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The PM Podcast
$1 Trillion for Healing: A Conversation with Edgar Villanueva, CEO of the Decolonizing Wealth Project
00:54:09
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- [00:00]
A
We love kind of decorating our homes as a thing because it is like this, it's like our sanctuary. And I was just with my mother last week, last weekend, and we were out shopping. I was kind of helping her change out a few things in the house, you know, and she said she needed some decorative pillows. And I found a closet. It was like a homegoods in there. It was like all of these pillows, like every color. I'm like, you don't need any more pillows. No more pillows, no more linens. And I, you know, and I find myself, I'm the same way. I didn't know really realize that, but when people come over, they're like, why do you have so many pillows on bed? Like so. But it is like we love kind of building a nest of peace here. So it's like giving, giving, but also making sure that we are charged up and keeping ourselves sustained.
- [00:51]
B
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Evertru Studios, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. My guest today is Edgar Villanueva, award winning author, speaker, strategist and founder and CEO of the Decolonizing Wealth Project and Liberated Capital. An enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe, Edgar has become one of the leading voices challenging philanthropy to rethink its relationship with wealth, power, healing and reparative action. His best selling book, Decolonizing wealth sparked conversations across the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors about generosity, justice and what it means to repair harm through the movement of money. Today, through the Decolonizing Wealth Project, Edgar is leading MoonShot, an ambitious 10 year effort to catalyze $1 trillion in reparative giving grounded in dignity, reciprocity and healing. In this episode, we talk about Edgar's journey from home to national leadership, the spiritual dimensions of money and philanthropy, the resistance in response to his work, what reparative philanthropy actually means in practice, and why he believes healing must sit at the center of the conversation about wealth.
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C
Thank you for taking time to talk about something which you've talked about before and that's this unique personal journey that you have and how it intersects with your work in philanthropy, but also what you're trying to, I think what you're trying to bring to philanthropy. In the beginning of your book, you talk just in the very, very beginning about family members, but I don't know where they really play in your life. And I'd love to know more about your family if you're willing to share that.
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A
Sure, absolutely. So I, I do talk about my mother in the book and probably mention her on a stage once a week. I carry her with me. And so growing up was just my mom and me, so a really small family. I do have some siblings that I didn't grow up with. But so my, My mom is, is. Is really was the center of my life as a kid. Her role modeling and teachings and way of being. You know, I literally am becoming my mother more and more every single day, which I, which I actually love. You know, I'm a proud mama's boy. So, yeah, my mom is just a really inspirational person. She had me when she was 15 years old.
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C
Oh my.
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A
And overcame all types of things and you know, you know, poverty and just in all the things that can come with extreme poverty and really found a way to push through that and to get some education for herself. She was hardworking, three jobs and just a super caring person. And so the way that she moved through community and loved others and took care of folks, I often say I didn't really understand how poor we were because it was. We were always helping people who were worse off. And that sense of an obligation of taking care of our neighbors was just something that I saw her do and something that she made me do as a kid. It wasn't like we spent the weekend every Saturday in the neighborhood visiting people and giving kids candy and hugging them and just kind of checking on folks. And a lot of that was also attached to our church. My mom converted to, you know, being a born again Christian and was really involved in a lot of different ministries and outreach that the church connected to the church. But that was where I learned a lot about service and, and so, yeah, she is, is still. Is the, the biggest influence on my life.
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C
You said you become more and more like her every day. In, in what way?
- [05:09]
A
You know, one. In appearance, I look a lot like my mother. And I, I just definitely see that in the mirror as I am approaching a big birthday. I'm like, I'm literally becoming physically this person, it looks like. But I think, you know, my mother is a person who is just really. She has a lot of discernment about people that she's around and, and how she spends her energy and she's a big protector of her peace. And you know, when you come out of situations, you know, as a child where there's a lot of drama, trauma and things going on and she's found a way to, to really connect to her inner peace and to maintain a Peaceful household. And while there may be all kinds of things going on in the family and, and whatnot, there's always been sort of a wall around our home as a place of peace and not allowing people to bring all of that stress, you know, here. And, and so I, I, I find that I'm very similar. I, peace is the most important thing in my life and protecting that peace and my energy and having that balance of giving, giving, giving and wanting to help as many people as we can, but also finding a time to come back and retreat and into a peaceful home. So we love kind of decorating our homes as a thing because it is like this, it's like our sanctuary. And I was just with my mother last weekend and we were out shopping. I was kind of helping her, you know, change out a few things in the house, you know, and she said she needed some decorative pillows. And I found a closet that had, it was like a home goods in there. It was like all of these pillows, like every color. I'm like, you don't need pillows. No more pillows, no more linens. And I, you know, and I find myself, I'm the same way. I didn't know really realize that, but when people come over, they're like, why do you have so many pillows? Like, literally they're like eight pillows. But so, but it is like we love kind of building a nest of peace here. So it's like giving and giving, but also making sure that we are charged up and keeping ourselves sustained.
