← The PM Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
It's just incredibly peaceful. I mean, it's fun and exhilarating, but peaceful and relaxing at the same time. Sometimes my trainer will be like, you look like. Your face looks like you are on a roller coaster right now. I was like, because I sound excited and it's thrilling and, like, jumping over this thing is so fun. I feel like I'm soaring and we're like two feet off the ground, but.
- [00:17]
B
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators, and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy, and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. Lindsey Nadeau is vice president of Philanthropy Insight at UNICEF usa, where she leads data driven strategy and enterprise systems that deepen donor engagement and accelerate revenue growth. A nationally recognized voice in prospect development, she also serves as President Elect of APRA International. In this episode, we follow her journey from her early days in development operations to steering insight driven strategy for one of the world's leading humanitarian organizations, all the while exploring how her equestrian mindset informs her leadership and life with balance, patience, focus, and the discipline to keep improving stride after stride.
- [01:11]
C
And I'll just begin by asking you, really, where you're from, because we are virtually neighbors, but where are you from?
- [01:20]
A
Yeah, surprisingly, I'm from the Bay Area in California. East Bay.
- [01:26]
C
So where in the East Bay?
- [01:28]
A
Hayward, just below.
- [01:30]
C
Sure, sure, sure. What was it like growing up there?
- [01:35]
A
Oh, my goodness. I didn't need air conditioning. It was so temperate. It was stunningly beautiful, which I had forgotten about, honestly, until I went back as, like, a more mature adult and, like, kind of saw it again with fresh eyes. I was like, this is just one of a kind, unique geography and, like, the beauty of the environment out there, it's just. It's so amazing. I was, like, driving down the, like, Route 1 that, you know, goes across, go by, goes by the coast, and just breathtaking. Like, oh, I need to stop driving so I can pull over and just take this in as an adult versus, like, a kid who took it for granted, you know? Also, like, I loved it. I grew up in a neighborhood where there was a multitude of people from different races, ethnicity, religion. And so one of the things that, like, I really got to bond with some of my friends about was different kinds of food, right? Like, yes, I still love the hamburger and the French fries. American kid, for sure, through and through, but, like, grew up eating tamales out of my neighborhood. Person who would just, like, go around door to door selling them. And it was in the back of their car. And that was like totally normal. My mom would send me out with like a 20 bill. I want this many chicken, I want this many cheese, pork, etc, you know, and just like that kind of diversity and like appreciation for different cuisines, I really took for granted. Honestly, another thing I took for granted growing up in California, just. Yeah, the beauty of not just the scenery, but then also, you know, the multitude of different cultures that came in to the Bay Area. Just unparalleled in my opinion. I mean, maybe New York thinks they can rival us on the food and cultures, but definitely not on the ud.
- [03:28]
C
And you were there your whole.
- [03:31]
B
Youth.
- [03:32]
C
Until you went off to school? Is that how you came to the D.C. area?
- [03:36]
A
Yeah, I spent my entire life in the same house, same neighborhood in California until college. I came to D.C. because originally I thought I wanted to go into like government service perhaps. I had this like childhood dream. I want to be a senator. I have no idea why. I, I could not explain to this day why that was what was in my head. But when I decided to, you know, when I was looking at colleges and I decided, where do I want to go? I decided I want to be somewhere at the center of like key decision making. And I wanted to take a leap of faith and go somewhere where I didn't have family. I just wanted to like, strike out and like, what can I build? And then I stayed. I went to American University in Washington, D.C. and after graduating, I had already met my now husband and we just kind of stayed. He wanted to work in law. I decided at some point I wanted to work in nonprofits. And that's like the perfect intersection for dc. We're kind of like this prototypical DC couple between nonprofit and law. Yeah. Oh, sorry.
- [04:44]
C
No, no, please go ahead.
- [04:46]
A
And now I've actually spent more time here in the D.C. area than I ever did in California. So I joke that this is like my adopted home. Even though I'm a California girl through and through. You know.
- [04:56]
C
It is a place where people will go to study and then go to Capitol Hill. And as you said, you know, you have this childhood dream of being a senator, but what was the transition into this nonprofit life? Because they don't teach that even at American. There's not a non profit life track.
- [05:14]
A
No, there's definitely not. I mean, there is a lot of, I would say public service in the alumni of American University. And it's a huge focus, whether that's international service or government service or non profit. But it's for me, at first I thought I wanted to be a politician. And then I realized, like, I don't know, that I want to be in the public spotlight like that. And, like, it's so competitive and, like, politics can have a lot of downsides to your personal life. And then I was like, okay, I'll be a lawyer. And then I realized that that required three additional years of law school. And I was like, nope. All right, process of elimination here. So I had been majoring in economics, and I was really taken by that. I loved looking at, like, comparative macroeconomic systems, and I liked, you know, the math, the healthy math, and staff or stats bent to it. And it was both a little bit of quantitative, qualitative, and I liked that blend. And so I had actually decided and applied and was accepted and was underway in a five year MABA program at American. And I just hit this wall in grad school. So I'm a grad school washout. Honestly. It was a semester where I was doing, like, econometrics 2 calc 4 and macro econ. That had, like, a lot of calc in it. And I just was like, all of these models have so many assumptions in them that it's really hard for me to believe that any of them work, which is so funny given how much data science is in fundraising these days. And I just kind of came to this point where I was like, I'm losing my passion for it. I don't want to be an economist sitting in an office making decisions for people all around the country that feel devoid from the individuals that they're going to impact. And at that time, in parallel, I had started working as a development assistant at a nonprofit, a very small nonprofit grassroots organization in Washington, D.C. called Public Citizen. And I had interned for them and done a macroeconomic research project for them. And so when they had an opening for fundraising, I was like, okay, I was a phone a thon kid. Like, I had been calling people asking them for money since I was a freshman. I did it for eight. Wow. Investors. I was like, this is a blend of the organization. I understand, and I like their mission and their programs and a blend of fundraising. And there's some data in fundraising. And I feel like this is a really good intersection of some of the things that I'm interested in. And so I had never really liked, consciously chose, like, I'm gonna go do nonprofits. But I feel like with those things, I was considering being a politician, a lawyer, economics, nonprofits, all those things. I had always kind of approached it from, like, I want to do good I want to be a change maker. That was the thing that I always saw as a pathway through one of those options. And once I started working for a nonprofit, I feel like I found my people who were cause oriented and rallied around a mission and weren't complacent and weren't in it for profit. And that just really resonated with me. So I kind of like, you know, as most prospect development professionals do, just fell into it unknowingly. Even though, like, I can see all these little decisions I had made over time, like, put me right into this lane where my first job in fundraising, it was like a multitude of different things I was doing. I was helping with planned giving, I was working on direct mail. I'd answer call members and donors. I would plan an event, I would do gift processing. And then I discovered a product where you could do capacity rating and prospect research. And I didn't know what any of those things were. I was just like, oh, another event buyer or another new donor, I should look them up. And I didn't even know that prospect development or prospect research was a field with an association and a whole network and a body of knowledge. And like, I just kind of fell into it. But that was the one thing that I really, really loved out of all those things that were on my plate. And so I was able to kind of chart a course through that for the rest of my career. And that's how I wound up here.
