← The PM Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
Martha Schumacher
Not exactly the sexy place people might think about. You meet at some lovely restaurant for a donor visit? Nope. This was my very first donor visit and it was literally going through the cafeteria line in Rayburn. So we're going through and we get close to the register and I've got my big drink on the tray and it's sitting there on the tray and it was probably iced tea, knowing me, and I managed to spill it all over my doters. Oh, tray. And all over my tray. Okay. Yeah, Right. As you might imagine, mortified. Could not have been more mortified. Absolutely beside myself. I was much, much younger, too. Like, I'm not saying today it wouldn't bother me, but I don't think it would bother me anywhere near as much today as it did then. Right.
- [00:43]
Jay Frost
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and changemakers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. Martha Schumacher is a global philanthropy strategist, leadership coach, and past chair of AFP International. As president of Hazen Consulting and founder of the Hazen Institute for Leadership Training, she spent over 25 years helping mission driven organizations grow their impact and their people. In this conversation, we explore the trail she has taken both literally and figuratively, beginning with one near where she lives today.
- [01:24]
Unknown
I'd like to start with something that I've seen in your bio and I have to ask you about it because I don't know what it is, and that's the Billy Goat Trail.
- [01:35]
Martha Schumacher
All right. Well, today. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me today and it's such a pleasure to be speaking with you again. We've talked about active listening. We've had a couple, I think, different opportunities and it's always just such a joy and pleasure to be with you. So the Billy goat trail for D.C. hikers, you'll know it as when you go to the Potomac and those various hiking trails there, probably the most challenging, in fact, definitely the most challenging, is the Billy Goat Trail. And so when you head over to. And again, this is probably more of a, like, D.C. thing, but there's a restaurant called Old Anglers Inn out in Potomac and right across the street there is a trailhead and you're nodd, so you might know about that trailhead, Jay. But it's a trailhead that then leads you down the C and O Canal and on one side the Potomac. On the other, it's one of the, I think it's probably the Most beautiful place to hike in the D.C. area. And so there are various trails that go off of that. But trail A people will know is the most challenging. And they call it the Billy Goat Trail because you kind of at points feel like you have to be a billy goat to traverse it. It's not that it's terrib long. It's more that it's very challenging in terms of you do some, you know, rock climbing, and you are at some points on very high. You're kind of high plateaus that look out over the Potomac that if you were to take the wrong step, you might not be in good shape. So, yeah, so it's kind of. It's kind of challenging, but it's a beautiful place. It's probably one of my happiest places in the D.C. area. And one of the reasons it makes me happiest is that for my goodness, probably something like 25 years now, a group of us, and it is largely women, we kind of call it the Billy Goat Chick Hike, but we have absolutely allowed men on it with us at various times. But monthly, for really about 20, 25 years, we've gotten groups together to go hike that hike on a Saturday or Sunday.
- [03:54]
Unknown
So how did that all start?
- [03:56]
Martha Schumacher
Well, it's interesting because I actually, now that I said 2025, it might be even more. I think, yeah, maybe it might be closer to 30 now, because back when I was at Defenders of Wildlife and I was there for close to 10 years, from the early 90s to the early aughts, I had and still have a good friend who she. And I said, how are we going to kind of get. We were both senior leaders who were supervising a lot of people, and we were saying, how are going to get people out of the office? Here we are at Defenders of Wildlife when pretty much everybody's here because they love wildlife and they love the outdoors, and we're constantly working and doing too much at our desks. So I think it really started out of that kind of organically out of let's get people out on the trail. And she and I, and now one other much younger than us, which we like because it helps with the demographics of who shows up. The three of us now host that hike. So, yeah, that's really where it started.
- [04:59]
Unknown
So were you always a hiker?
- [05:01]
Martha Schumacher
You know, it's funny you say that, because one of the things I thought about in terms of getting ready for today, for our discussion today, because I knew we'd be kind of delving a little bit into, you know, My history, my past. And perhaps kind of what drives me is as little kids, my three siblings and I have talked for many years about the fact that when we were little kids, we certainly explored the kind of small trails and actually the Two Ponds lakes in our neighborhood. But I would not call our family that family who went on vacations to go hike at national parks or something. We really weren't that family. It wasn't until my oldest sister moved out to Arizona to Tempe and kind of discovered all the amazing trails out there. And then she kind of got us all turned onto it, including my parents. So that, that was more. Which was the 80s when that, you know, so more when I was into my 20s, did I start to really discover the. The wonders of being able to just, you know, go. Go out and really walk. Right. People, people who don't hike think that hiking is this big undertaking. But I mean, let's be real, right? It's just walking. It's just going into nature and walking. Right.
- [06:25]
Unknown
But not always on the cliff edge. That's. That's a decision.
- [06:28]
Martha Schumacher
Fair. That is a decision. That is absolutely a decision. Fair enough. Fair enough.
- [06:34]
Unknown
And it's something, if you came to that, you know, at a different point in your life from childhood, that's also, you know, a decision to change. But you talked about where you were from, and that's Ann Arbor, right?
- [06:47]
Martha Schumacher
That's right. You got it. You got it. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting, right? These days in Ann Arbor, there's a lot happening with the University of Michigan kind of in the. In the news. But my short answer is yes. I was born and raised in Ann Arbor, as were my three siblings. What I'll share is that my parents met at the University of Michigan, so that's how far back that goes. My father has been gone for about 10 years now and my mom for about five. And so it gives you an idea of how deep that history is and how deep that goes for our family. My father was actually working at University of Michigan for probably about 40 years, and his paid job was. His day job was to run wom, which is the NPR station. Yeah. In Ann Arbor. Right. At University of Michigan. But what's interesting is we talk these days about how many of the kind of younger millennials in Gen Z have their often want a side hustle that seem. Who've kind of just become more common these days. And what I think is interesting, as I was prepping for this, I was realizing, oh, my goodness, I've never quite thought about it this way. But both my father and my mother kind of had these passionate side hustles. So for my father, he would work, I'm sure well over 40 hours a week at the station. And then he also taught two classes, a communications class and a jazz class. But his side hustle, his true passion, which he was never, far as I know, paid a dime for, but loved every minute, was when he hosted a national show on NPR called Jazz Revisited. So.
