← The PM Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript143 lines
- [00:00]
Derek Baker
I'm not a. Not a naturally patient person, I'll tell you that. I had my patience tested and it was negative. But so, so patience does come hard to me often. And so it was, you know, but it's. But you're right. You're absolutely right. It is. That is a learned thing. And I think that you learn that over time that, you know, let this play out a little bit, see how this goes. Don't make your. Reserve your judgments. I think the world would be a lot better place if we followed those three little words more consistently as people reserve your judgment.
- [00:32]
Jay Frost
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Evertru Studios, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. My guest today is Derek Baker, founder and CEO of Dickerson Baker, Fundraising strategist, consultant, speaker, and author of A Better Way to Fundraiser. For more than three decades, Derek has helped nonprofit organizations strengthen their fundraising leadership strategy and capacity for impact. What began almost by chance with his first fundraising position in 1990, grew into a career spanning frontline development, major gifts, capital campaigns, organizational leadership, and consulting. Today, Derek leads a national team of more than 50 professionals serving nonprofits across the country. He is also a leading advocate for reimagining relationship based fundraising by using AI and emerging technologies to extend the principles of major gift fundraising across the entire donor base. In this episode, we talk about Derek's journey from his childhood as an itinerant pastor's SON to the McDonald's breakfast that changed his future trajectory, the work and fundraising that shaped his professional life, and his thoughts on living a life of purpose.
- [01:51]
Interviewer
We have had these conversations all about the work. I haven't had a chance to explore who is behind the work, but I do know that you are because you've talked about it in your book.
- [02:01]
Jay Frost
You're a preacher's kid.
- [02:02]
Interviewer
I am, but what does that really mean? Tell me about what that was like growing up. Where are you from and what was that like?
- [02:10]
Derek Baker
Yeah, so one of the things about being a preacher's kid, especially in the day that I grew up as a preacher's kid, it's really hard to answer the question where you're from because, you know, I mean, particularly in those days, I mean, preachers, you know, pastors stay at churches a lot longer today than they did when I was growing up. But you would be in a place for, you know, three, four years. And that was typically, you're, you're getting another, you know, you're getting a call to move somewhere. And. And so we. We traversed a fair bit. I think one of the things that people don't realize about me is that I spent a very significant part of my younger years in Canada. You know, my. My dad was a pastor that trained in the, you know, part of the. What was called the Christian Reformed Church, which most people don't know what that is, but it's a small denomination that punches way above its weight, but is largely based in the. In the west Michigan area. So, of course, I was born in Grand Rapids and, you know, that was home and has kind of been home over the years and of gravitated back and forth, but we spent a lot of time in. In. My dad spent a lot of time serving Canadian churches, so that had a big impact on me over the years as well.
- [03:23]
Interviewer
I didn't know about the Michigan connection either. And so we have a. We have a big connection there. My family had a farm in western Michigan, 20 minutes out of Grant Rapids for 151 years. Oh, wow.
- [03:37]
Derek Baker
Whereabouts?
- [03:38]
Interviewer
In a little town called Lowell.
- [03:40]
Derek Baker
I know it well.
- [03:42]
Interviewer
Yeah. How. How do you know Lowell? Why would you have been there?
- [03:46]
Derek Baker
I. I don't remember why I was. Why I. Why I was there, but I can remember, you know, many times being. Being through Lowell. And so. Yeah, so I don't know if you
- [03:57]
Interviewer
were a sports guy because, of course, those teams all played in Western Michigan against one another.
- [04:01]
Derek Baker
Yeah. Yeah, that's probably it. Yeah, it's probably it. But.
- [04:05]
Interviewer
Wow. So. Yeah, so, yeah, that's a. That's a very specific kind of place. Describe what it was like growing up there.
- [04:13]
Derek Baker
Well, I grew. So I actually grew up in kind of the urban center of Grand Rapids back in the day. You know, my, My, My. My. My father went to Calvin College and Calvin Seminary, and I kind of followed down that path and the old campus of Calvin College, if anybody knows Grand Rapids, it's now kind of, I think, the Grand Rapids School of Music, but it was not where Calvin University is today. It was on a. On Franklin Avenue and very much the center city of Grand Rapids. And we lived right across the road from the campus. So there was just, you know, constantly students and, you know, just, you know, I can remember being on my right, being on the front porch of our house and, you know, sitting there with my mom and, you know, we'd, you know, there'd all be a student activity going across the way, and sometimes water fights would break out or something like that. And I so badly wanted to get in the mix of that. But so it was, you know, my. My Grand Rapids memories are all very positive in the sense of. It was just. It was a lot of fun living right across the road from the college campus.
- [05:22]
Interviewer
But as you say, you were traveling around. So then you all went to Canada when you were. When you were young as well?
- [05:28]
Derek Baker
Yep. Yep.
- [05:29]
Jay Frost
We.
- [05:30]
Derek Baker
I. I think I was about six or seven years old when. When we left Grand Rapids the first time. And we ended up going to a little town in southwestern Ontario called Simcoe, where my dad was serving a church plant. Very small. It was kind of a very small church, kind of starting out, staying in or, you know, meeting in little rented. I don't know, like a little rented Lions hall or something like that to start. So his, you know, his task basically was to. To get the church planted and they, you know, get a church built and get a church start. You know, a church started there. And it's kind of cool because that church stands to this day. I remember when they built it and, you know, it was so it's. It was. That was a fun experience being part of that as well. Just being part of a, you know, a growing, new, dynamic church. Starting from scratch.
- [06:25]
Interviewer
Yeah, it sounds almost like mission work versus, you know, being the parish priest or something. You're starting from scratch.
- [06:31]
Derek Baker
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, You're. You're going into a community and there was a, you know, it was a church plant from, you know, from another church that was not too far away. So they started with a. Right. They started with a core and. And, yeah, started from scratch.
- [06:50]
Interviewer
But for people who aren't familiar with this or maybe have never belonged to a church or a synagogue or a mosque, they may not know what it's like to be a kid in a family where faith is the center, and especially when your father is the minister of that church or the pastor. So they might be thinking about Footloose or something. So help us to paint a proper picture about what it was like for you as a kid growing up and. And the role of the. Of faith and in the discussion, the family, because I'm sure it influences your thoughts on. On philanthropy, among other things.
- [07:25]
Derek Baker
Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I think is interesting when you. When you're. When you grow up in a, you know, in. In the home of a, you know, church leader, like a pastor or, you know, whatever the case may be, is churches. You know, faith is. Faith is not just faith. Faith is all of the stuff that comes along with it. Right. That faith is Is, you know, the, the church stuff. And you know, honestly today I, I have probably developed because of my upbringing on the church side of things. Right. All of that sort of side of things. I've, I've almost developed a little bit of an allergy towards institutional church. I think when you grow up in the church and you have to be, you know, if there was something happening at the church at the time we were there, right, we had to be there. You know, know, every service at the church, we had to be there. And I think the things that you see too is, you know, pastors are humans. And, you know, my, my dad went through some tough stuff and he was right. He. He was, he was a wounded leader. One of the things that we might want, you know, that we can talk about is, is my mother passed away, you know, when, when we were young. So during that church in Simcoe, Ontario, my mother passed away. Had a huge impact on our family. Right. The pastor, no matter how they're feeling, no matter where they're at, you know, they may have had a, you know, breakdown, you know, over breakfast Sunday morning at the, at the table, they've still got to climb off that pulpit at 10 o' clock in the morning and be a church leader. Right. And you can kind of experience all of the things that go on kind of associated with institutional church life that, you know, are not always, they're not always aligned with, you know, kind of, kind of authentic spirituality and, you know, faith experiences, if I might say that.
- [09:14]
Interviewer
Yeah. How old were you when you lost your mom?
- [09:18]
Derek Baker
I was seven. Just seven years old. So it was short. She died of cancer and I was the youngest in the family, so it was tough. You know, it was a tough experience. I think it was tougher on my older siblings. You know, I think the thing about when you lose a parent at that age, you don't grieve in the same way that adults grieve or older people grieve. Grieving is kind of a process of time, you know, because I just. When, when you're seven years old, you don't really have a sense of what the, you know, what it means to, you know, to lose somebody, you know, permanently through death. And it's, it's. As you go through milestones, as you get older, I think then you really start to, you really start to realize the, the depth of that loss.
- [10:05]
Interviewer
Yeah. How many of you are there? How many siblings?
- [10:09]
Derek Baker
There were five at the time in my, in, in, in, in the family. And so we've, you know, we've lost one. And when my, when my dad remarried, we gained one. So we gained a step, you know, a stepbrother.