- [09:31]
C
The idea that you were studying macroeconomics, which is pretty expansive, but doesn't necessarily see the individual in the same way that microeconomics or certainly prospect development does. I wonder if that was part of what made you decide, I've had enough of this thing because you were, the way you were talking about it and then the fact that you were willing to make phone calls. There aren't a lot of people who are comfortable with direct outreach to people, person to person, but also interested in, if you add up all those people together, what's the story that that tells? So did you really enjoy that, that part of also just reaching out, calling people up on the phone on behalf of the school and then later at public citizen, having that kind of direct interaction?
- [10:16]
A
Yeah, I did. Because, you know, everything was done by phone back then. And like, our first and highest objective as a phone a thon person was to do address and contact information, update employment information. That stuff is super, like, critical, as we know, to an organization's ability to remain engaged with their constituents. And so that part was like an easy way to Enter into a conversation. And it was before people were all on cell phones, so they didn't always know who was calling. Not everyone had caller id. They were more likely to answer their phone. And once you got them on the phone. Right. You can find that opportunity to build rapport. You're from the same school within the university. Oh, you have that in common or. Oh, I can see you were in this dorm. I'm in that dorm. Right. With that built in alumni connection, there's so much fellowship generally that it was actually very easy. And, you know, you just had to, like, hear no enough to get comfortable with hearing no and being like, yep, I'm waiting for that. Yes. Right. You just had to, like, build your resilience to. And like, there were people who would come and work at the phone a thon for a month and just kind of be like, nope, this is not for me, but my husband and I actually did it. I think he. I don't think he did it the first year, but he did it for three years with me. So it was also just a way for us to, like, be competitive a little bit with one another. And I used to be the top caller, and then he joined and he became the top caller. But then we, you know, we kind of leapfrogged a little bit in there. But it's like a fun thing, little banter thing that we still have to this day.
- [11:48]
C
There's something in there about competition leading to love and marriage that we could explore. But it just sounds funny that comes through fundraising, of all things. But then Public Citizen, you mentioned, and for those who don't know what Public Citizen is about, first of all, what is it? Or what was it? But also, why did it appeal to you? I know it was an opportunity, sure. And you were starting out, but you had choices and you chose that.
- [12:11]
A
Yeah. So Public Citizen is a consumer rights organization, a consumer protection organization. It has several different program spheres. But, you know, it goes from, let's say drug safety. Right. That's one of the most in demand. Or at least when I was there, I'm speaking maybe 20 years ago. But still, one of the biggest interests from members was, should I take this medication? Right. And while the people answering those questions generally are not doctors with qualified opinions, we had resources that we could share with them. Because, you know, with the state of health care, it can be really hard when individuals have multiple prescriptions. Right. They were looking to Public Citizen to help keep them safe and know how to ask informed questions of their doctors when they went in for Appointments. So like, that was one area. But it was also the organization was credited with like a former president of the organization who was a very strong female leader and was a mentor to me early in my career, being one of the political forces that was able to make sure that airbags were in cars, Things like that, like basic safety protections that most people take for granted was where this organization really was stepping up and mobilizing support. They're also one of those transparency of just understanding money and politics or like, they also had a global trade watch division which would like, help break down and do lobbying efforts around trade policies that are impacting consumers. So I liked it because it was very like human centered and like, I think it was a lot of invisible work that most people have never heard of Public Citizen, but they have outsized accomplishments for the size of their budget or the number of donors that they have. So they're incredibly effective and influential in my opinion. You know, even now working for like a very large nonprofits, I think they had upsized impact. So that was kind of what drew me to it. But also, like, I don't like to be bored. I always love a good stretch assignment and I still to this day have always sought them out. And being in such a flexible position where it's a very small fundraising team, it was a team player atmosphere where they're like, sure, you could help with that. Sure you could learn about that. So I was never bored, even though it was a smaller organization.
- [14:33]
C
And that did introduce you, as you said, to some of those, I guess, tools and techniques of prospect development, prospect research early on. And then you went back to your school, is that right? Or at that point?
- [14:44]
A
Yes. Yeah. So once I had no. I had three different positions or so in the four years that I was at Public Citizen. And the one that I really loved had to do with prospect research. And I always just kept an eye on my alma mater's job postings and. And I saw one come out for something called Prospect Research and Management. And I was like, what is that? And when I started reading the job description, Bullets for Responsibilities, I was like, hey, wait, that's what I'm doing. I didn't know that there was like this name for it. So I start googling Prospect research and prospect Management. And I was like, well, I've never done prospect management. Like y'. All. The database I was using my first job was a mainframe database. Like, we barely had portfolio flags, let alone like any kind of prospect management system. Right. We had portfolios and that was it. Um, so to like, be able to go to a higher education fundraising shop and really, like, cut my teeth on like, oh, this is what professionalized, well resourced, process driven fundraising looks like. It was a huge opportunity. And I remember my supervisor there, Devin Vi Gesser, who's been in the D.C. aPRA scene, a former president of APRA Metro D.C. was a really influential mentor for me and she showed me, like, what professional development could look like and how it could advance your growth, how it could advance your career, and frankly, how it even helps give back to the organization you're working for. Right. So I learned so much at American University and it was, it was really special to get to work back at the organization where, like, I met my husband. I spent all that time on campus. It was just so nostalgic to be. It had only been a couple years since I had graduated, but still, it just, it was full of memories and like, I didn't have to relearn everything about the organization. I was coming in with a knowledge set that gave me a leg up, which was great.