- [08:46]
Unknown
Wow.
- [08:48]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, yeah. So that was, you know, I grew up with jazz in my household. We grew up with kind of the joy of, you know, learning about and listening to and really delving into jazz. And jazz from that big band era was his specialty. He actually was an expert on that era of jazz. So he loved. Yeah, so he loved hosting that show. And by the way, it started local. So first he just did this local show once a month for, well, every month for UoM. And then it built and built and grew and went to other stations and eventually NPR came to him and said, can we do this nationally? And we want it once a week. And so half hour every week on came Jazz Revisited. Yeah. And here's a little connection to this, which is that for me, which is that for 10 plus years, probably from when I was around 10 or 12 to into college, I ran records and did station breaks at UOM for the local show. Yeah, yeah, I did.
- [10:03]
Unknown
Oh, wow. So I was probably in the halls of cbn. Maybe there was a little bit of overlap during that time. Cb, wcbn.
- [10:12]
Martha Schumacher
About your cbn. That is. This is amazing.
- [10:16]
Unknown
That was not the same kind of station. That was a little student effort, but wow.
- [10:21]
Martha Schumacher
And CBN still going strong, in fact. And it's. And it's interesting you bring CBN up because over the last couple of years they've actually played some Jazz Revisited shows. They kind of reached out to us and said, hey, would it be okay if we ran some of the, you know, the old shows? And you're like, we'd love that. We'd love to hear that on there. So, yeah, wow. I did. I had no idea we had that connection. That's incredible. Love wcbn. Listen to it often.
- [10:48]
Unknown
That's amazing.
- [10:49]
Martha Schumacher
That is amazing.
- [10:50]
Unknown
Before we move away, totally from your father sounds like a very interesting guy. He was.
- [10:56]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, he was.
- [10:57]
Unknown
So was music a big part of the house as well as the job? Was it in your house?
- [11:02]
Martha Schumacher
Huge part of it. It's hard to imagine. One of the things that my closest friends to this day talk about is that if you came over to the Schumacher house, Jazz was going to be playing or if mom and dad were gone. Okay, maybe later on it was more, you know, rock, et cetera, but, you know, R and B. But, yeah, there was always music. And it's one of kind of. Yeah, it's actually, it's funny because, again, focusing this show right on the individuals you interview and understanding that I don't, as much as I have a healthy enough ego, I'm not always great at talking about myself, per se. I will tell you that for me, when I think of kind of the three things that kind of maybe delight me most or drive me most or are priorities for me in life, and I think, you know, I love acronyms, so I kind of have thought about this a lot. And so my acronym is ham, with apologies to the vegetarians and vegans out there. And it is about humor. I mean, humor is just first, I feel like, especially. And I know we're not going to, you know, we're probably not going to delve too much today into kind of what's happening in the world right now politically. But I will tell you, humor right now is one of the. The things that's kind of saving me at the moment, but it's always a driver for me and my husband, who I've been with for almost 40 years. I would say both of us, humor comes first. The A is animals. Clearly, you know, my history, as I've already mentioned about Defenders of Wildlife, you know, a lot of my history is in the environment and wildlife, but animals, we've always had, you know, we've always had at least two dogs. You know, we have two dogs right now, Josie and Gage. And animals are just a high priority for me. And then the last is music. That's the M. So it's a. You know, it's a funny acronym. It's a funny word, but that's kind of, you know, that very much defines, I think, where I come from, kind of what my grounding is. And I want to make sure, just to also talk about my mother, because she also had this incredible side hustle. Her main job, her paid job, was to teach history and English to middle schoolers here in Ann Arbor. And so to this day, I will have people, even though she's obviously been gone five years, come up and say, oh, my gosh, are you Rusty's daughter? Her name was Shirley Schumacher, but she was a redhead. And so she was rusty to everybody, pretty much. And so it's amazing because the impact she had on, I think, really, if you add it all up, probably Thousands of kids lives was pretty amazing. But then. So that was her pay job and she didn't start that until I'm the youngest and she didn't start that until I was, I think 12. So in other words, her main job until then was the raising of the kids. And I think very much for those times, it really did fall to her much more frankly than dad. And I don't feel like I'm being disloyal to them. I'm sure if they were sitting here right now, they would confirm that. But once she started working that full time job of teaching middle school, she also, within a few years of doing that, discovered that there was an interest from a town in Japan called Hikone. Not Hakone, which is the larger one more people know about, but Hikone, which is on Lake Biwa and kind of in the center of the main. It looks like, you know it. Yeah, you know. Oh, no. Oh my goodness.
- [14:49]
Unknown
Not to Hikone, but to Lake Biwa.
- [14:51]
Martha Schumacher
Yes, to Lake Biwa. Well, we have, boy, we have a lot of, we have a lot of things in common, don't we, Jay? We have a lot of common bonds. So what happened was they kind of reached out and my mother was the one who launched and it took a lot of work. The exchange program between Hikone, Japan and Ann Arbor, Michigan.
- [15:12]
Unknown
Oh, so a sister city relationship.
- [15:14]
Martha Schumacher
Sister city relationship. And she was the first to go. You know, she went over and spent, I think it was three months there the first time and then many times over the years. In fact, I would say 10 to 12 times over the, over the years she went with my father and lived in Japan and was part of various exchange programs. But probably the coolest was that the second time she went, my father went with her and they lived there for a year. And speaking of visiting, each one of my siblings and I and our significant others went and spent time with them there in Japan. And in fact, when my husband and I went, we were there for three weeks and we traveled not only around kind of the main, you know, island where most folks know of, for example, Hiroshima and Miyajima and Tokyo, et cetera, but we also traveled into the north back at a time when not a lot of Westerners were doing that. So, so that was pretty, that was pretty that I was quite, you know, I was in my twenties then. And that had a pretty profound impact on me. And I think it further fueled my kind of wanderlust because I am such a, a, you know, road warrior. And I, I really do Love travel.