- [07:43]
C
Yeah. Which is not easy to do if you're giving all the time. But if you're giving from a place of love and comfort, I guess it makes it a little easier. I'm going to have the image of pillows in my mind now all day. Well, now you said she was a born again Christian and became we become born again Christians, I guess is the right way to think about that. So she became a born again Christian. Was that also part of your journey? Because I know later, of course, you went into the seminary and so how did that inform your own thoughts about where spirituality and specifically Christianity flow into your thinking?
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A
Yeah, you know, growing up, the church was the center of our lives. So yeah, my grandfather was the first to convert and so and specifically to a pen. Pentecostal church within Christianity. And for folks who may not know, Pentecostal is very lively church. Like very like I love. So I was very involved in music growing up. I still, although I don't attend church regularly anywhere, I still am fond of gospel music and will, you know, it Lifts me up to kind of, you know, turn on some music here and there. But yeah, it was a place where, you know, as a young person, I think I, there was a lot of discipline. There was a lot of, you know, opportunities to be involved in all kinds of things. I learned American Sign Language in the church and later worked as an interpreter. When I was in college, we had all these ministries. You know, I was in the drama ministry. I was singing. I was so I, I was sort of on the stage doing something all the time at the church every night of the week for something. And it was, yeah, so it was really, it was, you know, it helped me build skills. It was a community and instilled in me this sense of, you know, responsibility. Now, the, the Pentecostal Church was, is really about evangelism and, you know, saving souls and taking the gospel into all the world. That, you know, there was a lot of training around that and maybe I found some of that useful in terms of trying to spread this gospel of decolonizing wealth everywhere. But so, you know, I had a really positive experience with church, although, you know, there are things that I have had to unlearn and detach from and don't really stand by. But in general, it was a really positive force in our lives. And, you know, and even around money. I learned a lot about money in church. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Bible talks about money more than any other subject, even more than like, love and things like that. It's, it's a really important subject. And we, so we talked about it in church quite a bit. And of course our, our church taught tithing. So when I first got a job when I was 14 or 15, I, you know, I gave my 10%. And that was, that's a practice that I, you know, still influences me today to, to give a minimum 10% back of my income. And so, yeah, lots of things there. I will say too, that, you know, I, I, I did feel this, this calling to want to be in community professionally. I didn't know about the nonprofit sector at all, you know, when I, when it was time to go to college. So the church was all I knew. That's where we had been recipients of generosity and where we had given. And so I did go to seminary because I felt like, oh, I want to do this full time. I want to help others. And when I got to seminary, I learned, you know, at some point that, oh, this is not going to work out for me, given who I am. And I'm not Completely aligned with all the things they teach there and, you know, found my way to the nonprofit sector. But it was. I will say that what I did find in church, beyond sort of the skills and sort of, you know, the opportunities to learn about a lot of these topics, I did discover spirit in church and sort of learning to tap into that inner, you know, voice and that. That intuition that is inside of us, and very early on and learned how to use that as sort of a guide in my life. And that's something that I felt like it actually guided me away from that church and has guided me to where I am today. And I still really rely heavily on that. And I seek the wisdom of lots of elders and. And folks. But there's also a process, a way that I go about making sure I'm in tune with my own intuition and spirit that I think is a really powerful tool that we all have to guide us through life.
- [12:52]
C
There's. There's a lot baked into what you just said, and one part of it which we haven't talked about, but I know you've talked about in the book and in speeches, is being a part of the Lumbee nation. I don't know if you use that phrase, the nation, but the. What you just described in terms of the church, it didn't have that reference at all. So, first of all, I should just ask you about your connection to the tribe, to that culture, to your understanding of it when that came about, but also how that intersected, if at all, with this spiritual journey, especially the Christian one, which, again, you mentioned misalignment. We can get into that if you want. But how those two things intersected and then maybe drifted from one another.
