Harvey day once a week. All of these things fell apart.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It proves Don's point.

[Don Hahn]

Take a look at some of your number.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They're deep. They're Jeter Esque, 22 years old, he's batting 306, 102 RBIs, 27 home runs, 26 homers, 116 RBIs batted 311. Batted 325, 302, 307. I mean if you look at the numbers his first four or five years of career, he's toe to toe with Derek Jeter. Didn't have the rings, but the stat wise he was almost as good as Derek Jeter. That's what I'm saying. It still ended in gross disappointment.

[Don Hahn]

What we're not going to be disappointed in is. Is ENN with Anthony Pusick next on enn.

[Unknown]

Let me do something first, Don, and talk to you. Give you a brief ad by my friends at BetterHelp. These days it feels like there's Advice for everything. Cold plunges, gratitude journals, screen detoxes. But how do you know what actually works for you? With the Internet and information overload about mental health and wellness, it can be a struggle to know what's true and what actions to take these days. For example, if I had therapy right now, I'd probably go, why are there callers out there who hate me so much that when I make a good point they feel the need to have like some big put down on me that they've had sitting in their arsenal and they think, Peter sounds like he's making salient, cogent points. I'm not having such a complex argument about baseball that Peter, it's like I'm talking. It wasn't exactly Peter Gammons called up to have an argument. Boy genius. But I need to get these things out in therapy. That's why I have therapy. That's why you should consider Better Help, because we need to get these things out and BetterHelp gives you so many ways to fit it into your busy lifestyle. They'll help you switch therapists at any time too, and have such a large community of therapists online that you can choose from. Alright, A great way to get to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com timeout. That's betterhelp.com timeout. Thanks, Peter Gammons.

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

I don't want to know how the.

[Don Hahn]

Sausage is made, man.

[Unknown]

I just want to know.

[Don Hahn]

It's good.

[Unknown]

Hear more of Don, Alan and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app and your smart speakers.