- [16:31]
Unknown
So, yeah, so what. First of all, what inspired her to do that? Because there was no blueprint for it at that time. And then second, how did that impact you?
- [16:44]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, I think the main inspiration is that there was outreach from some folks in Hikone. And what's funny is I don't. I'm not sure exactly, like, how they found Ann Arbor, but I. I think it'd be pretty easy to guess that someone through the university, you know, probably connected them up. And so I think that's where it began. But I think the big difference is that one of the. I love being persistent about things that, you know, I really care about. And I think I learned that persistence from my mother. And I think, you know, it's one thing to kind of have someone reach out, it's another to then make it happen. And so I give her so much credit for that persistence. So maybe that answers somewhat of the second part of your question. But I also think that whole. I think the other piece to that second question is really, up to that point, I had done traveling. I'd been to Europe, I had been to Mexico, I'd been a few other places, but I had never been somewhere that felt that different, that felt that foreign from the U.S. and so I think it had a really, again, like, a profound impact in terms of my wanting to learn more about other cultures, about how other people, you know, how other people's lived experiences are, et cetera.
- [18:04]
Unknown
How old were you when you first went there?
- [18:06]
Martha Schumacher
Went to Japan. Yeah, that would have been. I think I was in my late 20s.
- [18:11]
Unknown
Yeah, but you'd already traveled to several countries. That in itself, that sounds like an Ann Arbor experience.
- [18:17]
Martha Schumacher
So that brings up another question, which.
- [18:20]
Unknown
Is your family was very blue. I mean, if you don't know what we're talking about, that's go blue and all that, but that's 40 years of blue, at least. And then you go to Indiana. So, first of all, how did you manage to extract yourself from the University of Michigan, and why there, and why what? You studied there.
- [18:42]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah. Thank you. This is great, too, because I have all these notes, and you're like, you're getting to. I don't know that I'm gonna have to look at them that much because I think you're hitting on kind of all the main things I thought you might wanna cover. So in terms of iu. Well, first of all, I extracted myself from Ann Arbor because I'll confess that I think by the time I was getting ready to go to college because of Trying to think how to put this. My father was quite well known at that point in Ann Arbor because of the radio show. I don't know that I was this self aware at the time, but I think when I started looking back at it, I realized I really felt like maybe I needed to go somewhere else, you know, to kind of, to kind of carve out my own way and my identity, et cetera, et cetera, you know, all of all the things. And so I think, I think that was part of it. I'm not saying that was all of it, but I also at that point was 100% sure, as one is at age 17 and 18, right, that I was going to be a journalist. Like that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to bring stories to folks that maybe wouldn't get caught. And Indiana University has one of the best journalism schools in the world now. God love every journalist out there. And boy, especially these days, boy, do I appreciate journalism. I will tell you though, maybe as hard as fundraising can be, maybe as it turns out, it was the right choice. And I just mean that from the standpoint of, boy, what journalism has been through, the difference between what, what I would have been pursuing, you know, at that point in time versus what it looks like today, it, it's, it's been tough, right? So it's kind of interesting.
- [20:37]
Unknown
But I'm, I'm even thinking about what it was like as a student journalist then. So if you were studying those things, because I think you studied law and.
- [20:45]
Martha Schumacher
Public policy, you got it.
- [20:47]
Unknown
I, I don't know when you were there. I'm not asking unless you want to reveal, but when I was at Michigan, we had typewriters at the Michigan Daily. So it was not, it was not the digital world quite yet. I think they were going to remove the bowling alley and turn it into a computer center. But journalism was at a state where the journalists really to some degree had agency over what they wrote and they negotiated with the editor and then it went to the printer. It's a totally different environment now, not just economically, but even the way the.
- [21:16]
Martha Schumacher
Work is created 100%. All of the above. And I think I probably have two thoughts on that. One would be that. But at that point in time, I think the moment that kind of changed it for me is not that I necessarily ever was really thinking about being someone who would be on screen per se. I really was much more interested in the writing aspect. But I did experience something in that time period that kind of turned me off, which was it was One of those moments, and unfortunately, we've probably all seen it at some point or another in our lifetime where someone had just lost a family. I mean, literally someone had just been killed, and the reporter was kind of doing the, you know, like, microphone in the face, you know, shove in the face moment, and not being at all empathetic or even sympathetic to the person's situation. And I think that in some ways, you know, turned me off a little bit. And again, it isn't to say that that would have necessarily been the specific path I took, but I think it did give me pause. But the second thing I was gonna say gets more specifically to what you just said, which I'm more than happy that at the point that I was in college, we were just learning, like, computers, to your point about typewriters, computers were kind of brand new, and we were just learning things like. And it'll be funny, whoever listens to this, like, some people are going to get this immediately, and everybody else is going to say what, because they're under a certain age, is that there was this whole Fortran program. I don't know if you remember Fortran, although I never.
- [22:52]
Unknown
I still don't. Yes, but. Yes, I know what you mean. I know what you're talking about.
- [22:56]
Martha Schumacher
And so Fortray, I'll never forget the Fortran class I took. I somehow couldn't find one of the cards because that was the one where you had to have hundreds of cards. And if they were all in a certain order, like, it was just so ridiculous when you think about it today. And so I think it took me another, however many, you know, few hours to either find the card or if I never found the card, which I probably didn't, had to go back to the Prof. And confess. I'd like, you know, I mean, it was a nightmare. So, yeah, it was. I mean, so that was the world, to your point, that we were in then. And it in no way, shape or form, in any way I can think of right now, resembles, you know, anything of where we are today with tech, but also to your point, certainly. Absolutely. Jay, around, you know, what is the process? What is the approach? How does journalism kind of, you know, get done and what happens to. To get there? And apropos of nothing, I have a business consultant who worked at the Washington Post back when Katherine Graham was running it. So, I mean, to give you an idea to your point of the difference in how things. And we don't necessarily need to go deep on what's happening with Washington Post right now, but I just mean the difference between just where the world was at that point is it's night and day. There's really kind of no comparison. Right. So.
