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- [00:00]
Ted Grossnickel
You know you're probably not going to change people's minds with your best arguments. What you're probably best recommended to do is to find out about the things that you share a love for, whether it's a hobby or a family member or baseball or what you you find the things that are links and you.
- [00:25]
Jay Frost
Emphasize those welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy, and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. Today we have two leaders Lee Ernst is Chief Executive Officer and senior Consultant at Johnson, Grossnickel and Associates, where she leads strategic partnerships and new product development while advising nonprofit clients across education, the arts, and social services. Her career spans major institutions, including a leadership role at the University of Chicago during the institution's $2 billion campaign and the Salvation Army's Chicago division. She's past chair of the Giving Institute Summer Symposium and a member of the Communications Task Force for the Generosity Commission. Ted Grossnickel serves as chair of the JGA Board of Directors, as managing counsel to several clients, and as a mentor to staff. He has received numerous honors and awards for his Achie achievements, including the Henry A. Rosso Medal for Lifetime Achievement and Ethical Fundraising. He currently serves as a member and as former chair of the Giving Institute, its counselor to the Generosity Commission, and as past board chair and a current member of the Indiana University Lilly Family School of Philanthropy Board of Visitors. In this conversation, we explore their careers, their shared values, and their vision for the future of philanthropy, and along the way discover a personal connection that makes this story a even more meaningful.
- [02:00]
Lee Ernst
It's great to see you both, and I wanted to start by asking questions that are hard to ask of two people. So maybe I'll just, if you don't mind, I'll start with you, Ted, and ask you why you're involved in this strange field that we're in. I understand that you got involved in it from the world of higher ed, is that right?
- [02:24]
Ted Grossnickel
You mean in this strange world of advancement and consulting and philanthropy in general?
- [02:31]
Lee Ernst
Yeah.
- [02:33]
Ted Grossnickel
Happy accident and design, if it's possible to combine the two. Very early on. Many, many years ago when I first started, I got captured pretty quickly by what I still refer to as the magic. When somebody has an idea and the application of money to the idea causes something to happen that would not have happened before. It's the essence. And generosity, it's where that synapse is the spark. And I've always been fascinated by that. And Observing that moment when we see in our volunteer work, or we see one of our clients capture somebody's interest and their passion and they decide to apply resources to it. So I never get tired of that. It's a little bit of a fuel, maybe. Maybe it's closer to the truth to say it's a mild form of addiction, but I've got it.
- [03:32]
Lee Ernst
So when did you take your first hit? When? What was the first time that you, you got together with someone, you actually had that, that first experience of engaging in philanthropy? Where was it? When was it?
- [03:44]
Ted Grossnickel
I was, I was in Cincinnati as a loaned volunteer to United Way. And you know, that's many years back, but I, I watched people who were making less money than I was as a young guy right out of college, pledging to help other people because they all knew that we're in it together, sort of common work, and I was inspired by them.
- [04:21]
Lee Ernst
And do you remember your first meetings? Because they can be pretty, I don't know, fun, but perilous. What was it like to go out there as a loaned employee and make those.
- [04:33]
Ted Grossnickel
I had no idea what I was doing. You know, United Way gave you training, but I was still way too young to be trusted with what I had been assigned to do. But they needed the help and so I went off and again, the interesting thing was when, when you trust that other people are well intentioned. My experience in life is 19 out of 20 times. They won't disappoint you. In fact, they'll surprise you. And they were the ones that really carried the day and made the gifts. And I happened to be a minor catalyst, but I learned and again found that it was mildly addictive. I, I probably stop using that metaphor, but it was a lot of luck the first time around.
- [05:29]
Lee Ernst
And it sounds like that was a kind of a happy accident. You, you would. When you went to school, did you go to school to study this thing? Did you know what it was before this?
- [05:42]
Ted Grossnickel
Not really. I was fortunate to go to Wabash College, liberal arts grad, and had got accepted to law school and then suddenly decided, good heavens, I don't want to go to law school. So I took job interviews and worked at Procter & Gamble Company in Cincinnati. And that's from where I was a volunteer for United Way, so. So, no, I went into it reasonably unthinkingly, and that's why I deliberately used the term at the beginning. Jay. Happy accident.
- [06:25]
Lee Ernst
Yeah.
- [06:26]
Ted Grossnickel
How many, how many people? When you get out of college, you don't know what you really want to do discover within a couple of years. Wow. I've found something that can, that I can be passionate about for a long time. That. That was 50 years ago, Lee.