- [10:25]
Interviewer
So there you were, the, the five. Five kids, the time. And it wasn't just navigating a different kind of family. And it sounds like a different place from where you were born, but I'm sure it was your father taking care of two families, the church family and then his family, his biological family. I don't know what you could recall from that, but I'm sure it must have left an impression about being present as a father.
- [10:53]
Derek Baker
Yeah, it did. Know my dad was a very dutiful person. Right. So the irony is that, you know, I think, you know, my mother died on a Tuesday, and he was back in the pulpit on that same Sunday, you know, and so he was the kind of man who was going to do his duty and he was going to. Right. And, and he came from a generation where, right, you, you had kind of this stoic sort of, you know, you kind of did your job, you did your duty, you didn't, didn't, you know, you put aside how you felt. But, you know, one, one of the interesting things, I think in an experience like that, when you talk about, yes, he had his church family and yes, he had his family, in a sense, there's, it's interesting because I think for us growing up, I think one of the, one of the ways that my dad dealt with his grief was by putting. Pouring himself into his work, right. And, you know, but there's a compensation that happens because your church family just really, when something like that happens and you're part of a church community like that, a faith community like that, you get folks that just really come around, you know, and, and just surround you and just help you. So we had, you know, we kind of had. The irony is we had, you know, we had a father that was pouring himself into the church family, but we had a church family that was pouring themselves into, you know, into our family. And so it's just an interesting dynamic because you, you, you also then see the real positive things about those sort of faith experiences and being part of those faith communities is the support that you get and the loving kind of support that you get from the people. And that's, to me, what church is about. The thing that I said earlier, I have an allergy towards kind of the institutional church, the politics of the church, all of that sort of thing. But the thing I think that is real, authentic, where faith communities and churches are so important, is that sense of real Community, that sense of we're, you know, we're, we are, we care for each other, we're there for each other, we support each other. That authenticity of that human connection.
- [12:54]
Interviewer
You talk, I know, in your book about service or unique reference to service, probably a lot more than once, but I, I'm remembering a passage where you talked about that and, and how that's kind of how that's defined. I wonder if some of that comes from. You're witnessing all that at a really early age. I mean, not just the service that a minister or pastor has with his church, but also, as you're saying, the congregation has with their pastor about what the idea is, about what your responsibility is to one another.
- [13:29]
Derek Baker
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I think that, you know, when you go through that formative experience, I think that you have that sense of, you know, taking care of others and, and making sure that others in their time of need or Right. And I think there's also a sense where you, you get that sense of you're going to pay back, you know, you want to pay it forward, you want to, you know, you want to help others because, you know, others have helped you. You know, growing up, it was always drilled into us, you know, that, you know, that don't chase the almighty dollar, right? There's, there's, there's, there's something more important to do, a sense of purpose, a sense of. And when I was growing up, you know, you basically, you know, your, your basic options for that if you want, you know, were well, I'm going to be a, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be a preacher. I'm going to. Right. There were certain defined things that you did that were kind of service things. And you know, the real irony is that, you know, just talking a little bit about the career that I ended up in, you know, the thing that I love about fundraising and working in nonprofit world is exactly that, that, you know, it is, is such a service oriented business. You are, you are serving people in so many different ways. I mean, there's, in the direct way, ultimately you're serving donors, right? You're serving folks that are supporting, you know, you're, you're, you're serving the, the folks that are partnering with. It is, it is in many ways as a fundraising position, it's kind of a customer relations position in a sense. But on top of that, it is the downstream impact of that that, you know, because of the, you know, money ultimately is the fuel that drives ministry and drives mission. And so it is really the thing that if you're, you're, you know, if you're doing a good job in developing those resources and ultimately in serving the people that are giving those resources, you have more resources that can be applied downstream to, you know, serve more people. And so it, it really is for me, a very, you know, rewarding career.
- [15:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, I, I can, I can imagine. Well, I mean, I've certainly found it to be true as well, but I know that we don't always get to pick our clients, so to speak. I mean, it's one thing when you're working for organization. You, I guess there's a marriage there of the person and the cause, hopefully. But. But when you're doing all the things you've done, I know we'll get into that a little bit more, but sometimes people come to you and then you make a decision about whether or not that's a good, a good partnership to help them in their journey to generate that resource and achieve that mission. So maybe we can touch on that for a minute and then we go back to it later. But have you found that you were making choices about the causes, the clients that you worked with, on the basis of kind of your purpose orientation?
- [16:37]
Derek Baker
Well, I would say one thing kind of at the outset, there are, you know, for the most part, I, I won't work with. I choose not to work with organizations that are directly doing things that are contrary to my values as a, as a Christian. Right. That there are fewer of those than most people would assume. You know. And so, you know, you know, but then beyond that, I also don't want to work with folks that are hostile to what I believe. Right. And so even if they're not doing something that is, you know, so, so those would be, those would be accept. Those would be exceptions more than anything else. It's very, very rare that we'd say, you know, what, we're, we're not going to, you know, we're not going to work with that individual or that group or whatever the case may be. One of the things in our, in our business is that our services are typically bought, not sold, if that makes sense. And so.
- [17:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, but talk about that. Talk about that difference.
- [17:39]
Derek Baker
Yeah, I actually said that backwards. Our services are sold, not bought. And so somebody doesn't come into the, into our store and say, I want to buy that. And so, you know, kind of randomly, you know, randomly walk into our, into our storefront and say they want to buy something off of our shelf, you know, it comes through inquiry and it comes through kind of, you know, discussion and conversation. And then there's kind of some mutual discernment. Is this a good fit?
- [18:07]
Interviewer
Then
- [18:10]
Derek Baker
you begin to go further down that conversation road till the proposal goes on the table and then you come for a presentation, you have a further conversation. And if any point in that conversation it becomes apparent that this is not a good fit for either party, it's relatively easy to find an exit ramp. And so it's not like I'm not going to work with you folks. So it's kind of like, you know what? Doesn't sound like we're the perfect fit for you guys, but let me recommend so and so who might be a better fit or something like that. And, and, and so it's a very different scenario in the type of work that we do in business to business kind of, you know, you know, client service work, then it would be in others. But that's one of the, one of the things that, that, that we can do. Other than those things though, Jay, I'm really right. It's very rare that that will say no, you know, that's not a good fit for us. I can remember a time in particular when we were working with a, it's kind of a, it was an organization that did, did a lot of addiction recovery work. This particular organization was super, super conservative, like, like really on the very much kind of what, what you might characterize as kind of the, the fundamentalist side of the right of the Christian continuum. And I remember it was really hard for me because, you know, I don't, I don't live there. I tend to live in a world of grace, right. And you know, you know, I figure it's not my, you know, not my place to judge. I also tend to, tend to be a little more like, you know, the word, you know, the world has, has more gray than black and white. But you know, I, I can remember working with this organization and in the, in the early going, I just had a sense of, man, this is very off putting to me, right. But the more I worked with them and got to know them as individuals and got to know kind of their hearts, I learned a couple of things. One is again, you know, a lot of kind of where they're at is inherited and is part of their journey, right? So until you really understand kind of what their journey was, to get where it is that, you know, to form, right? To form kind of their mindset. But the other thing I learned is that, that they were, they were Doing something very important. And God was using them in a way that was kind of like, okay, this. This is actually working. Because what I learned is, for instance, they, you know, they were very effective at. At their work. And I. I believe that one of the reasons. Two of the reasons that they were really effective at their work is one is they weren't trying to change people's behaviors. They were trying to change people's hearts. And so, you know, ultimately, if you're gonna. If you're gonna. If you're going to change somebody who is in a right. In a situation with. Struggling with addiction or something like that, you know, it. It really involves more kind of transformational heart change. You can't just change behaviors. But the other thing I learned is that when people are coming off of addiction, when they're in those first stages of recovery, they need black and white. They need things to be black and white. It's not till they're further down in that recovery kind of journey that they can become that they're. They're healthier, they're. They're further from right. That they can get a they. That they can, you know, start to live in more shades of gray. But when you're coming straight off of addiction, it need. You need rules. You need very clear black and white. You need very. Right. You need. I won't say harsh, but you need. You need a certain level of right. Controlling kind of environment that's going to. It's going to kind of get you on your feet so that you can start to get to a point of discernment. And it was really. It was really. It was a good experience for me to really see that and say, you know, I have my opinions, but, you know, about people and about organizations that, you know, first impressions. I. I'm a big believer that first impressions are often wrong, and I'm always careful to. Right. Make them for that very reason.
