Hour 4: Paul Heyman joins the show

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg – Hour 4: Paul Heyman Joins the Show

Podcast Information:

• Title: Don, Hahn & Rosenberg
• Host/Authors: Don La Greca, Alan Hahn, Peter Rosenberg
• Episode: Hour 4: Paul Heyman Joins the Show
• Release Date: August 6, 2025
• Description: ESPN New York and New Jersey’s own Don La Greca, sportswriter and New York Knick broadcaster Alan Hahn, alongside Hip Hop veteran and WWE personality Peter Rosenberg, delve into topics spanning sports, entertainment, and more.

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1. Introduction and Setup (00:30 – 02:30)

Don Hahn (00:30): Kicks off the show by introducing the podcast.

Peter Rosenberg (00:34): Expresses enthusiasm, suggesting the use of the ENN intro for the episode.

Ty D. Butler (02:14): Brings up a humorous exchange about Peter potentially using his car, leading to light-hearted banter among the hosts.

Notable Quote:

• Peter Rosenberg (01:19): “Everything about it was pure, unadulterated ass. And to myself, it was not great.”

2. Introducing Paul Heyman (02:30 – 11:16)

Peter Rosenberg: Announces the arrival of Paul Heyman, referring to him as “the Oracle.”

Ty D. Butler (03:38): Engages in playful conversation about car usage rumors on Twitter, highlighting the camaraderie among the hosts.

Introduction of Paul Heyman (11:16):

• Paul Heyman: Joins the show with his son, sparking discussions about family and personal anecdotes, including diaper-changing stories and humorous advice on parenting.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (11:24): “Handsome, striking, all those things. Ruthless. He better be in this world.”
• Ty D. Butler (15:04): Shares a humorous parenting tip from Mike Tannenbaum about diaper changes.

3. Paul Heyman's Career Journey (15:15 – 27:10)

Discussion on WWE’s Move to ESPN (15:15 – 22:34):

• Peter Rosenberg: Brings up the recent news about WWE's content moving to ESPN’s new direct-to-consumer platform.
• Paul Heyman (15:53): Provides insights, emphasizing the blend of sport and entertainment in WWE, and endorses the partnership as a natural fit for both entities.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (15:53): “Just because it's predetermined doesn't mean it's not sport.”
• Peter Rosenberg (17:42): Highlights the historical relationship between ESPN and professional wrestling.

Paul Heyman's Early Career (18:04 – 27:10):

• Paul Heyman (18:15): Shares his early days in the wrestling industry, managing the original Midnight Express and Adrian Adonis in the AWA.
• Peter Rosenberg (19:34): Appreciates Heyman’s foresight at a young age in making career decisions.
• Paul Heyman (21:54): Attributes his strategic career moves to his street-smart upbringing and his father's influence.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (18:24): “I was already in the manager game.”
• Paul Heyman (21:54): Discusses his father's street smarts and how it influenced his business decisions.

4. Evolution of Paul Heyman’s Role (27:10 – 43:15)

Transitioning Through Wrestling Promotions:

• Paul Heyman (27:10): Details his transition from AWA to Southern Championship Wrestling, Windy City Wrestling, and Continental Wrestling, eventually leading to WCW.
• Discussion on Wrestling Storylines (24:40 – 27:10): Heyman explains his involvement in various wrestling promotions and the dynamics of managing top talent.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (27:24): “I was an advocate, evolving past the traditional manager role.”
• Paul Heyman (26:17): Explains his progression through different wrestling promotions and roles.

5. Insights into Current Wrestling Landscape (43:15 – 50:07)

Paul Heyman’s Relationships and Management Style (43:15 – 46:24):

• Peter Rosenberg: Inquires about Heyman’s most impactful relationships within WWE.
• Paul Heyman (43:07): Elaborates on his unique relationships with each wrestler, comparing them to familial bonds and emphasizing personalized management approaches.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (43:07): “What motivates Brock Lesnar does not necessarily motivate Roman Reigns.”
• Paul Heyman (46:24): Describes CM Punk as “a moody SOB that listens to really angry music.”

Discussion on Wrestlers’ Personalities and Careers:

• Paul Heyman (49:54): Draws parallels between CM Punk and Gary Oldman’s early career, highlighting Punk’s potential in dramatic roles.
• Peter Rosenberg (49:33): Asks about the more fun-loving personalities among top wrestlers.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (49:54): “Phil Brooks right now is Gary Oldman in the 1990s.”

6. Current Events and Future Plans (50:07 – 53:23)

WrestleMania and Ongoing Storylines:

• Peter Rosenberg (50:07): Discusses the recent WrestleMania events and Seth Rollins’ performance.
• Paul Heyman (51:57): Reflects on the success and historical tactics used in wrestling storylines, emphasizing the blend of old-school techniques with modern storytelling.

Future Collaborations and Closing Remarks:

• Peter Rosenberg (52:28): Mentions the incorporation of Paul Heyman in future episodes.
• Paul Heyman (52:46): Expresses delight at being invited to the show and hints at ongoing collaborations.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Heyman (51:11): “I have to understand their nuances and their idiosyncrasies.”
• Peter Rosenberg (53:01): Encourages listeners to watch WWE Evolve on Tubi featuring him.