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A
Yeah, it's a really good question. So, yeah, I am enrolled in the Lumbee tribe. We won federal recognition last December after, like, 130 years of fighting for that. So something. We're really proud. And I'm very, very involved, very connected when. Although I didn't grow up in the tribal community, which is in Robinson County, North Carolina, grew up in, you know, just about an hour, hour and a half away. I spent a lot of summers and just, you know, lots of family there, so a lot of time in the community. The tribe itself, in our community, is actually very Christian. And it's. It's something that is surprising to folks, but being in the south, there's a history there around how a lot of this came to be. But, you know, we. Indigenous religions, native religions were outlawed. We weren't allowed to practice those religions. And so with colonization and all those things being taken away, you know, and Christianity was sort of forced upon folks. It was a part of their colonization process. It is something that is the pervasive faith of my community. And in Robinson county there, I mean, there's a church on every corner. It's a very. A very churchgoing population, very Christian. And one thing that actually surprised me, as someone who was really in the church at that time as well, when I went to do my paperwork to enroll in the tribe. So, you know, there's a tribal enrollment process. You have to bring all these family records and all and all of that. As I was completing the application, one of the questions was, what church do I go to? And I thought that was really bizarre. I was like, really bizarre. And they wanted to know which church I went to in that county. And I said, well, I actually live our way, so I go to a church over there. Is that okay? And they were like, well, when you come home, what church do you go to? And I was like. So I had to, like, remember sort of a family church where, you know, there are, like, family reunions and. And, you know, when a lot of folks, when they pass away, that's where they're buried. So there is. There is a. A deep attachment. Our. You know, we've previous chairmans of our tribe have read from the Bible, you know, for Christmas and those kinds of things. So that was a question I actually struggled with. And as I've, you know, as I was becoming an adult and just digging deeper and deeper to, you know, learn about my history and. And ways of being, and I met with a woman and Donna Chavis from my tribe and kind of asked her these questions at one point, and, like, how can we be, like, Native and Christian? Is that sort of. You know. And, you know, the wonderful thing about being Native is we can be all the things. We are very expansive. We are not binary. And we can. You know, being a Christian doesn't make you any less Native than, you know, not being a Christian. But I think that what you'll find in my community is that sort of, you know, the widespread sort of faith tradition, but there's also a spiritual tradition there, and we do lots of cultural events. We have powwow. So I actually think there's a difference between religion and spirit. There is a difference, and religion is sort of. These are teachings and sort of like, guidelines and sort of things to believe. Where I think spirit is this interconnecting, invisible force around us that connects us to each other, to Ourselves and nature that is guiding us towards action. And in some places there might be a church, for example, where Spirit is operating there. And Spirit also operates in other places outside of those communities in nature, in a girls trip like, you know, away in ceremony. It's, it's, it's just really everywhere. So that's been one of my biggest learnings growing up in a church that was a Spirit filled church, so to say, so to speak, where I, I was kind of taught that that was the only place that spirit existed. And outside of that it didn't. And I had. That's part of my unlearning and decolonizing. It's like, no, there's some spirit there, but spirit is just everywhere. We can't put it in a box. And it's, it's inside of us, it is a part of us. And I've learned really to experience spirit and myself in nature, in the small things, you know, and in a quiet moment at home in meditation, however, you know, folks may access that. And I think that's where, you know, it's, that's, that's the thing that I'm really most interested in because spirit exists outside of any teaching. And some of those teachings have been weaponized and are harmful. But spirit is not harmful. It's a part of our being and who we are and only wants the best for us and to guide us toward goodness.
- [18:56]
C
How difficult was it to break out of the set of rules? I mean that were probably there present both in the religion but, but they always exist for us in some form, no matter how loving our families, maybe with our family, with our community, with the tribe. I mean there's always a set of rules. Maybe it's written, maybe it's not. But you definitely went on your own journey, starting I guess with seminary and then moving from that into this larger exploration of health and then moving on from that definition, that box of what health is and how to explore it to the new ones. How difficult was it to break through every single time? Or was that, is that a right, the right description?