- [16:34]
C
This also means that you weren't having that direct donor contact, but you were, you know, I guess you were feeding that other part of your, your brain and your professional interest. But how was that then to be just a little bit removed from that donor connection? Because I know that's something that keeps coming back in different ways in your, in your career.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah, yeah. You know, I didn't like, because when I was at Public Citizen, I had a small little portfolio, like an annual fund portfolio assigned to me and I was interacting with donors at events that I was organiz and things like that, so. Or on the phones talking to members who had questions. So it was different, but it was almost freeing in a way because I had a certain amount of reactive prospect research I needed to do, but I had fun time to be able to learn things about prospect management and build a prospect management system in partnership with Devin and others. But that was tapping into a whole new set of solutioning and creativity within, like, established structures in the prospect management field. So, you know, I still had a touch point here or there. I'd volunteer at like, the scholarship luncheon, I would volunteer at the stewardship gala, et cetera. But I got to know the donors differently through prospect research and the stories that we told that way. And with the increased resources that higher ed fundraising usually has to be able to do prospect research, you could tell that story more completely than I had. One tool when I was at Public Citizen was barely scratching the surface. You know, so yeah, I mean I, I don't miss it honestly, like I have in my current capacity at UNICEF usa, I have gone to board meetings, I have presented to some of our top donors and supporters on different aspects of our work. I have traveled with donors actually to see our program in action in Mongolia. I'm not afraid of it. I will embrace it when those opportunities are there. But I've just learned that I'm more of an internal tinkerer and solution builder. And as long as I can keep in tune with the mission and I see the connection, the impact, and I help my team see the impact they have on the mission, I'm okay doing it from a distance.
- [18:48]
C
How important is that? That the whole team is connected in that way to the mission, to the work, in a tangible way.
- [18:54]
A
So important in my current role, I started out just as the head of prospect development, but now I have all of the advancement services teams reporting into me. And one of those came about by moving our gift processing team from finance to the philanthropy division and helping them understand like your job is not just accounting and data entry. You are the first step in stewardship. What you do, the timeliness, the accuracy of it, that impacts the donor experience. And here's why that matters. On retention, right? Peer to peer and network fundraising like volunteering, like all of those things are connected to how quickly can we get that gift in the system accurately and receive it and thank them and just helping people understand that. And I think UNICEF USA does an amazing job of really centering our mission in things like our staff retreats, our monthly all staffs. You cannot escape the mission in many cause organizations. But I would wager that UNICEF USA does it really, really well. Because I've worked in higher ed a lot. And don't get wrong, the work study student you're working with might be a scholarship recipient. You may have played a hand in helping finding that donor or stewarding that donor or whatever your role is, but sometimes it feels even more removed because higher education is a. It's an incredibly important opportunity for individuals, but it's a later stage intervention in the life cycle versus UNICEF is like at the beginning of someone's life and giving them that equity line, that base of equity at the beginning to me helps me stay even more connected because the work is so urgent compared to higher ed. So that's partly for me, like how I try to make sure that folks are always thinking about it, even if you're in a less removed context from the mission or not.
- [20:49]
C
And before we get Too far away from your own personal origin story. I mean, you were then back there at American where so many of these things started for you. It sounds like maybe that was an entry point also into the professional association. Is that right? Were you joining APRA at that point?
- [21:09]
A
Yes. So Devin, my supervisor, she sat me down and she was like, I think you're going to be the next president of APPA Metro dc. It's like, what? What? So, you know, I joined the board in a program director capacity because again, I love planning events. And I went to my first international conference, Upper International, and I was frankly overwhelmed at the international level. I liked our chapter events. It was a smaller scale. I got to know people, I got a little more comfortable. I was building strong relationships with my fellow ABERDC board members. But when I went to the international, I was like, my goodness, there's so many people, just so many people. I don't know anyone and I'm just on information overload. But when I left my first international conference, I wrote my first five year plan because I was so inspired. I was like a personal plan, personal and professional. It was both. Yeah. And so I decided on some initiatives I wanted to bring back to my nonprofit, and mostly in the prospect management side and how we could enhance what we were tracking. And then I also started thinking like, okay, if I want to become the president of Metro dc, how do I work my way into that? If I want to chair the APP International Conference 1 day, what are some steps that I. It was almost like volunteer pathway, journeying for myself to get me to where I wanted to be, to have the impact. And so that definitely all started when I was at American, but it carried through even today to being president elect of APPA International. I will say I did my five year plan in about four years and I wrote a 10 year plan. And that one didn't quite go as fast as my five year plan, but we're getting there.
- [23:09]
C
So you were there, you were getting involved in the association as well as doing the work, but you, you moved on. So was part of your plan to. To leave? Yeah, you're on my mater. And then take on a new position, new responsibility. What were you thinking was important? What was the next step in that five year plan?
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, I had told myself that in five years I wanted to be like the director, the head of a research and relationship management team, or prospect development, whatever you want to call that. And I had originally planned for it to be in higher ed. I was just sensing that at American there wasn't as much upward mobility as I was looking for, as I wanted to take more on and wanted to grow. And it wasn't that Devin didn't support me. I don't know, it was more just about like was the pathway there and the pay scale and all that and promotions and all that. So as I was thinking about upward mobility there, I also looked out at other opportunities and there was a bit of a step up. It would be full time management of a team. It was a broader portfolio. So it's basically a mini advancement services, but the organization's much smaller than a lot of the shops that I've worked at. And so it was like kind of a great slightly lateral but slight expansion of scope step up. So it just had a lot of the attributes that I wanted. And this was at the center of American progress. So I think tank policy think tank in D.C. and this was a really interesting life experience for me. I took the job thinking I could do this job in my sleep. And about three months in I knew I'd made a horrible mistake and it wasn't the right fit for me.
- [24:52]
C
Why?