- [06:43]
Lee Ernst
That's a perfect segue for you. I, I'm pretty sure that you knew that this field existed by the time you were getting out of college, but what was your journey? Where, where were you? What were you studying? And then did you have your own personal version of this happy accident? What led you to doing this work?
- [07:04]
I. First of all, it's good to see you, Jay. It's always good to be with you. I knew what I didn't want to do, but I didn't know what I did want to do, like so many probably. So I was coming out of Miami of Ohio, and I'd had a terrific experience studying abroad. And I thought I was, well, quite smart by just extending my post college experience by finding a student visa that allowed me to work in Europe for six months. So I first went to Europe, to Ireland for about six months after graduation. And to be honest, it bought me the time I needed to do further discernment on what I wanted to do. And when you are making minimum wage at the bakery down the street and cobbling together enough pounds or euros, I should say, to, to buy your croissant for dinner, you quickly learn that maybe you'll figure it out a little quicker than you thought.
- [08:03]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [08:04]
Lee Ernst
The six months was exactly what I needed. And I had heard about the field, I knew about the field of fundraising, but I was very adamant that my career was going to be my own and it was going to be something that I chose for my own reasoning and that I wasn't going to be following footsteps or doing anything that I felt was, you know, disgenuous to my own interest. And so my first real fundraising job was during my graduate school years at the Salvation Army. And it was a wonderful way, a little bit to your point, Ted, to learn how to figure it out. I probably was doing asks I was not ready for. They were probably trusting me way too much with time with donors. But I quickly realized that what was this nagging thought in the back of my head was actually true, which was building connections and relationships with people. I loved it, it felt good. It drove me to want to do more, and I was putting myself in front of people that were extremely generous and cared about their community. So to Ted's metaphor on addiction, it made me want to do it more. I found how much I enjoyed the work and I how did I get so lucky? To be paid to do something like this, where I get to listen and learn from people that have been highly successful and care about their surroundings, that's a, that's a pretty good gig. So that's, that's kind of how it, how it started.
- [09:42]
These are both service organizations too, that you're talking about as your entry points. So they're different organizations. They have their own type of service, they interact differently with the communities, but they're very much right there on the ground level. I wonder if that also contributed to this because like Lee, in your case, did you kind of see the work from a different vantage point than you were seeing the world when you were a student or growing up?
- [10:09]
You know, it's a good question. I mean, probably, I wish I could say I was that deeply self aware and self reflective in my early 20s, but let's be honest, probably not. That probably came later, but, but what I did, where I could start to make maybe some of those connections or parallels, you know, in college I did a lot of volunteering at Big Brothers, Big Sisters.
- [10:31]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [10:31]
Lee Ernst
And that was really transformative to build these relationships. And it was, you know, I remember there were times where I wasn't really sure when I would drop off my little sister, if I was putting her in a safe environment.
- [10:42]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [10:42]
Lee Ernst
I mean, that's a hard feeling to try to grapple with as a 19 or 20 year old.
- [10:48]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [10:48]
Lee Ernst
As I'm driving back to my bubble at Miami of Ohio when I'm 20 miles down the road in a very different type of experience.
- [10:56]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [10:57]
Lee Ernst
And so there were several social service type experiences like that that I think, I think maybe unintentionally drew me to that work at Salvation Army. But I was fortunate to be raised where volunteering was a key priority. I had exposure to it. So it was really more connecting the dots.
- [11:17]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [11:17]
Lee Ernst
From a personal level to a professional level there.
- [11:21]
Okay, so let me help in connecting those dots. So, Ted, I want to ask you a question I don't normally ask, but I think it's really important. So you have kids and can you take me back to that moment? Because that's really informs. I know it has for me and for many people. I know it informs a lot of their life, their childhood does, but also when they have a child. Take us to that moment. What was that like?
- [11:52]
Ted Grossnickel
What was it like when, when Marsha and I had children?
- [11:57]
Lee Ernst
Yes.
- [12:00]
Ted Grossnickel
Best thing in our lives. That. That's an even better feeling than, than the prior addiction metaphor I was using. But pursuant to, to this conversation, one of the best things that has happened in my life is having one of our two children take up the work or adopt the work or be involved in the work that I'm in. And it, It's. It's been truly a blessing because not only do you get to see the work that you're doing through the eyes of another person, but in, In. In many ways, you learn your profession all over again. Because that person, if you've got a good relationship with a family member who's involved, they're able to tell you things that I don't think you would hear. Otherwise, there's probably more authenticity involved in the work. Have I been mysterious enough thus far, Jay, in answering your question?