- [19:37]
A
I mean that kind of feels right, you know, looking back, it feels right. But when you're in it, it's, you know, I don't, I didn't know if I was breaking through or breaking down. There's somebody, but you know, it. I, I think that what I'm learning about, about my journey is that there were many times where I did, I felt like I didn't belong. And so, you know, in, in, in the Pentecostal Church Where I, you know, was in seminary. I, I, you know, I'm gay, and I really had to hide that part of myself. I went to conversion therapy. I did all the things to try to pray the gay away. In a certain point in time where I'm like, it's not going away, then I knew that, you know, I, I was not going to be able to be a part of that community anymore. And I was, you know, I didn't belong, and people were very loving. I didn't really. I didn't experience a lot of the painful things that a lot of, you know, queer folks do in faith communities. So I'm thankful for that. But it was definitely, you know, I knew that I had to take a different path. And so that it is. It is sad. It is hard to not feel accepted in a community that, especially for me, that was like, you know, like my whole world as a child and, you know, to, To. To go to church and be a part of community that you're always going to feel like you're. You're less than, or there's something wrong with you, or you have this sin in your life that you need to deal with. And so, but from that, from that sense of not belonging, it pushed me to. To create a place where I do belong. And I would say that's probably true for in work and working in philanthropy and feeling a major sense of being other in the sector and not belonging and something not quite fitting about the way that it was structured and what I thought my job was to do, that I had the opportunity from that deep sense of not belonging to create. And I think that from those, Those wounds and the sadness and of not fitting in, that can be channeled toward, like, well, let's create a place that we do fit in that can also be a home for a lot of other people. And I didn't realize that until recently. I was, I was thinking about, you know, the work we do at DWP and kind of what my journey has been. I was like, it really is sort of this confluence of, like, we created a new way to do philanthropy that is so inclusive of. And then also, in a sense, this is like a spiritual community and movement that we're part of. So it's. Yeah. So I think that, you know, paying attention to when, you know, those, Those shadows in our lives and those hard times and like, what are, what is the opportunity or what is spirit calling us to create out of that, that might be the place that we can be. We can belong and create a space for others to belong.
- [22:47]
C
Yeah, it sounds like a wonderful ground from which to build the empathy that you're talking about now, but you've written about. And it's not always, I don't see it everywhere, whether across the political spectrum, the spiritual spectrum, often there is a tendency, or at least I feel that there's often a tendency towards judgment rather than just letting people speak their minds. I don't know if you felt that, but you certainly seem to express that in your, in your book, talking about how it's important to kind of make space, I guess, for people on their, on their journey. Is that, is that right?
- [23:31]
A
Yeah. You know, I think, I think about this a lot, that we really, we all really can learn to extend more grace to others. I think because of my journey of being in this sort of right wing evangelical community growing up and coming out of that. You know, when I left the church, I left North Carolina, I moved to Seattle, and it could not have been a more different place. Right. And I was working in a very progressive organization and my politics, you know, had changed. And, and in that work I got to really build relationships and be close to a lot of the prolific movement builders in this country that I was supporting. And I just always sort of compared these two worlds. Right. And so a lot of the folks that are organizing or trying to influence sort of the world that I came out of, and I just sort of notice that sometimes they're sort of misconceptions or ways that people think about the other that I'm like, you know, there's, there's good people over there, they're well meaning folks. And I do think there's a way that we could probably bring people to our, our, our way of thinking or to our side, but there's, we have to have on ramps for folks in this work. And so I think that, you know, in an age of council cancel culture and just sort of the, you know, policing of purity testing and all of that has really created a lot of a sense of not belonging. And even among folks who are in the movement, I think that as progressives is a place where we really struggle is to have unity and to be in solidarity with each other. It's a lot of, it's a lot of infighting. And so, yeah, I kind of, I kind of hold those two realities a lot. And you know, I've been a part of so many conversations about narrative change and we just need to get the framing right and, and I kind of bring my mother with me and you know, in my in my heart and into the room often. And I think about, you know, with that would my mother understand what they were talking about, you know, with my family and the church I came from, really