- [24:56]
A
The process and resourcing that I had come to depend on in my higher education experience was just not there. And I mean the organization is full of amazing, brilliant individuals, but they were very rigid in the way that they had always done fundraising. And it was very in network for the leader of the organization and not as much appetite to work, new leads to do, prospecting to invest in professional development was a big sticking point for me. I knew that going in in fairness to them, but even like being able to secure the resources that we needed to do the work at the level that I knew it could be done was really challenging. And I think there was also some like significant personality conflicts on the team. And I was just like, none of this is working. Like one of these things I might have been able to overcome. But I just at that point I still felt like I had so much more to learn from like really well process driven resourced higher education fundraising. So at about three months in, I knew this is not my like long term home, but I didn't want to have like some blemish on my resume. It's funny how some of us think about that now. Looking back, I'm like, oh my God, I could have just left after three months, it would have been fine. So I was like, okay, you got to stick it out for at least a year. And then partway through that tenure where I was giving it my all, my new friend from the Upper Metro D.C. board and Dean called me and said, I have a job for you. Would you apply to a job at Gwen? You know, she hadn't, like, written the job description for me, but she had. It was going live. And she was like, I want to drum up a couple leads, you know, And I. It was so funny because she called me and I was sitting in an office with, I think, three other people. We shared a corner office. And the. You could hear what she was saying on the phone to me, and everyone was like, no. I was like, oh, God, this is so awkward. But I will remain incredibly indebted to Ann for taking a chance on me and seeking me out for that opportunity. Because I think my time at gw, when I made that decision to join them, I had that opportunity. Not only did I get to work with Anne, but I got to work with John Thorson, who's another mentor of mine. And they just taught me so much and allowed me to dabble in different kinds of projects and kind of reinvent myself there. And I feel like I got the opportunity to kind of define who I am as a leader the most while I was at gw, and I brought that forward into my core role, my very evolving role@unicef USA. But that's kind of how I. I sought out a new opportunity. And I course corrected because someone threw me a lifeline, and I had built that connection and that relationship with folks to know that they could turn to me if they had an opportunity. Right. So I can't say enough about, like, the value of getting involved in your professional association, because my last two jobs, GW and UNICEF usa, I got because of the APPRA network. I was recruited to UNICEF USA by my current boss because she saw me present at the APPRA International Conference on International Due Diligence. She just literally walked up to me later that day and she's like, I have a job for you. Like, that's the power of abra.
- [28:24]
C
So for that next step in your journey to unicef, I know you said you were recruited because of presentation, but there was probably more to that. You had to make a decision yourself if you wanted to take advantage of a position which was going to be quite a bit different and was outside of higher ed, but also the opportunities for impact were and are pretty extraordinary, but also the expansive nature of the role. So how did you come in initially? What was it? What was your understanding of what you would do and how did it change?
- [28:59]
A
Yeah, I was hired as the Senior Director of Prospect Development and it had a team of Maybe four people. There were two individual. There were two positions on the prospect research team. One was vacant. There was one person on the donor communications team where I was like, oh, that's different. That's not prospect development, but okay. And then, oh, there were actually two individuals on development operations. So it was like this hodgepodge of you have prospect research, not even prospect development, just prospect research development operations and donor communications. And I was like, this is a really interesting team structure. I just don't understand how this was the resourcing model. So we went to work, we built out, and I recruited a leader for the prospect research team. I gave a little bit more structure to development operations team. We also brought in someone to do portfolio optimization work because that critical part of like relationship management, prospect management, fundraiser, KPIs, forecasting, all of that, like, there was a gap. No one was doing that work. And I kept donor communications for a while. But there actually came an interesting point in my tenure there where we were kind of re evaluating the scope of my role and there was a restructure in the organization. New leadership had come in. We were kind of putting all of the elements of philanthropy together in one division. And there were two leaders where we kind of had like different scopes. And that was when gift processing was given to me to take on. And then the donor communications piece had been moved to another individual who had more of like a donor experience kind of composition with different teams. And so at that point I really turned my attention to not just building out and helping integrate our gift processing work into our fundraising culture and the donor experience, but also really deepening that and the resourcing, but also the expertise of our prospect development team. I shifted it away from just being prospect research, but further investing into the relationship management portfolio optimization side and also building out like an actual defined data analytics team, which we call data strategy, but really helping lift up insight like data driven decision making. Not just here's what your research requests when you ask for it fundraiser. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you again when you send another request question. But building that like liaison model and that insight driven partnership where we were trusted advisors. So that was kind of the metamorphosis from my first state to my second state there. And along the way, actually throughout that journey, that transition. And I think this was within like my first 12 months or so on the job. I started right before the pandemic. It was November 2019. So within the first few months, the whole organization went remote. As everyone does, the whole world did and then UNICEF was tapped by a few international partners to vaccinate the entire world, the adult world, against Covid. Because we were the only organization that had the logistics supply chain, the cold chain, to be able to take vaccines that had been procured by a different organization and turn them into vaccinations by putting them in people's arms. We were that partner that got it from a warehouse into people's arms. And doing that would take billions of dollars. And was something that we had to kind of build a case for support around because it wasn't child focused initially on its face, right, you're vaccinating adults. But we had to figure out how to tell the story that if a child can't go to school because their teacher can't, or if the child can't get their routine medical exams, that's bad for long term health because their doctor's not able to be there. And so we have to open the world back up and allow the adults that children depend on to be able to resume normal activity so that children can go back to school. Right. We very much tapped into like language around like a lost generation. Children are gonna be set back for decades if this is so protracted. And so in that moment where we realized we are going to be the organization that does this, it was daunting. But my CFO and the chief of staff who had hired me, that was the person who sat me out, kind of looked around. The organization was like, Lindsay. Lindsay has campaign experience from higher ed. She knows how campaigns are running. We're going to need a campaign in order to like bring this mobilization effort to life and get the funding that we need for UNICEF to be able to do this work. And I encounter a lot of like resistance throughout the organization, to be honest, A lot of doubt. Like, we aren't a campaign shop, which is true, we're not. But as we were working on that case for support and as we were understanding what do we even think the potential is, Testing it, message testing it. With a few of our national board members, keep institutional funders, et cetera. We landed our first lead gift. And it was shocking. People were like, wait, what? It was like a 20 million dollar gift, $25 million gift, something like that. And it made everyone like sit upright and be like, oh my God, can we do this? And then a couple more came in. And then in the course of about 18 months, I had led a campaign that raised $270 million rapidly. And some of these donors were first time donors making eight figure gifts to us. Because, you know, with campaigns, sometimes there's a marketing event. You're trying to build their urgency, manufacture the urgency at times. You didn't need to do that with this campaign. It was all there because everyone wanted to go back to normal and, like, wanted people to be safe in doing that. And so it was the easiest pitch, I swear, that I've ever seen in fundraising. And our don't, like our number of donors, like major donors, new principal gift owners, just went through the roof, honestly. So that was kind of one of those steps that happened between being hired as senior director of prospect development, transitioning into gift processing, coming into the fold, Managing that campaign spanned both of those. It was, you know, I thought I had like, okay, that was three different chapters that all happened at once, basically in a short amount of time. And then Ukraine hit.