- [13:23]
Lee Ernst
You have. So, Lee, can you help unravel the mystery, what we're talking about here?
- [13:27]
I think what Ted is trying to translate to Jay is that if Ted and I are working on a client together, which is really fun, right? As colleagues, as the CEO and the founder, Ted gets a permission slip. And it's usually something like this. It might be. And these aren't often, so take that with a grain of salt. But it might be something like, I get a text from Ted that says, you look tired, period, or excellent job, comma, kiddo. What that alludes to the fact is that, yes, as Ted and I related, as Ted is my dad, as I'm one of those children that he's talking about, we get to probably practice our JJ values deeper and more regularly than many of our colleagues or other firms. And it's by far one of my biggest joys working with. With my dad now being called tired again, Ted gets that permission slip, right? And he probably does it once a decade. So I should probably, you know, qualify that. Poor, you know, poor Ted's already getting thrown under the bus here. But, but, oh, man, oh, man, is it fun. How freeing is it to be completely yourself and to be completely authentic and to be able to do so because, you know, it's. It's a key part of your firm's values. That's a nice alignment, right? When that personal and professional align like that.
- [14:52]
I want to ask you about the values piece, not just in terms of JGA's values. That's very important. It's very important to your clients, and it's important to the field. But I don't know that values just arise out of thin air. I think a lot of firms do invent them, and I'm sure they try to observe them. But I suspect here what we're talking about is values that arose from the people and then they were implemented at the firm. Is that a fair assessment?
- [15:18]
Ted Grossnickel
So, yeah.
- [15:21]
Lee Ernst
What's the genesis of those values? Where they come from for you? Where take us way back.
- [15:25]
Ted Grossnickel
Yeah, I can start at least, at least in terms of the firm's values. When Don Johnson and I Co founded JGA in 1994, we knew each other. We had worked with each other for probably eight or nine years. Don is in retirement in Maine now. Hope he hears this conversation. But I had hired him as campaign counsel for me when I was a vice president at Franklin College. He came and helped the college at a critical moment. We had had fire disasters and needed a rebuilding campaign. He was an incredibly wise consultant and, and once that campaign was done, he and I continued to be very close and to do work together. And he and I joined our practice. We, we formed JJ in 1994. But we had long talks, Jay, before we co founded the firm. And those went to what are the things that he and I both have observed and in working with council, what had worked for us and what did not work. And so early, early on we, we became determined that whatever we were going to do, we were going to make sure that we would have a practice that was responsive to clients, that was absolutely authentic with them sometimes having to tell a client what they did not want to hear or found it difficult to hear and several other things. And those are values that, among others, are a big part of JGA today. I'm proud of the extent to which I think we've retained those. But to your question, they originated from what Don and I experienced as practitioners. He at places like MIT and the Cleveland Clinic and Tufts, me at Franklin and Northern Illinois University and observing what was really helpful when somebody who was giving us advice and what was not so helpful. So for me, the, the, I guess the one sentence response to your question would be out of personal lived experience. We saw some things that really worked and we tried to codify those as values.
- [18:01]
Lee Ernst
And in choosing to partner with somebody like that and founding the firm, I guess you have a chance, like you said, to work together as campaign counsel. And then you knew that it was a good business marriage, so to speak. When we have family, we do our best, especially with our kids, to instill values in them, but then they are their own people. So that's a different set of things as you navigate the growth and maturity of a firm. Lee, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how then you decided, you know what? I'm in it now. I'm this person, I have my own career. We haven't gone through the whole resume, but you had gone far beyond that initial job and you decided to make this place home again. And, and that wasn't just something you could do because you were family. This is something you had to earn the trust of the firm. But also you had to decide for yourself whether these values were your values. This firm represented who you are. I don't want to speak for you, but I have a sense that you must have gone through some kind of navigation there. Describe what that was like.