- [24:25]
Unknown
Well, that probably has. Does inform a lot of things, like you were just saying, even the FORTRAN cards probably were an influence on deciding not to go into computer programming, among other things. But, but, but, you know, your experience and at least witnessing the way journalists practice their craft or something, and a few of them maybe practice it in a way that was not as empathetic as it could have been. Those things are also all around the culture at large, including this world of. Of social good and nonprofits and fundraising. But how did you go from where you were at Indiana and studying a broad range of things to then going into this nonprofit world? There must have been a gap between that and defenders, right? I mean, what.
- [25:09]
Martha Schumacher
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you mentioned law and public policy a moment ago. And what happened was once I kind of made that shift and decided that I was not going to be pursuing journalism, and that was really kind of halfway through school. And I'm a believer in transparency. And I will say too, that I think I also lost my way a little bit around having a little bit too much fun at school. So that happens. So a lot of things kind of entered in. But by the way, folks, because people aren't going to see this. You're only going to hear it. Jay did just nod his head in recognition. He did just. He got it. He got it.
- [25:57]
Unknown
I know. Yes.
- [25:58]
Martha Schumacher
Okay, good. There we go. But I think that once I kind of took those routes, first thinking it was going to be journalism, then maybe getting a little bit lost around why I was there and what I needed to be there for versus what I sometimes was spending too much time on, which frankly was. Was socializing, which by the way, is maybe a good segue too, to think about relationship building and what we do. But really there was another step in between, and that was that I discovered and really just kind of fell upon at IU that they had this brand new public policy program, this brand new school of public policy. And so that was when I switched my major and said, I am interested in this idea of pursuing public policy and in particular law and public policy, because it was a concentration as well as a major. You could kind of do either or. And by the way, I ended up actually majoring in law and public policy and minoring in literature. So, yeah, I just reading writing again. I mean, maybe that's. We bring it back to that journalism tie into writing just as Always, always kind of been of interest to me. And part of that may be because my mother taught English. Who knows? But she had us all reading from a very early age. And we're all, my three siblings, two sisters, brother and I are still avid readers. So anyway to all of this, I really got interested in that, and frankly, which happens to so many of us, I kind of found this professor. His name was David Allen. He is gone now, but I found this professor there who taught two different classes. One was. He was an attorney. He was a lawyer. And one was very steeped in law. And then the other was kind of a broader public policy class. And I think in many ways, and I did tell him that early on, that in some ways he kind of saved me, as many professors do with students, where I think it kind of brought me back on track and got me really excited. And. And I would argue part of why D.C. has continued to hold such a. Has been such a kind of draw, I guess would be the word for me, has been this public policy passion that I've had for a very long time. And I think as much as I was interested in what was happening politically and because, you know, Ann Arbor, you know that Ann Arbor can be very political, so I grew up with it. But I think that he kind of of stoked or restoked that fire. And that was what I For those next two years. And then, of course, what I ended up graduating with was a major in law and public policy. When I got to D.C. my first job was actually as a paralegal for a law firm called Kirkland and Ellis, and their headquarters is in Chicago, but they have a big office in D.C. and so I was there three years, and pretty much everyone else around me that was a paralegal was there. Their next step was going to be law school. And I thought about that, and I think in many ways, that's the track I thought I was on. And then I got to a place and this is not. I mean, I don't think this is anything to do necessarily with Kirkland Ellis per se. It was more that Kirkland Ellis, like many of the big firms, was focused in litigation. I think by year two, I thought, thought, yeah, this isn't really what I want to do with the rest of my life is be working on large lawsuits. Like, for example, two of my three years there, I worked on a lawsuit that was three oil firms, oil companies against three other oil. That's just not where my heart is. But what I did learn there that I have shared with folks I've mentored is I learned a whole lot about project management. It was a great place to learn how to manage large projects. So I actually think that there was a real benefit there that I didn't even necessarily appreciate at the time. By year three, I started looking around and then I really started discovering, wow, I am in this haven, this mecca of social good organizations. That's when, by the end of year three, I took a position at the Institute for Conservation Leadership. And that's a small organization that still exists that is kind of lean, lean and mean, small yet mighty. And they do a lot of training for teams at environmental groups, all kinds of training, you know, everything from leadership training to fundraising, et cetera. And I was there for a few years and got a lot of great experience, including. That's where I started getting my fundraising chops, because there were only three of us on staff. So that's where I learned how to, for example, write a fundraising letter, et cetera. And then, though, I think really the big breakthrough was when I then moved in onto Greenpeace, because Greenpeace, after the institute was all about major gifts and all about me being on the road. I think I must have met with anywhere from, I don't know, 20 to 30 donors a month. I mean, that's how intense that was. And then after two years at Greenpeace was Defenders. So that's in a nutshell, that's my in house resume. And I was, you know, at Defenders for nine years. So.
- [31:53]
Unknown
Well, before you pass Greenpeace, Greenpeace just went through a major litigation.
- [31:59]
Martha Schumacher
That's right.
- [32:00]
Unknown
I don't know if. How do you feel about that? You spent a lot of your time working with environmental organizations and social good generally. That was a major case. I'm not asking what you think of the legal aspects of it, unless you want to comment on that, but. But just how does that make you feel as somebody who spent so much time and energy working with organizations like this that are trying to advocate for our environment?