- [35:52]
C
Well, wait, before you get there, you also had a major life event, because at the time that Covid hit, you weren't just thinking about how to save through vaccinations, how to make it possible for the world to get vaccinated so it would benefit children who needed all these things that you just mentioned. They needed their parents and their grandparents. They needed to go to school. They needed all these things. You had a child of your own and you were also working from home because we were all locked down. So what was that experience like to be a new mother with a child of the same age as all those children that you were working to protect around the world?
- [36:32]
A
You know, I had never paid much attention to UNICEF and the mission before having a kid. And even when, because I had my kid while I was at gw. So my GW work, famous supported me through that. And that was an amazing experience. But when I made the decision to leave GW and join unicef, it was in one part because GW was scaling back on Telework. And I had a little kid and I, you know, we live in the burbs of D.C. that commute was hard. It was really hard. I was dropping my kid off at daycare at 6:30 in the morning, picking her up at maybe 6pm at night. That was untenable. And so that was one of the reasons that I left. But because the other reason was when my current boss approached me at the conference, she was like, I have a job for you. Unicef. And I was like, kids, right? That was how I recognized the brand name. I didn't know a lot about their mission, but when I went back to my hotel room and I googled UNICEF and I started reading about their program scope. I was like, oh my goodness, this is a mission that I am literally like living right now, seeing how vulnerable children are when they are born. They can't do anything for themselves. Right? Like, and then to think about some of the circumstances in which children are subjected to. There's no other organization that I would rather be a part of because of as a parent. And there are a lot of non parents as well that connect to the mission. Not saying you have to be a parent, but for me that was my connection into our mission. And so I had no hesitation about knowing that I will get out of bed every day and want to bleed cyan blue for UNICEF usa because I'm living that journey with my own child. And of course we have a lot more privilege here than many children parents have around the world. But going through the pandemic, even at a child focused organization where some of my friends are like, I'm so mortified. My child came on camera and there's that clip during the pandemic of someone doing like a broadcast and the child busting in and either the nanny or whomever came in to help retrieve the child. That went viral. And like there was no pretenses at UNICEF usa it was okay to have your family on camera during meetings. It was almost endearing and it reminded us of our mission. That doesn't mean that it was easy. My husband and I had to do shifts because our kid was roughly, I'd say like 20 months. So very active, very mobile, three story home, constantly trying to hurt herself not knowing it. So my husband would work early and I would watch her. I mean he started work at like 6am Then we'd transition. I would take afternoon meetings and it was a lot of like, what YouTube Music channel can I pull up today? And there was like a mom support group at UNICEF or parent group really where we could like surface content from each other's like, you know, parent circles so that we had fresh content for our kids that was educational, but it was exhausting. And then among all of that, while school was closed and I was trying to work and keep my child safe because we weren't doing a lot of teaching at that point. She was so young then. It was the campaign on top of that, right? Like it, it was just this convergence of so many things all at once. But it was so rewarding. Like I still look back at that time period as being one of the things that I will be proudest of, of helping pull that off so that UNICEF could do the work that they, you know, only they could do while also still being a present parent and being so grateful that my organization was not a rigid culture that was flexible and accommodating and like put the family focus in balance with the work context.
- [40:35]
C
So just to go back to the campaign now for a second, you have been exposed to campaigns, but you hadn't led a campaign before. And you talked about working on the case statement. I don't know if you wrote that or you worked with people who wrote it, but that case statement is usually designed for sure for anybody who might read it initially on a feasibility study. But you probably didn't go to the feasibility study. You went directly to potential donors. But the other thing about UNICEF is historically it's benefited from a lot of small donations like trick or treat for UNICEF in my childhood, and then also these big international governments and things like that who have supported the work. But here it sounds like you were going and talking to almost a new class of potential large, ultra high net worth donors. So how did you make personally, how did you make that leap from telling the story, getting it into the right hands, and then having frankly the confidence to do that on a large scale for the first time for an organization that had a pretty proud history and needed the money right now?
- [41:43]
A
Yeah, you know, we do have a pretty large donor base for sure. Our direct response program is pretty large. I'd say on average years are about 500,000 to almost a million at the peak of our fundraising years in terms of terms of donors, and the bulk of that comes from direct response. But when I joined the organization, there was about a $30 million major giving program. What I would say is it was somewhat modeled as like a mid level program, in my opinion. There was not a lot of long term strategy that there were in like some fundraisers got it more than others. But there was also a culture of like, well, I'll just ask them for $10,000 every single year. I was like, okay, that's, that's, that's not quite major gift work. That's not transformative philanthropy. Right. And to see where our organization has like come from and where we are now having, as some may have seen, we closed a $500 million gift this year. One of the best principal gift authors I have ever worked with, she is brilliant, she is transformative. She was on the major giving team originally there. And so there were like kernels and there was a lot of good work being done in pocket. But the campaign was the thing, I think, that gave individuals on the major Giving team the confidence to be able to pitch it because it was an undeniable charge. It resonated with everyone. Not only like just generally our brand credibility and like who hates children, even if you don't have children, who hates children. They're the future, right? Care about the future generally. Then to add this layer of urgency and just unending need, like it was so massive what we were doing in 190 countries around the world. There was just so much opportunity for them to be able to tell that story. And why we were literally the only organ there. There were no competitors, no one else was vaccinating at the scale that we were. Because no one else can do it that way. That's not something you can build overnight and decide, oh, I'm going to start a new program. No, no, it's existing supply chain logistics that UNICEF has. So it was definitely a departure from what I had done because like you said in my past experiences with campaign, we were the numbers people, we were the lead gen, we were the, are we optimizing portfolios? We do the screening, validation. Like we do some reporting. But it was watching the campaign come together through alumni relations, through donor communications, through, you know, gift acceptance policies and campaign counting policies and the case for support and the campaign leadership. And just like seeing all of that come together and had a front row seat for some of that because we did close a campaign at GWI is there. I didn't see the inception, but I saw the outcomes and the in flight work that was happening. And so I just took that experience and said, okay, if I was going to do an internal mini feasibility light like half the calories, all the fun, I'm basically being told we're gonna do this, we have to do this. What landscape factors do we want to keep in mind while we do it was my version of feasibility, right? And then it was a little bit of like, what kind of resources will it take? You're asking us to raise hundreds of millions of dollars. You gotta give me a couple positions here to get that work done, right? So some of those positions still exist. And that was really like the origin of investment in data driven, process driven fundraising. And it's a trend that has continued. It paid dividends with that campaign, not just for our major giving team and like elevating their operation and offshooting a principal giving program, the hub that we call now Philanthropy Insight really emerged from all of those investments and the organization seeing the dividends of data driven for.