7. Conclusion (53:23 – 53:29)

Final Thoughts:

• Don Hahn (53:23): Thanks listeners and promotes the podcast's availability.
• Peter Rosenberg (53:27): Concludes with humorous remarks about understanding the behind-the-scenes processes.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Paul Heyman's Expertise: The episode offers an in-depth look at Paul Heyman's evolution in the wrestling industry, highlighting his strategic decisions and personalized management style.
• WWE and ESPN Partnership: Heyman supports the collaboration between WWE and ESPN, viewing it as a natural progression that blends sports and entertainment.
• Personal Anecdotes: The hosts share humorous and personal stories, adding a relatable and engaging layer to the discussion.
• Future Collaborations: The episode sets the stage for continued appearances by Paul Heyman, promising more insider insights in future episodes.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Peter Rosenberg (01:19): “Everything about it was pure, unadulterated ass. And to myself, it was not great.”
• Paul Heyman (15:53): “Just because it's predetermined doesn't mean it's not sport.”
• Paul Heyman (21:54): “My father was very, very, very, very, very, very street smart.”
• Paul Heyman (43:07): “What motivates Brock Lesnar does not necessarily motivate Roman Reigns.”
• Paul Heyman (49:54): “I think Phil Brooks right now is Gary Oldman in the 1990s.”
• Don Hahn (53:23): “Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.”

This episode masterfully blends professional insights with personal stories, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of Paul Heyman's impact on the wrestling industry and his dynamic relationships with top talent. The engaging dialogue and candid revelations make it a must-listen for fans of wrestling and entertainment alike.

Transcript

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[Don Hahn]

This is the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That sounds like heaven to me.

[Don Hahn]

Listen live weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, let's. You know what? I think we should play the INN intro even if we're not going to do a proper enn. It just seems like the right thing to do. Am I wrong?

[Ty D. Butler]

Let's do it.

[Don Hahn]

This is an ENN special report.

[Paul Heyman]

Now reporting the very handsome Jewish man, Peter Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We should talk some sports. Do what you want to see.

[Paul Heyman]

Peter Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, hey, everyone. Welcome to ENN on ESPN New York. Start off by saying good evening to myself. Everything about it was pure, unadulterated ass. And to myself, it was not great. To myself, how can I. I want to manage. Someone needs to lie.

[Paul Heyman]

I need to manage.

[Ty D. Butler]

Just Stephen a impression.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And good evening to Ty.

[Ty D. Butler]

You think you can do that? Six hours, just bang, bang, bang.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, it's a very interesting point. And good evening to Ty.

[Ty D. Butler]

Where's the meat at?

[Peter Rosenberg]

When was that? Just now.

[Ty D. Butler]

That was me talking about my salad just now. Yeah, where's the meat at?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Doesn't even sound like you.

[Ty D. Butler]

Interesting development. Gabby Gordon. She tweets in as one of the interns. I get you a sandwich any day of the week.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, hello.

[Ty D. Butler]

But I'm taking your car. Deal. Connor says. I second that. Rosenberg. Drugs and all. So now you got drugs in the car.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wait, where are they saying this?

[Ty D. Butler]

This is on Twitter. You should check your mention sometimes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, first of all, I've backed off the drug request.

[Ty D. Butler]

Also, shout out Anthony Pusick and Ty D. Butler for defending us. I got y'.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All Again, there was no need for defense. No one needed to be defended because no one was attacked against such cruelty. Not what happened.

[Ty D. Butler]

Interstation cruelty.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Nothing that you're saying is accurate. Nothing that you're saying is true.

[Ty D. Butler]

But would you let an intern use your car?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course. Okay, can I be honest with you guys? I know a lot of people don't relate to the sentiment. As Jacob knows this. I'll let people use my car. I don't stress that. The way I figure is, like, if something bad happens with your car, it's annoying no matter whether you do it, someone else does it. I don't want anything to happen to my car. But, like, well, I lease. It's on my precious.

[Paul Heyman]

Like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, but I've seen people who don't even want. Like, let's say, for instance, I let you borrow my car. I wouldn't even let you take it around the block, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's. People like that in the world.

[Ty D. Butler]

What does that mean? They can't get into a car accident.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, yeah. I don't own the car. Like, I gotta get it fixed.

[Ty D. Butler]

You still gotta pay up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It's a matter of inconvenience.

[Ty D. Butler]

And there's insurance if something happens.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I just. I guess maybe I've never had a car that was like, so John Blaze that I was just like, oh, my God, if anything happens to this.

[Ty D. Butler]

I don't. But I don't even think John Blaze is like, what we're talking about.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, it's. No one really uses the phrase John Blaze, so that's probably fair. But. Yeah, go ahead.

[Ty D. Butler]

It's just like, it's, it's annoying. And it also is gonna cause your insurance premium to raise to get into an accident.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm not, I'm not trying to tell you I don't understand why people are that way. I drive a Dodge Stratus. I'm just saying I'm not the type who gets bent out of shape about it. I. Don't overthink it. Now, Paul Heyman's going to be here in a moment. If you have questions for the Oracle known as Paul Heyman. 1-800-9193776 we will put you on hold and line up. Some people just. Don't make a fool of yourself.

[Ty D. Butler]

Ok, now, is he going to be in character? Like, how does this work? Do I have to stand up and address myself or introduce myself?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Well, I think regardless, you do have to do that, but more times than not, yeah, he's gonna stay within character. He's not gonna break character.

[Ty D. Butler]

Because one time I was working, busted open. This is when I was at Sirius xm.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yep.

[Ty D. Butler]

And I tried to. And this is, this is so funny now thinking back on it. I tried to take a picture of Mark Henry just because I thought it was so cool. I was in a studio with Mark Henry to send it to my friends. He went off on me. And to this day, I don't know if he was Joking or if he was dead ass serious.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, Mark. It's crazy that Mark's one of those guys too. Like, I've seen it in interviews, like, with other people where he was like, no, he's a guy where he's usually pretty chill, but he'll snap you in half.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So Mark is my dude.

[Ty D. Butler]

Was he serious or not?

