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- [00:00]
Rebecca Van Bergen
Them being old enough now to participate in the organization. We bring them on our staff retreats. They're like our mascots. They, you know, they travel with us. They really are old enough now that they can understand the mission of what we're trying to do and see to be able to raise kids to understand that they need to be playing a role in the society we want to create and that that's what their parents do. It has been so meaningful. So I think we're loving this stage where they're old enough to be a part of it.
- [00:30]
Jay Frost
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. Rebecca Van Bergen and Chris Van Bergen are the visionary leaders behind Nest, a non profit advancing gender equity and economic inclusion in the global artisan and maker economy. As founder and Executive Director, Rebecca launched Nest in 2006 at just 24, building partnerships with brands like Etsy and Patagonia to support over 250,000 artisans across 120 countries and pioneering global standards for home based work. Chris, Nest's chief financial and operating officer since 2011, has helped guide the organization through rapid growth, leading ethical compliance efforts and expanding programs that serve thousands of small businesses businesses worldwide. Together, they've redefined the role of handmade craft in the global economy, empowering communities, promoting transparency and shaping a more equitable future for workers everywhere. In this conversation, we talk about their journey together as partners in life and work, their challenges and joys and what they imagine for the future.
- [01:48]
Interviewer
Let's begin by finding out how the two of you came together. That's not the biggest part of your story, but it is a part of your story. You work together, you, you, you're married. This is a big part of your life. How did you meet?
- [02:04]
Rebecca Van Bergen
Gonna kick off or I can. I started Nest. We're turning 20 next year. The organization that we run which is. Feels crazy and we. I was about five years into running Nest and was living in Washington D.C. and but I'm from St. Missouri and got my master's degree in social work at Washington University here in the city where we are. We're back in St. Louis now and they actually gave me seed capital to start and then I eventually moved to the east coast but we actually met through a mutual friend from St. Louis and Chris was playing and working for an orchestra at the time and, and we. But our shared passions for kind of fundraising and craft and culture really kind of started. Started the conversation. We definitely started our romantic relationship before he jumped over to the NEST bandwagon. But the kind of seeds of shared interest were there from the beginning.
- [03:02]
Interviewer
Right. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes the love finds itself at the office, but it's. It's nice to. It works the other way around, too. You said as a musician, Chris, you were working as a working musician at that point, is that right?
- [03:14]
Chris Van Bergen
I was, yeah. That's. That's what I thought I was going to do for my full career. That's, you know, from a very early age, I really was passionate about classical music. I was a classical trumpet player. Went to school for that, pursued that career for better part of a decade. Was primarily on the East Coast. I did spend some time here in St. Louis, which is how I met this mutual friend of ours. But had that moment where I was. Things were going well. I was playing with all sorts of amazing ensembles and orchestras and doing the hustle, doing the freelance musician life, and should have been super happy and satisfied and found myself not being that way, which was kind of this light bulb moment, looking in the mirror, like, ooh, I'm doing everything I want to do, and this doesn't feel like it should to me. And knowing that there's so many musicians out there who are so passionate about the work, and it felt like I needed to be pursuing something else. It just started kind of eating away at me, which was a little scary at first because obviously that was my. My life plan was to do this. This thing, and I was doing it, and it just wasn't what. What I thought it would be. And so I started working on the administrative side of the orchestra while I was still playing and was kind of had my feet in both worlds. And that's when I met Rebecca and heard what she was doing, and something clicked for me there. And at the time, I didn't know we would get together, and I didn't know I'd be working at nest for 15 years. But I did understand that what Rebecca was doing at NEST was having such a direct, intangible impact on the stakeholders that NEST was serving. Oh, I think that's what's missing for me. It's that I was playing these concerts and they were amazing, and I was playing with unbelievable musicians and conductors and orchestras and playing the most beautiful music. But I was missing that feeling of tangible impact. And that's what really intrigued me about the work of NEST and Rebecca and her kind of passion for it and being the founder of this organization. Oh, that's really, really interesting. And that's really how we. How we kind of connected up front. And from there, my career went in a completely different direction. Right. I mean, I've been doing this for, again, the last 15 years. Pretty sure my parents thought I was going insane when I said I was no longer going to be in music. But they've come around since then. But yeah, it's been quite a. Quite a journey.
- [05:29]
Interviewer
I'm imagining, I'm trying to imagine, Rebecca, what it was like for you as you were thinking about a person in this totally different world. And I know romance is one thing, but. But this kind of. The life of building a company is quite another. Right? I mean, so I do want to ask about that, but can you take us back to the origin of the company itself? I mean, where were you in your life besides St. Louis, physically? Where were you in your life that you decided you needed to form this thing? What was the genesis of that?
- [05:57]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I had just gotten my master's degree in social work, and at the time, Muhammad Yunus won the Nobel Peace Prize for microfinance. And if you, you know, I just said we were turning 20. If you go back 20 years, that was really the beginning of the conversation around social business. And so at the time, it sparked a lot of conversations around the intersection of for profit and nonprofit ventures and what kind of doing good in a kind of for profit model might look like. And lots of organizations started thinking about ideas like microfinance and. But I had just gotten my degree in social work. And from that lens, the idea of, you know, in our country, if you start a business and take out a loan, that's debt, that's not necessarily like the key to success. And so it seemed a little problematic to scale that without kind of more holistic supportive services for women. And so that was. That was the origin. I had the. I just had a vision for creating a model that was more about holistic support. So market building, business education. It could include financing, but not necessarily. And create kind of a stronger model for supporting women in business development and really looking globally. Craft has always been a cornerstone of employment for women around the world. And so really felt like that was the sector I wanted to invest in. I like to share that Etsy was actually founded the same. Right. Right before NAS the. Just a few months before, the year before. And so it was, you know, very early in the days of handmade or art, artisan being kind of something in the consumer ethos. And so it's been an exciting journey to see how quickly it's caught on and how you know how much interest there is in. In the handmade.
