A (2:44)

Yeah. No, that's a great question. Well, first of all, my father in particular, was very interested in music and classical music in particular. My sister, in fact, didn't know that our stereo could play anything other than classical music until she realized that the radio dial actually did move. But so I grew up in a household, again, particularly with my dad, that was focused on classical music. And so I was surrounded all the time. And so I started playing the keyboard instrument early on, actually the organ. And then eventually it came time for. To pick out an instrument at school, and I wanted to play the saxophone. The band teacher had a shortage of trombone players and saw that my arms were long enough to get to seventh position, and that was really it. And so, as with a lot of things in life, there's a little bit of serendipity that enters into it. I'm grateful for where that all landed.

B (3:53)

When did that start? Was that a fourth grade?

A (3:55)

Yeah, it was a fourth. I think a fourth grade.

B (3:58)

So the public school system.

A (3:59)

Public school system. And you went in and it was kind of the petting zoo situation where all the instruments were laid out. I was initially drawn to the saxophone. I thought it was very shiny and interesting and. And it turns out the. The trombone called me.

B (4:17)

Yeah, well, it's a sound that can be heard from afar, so it can be.

A (4:23)

Yes. We tend not to get a lot of encouragement from the conductors. You know, they're usually. It's. It's getting the hand, not, you know, we need you to play louder.

B (4:37)

So a musical household. Were your parents just listeners or were they musicians?

A (4:43)

So my dad served during the Korean conflict, and he was in the Navy, and he actually was stationed in Florida, and he was the assistant to the chaplain. And in that role, his main responsibility was to conduct the choir. Now, he wasn't a trained musician, but he had a pretty good. Pretty good ear. And he sang in a lot of choirs growing up. And so that was his. His role to. Basically, I think he described it as, you know, conducting the choir and where he was stationed and fishing with the chaplain. So not. Not heavy duty, as he described it, but. So that was the family involvement in music. Again, mostly on my. On my dad's side.

B (5:30)

Yeah. And this was. Where were you growing up?

A (5:33)

I grew up on the Illinois, Wisconsin border, so a place called South Beloit, which is in Illinois, and Beloitz in Wisconsin.

B (5:40)

Yeah. And it sounds like a town also, that at least made some commitment to offering music for the students because you were participating in the program.

A (5:51)

Yeah. I do feel like at that point in time that there were maybe more options for music in the public Schools, so I was grateful for that. And Beloit College was right nearby, right across the border, and that had a pretty good music program. And so one of the organ instructors there actually gave me lessons on the. On the keyboard as well. So had quite a few opportunities to explore. And, you know, it's. It's absolutely life changing, right? To, you know, from my perspective, to have that discipline and the opportunity to collaborate with others in an ensemble setting, it just was my community. And so I'm grateful that it's led me to this point in my career where I can nurture that for future generations.

B (6:51)

That's interesting, the way you describe it as my community. So the musicians, the members of the band, all the people who are in. In the arts, do you still have. Are you still in touch with people from that time?

A (7:01)

Oh, for sure, yeah, absolutely. No. I graduated with a degree in trombone performance, and I was in the trombone trio that played at the Fish off competition. And this friend of mine who was part of the ensemble, he was traveling up into this area and we reconnected and it was just like yesterday, right? You know, you just pick up where you left off. And I think a lot of us have situations like that where it doesn't feel like a day has passed. But, yeah, some really amazing friends. And I think about my current situation right now and where I'm surrounded by all of these young musicians and they're talking about Mahler and Bruckner and Shostakovich and. And this recording versus that recording, and I'm thinking, wow, you're 15, 16 years old and this is the passion that's ignited you. It's just awesome to watch.

B (8:06)

I wonder if that's an experience not only that you remember having yourself, even though it wasn't like Interlochen in the public school system, but also I wonder how different it is now. And you probably see this for people entering Interlochen, because the music programs of that time, they aren't as ubiquitous. I mean, they aren't offered everywhere anymore.