- [19:12]
I think there were several moments during my fundraising career when I was in Chicago primarily at the Salvation army and the University of Chicago, right really practicing my skills, right, Doing that fundraising gift officer work, learning campaigns, all, all of the things, right that fundraisers go through. And I think there were several moments that I made very intentional decisions about my career and the trajectory. So for example, I knew I wanted to go to graduate school. I knew I wanted to study non profit management, have it, have a deeper understanding of non profits and to have that formal education to complement my undergrad graduate. I mean I. Selling croissants in Ireland was a good start on, on, on getting the professional expertise needed for fundraising, but it wasn't quite there. I needed just a bit more. And so I, I very intentionally decided to stay in Chicago and to do my graduate work there. I think there's a unbelievably renowned school in our backyard of Indianapolis at Lily Family School of Philanthropy. It was too close to home. I needed to have space to create a career that was fully my space. So, so that was one decision, right making that the other was making the decision to be at UChicago. And I actually had been in, in conversation with a consulting firm or two in Chicago at the time to do, to do a bit of, of, of work there. And right around that time this was, let's see, like the early 2000 and tens or so. My husband, I started talking about what is this? We have a, a family, we have a growing family, one young child. And what does that mean for us? Where do we want to geography position ourselves? And look. And so actually the former CEO at the time of our firm and I had a conversation and she talked to me about joining the firm. And my real entry point, if you will, formal, any sort of formal conversation really had no through with with Ted. It was with our former CEO and Ted even has a funny story if you want to share that story. Ted but, but what it allowed was at the very beginning of my thoughts and relationship, formal relationship with jj To. To be on.
- [21:41]
Ted Grossnickel
The.
- [21:41]
Lee Ernst
The terms of meritocracy, not a familial connection. And that was a value set of mine.
- [21:47]
Unnamed Participant
Right?
- [21:47]
Lee Ernst
The firm deserves the very, very best of the team. And I needed to make sure that I was going to be in a firm that valued my skills and expertise and if there was any value because of my familial ties, and that probably wasn't the right firm for me. And so the former CEO had the conversations. He asked me to join. It was one of the biggest honors of my life because I'd known JJ from afar, but I didn't know what it was like to sit in that seat. So it really helped, I think, give me the freedom to come in and be my full self when I came to the firm, because I wasn't brought in for family ties. I was brought in for skill and expertise. And that was such a compliment. So my job was to really steward that.
- [22:33]
Unnamed Participant
Right?
- [22:33]
Lee Ernst
And to say, how can I do my very best? Because now I can't let the team down. Right now, eyes are watching me. So now I. Now, now I better bring my A game.
- [22:43]
Ted, you were going to say something right then?
- [22:46]
Ted Grossnickel
Yeah. I think. I think this is the moment to. To tell the story to which Lee alluded. Our former CEO and still good friend came to me after she had spoken with Lee. And Lee at that point was being very successful at the University of Chicago. And then ultimately she was hired by the Women's Philanthropy Institute at the Lilly School. It was really, really on quite a career trajectory. But Angela talked with Lee. And then Angela came into my office one day at jga. She closed the door, she sat down in the desk at the chair in front of my desk and said, ted, we need to talk. Well, that was pretty serious. I thought she was going to tell me the building was on fire or something. She had a very serious demeanor. And she said, I'd like to have us take a run at. At seeing if we could enter into talks with and hire Lee to join the practice. And my first response was, no, no, no, Angela, we can't do that. This is an esop. We're an employee stock ownership plan firm. This is, as Lee said, a meritocracy. And Angela heard me out, and then she said, well, I. I need to remind you that I've already spoken to some people here, and neither they nor I think that it's appropriate for Lee to be penalized because of who her father is. We think it would really be good to have that conversation with her. And while I had those first glimmers of pride in what Angela was telling me, we also had to agree that Lee was going to have a reasonably tough set of interviews coming into the firm. And as time went on and we had those talks, and once Lee was made an offer and did join the firm, Lee and I needed to think together about, as she had mentioned at the top of our conversation, Jay, what are some ground rules that would make this thing work?
- [25:26]
Lee Ernst
So, Lee, tell me about the ground rules.
- [25:30]
Well, let's start with the most important. No reference of the term kiddo in public. In all seriousness, we actually had several, and I think it served us really well. This is where you'll get to see if Ted agrees. But here were a few of them. One, when we are at home in a family setting, as Ted alluded, he has children. I have a brother who is a very successful baker. Very different type of career paths. We are not to be talking about work non stop at home, around the dinner table. Two, we call each other Ted and Lee. I call him Ted. I don't call him dad in. In a work setting in front of a client. Three, we adhere to our values probably times 10. So when we talked about being authentic, there are times where Ted has come to me and said, lee, I think you could have done better, or times where I went to Ted and said, I don't, I don't agree with that and I'm actually a little concerned. I think we need to have a conversation.