- [07:34]
Interviewer
Yeah. Well, for those who have never seen the website, have never heard the organization before, can you describe briefly kind of the mission and vision and the services, like you know, what it is?
- [07:45]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I mean it's nice to know that like from that original vision, not what, that's still very true to what our core mission is today. But so we support artisan and creative entrepreneurs and makers in the US and globally. The kind of foundation of our work is what we call our Artisan Guild, which is a global network of artisan enterprises. You could be a woman making pottery in your garage in Detroit, Michigan, or you could be a cooperative of women sewing baskets in Senegal and join the network. So it's a really broad and diverse group of people, but all really centered around craft being the primary driver of their business. And we run an elearning platform called Nest Connect that any member of the guild can join and then run kind of more in depth application based programs that makers within that community can apply for, from kind of business accelerators to financing. And that's kind of the, the, the crux of it. We, we sit at the intersection of kind of philanthropy and industry. So we are a nonpro, raise money to run the programs that we do, but also work really closely with brands and retailers from Etsy to Hermes. So a wide array to build and run programs that support either us makers or global artisans or both.
- [08:55]
Interviewer
I'm trying to imagine 20 years ago what that conversation was like. There's one part of it that's about finance. You know, you needed the money and you just mentioned seed capital a few minutes ago. So be interesting to ask about that. But also it's a conversation where I don't know how many people were familiar with it. So you just mentioned Muhammad Yunus. And at that time that was, you know, again, to many people, quite new. That model. Probably the thing that most people would have seen would have been, I don't know, save the children's craft items in their, in their store and catalog or a body shop. There weren't a lot of examples. Like you just said, Etsy was formed the same year. So when you were telling other people about this and you said this is what it is, what was your kind of their 32nd, I hate this phrase elevator speech, but what was your kind of condensed version for people who had no idea what you were talking about to help them understand not only its importance, but how it was possible.
- [09:51]
Rebecca Van Bergen
It was very hard in the early, early days, I think craft, I mean, kind of there was just so little and the fair trade movement was very nascent. And you know, so you mentioned it and people like, kind of pictured like, I don't know, kitschy things they would pick up on their travels or holiday ornaments or, you know, very specific things. And that's changed over time. But I think from even, even still to this day, craft has always been sort of seen as kind of women's work or niche or non scalable. And it really has lacked the same level of investment as other sectors. Like you look at small business programs and they really focus on tech and healthcare and food and beverage and many other industries. Craft is rarely at the top of the list. And so a big piece of our mission has been historically and still today to really help change that narrative that it's a major driver of employment for women in the US and around the world and a really needed form of employment. And then I think you add in technology and AI and robotics and all of that to the conversation and its importance just grows. I think people really crave an anecdote to how technologically advanced our society is becoming. And so it's been interesting to see that like, as that has risen, the demand for handcraft has risen in vast per parallel because I think it's sort of like the pendulum swing. So it's gotten easier over 20 years, but still hard because I think there are misperceptions about its ability to grow and scale.
- [11:16]
Interviewer
Yeah, that was the question I wanted to ask you next about scaling. But I suppose that that's something that both of you understood from life even before Nest. So Chris, when you're talking about life as a musician, I don't know if you were mainly playing as a soloist or if you were playing as an ensemble player or both, because there are different worlds there. But one of the difficulties in the world of music, as in the world of business and especially social business, is a matter of scale. Finding an audience, retaining that audience, getting a new audience too, because that's a graying audience for music, unfortunately, but then being able to bring it to more and more people. So I'm curious, when you first heard about this idea, what did it. How did it resonate for you?
- [12:04]
Chris Van Bergen
Yeah, great, great question. Was really interesting to me to. To think about the fact that. And maybe we should also explain that obviously Ness has gone through many iterations during those 20 years, which has been a very, very interesting journey kind of following. I think the movement of the market. And one thing that we've been very fortunate about is being very nimble and being very receptive to both the needs of the stakeholders as well as the needs of the market and kind of putting those two things together. And so the initial idea with NEST I found very intriguing because Rebecca was working with women's based cooperatives in emerging economies who generally did not have a market here in the United States. I mean, they were just, they were not just, but they were producing their goods in their home countries. If they're lucky, a tourist comes by and buys it. Right. And this idea of bringing those to market here in the United States to expose a greater number of people who may not have the good fortune to travel to those places, I found very interesting. So it was, it was creating these new pipelines for market access for these cooperatives and, and then from the purchase of those sales, our very early model was essentially a trunk show model. Purchasing the product, the proceeds of those products would then drive business development programming to the cooperatives and help them improve their business infrastructure and acumen and all, all the things that they need to really continue to grow their, their opportunity at home. And I found that very intriguing. And then from there, Rebecca had already, I think when we met, Rebecca had already started forming relationships with brand partners to realize it's. It's great to direct. Direct to consumer is. Is great, but it's. That's hard to scale because you're just trying to pick off one consumer after another and grow from there. It takes a very, very long time. You need, you need to set up your own infrastructure in that way. But if you partner with a brand that already has an audience, you can drive scale quicker. And so the model then shifted from solely direct to consumer to these brand partnerships in addition to the direct to consumer model. Still essentially a. I don't want to say NEST acted as an agent because. Because really didn't. But using the proceeds of the, the purchase orders to then drive forward impact for the communities that made the products so kind of an improvement. So there was already a scale there, a scale play there. But we as an organization, and this is kind of when I started to get involved in terms of helping Rebecca run the business, realized that there was still a limit to that scale in terms of just being that center point of the transaction between the brand or consumer and the amazing artisans on the ground who were producing the product. We were almost acting as a constraint for the market because the transactions essentially had to flow through Nest for the communities that serve that made the products. So we started thinking about, okay, this model is good, but what can we do? How can we create increased market access opportunities? Because to your point, it is about scale, right? It's one thing to create the business education programs and connect communities