A (8:31)

Yeah, right, right. Yeah. It's clearly an area of focus for us. I think people right now refer to it as youth arts education, as creative youth development as a phrase that is often thrown about. And creative youth development is really this idea that a young person obviously develops as an artist, but at the same time they're developing as a person just by virtue of throwing themselves into this discipline. So I guess it's maybe a new name for something that has existed for a while, but now you're seeing a lot of these creative youth Development organizations that are after school programs. And we're, you know, we're working with, you know, hundreds of these organizations across the country at this point. And it's, you know, they're filling a gap that exists and they're doing it in really awesome ways. And so it's a privilege for us to be able to partner with organizations like, you know, Play On Philly or Miami Music Project or Young Musicians Unite or all of these institute, you know, Nuvo Chamber Players, My Cincinnati. They're everywhere in every city and they're just doing great work.

B (9:53)

That's relatively new for Interlochen to have that kind of outreach.

A (9:58)

I think it is. You know, we looked at this recently and we maybe had a half a dozen or so partnerships maybe eight, nine years ago. And recently we looked at it again and we've got 130 across the country. And these are situations where these institutions are regularly now sending their students to Interlochen in the summer. And one person described it to me and basically said, for the cost of an airline ticket, I can introduce a young person to the world. And what he meant by that is I get this young artist to interlock. And then they're in a cabin with kids from South Korea and Columbia and Wichita, Kansas and New York City and they're all, and they're studying music and theater and dance and visual arts. And it's this exposure that really happens in a summer program that's remarkable. And I'm, you know, I fortunately was able to, you know, take in some camps when I was younger. And it's just like this life changing experience to be able to get away and develop that independence and all that comes with it.

B (11:26)

Now I realize that for someone listening to this and not aware of interlock and that some of this will be a little mysterious, but will we will get back to what interlocking is in a moment because that will help to explain that. But I think you just tapped into another part of this conversation about you, which is that you were able to take advantage of that musical opportunity. You were receiving encouragement from your own family. That was a great recipe. Plus your own individual interest, your talent, your commitment to continue doing that work. You studied trombone, you went there, I guess as a music performance major and then you completed that degree. Did you imagine that you would be playing in a symphony or a band or what did you think would happen when you finished your degree in music?

A (12:13)

That's a great question. I think early on when someone goes in and particularly gets a music performance degree, you aspire for a career. Performing. That's how you'll make your living. And certainly when I was going through college, I did, you know, I didn't come from a family with great means. And so I worked my way through college. I was freelancing in Chicago. I was teaching little kids to play music, and I was running a tiny little orchestra. A volunteer orchestra. Yeah, it was, you know, it's a community orchestra in Northern Illinois, and it basically involved moving stands and chairs around. It wasn't overly complicated, but, you know, kind of cobbling things together. But, yeah, one of my hopes was that I would, you know, play in an orchestra someday. And as I got further into my degree, I was starting to do these other things, and administration was a piece of it. And, you know, we know it's tremendously competitive to get a job in a major orchestra, or any orchestra for that matter. You know, hundreds of people will audition, and there's only one person that gets the job at the end of the day. And while I was doing pretty well freelancing, I was doing better in. In administrative roles. It just. It suited me, and I, you know, felt like I was making an impact. So going in, you know, things just evolved and changed and shifted. And so at a certain point, I was, you know, got into a fellowship program that was pretty selective, and that was really a major, major shift for me in my career.

B (14:11)

And did you have this idea that then you would be in administration for orchestras, or was this a kind of a broader opportunity?

A (14:19)

This fellowship was through the League of American Orchestras. That's what it's called today. And so I worked at the Pittsburgh Symphony and the New York Philharmonic and the Fort Worth Symphony, and it was assignments that were three or four months each, and I did that throughout the course of the year. And that was very focused on training future orchestra leaders. And so initially, that was my path to manage orchestras, and I started doing that pretty early on. So it was quite focused in that sense. And so while here I sit at Interlochen today, which is different from managing an orchestra, there's certainly lots of things from that experience that carry over. Right.

B (15:08)

And you said something a moment ago that struck me, which is the competitiveness of getting a role sitting in a seat in an orchestra of any type anywhere. It's very true for people who don't know this world. I try to compare it to something that they'll watch on Sundays, like football, where a lot of people play. Very few are going to be able to play professionally, or ballet, which is, you know, kind of A similar thing. And then you might have a finite timeline for many people. But that's also true for administration. I mean, maybe not all administration, but there are only so many roles running an orchestra, right?