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's a good friend, but he does get like. Mark has a couple of funny things, like idiosyncrasies like that. First of all, he hates being touched. He hates strangers. Touching him is a real trigger for him. I remember once I saw him in the early years when I knew him. He showed up to an event that I was at. When I saw him walking through the crowd, I hit his arm, bruh. Before he knew it was me. The look of death that I got from him, it's actually funny, his level of intensity on that particular thing. So you took a picture, like, without him knowing?

[Ty D. Butler]

Yeah, he was standing in the hallway area. And again, I grew up a wrestling fan. I was like, yo, this is Mark Henry in the studio. This is Fire. Let me take a pic. Took a pic. He looked at me. He was like, don't take a picture of me. But I thought he was joking, but then I thought back. I'm like, was he joking?

[Peter Rosenberg]

He might not have been, I think. I think that some of the boys and girls have some lines of. They don't like it crossed because they're used to people crossing it. So, like, being. Having pictures taken of you when you're not posing for a picture is a. Like, in general, that's a weird thing. Now in your. In that setting, it wasn't a weird thing because you're at work, he's in the studio. It's not weird, but they have a history of people trying to, like, creep on them, and so they're more sensitive to stuff like that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, Like, I saw, like, a recent video, like, John Cena don't like his rounds. I think it was like, during fanatics fest, like, somebody like, snapped a picture from him. Like, he had a, like, approach him. I asked him, like, don't.

[Ty D. Butler]

This was. This was. This was a different.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I think comes because of those other things that he. There.

[Ty D. Butler]

He like working the show that you're on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, people get sensitive.

[Ty D. Butler]

Dave is, you know, Dave is, you know, having a good time, but I guess not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I had a situation where someone got so weird about a phone in a studio. I was a guest on Big Boy show and Big boy always comes off like Mr. Nice Happy, go lucky.

[Ty D. Butler]

He's not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean, him and I always have had a good relationship. But this story. You ever have a story with someone or at the time it just kind of happens, you're like, oh, that was annoying or weird. But then as the years go on, you look back at it and you're like, yo, that was whack, bro. You ever have that?

[Ty D. Butler]

The story I just told you about.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We bothered you later. Yeah, good point. But I can explain. I really can. He's. Mark's lovely, but he has had a lot of experiences that I think made him weird about that stuff. I had a friend who I brought with me to the radio station. She was driving me around and helping me out. Cool girl who was trying to get into hip hop, radio, stuff like that. And I brought her with me, and she was. Me and Cypher were there, and she came in the room in the studio with us, and at some point, I think either posted a photo from the studio or tweeted about being in the room, something like that. There'd be nothing to think of. And in the middle of the thing, while we're sitting there, Big Boy just like, excuse me, who are you? To her to the girl? And she was like. He was like, who are you? Did you post a picture on the radio station? She was like, yeah. And I don't want to make up the words that happened after that because I'll get it wrong, but I know that he kicked her out. And she was my guest with me, who was a guest on your show, and we worked for the same company. And you just kicked her out because she posted a photo in a radio studio? And who is the trifling person who's in the room with us who saw the picture online and sent it to you?

[Ty D. Butler]

Yeah, that's like.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Y' all are all trifling. That's very. And it's a radio studio. Nothing was violated. And I get to be annoyed with my younger self that I allowed myself to get played like that because she was with me. I should have seen that as personal disrespect. You don't if right now Paul Heyman brought. I believe he has his son with him. If Paul Heyman's son did something. I would never scold Paul Heyman's son.

[Ty D. Butler]

Kick him off the studio.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I mean, he happens to be a very cool kid, but he's actually a cool adult, young adult now. But either way, you respect your guests. That's like, it was just such disrespect.

[Ty D. Butler]

And now and then years later, it just.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It bubbles up. Well, yeah. And then I'll see Big Boy always acting like, all like Big Boy. And then I'm like, he's all friendly, and I'm like, now you're a weirdo, bro.

[Ty D. Butler]

So you got beef with Big Boy?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I would say beef is strong.

[Ty D. Butler]

Did I see you guys? I felt like something happened. I could totally be making this up.

[Paul Heyman]

No, don't.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's kind of day it's been.

[Ty D. Butler]

Totally be making this up. Where y' all had some. Some issue going on, me and Big Boy? Nah, not.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Not that I'm aware of. Except for the one I'm telling you right now. I do. I do, in retrospect, think that was super corny.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

See, But I do, like, there's a lot of, like, old heads and in radio that do kind of act like Big Boy, do that kind of thing where they try to, like, I guess, save this. The sanctity of what they thought radio was. And it kind of is, like you said, whack. Like. Like, I've seen guys that. I don't want to name drop anything but that act like that or does, like, some. But you're not crazy things.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But the wrestling business is one thing. We're talking about radio. It's barely even a real business to start out with. Speaking of. Speaking of a business. Oh, he's playing the music, too.

[Ty D. Butler]

Wow, he's here. This is the first time I've ever seen him.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Hey, Paul.

[Ty D. Butler]

Am I. We've never met before.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is Ty. Ty Butler is meeting Paul Heyman. Shaking that. What's up, man? Shaking the hands of the. Of the Oracle. As we speak. I am turning.

[Ty D. Butler]

We got to get you on the microphone. Audience can hear you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I. I injured my leg.

[Paul Heyman]

How'd you do that?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was so excited to my first day of work this past Monday. I'd been on paternity leave for a month, and I. Paternity leave?

[Paul Heyman]

Oh, come on.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Here we go.

[Paul Heyman]

I love paternity leave.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I did. I took a month.

[Paul Heyman]

How many diapers have you changed?

[Peter Rosenberg]

An endless amount.