- [22:24]
Interviewer
So, yeah, no, that's. That's in and of itself pretty fascinating because it is. I remember a whole book about it, like Contact or something that I read years ago that just talked about the way we make these snap judgments and to trying to decide, you know, what is the value of those judgments and are they. Are they accurate? There's a whole big almost industry built around helping people think fast. And. But what you're describing here, even when I hear the word grace, I think about that too, is a bit of patience. Is that a fair.
- [23:01]
Derek Baker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And. And I'm. I'm not a. Not a naturally patient person. I'll tell you that I had my patients tested and it was negative.
- [23:11]
Interviewer
But
- [23:13]
Derek Baker
so, so patience does come hard to me often. And so it was, you know, but it's, but you're right. You're absolutely right. It is, that is a learned thing. And I think that you learn that over time that, you know, let this play out a little bit. Let this play out a little bit. See, just see how this, see how this goes. Don't make your, Reserve your judgments. I think the world would be a lot better place if we followed those three little words more consistently as people reserve your judgment.
- [23:40]
Interviewer
Well, I realize we just jumped way ahead into the Derek of today. And so there was a lot that happened between when you were seven and today. Again, you were traveling around, and it sounds like you made your way back to Grand Rapids and then went off to school. So I believe you were studying and I don't know where it was, but you were studying biology and chemistry, thinking about the university.
- [24:04]
Derek Baker
Is that right? At the time, Calvin College. And, and, and I had kind of a, just even getting there. I was not, I was not a great student when I was growing up. I mean, like I said, we went through some rocky years as a family, and, and it had an impact on family members. That had an impact on me. I was, I was a bit of a rebellious child. My, my stepbrother, who I, who I mentioned very quickly in passing. We were less than a year apart in age, and we were, we as the Baker boys. And that did not have a, like, good boy connotation. And now the, the thing with my brother is that he was, he was much better at getting caught than I was. And so he, I was always a little more careful and, you know, but, but, but he was a little, little more like, don't care. But so we, we kind of went through kind of those high school years and middle school years, you know, a little, A little kind of bouncing around. You know, I wouldn't say it was. I wasn't a good student. I was, I was involved in a lot of sports and stuff like that. But, you know, when, when college time came, I, I, I was getting okay grades in high school, but not from trying. Right. It was just, I just happened to do okay. I did pretty good. But I, you know, I, I had no, ironically, I had no sights on going to college. It was not, I was not going to go to college. I wasn't planning on going to college. I was actually thinking about business of my own. And so really.
- [25:40]
Interviewer
So what was, what was the image in your head, what did you imagine yourself doing?
- [25:45]
Derek Baker
A landscaping business? Actually, I had done some work on the landscaping side. I'd worked for some landscapers and I thought, you know, I could do this, I could, I could start my own landscaping business and get that going. And so that was kind of, you know, I, so, you know, and ultimately though, I needed to buy some equipment, right? And so I approached my dad about borrowing some money to buy some equipment because I had, you know, I had to buy a truck, which, you know, I didn't have money to do, and some other equipment. And, and so I, you know, I talked to him about buying, right, helping me, loaning me some money. He wasn't going to give money. He was never one to give money. And, but he, but about potentially, you know, loaning me some money so I could buy some equipment and get this, get this business going. And he, you know, he really, I remember he took me out to a really fancy restaurant called McDonald's and
- [26:41]
Interviewer
and
- [26:41]
Derek Baker
so we had to sit down. I think it was right, right. If I'm not mistaken, it was right when McDonald's was starting to serve breakfast. I think it was the first time like we had, we had gotten breakfast at McDonald's. And if my memory serves me, that was in the, you know, mid-80s, early-80s, and I might be, I might be confusing that, but I, I, I, I think it was a breakfast, but I remember it was McDonald's. I remember specifically where, which McDonald's. But, you know, and, and he was like, no, you've got to go to college, you've got to go to college. And you know, don't, don't, don't. You know, all along I dedicate my book to, you know, to my dad. And I think I don't remember the exact line. You know, somebody wants to read it, they can read it. But it's something to the effect of, you know, that, that, you know, my dad really pushed me to a career and purpose, right. And I was very much into, right, wanting to get into entrepreneurialism. And I said, you know, the beauty of it is how those two have now merged. And, and you know, the only thing I'm sad about is that he really didn't get a chance to see that how, right. I'm now the owner of a, you know, pretty, pretty decent sized business that I own and manage, you know, Dickerson Baker that does a lot of work around the country. And you know, I would say most folks would say is successful venture, but it's, it has very much in with purpose, right? And so the irony is that kind of intersection between purpose and entrepreneurialism kind of came, right. It took a lot of years to get there. And that's a. That's the beautiful thing. Him. He pushing me into kind of down these. Right down these other paths, right? So he was the one that was like. He basically bribed me to go to college. I said before, he wasn't one to give away. Give away money, but he basically bribed me and said, if you go, I will pay for your first year. And, you know, you know, and because he really wanted me to go, reminds me of a saying that my wife says, as an aside, you know, my kids are older. They're Right. They're all grown and out of the house. You go through these. You go through these periods in your. In your life with your kids, right? You have authority over them when they're younger, as they get a little older. You have to live within the context of influence. You don't. Right. And so it's like the most important thing is the influence you have in your kids, as my wife likes to say. But then there's bribery. And that was, you know, ultimately it came, you know, I. I think in honesty, looking back over that, right. I think it was the bribery that ultimately got me to.
- [29:25]
Jay Frost
Right.
- [29:26]
Derek Baker
If he. If he had just taken me out to that McDonald's and was like, you got to do this, Derek, and didn't put the money on the table, I probably wouldn't have done it. You know, in hindsight, in all honesty, I probably would have pursued the other route. But a. The fact that he was saying, I'm not going to loan you the money, but I'll give you money if you go to college and just try one year, right? He put it on the table, try one year. And if you, you know, if you don't want to. Right.
- [29:49]
Jay Frost
If you.
- [29:49]
Derek Baker
If it doesn't stick, if you don't like it, then we'll talk again, you know, about. About getting started in business. And so I did.
- [29:57]
Interviewer
And that was his school too, wasn't it? Wasn't it?
- [30:00]
Derek Baker
That was his alma mater. Absolutely. Yes, that was his alma mater. And so, you know, I'm sure he pulled some strings there. And, you know, because the reality was, I mean, enrollment was closed. This was, you know, I literally, I mean, that conversation was happening in, like, August. And so, you know, we got in the car and. And within three weeks, school was starting. I mean, it was that close to. Right, To. To. But he was like, I'm not gonna let my son, like, we're gonna do this. And I'm sure he made some calls behind the scenes and was like, if, if I can get him there, can we get him in? You know, it's kind of how it worked a lot that way back in those days. I mean, honestly, it still kind of does.
- [30:42]
Interviewer
But it's also funny what we know and what we don't know about what our parents are doing and thinking. We just.
- [30:50]
Derek Baker
Right.
- [30:50]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [30:51]
Derek Baker
I mean, you know, yeah. Especially, you know, now that you are a parent, you realize that even more so. Right. You think back on those times, you think, oh, yeah, there was a lot going on there behind the scenes that we weren't really privy to, nor did we see the full picture of.
- [31:04]
Interviewer
But yeah, so you went there and you were studying and you obviously stayed. You didn't go into landscaping after the first year.
- [31:14]
Derek Baker
That's right. And so interesting aside, which we can get down into, talk through, you know, a little more later. But a little tidbit was when I left for college, my folks, that's when they left for Africa. Okay. So in the book I share some stories about, right. My parents experience in Africa. But when I left for college, they decided, you know, what. Youngest kids out of the house and of all things, they. They went off to Africa on the mission field. But we'll return to that later.
- [31:45]
Interviewer
Oh, but that. That dovetails with the rest of your story. So they went. They went off there. And where in Africa or did they go again? Were they itinerant? Were they going to Nigeria?
- [31:55]
Derek Baker
So. So they were kind of itinerant because they. They joined basically they. They joined the Christian Reformed World Missions Board at the time, which is renamed now. They gave it some other, you know, kind of brand name that. I don't even know what it is. But those days it was very much just Christian Reformed World Missions Board or agency or something like that. And so, you know, they. They had. They were looking. They had identified a people group in Africa called the Fulani who were nomadic cattle herders. And so they needed somebody. You know, they were looking for missionaries to kind of try to.
- [32:35]
Jay Frost
Right.