A (15:44)

That is true, especially when you get into the, into the upper ranks. And you know, it is, it's totally a fair point. There are only so many CEO jobs of major orchestras or there's only one job, you know, at Interlochen in this particular capacity. So I think that's maybe the difference is that for the hundred people that say, show up for a trombone audition with the Chicago Symphony, there's going to be one person that's going to get that job and then the 99 other people are going to try and get a job with whatever other orchestra job is available. And so, you know, my experience and look, I started my, the first job where I was president of an orchestra was the Syracuse Symphony. And the level of musicians there was just extraordinary. You know, it's not, you know, I say this, you know, respectfully, but the difference between getting in one orchestra versus another, you know, can be just what happens on any given day. Just the quality is pretty extraordinary to get into any of these, you know, major institutions.

B (17:16)

But you had a step in between, didn't you? Because I know you went to grad school. So did Syracuse precede going back and then getting in an MBA or.

A (17:24)

Yeah, it did. It did. So I was leading the Syracuse Symphony. I was there for five years in all and three of those were as the president of the Syracuse Symphony. And then I went to lead the Florida Philharmonic. That was a complicated situation and basically was involved in closing the institution down. I, you know, that was, I was there less than a year and the institution was troubled and basically we, it's a quite longer story, but the upshot is that the board voted to close the organization down.

B (18:09)

Was this a financial issue that's true for so many orchestras and has been over the last 30 years?

A (18:15)

And yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, that was the case. It was a financial situation just to get a, you know, one click deeper on it. Essentially there were bequests that were used to support operations rather than going into the endowment. The endowment had been eroded, so it was essentially non existent. And then there were a lot of special one time gifts that were used to kind of keep the institution afloat. And the donors who are making those special one time gifts essentially said, look, enough is enough, you know, can't keep doing this in an unsustainable manner. And so those were some of the key Issues. I'd also say that there were the level of sustainable support for the institution was just not sufficient to sustain what was a $10 million budget at the time. So it basically had kind of the support system in place for a five or six million dollars a year institution, but it was running at a $10 million expense budget. And it doesn't take a

B (19:32)

too much

A (19:32)

of a math major to figure out that, that, you know, that really doesn't, doesn't work. And so essentially I was on the job for three months, did a financial audit, came back to the board and said, look, you know, here, there are three options here. One is we're going to need X dollars to truly solve the issue. Two is we're going to need Y dollars to get us through another year and then we're going to have to reassess from there. Or you can call the question on whether the institution is viable or not. And the board made the decision almost unanimously to close the institution down.

B (20:14)

That almost sounds like a consulting assignment or a bridge to doing the kind of consulting you later did. But what did it feel like for you to go in to take that job and then in less than a year have to be part of shutting down something that you loved?

A (20:29)

It was the hardest. Professional situation I have ever dealt with by far. Because, you know, to that point in my career, I had had nothing but sort of progress and impact and taking institutions from one place to another. And, you know, I went, went into the organization really expecting to continue that upward trajectory for the institution to make progress. And the thing that was most difficult about it is that every organization is going to have challenges. It's, it comes with the territory. There are going to be issues that need to be solved, but when it comes to people's livelihoods and the jobs that they rely upon, that was especially challenging for me. And it was after the Florida Philharmonic that I did go to business school. And there were some real questions for me around do I get back into the fray? Do I get back into leading an arts institution or not? Because I was really recoiling from that situation. And fortunately I had some really good mentors around me. And there was a call that I had with Jim Collins who wrote From Good to Great. And it was maybe a year after this all went down and I'm still emotionally processing this. Obviously I'm in business school, it's a two year thing, so I've got time to kind of think about what's next. And he shared this story about a class that he led where he Had a business leader who was sort of quietly sitting in the back of the classroom and they were talking about this business that had failed. And it was a typical case study course. And a student said, well, maybe they should have done this or maybe the business should have done that and et cetera. And at one point Jim revealed that here's this business leader in the corner who was. And the business leader said, well, we tried this. It didn't work because of this. We couldn't really do this because of this situation, and we couldn't do that because of this. And. And then he said to me a phrase that was the most liberating sentence ever. He said, sometimes the solution set is

B (23:27)

null,

A (23:29)

essentially, meaning, you know, sometimes there isn't an answer.