[Paul Heyman]

I don't. I have zero belief. Thank you very much.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, come on. That is not true. You believe that I change diapers? Of course I do. I do.

[Paul Heyman]

Not the money you make. You don't have any nannies.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't. We had a night nurse, though, for the first month.

[Paul Heyman]

What was his name?

[Ty D. Butler]

Mel.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Melvin. I know. It was okay. It was Margaret.

[Paul Heyman]

I mean, it wouldn't have been misogynistic if I said, you know, that's a great point.

[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Peter Rosenberg]

You brought your lovely son here with you.

[Paul Heyman]

My lovely son?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Paul Heyman]

Handsome, striking, all those things. Ruthless. He better be in this world.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Did you change diapers when he was a small boy?

[Paul Heyman]

Damn right I did. And loved every moment of it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

By the way, people told me that they were like, oh, the diapers part is the worst. Now granted, she hasn't really started eating real food yet. She's just getting to it. When they're tiny I don't mind the diaper changing at all. It's part of the whole thing.

[Paul Heyman]

Wait till they're seven.

[Ty D. Butler]

I got great advice once. I think this might have been from Mike Tannenbaum actually. He said, when your first diaper change, be terrible at it so that your wife never wants you to do it again. I was like, it's pretty sound advice. I didn't take it.

[Paul Heyman]

It sounds like an honest, happy marriage. How long have you been divor?

[Ty D. Butler]

We actually been married for six years.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What about Mike T?

[Ty D. Butler]

I don't know.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Paul Heyman coming off of a wonderful SummerSlam weekend. And then I wake up. You probably knew about this because you're the oracle and you know everything. I had heard nothing about the ESPN thing that did not make it to my low level. And I wake up today to the news at like 6 in the morning. I see WWE ples are moving to ESPN's new direct to consumer platform. So before we get to SummerSlam and everything else going on in your world, Seth Rollins, and we just want to talk about your life, what were your thoughts on this move for WWE and espn?

[Paul Heyman]

Logical. Logical because the only constant in this world is change. And the definition of what we do constantly is changing, especially with the Unreal Show. And people are starting to realize just how mainstream we are. And at the same time, and it's just that all these universes are aligning at the same moment, people are starting to find out just how much sport is involved in what we do. You know, it became, well, is it fake sport? Is it, is it entertainment? Well, just because it's predetermined doesn't mean it's not sport. I've seen, and I mentioned this earlier today, I've seen men with super bowl rings or NBA championship rings or World Series rings or world champion boxers or Olympic athletes come in and they never even get the art of running the ropes properly. So what this is, is a very unique brand of sports. ESPN is the worldwide leader in sports coverage. You can't deny that what we do is part sport. And the audience has a voracious appetite for it and they're willing to spend money for it and they're willing to tune in to see it. Therefore, why would Jerry Patero, why would ESPN deny the audience what they want, which is WWE product? So I think it's a very smart move by espn. I think it's a very smart move by tko wwe. I think it's a natural fit.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's funny too, because, you know, in Ty and I working with ESPN for a while now. One thing that people forget is what the E in ESPN stands for. The entertainment. Part of this whole thing is the tissue. Right. And by the way, there is a long history at ESPN with professional wrestling on the air.

[Paul Heyman]

My first national exposure came when I was 21 years old and I was in Vern Gagne's AWA, which had an afternoon strip at 4pm Monday to Fridays on ESPN.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It was every day, huh?

[Paul Heyman]

Every day. They just kept repeating the last five episodes with new interviews, interspliced.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And what was your role on that.

[Paul Heyman]

Show, Paul E. Dangerously?

[Peter Rosenberg]

You were already in the. In the manager game.

[Paul Heyman]

I was already in the manager game.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And who did you have?

[Paul Heyman]

The original Midnight Express.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wow.

[Paul Heyman]

And for a little while, Adrian Adonis.

[Peter Rosenberg]

What year are we talking?

[Paul Heyman]

1987. July 87 to the end of the year. I walked out the night before New Year's Eve. 1987.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So Adonis went there after WrestleMania 3. This is the end. The end for him. Wow. And why'd you only last for that short a time with Vern Gagna?

[Paul Heyman]

Verne offered me a deal and wouldn't give my tag team, which was the original Midnight Express, a deal, and they were quitting. And I was young, and I know this will surprise people. I was brash and a tad of an irritant and had my own ideas about where the industry was headed. And I knew that if I didn't walk with them, I would never survive another locker room. The boys would always see me as just some office sellout. So how did you have.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Paul, how did you have the foresight? Because most people, I feel like Ty would have just kept the job. How did you know at 21, without a full understanding of the business yet? I mean, you had already spent time around it as a kid, but you already knew. That's such a thoughtful way to be at that age.

[Paul Heyman]

I don't know if it's thoughtful or if it's foresight as much as it is. My father grew up on Rochambeau Avenue in the Bronx. My father was a street kid from the Bronx who only got to go through law school because of the GI Bill because he served in the US Navy in World War II. Otherwise, he would never have had the money to get through law school. He went to City College, but my father. My father grew up in the Bronx. And my father was very, very, very, very, very, very street smart. So, I mean, we moved out of the Bronx when I was 4. So I can't tell you, like, you know, hey, listen, there's a lot of Bronx in me. There's not all my cousins very Bronx. Me, not so Bronx. But I was raised, you know, my father taught me street smarts. And everywhere we went, it was all about street smarts. You know, the Thomas Wayne story, you know the Batman origins, you know, the millionaire now today would be a billionaire in Gotham City. Takes his family to the theater. They're all wearing tuxedos. Cuts down an alleyway to get to the car because it's a shortcut. Gets robbed in the alleyway and killed. My father was always be wary of that. Understand that you have to smell trouble before it's there. Understand what alley not to walk down. And that also goes for business. That also goes for anything. Know what alley not to walk down. I knew that. How could the talent not resent me? I was 21 years old. I had much different ideas about this business than the standard old timers. And in the awa, there were a lot of old timers at the time because everybody else was being plucked away by Vince McMahon.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So.