is this a way that they would come around to support this issue? But yeah, there's a lot of us versus them and I think that in order to win, we've just got to be a builder tent. And I'm not saying that we let everyone into our tent. We don't want to welcome folks who are actively trying to harm us. But I do believe I am a testimony of someone who changed, who came around and, and that is because I had a lot of teachers and people who had grace and taught me and didn't kick me out the first time I made a mistake and, or use, you know, the wrong terminology. And because of that I was able to grow and learn. And it's funny because a lot of folks have no idea that I actually came from that world. It's just, they just know. Progressive Edgar, you know, and no, I, you know, I, when I first registered a vote, I was a register as a Republican because that was just the way it was when you were in the church back then. It was automatic thing and, and I, you know, was not, you know, politicized at the time. And it took, it took loving people and in places where I was, where I began to see and understand inequality and even though I, I was living in poverty and came, you know, a person who was harmed by these systems, I didn't quite understand and needed to be taught and shown and then, you know, and also given the space to mess up. And so I really long for opportunities to bring folks in and having accessible language and ways and love. Love is the way that we bring folks and grace and also along for more that among us who are so called progressive that we can really just hold the complexities of all of our identities and be supportive. And I've been called out here and there for not paying enough attention to this community or that community in the work. And we're all doing the best that we can with what we got. And I do feel like the tide is turning. I think the last election has really taught us that in the ways that folks may have left the Democratic Party that maybe something's missing. I think that we could work on a sense of belonging and inclusion and I feel like a lot of the things that are important like, like, you know, faith, spirituality, belonging, that those things are being co opted and used as political organizing tools by the right and it's one reason I think they're winning and we're seeing a lot of growth there. And that makes me really sad because these are really amazing tools that are also accessible to us, and we have used them in the past. But I think for some reason we've gone to a place to be so elite and so heady and in our work that we're missing the spirit and heart. We can beef that up in our approach, and that would help us do this work a lot more effectively and I think make this work a lot more joyful for us as well.
- [29:34]
C
Yeah, as you were talking about that narrative framing and kind of the policing of language, all these things. And you do reference those in the book, too, both on the philanthropy side, the way people would kind of help you to retailer your language in the Reynolds environment versus maybe what people wanted to hear in Seattle. I'm sure you've encountered that in both those environments. For those who are just listening and not seeing. You're wearing the decolonizer shirt right there. And it is trademarked, too, which makes sense, that phrase and other ones that. That you have not just used, but you've defined, which is so helpful to a conversation, to define terms. Do you get pushback on that now? I mean, across the spectrum? Because I'm sure that it raises lots of feelings, all the ones you talk about towards the end of the book, you know, almost the seven stages of grief or whatever. Because when people encounter that concept that they live with, maybe a colonized mindset, that can be very uncomfortable, especially if it's being. If they feel like someone has told them that rather than they have discovered it for themselves. Where do you find that the language you're using today is helping everybody to get to this place where we can have a natural conversation without beating each other over the head with I'm right and you're wrong.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah, I love that question. 1. It's unofficially trademarked. It's kind of just like almost like a joke, like pop art. But that has been confusing for a lot of folks. But yeah, language really matters. And I have been doing this work now for eight years. My language has evolved, involved with the times. And we've done research to all types of research around things that we focus on at DWP and language, including reparations. We work on some heavy issues that it can be really triggering for a lot of folks. And so, you know, I'm always thinking about language and how we can create an interest and an understanding and an appetite for folks who want to learn more and be a part of this. So, you know, I don't shy away from talking about colonization, but it's in the context of really teaching history. And I am an advocate for repair, truth and healing for all of us. And I think the big thing that we always remember in our work is when we're talking about history, when we're talking about what's wrong and what's wrong work, and we don't demonize people in that we are really bringing history forward as a way to understand how we got here and what's broken. And we can't repair our economy or repair the things