B (23:34)

Wow.

A (23:34)

And maybe there was. I do look back on that situation and there are things that I would have done differently. There are no doubt about. There's no doubt about that. But, you know, when he said, sometimes the solution set is null, it was a relief to me that, you know, there are sometimes that there's just not an answer.

B (23:56)

And that's true not just for an organization that might be facing its demise, but it's also true within an institution that's thriving. There are problems, I guess, and sometimes there's no solution. Is that right?

A (24:09)

Well, I think that it's rare that there's not a path forward, but in terms of this sort of existential question about whether the organization could have been saved or not, I think. Well, let me put it this way. There's not been a successor to the Florida Philharmonic, and this happened in early 2000. So it's not as though anything has really come in to succeed the institution. So it does suggest that maybe the environment was not ripe for supporting the institution.

B (24:56)

I think that there are only a dozen or so orchestras today that are all year long, a continual season.

A (25:04)

Yeah, the last I checked, there was maybe 15 or so. You know, when I was with the Cincinnati Symphony, it was one of the handful of Orchestras that's a 52 year or 52 week a year orchestra.

B (25:19)

Right.

A (25:20)

But it is pretty rare. And the Florida Philharmonic was not, was not in that. In that category. So it wasn't a 52 week orchestra. And so, you know, in. I think there were lessons to be learned from it. But. Yeah, it's, you know, it was definitely a tough experience, but one I, I learned from. And yeah, and I think the biggest lesson for me was from that entire experience because I do consider it the greatest learning experience in my career is that, you know, Bad news doesn't get better with age. And you really have to deal with things as quickly as they emerge. And that's not to say that there's any sort of timetable on how quickly a problem can be solved. But you can't just hope that something will go away because it, you know, won't. It's going to have to deal with the tough things. And so when I was in similarly challenging situations, say when I started at the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and it had a major financial challenge when I started, I mean, it was.

B (26:42)

You were in a significant deficit at that point, or were you?

A (26:44)

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. A multimillion dollar structural deficit. And whereas at the Florida Philharmonic, it took several months to get to an agreement with the musicians, and I put that loosely because it wasn't a pleasant conversation to reduce the cost structure, which meant basically across the board, cuts and pay. At the Cincinnati Symphony, by comparison, that conversation happened very, very quickly. You know, I started there in January 6th of 2009, and we had a. We had a new agreement with the musicians before the month of January was up.

B (27:37)

When you come in and do something like that, especially at a place with a long history, and the Cincinnati has a very long history. It's one of the leading orchestras in the country, if not the world. So how did they view you? Did they see you as their friend, as an interloper? How did you navigate tough, Doing tough things as the new leader?

A (28:03)

Well, first of all, I give all of the credit to the leadership of the. The players committee, the orchestra committee, for giving the latitude in that particular situation, because it was a leap of faith on their part, you know, to trust a new leader. And whether it was the leadership of the. Of the union or the players committee, they did make a leap of faith. And that, I think, was probably the greatest opportunity that could have been given to me, the board, the institution. And, you know, one of the points that I made during that process is like, my best use of time is to be out sharing the vision for the Cincinnati Symphony, raising money for the Cincinnati Symphony, and by having an agreement with the musicians that reflected the financial challenges that were in place at that time, gave a much greater, more powerful platform to raise the support to bridge the gap that remained. Because the gap was wide. The cost structure reductions were about $2.9 million, if I recall correctly. And the gap was greater, far greater than that. And so it's not as though we solved the problem. We showed the community that, hey, we're working together in a constructive manner. We've done our part to tighten the belt, but we need the community support. And so by the time February rolled around, I was able to be out in the community really trying to raise. Raise support, to jump ahead a little bit. In December of 2029 was when Louise Dieterle Nippert established the $85 million Musical Arts Fund that in large part helped address that gap that persisted. And so the musicians were generous in reducing the cost structure. Then there was an $85 million contribution that happened about 10 months later that

B (30:45)

this was what year again? I'm sorry?

A (30:47)

2009.

B (30:49)

Oh, 2009.