- [26:39]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [26:39]
Lee Ernst
So we committed to being fully authentic because we knew that if we didn't, it could get slippery. Three, Ted was never my boss. Our former CEO was. Ted wasn't dictating salary. And I think that's really important. That was a guardrail that I really appreciated having that. So those were a few things. And I think, you know, probably in the first few years, we would check periodically.
- [27:09]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [27:10]
Lee Ernst
How does it feel? How does it work? And I would do that with the firm and with leadership. Is there anything I need to know, anything to hear?
- [27:17]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [27:18]
Lee Ernst
Please let me. Is there anything I'm missing that was really important to me from a relationship? Does it, you know, but many of our clients either don't know or haven't known about a relationship until about six months or a year in plus, because we don't lead with it. Is it, is it fun to work together? Yes. But we're not in this work because of a familial connection. And we always want to make sure the client knows, you know, Our priorities. So I think those are some of the things. I don't know. Ted, if there's anything you would add.
- [27:47]
Ted Grossnickel
I know. I think you really did a good job of covering it. The. The only modest one that I would add is we. We, I think, make an effort to just not tell a lot of family stories when we're in our conversations with our teammates at jga. You know, if. If every once in a while, somebody will say, well, gee, you know, did. Did Ted, you and Marcia and Lee and Ben, the family go off on a vacation together? Sure. But. But it. It's not an everyday topic.
- [28:23]
Lee Ernst
So it's been clear from the inside, I guess, all along, because you established those values and those guardrails less so on the outside. Why was it important to make sure that you had that professional distinction and you were always just representing yourselves in the firm? And that familial connection isn't something that was revealed at all until later. What was the root of that?
- [28:51]
I'll share my insights. I came into the firm in my early 30s, and I had. I was proud. I'd worked hard for my. The career. It had thus far.
- [29:00]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [29:00]
Lee Ernst
And I was still very much learning. I'm still learning every day.
- [29:03]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [29:03]
Lee Ernst
I. I hope so. Or else I'm in the wrong position.
- [29:06]
Unnamed Participant
But.
- [29:07]
Lee Ernst
But it was important to me that I was able to lead with my experience and skill set and to be open, being able to ask questions. I didn't want anyone to walk. You know, everyone makes assumptions of everyone anyway.
- [29:21]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [29:21]
Lee Ernst
It's human nature. It's how we're wired. I think, to some degree, I didn't want either that burden on people to be anything less than authentic with me if they knew a connection, whether positive or negative. But also because I didn't join the firm because of Ted. I joined the firm out of my deep respect for the firm, for the team. Ted was instrumental in starting that.
- [29:46]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [29:46]
Lee Ernst
And I guess that it's the greatest joy of my life.
- [29:49]
Unnamed Participant
But.
- [29:50]
Lee Ernst
But I saw in the firm something larger than my family. And so if I would have led with family, I think it would have been disgenuous. And I think it muddies the water, you know, when. When a client. When we're lucky enough to be hired by a client, they're not hiring us for our family connection.
- [30:03]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [30:04]
Lee Ernst
Because the belief that we can be good partners. So I also wanted to lead with what was client focused and forward. What's a client? You know, what's important to the client? Let's focus on that, because that's why we're here at the end of the day as a professional services firm.
- [30:17]
Right, right. You know.
- [30:19]
Ted Grossnickel
Yeah. And I think to add to that, that last point, it's really, at least for me, the central one, what the client needs is, is, is what comes first. And it's interesting when at least my perception, see if Lee would agree, is that once a client hears that, oh yeah, you guys are related, it's, there's a moment of OR two where you know, they say, hey, that's really neat or that's fun, or we didn't know or they'll say a joke or something and then, you know what, within two minutes we're back at work. So becomes not a big deal to them if we don't make it a big deal. Because it's not. I, I think, you know, that's just a sort of a good check on our own thinking that if we're really focused on the work with the client and what they're trying to accomplish.
- [31:16]
Lee Ernst
What.
- [31:16]
Ted Grossnickel
Their challenges are and what their opportunities are, that's where everybody's brains ought to be.