to experts that can help them with marketing or branding or whatever it is that they need help with. But if, if the market access piece doesn't quickly follow that, it's almost like, what's the point? It's training for training's sake, as opposed to actually building up the business opportunity and driving forward more economic growth opportunities for these amazing women. And so we started shifting our model a bit. And instead of us being that kind of choke point between a brand and the artisan, the brand was never interfacing directly with that artisan business. They had to interface through Nest. Well, why, why do we have to do that? Let's completely break this model. Which model is a very common one for nonprofits in the craft space where it's, you're dealing with the, the non profit entity who is then dealing with the artisan business. The brand never really gets there. And so we said, well, let's, let's, let's think about this, this business differently. And as we're, that's essentially how we morphed into the model we have now, which is leveraging two things. One, philanthropy, whether it's corporate philanthropy from those brand partners or foundations or individuals who support the work to drive forward all those amazing programs that Rebecca talked about, or also act as fee for service consultants essentially for those brand partners, if they're looking to source product. How can we connect them to the right businesses and connect them directly? And so those businesses then are the ones that are navigating those purchase orders. We will be there as a spirit guide or marriage counselor for both sides, depending on how things are going. Right. But we are not going to be the ones who are saying we're not going to set the price of the product. We're not going to take a percentage of those sales because we don't want to price the artisans out of the market. We want to make sure both sides can actually interface directly. And so then that led to all sorts of other amazing things as far as programming that we had to develop to make sure that the artists and businesses could do that successfully. So what, you know, what training and what support do they need to be able to spread their wings and fly completely on their own? Not to use a Nest analogy, but I guess I just did. And so we built all sorts of Programming frameworks for them to be able to do that. And it for, for Nest, it opened up this whole new avenue of interesting revenue possibilities. So it's more fee for service. So we have a split model where in any given year it fluctuates a little bit, but maybe 60, 70% is philanthropy like a traditional non profit, and the rest are these fee for service contracts, whether it's sourcing consultancies, which is kind of the arrangement I just discussed, or a big piece of what we do is also supply chain transparency work. So we built out a whole compliance program because the brands wanted to source the product. Some of them were really hesitant to do so and we asked them why. Now you see the artisan business, you see the product, you love the product, why don't you want to, why don't you want to actually buy the product? Very simple answer to that question was the brand said there's too much risk. We don't know how much people are being paid. We don't know, my gosh, are there children making the product? All those very important questions that responsible brands ask, you can generally get that answer relatively easily from the factory. But our supply chain and the space we operate is 90% in homes and very small workshops that nobody had ever asked these questions before, like, oh my gosh, big light bulb moment for us. If that solution isn't there, why don't we build it? So we did. And so that's a big piece of what we do as well for our brand partners. Making sure not only can they find the right sourcing partner who can deliver the quantities and the price points and all sorts of things that you need when you're trying to put something on a shelf. But how do they do that responsibly? How do they make sure that those amazing workers are getting paid well, they are treated fairly, are in safe environments, are not children, you know, all the, all the things that they, they really need to know and their consumers are expecting when they buy those products. So it's really, that's. You asked. It was a very long winded way of answering your question about scale. But it's happened over time. I mean we, we, we started in that, essentially a trunk show model. We, we built that bigger because we wanted it to scale through these brand partnerships. We still were seeing a ceiling in terms of our ability to impact change across this sector. So let's change the model and let's create something where hundreds of brands can be working with us at any given time. Thousands of artists and businesses are working with us at any given time so that we can increase that, leveraging these market forces to do so. So that's my answer to your scale question.
- [19:23]
Interviewer
No, thank you. It's helpful to hear that whole evolution. I'm curious about the very, very, very beginning in, though, Rebecca, can you. Do you remember the first. I don't know if you call them clients. The very first supplier. That also sounds cold. The first woman or group of women that you worked with and how did you find them? How did they find you? And what was that like?
- [19:47]
Rebecca Van Bergen
Yeah, in the very early days, the I. Well, we found artisans a few ways, but the primary way was that I actually very early on formed a relationship with the Peace Corps, that they send Peace Corps volunteers into communities to do volunteer projects, often around livelihood development, very often around craft. And the volunteers, the Peace Corps gives them a little bit to work with, but not a lot. And so they kind of build their own projects in ways they want to support and work within the community. And so it was a really nice match where I needed people to help me find artisans and makers globally and be on the ground. And they needed things to do. And so we found a. We formed a partnership. And the Peace Corps allowed me to kind of share information about NASTA and what I was hoping to do with volunteers as they were heading into countries. And so we started two programs out of the gate. One is it was in Togo, West Africa, and the other was in Morocco. Interestingly, the second Peace Corps volunteer in Togo, West Africa, from our first year of operation is now our chief supply chain officer. So has been at NEST since the Peace Corps, which has been an amazing journey. But that was. That was our kind of first. Our first round. But then when you were kind of providing access and support to artisans and not charging them for. Kind of word gets around. So it also kind of spread through word of mouth as well.
- [21:08]
Interviewer
Have you maintained contact with the first artisans that you went like, the first artisan that you worked with?
- [21:13]
Rebecca Van Bergen
Yeah, especially since that woman from the Peace Corps ended up joining our team and is still on our team today. She has been able to, like, keep us in connection with the women we were working with in Togo and in Morocco as well. They're members of our NEST Artisan guild that I was talking about. So one of the things that felt really important to me was that while you're. You might in, you know, be a part of an intensive business accelerator and then that program ends, that you always are a part of this community where you can get ongoing access. So that a Relationship just doesn't come to like a quick halt. There's always kind of a way to be tapping into additional resources as kind of an alumni of our more intensive programs. And then you know what, I was kind of mentioning that the sector has really been seen as niche or non scalable. Having this global community really helps people see that this is, you know, we have a footprint in 123 countries. Craft exists everywhere. It is an employer around the world. And so having that kind of larger community helps us make some kind of data informed programming decisions, but also helps speaks to the scale and the need.