that we care about if we don't understand how we really got here. And so colonization is a significant, really significant historical thing that happen in on this land that has contributed and still contributes to a lot of the problems that we care about. And it is an active force that is at play in, in our systems and in philanthropy, you know, that I talked about. So we don't, I don't shy away from that word. I think that, you know, day number one that I'm walking into a place to maybe teach a workshop, I may not lead with that. Right. It is, it's not necessarily what we put on the flyer to, to get folks to come in because it is a word that requires some unpacking. And we did, we, we, we evolved our language over the past three years. We have a new, we did a new strategic plan, rebranding and all of that. And our mission statement sort of used to be that we were healing the elves of colonization, you know, across the globe. And that, you know, when you have a mission statement that requires explaining or double clicking on things is probably not the best. And our new mission statement that came out from that work is transforming wealth into collective well being. So it's just very clear we're about wealth and we are transforming that wealth, you know, to work for all of us so that we can all thrive. And so that all my relations piece, that indigenous worldview that we're all related, we're all in this thing together, we're not here to blame, point fingers. We just want to speak the truth about what's broken, how we got here and then all work together because we are interconnected, our thriving is mutual, our suffering is mutual. That thread has always been there. And so we wanted that to be reflected in our mission statement because we are about, you know, healing. Colonization is a really, you know, daunting mission and that is what we're going about doing. But we're really healing people and the effects that colonization has had on their lives and their mindsets, particularly around money for, for foundations and donors and folks with wealth that we work with. And then the deployment of those resources are all going towards, you know, healing work, you know, returning of land, economic solidarity, supporting mental health, that type of thing. So, yeah, it's, it's really interesting. There was a moment where, you know, I had a, A little bit of fear with, with sort of, you know, politically things that were happening and, you know, know, the attacks on DEI and the attacks on funders who were, you know, prioritizing race in their work and racial justice. And, you know, everybody, I think for a moment was like, what's going on? What's happening? There was a day that Elon Musk tweeted, if you say the word decolonization, you're a terrorist. And I kind of was like, oh, my God. You know, literally, it was like, in my name of my organization, what's going to happen here? And, you know, I, you know, we just, you know, I pause, felt scared, and then we just kept right on moving because our work has been so rooted and grounded in love. It's never been about tearing down anyone. It's never been about, you know, privileging, you know, anyone. It's, it's, you know, in resourcing, yes, because of, you know, trying to achieve some, some level of equity there. But it is really about all of us needing healing because colonization has impacted everyone, including white folks. And it is a history that is. The dynamics of. It is still pervasive and in all of our systems. And we see it so clearly now with everything that's happening. We are, excuse me, are experiencing the rollback of all these things and kind of going back to systems that are again, separating us, dividing us, putting us against each other, hoarding resources. We're seeing that as live action here in the States. And so, yeah, so language matters. And it is also something we don't shy away from. It's really about the intention and the feeling that people have when they, when they experience the work and they hear us speak. And I spent a lot of time in conservative organizations and banks and places doing this work that happens to be where a lot of wealth is. So I have to go to those places. And our name has never been an issue with folks because it's about what they know, what we're there to do and what we're bringing and what they feel when they're in the programs.
- [37:57]
C
Yeah, I can imagine that maybe there'd be more curiosity than condemnation for most people, most curious people. But when you get a remark like that from somebody with a big following like Elon Musk, what kind of impact did that have on you and the organization? Have you been under threat at all or. I know you weathered it because of what you said. You come from a place of love, but you still had to experience it. Go back to your pillows of whatever else you had in your nest to recover every day. But has there been any immediate threat to you? And then taking that forward, we're having a conversation right after the Supreme Court just made a decision that kicked the legs out from under the Voting Rights act, for example, and where there are discussions in Britain about Palestine action. I mean, we can do this all around the world. It's not specifically just the US and Britain here, but this environment is very charged right now. So how are you contending with maybe the rise in threats as you go about this work?