- [45:35]
C
And that probably brings us back to Ukraine, which You were starting to talk about because there was another emergency which. And that started right around the time that you took on this role, I guess.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah, that One was in 2022. So we had. We were on the tail end of our campaign to end the pandemic vaccination campaign. And all of a sudden, this seismic emergency conflict really shifts our landscape. And at that point, like, we didn't have enough gift processing staff. Let's just say that for the amount the influx, I would say that the vaccination campaign work that we did was more of a slow build. Yes, we got some of those lead gifts that built traction and others joined. This was overnight, you know, I mean, okay, within a week, probably of people, the public really paying attention and wanting to understand how they could help and who was on the ground in that location doing what they can. So it was another instance where I believe at that when we raised 260 million in about 18 months. So we had two massive outlier years back to back where when I joined, we were about a $500 million organization. And for those years, we were either really close to or over a billion dollars.
- [46:57]
C
Where are things today?
- [47:00]
A
We've normalized a little bit, but there's still been growth. We're roughly in like the 800 million, so still some significant growth.
- [47:08]
C
And that's still, I guess, being driven in part. Well, obviously not just by events around the world and the needs of children and their families, but also a program that, that lets donors meet you where they are, but you also need to identify who they are and then build those portfolios and have a true understanding of them, not just as numbers or people on a spreadsheet, but something deeper and richer.
- [47:32]
A
Yeah, definitely. And one of the things that we're working on right now is an integrated full funnel marketing strategy and really optimizing that funnel. And what are we doing for brand awareness and top of funnel that will drive of the mid funnel where they're considering, oh, I think I want to get involved, but then eventually that we can spend an optimized amount of funds, meaning an efficient amount of funds to convert them into donors and supporters or at least convince them to join our email list or something like that. And so this has been a huge undertaking in the last, I'd say 18 months. So a more recent era in my time at UNICEF usa, where we are bringing together our brand team, our center of excellence in the marketing team, where marketing strategy happens and marketing analytics happens and different components of the fundraising division, plus technology and finance, to really look at like what would a full funnel integrated strategy look like? Because in the past we had very siloed. We had a brand campaign and then we had a conversion campaign and it was, there was no connecting threads or like tailored creative assets throughout the journey that reflected back to the donor that we knew that they had already encountered our brand or that we knew that they had already signed up for our email list or that we knew that they had already given to us. Right. So to your point of like meeting the donors where they're at, our work isn't done there. I'd say that we had rapid success on the high value like the, the top of the donor pyramid for sure. And that's what that campaign and that's what Ukraine and a couple other emergencies that happened after that gave us the opportunity to capitalize on. And now we're going back and reexamining our base. And how do we build that optimized donor or constituent journey through the marketing funnel so that then that helps us upgrade people throughout the donor pyramid more efficiently and like in a way with a consistent brand look and feel and messaging and donor experience like graduated tiers of engagement and stewardship.
- [49:31]
C
And just to make this clear, for organizations that aren't at that same scale, don't think globally may not have the same team or as many people or people with that kind of experience or plan. What's the risk of not integrating those kinds of strategies and the reward of doing so?
- [49:48]
A
The risk is inconsistent donor experiences. Donors might see your brand or communications from you in different spaces that just feel disjointed. They might even ask themselves, is this the same organization? Is this a doppelganger? Is this a fake organization? Are they like spoofing me? You know, it also when it, when it's disconnected in that way, it's expensive. You are spending more on your ads than you should be and you're not seeing the roi. So really when I think about the advantages to an integrated marketing strategy for brand and what we call performance marketing or like direct response, annual fund, whatever you want to call it, it's not just a better donor experience, it's also efficient spending, which is really important for nonprofits with public scrutiny about how much we spend. For some nonprofits, the marketing, like the ad budget or the direct mail budget, like whatever, however you want to think about that spend is one of the most expensive line items in your operating budget.
- [50:55]
C
So where did this fit in your five year plan? Or were you at year seven at this point? I mean you can't Predict certain things. You couldn't predict which bosses you would have, which software you might be able to get, who you could hire if they were available. And you certainly can't predict a worldwide pandemic of the scale that hadn't happened for 100 years or the first invasion in Europe since the Second World War. I mean, beyond what happened, obviously, with Serbia. But where did this fit with your own planning? Were you able to keep on course?