A (30:50)

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And. And the advisor who was involved in facilitating that gift basically said that had we not come together as an institution in a constructive way between board administration and management and musicians, that gift would not have happened. So, again, going from Florida to the Cincinnati experience, one, we dealt with things very, very quickly. There were leaps of faith. There was a level of trust that, deserved or not, was given on the part of the musicians. And the donor community really responded to this collaborative approach and this notion that people were really working together to preserve this community asset. And, you know, not to say that that's going to result in gifts at that level. I mean, that's extraordinary. But that gift would not have happened had we not come at it with that sort of spirit of cooperation.

B (32:08)

The fundraising part of this is really tough, and it's been particularly tough in the arts for a long time. And I'm wondering if there's something that you learned from all that that you take with you now, and not just about talking to people who might have the resources and making a convincing case, but maybe more broadly the kinds of things that you've done to build that trust internally and externally and to give the people an opportunity to invest in ways where they felt like they were partners.

A (32:40)

Yeah. So I think that, I mean, this is a theme that, you know, you no doubt have heard and have practiced, but everything really begins, I think, with vision for where you see the institution going in the future. Where are the opportunities for additional impact? What is that next step that an organization can take? And I think a vision developed in partnership with all of the stakeholders is one that's going to resonate most. And so to your point about establishing trust, when you're starting as a new leader and having those conversations with, whether it's in the arts or in an educational institution, audience members or alumni, board members, donors, faculty, musicians, staff, all of those stakeholders that really care about the institution. And, you know, as my dad said, you've got two ears and one mouth, so listen twice as much as you talk. Really listening is just kind of fundraising 101. But to the extent that that shapes the vision and people see themselves in that vision, it's the key. And so whether it was Cincinnati or here at Interlock, and you come back and you play that vision back and say, this is what we've heard, this is what you see, this is what we see. Now let's shape that into where we want to go next. It tends to resonate and then within that larger vision, I think it's a matter of finding that intersection. The Venn diagram, where this is the institution's vision, this is the philanthropist personal worldview, where is that point where everything meets? And that's where the largest philanthropy tends to emerge.

B (34:59)

Right. Finding that point instead of viewing it as adversarial, which sometimes people talk about fundraising and philanthropy in this almost adversarial fashion, or that's something they don't want to do. It sounds like it was just part and parcel of running the symphony.

A (35:14)

Well, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, it's interesting, the language around philanthropy that's so, you know, I'm going to hit them up or twist their arm or all of this. It's just, I don't know where that, where that comes from because, you know, philanthropy at its best is just a joyful experience. And so, yeah, lots of, you know, the experience is the greatest teacher. Right.

B (35:44)

So, and speaking of experience, you were there for a while. So was this. How many years was it that you were.

A (35:50)

I was there eight and a half years, so.

B (35:52)

And things did go well. I mean, you didn't just resolve it at the get go, but I understand they're doing quite well today.

A (35:59)

Yeah, no, it's, I think, I think the Cincinnati, I'm biased, but I think it's the, you know, it's the, it's the greatest orchestra in the country and I know that there's a bias there, but, you know, you got to tip your hat to a relatively small community that is a year round orchestra and they're doing great work. The, you know, the President now Robert McGrath was a, was the general manager or COO when, when, when I was there and he's just doing an amazing job. That the team is great. But you know, to have an orchestra that is, you know, does the classical concerts, the Cincinnati Pops plays for the opera, the ballet, the Cincinnati May Festival and that's that amazing choral festival, it's just, you know, it's highly Community engaged. So it's a great institution.

B (37:04)

So why leave or why go to Interlochen specifically? I mean, Interlochen is a totally different environment. And for people who don't know what it is. How would you describe to someone who really has no idea what Interlochen is?