- [32:35]
Derek Baker
To reach the Fulani. And folks. They had not had a lot of success with that up until then. And the reason why they were nomadic. And so this was, you know, you know, challenging. And their language was very challenging. They didn't have a lot of language resources. And so my dad had to learn the language. So his first year, right. Was. Was learning just basic. Right. Some basic Fulani. He was actually very good with Language and caught on pretty quick. I think he, even before going there, he spoke, I think, I think two or three languages at least. I know two for sure. I think three fairly fluently. I think he spoke French, Dutch and English and so. But, you know, he learned the Fulani language and they learned the culture and, and off to Africa they went, living in kind of the bush and following this, you know, nomadic tribe.
- [33:29]
Interviewer
And then meanwhile, you were finishing up school, I'm sure.
- [33:33]
Derek Baker
But I head off to. Right. So. So by the time they had. So they, they spent the. Most of the. My first year at college, most of that first year they were in training. They were in there before they had flown before they flew over to Africa. So. But, but again, they were in like they had moved out of the house where it was grown up. They'd sold the house. It was a process of selling the house, putting everything in storage, going through the training, getting ready to go, you know, all of that sort of stuff, learning the culture and all of that. So they were. But. So yeah, I'm, I'm at college. One of the interesting things again about that is when, when you're, when you're college students and your parents are off to Africa, it's a really different experience because, you know, it's like, oh, where am I going for Christmas? Right? What am I doing for Thanksgiving? What am I. You know, so it was, it's like again, alters your experience a lot because you don't have the same experience as other kids in school that are all going home for these holidays and other things. And so it just, you know, again, when you talk about kind of what's it like to, to grow up in those experiences, it, it's interesting. It's. It's different, you know. You know, and, and you know, I never grew up on the mission field, right. So I, I visited. I went to. To visit my folks on, on more than one occasion and spent some time there, but I wasn't a missionary kid per se. Right. And so, but, but that experience of being. Okay, I'm right. I'm a freshman sophomore at college and I don't have a home to go to, you know.
- [35:00]
Interviewer
What about your, your siblings? Yeah, with them.
- [35:04]
Derek Baker
And you know, my, my oldest sister kind of would take me in a bit, but. But it was kind of like, you know, yes, I ended up going more to, to friends places than I did to even my siblings places. There was a lot of conflict in my family around that time, you know, there was just a lot of conflict in my family. For, you know, any number of different reasons. And so wasn't somewhere where I was like, oh, yeah, I want to go. You know, I had a close relationship with my oldest sister who, you know, after my mom died, was kind of a pseudo parent, you know, pseudo maternal figure in my life. But, but even there, there was just a lot of things going on. She was, you know, she was struggling with some depression and some alcoholism and, you know, so, so going to visit there was always, you know, more than just a. More than just a visit.
- [35:55]
Interviewer
Wow. It does sound like a lot to contend with, because when you're a freshman and sophomore in college, you know, you, I don't know, I hardly knew who I was, let alone being able to fend for myself on every vacation and figure out how to pay tuition or something like that. That's a lot to contend with.
- [36:11]
Derek Baker
Yeah. I would say college was super formative for me to figure out a lot of that stuff, you know, to figure, you know, it wasn't just figuring out career. It wasn't just, you know, it was. It was figuring out faith. Right. It was figuring out, you know, I, I, I really wasn't on a good footing in so many different ways, you know, when I was, when, when, When I arrived at college, and I had to really figure out, you know, who I was in the context of me and not. Right. Well, here's something that most people don't know, and I'm gonna. This is, this is. This is kind of a secret between us, Jay. We're gonna, you know, won't tell. But, but my, My, My name is not Derek, okay? My, My full legal name is Frederick. And part of why it's spelled funny. Spelled funny is, Is that it is derived from Frederick, and it's, it's. You know, my dad's name was Frederick, and so I, When I was, When I was a kid growing up, most of the time, I was Freddie. Right. So most, Most people from my growing up days as a kid and even longer than when I was a kid, I mean, I was known as Freddie for a long time. And, you know, at some point, Freddie is kind of like, yeah, you know. You know, I mean, I'm a Carolina Hurricanes fan. Yay. Go Canes. They just won the Stanley cup. And they're Right. Their goalie is a guy by the name of Freddie Anderson. Right. Which is cool. So you do see sometimes people that go by Freddie at an older age. But, but most people don't. And so, but here's the thing. I didn't want to be Fred Baker. Because my dad was Fred Baker. Yeah. And I, I didn't want to be known. Right. And, and also. Right. I didn't know where my path was going to take me. I didn't know.
- [38:06]
Interviewer
Right.
- [38:07]
Derek Baker
And he was a, he was a well known person in. Right. In the, in the church circles and denominational circles that we grew up in. And he was a larger than life father figure. You know, you can imagine because you know when you're, you grow up in a church and you know, when you're, when your dad's a lead pastor of that church, you know, it's a right. They had a, they had a, they had a name for it in, in Dutch, the Christian Reformed Church kind of comes out of the Dutch. Right. Dutch heritage. And you know, they had this, this word is called Domine. And a lot of times they would call the pastor the Domine, which in Dutch basically means master. Right. It means more than a pastor. It means like he's the man in charge, he's the boss, he's the right. And, and, and that was kind of in, in that kind of denominational setting and that kind of, you know, in that setting that there was just a lot, a lot that was, that was tied up in being that in a church and you know, a lot of expectation, a lot of, you know, a lot of just, just a lot. And so I, you know, I, I didn't want to be known as Fred Baker. I certainly didn't want to be Freddie. The funny part was, you know, for a little while we were kind of known as Big Fred and Little Fred. But I, I outgrew him. I don't know if, you know, if you meet me in person. I'm 6 foot 4 and I'm, I am an imposing, you know, physical presence. And so as was he. But I, you know, I grew to be bigger than he did. And so it, it was when I left to college, I decided to, to go by Derek and I had a conversation with, you know, with the, you know, my sister in law and she was the one that was like. Because you know, it's like she is, you know, she was the one that convinced me just take the, you know, just start going by Derek instead of Fred. You know, it's the same name. And so, you know, when I landed at Calvin, you know, Calvin College, I literally landed with a different name than I left with. And so I was really trying to figure out who I was outside the context of this family. That. Right. Had been really so much the center of life for so Long because it was so tied up in church life. And we all went to a parochial school that was part of the church. Right. So, see, your school and your church, your evenings and your social life, and everything's kind of tied up in this stuff. And, you know, here I am arriving at this college where my dad was. Right. My dad's alma mater, where I grew up across the road from the original campus. Right. And, you know, he's known and, you know, so I'm like, I'm not going to show up there as Fred Baker. Right. I want to be me. And. And so. So I. I started going by Derek. And ever since I've been Derek, it also sounds like I still have a few people in my life that still call me Freddie, by the way.
- [41:00]
Interviewer
But it does sound like a point at which you just decided, I'm. I am who I am.
- [41:04]
Jay Frost
I am.
- [41:04]
Interviewer
You know, that that's a. That's a definitional moment for who you wanted to be.
- [41:09]
Derek Baker
I would say, I will be who I am. I arrived there as a definitional moment saying, I will be who I am. But I hadn't figured it out yet. Right.
- [41:20]
Jay Frost
Right.
- [41:20]
Derek Baker
It took me. Right. It probably took me, you know, a good five years to figure that out.
- [41:26]
Jay Frost
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Derek Baker
And I was questioning a lot of things, you know, career wise, what I'm going to do, you know, what I believe, you know, where, you know, just so many different things. So it was super formative years for me to figure, kind of figure those things out. When you grow up as I did, right. You just. You don't have a lot of footing. You don't have a lot of footing. You're moving from place to place. You're. You're, you know, different church congregations. And, you know, you. You do live in a glass house, but you can, you know, it's like so much who's, you know, who you are is who you're perceived to be. And then, of course, my mother dies, and we, you know, family conflict. So it's kind of like, you know, you. You really, you know, the analogy is it's like you go to a hockey game and you watch these coaches cross the ice and they're right in their dress shoes. And, you know, you could just tell they're. They're walking, like, you know, very, very carefully because they, you know, they don't have a good footing. And so they're very tentative and they're very. Right, unsteady. And, you know, all they want to do is get to the bench, you know, where they can. Where they can, they can get to the other side, but the, they always have to walk across the ice because whether they come in with the players and the players right off the, off the locker room side and, and that, that, you know, that was, that was kind of me at college. Right. It was me at college. It's like, okay, I'm, I'm on some slippery ice here. I'm not sure what my footing is, and I'm going to get there, I'm going to get to the bench on the other side of the rink. But, you know, getting there took a little bit.