- [51:31]
A
You know, I never actually had on my tenure plan to reach, like, the head of advancement Services. I always thought I'd just kind of like, stay in the prospect development bubble. Honestly, I'm happy there. I've spent a lot of time there in my career. And while I think all of the Advancement Services work streams that report into me, which include gifts and records, donor stewardship, our 800 call centers or customer relations kind of, and our strategy and operations team, like all of them, have unique roles, I think prospect development in particular is the one that at this point drives the most impact, is the one that has the broadest view of the landscape, that sees the most opportunity, that finds the strategy that can really influence, for good and change. So I'm biased because that's my background. But for me, like, I had never thought that I would lead donor relations because, remember, I agreed to let go of donor communications. No one had to twist my arm, and now donor relations is back with me, right? So it's like it boomeranged back. I really had not put this on a pathway for myself. But as certain changes happen throughout the organization, new opportunities emerged. And I am a fan of saying yes to opportunities and being partially scared about whether I can do it or not. Not terrified, right? That's not a good situation for most people, but just like a ha, that'll be a challenge. That'll be a new challenge. Because I never like to be bored and I like to learn. And so while I can teach teams that report into me a lot about connecting into the larger strategy, finding the dots that we're all interconnected in our work, you know, if we're doing something differently in our acknowledgment process, hey, maybe prospect development needs to take that into account. Like, I can help them find the connected tissues and interdependencies across all of these teams. They teach me so much. Like, my favorite thing is to hire someone who is an expert in gift processing and teach me how to do that, right? Like, how can I be a better native data thinker about system design and gift processing in that regard? So I Found it really rewarding. But you're right, like I could not predict all of the things that would come up, especially in my almost six years now at unicef, because not only was it like the campaign and taking on gift processing and donor relations and, and building a brand new team for our strategy and operations, but it's. I couldn't predict that in the last year, other than the conflict between Israel and the state of Palestine, there have not been any emergencies that have broken through the noise of the news cycle. We used, if an earthquake struck, we used to raise a million dollars for that as a given. Now we raise like a hundred thousand. And it's shocking to me how much it doesn't get traction anymore. So like even encountering new landscape factors like that that are slightly disheartening, but trying to think about like how do we find an approach that resonates, how do we maximize our spend in direct response if the public aren't going to care? Right. So just reevaluating decisions, science around those have been really, really interesting to me and never things that I had seen for myself being on the radar or on the 10 year plan. Because while I've been at UNICEF USA, I'm currently serving as the interim for direct response which has been so rewarding and such a steep learning curve, but it's going to pay off so much in the knowledge I will keep with me when I go back to my advancement services only job and be an even better partner to the future head of Direct Respons. But that was like a huge stretch interim role that I, you know, maybe three years ago would have been terrified. But then I got like slightly immersed in the work and I was like, okay, maybe I can just like help keep trains running and not break anything, keep the seat warm until someone comes in. That was unplanned. But I also had the opportunity to do a stretch assignment with our impact investing fund called the Impact Fund for Children. And I mean, when you go to an APRA conference, Impact investing is like one of those darling topics that people love to sit in on and learn about. And I got to like embed myself with an impact investing team that thought about alternative financing vehicles and like just the opportunity to be able to do that was something I, I didn't even know that UNICEF USA had when I accepted the job and that the leader of that and I would hit it off and be like data and systems thinkers and big picture enterprise thinkers and want to bring more fundraising to that enterprise and where can we find, you know, the shared Value proposition of building things up together. So I just, I think honestly, yes, you have a ten year plan or a five year plan or maybe you have no plan. But plans are meant to change. That's why they're a plan. They're not written in cement or stone. And so I'm a huge fan of like say yes. Always say yes to an opportunity and find the value in it and then use that knowledge and that experience to inform what you say yes to in the future.
- [56:49]
C
That sounds like a great segue to another big thing, which was, and I'm sure this was in your plan. First you said that you wanted to chair a conference. I believe you did that, and probably more than one. I know you were also involved with the case conference. And then you took on a role on the board of APRA International and now you're in the President elect position. So I guess this means you'll take the helm in. I can't remember when, next September. So perhaps some of that was on that plan. I don't know which year. But of what you have learned in this environment, not just for yourself, but for the field, what do you think is the main takeaways that you're trying to bring then to all your colleagues who are in very different kinds of positions scattered across very different organizations around the world, really, many of whom have small budgets or haven't thought through this kind of almost systems thinking approach that you've had the opportunity and took the advantage of the opportunity to develop with your colleagues at unicef.
- [58:00]
A
Yeah, and you know, I have the benefit of having worked in two very small shops with very few resources. They weren't my favorite experiences, but I learned how to do more with limited resources. And so whenever I am writing something for the prospect development field or presenting on something or building a tool out, I always try to think about who could use this no matter what kind of organization. Like what, what is their takeaway? What is going to be a feasible like resource, probable time permitting? How can they get anything out of this, no matter if you're at a huge shop or a small shop? Because I think so many folks are marginalized by saying like, oh well, that won't work for us. Kind of like folks did@unicef USA about not being a campaign shop. It's like, well, let's just break it down to its most fundamental thing. Right? Like I just, I want it to be accessible and approachable no matter what I'm sharing, whether it's about team culture and how I built it@unicef US or forecasting methodologies, which is a huge passion area of mine. And I've done a lot of presentations in and I have a, like a, for instance, a workbook where like you can do the most basic version of pipeline forecasting. As long as you have a pipeline, you gotta start there, right? And here's how, here's the elements of the data points I would start with. But then you can get super uber sophisticated and have like a discounting model and weighted averages and things like that. So like, like it spans a spectrum. And that's usually what I'm always trying to help people understand whenever I'm engaging in Afro and kind of meeting other people where they're at, if they're in a more advanced shop, I can meet you there. But I can also talk about how do you build it in Excel? Because even when you're building a sophisticated thing, we often start with a prototype in Excel. Right. So, and then the other thing I would say about how I'm showing up with my opera hat on is trying to really help executives who may feel constrained, especially in our current landscape, by budgets and, you know, not having the staffing and having to make tough decisions about what staff to keep, just trying to help convey to them the importance of data driven decision making. Because especially in uncertain times where we don't know what is coming and we are all trying to stumble around in the dark around, where do we think we're going to land at the end of the year? What should our goal next year be? What do we think the potential is of our program? The way that you can answer that and the way that you can prepare for unknown circumstances is through data. And so when I see scores of individuals in the prospect development field facing layoffs right now because of budget constraints, I actually grow incredibly worried for the future of the fundraising industry. Because I do believe so much that prospect development are like the architects of fundraising strategy and data driven decision making. And so when I see individuals, you know, obviously you need frontline fundraisers to be able to make asks of donors to bring the gifts in. But. But those frontline fundraisers won't be able to do their best work if they don't have a prospect development counterpart optimizing with them, right? It's part art, it's part science. We know this. It's like the oldest adage about our field. But without that data component, leaders are going to have questions and answers are going to come from people's guts, which can be valuable, but you have to have that data counterpoint at least to be data informed, if not fully data driven. Got to have a data starting point to assess the current state trends and then let that inform decision making about where are the right cuts to be making. If you need to reduce staff, it might be in certain pockets of the front line if there aren't enough prospects to sustain the number of portfolio managers. Right. You can't do that unless you have a prospect development or data science person to help you make those assessments. So. So that would be like a little bit of my advocacy right now to anyone who would listen about the value of prospect development and what APRA or other associations within the Advancement Services umbrella kind of are bringing to the table and trying to lift up in these really challenging times for nonprofits.
