Interviewer (6:07)

Going to Buffalo from Queens. If Queens was your whole life before that was it. I mean, had you gone anywhere?

Sharon Kitrozer (6:14)

Yes, we had done some. This is like very few of my friends know this. We owned it two camper and we'd go camper in until my little sister was born when I was 14. And you know, we'd go locally. We didn't. My Grandparents, the MIT graduate, my grandmother were big travelers. And as a child, my grandmother once said when she got off the boat from the Ukraine, which was Russia back then, she said her mother held her one sister's hand, her older sisters, and she held, held, and her mother held her youngest sister's hand. And she said, being the middle child means you have no one's hand to hold.

Interviewer (6:57)

Oh, my.

Sharon Kitrozer (6:58)

Oh, I know. She was so extraordinary. So I was a chubby teenager and my grandmother only saw perfection in me. So they took me traveling. They took me when I was like 12 on a fancy cruise. And then, then they took me to South Africa.

Interviewer (7:16)

Oh, wow. Okay.

Sharon Kitrozer (7:18)

Yeah.

Interviewer (7:18)

So Buffalo wasn't that far. Really.

Sharon Kitrozer (7:22)

Here's what I didn't understand. You grew up with this really poor attitude in New York that you are smarter and better at everything because you're from New York. And I got that beaten out of me, not just figuratively. Within the first days of college, I realized that my first impression was everybody ate fried food and shopped at Walmart. I guess it was Kmart back then, but yes. And I was like, I'm there three months and I go, it's so awesome. Everyone eats fried food and gay mart. Everybody's just who they are and eat what's taste, you know. It was just such a different world than I had experienced. And my last semester of high school, I had worked a high school internship, really like, special, special opportunity. In the early days of hbo, I was in the studios in like the first two years. And so I was ready to do the world by myself because my parents just let me hop on a train and go to Manhattan when I was 17. Actually. I also realized this is how mental illness, these things pop into your head. I thought everybody at 15 got on the subway and went to a midnight movie, a Rocky Horror Picture Show. It wasn't until I was a grown up and I had my kids, I go, they let me go on a train when I was 15 for a midnight movie. Oh, my goodness.

Interviewer (8:56)

So it sounds like life at home was. Because you didn't have a name for it. I guess it was just kind of crazy town. Unpredictable.

Sharon Kitrozer (9:06)

Was so unpredictable. And, you know, some of the things stick in your head. And now that we're all very much adults, my sister, who's much younger, has just turned 50. She'll be so happy I said that in public. But she. We've all learned that a lot of stuff we thought was odd was really pretty. Or as my sister said, like my. After my grandmother died, my mother Bought seven fur coats. Yeah.

Interviewer (9:35)

Wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (9:35)

And my sister said one day she woke up and realized once we had the diagnosis that all of the stuff we thought was funny. Haha. Not so funny. Haha. You know. So yes, we had it hard in high school, especially after my sister was born, just strictly because a little bit of attention we got went away. Now with that said I was. Because when my mother was diagnosed, this was my big idea. We paid a therapist to explain the ground rules of borderline personality disorder.

Interviewer (10:13)

To explain them to the whole family, I guess.

Sharon Kitrozer (10:15)

Or just the three sisters.

Interviewer (10:17)

The three sisters. Okay.

Sharon Kitrozer (10:19)

So that we would still remain speaking to one another because divide and conquer is a big thing. So we all had bouts of not really getting along. Now we're going on a cruise in two weeks and that's because it's conscious.

Interviewer (10:33)

How far apart are the three of you?

Sharon Kitrozer (10:36)

My older sister and I are three and a half years. And my mother announced she was pregnant with my little sister Alana when we were. I was 13 and Michelle was just as she now she was pregnant with my oldest sister's sweet 16 party with some.

Interviewer (10:53)

Yeah. So then you finally had this sit down session where you were getting the ground rules for what to do. When did that happen? Were you off at school or what? When?

Sharon Kitrozer (11:04)

No, I. My first. Well, my first therapy that was about me, not situational. My best friend's father died in front of us when we were 15 and my mother knew it was completely out of my how to handle zone. And she was in a moment of great mothering, got me to see someone because I didn't understand death because I was 15 and I had four grandparents and everybody was still there. But in college I started to dig that this was not normal behavior, that normal parents don't have violent interactions and throw stuff at one another. And you know, my mother liked to throw my father out of the car on a highway. Like this stuff was not what every family did. And then I went to college. I got a job up in Buffalo. I'm skipping a few things. And then my college roommate's husband was in. When I was in the radio business. Was in the radio business in Florida. So I moved to Florida. And even though I was such the middle child, my parents decide no, first time, moved back to New York. I moved back to New York first. I'm old, I have to remember. No. And so I moved back to New York because I met my husband actually while we were skiing in Colorado and I moved back to New York. And the first thing my mom said is Wait, you're moving back to New York? You're not moving in with us, are you? No, I'm a very different person that left. I just bought my first house by myself. I've done all this, but I just knew my husband was like the guy. And 36 years later, still the guy. Two children, still the guy. So we lived in New York and I. It just got crazier and crazier and crazier and crazier. So we moved back to Florida. And when then my parents moved to Florida and I had a sit down, very grown up conversation, adult to adult conversation. That they can't bring the crazy with them, that I have a good life with good friends and peace was all wasted. Who can. You can't tell a bird not to fly.

Interviewer (13:40)

Yeah. So what kind of reaction did you get to that? I mean, also, your father is a silent witness to all this, so far in at least your storytelling. So was he just trying to keep the peace in the middle of the chaos or.