- [32:28]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, I mean, I think with that, if nothing else, just for time, I will say in terms of. Yeah, I don't think I need to necessarily weigh in. I don't know, it might be obvious where I'm coming from. But I will say that for me, bottom line is that I was there a very long time ago, A, and B, I was at Greenpeace usa, not Greenpeace International. So, you know, it was. Yeah, it was a very different place and a different time when I was there. And in fact, interestingly, when I was out meeting with major donors. That was a time when that organization. I was very much on my own because there really had not been a major gift officer before. And so there actually wasn't even a lot of trust of those giving large gifts, which I know, like, we could do a whole podcast on that. Right. But so it was really just me kind of out on the road trying to make, you know, start making connections with. With these donors. So. Yeah, yeah, a lot of things have. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, please.
- [33:38]
Unknown
No, I was going to say. And then, of course, as you said, you went to Defenders. What. What attracted you to that? And then that was 10 years. So I'm sure you did a number of things, but what. How did you enter and then what kind of work did you do before you decided to head out again?
- [33:55]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, so I got there. I was very fortunate in that someone who had left Greenpeace went to Defenders, and I had been at Greenpeace less than two years and got a call and. And basically they said, the major Gifts director is leaving. And this person said, I think you'd be great and why don't you apply? So I was very lucky because, as is often the case right. In the world and is not always an equitable thing, is that I think a lot of it was connections. Do I think ultimately, do I hope that I did a good job when I was at Defenders? Made a difference, helped out? Sure. But I also think that obviously made a huge impact. I mean, you know, made a. Was a huge differential. Right. To have this person who had now been there about a year and who I think folks there trusted vouch for me. So, yeah, so I got that job and I was Major Gifts Director for two years. And then the next seven years I was VP because the VP left and I got that promotion. And I think. I mean, probably the thing that. When I think about. About the contributions I made at Defenders, I think, well, a couple of things. First of all, we had almost a Camelot type situation. I always joke about in that, you know, when. When they talk about the days of things like, you know, the Kennedy years or the, you know, just certain eras of time that just everything kind of came together. First of all, I just had this unbelievable team. Now, it took me, you know, a couple years to build it and to get there, but I had this unreal team of development officers that were so committed and so smart and really good at their jobs. So there was that. So that was pretty darn fortuitous. I also had these incredible program officers. The Person running conservation, the person running legal, the person running public policy. They were all highly, highly competent and almost every one of them were excellent with donors, you know, which, I mean, no, it's, it's no, you know, people are just who they are. Some, some, you know, folks are better with donors than others. But boy, I mean, these were people, you know, almost to a person that I could take out on the road and, you know, put in front of donors. And yeah, it was, it was kind of. And they were just such great teammates, right, as, as folks working together to essentially run the organization. And then, and then I feel like those two combinations. But then. So with those two elements, you're already so far down the track. Well, the third element is that again, fortuitously is a good word. My very first year at Defenders of Wildlife was when the wolves were restored to Yellowstone. So this was something that Defenders had been working on for at least a decade, probably closer to two at that point. And while many organizations worked together to make that happen, which is important to note, Defenders was the lead organization. So being able to not only connect with donors on that, but also we then had a Yellowstone workshop every year where we took Don. You know, in other words, it was like, it was almost, you know, it was like all the stars aligned. And it was just this time period that, you know, was, was really quite magical, I think, for. To be in that place at that moment, I guess, is what I'm saying. And then I guess maybe I would add one other, other thing, which is I looked at my number one job when I was VP for those seven of the nine years I was at Defenders, I looked at my number one job as supporting and advocating for my staff. And to me, I look back and while in the moment I realized that I hopefully was doing it for the right reasons, I look back now and think, I think that's why so many of those team members, why we're still in touch today. Today, right, is that things were never perfect. Nowhere is perfect. We, we had all of, we had our usual challenges anyone has at a, you know, large organization. But I think for them, they felt like, well, they knew that even if something didn't go the way they wanted it to, that I at least was trying to have their backs, you know, so, yeah, so I think those are, those are some of the kind of, yeah, the key, key pieces of what happened in my almost 10 year tenure.
- [38:30]
Unknown
I would have asked you more about that, but I think you just gave a great explanation of how that's important. But before we turn away from it. You mentioned the restoration of the wolf population in Yellowstone and Yellowstone in general. We have a very short memory for public policy in this country for many things, but especially policy. So for those who don't remember that, why was that important to bring the wolves back to Yellowstone?
- [38:56]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, now it's a great question. I mean, the bottom line is that that was an incomplete ecosystem until that happened, you know, so for, for hundreds of years, right, wolves roamed that area and then they, that population was decimated and eventually they were, they were gone, they were killed off. And so, so it completely changed the ecosystem and it changed the ecosystem both, not even just the wildlife, it changed everything about the ecosystem. And so to be able to restore them and bring back this ecosystem to where it was, to its kind of organically correct, I guess, or organically complete, that's a better word. To bring it back to that former glory and to its original state of where it really is supposed to be was pretty dramatic. And of course it was a hard fought battle. And in some ways that battle is still being fought today.
- [40:02]
Unknown
In what ways do you see it being fought and what's our role as a sector in fighting it?
- [40:07]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, I mean, first of all, all there are ranchers to this day who feel there just should not be wolves there, that they are, you know, that they are pests, that they will come and feed on their livestock. And by the way, you know, here and there that happens. The reality is it doesn't happen anywhere near on the level that, you know, has sometimes been kind of misreported, you know, but it is one of those things where I was always and continue to be sympathetic to the fact that if you are a rancher and you're father, mother, whatever, if generations going way back, you've always had ranchers and you've been a part of that ranching community and ranching family and maybe you've had something happen that to you was a major threat to your livelihood. It's understandable. But I think the way we are, I mean, it's very understandable, right. You'd be feeling this way. The way that I think Defenders was able to get there was we had folks, one person in particular on the ground there who had born and raised there and who worked with the ranchers. And to this day that program still exists around what are the ways that we can reduce and in many cases eliminate the likelihood of having conflict right between wolves and livestock. And that was a big part of how we were able to make that happen. And the shorter answer to your question about what is our responsibility. Well, I think you can make the argument that if we really are about watching out for others, if that's really a big part of what, and I believe it is, what social good is all about at its, at its foundation, then others include two legged and four legged folks who make major contributions to the world, to this country, but also to the world.