- [31:24]
Lee Ernst
One of the reasons I'm asking these questions, not only because it's interesting to see how family works together, which is interesting, is because it's so rare. And a lot of families, they either aren't in the same line of business or it is a familial connection that causes them to decide to work together. You know, whether it's the corner store or, or even some consultancies that have been in our field. But you've made very intentional decisions individually and as a firm to do this differently. And it sounds like they're all driven again by your personal and business values. That leads me to a really simplistic question, but I think it's important, which is why are those kinds of values important? Especially in the 21st century when it seems like it's all about the grind, making sure we get the business and bring in the business for our clients and raise them money. Why values first. And which values are so critical? Now.
- [32:23]
I'll start with this. It makes life so much darn easier when you have clear values, as we all know, right? Running a firm, engaging with clients, whatever our industry is, or specific work in the field, it can be hard at times when something goes sideways and non profit is grappling with an unknown. All of the things that as humans cause us stress, right. When you have clear values, it's your guardrails. It's a reminder of why you're here. And quite frankly, to not recreate the playbook every time. These are the values in which we have to enact. And it allows you to focus back on the most important thing, not the thing that's causing the stress or the emotional element. Why are we here and how do we do good work? And the values, at least for me, really help bring that back. If there is a really hard comment that needs to be shared with the president of an institution and then it happens, right, About a board member, a vice president, donor, whatever it may be in the back of my mind somewhere sometimes it's really deep back.
- [33:39]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [33:39]
Lee Ernst
It's super dusty. And I'm still trying to, you know, do memory recall on it at times. If the day's been long, I'll have some sort of nagging thought of Lee. Be honest. You say it to your clients and you say it to your team members. What's the right thing to do? And so it's a little bit of a gu, right. It gives you that guidance. And so I think that's incredibly important because again, it actually, it's relieving. And for me, it's authenticity and innovation. There is so much opportunity and excitement and change in our sector in our country. Innovation is the other critical part of values that allow us to do our best work. So those are the two values for me that I really hinge a lot of my thinking and behavior around.
- [34:31]
Ted Grossnickel
Yeah, I want to, I want to build on something you said. I don't know if it's a segue or not, but you know, Jay Lee mentioned innovation and, and that's, that's a core value for us, something we've always, you know, been pretty quick to adopt new technology and now I think JJ is actually leading in important ways and the use of predictive analytics in the firm and so forth. And that really goes to Lee and her leadership at the firm. But, but it's another reason to your question why having the values are so important. Because there are times in today's very fast moving world where innovation can sometimes make you feel like you're living and working in the wild West. You're wondering about what are the rules for the use of AI. For example, having a pretty core, clear set of values is doubly important. When the speed of change has accelerated and when there are so many evidences of, of the breakdowns of traditional connections or connective tissue between people. Having, having a firm set of values helps you, I think, have less stress and it probably helps you get to the right place, as Lee said. Okay, here's what JJ's values are on. On, on this. Are we going to be authentic about it, for example? And I can tell you that years ago, we, we were one of the early sponsors on, you know, the AI Framework for Ethics and Values. That's a good example.
- [36:33]
Lee Ernst
And there are always things like that coming along. And I know you're working on them because you have that framework within the firm. You're clearly bringing that to your clients. I'd like you to help us zoom out a little bit, because you're not just in this for the business, right? I mean, the two of you have chosen this as a professional life, and then JGA is a vehicle through which you exercise that work very successfully. The field itself, however, is broad and it's always changing. And you just alluded to that with innovation. Where are values in that? And do we need a discussion of these issues more broadly about values, for example, or maybe other things we haven't talked about yet today to help guide the field as it tries to navigate these things? And by the field, I mean everybody in it, the philanthropists, the academics, the journalists, the donors, and then of course, the organizations and the council for those organizations. Do they have a framework or a set of guidelines or a set of values that is going to help them in the next 18, 24 months, or maybe even more importantly, the next 20, 30 years, when AI will be in everything?
- [37:50]
Ted Grossnickel
Yes.
- [37:53]
Lee Ernst
So what does that look like?
- [37:56]
Ted Grossnickel
Wow. I'll see if Lee, if you would agree. I think in some ways, though, there have been the very good and formal framework efforts regarding, for example, use of AI. It is also getting tested every day and the applications of, and opportunities for use of AI in our case and predictive analytics and elsewhere cause you to have to look at, learn quickly and absorb a lot of lessons early on and how they are principally applied to the work you're doing every day. So I actually think that values. It sounds like a cliche, but it happens to be true. They're even more important than they might have been 10 or 20 years ago because of the speed at which technological progress is occurring and the fragmentation of a lot of the traditional connection points between people and organizations. Lee, does that, does that sound right to you?