[Paul Heyman]

I'm different, I'm new. And I'm getting two, three interviews per show because my interviews are so wild and so different than everybody else's that I was getting a lot of interview time. How could these guys that, you know, were bumping all over the country, all over the world, leaving pieces of their bodies and rings all around the place, not resent some from New York? I'm not supposed to say that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, it's okay.

[Paul Heyman]

We got it.

[Ty D. Butler]

It's all good.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But. Yeah, but we're live radio.

[Paul Heyman]

I can't say, no, don't say it again.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We're gonna run out of dump time. But that's a bad word. That's one of the words.

[Paul Heyman]

Stop, stop, stop. You can just by the way, edit the essays. You know, just, just, just a complete side note. That's way dated of a reference. Have you ever seen the clip of Buddy Hackett going on Johnny Carson using that word and saying. What do you mean? You can't use that word on television. Buttocks. And they told me to take this and it said it goes into buttocks. And, you know, and at the end he goes. And it would have been a much funnier joke if he just let me say. And he only says the word, you know, so, you know, props to Buddy Hackett.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Paul Heyman]

Boy, do we. Boy, do we. Do we. Fans of. Of Borscht Belt and Catskill's humor, miss him. So anyway, I didn't know we get to Borsch Belt. So here we are.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So, yeah. So you.

[Paul Heyman]

I was this young, arrogant New York astronaut. And. And how could they not resent.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Sure.

[Paul Heyman]

So Vern offered me a deal. My guys, we all kind of had a deal, but he offered me, like, a contract and a really good deal, and he didn't offer it to my team. And I just knew if I stayed and they put me with somebody else and these two veterans who didn't have. See another thing. When I joined the awa, I wasn't slated to be the manager of the original Midnight Express. That job was going to Percy Pringle, who later became known as Paul Bearer. And Tommy Rich went to Wahoo McDaniel, who was the booker at the time, the lead writer at the time, and said to Wahoo, did you know this guy from Memphis? He was my manager. And Memphis. And y' all need to get him now because he's just. He's different. I'm telling you, he's different. So they took a chance and pulled back the job from Percy and gave me the role. And then I debuted the Telephone. And I'm smacking people in the head with a telephone.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The old school cell phone.

[Paul Heyman]

And like the Gordon Gekko cell phone, not today's cell phone, which wouldn't hurt anybody unless you hit your kid with it, and in which case CPS comes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Knocking at the door.

[Paul Heyman]

Not that they've ever come knocked at my door, but if it ever hit my kids with a phone, no, because it wouldn't hurt them if I did. So anyway. So I. I knew. So these guys are either bleeding or getting beat by my phone. So my team always won because of me. If I just stay and they're out because they wanted to offer me a deal, because I got over, I became famous, I got popular or infamous because these guys are in the ring bumping, and I'm getting all the credit for it because I'm doing all the talking, and we're winning matches with my gimmick instead of their finish. And I don't leave with them, I'd be buried in every locker room I ever went to. I can't credit that to foresight. And I don't think it takes a lot of street smarts to see that. I understand how there are some dumb people. See, you're learning. Didn't go there. Didn't go there. There are some dumb astronauts out there that wouldn't know to do that. But I couldn't imagine anything else, so I was out. Long answer to it. A short question.

[Ty D. Butler]

I'm interested in your career arc because I think it's so fascinating. So how do we get to wcw? Ecw? How do we get from where you were in this story you described to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Where we are now from AWA to eventually wcw Talent and good looks, very much the good looks part particularly especially.

[Paul Heyman]

Left the awa, started wrestling, started wrestling, started working for an independent promotion that was based out of Marietta, Georgia called Southern Championship Wrestling from Georgia. And at the same time started booking Windy City Wrestling in Chicago, was there for five months, ended up being Eddie Gilbert's assistant booker for Continental Wrestling in Alabama while still booking Windy City in Chicago. And that's when Dusty Rhodes called me to come with my team from the awa. The original Midnight Express come to WCW because Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson had jumped to wwe and he thought that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The original Midnight Express would be. This would now be a good fit.

[Paul Heyman]

This would be. And he'd get Paulie Dangerously versus Jim Cornette. So it was Paulie Dangerously and his Midnight Express against Jim Cornette and his Midnight Express.

[Peter Rosenberg]

His name is Paul Heyman. You're going to hang out till the show ends at 7:00'. Clock. You good with that?

[Paul Heyman]

I can say later. Why are they throwing you off the.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Air at 7 if they want us out?

[Paul Heyman]

I'd like to know who makes that decision that you have to that you have a hard out at 7. Why can't you stay later than 7?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, you know, most days I'd say I wouldn't particularly be interested in staying past seven, but you're right. On a day like today, if I'm.

[Paul Heyman]

Willing to stay past seven, why shouldn't they be willing to keep you on the airpass?

[Peter Rosenberg]

And by the way, we're all now under the same tree to some extent.

[Paul Heyman]

That's correct.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's a great point.

[Paul Heyman]

We'll be promoting the premium. Ladies and gentlemen, Wrestlemania is coming up next year from Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas. It will be available here through all the different platforms on espn. And I will be here through, I don't know, midnight tonight, 1am promoting it on this radio.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Wow, we are really getting out early on the podcast.