Sharon Kitrozer (13:52)

It wasn't until he passed away that I got how much he was involved. I always knew he would defend my mother. Very romantic. The day he died, he thought he married the prettiest girl in school. And you know, as kids we'd always be like, he must have somebody on the side because she's so mean to him. And the words she used, I still find. I don't repeat them. I don't use them. They were so un. I don't even want to say unhealthy. They were unhinged. And he never left. And then they moved to Florida and she wouldn't leave, really leave the house. Oh. And by then she was in a wheelchair and completely dependent on him. And then he died. Oh. He had surgery and then he got a blood clot and died 10 days later. And it was unbelievable. The by far. And this time I had little kids. It was by far the most overwhelming time of my life. Because me, who could fix everything and every job, I've always. You need that. You need to figure out a problem. Go see Sharon. You know, like, I am one who will sit here in the quiet and figure out the solution. I don't need to hear your advice. Just give me a minute and then I'll present you three solutions. It's just the way I had to grow up. It was the way I live. Like, give me a minute. I will figure this out. Oh. This was beyond figuring out because it wasn't anything he planned for my husband. He as he's going to the hospital he gives my husband the code to pay his bills on his computer. And I get him to the. He, he had like surgery for a blown out colon. Like terrible things and he was doing okay. And I go home that night, and it's the middle of the night and Mitch said, I check your parents bank of account. I don't need to pile this on you. But your parents have no money. Your parents have no money. I go, okay. And then a few days later, he died. So those seven for coats and all these other extravagant mental illness purchases had turned into $10,000 in their bank. And the home that they had double mortgaged without telling any of us that they defaulted on my sister's college loan. I could go on and on and we knew nothing.

Interviewer (16:40)

And then in a sense, you must have felt like she was now your responsibility because she was right there.

Sharon Kitrozer (16:49)

I was the only one. My one sister was in Boston and my one sister was in New Jersey. I had little kids. Thank God. The kind of law my husband does is elder law. So. So that part at least he was handling, but he had very little. Her other son in laws always ended up getting in big fights with my mother. Mitch never did because he wouldn't talk to her. He's like, I'm not getting in this crazy town. And he had his own crazy mother. So in all fairness, you know, he had his to deal with. But it, yes. And my sister, my oldest sister would fly in. We joke. Elvis is in the building. Because everything I said to my mother, no, we're not spending any more money. You have no money or anything. I'd be the bad guy. She'd come in and she goes, mom and I are going shopping. And I'm like, don't do that.

Interviewer (17:43)

So she had moved into your house at this point, had she moved in with you?

Sharon Kitrozer (17:46)

When my father died, she was still in the house. They bought from us, this cute little house, very old Florida, lovely home. But the problem is when you're working mother with two small children and your mother keeps firing the aides that you've hired to help her during the day, you get the call and I'm the only one here.

Interviewer (18:05)

Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (18:06)

So I'm running over there. And luckily at the time, I worked for the Walt Disney Company in the Radio Disney division with the nicest people I've ever worked with in my career who were like, you do what you need to do. You rock. Just go do what you need to do. I'm sure you'll get whatever you need to do done. Whenever you have a Chance. They were just amazing. And thank God. And finally I couldn't get her to leave the house. I knew she needed to, you know, get. She couldn't get herself out of bed. She was probably close to £300. She couldn't get out of bed. She couldn't get out of bed. I, you know, AIDS quit in the middle of the day, in the middle of the night. One locked her in the house. We had a break in our own house, her own house, to get her safe. Like it was the worst. It was the worst, the worst. And then I was up on a Disney function in Disney World, which is about two and a half hours from here, and I get a call from my mother. The ambulance is here. I'm going to the, I'm going to the hospital. I said, are you okay? I can't breathe. And I'm two and a half hours away. Like, this is great. Luckily, Mitch, my husband, stepped in. I was at a work function with my daughter. We were at the Disney Channel games. Like, oh my God, I can give her this magic that no other mommy in school can get done. And she's with her best friend and Mitch was terrific. But then they put her in rehab and she got better and we got her to move to a place where she yelled at everyone. Oh, but this is interesting. She also, she was magic. She would take. I got two different times calls from therapists to say I was a bad daughter. Well, we got fired. And the other one was terrific. He goes, he says, your mother says you never come visit her. I go, was there yesterday? What are you talking about? Your mom says you don't stay anytime. I said, yeah, because she spends the whole time telling me how awful I am. So I stay a while and then I go, I've had enough. He goes, that's very healthy of you. I go, don't ever call me again like this. He goes, I'm really, really sorry that I did. But the first one, we got fired because she, she made me come over there. They did a intervention with me. And I go, oh no, we're not interventing me. I have two children, I have a full time job and my other sisters don't live here. So I'm doing the best I can.

Interviewer (20:45)

So. So in the middle of all this, you must have. When was the, the intervention or not intervention, but the meeting with the counselor so that it was the aha moment.

Sharon Kitrozer (20:54)

It was shortly after that because I was up to my very full glass. And so I knew a therapist who specialized in borderline personality and I called her up and I said, I need your help. I need you to talk to me about the ground rules for not to. How to make this. Make it through. And I talked to her and she explained it all. And then she called, said, I'd like to get your two sisters on the call. And it was a tough conversation. It was a tough conversation because she asked questions like, who showed you what normal was when you were a kid?

Interviewer (21:45)

Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (21:46)

And really tough questions that were harder for one of us than the other two of us. Like, my little sister is very easy to say. I had two grown up sisters and two grown up brother in laws. You know, my sister didn't go away to college. My older sister, like she was in the worst of it. And she's a, she's a special ed teacher. She's a very nurturing, caring person. I'm a little more resilient. I am resilient and have no trouble saying no. That is the one thing I also got from growing up where I did. And it got stronger and stronger as I got older and older.

Interviewer (22:28)

And then the little sister who was kind of left behind.