- [42:19]
Unknown
So you were at Defenders doing all this great work and then you must have had an epiphany or some kind of moment where you decided you wanted it to be out there on your own. How did that happen? Happen?
- [42:30]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, it's funny because I really, at the end of the day I, I never thought actually that I was going to be that person. I was, I was sure I was always going to be in house. I just, that's just the way that I had operated, the way it's the future I saw for myself. And then I had a opportunity, in my ninth year at Defenders, I had a potential opportunity to go to another organization. And I, and I, I wasn't quite there yet, especially because of how much I just adored Defenders as I've stated. But I was on these two cross country trips because there was a California flight from D.C. where I was heading out there to talk to this particular organization. On those two flights, the first one I went out and met with the CEO and then the next one was actually going to be to meet with the board. So it be was to going kind of getting closer and closer to the possibility of working out there and frankly moving out there, which also that's a big deal too, to uproot Casey, my husband and our dogs, to go out there and also to leave the amazing DC community, which frankly, I am very confident in the fact that I made the right call as much as I absolutely love California. But all of this is to say on those two flights, back and forth I started really thinking through what do I want to do next. And in the meantime, I, fortuitously, my word for the day apparently had some outreach from a colleague who said, have you ever thought about consulting? And if you have thought about it, what would you think about partnering? This turned out to be, and I'll call her out, Kathy Swayze, who is to this day a business partner and she's with Impact Communications. And it was really interesting because she kind of, it was almost like she pitched me on. These are all the reasons why I think you'd really love doing this. And so I did kind of get to a point towards the End of that ninth year, where there were some reasons, including kind of an issue, a management challenge, which had, by the way, nothing to do with the CEO, who is a friend to this day, but just some things where there was some shifting going on around what would align most with my values. And so I think it's important to share that without going into too much details, just again, for anybody who might be listening, who's kind of thinking about their next move in their career. And so I wanted to stay open to this possibility, even though it wasn't originally what I thought my career path would be. And so, so I made that change and I just celebrated 21 years. Yeah, I mean, I'm going out on 22 years of being a consultant.
- [45:34]
Unknown
It's amazing. And I know you were probably doing that solo at first, but not any longer. Obviously you've built your firm. But how did you find the name?
- [45:45]
Martha Schumacher
Oh, yeah. So that name. So Hazen was my father, my grandfather, and it's my middleman name. So that's where that came from, is that we did a brainstorm. I kind of got family and friends together to brainstorm the name and a lot of great names came up. And then at the very end, my brother in law looked at all of us and said. And he had not said a word the whole time. He was clearly listening and thinking and he said, what about Hazen? So I give him all the credit because it's just kind of, you know, it makes me smile every day to think of my family, you know, my longest standing relationship with my family. And it is a tie in with my middle name too.
- [46:31]
Unknown
So that's something to get together a group like that, including family and friends, when you're starting a firm, that really sets it in motion in a different way from the way a lot of firms are developed. Is that still kind of a factor, as you think about things, is this kind of close knit group of people. You've mentioned it several times, the people at Defenders, the people, you know, that you went to school, but you've cited a professor. How important is that? These connections?
- [46:58]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah, it's everything. I mean, it's interesting because it brings up to me probably two things at least. One is that, you know, I think there's a reason why my kind of, you know, the hat that I've kind of, you know, hung everything on, or at least hung a lot of things on over my career has been major gifts. Because at the end of the day when major gifts, which by the way, another podcast is us talking about the fact that we probably should not be calling it major gifts anymore. But anyway, right? Jay's looking at me like, wait, what?
- [47:30]
Unknown
Yeah. No, no, say something about that. I think that's important.
- [47:33]
Martha Schumacher
I mean, you know, Simone Joao, may she rest in peace, she often said, well, wait, does that mean everything else is a minor gift? You know, why are we calling things major gifts? Because that implies everything else is minor. So I think it's always a good thing for us to keep revisiting. It's not like I have the magic answer, but in the context of when major gifts is at its best and when we are being less about, for example, donor centric, which I think is also in motion around what we're calling things and why we're calling them that. But when we're actually connecting, when a donor is connecting with us and the organization is important to them and there's a reason they're investing all of that, right? It has to keep coming back to building relationships and connecting with people. And so I think that's probably why it just was such a natural thing for me to go. To be drawn to that, to go to that. Because. Because community, which is what I feel like we're talking more and more about, especially right now. Community. That's what it is. That is the idea of having deep connections with people and making sure that we're thinking through why are we connecting what matters to them, what matters to us, and kind of having a meeting of the minds on that. And I think the other thing I just wanted to say about all of this, which goes to maybe even beyond your question or your comment, is I have this. I mentioned the acronym HAM earlier, and I am going to mention another acronym that I really believe in, which is there is this whole idea of. And I think we, by the way, talked about this on the pre. Call. Yes, folks, Jay and I talked a little before we got on. Started recording. Recording is this acronym I love, which is tea. And it's transparency, empathy, authenticity. Okay? And so. And it could also be eat, but I like tea better. But. And I. And I love having acronyms because, you know, when Jay and I did the active listening podcast, you know, I had a lot of acronyms because I feel like all of us. And I include myself in this remember thing. Things better and more easily that way. Why am I bringing this up? I'm bringing this up around. We keep talking about soft skills, okay? So when we come back to this community, to making connections to major, you know, all these things around building connections with people and building Community, with people. If we are not leading with t. If we are not leading with transparency, empathy and authenticity, I think we're doing everyone, including ourselves, a disservice. And I think especially the way of the world right now, we have this great opportunity to do that, to try in every possible way we can to lead with those three things and to make it about how do we connect with people, including people that we don't always see eye to eye with in terms of certain issues. So, anyway, I wanted to bring it back to that because I think that's. That's really. You brought up the theme here around what my career has been and why. And it's like to me that that's why things like bringing your family and friends in to help you, you know, think about what your business should look like, how you connect with your professor, as you said, how you connect with. And in this case now. Right. For almost 22 years, how I'm connecting with, for example, my clients. Right. And I always say to folks, when they're looking at who they're going to work with, really think about the chemistry, think about whether there's a value alignment there in terms of how you operate, because that's going to really have a lot to do with how well you're able, how much you're able to achieve. I was about to say succeed. And everybody, I think, defines success differently, but how you're going to be able to achieve the goals you're looking to achieve. And I know for me, there have been times this even actually happened recently where I will get to a place where I'll realize, you know what, this is going to be a great. This is going to be a great client, you know, consultant relationship, and it's going to be for someone else. You know, it's just, it's not going to be for me in this. And this is something I know over 22 years, obviously you learn. But anyway, so.