- [62:27]
C
You talked before about silos in shops. I mean, and then obviously addressing that we've got silos within the industry. I know that in the past, from past experience, just trying to bring together the association, sometimes the same places, very valuable, but it can be challenging. Do you imagine that with the approach that you're taking and your leadership and that of your colleagues at Apropos, that there might be an opportunity to not just have a seat at the table like we used to say, but actually to be more like your team has been at unicef, to lead the charge and make sure there's a full integration of the different facets of development so that we're really serving mission more effectively?
- [63:18]
A
Yeah, I think so. And I think honestly it starts with Advancement services, right? Being able to be more integrated and do cross functional knowledge and cross functional training, even if you're not going to be subbing in. For someone who works in gift processing, I think it's important for someone in data science or relationship management to understand how the gift processing team works, because then the data patterns that they see and the solutions are trying to build will be better designed if they have mutual shared understanding of each other's work and the system constraints or the processes that everyone is working with then. And then once we are able to build that within the Advancement Services hub, I feel like that will create a more unified experience for the fundraisers, which will then create a more unified experience for the donors. Right. Like I heard the thing at the adrp, which is the association for Donor Relations Professionals conference that I was at a couple months ago, where it said, like wraparound surround sound, stewardship for our donors starts with how we steward your fundraising colleagues internally. Stewardship starts from within. And for me, I think building those relationships with your fundraisers, with fundraising leadership is the number One thing that we have to do, and I think that that's by, that's why I've been successful at UNICEF usa is by investing in those relationships not just with my own fundraising colleagues and peers that are leading fundraising, like Frontline fundraising team, but also with finance, with technology, with marketing. That's how I got put in, like put me in coach for this interim direct response thing because I had an enterprise lens and a network of trusted colleagues where we were already working together on certain things. Right. And so if we can address silos by relationship building, information sharing, I teach my marketing peer a little bit about fundraising, she teaches me a little bit about marketing. Right. It's that you gotta cross pollinate. You have to break concepts down for people. Don't use jargon, use plain language. And as you start to do that, you're gonna create that trust and transparency that's needed in order to be fully integrated. And fewer silos, I mean, you're never gonna get rid of all of them. But like it's all in a day's work, right. And, and progress is day by day. It's rare that we actually get to like take stock of how quickly the progress rate of change is happening. It just is like a daily grind. And sometimes it is that one step forward and two steps back the next day. But you have to continually make progress on integration. Curiosity, asking thoughtful questions, not accusations, thoughtful questions, assuming good intent, all of that is so critical.
- [66:11]
C
So looking ahead, what do you imagine for yourself? I mean, where is your, your latest 10 year plan taking you?
- [66:19]
A
And. Well, honestly, I'm flying by the seat of my pants right now. Usa. I have like multiple jobs right now, so I'm looking forward to being able to focus back on my philanthropy insight team. And I don't really have a lot of long term plans. I've toyed and I've shared this with my boss. It's not a huge surprised, but I've toyed with like if I'm ever going to take a next step and leave this organization that I just care a massive amount about, I think it would be perhaps for like a COO role, probably a smaller nonprofit, like a step down, but broader purview. Because a lot of the experience that I'm gaining lends itself a little bit more to like nonprofit management, not just fundraising and strategy, honestly. Right. Like how does this thing you're asking my team to take on ladder into our strategy. Let's pull up our strategic plan and you don't tell me the tactics you want me to do you tell me what is your end goal and I will help you think about the right tactics to get there. And so I think it's just been kind of cultivating me toward that. I don't know how to like really test that assumption that that might be the right next step for me. But. But I don't know. At this point, I feel like there's still so much I want to accomplish. At UNICEF usa, we have a very strong team. We've been recruiting people with a lot of industry experience and I wouldn't recognize the organization from six years ago that we have now. Today it's just been night and day and rapid, accelerated growth. So there's a lot to stay for. But on the personal front, we just purchased 40 acres out in Front Royal, Virginia and my husband's a winemaker. He is a lawyer by day, but winemaker, hobby, winemaker, home winemaker. And so we're gonna build a home out there and move out of Reston and plant a vineyard. And I'm an equestrian. So we will have a horse or 2 or 10 or I don't know how many on our property. So we'll have like a little home set, a vineyard, equestrian farm.
- [68:26]
C
Wow. Why horses?
- [68:29]
A
Why horses? They're majestic. And anyone who says differently, I have some fighting words for it. It's also one of the only sports where you're, you have a partner that's an animal. That's not a piece of equipment that you buy, right. And yes, the horses have different levels of aptitude and you can buy them made where they just like, it's kind of like out of the box versus homegrown. And you've put all the sweat equity into like developing and training that horse. But the horse can teach you. You can teach the horse. You also have a trainer usually that is like the objective coach for both of you. There's always something more to learn with a horse and progress is not linear. So it like mirrors my professional experience because, you know, one day we'll get a skill down and then we struggle with it the next and you're fine tuning constantly. But it also takes a lot of strength, endurance, balance, level headed. If you are not present while you're riding a horse, you're going to get hurt. And so for me, it didn't start this way, but it's really become this. For me. It is my me time. It is my Zen time. It is when I am not worried about the personnel matters I have to go hash out with HR or a setback with a technical system or friction with relationships at work. Like, I'm not worried about friend drama, family drama. I am like, me and the horse. What horse do I have with me today? How are they showing up? How am I showing up? And it's just incredibly peaceful. I mean, it's fun and exhilarating, but peaceful and relaxing at the same time. Sometimes my trainer will be like, you look like. Your face looks like you are on a roller coaster right now. I was like, because I'm so excited and it's thrilling and, like, jumping over this thing is so fun. I feel like I'm soaring and we're like two feet off the ground. But, you know, you're doing it at like 15, 20 miles an hour on a strong animal. It's. It's just so fun. And now my daughter is very into it as well. She's a horse girl as well. I've converted her. So, yeah, I don't know. I never rode as a child. My parents didn't believe me when I said I wanted to ride a horse, little pony. And in the Bay Area, like, I don't even know where I would do that. Right out here in Virginia, we're in horse country, so it makes a lot more sense. We found that opening, but my husband got me a, like, intro to horseback riding lesson for a birthday, and it was worst financial decision he ever made because I just kept going. And now it's like this whole other revenue stream and outlay Extreme. Yeah.
- [71:05]
B
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM podcast. You can learn more about UNICEF@unicefusa.org and for more information on APRA, go to aprahome.org Our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the world leader in AI powered fundraising intelligence solutions for the nonprofit sector. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise. And come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost.
- [71:46]
C
Thanks for joining me.