Sharon Kitrozer (22:33)

Oh, the little sister. The little sister is so successful as a grownup, has wonderful kids, and she is an executive for a Fortune 500 company. She is like, really? We had one really interesting intervention shortly after we were Mary married. My grandmother was dying, my paternal grandmother, the one who knew the group with the Marx Brothers. And she, my grandfather thought it was a really good idea to throw a birthday party. And it was really like being alive for your own funeral. It was odd and uncomfortable and beautiful all at the same time. Nothing was left unsaid. And we drove Alana up, who was then 15, 16ish, and she wasn't going to go away to college because she was afraid there would be no one to take care of my mother. And we wouldn't let her out of the car till she said she'd go away to college. And she did.

Interviewer (23:39)

So you had this big. I don't know if intervention is the right word, but this initial call with the counselor who described the whole thing asked you all these questions. I wonder if those questions were to learn or for the counselor to understand what had happened or to help you all process what she was about to reveal to you.

Sharon Kitrozer (24:02)

That's a really good question. I mean, what had happened is the two sisters came down because they got a command performance at the nursing home that they needed to see three of us. And I said, you really need me because at this point, I'm director of sales of seven radio stations in West Palm. I'm like, I'm here all the time. You guys handle it. Tell me how it goes. I just. My cup was so full. I just needed a break. And they said, fine. And apparently the therapist calls my mom and my two sisters and tells her that they've diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. And my mother at this time had an electric wheelchair. It's a great family story. She turns around in a wheelchair and leaves. She left. And I said, you know, it's just putting on a name to everything we knew. We just had no idea what it was. But it explained a lot because we. You know, the book that is written, the famous book on Borderline is called Walking on Eggshells. And the other one is I hate you. Don't leave me. And that's. That's what we learned. And so when we got on the phone with the therapist, I said, I don't want to talk about my childhood. I don't want to relive the glory days. I want you to tell us how we played. Come out of the. Whatever many years she has left was still speaking to each other. And so she asked a few questions, Was really hard. And then she goes, let me give you. Because she. I think she kind of got. We were further in it than she thought. Like, we didn't want to talk about what it was. We knew what it was we wanted to know. And she gave us some super duper suggestions. She said, you make the decisions together and then tell your mom, do not give her a vote because she will work one of you against the other one of you. And, you know, but this also. And then. And then when she died, she was not. She was sort of not speaking to my little sister. It. It's something that's so complex, so complex and so many years of it that apparently children of borderline forget stuff up in their childhood because, like, why remember it? I call it the bats in the box. As long as you keep the box shot, the bats can't get out. But every once in a while, and because Alana grew up so many years, I've not really had. This is the only. This is kind of funny what you get from Borderline. There's a lot of. Almost all people borderline have some other addiction like shopping too much, eating too much, gambling too much, having too much sex. Whatever it is, there's usually something else for. My mother was spending money and eating and having. She ended up in the wheelchair. She had had hip issues. She was scared of Surgery. So she ended up in a wheelchair. My father had to do everything for her, which she loved. And like a control, a power thing. And, you know, now every. I was in Boston in June to see my little sister and my niece and nephew and brother in law, and something came up that happened before Alana was born. She goes, I've never heard that before. I go, sorry. Now it's. But we all find humor in it. Like it was some word. My mother, I was very chubby. And my. Why, we'd eat entamins cakes every night, and my mother accused me of having a disease. And I. She goes, what is that? I go, I don't know. I never looked it up. Like, it was just so much. You just really couldn't. You really couldn't keep track.

Interviewer (27:56)

All right, so this is all this family dynamic, and you escaped from it when you went off to school. Then you went into a world where you can't hide from anybody because you went into broadcasting, which is literally what the word means. You're talking to other people and they're presumably trying to talk to you. How did you end up in. In this world of broadcasting? I know it was sales later, but what was the attraction? How did you end up there? It's not just about an HBO internship.

Sharon Kitrozer (28:26)

Well, there's two parts. Number one, one of the teachers that impacted my life so greatly, I think I sent you the movie trailer. His name was Arnold Friedman. And I, you know, he told me biology and physics, high level science in Bayside High School. But he also taught one TV studio career because he was obsessed with film and obsessed with production. And my best friend and I. I don't even remember how we ended up in there, but we were in his class for like three years. And we were. The girls mostly was boys, and they were very poorly behaved but funny. It was like a class of just great joy and fun. And, you know, I always say I judged my teachers, looking back, as the ones who didn't see me how I was, but saw me how I would be. And Mr. Friedman thought I was the cat's meow. He goes, you know, you have a New York accent. Really? So do you, Mr. Friedman, you know, like. But he thought I was smart. He thought. And I was a very chubby kid. I was very chubby kid. And he saw me as beautiful and smart and talented. And so I became smart and talented and believed in myself. And then, as you saw, he apparently was a bad man and died in prison, you know, which I think was my first lesson. And people can be. And I learned that with my mom too, because when she was medicated properly, she was terrific. But one of the things that borderline is the medicine works till it doesn't work. I mean, I will. I very. I've had to learn to separate things. You know, you can be both crazy wonderful. You can be a really bad man and do really bad things, but still instill belief in a young girl that she could be anything. It's so amazing to me that kind

Interviewer (30:28)

of understanding, though often comes as we get older and have perspective. But when you're a young person and you're working with someone who enables you to imagine what your life can be like, the kind of career you could have, the worth that you can develop for yourself all these things and then for. For you to discover that that person had this lack of a term, better term, a dark side. What was that like for you?

Sharon Kitrozer (30:55)

Demon.

Interviewer (30:56)

Right. But I mean, so. But if they were giving you all this positive kind of feedback and enabling you to feel really good about yourself in the world, how did it feel then to discover that that person who was giving you all this praise was themselves not someone in any way?