A (37:17)

Yeah, well, I would say that Interlochen. Well, just to give a brief history. So interlochen started in 1928 as a music only, summer only national camp. And over the years it expanded to every artistic discipline all year round, both with a camp and a boarding school, and global. So this year we've got kids from 49 different countries that have come to Interlochen, whether it's in the summer camp or during the academy year. So between the camp and the boarding school, we've got a great level of focus on young creatives. And for the camp that's 8 to 18 and for the interlocking arts academy, the boarding school, it's really high school age with a post grad year, a single postgrad year is an option. And so in short, we're developing the next generation of creative change makers. You know, these are young people that are going to get, they're inspired by the arts and you know, not all of them will be in the arts ultimately, but many, many of them will. And in all cases they have a creative bent that is going to give them an edge whatever they do. So that's, you know, that's interlocking maybe in a nutshell. And to your question about, you know, why make the change when it, you know, when my wife and I were heading to Cincinnati in 2009, you know, the Cincinnati Symphony is one of the, I think at the time it had like the 6 or 7th largest budget among symphony orchestras. And that's for a variety of reasons we don't need to really get into, but it's a big institution. And she said, you know, is this the last job? Is Cincinnati the last job? And I said, well, there's three jobs that I'd be interested in at least considering. And Interlochen was one of them. And so.

B (39:35)

But you hadn't been there before. I mean, you hadn't attended there as a camper or a student white. So how did you even know about Interlochen aside from of course, the musicians that were at places like Cincinnati?

A (39:47)

Yeah, so. Well, first of all, I knew about Interlochen initially through family connections up in northern Michigan. So my grandpa had a cottage up in this area. Interlochen Public Radio, which is part of Interlochen, was Actually, my first exposure to Interlochen was not through the camp or the academy, but it was through the public radio service. And I wish that I could have come as a camper, you know, when I mentioned earlier growing up, you know, without great means, I wouldn't have thought to have asked my parents to send me to Interlaken just because I thought financially it was out of reach. And we can come back to that later because that's a real big focus of mine for our work today. So I'd always known of it. I'd always sensed it as one of the leaders in youth arts education. But the real reason why Interlochen was of interest to me is throughout my career in orchestra management that dates Back to the mid-1990s, every Interlochen alum that I met was different in the most positive way. In other words, they had a broader perspective on the arts, a multidisciplinary perspective on the arts, a, you know, a global view. And I think it's because the DNA of this place is multidisciplinary. It invites people from all over the country and the world to participate in this unique educational setting. Is that there's. There's an X factor that I saw in Interlocking Alums that completely entranced me with this institution. So that was. That was a big factor, you know, would be. And the other aspect I would say, Jay, is that because I've been approached about getting involved in leading a conservatory or something at the higher ed level. And I just felt as though this particular age range is. Is less. It's less of a vocational school where you can come and you can do what you want. You don't have to take the yellow bus to the high school that you really hate. You can be in a place where you're nurturing your passion. And that was not the high school experience that I had. You know, there were lots of things about high school that. That I. That I liked. It wasn't a bad experience. It just wasn't a great experience. And interlocking is a. Is, I think, for the most part, you know, this, you know, creative fountain of youth. And the students here really appreciate the opportunity that they've got to be in this environment. So a long answer to a short question.

B (43:22)

Well, and. And I know there's so much we could talk about, but I don't know. Also, you don't have unlimited time. But let me. Let me ask you just a couple things. And one is, this is now. Is this 15 years on since you joined Interlochen? I'm trying to remember.

A (43:36)

Oh, so no, I got here in 2017.

B (43:38)

Oh, 2017. Excuse me. Okay, so. So nine years. Not. Yes. So a lot has happened in those nine years for Interlochen and for the world and in arts education specifically. So there's almost too much to take apart. But one of the things that happened, of course, was that as fewer education programs were available in the arts, places like Interlochen were even more special. But it also became more expensive, not because Interlochen was charging too much, but because it costs a lot to run a place like Interlock. You have a big budget and you raise a lot of money for it, and it costs that. But also, at least historically, I think 75% of the kids were on scholarship. So there's a big cost right there. So you have one thing which is people want to go, but it costs a lot to go. And maybe there's a fundraising challenge to do that. You built a lot with the Sasaki plan, which we won't go into in detail here, but it's a lot. There are a lot of buildings there, a lot of opportunity for people who go. And then finally, not finally, but in the middle of all this, you dealt with COVID just like everybody else did, which means lockdowns on campus when the students were there. And it also means for the students who weren't going to go in the summer, trying to work at a distance learning program. So take your pick of that crazy collection of cards. What was the hardest thing that you encountered during that time?