- [52:23]
Unknown
Yeah, well, you know, I could have asked you for a Cliff Notes version of the past 22 years, but I think that would be. I. Unfair to you and to what you built. But I. But I would like to ask you. It sounds like you're describing something which is kind of a cornerstone or foundational principle of what you do.
- [52:38]
Martha Schumacher
Yes.
- [52:38]
Unknown
So when you look back over what you've been doing at the office.
- [52:45]
Martha Schumacher
Quote, unquote. Yeah.
- [52:46]
Unknown
Right. Over the last couple of decades, how would you summarize it?
- [52:52]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah. Well, I think. I think this might be a good moment to share a quick story. And then I Also, just want to make sure, because I know we've already been on a while and we may be wrapping up soon. I don't know, whenever you're ready, obviously. But I also wanted to just make sure I shared kind of where I am today and when I'm looking forward to where kind of my priorities are at this point, after all this time that I've been involved in this sector, in this really important sector. But I think this story may help sum up a little bit, the answer to your question, which is when I was at Defenders, my very first donor visit at Defenders was with someone who was actually working on the Hill. It was interesting. She had a lot of family wealth, but she had actually made the decision that she wanted to work on the Hill, and she was working a very substantial role for a particular congressperson. And so she was so busy that I offered to come to her and go down to. And again, for those in D.C. you'll know this reference to the cafeteria below Rayburn on the Hill. You know, not exactly the sexy place people might think about. You meet at some, you know, lovely restaurant, whatever, for a donor vacation. Nope. This was my very first donor visit, Defenders. And it was literally going through the cafeteria line, you know, in Rayburn. So we're. We're going through, and we get close to the register, and I've got my big drink on the tray, and it's, you know, sitting there on the tray. It was probably iced tea, knowing me, and I managed to spill it all over my doter's tray and all over my tray. Okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, you gotta love this. Okay. As you might imagine, mortified. Could not have been more mortified. Absolutely beside myself. I was much, much younger, too. Like, I'm not saying today it wouldn't bother me, but I don't think it would bother me anywhere near as much today as it did then. Right. So anyway, just apologize. Apologize, apologize. Okay. So that person, you know, has been a enviro funder donor just forever, you know, for, let's say, 40, 50 years. Just amazing. And we have stayed in touch. She claims to this day she doesn't remember that incident. And by the way, she probably doesn't like, for her, it probably just was like one little thing in her very large life. Right? But of course, I remember it to this day. But I'm telling this story besides the fact that I want people to know, hey, I've had, you know, a fair amount of, I think people might say, success. Major Gibson yet. That was literally my first, you know, Major Donor visit for Defenders. And so if that happened, anyone could do this job. Okay. So that's part of why I'm telling you, but the other reason I'm telling it is more in response to your question, which is that just this. A few months ago, I was privileged enough to go with a client on a donor trip to Indonesia. Okay. Incredible. I had never been there. It was amazing trip. And that donor was on that trip, if you can even imagine that. And so it was, like, coming full circle. And that connection that I had with her, it's still there. And, you know, she's been a leader. She's been on boards. You know, she's been in leadership roles of enviro boards, et cetera. But I guess what I'm just saying about this is like, you know, that to me was. It was just this. It's kind of this, you know, like, it's just. It was a really profound moment for me in my career. And it kind of, I think, sums up a lot of, you know, just the journey or the, you know, the journey and trajectory that I've been on. I mean, it's just. Yeah. Kind of incredible. And by the way, we just completely, like. It was like, you know, old home week. I mean, we just connected, you know, a thousand percent in that moment on that trip. So.
- [57:10]
Unknown
Thank you for spilling the tea about. Spilling the tea. That's.
- [57:16]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah. And look like that. It had. Thank you. First of all, that's hilarious. I feel like that should be, like. I don't know, that should be the snippet from our time together, as you say that. But it also. It does actually. Right. It brings that. Transparent. You know, I was being transparent with her. She was being empathetic with me. Me. We were both being authentic with each other, you know, like, it just kind of sums it all up. Right. So.
- [57:41]
Unknown
And I guess that. So. And the cornerstone of that is this trust, I suppose, because if you're trust.
- [57:47]
Martha Schumacher
100%, maybe that's the other T. Right. But maybe it takes T to get to trust. I don't know. Yeah. Trust. For sure. Trust is everything, right, Jay? It's everything. Yeah.
- [58:00]
Unknown
So I guess it kind of brings us to where we are. And I know you wanted to talk about. And I wanted to ask. Ask you.
- [58:05]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah.
- [58:06]
Unknown
About as you look forward. But we are at a very particular moment in time, and it's an important moment. I don't know that this moment, unlike some of the things we talked about before, like reintroducing the wolves, I don't know that we're going to forget this for a while. So when you think about where we are, everything that you've learned and practiced and the relationships you built, and then you look forward, but from this particular moment in the time.