Sharon Kitrozer (31:14)

It was very terrible. Luckily, in between him being my teacher and this happening were a lot of years. So I went. He made me, you know, understand television broadcasting. So that's what I went for. A journalism, broadcasting, speech communication degree where I met another teacher who I still speak to. Is not in prison. Is lovely and great. Of course, back in 1980 he was gay and that was a very like hush hush thing in 1980.

Interviewer (31:50)

Was different for those who are listening to this and it was a different environment to be open about your, you know, your orientation. Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (31:58)

You know, it's so funny. He was another one who saw me how I would be, not how I was. And I still communicate through Facebook with him. He's been married for. To his husband for years. He's the most. I adore him. And he will tell you the same thing about me. Like this amazing. You know, I'm so blessed to have been touched by teachers and friends who when the therapist asked, how did you know it was normal? I was blessed because I had normal grandparents. I had friends with super families who really loved me up. And I could, I could be in the circle, but the concentric circles around it were pretty strong. So I went to college. I loved being away so much. It was. I really found out who I could be when someone wasn't physically or mentally beating up on me every couple of days. Yeah. And then I Won a sales contest and one one round trip ticket anywhere Allegheny airlines would fly. So I came to see Allegheny Airlines.

Interviewer (33:15)

Well, I'm sorry, that's a throwback too. Yes, please go ahead.

Sharon Kitrozer (33:19)

Anywhere they would fly. And so they flew to Florida. I came to see my college roommate and her radio husband.

Interviewer (33:26)

Okay.

Sharon Kitrozer (33:27)

And he had set up an interview for me.

Interviewer (33:32)

Oh, wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (33:33)

And so I moved to Florida. Another big life lesson. Because everybody in any kind of. Mostly in sales jobs, certainly back then, if you quit, they threw you out that day. Get out. Nice knowing you. So I was planning. I'd already had my friends at Dormy going away party. I was all ready and packed up to go. And my boss said, oh, I'm so sorry you're leaving. Can you give me a couple weeks, maybe a month? And I said, no, you're supposed to fire me. And he goes, no, you're moving to another state. You're not stealing accounts. And that night I was all packed. I took all my notes from every account. I sat there and wrote these notes and I put my office key and I slid it under the door and moved to Florida. And the owner of the radio station, because I worked, it was a family run radio station. His father in law was the maintenance man, his wife was the marketing director. It was just hysterical.

Interviewer (34:38)

Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (34:39)

And just think, this was 1982. 82. 82. And he used to regularly get on the paging system and call me short little Jewish girl, will you come to my office? Can you imagine? Could you even imagine?

Interviewer (34:53)

Oh, wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (34:55)

And I came to Florida, started kicking butt here, and something was eating at me. I got on a plane, stayed with a friend of mine, and the middle of a workday, I walked in the office, the receptionist said, sharon, you can't go in there. And I just walk right past her. Now they like shoot me or something, but. And I walked into the owner's and he looks at me, goes, what do you want? I said, I've come to apologize. And he gets out from under his desk and I'm like, oh, I didn't know if he's going to throw me out of it. And he put his arms around me and he goes, short Jewish girl, I hated being mad at you. And it was one of the best business lessons I've had in my life. If you look on our, for our company right now, you'll see there's a blog called Come like a lady, leave like a lady. I, I learned my lesson. I've learned my lesson. I teach my lesson. I teach it to my, my Children both know this. My poor daughter, who is in ad sales, who'd have guessed in California, a boss was very mad when she quit and used a lot of colorful words and scared her. She was still quite young. And they. It has haunted this guy because you don't do that. You. You just don't do that to a young woman, a young man, any. A grown up anybody. And he's basically had to go into a different business because apparently she wasn't the only one. The company fired him like it was a whole big thing. And I said, well, Samantha, what are the lessons? Come like a lady, leave like a lady. You tried. You can't control that. Somebody, you know, Ugh. It was terrible.

Interviewer (36:51)

So this was how many years in radio? Because you started with that small station, but then you moved on.

Sharon Kitrozer (36:56)

I went from the small station to a station in Florida where I felt like I'd found my home. I kicked butt. I had lots of friends. I was not very good friends with a lot of the people I worked with because they were older than me, which is good because most died of drug overdoses. Radio in those days in Florida was crazy town. The ones who still remain greet me like an old friend because now we're all the same age old. And I was there. And then I went skiing and met my husband. And I sent four resumes to New York stations. Like, putting it out into the universe. Should I go back into radio? I mean, should I go back to New York and same radio? And here's what's really crazy. When I was in Buffalo, my old boss, who called me short, little Jewish girl, had a boss named Norm Schreib, very famous in the radio world. I'd met him one time. So I go into an interview at WABC Radio, and all of a sudden, out walks the general manager. And I said, hello, I'm Sharon Kiberzer. I'm here for an interview. I think we have a mutual friend, Norm Schrock. I'd met him one time. One time. And he goes, I hope you're joking, because I hate Norm Shri. And I'm like, I just sit there. The look on my face like, oh, well, there you go. So my other magic power is making people think that I know them better than I really do, which is a very good ability in sales and fundraising because I can bond with people. So he looks at me, and apparently I had a good interview, and I walked out with a job at wbc where I had the joy of working on his first day with Rush Limbaugh and wow, so nice to me. I know he was a lonesome human being and his views were horrible, but he was such a gentleman to me. One on one, he was charming.

Interviewer (39:16)

But in his earliest days of radio, you were doing that. Wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (39:22)

I sold his very first commercial on WABC in New York. He got in his car and went to one of my clients, the Spanish Tavern in Mount Mountainside, New Jersey, where the guy listened to him when he was on in California because he used to live in California. So I know this guy like 27 minutes and we're in my tiny little Toyota because he was a very big man back then and driving and he was charming. He was absolutely charming and gentlemanlike and never had a harsh word or. And then I'd listen to a show and go, eek. Oh, scary man.