- [39:05]
A
Yeah, it's real. Being, you know, the CEO of organization that employs people. You know, there are times when, when things were really hot and heavy with, with philanthropy being targeted, you know, and our work being. I'm like, oh wow. Like we are probably considered to be quite radical over here. You know, I, I did have, I was scared that something could happen if we were to be, you know, I don't want to go to court and go through all of that and you know, in a way that others have had to do and you know, the people that work here, like, what if we had to close down, you know, and the funding and people we support, you know, but the fear was really short lived, I feel. You know, I definitely have even spoken out about sort of how philanthropy as a sector so willfully sort of complied and obeyed before there were even mandates in place to do anything. And so fortunately I've seen a lot of folks stand up and not back down or not change and kind of be committed to the mission. And so I am one that is in that camp. I think that it's. There have been no direct attacks at least twice. I know that my name has shown up in articles like in right wing media. I received phone calls from folks like, hey, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, what's going on? And they're being where I was called a threat to democracy, all kinds of things. But I just kept doing the work. Part of me feels like, oh, I must be doing something right if I'm out that way. Right. You know, my book hasn't been banned. I'm Kind of like, hey, what's going on? You know, why isn't my book being banned? So that's, you know, it is. There are so many folks who are probably at more risk than I am. You know, I am, you know, while taking steps to be cautious, you know, and deciding when to say what and, you know, and just having some strategy behind some things because we don't want to invite unwanted attention necessarily. But there's so many folks who are doing work on the front lines that are walking very bravely. And so I'm watching those folks, I'm being inspired by those leaders, and I'm like, hey, if they're not afraid, why should I be afraid? And also, I just know that this work is, is really not about me and DDP even. Like, this is, this is a movement and work that is, that is, that has been happening. That is, that is just. It's a movement. And even if DWP were to close down, this work would continue in some way. So I, I don't put a lot of time or energy into like worrying about things. And I also think that the things maybe have lightened up a little bit in terms of the focus on targeting of philanthropy. I haven't heard a lot lately. I think they have so many things going on and they're targeting so many things, this war, not everything else, that maybe they have kind of moved on. We'll see. But I do feel like for a moment in the philanthropist sector, there feels like folks are kind of breathing. Okay, maybe we're okay to just kind of keep doing our work every year, but never a dull moment. And I never imagined in a million years that philanthropy would be under attack by the government.
- [43:00]
C
Yeah, it is a pretty curious time. And as you say, it hasn't stalled anything you're doing. And I know you've got. Is it a trillion dollar moonshot? Explain what this is.
- [43:13]
A
Yeah, so we, you know, at about year five, we did an evaluation of our work at Decolonizing Wealth Project. You know, we do grant making in community, we do storytelling work, and we do a lot of work to support donors, foundations, corporations, and thinking about reimagining giving from a place of repair through our reparative philanthropy framework. And I know that we have had impact. We're giving away a lot of money. Had lots of anecdotal stories and donors and foundations that I work with directly. But I really wanted to understand our impact. So we hired an evaluator and did a five year report. And I was really like, wow, okay, so that's really good information. And so building from there, we then asked a question. You know, what is our superpower? What should we be doing next? What do we bring forward into the next few years? Because I never had a strategic plan. I literally spirit was my strategic plan. I just sort of trusted intuition. But at this point, it's like, okay, we have some strengths here that we should really be leveraging and bringing and bringing some focus to the work. And so with that plan, I wanted to announce a bold sort of North Star moonshot. And we have unlocked $1 billion in reparative capital in a short amount of time as an organization. So I was like, a trillion is possible. A trillion is possible. And so when we announced that, some folks were like, wow. But it really is a drop in the bucket compared to what's really needed to repair. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what folks are giving and investing to dismantle our democracy. In the last election, a handful of donors gave a billion dollars to keep people from not voting. And so I wanted the moonshot to feel really ambitious because we need to shift our mindset around these small little dollars we're giving, thinking that we're going to see big change. We've got to give more money, we've got to unlock more money, and we've got to give differently. And so I'm putting that moonshot out. You know, the timing was really, you know, fortunate. I think when we announced it, it was sort of when a lot of the things begin happening in philanthropy and some of the attacks and people are getting quiet and sort of like, not sure what to do. And by putting out sort of this. The signal, like, $1 trillion, this campaign, we found that a lot of folks, it brought sort of something inspirational, you know, for folks to get behind and to be a part of this in a time where philanthropy was sort of waffling. So that's what it's about. It's really bringing our. Our skills, our superpower, our focus to unlocking resources on. To repair. And we know that, you know, thinking about historically what needs to be repaired and currently what. What needs to be repaired is being broken is just significant. And so that's. That's our charge for the next 10 years.
- [46:36]
C
And, you know, when you do an analysis like that and then you think about what's the plan for the future, and you compare it to the. The expenses that are being outlaid for competitive ideas, let's put it that way, all the ways to restrict people's ability to vote and Other things. That's one way to think about what the cost might be. But as a trillion dollars, as enormous as that sounds, is that enough? If you were going to repair what needs to be repaired, what would that cost? Not just in terms of dollars, but what is the real cost of trying to repair all of us?