- [42:56]
Interviewer
Now, after you got out, of course, your career has gone through, I guess, almost three very distinct phases. But did you have a sense about where you're going, where you were going to go at all? Because I have the impression from your book that, in fact, I think you used the word directionless, which is a pretty harsh self assessment. But you said that after graduation. But something that struck me in that passage was that you were referring to how you were also married. So those are two things that I don't usually think of in the same breath about being kind of trying to figure out where I'm going. But then I've, you know, sunk up my teeth into what I'm sure you were anticipating would be a lifelong relationship given your, you know, that's the only
- [43:40]
Derek Baker
thing I really felt certain of at that time. That was partly what. Right. It was like, found the love of my life.
- [43:46]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Derek Baker
Gonna follow her.
- [43:48]
Interviewer
And this was, and so you met her there.
- [43:50]
Derek Baker
So, so she was a year ahead of me. We, yeah, we met in school. She was also in biology. So we, you know, we kind of met through, you know, mutual friends. And she was. Right. She was a biology student. And, and the irony is she, she became a physician. I, you know, there were two things along the way that, you know, became apparent to me. I realized pretty, pretty, you know, far into the process that medicine was not for me. I think, you know, number one, I, you know, I, I didn't have the patience for it. I related before, but particularly courses like, I remember courses like zoology where, you know, these are weeder courses for people like me. Right. And it was, it was just something that was like, oh, you know, I just hate this stuff, you know, going through this rote memorization. And I, I'm not that kind of a learner. Right. And the reality for so much of medicine, you have to, you have to memorize a lot of stuff, you have to remember stuff, you have to write. You just. And I think what's interesting now with technology, you know, it's less important to, to have as much in your head as it was back in those days, you know, but you had to, you know, you had to be able to. To retain knowledge at a right pretty high level, but you also had to be. I mean, it takes a lot of work to, to do that kind of. To retain that kind of knowledge long term, to, to memorize that and remember all that stuff. So that was one factor of it. The other factor, though, that was really a key factor is I, I did a summer in Africa at, you know, I went to visit my folks and part of the deal was the mission board would pay for that when you had, you know, if the kids were under 25, they'd do, you know, they'd pay for you to go over a couple of times and spend some time. So one summer, if I remember right, it was after, perhaps after, between my sophomore and junior year, I think it was actually, and I went to Africa to spend time in a mission hospital. There was a, was a missionary hospital nearby. My folks weren't. Weren't working there, but very close to them. They had gotten to know a, A Filipino doctor who ran a mission hospital. It was pretty impressive, actually, that he had founded and was building and, and so they asked him if I could come and spend a summer kind of shadowing him and helping out. And so, you know, he was like, yeah, absolutely. So, so, so I went to stay. I went to Africa for a summer and spent that summer working at, with alongside this Filipino doctor at this hospital. Was an incredible experience, an absolutely incredible experience. And, you know, I show up there thinking I'm going to be doing, who knows what I'm going to be doing. I didn't think that I was going to be assisting him in C sections and surgeries and this and the other thing and getting on airplanes and flying into the bush to go right to, to, you know, to go, you know, some woman that was, you know, having a right, bad delivery or something like that or something, you know, pick up a patient and yeah, I mean, it was, it was amazing that, you know, and actually this is how my, this is, this is how my folks got to know him because the missionary agency where my parents lived and were worked for had an airplane and they would let, they would use that airplane, right, Particularly to go fly in and see.
- [47:18]
Interviewer
Right.
- [47:19]
Derek Baker
Was part of the strategy also for this nomadic tribe to, you know, part of it was, was, was, you know, you have to fly some places, right, to try and meet up with them, but they also use that airplane for, you know, as a medical mission. So they. If the, you know, if. If they got a shortwave radio from somebody else that, hey, somebody's really in trouble here, they would fly out there, land at a right on a mud strip, and. And the doctor would.
- [47:48]
Interviewer
Would.
- [47:49]
Derek Baker
Would go.
- [47:49]
Interviewer
And.
- [47:50]
Derek Baker
And so, I mean, I went on some of those trips and it was. It was an amazing experience. But I'll tell you what, it also show told me I'm not cut out for this. Right? I am not cut out for this. And it was. Honestly, it seems. It seems silly, but it was the body fluids, Jay, the smells, the body.
- [48:12]
Interviewer
No, I mean, if you've never experienced that before.
- [48:15]
Derek Baker
Yeah, but most. I mean, for me, it was like, to this day, right? So it's like people. Normally people can get used to that.
- [48:24]
Jay Frost
I couldn't.
- [48:24]
Derek Baker
I just couldn't get used to it.
- [48:26]
Interviewer
And your wife is a doctor?
- [48:28]
Derek Baker
My wife's a doctor. And she'll. She'll come home with these stories sometimes. And the kids, the kids always love the stories, but I'm like, guys, not at the dinner table. I can't. You know, and so it's always kind of the fun thing. Dad can't take those. Those stories. He doesn't. You know, I mean, it's like just the ick factor. The. It's like, nope, I. I will find a job that does not involve somebody else's body fluids very much. Thank you very much.
- [48:54]
Interviewer
And. And you did. So you did. You did finish school, I guess you obviously didn't go back to medicine, but that again, was.
- [49:01]
Derek Baker
I come back from that trip with this moment of I've been. I've been trying to work. I've been working hard towards this goal of medical school and realizing I don't want to do it. And what I also realized in the introspection of that, that I made that decision for all the wrong reasons. Right. I made that decision because, a. It was kind of, you know, pleased my father. It was like, hey, it's a, you know, make good money. It's a status thing. It's like, I'm going to be a doctor. And I didn't really think through, do I really want that? Is that the fit for me? Is that something like, you know, and it wasn't. And again, by the time I actually figure that out now I'm entering my junior year of college right now. What do you do now? What do you do? You know, it's like, okay, what am I, you know, what I'M you know, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm doing a dual major. And I was literally majoring both in chemistry and biology, so not a, not a biochemistry major. It was a biology major and a chemistry major. I was getting both, right. Big right, With a pre med kind of, you know, they didn't have a pre med was not a major. It was a track. So you had to have certain classes on the pre med track and certain experiences and stuff like that. And so here I am, it's like, okay, I'm entering my, now I'm entering my junior year. What am I going to enroll in? What am I going to take? But, you know, it was all kind of sorted out before. Now I got to start thinking about some other stuff. And again, still, the footing's not there yet, right? I'm still trying to figure it out. But that's around the time when I met who is now my wife. And you know, that. That kind of changed things a little bit. That changed the trajectory, that changed the. Right, that, that changed a lot of things. And the irony is I did a lot of dating in college. When I got to this particular point in my life, I had stopped dating because I didn't know what I was going to do, right? So it's like, okay, I'm, I'm pre med. I got this tracked out. I can date and everything else, but it's like, I have no idea what I'm doing now. I don't know. Right? So it's like, I'm, I don't want to date right now because, you know, you know, the, the whole dating scene, particularly in those days in college, kind of was centered around, oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? What are you. Right? It's like, hey, is this guy marriage material? Is this person marriage material? Especially, you know, when you're going to Christian college like that. Yeah, I was like, I don't know, you know, I have no idea.
- [51:35]
Interviewer
Well, this apparently didn't, didn't scare your, your, your lady off. So.
- [51:41]
Derek Baker
Right.
- [51:42]
Interviewer
What was the, what was the attraction? How did you find, you know, kind of heart for each other when you were trying to figure out who you were and she knew exactly where she was going?
- [51:51]
Derek Baker
Yeah, I think she felt sorry for me.
- [51:57]
Interviewer
I'm sure there was more to it than that.
- [51:59]
Derek Baker
So here's the funny story. So, funny story about how we meet and we kind of knew each other casually through parties and through classes and, you know, labs, you know, biology labs and stuff like that. I had a roommate who Had a crush on a girl. And he was kind of shy, didn't really know.
- [52:19]
Jay Frost
Right.
- [52:20]
Derek Baker
He was kind of like, okay. So he says to me, he says, will you double date? And I'm like, I'm not dating anybody. He said, hey, what about her roommate, right. Mary Nell. And so just as it happened, and I had. I had kind of met Mary now, and we had. Right. We had, you know, we had, you know, we had good connections and we. But I didn't really know her much at all. But so I was like, okay, that's sure. You know, and. And. But it was. Right. It was very kind of. It was very kind of happenstance, you know, to say, okay, yes. And the funny part is we mixed up the time somehow. The times got mixed up when I was, you know, we, you know, in the, in the communications between the different people. And I stood her up.
- [53:21]
Interviewer
Oh.
- [53:23]
Derek Baker
Because she was waiting for me to pick her up, and I had the wrong time. And so. Right. And then. And then.
- [53:29]
Interviewer
I don't want to assume anything here, but this might have been pre, you
- [53:32]
Derek Baker
know, smartphones was definitely pre. Smartphones. Pre Any of that.