- [22:20]
Interviewer
Yeah. You know, I'm curious what the effect has been for, for those, for those women, especially those who have been there with you this whole time. Can you paint a picture of maybe a couple of those women, what it was like for them before and then after this relationship started with Nest.
- [22:38]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I mean, one of our more recent projects, we work in a community in Alabama called Gee's Bend, which is, it's actually called Gee's Bend. Cause it's like on a bend of the Alabama river, but it's a small community. It was actually the Pettaway Plantation. After emancipation, the slaves that were working that land stayed. And so actually a majority of the community actually still carries the surname Petaway. And they make these just incredibly beautiful, very modern looking quilts and have a legacy of doing so. In the 70s, some art collectors found them and they ended up in some galleries and museums and this community gained some notoriety. They're called the Gee's Bend Quilters. But when we got involved about six years ago, they still were only selling to people who came into the community. That was it. So if you, if you found your way in between Selma and Birmingham and you managed to meet a quilter on the road in Juice Bend, Alabama, you could maybe negotiate a quilt sale. But they were not selling through stores or on E Commerce, despite having a postage stamp and you know, Michelle Obama's official portrait kind of likens a G's Bend quilt. And. And so we actually formed a partnership with Etsy and helped the quilters form their first online retail shops. Etsy waived their fees and we helped invest in professional photography. And it's been super exciting to see. And that kind of led to some additional brand collaborations with Target and Crate and Barrel. And we just launched a program with Adidas. And to date that community has earned over $1 million in direct sales back into the community. And before our arrival, the average annual income was $13,000 a year in that community. And so to be able to transition having this talent but not having an outlet to crossing that digital divide to real significant income coming in from the beauty of their work is just so powerful. And so there's, there's so many stories like that. They're a powerful one, but there are many others. But you know, the, the talent is so rich that, you know, all it kind of takes sometimes is those unlocks for people to find it and be able to invest in it.
- [24:40]
Interviewer
Right, right. You know, as you're both talking about these things, it also strikes me that when a company, like a relationship goes through this evolution over a period of years, you know, 15 to 20 years, depending upon what we're talking about, that the evolution isn't always smooth because we don't necessarily know what we're going to be doing next. We're just trying to make it all work and we're enjoying it most of the time. But it, but it does mean that there are challenges along the way. So one of those challenges must be letting go of some of the original components. I mean, this was Rebecca in your case, this was your baby, and Chris I guess in your case. It sounds like the mode you found together is to find this kind of evolution together. How is this going to scale? If I'm right in that? What was it like to first decide that it was okay to not always be the intermediary, to not be the parent who walks the child to school? Let's start there because that's, that's probably what it was when you were first working with those, those women down there in the, you know, in Petaway. So what was it like to, to say, okay, we're, we're going to, we're going to, in order to scale and to serve more, we're going to let go a little bit?
- [25:54]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I think, you know, I'm a trained social worker and while I'm not doing any direct practice social work, I feel like the, the tenets of social work are very strong in the organization. And one of those is active listening and participant voice. And so it's always been really important to us that when we're building programs, we might bring, you know, 20 years of having done programs. So we have some sense of what's going to work and not work and some creativity around it. But it's really important that every program we're ever running is, is really steeped and co created by the community that will be benefiting. And because of that, our programs never stand still. We. One of our core values as an organization is Actually iteration and we try to normal that our programs should never stay the same if they, if, if they are, we're not listening to the people that we're doing the programs with because they should adapt and change to the needs of the community. And so really push our programming implementing teams to constantly think about hearing and adapting and changing what we're doing to meet need. And you know, the last several years, from COVID to climate change to, you know, global political upheaval, like there's just been a lot of change. And so it's felt more important than ever that we're really kind of continually thinking about the growth and expansion and adaptation of the programs that we're running.
- [27:13]
Interviewer
Yeah. And Chris, I don't know if you want to speak to that or maybe just add some color to it in terms of your particular role because you came in after Rebecca had already been doing this for several years. So what are your thoughts on that?
- [27:29]
Chris Van Bergen
Yeah, I smiled when Rebecca was talking because Rebecca and I have, have different functions in the organization, but we also, we're hardwired differently. Right. And Rebecca is incredibly entrepreneurial, always has been. She's genetically hardwired that way. Always thinking about how to improve, how to change, how to better meet the needs of our stakeholders, how to be more responsive and receptive and works. Her mind is always four steps ahead, which is amazing. I marvel at it. Honestly, I'm hardwired a little differently in that I, before I take that first step, I need to really sit in that change and really think about all the angles and look at the risks and try and quantify the pros and cons, all the things. And so I take a different approach to the conversation. I think between the two of us, it works really well. I slowed down, she pushes me to move faster, I push her to slow down slightly. And therefore we're able to really think about these different avenues for change. And I mean, let's be honest, right? It doesn't always work. It doesn't always like feel great right away, but we're constantly, if we are constantly performing, active listening and constantly thinking about what can be better, we're able to continually improve the way that we approach the work and the projects and, and the scale. And what are those trade offs when you're scaling, either scaling the amount of businesses you can serve at any given time. And there was a point where we were serving very, very deeply, five to 10 businesses in a given year. Like we were really deeply embedded in those businesses on the ground, like really, really. And it Was, you know, and we were, you know, it was, there was massive impact for, for those businesses as a result. But that's five to 10 businesses in one year. There are thousands upon thousands of businesses. We would never be able to address all the needs of all those businesses that were constantly reaching out to us and say, hey, can you, can you help me out? I, this is my need. I need help doing this thing. And if we're only focused on those five to 10, we would never be able to do it. And so what are those trade offs? You know, we can't, we can't be deeply embedded in thousands of businesses at the same time. Right. That's not really possible. So how can we address those needs? You know, how can we do that? And then also constantly with every project we, we have a bit of a postmortem and we talk amongst the teams, what went well, what didn't go well, what didn't feel great for the artist in business or for the brand partner and really just have that kind of collective moment to learn from it and just to see what can be improved all the time. And so that constant iteration, as Rebecca talked about, is truly deeply embedded, even if we are approaching the work in a slightly different way.