- [39:24]
Lee Ernst
It does. I think it absolutely resonates, I think, about two big things going on.
- [39:29]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [39:30]
Lee Ernst
I think generally or broadly speaking, society's desire for connection, I think it's illuminated now more than ever, particularly out of the pandemic. But I think our field of fundraising, it's, it's, it's on Connection.
- [39:45]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [39:45]
Lee Ernst
It's all built on connection and relationship. It's the foundation from which all of the work is born. But I think about that going on in society, and I think about the use of data.
- [39:55]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [39:55]
Lee Ernst
We, we are constantly hearing about a new technological advance. We're constantly hearing about the use of data, the, the way in which AI is being used, whether it's generative or predictive. My sense is that when there is new or unknown, that can be worrisome to people. Having some sort of framework values. A little bit to my example earlier, I think can help bring kind of peace or calm or clarity around those issues that are changing so fast and rapidly, you know, in these times now and in the future. I think it's interesting to think ahead to the next few years, what that looks like. And I. My hope at least, is that our sector, the nonprofit sector, continues to be really thoughtful with things like the Generosity Commission, with things like fundraising AI and other ways to help try to bring some sort of either value set or deeper understanding for the sector. So I'm not sure how clear that is, but I think there's a lot coming down the pipe that the more we can kind of come together and either have those conversations, it. It allows us to be better partners in our work with each other, then.
- [41:17]
What, what, what do we need to be doing more of in the field?
- [41:20]
I think about efforts like the generosity commissions, right where there was. And Ted can speak on this much more, but a real examination of giving in America.
- [41:30]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [41:30]
Lee Ernst
To try to understand motivations of giving behind Americans, to try to understand how to increase philanthropy. The more knowledge, the more data we have on that, I think we become better informed, whether it's. It's practitioners, it's fundraisers or consultants or donors. When I think about the use of data, the more we can understand the ethical ways to use AI, the responsible ways to use AI. Those type of efforts, I think make us better in our work.
- [42:04]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [42:05]
Lee Ernst
Because we understand more deeply how to engage with one another and how to use so many of these technological advances that we have at the forefront now.
- [42:15]
Ted Grossnickel
Yeah, I find it interesting that in the last five to seven years, you've had this, this broad sector convening around the fundraising AI and creating ethical guidelines. You had the generosity commission get planned and take place. Both of those were reasonably large efforts that required a whole bunch of people that didn't know each other very well to come together, talk about their common work, and, and I think come up with some pretty good results. If you look 10 or 15 years back, I'm not sure that kind of convening was happening. It's interesting to me that at a time of sort of maximum pressure on our society, with the pandemic, with, with the economic jolts and other things, that in fact the response of a number of people in the field was let's get together, share ideas and think about our future. So you can take some hope from that. But as we think about what the next five or 10 years are going to require, I think the convening has to continue. I think as we go forward, we should be hyper alert to ways of looking for the best minds to come together and to say, how do we solve problems together? It has to be collaborative. We better lean into that because as I said, the traditional bonds, I think have gotten frayed.
- [43:55]
Lee Ernst
Right. I've got to ask you both, what is the hardest part of all this been for you two individually? I mean, working together, navigating these kinds of issues in the broader field, which I'm sure are impacting your clients. I know you're helping them with you, you're helping them with it, but, but they are impacting you personally as well. So what's the hardest part of all this for each of you?
- [44:26]
Ted Grossnickel
I'm thinking.
- [44:28]
Lee Ernst
I can hear it. I'm kidding. I, I, you know, j. Right now, moment of time and ask me in a year, I bet it'll be different. But here's where I am now. The hardest thing for me personally right now is trying to do the very best I can at home and at work. It's that old cliche, right? It's not the balance. You, you win some days at work and you win some days at home. But I have a 15 and a 13 year old and it, it's unbelievably joyful even. Yes. With a 15 year old, 13 year old. I mean that to get to be their mom. And now I get to lead the firm of jga. How lucky am I? I am still. That's the biggest thing I'm working on. How do I show up really well, knowing that one day is going to be better than the other? I sure don't have the answer, but it's something I'm constantly thinking about and constantly trying to listen and learn from others. And it's, I spend a lot of time thinking about it because it's, I need to show up well for my clients. They deserve the very best. I need to show up for my family. They deserve the best.