Interviewer (39:58)

I guess he knew what would get an audience.

Sharon Kitrozer (40:03)

Radio is really interesting in the sense that I have touched. I used to work with cousin Brucey because then I went to CBS fm. I worked with cousin Bruce, I work with Ron. Yeah, and Ron Lundy and Harry Harrison and all these amazing, very famous DJs, famous oldies acts. I once, Nancy, I would work out in the morning and then I'd go to work in Manhattan. I started in Brooklyn. I work out and they go, so I'm coming in really early one day and there's a woman, we had a keypad. She said, oh. I said, can I help you? And I have my gym bag over my shoulder. She goes, yeah, I'm here to be on the Harry Harrison Show. I go, can I tell him who's calling? And he said, nancy Sinatra. And I'm like, I'm going to shoot myself. I had no idea.

Interviewer (40:56)

Wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (40:59)

But those days in radio, post cocaine, pre serious satellite, were great days in radio. I feel lucky to have been in those days of radio. Some of the women in radio I met throughout are some of my very best friends to this day. They were fierce, they were smart, they all had a story and oh my God, the greatest women. Just the greatest women. The guys were okay.

Interviewer (41:30)

You were just talking about developing that kind of superpower of bonding with people almost instantly. And I'm wondering if that's your main takeaway from these days in radio or if there's some other kind of major lesson that you took away and eventually applied into this non profit sector. What if you look back on all your radio times, what's the, the biggest joy and the biggest learning?

Sharon Kitrozer (41:54)

The, the biggest learning was I did new business development. The job nobody wants. Oh my God, everybody wants a big ad. Agency list. Nobody wants to call strangers. So I became an expert on talking to strangers. That is the biggest thing I learned. And oh, my goodness, in the world of nonprofit, that is my superpower. I can get anyone all I want on the phone.

Interviewer (42:23)

And considering how few people want to talk on the phone now, that really is saying something.

Sharon Kitrozer (42:27)

Yeah. And I'm unapologetically me. Like I always say, like, I do a lot of ghostwriting for my clients. And I said, now take the Sharon out of it and make it the Mario or make it the Susan or make it the Bianca and take the Sharon out of it. And that's only one client has ever changed it. She goes, you don't sound like me. It's true. Because she's an educator and the CEO of a, you know, a big school. And I'm like, yeah, I my. I sound like I've been in radio for a long time. The I definitely other ahas who I've met some of the most the best and the worst in people. Some of the best and worse than people. And I had more fun. And then the fun I came down here. I was director of sales for cbs and in between, I work from home when I had baby babies to the Walt Disney Company for eight and a half years. The lessons were boy, people from Disney used bad words. It was really Radio Disney was really an ABC property that went ABC merged with Disney. Some. I love those guys. We are definitely during COVID we had the radio ladies, the Disney radio ladies on group call every Wednesday night because my boss back then hired the same person six times over. There was Sharon in New York, Sharon in Detroit, Sharon in Chicago. And it was a national sales force. And we all had small kids. So the people who would talk about their babies now talk about their weddings. In fact, two of them were at my daughter's wedding in October. So it's very good hiring and working for Disney. Unrated radio stations that are all on am. It was selling magic. That is really what prepares you for nonprofit is the ability to tell. We do at cat and Mouse. I think our most requested training is storytelling.

Interviewer (44:40)

And that's definitely a part of everything you've been doing right here. The stories you tell not just about your life, but other people's stories. So how did you make the leap from this whole world of broadcasting into the nonprofit space? Why and how?

Sharon Kitrozer (44:54)

So I'm working at. After Disney, I got an offer to be director of sales for the CBS properties in West Palm. Very funny. Because I was hired by someone who knew me from New York, who's now retired, named Scott Herman. Very famous, very stellar human being. And we once sat next to each other, and I was Sharon Horowitz, and he was Scott Herman, who. That was the funniest thing in the world in the early 2000s. Oh, look, we have the same initials. Scott heard I was interfering for the job, and I got the job. Unfortunately, the person who ran the radio station didn't tell any of the managers that they were all not being hired because this girl named Sharon Kit Rose, was being hired because Scott Herman knew her. Oh, it was a tough job. It was a. It was a very unpleasant three years of time. And having been in radio for all going on 30 years, at that point, everybody I knew had been fired from radio. Nobody. I finally got the fickle finger of fate. I got fired. I thought I was going to need to go into, like, us, those special places with padded walls. I was like, when the guy fired me, without HR witness, they had no. They took out the whole management team. But I was dos. So I went first, and I was like, do you mean me? He goes, yes, I mean you. I said, what are you talking about? I don't get fired. He had worked at the station three days. He had worked there three days. He was brought in to fire.

Interviewer (46:26)

Wait a minute. When you said, I don't get fired, how did he respond to that? But wait, was this a relief, though?

Sharon Kitrozer (46:37)

At that point, I had my briefcase packed with all my personal stuff. I knew.

Interviewer (46:42)

I mean, would you have left without being fired?

Sharon Kitrozer (46:51)

I don't know.

Interviewer (46:52)

Sometimes we get stuck, you know, doing something that we're good at, maybe, and we're doing well at it, but we're still stuck.