- [30:12]
Interviewer
I'm thinking about power in this too. I don't mean between the two of you or the business, but the power balance between the different parties you're working with. Because in a lot of organizational constructs, you have an emphasis on nonprofits, you have an emphasis on the people that we serve, the beneficiaries. We'll call them what you will. The people we're trying to. Our mission is focused on and in many others, it's all about the profit, right? In some sense or other, when you're not exactly in the middle, but facilitating this work between these parties, it sounds like you're serving multiple needs. How do you find that balance? How do you do active listening against people who may not be saying the same things and then get those points to agree?
- [30:55]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I think it's hard. I think, I think that's the crux of the work. How do we get a multinational retailer and a small maker to speak the same language and have a shared goal? And I think, think there are times that feels easy. There are times it feels really difficult. Chris mentioned that we, that brands were struggling to have transparency into home based work, which is where artisans are practicing. And so we've launched this program, our ethical handcraft program. And the basis of that program is a set of standards that companies adopt as Their ethical compliance code of conduct for people who are working in homes. And it was really interesting. We brought to a. Part of the journey of writing it was, was to bring together brands and retailers. Target, Patagonia, West Elm, the Children's Place, Calvin Klein, all in a room. And to bring, you know, workers and artisans into that same room and have conversations at the same time.
- [31:49]
Interviewer
All those brands at the same time.
- [31:51]
Rebecca Van Bergen
So you know, women saying, you know, children are in our homes, they're we're teaching them the crap that's our legacy and brand saying absolutely not. That's childlike, you know, and like trying to navigate what the middle ground is. It was, it felt important to us that the more barriers we can remove and the more direct communication that can happen, the more empathy and understanding it kind of building a shared strategy would, would come. And so there were moments of, of, of tension but for the most part it was, it was a really eye opening experience and we coalesced and landed on a set of standards which are open sourced. And we launched with the United nations several years ago.
- [32:28]
Interviewer
Oh wow. I'm still kind of puzzling over how you got several brands that are competing with one another in the same room. And usually what they're doing, I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, but they're trying to get the best deal. So that means it's irrespective of whom. So whether they're dealing with some giant factory in Singapore or that's probably a bad example, but Hong Kong or something, or whether it's some, you know, a woman who's in her 70s and has been making this beautiful thing her whole life and never had a distributor, they're going to treat it the same way. It's about a transaction. And if you got them not only to start thinking responsibly or to encourage that through these practices and policies, but also then to work with one another in the same space, I don't know how that works. How'd you even get them in the same room?
- [33:20]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I think one of the things that's interesting about the sector, and Chris can chime in on this too, is that around standards and kind of transparency in a supply chain, they're actually kind of after disasters like Rana Plaza and other things that really rocked the world in terms of consumer awareness, of, of the challenges within massive supply chains there. The industry actually really came together and decided that they wanted to collaborate to create shared understanding of ethical practices and that if everyone did their own thing, then you know, there's like funny stories in the industry, like going into a factory and there's like multiple fire extinguishers on a wall all at a different height, because when they get audited, the, the companies want it at a different height on the wall. And so, you know, a silly investment in, you know, sort of an unnecessary investment versus like the real challenges. And so there have been several movements to kind of aggregate the industry together around a shared vision for ethical practices practices. And so when we realized that there was not a shared understanding of work that was subcontracted from a factory into a home, we knew we wanted the full industry to buy into it. That if we were going to build one, it couldn't be for West Elm alone, it couldn't be for Target alone, It had to be for the whole industry. And so knew we needed to get the companies together. And they, but that was, that was, you know, they, they knew that too. So there was, there was buy in from them to, to do it collaboratively. And then worker voice, you know that, that's the social worker in us. That was, that was non negotiable.
- [34:52]
Interviewer
Chris, does this, does this sound like the way you remember going through this process of getting these, these hardball players in the room and then actually to be nice guys.
- [35:02]
Chris Van Bergen
Yeah, it was, it was actually very interesting. And Rebecca's spot on in terms of the fact that this effort for us happened after things like Rana Plaza that had happened a few years earlier. And those types of moments, you don't.
- [35:14]
Interviewer
Know, for those who don't know about that.