[Paul Heyman]

Anybody that doesn't like that can kiss my kosher tukas.

[Peter Rosenberg]

We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

[Paul Heyman]

What'd you think I was gonna say now?

[Peter Rosenberg]

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[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I didn't listen to anything you just said.

[Don Hahn]

Catch the show on demand whenever you want. Just subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, ladies and gentlemen, as we spend this last part of the show today in the wonderful, brilliant sculpting hands of the oracle, Paul Heyman.

[Ty D. Butler]

I think he caught himself handsome too.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Oh, and obviously now Handsome Heyman. That's what that's he's done Double H as he's known. There's so many things I could talk to you about because historically there's even though we've done your history many times, you and I over the years, there's always more stuff I want to ask you. But at the same time, when it comes to current events, I want to ask you this past weekend, I don't care who says what. For me, the highlight of the weekend was Saturday night. And it was when I realized when it started crossing my mind that Seth Rollins could appear. Now I've already told this name drop of a story on the air, so I'll tell it to you. So we have full stuff. I saw Seth Rollins the night before WrestleMania in a very private setting in which he showed up with his crutches and his big his brace, which was much more significant than the one I was prescribed today. And his injury never came up. But at that point it's 2025 and I just said, oh, it's a bummer that he's injured. And I was sitting at the post show set with Biggie. And of course Biggie, for people listening is another wrestler and future hall of Famer and wonderful man.

[Paul Heyman]

And a magnificent analyst.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's Gotten. Hasn't he gotten so good?

[Paul Heyman]

I am. I'm the world's biggest Big E fan. I really am in great respect for that man as well.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, he's an unbelievable human. And he's become. Because I remember when he first started, he was brand new at it. His two year evolution as an analyst has been he's a natural. So I'm sitting there with Big E and he goes, we're talking. He goes, what do you think's gonna happen? And I said, I don't know. I said, I think. I think Gunther's gonna win here. I don't see Punk. I don't think the Punk title story ends tonight. And he said, well, what about a cash in? And I went, ha ha ha. Oh, Big E, you silly big man. I saw Seth Rollins last night. There will be no cash in. He is on the shelf. And he went, well, did he tell you anything? And I said, no. And he said, well, Big E said, I intentionally didn't ask him anything because I don't want to know anything. But I certainly never heard a confirmation that he got surgery. He said, don't those things normally get out?

[Paul Heyman]

Now?

[Peter Rosenberg]

When one of the boys or girls goes to James Andrews or whoever the new guy is, we usually find out. We didn't find out. I went, that's interesting. And then as it goes on and I'm seeing the glorious moment for CM Punk, I just started to cross my mind. There's no way CM Punk is having this moment of glory right now. Can't be. Can't be. Music hits, Rollins comes out, drops the crutches. We're off to the races. Did it feel like a throwback sort of moment to you where you really felt like, as smart as the Internet is these days, even the same week where the curtain was lifted on the show. Unreal. The same week you guys pulled off this old school ruse, did it feel especially satisfying?

[Paul Heyman]

That's what made it. What's the word I'm looking for? Infinitely more satisfying is that on the very week that we go out of our way to demonstrate and release and promote and publicize and market and spotlight a show that is designed to let you know the inner workings of the industry and be transparent to the planning that goes into everything. That just an old. Hey, this is the oldest school angle from the territories. The heel comes out on Saturday morning TV and says, I can't work with you, Mr. Number One, Babyface. I broke my arm. Oh, I broke my arm. But my man, the Masked Executioner or the Masked Assassin, or the masked Russian you know is here to take you on and beat your brains in. Go get a masked executioner. And the Executioner gets in the ring with the top Baby Face. And the Babyface mops the floor of the Executioner. And the heel takes off the sling and reveals that his arm is not hurt and goes in the ring and beats the living crap out of the baby Face. It's the oldest ruse in the business. I did it in ECW. I just made it last five weeks with the Sandman. Blinding in 1994, when Tommy Dreamer hit the Sandman with a cane in the ift, knocking the cigarette into his eye. And then the Sandman was not seen around town in Philadelphia, where he's always seen. We're getting signaled by somebody. What did I say wrong now?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, no. He was just telling me something.

[Paul Heyman]

Did I say he was feeding? Am I not allowed to say town now?

[Peter Rosenberg]

No, no, you're town.

[Paul Heyman]

A band word town. Should I say village? So Sandman wasn't seen around the village of Philadelphia.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Paul Heyman]

And you know, so it's the same thing. And then revealed the fact that he wasn't blind and pulled the ruse and caned Tommy Dreamer half to death.

[Peter Rosenberg]

But like this one, it just seemed like it worked so well. Like for whatever reason, over the last several weeks, everyone kind of.

[Paul Heyman]

Seth Rollins is a magnificent performer. And when he came off those ropes and you could already see the knee buckling, he put such attention to detail before revealing himself on the cash in to be the world's biggest cash hole. See, I can say that word. I can say that word on ESPN Radio. Seth Rollins is a cash hole.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It was so good. It was just. It was just. So you were watching, right?

[Ty D. Butler]

Of course I watched Saturday night. I want to get your thoughts on Sunday night because we talked about this on Monday and I felt like Cody Rhodes, you know, he was supposed to have his moment, but in comes Brock Lesnar. So I want to get your thoughts on everything that happened on Sunday night. Because Brock Lesnar was someone you did.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Manage before quite a bit.

[Paul Heyman]

Well, I would beg to differ. I was never Brock Lesnar's manager. I was his advocate.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's right. He was the advocate.