- [58:33]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah.
- [58:35]
Unknown
How are you feeling about that? What kind of hope do you harbor? And how are you trying to continue to practice what you do, not just for yourself and your business, of course, but also for all the people that you obviously care about who have been there with you this whole way?
- [58:48]
Martha Schumacher
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, when I. When I think about how I. How I kind of initially got drawn into advocacy, I have to thank my mother because another thing she was doing. I still don't know how my parents did all these things I shared with you and raised four kids. Yeah, I just. And especially mom, like I said, but she actually worked on the Equal Rights Amendment, so she worked on the ERA for many, many years when I was quite young, quite small. And I literally remember being, like, at the kitchen table. I mean, it's such a vivid memory. Stuffing mailers, you know, trying to get as much information out as possible to as many people. And then, of course, you know, it didn't. It didn't pass. Right. It failed. And I remember one night, mom coming home. It was maybe the only time my whole life I really saw mom break down in tears. You know, she was just devastated because she, of course, along with millions of other women and men, you know, had worked to try to pass this. I bring that up because I think that when I really think about, well, where did kind of the whole. Whole advocacy begin for me, I think it was there. As young as I was, I got it, why this was so important. And so I think that kind of fueled that fire early on in terms of where we are today. I think what I'm trying to do at this point is a few things. One of the things I. I'm doing with my business is I am investing as much as I possibly can in any given year in supporting rising leaders, and particularly rising leaders who are people of the global majority. So I am doing things like funding a scholarship to two scholarships to icon, two to lead. So far, we've had six scholarship recipients through Hazen and Hilt. And I feel good about that, by the way. I'm always a little uncomfortable sharing that because I never, ever want to come off as virtue signaling, as, oh, look at me. But what I've been convinced of recently by some of the people I trust most, and especially those people I trust so much, who are people of the global majority are telling me, no, you need to like, you need to tell people you're doing that so that others will join in. Yeah, so that's why I'm sharing that. And I will also say that beyond those scholarships, I'm also funding as many kind of organizations and even movements. I mean, things like I'll just give a shout out to ccf, you know, I'm a monthly donor to the community centric fundraising movement, and I have been for years, you know, so wherever I can, and as much as I can and, and as much of my net assets as I can devote to that, that's where I am. I will say that in this moment. Getting back to the core of your question, at this moment in time, people of the global majority are particularly under fire here in this country. It's just becoming, I think, even more important that in every possible way, big and small, I and others, hopefully in. In our sector can continue to do everything we possibly can to support in particular, people of the global majority. It's very challenging. And I would say that one of the best, probably most comprehensive lists out there of ways that people can help is something that Vu put out, Voule put out on his nonprofit site in February. And it's a. It's a list of literally 41 things people can do. What I would tell people who go check that out is don't get overwhelmed. Don't think, oh my goodness, if I don't do all 41 of these right now, because then you're going to shut down and you're not going to do any of them. So look at that list and grab two or three things. By the way, almost everything on there is something meaningful yet, you know, not going to take you hundreds of hours or even an hour probably. So just find two or three things on that list and do them. And it's everything from calling your congressperson, but it's also things like supporting your local business. I mean, there is just kind of a little bit of everything on that list. So I really encourage people to check that out because it's a way to, again, make a difference difference and support folks without going down that rabbit hole and then feeling like, oh, it's just too much because at the risk of. And this will be probably the most political I'll get today on this. At the risk of sounding a little bit partisan here, I do believe that there are certain folks that that's what the goal is, right, Is for us to kind of get so overwhelmed that we don't try to do anything. And I think the last thing I'll say is I' also trying to do everything I can specifically around the threats to our sector that are happening right now with everything, including what the National Council of Nonprofits is working on, so legislation that is threatening things like nonprofit tax exempt status. I'm also trying to do everything I can to fight for that because I think we need to bring it back to that to today is, you know, this is why you and I are sitting here is that we're, we're, you know, nonprofit sector champions and there are some real, you know, tangible threats right now to this sector.
- [64:51]
Unknown
You've got a lot on that list and it's so helpful because it's so concrete and also explains where you are on kind of my last personal question. So what's next for Martha? What's your next Billy Goat Trail?
- [65:06]
Martha Schumacher
I love it. I love it. I mean certainly continuing these scholarships, I can't even tell you. As you no doubt know, I have been to, I don't know, maybe 30, maybe 25 icons and it's so great to be able to now go and to be able to spend a little time with frankly they're out running around, I'm out running around around. But you know, like it's kind of given me new energy and new life around being an icon and lead and having these scholarship recipients who by the way, I should have said maybe it goes without saying it's their first, you know, icon or their first lead. You know, this is their first experience like this and getting that support and not just networking for networking sake, but really again we're back to community and being a part of that community. So I, that's really, that's igniting me right now in terms of looking forward. I think probably one of the biggest things I'm focused on right now is that I'm doing a little bit more training, presenting, coaching and a little bit less day to day consulting. That said, the day to day consulting I think remains extremely important because I for one, and this is just my personal take, feel that to be able to be the most effective prisoners center coach, trainer, you still need to be very involved with, engaged in and a part of the non profits that are doing the work on the ground. You know, like, I think if you get too far away from that, you then maybe as a presenter or trainer aren't, aren't necessarily, you know, keeping your finger on the pulse of what's really happening. So I don't think in my career I'll ever not be consulting. I just am finding that it's really helpful as a multiplier to be out doing a little bit more training, a little bit more presenting and coaching. So I think that's a bit of a shift little by little as I move forward.
- [67:01]
Jay Frost
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about Martha Schumacher and her work@hazeninc.com our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the world leader in AI powered fundraising intelligence solutions for the nonprofit World World. Our producer is Jack Frost and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise and come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.