Sharon Kitrozer (47:00)

I was so familiar, unfamiliar with being the one who got fired. Like, I just didn't know what to do myself. I go back to my office and I call in the guy they brought in as were bringing in his dos. I didn't know why he was there. He comes to my office and he said, sharon, you know, I really care about you. I hope we can be friends. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no. Get out your notepad. You got me fired, dude. You're going to write down every appointment I have, and I'm going to give it to you, and I'm going to give you everybody's contact information. Come like a lady. Go like a lady. I said, but it's all happening this afternoon because if you fire me tomorrow, I don't work for you. And he goes, got it. And he went and got taken Notes, Voracious notes. And I said, this is in this file. This is in this file. This is in this file. He ended up getting fired shortly after me because I was the one who knew where all the bodies were buried. But you know what? I then got hired by an ad agency, which was a blessing, a very low paid blessing, because I got to learn about strategy. I still find myself correcting clients and the difference between strategy and tactics. You know, I'm glad you know what you want to do. But we built our whole consultancy team, cat and mouse on tactics because there are so many consultants who do strategic plans. Here is your strategic plan. And then they sit and gather dust. Right.

Interviewer (48:37)

Right. They don't have a plan for implementation at all.

Sharon Kitrozer (48:40)

Yeah. And if you. If you don't know what to. And right now the world is moving so fast. I would love to sit down and talk about strategy for the next year, but maybe all your employees will be picked up. All the people you serve will be stuck in their homes because they're not legal. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I. We have one very good marketing director just started at a client. I'm like, dude, how are you planning for more than three months? How are you? How are you going to do that? It just keeps saying strategy. And I'm like, she doesn't even know what it means. Your strategy now is making it to next month and not having to let people go.

Interviewer (49:30)

So this was four years. Is that Daniels? And I'm trying to remember.

Sharon Kitrozer (49:34)

Daniels and Roberts was the ad agency. I'm still friends with Dan. He's not the best boss. Very miserable human being. Some days, like working for my mom. And some days he was good Dan and other days he was bad Dan. And my husband. Cannot believe I still talk to him. But everything I know about Met two things he taught me that were some of the worst voices I've had, have taught me the best lessons. And he taught me two things when somebody comes out with something. I just taught this to a client. Do you know that or do you think that I don't know. Do you know for sure that what you're saying to me is truth or it's just what you think? Because you cannot plan on stuff until you've confirmed that you know not just you think. And the other one is about messaging, understanding who you're talking to, what you're talking to radio. You know, you're talking to whoever listens to your radio station, asking them to buy Twinkies. Whatever it is right now, you had to really think the next lesson Came from. When I went, my partner said, you should come. There's an opening for an executive director at the American Red Cross, and they want someone who can speak on camera. I was a broadcasting major, Someone who can tell the story of the Red Cross and someone who can ask for money. I said, I'm qualified. And my boss there could sometimes be grouchy. It's just his nature. I still talk to him, too, and I learn more about nonprofit and about missions and about magic and about turning. Selling a thing into turning and selling. The belief in changing the world. Like, those 18 months were unbelievable. And by the time I got to. I went back into radio for a heartbeat, working for my old boss as a favor. And then I went to gift of life, the bone marrow registry, where my belief in doing the impossible. The day I quit, my boss said, you know, the CEO of the company said, you know, you've changed how we work here. And I go, then it is my time to go.

Interviewer (51:59)

But how did it. How did it impact you working for a charity like that?

Sharon Kitrozer (52:03)

Wow, that is like, a great question, Jay. I gotta tell you. Because it changed me. Because somehow I got my nose. Because I take care of whatever's in front of me, which sometimes gets me out of my lane. I'll be honest. And there was a guy looking for a match. A guy named Manny Vale Valdez. And if you don't know your match, if you have leukemia is based on your genetic heritage. So someone can, you know, an Eastern European Jew can save me. While this guy needed someone who's Hispanic. And there's a lot of things in the Hispanic and black community that make you not want to join a registry, share your DNA, especially now. Oh, my God. So I meet Manny. He lives. Our offices were in Boca Raton, Florida. Manny lives not even a mile from me. I meet him. I meet his wife. 41 years old. Couldn't find a match. Got some bad medical advice from a very famous hospital and waited too long to look for a match. I worked my butt off. I liked Manny so much, I still see his wife. She greets me like I'm an old friend. And I worked, and I was in Miami. I was chasing people down in New York, anyone I knew who might have the same ancestry. He did not find a match. My boss helped get him into a program at Sloan Kettering in New York, and that's where he died. And, you know, no joke, I'm calling her in New York. She's never. His wife had never been to New York. I'm like, she goes, I can't afford a cab. I go, okay, walk downstairs to the right. You'll see the subway station. Take that subway. Like, we were helping her in ways. And Manny died. And this is a great case where everyone would tell me how to feel. And I said, you know, I just need a little time to figure out how to make this all work in my head. And the answer was, I had two patients die in four years. One made it a long time and then died. Who I became really close to. And I said, I'm better human being for knowing those two men and their fan, their wives and family. Then I, I, I am a better person. But it took me a while to realize I could, maybe I could have not known them. I could have said, no, that's not my thing. I'm going to just stay in my corner. But I'm a better person. I know how life can move fast. I know. The other one who died went to the same high school as my parents, lived in Las Vegas. After he met his donor, which was the most magical, nice my life, he went home and he got a tattoo on the upper part of his leg that said, gift of life. Yeah, I mean, we were in Las Vegas with my family, and he met my whole family. He was fat. I have a very anxious son, very smart as an engineer. But this was a few years, you know, six, seven years ago. He was a high school kid. You know, it was a college kid. And Sandy said, you don't know how amazing your son is because he was an airplane mechanic. So he's talking about airplanes with my son, who is a cybersecurity engineer, you know, and he go. And he was fascinated with coal. Fascinated like I've never. And so I was really sad because I think he could have been a good. He had problems with his own kids, but he had a magic relationship with one of mine. People come in your life and go out of your life, and it's just, look, I'm here talking to you because my grandmother grew up with the Marx Brothers.