[Paul Heyman]

I've taken the role of manager and I have evolved it multiple levels past what it used to be, a manager. Just it dates back to the 80s when I broke in in 1987. I was told by many people that I should be a color commentator, which I did multiple times in WCW and WWE and in wwe. And the reason why I was told to become to be a color commentator is because I was told back in 1987 when I debuted, the role of the manager is passe. It's dead. It's being phased out. There won't be any more male managers by the time we hit 1990 and by the time we get to the middle of the 90s, there just won't be any more managers. So I evolved the role to advocate. From advocate, I went on to special counsel. Special counsel to wiseman. From wise men to oracle. So I'm now four generations past manager. First generation was Brock Lesnar's advocate. Cody Rhodes had his moment. In fact, Cody Rhodes had multiple moments. Cody Rhodes had his moment simply walking down the aisle in the main event of the very first two night, SummerSlam. Cody Rhodes had his moment beating John Cena. Cody Rhodes had his moment lifting the championship in the air that he has not had an opportunity to do so since WrestleMania. Cody Rhodes had his moment making peace with John Cena in the same way that led to John Cena turning on Cody Rhodes. He had full closure now that that part of the story. Oh, and Cody Rhodes had the privilege and the honor of then yielding the ring to John Cena so that the audience had a moment with Cena alone to say in John Cena's final appearance in a ring at MetLife Stadium, his final appearance in a ring at SummerSlam. Thank you, Cena. I think Cody Rhodes had every moment he could possibly have. Now that that was over, onto new business. We don't live in the past for those of you listening on the radio, and since this is a radio show, I presume that's 100% of you right now. I just clapped my hands. Okay, it's over. Now what? So that's the past. It's the immediate past, but it's the past. So what more could Cody have done? If he did anything else, he'd overstay his welcome. But we got more business to do. We have Raw the next night. We have Smackdown this Friday. We have Premium Live events which will soon be coming right here to espn, I might add.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That's right.

[Paul Heyman]

So we have to get onto that business. John Cena standing in the ring by himself listening to people say thank you, Cena is a great moment, but it's not gonna sell any tickets the next day, the next week, the next month to the next Premium Live event.

[Peter Rosenberg]

This is a tough one, but you are want to give an honest answer. You have had a really close relationships with all the people you've worked with one of my favorite things to observe from the proximity that I'm given at my job at WWE is to see how you really. How art imitates life and life imitates art, and you become a very intimate part of the life of everyone you work with. I don't know what comes first. I just know when I. When they say, hey, we want to do something on the. On the pre show with. With so and so. Someone's got to go talk to Paul. Paul will actually be making the decision on things. Roman Reigns. That's not part of the storyline. That is Paul Heyman the person deciding whether Roman is going to do that thing on that show that day. And you are actually helping manage that person's life. It's a real relationship you have with these guys. Is there one relationship that stands out like head and shoulders above the rest in terms of the impact on your life?

[Paul Heyman]

That's like asking which one of my children I love more?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Well, you have to say your son.

[Ty D. Butler]

He's here.

[Paul Heyman]

But my daughter's listening.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So you can't. It's just. It's just too close.

[Paul Heyman]

It's not that it's too close. It's also different. My relationship with Brock Lesnar is much different than my relationship with my tribal chief, Roman Reigns. And my relationship with my tribal chief, Roman Reigns, will always be different than my relationship with my best friend in the world, CM Punk. And my relationship with my best friend in the world, CM Punk, will always be different than my relationship with the reigning, defending undisputed heavyweight Champion of the world, Seth Rollins, which is always going to be different than my relationship with the future of wwe, Bron Breakker. My relationship with these people is all different because they're all different, because they all have different desires and different wants and different needs and different designs on why they're here. What motivates Brock Lesnar does not necessarily motivate Roman Reigns. And what motivates Roman Reigns and inspires Roman Reigns does not necessarily motivate or inspire Brock Lesnar or CM Punk or Seth Rollins or Bron Breaker or Bronson Reed. The same way my son's ambitions in life do not mirror my daughter's. My daughter's ambitions in life do not mirror my son's. That doesn't mean either one of their ambitions outweighs the other. I have to be equally passionate about both of their trajectories in life, but I have to approach them differently because they're different people. So when they come to me and they say, well, we want this you know, with Brock Lesnar. Well, I know what Brock wants, and then I know how Brock thinks, so I know immediately whether. Well, that's acceptable or that's not acceptable. Hey, I know. I know it's only 15 minutes before his match, but can we get Brock over to do some pictures? No, no, no, no. That. That's not happening. Hey, could we get Brock to do this? Well, you know what? He has two hours. He just ate. Yes, you could do that. With Roman, it's a different process. With Seth, it's a different process. With Punk, it's different. So I have to be real with all of them, and yet I have to be completely different with all of them without ever losing. Losing. Being authentic with each of them. Because the way I talk with Brock is different than the way I talk with Roman Reigns or that I talk with CM Punk or that I talk with Seth Rollins or with Bronson Reed or with Bron Breaker, because they're different people. I have to. But at the same time, ask Martin Scorsese. Ask Clint Eastwood as a director. Ask Francis Ford Coppola as. Ask Chris Nolan. Ask these people.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I'm asking you one question about these guys before we break. Can you tell us, because they all are kind of serious in their own way. Who would you describe Forced to choose who is the most fun loving of that group of four you just mentioned? Punk, Brock, Seth, Roman.