- [35:16]
Chris Van Bergen
Yeah. So Rana Plaza was a massive factory collapse that happened in Bangladesh. Thousands of people lost their lives. And what came out of that issue was all of these brand players didn't even realize that their garments had been subcontracted to this factory. There were so many issues with that particular factory. There was a lot of illegal construction, there was a lot of political corruption, but it was a devastating moment. And there were a lot of brands that were implicated in that moment and a lot of other brands thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be in the next round of applause or crisis, something needs to change. And part of the issue was all these brands had these different requirements. The standards and the auditing process at the time didn't really have the teeth that it needed to have. And so the industry did start coming together around particular issues and having collective action to address systemic challenges in the industry. And that if anything positive came out of that, that, that was the kind of a defining moment. So there's a big brand collaborative that there were actually two different competing sort of collaborative efforts within Bangladesh and it's now spread more globally. But it was this, it really fostered this idea of pre competitive collaboration for brand players that in the market would be competitors. And so, you know, two companies in our case that were both selling home goods, both selling woven baskets, one constantly sort of knocking off the other's designs when it was creating new styles and things like that, that were truly competitors. We're sitting around the same table and talking in very real terms about their challenges, knowing it was a safe space, knowing it would never leave the room. They would never. There would never be, you know, internal blowback at their company because they had these discussions. It was really towards this, this collaborative effort to establish something that made sense not only for their company, but for the industry and for the vendor partners that they work with that, that M.O. most, not all, but most brands shifted this idea from constantly chasing the lowest price for their product, you know, bouncing from one supplier to another every single year because they wanted the lowest cost, to establishing more longer term, longer standing relationships with their suppliers. That was happening at a factory level. And the brands thankfully realized it also needed to happen at this level. And frankly, because of things like Rona Plaza, this idea of really needing supply chain transparency, really needing to understand who is making my product. And we thought we knew because we thought we were dealing with this factory, but that factory subcontracted over to those folks. Oh my gosh, we didn't know that. In our case, as Rebecca indicated, we deal with primarily homeworking supply chains. As you're peeling back the layers of the onion with factory production, at some point, a lot of those products or the embellishment of those products is actually not happening in the factory. And so brands were realizing, oh, this is also happening in the homes. I'm not known as a artisanal product, you know, convey purveyor. And my customer isn't coming to me for that, but they are coming to me for baskets. I'm a big box retailer and people buy a lot of storage units for me. And almost all those baskets aren't being made in a factory. I need to get a handle on the supply chain. And so, so that was also the impetus. It was kind of a twofold piece. Some brands were coming to us because they wanted to really leverage the artisanal quality of the handcraft. Others came to us because they wanted to mitigate risk in their supply chain. They knew they needed to work collectively and collaboratively together to really establish something super powerful. And that's really what we're able to do. And I think frankly, they needed Nest. They needed us as that objective third party. Both sides did. Right. Because to your point about power, there is a, a very real power dynamic between the brands and the people and the businesses that they're sourcing the products from. Businesses don't really want to say no to those brands. The brands feel like, you know, there's a lot more power in that relationship. But if Ness is coming in as an objective third party, we don't have any stake in the business transaction between those partners. Right. We are looking for impact. That's really why we are at the center of this relationship. It's all about the impact and the collective impact. And so they needed us as that convener to establish that safe space to have these conversations so that collectively we could establish something that was super powerful.
- [39:31]
Interviewer
It does sound like this is very much something you've been able to create and evolve in an increasingly global environment, not just in terms of trade, but trade relationships and also other international relationships like the one you mentioned. Rebecca, with the U.N. do you see that changing in our current environment? We're living in the United States and it's a particular political moment. Is it changing at all?
- [39:57]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I think, you know, we Covid actually in some way, actually when we all became homeworkers for the first time, all of a sudden there was like an empathy for the type of work that craft women do. And I think there was a lot of our brands were hesitant to talk about the ethical handcraft program in detail because they didn't want consumers to know that the goods were being made in homes. They didn't think that was something that people would understand or be able to picture. And, and that really shifted. And so I think an embrace of homework has, has been home based work has been, you know, a change for the better since. Since that time. You know, I think the, you know, all the kind of political and economic and social changes we're seeing now, I think kind of of still TBD a little bit. But I think one of the things we feel excited about is that I think craft is one of the few unifiers we have right now. We're so divisive as a country, as a globe. And craft exists everywhere. It's how community has always been defined. It's how culture's been defined. And so there's something really powerful about that. We often challenge people to think about their own family legacy. Almost everybody is connected to a maker or a craftsperson. Their grandmother was a quilter or a knitter, a sewer, their grandfather was a cobbler, or, you know, it just, it's in everyone's family story. And so it does feel like something that, that everyone can understand. And so we feel hopeful that it might be part of a story of beauty. And in a time where a lot of the news is not. Not that.
- [41:26]
Interviewer
Yeah. Well, there's a discussion right now of tariffs globally, and that's not having an impact that you anticipate on all the different craft workers that you're working with.
- [41:37]
Chris Van Bergen
Tariffs is maybe. I'll take this one, Rebecca. Tariffs is an interesting one. And what I mean by that is it's dramatically impacting some workers because of the countries they're in, but oddly for other places. So let's take China, for example, right? The big terror conversation related to China. There is handcraft that comes out of China, certainly. I mean, it's obviously a very large country with a long tradition and history. As a result of those conversations, what we are hearing is that brands and other. Or vendors in other parts of the world, in the. On the continent of Africa, in other places in Southeast Asia, are all of a sudden being approached by brands to do more sampling work. So in a weird way, for them, it might even open up an opportunity, unless, frankly, unless everybody gets tariffed and then everything just blows up, essentially. But in other places, brands are now for the first time seeking handcrafted products from places like Indonesia or from places in Africa, for example, or the Philippines. And so it. We're trying to. We're very conscious of the fact that an opportunity for some people, a new opportunity means that that opportunity is gone for others. And so there is this strange sort of balance of the scale that we have to navigate. And it's, it's. For us, our role, honestly, is just to help. Help arm the businesses that are being negatively impacted by those types of conversations. A complete external force, right, has nothing to do with their business operations, their quality or anything, but it's acting on that business, how we can help them try and be more resilient, come up with different ways that they can bring their product to market. Maybe it has to be more of a domestic market for the time being to weather that storm. And for those other businesses, how they could responsibly scale their production capabilities and capacities to meet a potential growing demand. And so it's. It's a, It's a. It's tricky waters for us to navigate. But we, again, we're. We try and be as an objective as possible and be as supportive as possible from everyone, knowing that some people are experiencing this hopeful opportunity while others are losing their livelihood, frankly. And so it is a challenging place for us to sit. But that's. That's the service we're trying to provide for both. Both sides of that. Right.