- [45:50]
Unnamed Participant
Right.
- [45:50]
Lee Ernst
So it's, I'm doing A little bit of thinking aloud with you, but that's where my head is right now on what's the hardest thing.
- [45:57]
And then maybe before you address that, Ted, then what's the most joyful? What's. What's the part that, you know, keeps you smiling like you always do, But I'm sure you're still making the effort.
- [46:06]
Because that's a lot of work.
- [46:07]
Being a mom and a CEO.
- [46:09]
There is, but, my gosh, the. Our team at jj, it's the heart of our firm. I get to work with unbelievably talented people. I did something decent in my life to be able to work with such smart, talented professionals. That means I got to bring my A game, too, because if they're showing up, so darn well, that means I have to show up. So the team is inspiring. And the opportunities to engage with our clients, to innovate with another data product, thinking about Personas, there's so many opportunities to innovate and to create, to serve our sector well, that excites me. That gives me energy and joy for days, and it actually makes a really long, hard day quite easy. And this is the familial part. I get to have a hard day and pick up the phone and say, hey, Ted, you have five minutes.
- [46:56]
Unnamed Participant
Right?
- [46:56]
Lee Ernst
And you take it. Excel, you exhale and. And you get to just talk and commiserate and share with. With no judgment. That's a really nice safety valve. More than that, it's a blessing. My gosh, that's nice.
- [47:15]
Ted. How about for you?
- [47:17]
Ted Grossnickel
I think the thing that I've thought about the most in least recent weeks in some ways was captured by a piece I read. I think it was written by Maureen Dowd. I don't know. But the. The idea that was expressed is that in an era when so many people are very strongly held but different political stripes, you know, imagine siblings or cousins or whatever, and some of them are on one side and some on the other, and there seems a vast gulf of understanding between them. And the piece that I read said, you know, you're probably not going to change people's minds with your best arguments. What you're probably best recommended to do is to find out about the things that you share a love for, whether it's a hobby or a family member or baseball or what you. You find the things that are links, and you emphasize those. And maybe over time, it'll make you and the person with whom you disagree say, okay, okay, we disagree, but we share a whole bunch of other things that we think are important. We're both human beings. Let's just agree to disagree. I think that's what I'm hoping America is going to get better at. I think we have to get better at giving ourselves some slack. I think things happen more in the middle where people are agreeing. I don't have many answers there, Jay. That's what I'm thinking about. And, and to the good. The, the other part, the second question you asked, one of the real.
- [49:08]
Lee Ernst
One.
- [49:08]
Ted Grossnickel
Of the places where that happens is, is JJ because we share this common work and I think everybody there loves it and we get to, we get to do it in a place where we have the values. I don't want to sound too highly philosophical, but probably the same answer as Lee that, that, that work with a really, really fine team at JGA is the touchstone.
- [49:45]
Lee Ernst
Thank you both for all of this. I really appreciate it. I guess the only question I might ask last is what is this obsession with bread? Because apparently your, your son, your brother, is a baker. You have mentioned croissants at least twice when we started this program. What is that all about?
- [50:03]
Jay, when your family member finishes work at noon and has a box of freshly baked goodies of whatever assortment they are, half of them I can barely pronounce on your table at home when you get home from work, it, I guess it just seeps into your brain. I don't know. I mean, I, I know how to help institutions raise money. If only I can make bread right. Maybe I've missed my calling.
- [50:37]
It's all about the bread, one way.
- [50:38]
Or another, and I'm actually pretty intolerant to it.
- [50:45]
Well, if it's too much for you, just pass them along to me anytime.
- [50:50]
I'll have them shipped from Indianapolis. I know where you live.
- [50:57]
Thank you both so much. Really appreciate it.
- [50:59]
Thank you, Jay. It's always a pleasure to be with you.
- [51:02]
Ted Grossnickel
Thank you, Jay. Enjoyed the talk.
- [51:05]
Jay Frost
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM podcast. You can learn more about JG Lee and Ted at jgacouncil.com for more information on the Giving Institute, visit givinginstitute.org Details on the Generosity Commission are available at thegenerositycommission.org Our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the global leader in AI powered fundraising intelligence solutions for the nonprofit sector. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you'd like to listen, check out our sister shows front lines of social good and how to raise. And come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader or leaders in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.