Interviewer (55:49)

Well, you know, when you were talking about the loss of people, like, I mean, your father, grandparents, other people,

Sharon Kitrozer (56:01)

it

Interviewer (56:01)

sounds like these people that you met through the course of this work, they had a really profound impact on you, even though you had known them for a shorter time.

Sharon Kitrozer (56:10)

100%, because bitter to love and loss and never love at all. I, you know, there's this old biblical saying, don't ask me from where that says, to change one life is to change the world. I didn't get that in radio.

Interviewer (56:28)

But you got it here.

Sharon Kitrozer (56:30)

I got it. From the first days at the Red Cross, every day with Gift of Life changed me. Until. And by the way, after I left, my son was a donor.

Interviewer (56:47)

Oh, wow.

Sharon Kitrozer (56:49)

First employee of Gift of Life to ever have a child donate. Unfortunately, this rarely happens. His donor won't. His recipient won't return calls. He's as far as we know, still alive, won't return calls.

Interviewer (57:03)

This is hard though, isn't it? I mean we, you know, especially in, in my world, we talk a lot about donors in the context of money.

Sharon Kitrozer (57:12)

Oh, it was a clown show trying to figure out which donor you were talking about. Oh yeah, yeah.

Interviewer (57:17)

So, but here, this is like, this is a, this is intensely personal. So I can, I mean, what was it like first of all for your son to make that gift and then how is it for him now to not be able to make that kind of emotional connection but still to know that he saved someone's life?

Sharon Kitrozer (57:32)

That's a really good question. I think. First of all, it was right after unlock of COVID It was right after he graduated high school. I don't remember. I'd been telling the story of gift of life for four years, four and a half years when this all happened. And I said, you know, I was ready. I had my speech born. He met his donor. I had my speech and we talked a lot about it because it was really deathly. He was disappointed, I was crushed because I watched all these other kids get all these lessons from discovering there was something bigger than your 19 year old boy self. There was something bigger you could do. You could change the world. You have the power to do it. And I sat with him in the CEO founder comes in like it was all day. You know, he's hooked up to give stem cells and we have a parade of people coming in and it was a really special day. He keeps. They give you a blanket when you donate. He still has it in his house. And he goes, I controlled what I. He has verily consent about it. He said, I controlled what I can control. I can't make this guy's decision. I had already prepped him because he was a 58 year old guy with AML. I don't know how much you knew about leukemia, but if there's a name in front of it, it means acute and that's on the back.

Interviewer (58:51)

Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (58:51)

And I looked at, I said, I've already. Their CEO scolded me. I said, yeah, I got cold prepared that he might die. And he goes, why would you do That I go because he might die. And I know my son, he don't like surprises of dead people like that. It cannot be a surprise for him. So he was really very happy he didn't. That they hadn't discovered he died. And you know, every time I get an email that, you know, there are things that live on when you worked at a bone marrow registry, like every time one of the people we swabbed for Manny becomes a match, I get a note. So Manny lives on. I think about Sandy at least once a week. The other one who died because knowing him, he's an ex hippie airplane mechanic, kind of freaky, fabulous guy. And I'm proud of Cole every minute of every day. They called Samantha too. They called my daughter too. Thank God they had a better match because she's so tiny. He's very big. It's easier to get stem cells out of big people than little people.

Interviewer (60:00)

I know it must have been hard to in a way to leave that because when there's so much fulfillment, even though it must be very emotional. How did you decide to go and then form cat and mouse?

Sharon Kitrozer (60:11)

How I loved my job beyond belief. They made a very big mistake, which again, learning, learning, learning. When Covid hit. I'd worked at home before. When I work for Radio Disney, I worked out in my bedroom. I've upgraded to an office now. That used to be the kids playroom. But I knew how to work at home. It was like not. And I back to solving your own problems. I said, okay, what's the negative? What's the upside and what are the, you know, what can we do here that's going to change this crazy world? So I said, first of all, we have a lot of partners. They're in the same situation. So we started doing these webinars. In fact, we had a zoom bomber like really early on. That was something. I've never heard words like that in quite some time since I left New York. And then a friend of mine who worked in ad agency, really cool dude, said, sharon, I want to talk to you about something. I said, yeah, what's going on? You know? And he said, the whole world is discussing health care inequities that had become my baby gift of life. All the Jewish folks had matches. I was going after the Hispanic people, the black people, the Asian people. I was going after touching people who really needed the help. And so we did a seven part town online town hall meetings with influencers from those communities. It's the most important work I've ever done in My life. And I got to meet Henrietta Lacks granddaughter. And like, all virtually. But we had these, like, amazing people on this. This town hall are. There were some people at the office who did the majority of the fundraising, who didn't really understand what gift of life had to do with healthcare disparities. It was very. So I had. I raised all the money and to. To pay the platform and to cover a certain amount of swab kits going to the lab and all this. I talked the CEO into jumping on who, if you watch all seven of them, by the seventh one, he like, it's the TV star. I got all the people, the only two. There were three of us who really worked on it. Our marketing person, our PR person and me. And we did this and it was amazing and changed the world. It was just. I knew. And then by the end, because the world was changing, they didn't ask me, they volunteered me that they were giving me a whole nother job as well as all the outreach. I was already a manager and now they were giving me a whole nother division to manage. And I said, oh, no. And she goes, oh, no, I'm sorry, you have to do this. And I said, then I have to leave. It was. And then again, she said, how long do you want to stay? Like, why won't anyone just fire me? And I again, wrote everything out, every phone number, every. Everything.

Jay Frost (63:25)

Yeah.

Sharon Kitrozer (63:25)

And it freaked my boss out because she was like. She said, just give me the important, the top line things. I said, you know, you got to be patient. Need a few days and you will get an entire, you know, with multiple tabs, spreadsheet of everyone. You will never have to go dig up any one of my contacts. And then I went into the CEO to say goodbye and he goes, I have failed you because you have changed the way we work. And I still speak to him. I love him.