- [43:47]
Interviewer
What's the hardest part of this for each of you and. And collectively for the business? What. What is. What's the hardest part of this been?
- [43:56]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I can go first. I. For me, as you know, I take Nest is like my first child. We have two others. But I take everything at Nest very personally because I, like, It's just very. It's very difficult for me to separate myself from the organization. And so if things are hard at Nest, I take that just very, very personally, which I then bring home into our relationship. And so that's definitely, I think, been the hardest part. You know, the last several years have had some ups and downs, and obviously for the foreseeable future, it looks like that might become more of the normal. And so learning to navigate, being able to disassociate myself from the organization, success, I think has been something I continue to navigate as a founder.
- [44:37]
Interviewer
That.
- [44:38]
Rebecca Van Bergen
That's challenging. And then added that we're married. And so it's like, you know, we don't set it. We don't set it aside as often as maybe we should should.
- [44:46]
Interviewer
Right. No, it must. It never goes away. Right. You know, the good times and the bad times in the business obviously, are there over breakfast and every other time of day.
- [44:55]
Chris Van Bergen
The joy of working together is amazing and. And very powerful. But it's also the biggest challenge, both for us individually, as a. As a couple and as a family. But I think sometimes maybe also for nest, because in a traditional structure, you have, you know, you have the executive director and you have, you know, I run the operations finance of the organization. Those, they're not as. As linked as they are in our case since we are married. Right. And so we need to make sure that there are guiding lines between the work that we do. So there's, you know, safety for the team to bring up issues and. And other things like that. And so it is. It's the trickiest waters for us to navigate for sure. And so, But. But it, again, it. It's the blessing and the curse of being able to. To work together. And I mean, it's sort of. I don't know if it's funny, but, you know, our children told us once that the only time they hear us bicker and fight, it's. It's around Nest, which I guess maybe means we're doing a good job in our relationship. But it's was, was also sort of a moment that we had to pause and say, oh well, maybe we need to like figure out how we can have those more tense conversations in a way that either the kids aren't worried about us fighting or, you know, it just feels more productive. And so it's been, that's the part that's, that's been I think, the trickiest for us to navigate.
- [46:24]
Interviewer
How, how old are your kids?
- [46:26]
Rebecca Van Bergen
10 and 12.
- [46:28]
Interviewer
7 and 12. So everything is major in their lives. Even if you're bickering over the, the balance sheet that was printed yesterday, even if tomorrow's is brilliant, I can imagine what is it like to be operating a social enterprise. So it's not just about profit, it's about mission. You're thinking about a lot of people and also then you're taking care of too little people.
- [46:55]
Rebecca Van Bergen
Which I think is the most fun part. Like them being old enough now to participate in the organization. We bring them on our staff retreats. They're like our mascots. They, you know, they travel with us. They really are old enough now that they can understand the mission of what we're trying to do and see to be able to raise kids to understand that they need to be playing a role in the society we want to create and that that's what their parents do has been so meaningful. So I think we're, we're loving this stage where they're, they're old enough to be a part of it, which is fun.
- [47:27]
Interviewer
I wonder if they have you heard their elevator speech for nest? Because kids often internalize but then they say it their own way to either friends or, you know, adults. How do they describe what you do?
- [47:39]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I mean our, our 12 year old daughter, one of our biggest partners is Kendra Scott, the jewelry brand who is her idol. The 12 year old girls, you know, have cornered the market of Kendra Scott necklaces so, you know, they each find the things that really gravitate them to the work we're doing. So she'd probably lead with some of the cool people. She knows where we've gotten a chance to work with. But I think they both really deeply understand craft and making. It's in my family and Chris's. Both of our, Chris's mother is a weaver, my grandmother was a quilter. And so they really see it in our own family and then in our work. And so I think the idea of creativity and supporting people really resonates with Them, obviously, as kids, and they create and make on their own, too.
- [48:22]
Interviewer
So I was going to ask you what brings you the joy in all this? Because running a business is hard. You were starting to talk about that. But, but, you know. Elaborate, Chris. What. What's, what's the most joyful part of all this?
- [48:37]
Chris Van Bergen
Yeah, the, the, the most joyful part for me is seeing the impact of the work and understanding the stories of the people behind the hands that make the product and how craft is not only beautiful, but is so powerful for them, for their families, for their communities. Understanding those stories and watching the impact. Watching the light bulb moments of our brand partners when they go on the ground for the first time and see where those baskets are actually being made and meet some of the amazing people in the community that are making those baskets and watching them have a conversation, a direct conversation between somebody who normally sits in headquarters somewhere in the United States or in Europe and a woman who was able to build a home because of those baskets that were being sourced by that brand. Those are the goosebump moments for me, really understanding that. And again, it goes back to the reason I was interested in Rebecca Ness in the first place. Right. I mean, it's that impact story. That direct impact with the lives behind those products is, is incredibly powerful. And, and frankly, we both get great joy of leading and managing a team of amazing and passionate people who also deeply believe in this organization and the mission to bring their own unique qualities and specializations and talents to the work every single day. Work incredibly hard at it. And watching them thrive and grow also brings great joy. I don't want to say they're children because they're absolutely not, but there is sort of a parental feeling over the team and the staff and wanting to make sure they're feeling cared for. And, and when they're not, that also, when they, when they're not feeling it, that also hurts. Right. And you want to, you want to do better. You want the organization to make sure that everyone is feeling supported in whatever's going on in their own personal life, for example, or what they need to, how they're showing up at work. And, and so that's, you know, we're talking about joy, but that's also been one of the challenges when we shifted to being a. We are a fully remote organization still. We, we went that way at Covet, during COVID that way. Lots of benefits for that, lots. We can hire all over the world. We have people everywhere on our team now. But one of the challenges is you can't have that direct human connection with people over zoom. You can't be in the same room and in sense it's like, hey, you know what's going on? It feels a little off. What's happening? How can I help? It's harder to do that over a computer when you're not physically in the same space. And so that's, it's been an interesting challenge for us to navigate, but when we get it right, it feels amazing. But it is something we certainly think about a lot. How do we care for those folks when we're not in the same room? How do we set a culture where it feels open and collaborative when we're needing to engage over, over technology instead?