- [53:36]
Interviewer
Right.
- [53:37]
Derek Baker
And. And so she was kind of waiting for me and I didn't show up. Right. And so she was kind of like, okay. And, you know, and then when I real, you know, when I realized it later that I messed it up, I was like, okay. And so I actually gave her a call. I'm like, hey, sorry about that. You know, didn't. Didn't really, you know, I wasn't. Because it was kind of one of those dates where it was kind of like, you know, we were going to double date. It was kind of like it wasn't, you know, and I really wasn't into dating at that time because of where I was at in my life. And then she says to me, do you want to still go out? And that, you know, in that day. Right. That you generally didn't do that as a, you know, as a girl, particularly in the, in the, in the community where we. Right. That was just not something you did in a pretty conservative Christian community at a Christian college back in the 1980s, you know, and so immediately that was like, oh, wow, you know, you know, there's something different. Right. And. And I always like independent thinkers. I always like people that kind of challenge the status quo. It's in my bones. It's part. You can read that in the book when I, you know, that I wrote. And so it's kind of like, you know. Yes. And so we, we, you Know, we went to, we went to Chi Chi's restaurant in Grand Rapids. If you grew up in Lowell, you probably remember Chichi's, which is the old, you know, chain back then of, you know, and they had these massive margaritas that were bowl sized, right? And so, so we have, you know, we're sitting at a little round table at the bar, waiting for our table, you know, high top round table. And we both have these like big bowls of margaritas. And I was, I was as nervous as could be for some reason. And I'm a cool cucumber kind of guy. And I was just so nervous. I was like never nervous on dates. It's like, you know, but I was super nervous. And you know, so we're having this conversation. Well, I spill my big bowl of margarita. Big bowl of margarita. It's just spilled. And I mean, a mess. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. One of these big bowls of margarita right at Chi Cheese. It's like these, you know, and I knock it over and it's client. It just makes a mess. I think it broke, of course, making a spectacle, making an impression on the first date. So this, this is our first date, right? And so second date, we go to a Chinese restaurant, okay. And I'm wearing like a yellow polo shirt, you know, and. Or something with sweet and sour sauce. What do I do? I spilled a sweet and sour sauce. Now I'm wearing red sweet and sour sauce all up and down my yellow polo shirt. This is two dates in a row. I'm thinking to myself, what is going on with me? Like this, Like, I don't, I. This is not me, right? And, and. But that was it. I was, I was captured. I was captured. My heart was captured. I was right. I was, I was like this, this nervous, right? Obviously have settled down, but, you know, it's just, you know, she just, you know, was love of the love of my life sort of deal. So we're still together all these years later. You know, we're, we're. We've been married almost 40 years now and have, you know, three kids together. But. Yeah, but as I said, she was a year ahead of me and so she was off to. And by the way, she's Canadian. She grew up on a farm and in, in Canada. I share a little bit in the story, you know, about her dad. Remember if you read the book, you can tell, you know, the story I shared about him and the crops and you know, as a farmer and grew up on a dairy farm in, in Canada, So you, something you can relate to is, you know, I mean Southwestern Ontario Dairy farm is not that different from a mid, you know, West Michigan dairy farm in a lot of ways. But you know, so she's, you know, she's graduating and she's heading back to Southwestern Ontario to start a graduate degree. She got into, you know, University of Western Ontario. So at that moment I, I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm majoring in. I don't know what I'm. Right. So I made a crucial decision. I'm like, I'm going to finish my last year at the University of Western Ontario. So. Oh, off I went and I transferred to the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario and was like, you know, I'm going to follow this girl because I know what happens with long distance relationships and I'm kind of like in love here and so I don't know what else I'm going to do. So off I went and so I, you know, so that was, you know, we weren't married at that point, right? We were, we were, we were dating and you know, in a committed relationship. But I just decided to follow her to London, Ontario.
- [58:40]
Interviewer
I'm just trying to imagine what your father was thinking at this point. I know that you had, you were establishing your own life there, but this was his school. He convinced, convince you to go to school there in the first place. And then there you are following this girl to Ontario. Did you get any kind of clap back from the family about, about this, this new choice?
- [59:03]
Derek Baker
A little bit, but not a lot, you know. You know, but you gotta understand is my folks are living in Africa. We didn't have cell phones, we didn't have email, we didn't have. Right, so you wrote letters, right? And then you waited weeks to get a letter back. I mean and, and, and you know, the only time and if we had to call. So when, you know, my sister passed away when, when my folks were on the mission field and you know, we had to get in touch with them and that's sort of an emergency situation. We, you know, you have to, we had to call the mission board. Then the mission board had to shortwave, right? You know, shortwave radio to their headquarters in, in Africa. And then they had to make arrangements for. Right, yeah, folks didn't have a phone. I mean there was no phones where they lived. So they had to, right, get in touch with, right, the folks, they had a headquarters there where the plane was piloting and so they would radio There and then. Right. And it was like, okay, my folks had to travel hours to get somewhere where they could make an overseas call so that we could find. And we had to. It was all right. I mean, people don't realize what, you know, that wasn't that long ago. Right. That wasn't that long ago. You know, so, so it wasn't like conversation with dad over dinner. Hey, dad, I'm right. It was, it was.
- [60:26]
Interviewer
Right.
- [60:26]
Derek Baker
So it was, it was kind of like they were over there living their life, you know, following this tribe. And his, his biggest concern at that point was, well, gee, my, my son's transferring college. You know, he was, he was in a different place, in a different life. And the difference, you know. Yep.
- [60:42]
Interviewer
So you obviously, you went up there, you finished school. This is where I know you in the book. You talk about this about then kind of almost stumbling into that, that development position and that beginning this, these phases of your career working within fundraising, which I guess you've already said in this conversation about finding that tie to the rest of what you already knew about living with purpose. But then of course, doing the consulting, which was kind of a somewhat different animal, but obviously doing that successfully as well to finally having this business today. So if you were kind of looking at that whole landscape of that. I know that's taking a lot of years into account, but what's the through line between all of that? Because that's something you've stuck with from the beginning once you, once you found this.
- [61:38]
Jay Frost
Yeah.
- [61:39]
Derek Baker
So I called, you know, coming up, you know, when I landed in, you know, when I finished college, you know, I, I landed a job basically at a trust company. And it, it kind of, you know, I also started a. Right, I got, I got licensed in real estate. So it's like, okay, I'm gonna, right, I'm gonna do real estate sales and I'm gonna be working at this trust company. And, you know, and actually did pretty well. I, you know, I. Oh, okay. I was, I was closing deals on the, on the, on the real estate side. I was doing a little commercial work and, you know, I was, I was, I was on the one hand getting a full time salary for the day job and I was doing the weekend thing with real estate and I had just, I had just closed the deal at that time, you know, on a little apartment building that I had hustled my way around to landing this. Right. Landing this thing and working it and selling it where the commission on that deal was more than my whole annual salary on. Right.
- [62:34]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [62:35]
Derek Baker
On the.
- [62:37]
Jay Frost
And.
- [62:37]
Derek Baker
And right around that time is when that phone call came. Right. Actually, the letter came was a letter from my mother about, basically, hey, your dad is sick. Right? And so that started that process again of, okay, we got to get a phone call set up. We got it, right. But the letter had come. We. You know, and so. So long story short, it was like, okay, who's. Who's gonna. Right. Who's gonna make that trip? My brother was a plant manager with General Motors at the time, and they were retooling. My oldest brother, he was. He would have been the one to go, but he was in the middle of retooling for a model change. He was like, I cannot go. Derek, can you go? So I'm like, yeah, I'll go. And so I flow. Flew off to Africa. And, you know, I share that story in. In the book about, you know, bringing my. Bringing my. My. My dad back. We went to the Netherlands first, and that was where he was diagnosed and then was diagnosed with glioblastoma, which is a really bad form of brain cancer, basically. And, you know, I was. I was. I guess I was 21, 22, something like that. And so we ended up taking them home with us because they have no home to go to. Right? They. All their stuff's in storage. There's. They have nowhere to go.
- [63:49]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [63:49]
Derek Baker
So it's like, well, you know, can't stay in the Netherlands. Right. Can't go back to Africa. You're coming home with us. So, you know, we medi. Vacuum right in my. My mom, my stepmom, you know, back. Back to live with us. And at the time, living with us was in. Was. Was in Canada.