A (45:04)

Yeah, for sure. Well, with the time that we've got, I do want to speak a little bit to maybe the easy part, or not the easy part, but the fun part, because I think it is relevant to getting back a little bit to the thing that's the most challenging. And we talked about vision earlier, and one of the clear observations was that we were finishing the Sasaki plan, 17 facilities over a 30 year period. And that took a lot of energy to accomplish. And it happened over multiple presidencies. Certainly my predecessor did a heavy lift to get many of these initiatives accomplished, you know, but we finished three projects and then it became the question became like, what is next for interlocking? And that what's next question was answered really in two ways. One was we want to meet the full demonstrated need of every student, young person who's accepted to Interlock in, who's given. Given an offer of admission. And then the other piece we heard from all of our stakeholders is we want to be better. We want to Invest in our faculty, in our visiting artists, in our student wellness programs, in our residential life programs. We want to pursue these major special initiatives like the one that we're doing in the spring where we're touring with Yo Yo Ma and doing this big world premiere with Wynton Marcellus. So it was access on one side and excellence on the other. And to that point, Jay, we had basically done one thing at a time. We're going to do the build the music center, then we're going to build the dance center, and then we're going to build this new residence hall. So it's one thing at a time. We went back to our stakeholders and said, okay, we've heard you. There's an emphasis on access, there's an emphasis on excellence. What is most important? And it came back 50, 50. So half said focus on access, half said focus on excellence. And that became the basis for what is this emphasis? We're trying to do push on both of these areas. And we started this campaign quietly in July of 2021, and it's just going amazingly well. But that, that has been the, you know, a substantial focus of our attention is, you know, how do we meet the full demonstrated need of every student? And that is going to be very, very expensive, and we need to endow it. And then how do we achieve higher levels of excellence? And that's also expensive as well. So coming back to your question about challenges, and there are a bunch, for sure, but I give that context because during COVID which, if you look at the industries that were most impacted, you know, education, the performing arts, the hospitality industry, interlocking is in all three of those. And so there wasn't a place to hide for us. It was just we're kind of under siege on every level. And the thing I'm most proud of is that the team not only helped us get through that, but we kept our eye on the larger vision, these bigger goals. And so that we didn't say, okay, we're going to hit the pause button on everything and we're just going to get through Covid. We were able to do both. We were able to get through Covid safely. We actually had in person instruction starting In August of 2020, outdoors in northern Michigan. And so we started early, went straight through contained campus, but we kept our focus on the vision. We kept telling that story, and gratefully, I think we came out of that in a strong place. And here we are, we're ready to ideally achieve these goals. And we celebrate our 100th anniversary in 2028.

B (49:58)

So that's a big one. From the days of digging a hole in the ground and asking people for money to fill it back in 1929 to today. So what is your biggest hope personally, both for Interlock and as you approach 100, but also, frankly, for you and for your family, because you're deeply invested in this. You've worked hard. Interlochen is a thriving institution. But I'm sure that you have dreams for Interlocking and dreams for yourself. What do those look like?

A (50:31)

I think the. Well, I've been pretty clear that I'll judge my presidency on whether we're able to meet the full demonstrated need of every young person who earns admission to this place. You ask about the institutional hopes and my personal hopes. This is personal for me because I feel as a kid who grew up in rural Northern Illinois that a place like. I don't want a place like Interlocking to be out of reach for a kid, regardless of their zip code, regardless of their parents bank accounts. And that's. That's just important. And we are on the cusp of making a great breakthrough in that regard. So that's. That's especially important for our community as we approach our 100th anniversary. I want this to be a place where alumni and all those who've been a part of this place can reconnect, that they can look at Interlochen and say, I believe in the values of the place, that, you know, that we're, you know, trying to our very best to do, you know, the right thing for our students and for our community, and that this is an institution that they can, you know, that they believe in and support and that they see that this place is opening up doors for young people to really understand themselves and their place in the world in the most positive way.

B (52:17)

Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about Interlaken center for the arts@interlaken.org Our thanks to our sponsor, Evertrue, the global leader in donor engagement and fundraising intelligence, helping nonprofits find, engage, and inspire their supporters. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor, provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise. Until next time, I'm Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.