- [51:26]
Interviewer
How many what, what, what, what's the scale of the operation now? How many staff and how many partners, et cetera?
- [51:34]
Rebecca Van Bergen
We have a staff of 30. We have, yeah, we have a staff of 30 and probably about the same number of active brand partners. I would say between, yeah, 25 to 30. And then our, in our artisan guild we have about 3,000 small to medium sized businesses in 123 countries. So very broad, which is, it's just amazing to see that kind of global footprint. I, you know, pinch myself every day. So you asked about joy and you know, just to be able to have seen the growth and know I played some sort of role in it is really incredible.
- [52:07]
Interviewer
And you both talked about impact, I guess as the primary driver of this because there are many things that you both have done and can do and you've chosen this and you've chosen to keep doing this. So what is the impact you want to see? So now you've done 20 years and I know it's a lot to ask. Crystal ball questions are never fun. But if you looked ahead for 10 or 20 years, what would you really like to have accomplished?
- [52:33]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I'm terrible at future looking questions. I'm. It's. But you know, I think only because like I would never have imagined being where I am today, 20 years ago. So. So really, you know, no, no, I can't even see the, the future. But I, you know, I think I'm really, we're really energized by the conversations around technology. I think that it's actually oddly one of the most pivotal moments for handcraft. It's a huge opportunity for us. As the world becomes, becomes so much more automated. People really are yearning for the handmade. Like you've seen not only a rise in purchasing but also a rise in doing like the number of people who now want to learn how to knit and sew and bake bread. And, like, you know, it's just. It's fueled this entire industry of. Of connections to people and hands. And so we feel like, you know, we're just at the. I, you know, tip of the iceberg of what's possible in terms of helping bring craft into the mainstream and allow it to continue to succeed.
- [53:31]
Interviewer
Maybe just a last question. You both mentioned having folks in your family who have crafted, and I don't know if that was one of the inspirations for this. This particular form of social enterprise or not, but it must have made an impact on you when you grew up around people who make things. It's meaningful. When you talk to them now, assuming they are alive and with you now in your families, what do they say about what you're doing?
- [53:56]
Rebecca Van Bergen
I can start. My grandmother was definitely the impetus for my starting this, not only because her family legacy was textiles, but, you know, she was from a rural farm in North Carolina, and they made quilts out of, you know, discarded feed bags. And, you know, it was like. It was upcycling before upcycling was a word. And. And so, so much of craft. And her legacy was around craft as livelihood, as, you know, culture, as community, as this connection to her mom and her mother line. I actually, she also was really an inspiration in terms of social justice. She once said that every single one of her grandchildren works for a nonprofit, which is true. So she really was the motivator in our family to put doing good and at the heart of our career aspirations. We. I actually just lost her this. This. This past winter, which was very heartbreaking. But she was a. She was Nest's biggest cheerleader.
- [54:56]
Chris Van Bergen
And for me, I think so my mom is a weaver. My mom, both of her parents are Swedish. It was very big weaving tradition in Sweden, and she. Generations before her were all weavers as well, with natural dyed yarns and things like that. And I. I think for my mom, craft was always a very personal thing in that in the family, they would weave things and always just sort of stay in the family. So it wasn't this idea of leveraging craft as a economic opportunity, but I think through the work of Nest, I think it is something that my mother finds very inspiring that there are people who are practicing these crafts, making beautiful things, seeing the value of those things, and then being able to leverage that for the betterment of their community, I think she finds very powerful. And so it's. But it's. She's the. We use Today she, she's now doing all sorts of interesting textile arts and things like that. It's fascinating when we go visit and see her looms set up and watching her then work with my daughter to put some yarn in the loom, it feels really nice to watch that happen in those textiles. So, yeah, I would say it's that it was sort of a click for her. It's like, oh, these things can drive forward this amazing opportunity for these communities. And, you know, girls can now go to school because their school fees are paid because of the craft that somebody is practicing on the other side of the world. So that's, that's the powerful piece of it.
- [56:23]
Interviewer
And Rebecca, maybe just the very final question for you, which is that you've talked about the origin of this and you've talked about the best you can project what might happen and what brings you joy with this for, for you as you think about this in its totality and sum. What brings you the greatest pride?
- [56:47]
Rebecca Van Bergen
That's a good question. You have me, you have me stuck I tongue tied for a minute. You know, I think that's a good question. I, you know, I think there was in every, every day the little stories bring me pride. But I think one of the things, things that truly brings me the most pride is to look back on 20 years and see that, you know, the, the first Togo Peace Corps volunteer is still on staff today and so many of our board members have stayed. I started NEST so young. I was 23. I had no idea what I was doing. And so much of building and running this organization has been fully because people somehow believed and trusted and, and came alongside me. To do it together in so many of those people have shaped the journey that we've walked. And to still have them walking beside me on this road all these years later is by far my biggest joy. From the makers themselves, who are still involved and still tell stories to all the supporters along the way. And so I just, you know, I started NEST and called it NEST because I had this idea of being a supportive community for women and being able for it to be launchpad for, for people to feel safe enough that they can fly. But you always come back to it too. And, and I, you know, still I believe and hope that the organization feels that way to the people who have gotten involved or have been a part of it over the years.
- [58:08]
Jay Frost
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM podcast. You can learn more about Nest@buildanest.org Our thanks to our sponsor Donor Search the world leader in AI and donor research from nonprofit fundraising. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise. And come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.