[Paul Heyman]

Well, see, let me answer it this way, if I may, and I'm not deflecting or avoiding. I'm giving you an honest answer. But it's complicated. You know, this is the old it's complicated, okay? When I get to work with people of that magnitude, of that level of greatness, it's a Scorsese working with a De niro or a DiCaprio. It's Coppola getting in a room with Brando. I have to understand their nuances and their idiosyncrasies, but I get to see them with the guard down, too. So what I tell them is we have to be. And I don't mean on a sexual basis, but on a personal and professional basis. We're gonna have to be more intimate with each other than you are with your own wives. I'm gonna have to know your fears. I'm gonna have to know childhood trauma that you don't want to talk about. I'm gonna have to know what overcompensatory behavior has led you to be this level of great. Because nobody reaches that level of great without having overcompensatory behavior. So that's I'm going to need to know everything that I can do to pull, to pull you in different directions, to push the buttons, to squeeze the trigger. Like if I want you to cry on television, I got to know, oh, my dog died at 7 and I never got okay, you know, oh, this happened to my sister. Oh, this happened to my mother, my father. I held this person in my arms when they died. So I need to be able to go to them and just whisper. I want you to remember the moment that this happened and they start crying. I need to know how to make them mad. I need to know. Just walk up and go, you know, you know Ralph Kabuski. Oh, that son of a. You know, I knew Kabuski would be so. So in the same way I know them all in. In the guise of when they pursue loving fun and fun loving. Brock Lesnar can be a whooping, hollering cowboy. Roman Reigns is a gregarious Samoan. That is the life of the party at a barbecue. If Jimmy USO's not there, then it's all Jimmy. Seth Rollins is a blast if you know him, but he's not going to let you in on that until you really, really, really get to know him. And CM Punk is, is, is just a moody SOB that listens to really angry music that likes to be angry. So if you're angry with him, he.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I still can't get, I literally cannot get a read on punk from time to time that I see him. This is going back now 15 years.

[Paul Heyman]

Walk up to him with your grapes about the world and you will, you will bond with that.

[Peter Rosenberg]

By the way, that is such a good point. If him and I lined, that conversation would be the best conversation for us to have.

[Paul Heyman]

How do you make friends with a punk rocker?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Right?

[Paul Heyman]

Bitch about something, right? The world needs to be overthrown. This is the right direction of the universe. Yes. You know, I mean, how do you become friends with that rebel? How do you become friends with a rebel? Rebel against something.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So we pushed our stops up, but that means we're still down to four minutes. Is there anyone in professional wrestling right now with a more a higher ceiling for mainstream success than Rhea Ripley?

[Paul Heyman]

Besides Paul Heyman?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course. It's already happened for Paul.

[Paul Heyman]

I think Rhea Ripley has, has besides multiple WrestleMania main events ahead of her in her life. She's a movie star. But can't you say the same thing about Roman Reigns?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Sure.

[Paul Heyman]

I, I think I would love to see CM Punk take on a dramatic role in a streaming series in a.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You Think he wants that? I don't get the gauge on whether or not Punk actually truly wants more than wrestling.

[Paul Heyman]

I think Phil Brooks right now is Gary oldman in the 1990s. I think he wants to earn his chops. I think he wants to do a lot of indie films that give him the perspective of understanding the movies and filmmaking before he walks on the set of 100 or 200 or $300 million film. Gary Oldman in the early 90s did Sid and Nancy. True Romance. The Professional before he ever got to what was the movie? No, Romeo was Bleeding before he ever did the big budget one by Luc Besson with Bruce Willis and Chris Wallace.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You're not talking the fifth element. Fifth Element, right.

[Paul Heyman]

So before he got to a big budget movie like the Fifth Element, he did, you know, he did all these other movies. Yeah, and he was the king of the indie films. True Romance. Well, that, I mean, that was a Tony Scott movie, but, but, but still that was his role. Was, was, was not a mainstream role when he played Drexel Spivey. And I think, I think that's Phil Brooks. He wants to really understand the medium before he goes, because it's hard to.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Go from being one of the guys who's most experienced and most knowledgeable in the business you're in now to then stepping into a place where, like, you will be the least experienced and knowledgeable if you don't haven't done the work.

[Paul Heyman]

Yeah, but then again, like I watched Adrien Brody on Peaky Blinders, and my God, what a season he delivered as opposition to Cillian Murphy and Tom Hardy. And every time I watched it, I kept saying, man, can you imagine Punk in this role? He wouldn't play, you know, the New York Italian guy, but can you imagine a Chicago gangster showing up there and he played that Chicago gangster. I mean, I could just see Punk in that role. So I think he has the chops and I think he's taking his time and paying his dues and learning the industry.

[Peter Rosenberg]

All right, we have 45 seconds. I'm sorry, Ty. The two loudmouth Jews just started rambling. And here we are now with 40.

[Ty D. Butler]

Seconds left, we're going to say, see you on some more shows. Now, does that mean with this whole, you know, partnership, we're gonna get you on some more?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think there will be more. Paul Heyman on espn.

[Ty D. Butler]

We need that personality.

[Paul Heyman]

I don't know why it took so long for Rosenberg to invite me on here.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You've done every show I've ever been on. My entire career I've had you on. You name the thing I've done, you have been on it.

[Paul Heyman]

Oh, look, we're out of time. 2019.

[Peter Rosenberg]

He's watching the it's official. WWE ples coming to ESPN in 2026. If you have not for some reason watch SummerSlam on Peacock over the weekend, I suggest you go watch it. Of course, I recommend WWE Evolve tonight on Tubi with yours truly. Paul, thank you so much. See you tomorrow, everyone.

[Don Hahn]

Thanks for listening to the Don Hahn and Rosenberg podcast.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't want to know how the sausage is made, man. I just want to know.

[Paul Heyman]

It's good.

[Don Hahn]

Here we more of Don Allen and Peter weekday afternoon starting at 3 on 8 80, ESPN, the ESPN New York app, and your smart speakers.