- [47:13]
A
Oh, my gosh. You know, it's, it's. There's probably not even a number that is adequate. You know, I, I think that it's. Yeah, it's. Isn't there. There is no number. And not just the financial resources that are needing, but, but the, the spiritual and emotional mental repair, you know, the cultural repair that's needed. So this is the work of our lifetime and for generations to come. And so hopefully the moonshot is just helping folks understand how much it's going to take and be willing to do more. So 5% giving from foundations is not going to cut it. We know that progressive donors tend to give less than conservative donors. So a lot of the work that I'm doing and preaching around what we need to change, I'm talking to progressive donors. We can learn a lot from how money moves on the right. Then we've got to organize and really advocate, as a lot of our partners are doing in the reparations movement and the land back movement and truth and reconciliation movement to actually pressure governments to do repair work and to pay up to support repair in communities. And so, you know, we've invested $12 million in the reparations movement in the last couple of years. We see commissions in like, 20 to 30 cities across the country. In spite of, you know, nationally things being politically difficult. Locally, a lot of things have moved. The task force in California last year got $10 million in an allocation toward reparative work that that task force asked for. So it is money and philanthropy, but it's also, you know, liable institutions like state, local, national governments that also need to be a part of repair and paying for, for, to right the wrongs and to return land for, for things that they've been a part of as well. So a trillion is not enough. And I feel like we're going to get to a trillion dollars and like, the next year, probably we should have maybe aimed even higher.
- [49:31]
C
You've talked about being a healer, that that's, I guess, the calling that you found in that dollars instead of being, you know, the, the root of all evil. And I love the way you, you help people to revisit that scripture in the book. It's not the root of all evil. It Is again, what. Yeah, it's the love of money, right. That's the root of all evil. So by thinking about using capital to repair, to heal, I'm wondering where you imagine that taking you personally has it satisfied that need to find repair in your community, in your family and yourself. Because ultimately the journey we take takes a lot out of us. So where are you as a healer today?
- [50:26]
A
I, I'm healing and I, I'm so grateful for this journey that Decolonizing wealth project has afforded me to be a part of unlocking money, because I do believe money can, can be medicine. And I've seen what it's done in community when we've unlocked these resources. But I've also seen what it's done in institutions and in the lives of donors and families that I've worked with, with. You know, philanthropy is very spiritual if we move beyond the transactional of me giving here. But if there is a truth and repair lens brought to that when, you know, a family that may be burdened by a history around how wealth was accumulated, there, there's some, there's some freedom that comes with returning that wealth, right. And naming that, that channel truth and man, those are some of the happiest people I know who have done that work. And it is hard work. It is, is to, to sit in the grief of some of that, but on the other side, it is really, really beautiful. So being a part of facilitating that and seeing, you know, land returned to tribes, last year we facilitated 17,000 acres in California. That is personally just, you know, very healing for me. So I, I feel inspired every single day when people, by the people who step up to do this work, both in philanthropy and donors who don't have to, you know, sometimes, you know, I do this money stories, conversations with, with wealthy folks. I'm always like, why? You know, I don't, if it were me, I might just be at the beach chilling. But you are, you're doing this work, you want to do this hard work and, you know, of confronting your family and having these hard conversations and working to, you know, repair. But it's because, you know, we all know and feel the brokenness and people want that to be, you know, we, we want to be better. And so that's why I think of myself as a healer and I invite everyone to take on that identity, to do your own work of healing and around, you know, money, but also just, just more broadly, we all need to be doubling down on, on the self care and, and just, you know, protecting our minds and the spirits in this time and also just be a part of helping others heal. And one way to do that is, is by giving. There's a lot of ways. We have a community called Liberated Capital that anyone's welcome to join, you know, as a community of 700 folks who give whatever they can collectively. And we've moved $30 million through that fund. So it's, it feels really good to be a part of something that is, you know, making a difference. So that's. Yeah. So to healing is what I say.
- [53:24]
B
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about Edgar Villanueva, the Decolonizing Wealth Project and Liberated Capital@decolonizingwealth.com Our thanks to our sponsor, Evertrue, a global leader in donor engagement and fundraising intelligence, helping nonprofits find, engage, and inspire their supporters. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor, courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise, all part of the Philanthropy Mastermind series. Until next time. I'm Jay Frost.
- [54:04]
C
Thanks for joining me.