Interviewer (63:54)

Well, this was 2021. This was also in the middle of the. Of everything, the pandemic.

Sharon Kitrozer (63:59)

It was the middle of everything. And I was so tired. I was so tired of pulling rabbits out of my house, out of my hat. And a couple of things that happened over, like, I didn't take vacation time because I was putting this all together and I was very tired. And a good boss would have said, you need to go away for two weeks. We will pay you to go have a nap for two weeks. Like, I was exhausted. I mean, keep in mind, these were all at night. So I was working all day. And then on these till night, 9, 10 o' clock at night. It was too much. Too much. So I quit. And of course, because my specialty is corporate fundraising, based on all the experience with corporations in my radio days, that I got lots of calls and all I could think of was that it was more of same. It was more of the exact same thing that threw me over the edge. And a couple of things that really bothered me when I was in radio and in nonprofit is the thing they have in common is they hire young people in radio. It's, you know, these young kids right out of college who think they want to meet, you know, oh, my God, I get to be in the music business. Not really. And that you're in a business, don't forget the business part. And then in, in nonprofit, I can change the world. But nobody tells them how to do either of those things. So what happens is that they crash and burn and they only get told what they do wrong, how to do it right so they can advance. And when I was in radio, I trained the heck out of my people. And when I was a nonprofit, even at the Red Cross, they had all this corporate training that taught them nothing. So we would do once a week training. How do you understand who should be your donor? How do you maneuver? So I called my friend slash old boss at the Red Cross, she was a friend first. And I said, I got an idea. And it's morphed a lot because we were just going to do training. We do a lot of training, but we have some clients we still work with. Our very first client.

Interviewer (66:03)

So what's the basic value proposition? I don't really like that phrase, but when you're telling people that this is what it's about, this is, this is why we're here, what is that?

Sharon Kitrozer (66:15)

What it started as was breakthrough fundraising training. Then it moved. I had friends in the ad agency who gave me a logo and slogans and helped me write my website. It was great. Number two, it became training tactics and tools, which really does describe what we do. But then what we really morphed into for a number, not all of our clients is really being their back room. So we have a couple that are all volunteer, that are tough clients, but they do great things. And then most of our clients are medium size and they have one fundraising person. So we help maximize what they can do. And what's interesting is there are three of us full time in the business. Me, whose expertise is quite corporate and training and very much partnerships, which I learned in my radio days. You got a dollar, you got a dollar? Look, we have two dollars it was really that simple. My partner Amy is an expert on plan giving and individual fundraising. And Ben, who is the gift to the world, who found us by reading my blog on LinkedIn. He's been with us five years now, who's much younger. He's like 36 little kids, is a grand genius, has an amazing closing ratio, lives in St. Louis. So he's so ridiculously polite and nice. And we get as two working moms like Amy and are like, there's. It's not a week that goes by where his little one doesn't run back of him, sit on his lap, hang up his phone and we feel like we're giving back to the world because his wife works out of the house and he, he's home, he says, I gotta call you right back. I gotta go take Carson to the bus. Like all this makes us feel like we have really given back to the people who gave to us. So,

Interviewer (68:12)

so I'm thinking, as you're doing all this now, where do you get, where do you get your juice? You've been through a lot of territory, done a lot of fun things. The things are put in front of you and you get them done. But now you probably have to go out there and hunt a little bit for work, even though people are finding you, obviously. And you have to find the fulfillment in it in a different way than somebody else describing it. You're not selling somebody else's program, you're not selling somebody else's project or vision. This is your vision, this is your mission. Where are you getting your juice from every single day.

Sharon Kitrozer (68:47)

That's such a. First of all, some days the juice is not squeezing because, you know. Yeah. But I will tell you, we have one client who is a new fundraiser when they hired us. She's spectacular. And I think my biggest juice. Ben and I joke because we both, he works with her on grants and I work with her on everything else. And she, you know, will say, this year we doubled what we did last Christmas. Or this. It's really the. I figured out when I became a manager in radio that the big step was you no longer could get a thrill out of your accomplishments. Your accomplishments was watching others accomplish. And that's like a good lesson when you have little kids that you realize is it's exactly like being a mom. You know, you don't get a medal for still paying for your kid when they're 35. I hope you don't have a 35 year old kid living in your house. You know, you get them, you get the medal when your kid can. There was a book I read when I was having kids. It changed my life called Lessons of a Skin Knee. It was a. A woman who, if I remember correctly, was a rabbi and then became a child therapist. Or maybe she was child therapist and then became a rabbi. Yeah, I think that's it. And what she discovered is in the era when my kids were little and probably, I don't know if you have kids, but your kids were little. It were the helicopter moms and, you know, participation trophies. And, you know, where kids really learn is when they are running and skin their knee. And your only job as a parent is make sure they can live without you. That's a hard one. And as we walking down our daughter down the aisle in October, man, it hit me in the face like a wet rag. I guess she can do this without me, you know. And my son lives in, in Phoenix where, you know, he's kicking ass. The both of them are doing really well and I guess because I let them skin their knee and both of them are off the payroll for a while if we don't count the wedding.

Jay Frost (71:12)

Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about Sharon Kitroser and Team Cat and mouse@teamcatandmouse.com Our thanks to our sponsor, Evertrue, the global leader in donor engagement and fundraising intelligence, helping nonprofits find, engage, and inspire their supporters. Our producer is Jack Frost, and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor, courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and check out our front Lines of social good and how to raise programs, all part of the Philanthropy Mastermind series. Until next time, I'm Jay Frost.

Interviewer (71:50)

Thanks for joining me.