- [64:10]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [64:11]
Derek Baker
You know, and so we're living there, and we found. We helped him find a place and, you know, get him settled. And a few months later, he passes away. But that was a period of time, again, where I'm doing some soul searching, I'm doing some introspection. And again, he's like, derek, you know, don't get so caught up into the business thing here. You know, Purpose, purpose, purpose. Right? So again, we're having those conversations, and now it's more important to him than ever because he knows he's going to die, right? He knows he's going to die. And he's just wanting. Right. He's just wanting his. Right. His kids to have that sense of mission and purpose and service and. And at that point, you know, I'm like. I like what I'm doing. But then my phone rings and I get a call from a. A friend of mine who I know through church. He's a younger guy like me. He's an attorney, though, and we had some clients in common, and we were both involved in church together. He's a little older than I am. He's got kids at this. At this Christian school, and his. He says, hey, I'm on the search committee of this right for. For a development director for. Right. For the school where my kids go, and we think you'd be great. You know, would you consider this job? And I'm like, if my dad had not been sick at that time, if I had not gone through that experience, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't have even thought a moment, right? But because of that. Because of that, I was like, yeah, sure, I'll explore it. I'll. I'll hear you out, right? Well, hearing him out, right, turned into this career I've been in for 36 years. You know, that was my step into fundraising, my very first step into fundraising. When I took the job, I didn't even know I was getting into. And, you know, in our last conversation, I shared some about, you know, the only person that I had any connection to in the fundraising world when I took this job was the fundraiser for the missionary agency where my parents were missionaries. And so I called him up, and I'm like, I just took this fundraising job, and you're a fundraiser. Can you. Right? And he was the one that was like, hey, you know what you got to do? You got to go to Chicago. You got to get. Right. I know Jerry where. I don't know if he was on a. They were on some association or something. And so, you know, we know Jerry is a legend today, but back then, he wasn't a legend. He was just a fundraising guy like the rest of us, who was, you know, putting out some good stuff and was developing his name. And so. But he was doing those training courses, and. And. And so he signed me up for that. And because Jerry knew Dirk a little bit, he agreed to do some coaching, right? Since some. Some. Some. Some coaching. If I came to Chicago, right, He would, like, give me some. He'd give me some time, and so I would traipse out there, right? But it was. That was how I. That's how I learned the craft. And to me, there's so. So, right. Whether you call it divine providential, serendipitous. But when.
- [67:32]
Interviewer
When.
- [67:33]
Derek Baker
As that path kind of opened up and what. What I became so aware of, Jay, was that this was Such an intersection, like, of what I was kind of good at and what, right. So, so, so just immediately this, this field that I had never heard of before in my life, right? I'm like learning it and doing it and learning from people that turn out to be the masters and, and, and, and then putting it into practice and just loving it and, and, and every, you know, just every bit of it. And that's when I really found my footing in life, to be honest, right. When I found that it was kind of my sense of purpose, my sense of calling. And like you said, my, my career has kind of gone through several chapters, you know, as time has gone on. That first chapter was learning the craft, right? And then being that practitioner. And so I, I, I, I, I, I left that original job and you know, once my wife finished her graduate degree, we went, we moved back to, to the US and actually went to Chicago for, you know, for a position and then, and then ended up back in Grand Rapids. And so we moved again when we, you know, when we started our family. So when our first was born, that's when we moved back to Grand Rapids. So we spent a few years in Chicago. So I first job, you know, in London at that Christian school as a development director, went to Chicago and took a job with an organization there, and we moved to Grand Rapids where, you know, after our, after we started a family. And so I spent about 10 years as a practitioner, as a fundraiser in varying levels of. Right. And started to, you know, oversee a team and kind of progressively, you know, move up in the world. And so at, you know, in Grand Rapids, at the organization I was working at, we had hired a consultant to help us with a, with a campaign. And, and at the end of that campaign, that consultant was like, hey, come work for me. And that started the next chapter of my life, which was getting into consulting, right? And so that was a completely new thing. And so I, you know, long story short, I spent the better part of 10 years in consulting and, and I ended up leaving that original firm for a number of different reasons. He, he, he had, he got sick and sold the firm. And I ended up transitioning to a different one. But, and then, you know, you know, towards the, about, you know, it's probably about 10 years, not quite 10 years, but about 10 years in consulting. I had the opportunity to. One of the folks at the consulting firm where I was working was retiring and I had the opportunity to, to buy in. They offered me to buy his shares and buy in. And at that point I really made A decision, you know, I love this work. And around that time as well, my wife had made a shift because she had originally started out in medical research. So her original degree and original work was in medical research and the position that she took in Chicago was actually to do medical research. And so she did a lot of years in immunology research and laboratory research and then ended up then going, saying, I'm going to go to medical school. So. Right. Applied for medical school when our kids were a little older and, and then. So she had finished now. So we're at the point now where she's finished her medical degree and she's now starting actual practice. She's done all of her training and we're still living in Grand Rapids, Michigan at that point. And she, you know, she basically says, you know, hooks up with a recruiter to start looking for full time gigs. And she's like, honey, I am so done with Michigan winner. If you, you know, I'm heading down south, you're welcome to come with me, but we're not doing west Michigan winners anymore. And if you grew up in west Michigan, you know what I mean, with west Michigan winners, They're right. Yeah, they're awful. They're not. Yeah, they're, they're, you know, the worst of it was what she hated the most about them was the sun doesn't really shine for months during winter lake effect. It's just gray and it's not awful cold, but it's damp and the cold gets in your bones. The sun doesn't shine. You get this heavy snow, this wet snow. She hated it, right. She's Canadian, right. So she was like, can we please go south? And you know, our oldest was getting ready to start high school. Our second was getting, you know, was starting middle school. So they were both transitioning schools. Our son was young enough, you know, he was, he was only 5, so he was young enough that, you know, so, so we moved down to North Carolina at that point. And so, so this is the point at which I'm being offered this opportunity to buy into the firm. Same point, we're moving, right. My wife wants to move down to North Carolina. And now I had conversations with the firm about. Right. Because they worked nationally at that point. But I decided, you know what, so this the cool part of this again, it's just, you know, it's the path, it's that, it's that journey. And the cool part of it is I was ready to start my own thing. And this was 2010 and you know, we're moving down to North Carolina and I'm being offered this thing. But at the same time, now my wife has done her training and all of a sudden she's going to make a six figure income, she's going to have health benefits. She'd been in training, she'd been for years. Like I was supporting her through school and stuff. There was no possibility I could start my own gig, you know, but it all kind of came together again. And so that's when, that's when I started my own firm. And at the time the firm was called Keystone Consulting and it was actually, you know, intended, you know, it was, it was originally Keystone Major Gift Consulting because my intent was I really want to focus on helping organizations, particularly non profits, get better at raising money, particularly from major donors. And so that was, that was all, has always been kind of my passion and my, my, my, my, you know, my sense of calling. And so, so we, I left the firm, we packed up and moved to North Carolina and I hung a shingle and started my own gig. And you know, and so that's kind of how Dickerson Baker kind of got started. I acquired Clark Dickerson's firm in 2012, which was kind of, you know, a great opportunity. And that's really, that's when Keystone Consulting became Dickerson Baker in 2012. But that founding moment was really in 2010. And we've, you know, we've grown like crazy since then and it's been a fun journey.
- [74:16]
Interviewer
Almost 15 years.
- [74:17]
Derek Baker
Yeah. Yep. And, and now I feel like I'm entering the fourth chapter. Right.
- [74:23]
Interviewer
And what does that look like? And what does it look like ahead?
- [74:26]
Derek Baker
So I, you know, I turned 60 last year or last, last April, this year. I turned 60 in April. And it was fun. We had, you know, and, and, and I, you know, it's not, it's just a number in a way, but, but it is, I think, I think it causes you to think about a lot of different things. And, and the firm has kind of gotten to the point where, you know, we started a fundraising agency and I share this story and it really, you know, that's a big part of what the book is about, is the why of that, what we're trying to do there. I hired Andrew Olson, who I think, you know Andrew, I think a lot of folks, some of your listeners may know Andrew, but I hired Andrew to start that agency division and it's, it's, it's gone amazingly well. And so I really made a decision, you know, in terms of how I like to manage Anyways, I like to, you know, I like to hire good people and let them do what they're right, let them do their life's best work. My mission at Dickerson Baker, I've written this down is basically to, you know, to provide the best possible platform for exceptionally talented people to do their life's best work. And, and, and that's what I love to do. I like to have people, right. I'll build the platform if I can recruit exceptionally talented people to come in that are right, that are aligned and that share kind of the, the, you know, the vision and the purpose. I want to get out of the way and let them do their, do their best work. And so this past January, I promoted Andrew to be president of the firm. I had been president and CEO. So now we reorganize. We also reorganize kind of a lot of our leadership structure. But to say, you know what, other people are going to run the day to day and I've got a really good leadership team, Andrew's got a great leadership team. And so, you know, really that allows me now to shift from being nose down, tail up every day managing the day to day business, which I've been doing for much of the last 15 years, to really start thinking about things like, hey, teaching and speaking and, and, and it really is this passion of mine is centered on this thing that we're calling a better way. It's about, you know, and really the better way is not even just about a better way to fundraise. It's really about just finding a better way to do the things that we do in the nonprofit sector in particular. You know, so it's like started with fundraising because that's kind of been my whole career. It's like things are not working the way that they ought to. Things are not, you know, I've been saying lately, it's like, it's not just that fundraising is harder than it used to be. Fundraising is harder, feels harder than it ought to be. And especially when you really believe that people are generous natured at heart, they want to give, they want to help. But we've kind of gotten misaligned in our industry about, on so many different things. And that's all in the book. And that's another. Right, that's a whole other conversation. But my kind of sense of calling and mission and purpose right now is really to be all about leaning into other people and the industry and trying to help us get better, help us, you know, I mean, and a lot of that is looking at, you know, where are we stuck? Because I do think we're stuck in many different ways. We have research on that. You know, we're. You know, we're. We're stuck in a lot of. In a lot of ways in. In the nonprofit space. And some of why we're stuck, I firmly believe, is because we're leaning too heavily on kind of old habits, old traditions, on old assumptions, and the ground has shifted so fast. And I think this is one of the things that nonprofits are really struggling with today. You and I have been around a little bit, right. I've been doing this work for a lot of years. I feel like looking back on my career, the pace at which things are changing today is so much faster than they ever have before. The change that has happened, the fundamental changes, and now with AI in the last five years, and it's really, you know, looking back at Covid, there was tremendous change that came out of COVID and then AI layered on top of that the Internet age and all that sort of stuff. It's like the pace of change has gone so fast, and nonprofits by nature are not nimble. Right. We're not nimble. And it almost seems like the pace of change has so outpaced. Right. That. That it's really creating a lot of challenges. And, you know, we've done surveys on this. It's like, there's remarkable, remarkable consensus in the nonprofit world that we need to make changes, and there's actually remarkable consensus about the direction we need to go on a lot of these changes. The challenge is. Is getting those changes made fast enough and implementing those changes and. And getting all of those pieces and parts put together. That's the challenge. And. And so. And it's creating. It's really putting a lot of strain in the system, and it's. It's showing itself in things like burnout rates and. Right. The challenges that we're having financially. And. And it's just, you know, that's the environment that we're in today. And. And. And that's what I'm really working on speaking into and. And talking about. About. About, you know, really, it's like there's a better way to do things than we're doing them today and without going
- [79:45]
Interviewer
through all of that, because people can read about it and think about it, but there's probably something like a central piece of that that's driving you, the change that you want to see. What is that? If you were to put a label
- [80:01]
Derek Baker
on it, I think that at its basic essence Right. Fundraising is not fundraising, it's philanthropy, right? When you think about the actual definition of philanthropy, and I think that we are wired in such a way that whether it's from our creator or otherwise, that we want to help our fellow persons, right? And when we really understand, when we can be empathetic and understand, right. We, we are wired in such a way that we are, right, A, like a generous creature. And we want to help and we want to help folks. And that, you know, when, when you hear those stories and when you, the natural thing that people have is what can I do to help? Right? When you make that human connection, what can I do to help? And that's what philanthropy is all about, right? It's all about helping other people. It's all about making the world a better place. It's all about, you know, that's what it's about in essence. And so the, you know, there's a beautiful thing to that. But so much of kind of the way we do fundraising today, we've lost touch with that. It's, it's really been, it's more about managing audiences and, and all of the things that has that. So the irony, the great irony is that, you know, on the consumer marketing side, our colleagues over there are realizing that the ground has shifted. We need to move more towards a relationship based kind of marketing system, et cetera. And there's so much evidence of that. And on the fundraising side, we've moved down this path towards kind of, you know, consumer marketing kind of mentality and transactional fundraising, that we are more disconnected from the human experience in fundraising today than ever before. And I think that that's affecting a lot of people because it's the reason that you get up to do this work every day, right? Is that reward, that sense of purpose? But if you're not seeing that sense of purpose anymore in your work and you're just doing more, more, more, we're going to lose more and more people, but we're also losing kind of the very definition of what this industry is about. And so my push is to move us back to kind of much more relationship based, relationship based fundraising, more personal connection. And here's the incredible irony, and I think it's also the biggest risk that we face. This new technology called AI is giving us the opportunity to do that in ways that we never could before, that we can scale high touch philanthropy in a way that we never, never could before. We can scale relational philanthropy and rational fundraising in ways we never could before. But I think, you know, we're at this turning point in how we use AI. If we use AI to replace the human connection, I think our industry is in big, big trouble. I think, I think we're just going to speed up the erosion. And it's, you know, there's a new study out that I just actually posted on today on LinkedIn about it. You know, they did a study that showed two things. One is AI is actually more persuasive than people are, right? Including professional fundraisers. So all of the training that I gotten over my career, all of the experience that I have, an AI bot is actually more persuasive than I am. They've showed this in the study. But what they also showed is that when people find out that it is an AI bot, all of a sudden that all falls apart, right? And so it's kind of like, yes, we can be technically better over here, but is it really better if it undermines the very thing which is the fundamental trust relationship that's right out there? And so to me, the whole thing is about how do we use AI to optimize all of the work that we do in the spaces between the human connection that happens on either end of that chain. And the more we can do that, to scale the numbers of people that we can connect with to make it more efficient. But as long as there's a human on one side and a human on the other side, I don't care how much AI gets used in between. But if there's a human on one side and an AI on the other side, and the human doesn't know that's AI on the other side in particular, I think we're in big trouble.
- [84:28]
Interviewer
A lot of our conversations started with a couple things. One was about you really wanting to be an entrepreneur, determine your own destiny. I mean, from the landscaping business until this business you started 15 years ago or bought into, but now it's definitely your business. And the other was about this kind of pastoral element and all of it, not just at home, but I mean, what you saw from the very earliest age. And when you're talking about some of this, I don't know, I hear almost an echo of that kind of pastoral way of thinking about these things. Am I, am I hearing you correctly?
- [85:02]
Derek Baker
Yeah, I think so. I, you know, I am very much a relationship based person. I, you know, hospitality is one of my gifts. People that know me love that. I love to host, I love to sit down and have conversations, I love to write, connect with people personally. And so I absolutely, that's that's the. That is. I think that, for me, is what I've always loved about. Right. This career is. It's the opportunity to just connect with amazing people and to get a sense of their heart and their purpose and to help them line that up. Right. I. I think one of the things, you know, that struck me the most of, you know, my fundraising career, so one of the, you know, one of the largest gifts of my career up until then, that I had ever been involved in soliciting, right. Kind of went down in such a way that I was instrumental in. In kind of closing that gift in terms of bringing that gift to the table. And when I thanked that couple at the end of that process, when I was like, thank you so much for. Right. Investing in this, you know what they said to me? They said, no, thank you, Derek, because, right.
- [86:16]
Interviewer
We.
- [86:16]
Derek Baker
We were right. You kind of helped us find the place. We. We knew we were going to give this money, but we were struggling to figure out where and in what way. And. And. And this was a God thing, is what they said, right? You. They literally said, this is an answer to prayer. And. And it was like, wow, right? Wow. Does that ever flip the script, right? And so having that opportunity to. To work with, right. Folks like that and just kind of help kind of guide them into a situation. And in that particular case, this was a Teen Challenge center, and this was a family that had lost a child to addiction, and they were help. You know, they were going to help kind of get this right. Their funds were instrumental in getting this particular Teen Challenge center started in the Greater Toronto area. And, you know, they. They had a certain amount of. They had. Right. They had sold some property. They were very wealthy folks, but had some property, and they were looking where they wanted to donate this. And it was like. It was like the perfect thing to. Something to do to honor their right, the child that they'd lost, but also to help other families and. Right. For them. It was so meaningful for them to kind of give back in that way. And it was. Was an amazing experience, right. But it was really clear to me, right? This is. This is. This is so about the best. Fundraising is always about human relationships.
- [87:53]
Jay Frost
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about Derek Baker and his work@DickersonBaker.com our thanks to our sponsor, Ever True, the global leader in donor engagement and fundraising intelligence, helping nonprofits find, engage, and inspire their supporters. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor, courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise all part of the Philanthropy Mastermind series. Until next time, I'm Jay Frost.
- [88:32]
Interviewer
Thanks for joining me.