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The PM Podcast
They Let Themselves Be Free: A Conversation with Debra Des Vignes, A Top Five 2025 CNN Hero
00:37:00
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- [00:01]
A
As a volunteer, you realize that everybody really is one mistake away from potentially being in a situation similar to them. So I built empathy and I realized that I was gaining a lot during that process. My perception was changing and I was becoming softer.
- [00:21]
B
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders and innovators and changemakers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost, recognized as one of the top five CNN heroes of 2025. Deborah Devines is the founder and executive director of the Indiana Prison Writers Workshop, a nonprofit dedicated to transforming the lives of incarcerated individuals through the power of creative writing. Launched in 2018 after her decade long career as a crime reporter, the project began as a single 12 week class inside one Indiana prison and has since expanded across eight correctional facilities in multiple states. Through writing, reflection and community, Deborah is giving people behind bars a chance to reclaim their voices one story at a time. Deborah, thank you so much for being willing to talk about, of course, your organization, but also also your journey. It's really a pleasure to meet you.
- [01:23]
A
Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [01:26]
B
I discovered you of course, through CNN Heroes, which is wonderful. It's a wonderful program, a way of identifying people who are doing great work. But the work that you do really is unique in the sector. I know there are various people working with incarcerated populations, not always as writers.
- [01:44]
A
Right.
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B
Where did your own personal writing journey begin? Sure.
- [01:49]
A
So my personal writing journey began when I was in the fifth grade. I was living in Dallas, Texas and my fifth grade teacher suggested her students write, keep a journal, and she was going to look over it. And so that exercise assignment really turned into a lifelong passion and hobby of journaling and writing. I was able to get my thoughts out and release pent up emotions. I moved a lot as a kid from my parents jobs and I always felt like the outcast and the outsider coming into a new school and so holding and hugging my journal closely and writing was very therapeutic for me.
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B
You traveled around a lot. What were your parents doing that you were traveling? Where did you go?
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A
Yeah, my dad worked. He's retired now, contract engineer. So it was, you know, a few years in one state, a few years in another state. Lived in Plano, Texas probably for the longest. I went to high school at Plano east, lived in Virginia, Maryland, Colorado, Florida, and then in my career as a TV reporter, then traveled, traveled some more. So I've always felt like a nomad in a way. But home is where you hang your Hat. So that's my. My theory.
- [03:14]
B
Right. And I guess if you have a place to hang your hat in your journal, it makes it a little bit easier. What was the significance once you got past the teacher assigning it? What was the significance of that journal and the writing as. As it took on a life of its own?
- [03:28]
A
It did take on a life of its own. You know, I've, like I said, I've been. Been writing since. And so that over the decades, the stacks of journals, I. I've moved them from state to state wherever I go. And yeah, you know, it's been a good reflection opportunity for me and just to get. Get out my thoughts of the day and be able to look back and say, wow, that year or few years or decade, you know, I was. I was this or I presented as this, or I overcame in this way, or, you know, I was. Was coasting in a sense, in some years. And so it's really helped in a lot of ways, but mainly it's been able to provide kind of a life review to be able to look back and say, okay, I've felt this, done this, traverse this, and now I want to do this, or now my next growth point should be this. And so it's been kind of a guiding light in how I've lived my life writing and journaling. In that sense.
- [04:36]
B
Journaling, I guess by definition is nonfiction, or at least I would imagine it would be. But that doesn't always mean that we end up as writers writing the thing that we write in our journals. We might draw from it. But where did your writing take you in terms of genre?
- [04:52]
A
Yeah, you know, when I became older, when I was interested in fiction and wrote just for my own activity or my own exercise, is a lot of humor writing and just short stories of life and, you know, making sure that I was able to be creative. And so, yeah, I was always writing and just always had a. Had a knack for creativity and imagination. I think as a kid as well. I would always imagine what else was out there in the world. I was very ambitious and imaginative and super creative as a kid. And so writing and journaling expanded into humor writing and imaginative writing and the essence of creative writing.
- [05:45]
B
So is that how you ended up finding a home in journalism or how did that journey take place?
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A
I think so. I think telling stories, learning about others, being curious. I was after high school, I didn't really have a clear direction on what my path should be as far as an occupation and was living in Los Angeles at the time. I took A gap year from high school to college. And was living out in Beverly Hills. Not in Beverly Hills, but in Burbank, kind of, you know, floating around and exploring and that type of thing. Perfect for my, you know, 20s or young 20s. And decided that I definitely needed to go to college. And so enrolled in political science at Cal State Northridge and still was undecided for the first year and lucked out on an internship at ABC7 in Los Angeles, which is huge. It was just this big honor. And I'll never forget, I went to. I think it was Nordstrom's or Macy's or wherever and got the most expensive, nicest suit for this interview. And it was about two sizes, two big. But I still was. Was really proud of that moment. And on the way, I think there was an issue with my car and someone had to drive me to the interview, which was unusual. A co worker. And so I landed a paid apprenticeship at ABC7. And it was a turning point, really. It set me down my path. Right. The path that I was going to take next. And again, I still didn't know I wanted to be a journalist. I knew that the newsroom was a vibrant place. It was very chaotic, yet intriguing, yet, you know, all of the things that. That made me who I was. Just kind of just living on the edge type adventure and. Yeah. And then I just. Some. Some folks in the newsroom and leadership suggested I pursue TV reporting and suggested I put a tape together, an audition tape for other markets. And I did. And my first on air role was in Pocatello, Idaho.
- [08:06]
B
Pocatello, Idaho. So from one of the major markets in LA to there, that must have been quite a transition. I know you'd moved all around, all over the place, but that is unique. So what did you end up doing there?
- [08:18]
A
It was actually, looking back now, it was fantastic. It was very quiet. But my main story is I covered the annual rodeo.
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B
So. Okay. Had you ever been to a rodeo before?
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A
No.
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B
No.
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A
It was great news. Was slow, but it was. It was peaceful. And I actually enjoyed the rodeo because of my roots from Texas. And I fell into step, but it was a lot of learning.
- [08:52]
B
All right, so when you're writing for yourself, whether it's as a kid in class or in your journal at home, it's you talking to you. When you're going out and interviewing somebody, you're doing a very different job. And for those who don't know what that's like, what was it like for you to start and to start in a place that you really didn't know. Asking people you really didn't know about their lives.
- [09:17]
A
Naturally I'm shy and I'm an introvert. And so that was really something I needed to overcome is to have the microphone and ask them personal questions. So yeah, it was hard at first knowing that it came easier to other reporters, but for me it did not. But it just took courage and compassion to put a microphone in front of someone's face and ask them sometimes very personal questions if you know if it was crime related or heartwarming story of a child who was overcoming an illness. But you really just put yourself in their shoes and really just be compassionate and ask the questions in a sensitive way. And then you go back and you edit it in a sensitive way. It's storytelling, but it's true stories. It's real people, it's real life. It can be heavy being a reporter and asking those questions and learning because you're really a subject matter on all of those topics, whether it's a court case or a crime or you know, a new traffic stop in the neighborhood. And so I really loved the research part of journalism is just learning as much as I could about each topic. That really is who I am at the core. Inside is just a lifelong learner, always learning. So no, it came to me eventually, I think after my first market, which was Pocatello, Idaho, then I went on to Thomasville, Georgia, but the station was located in Tallahassee, Florida and then Birmingham, Alabama. So all of those. And each time each market was a different, was, was more intense and you know, more, more eyes. The audience was, was a, was a higher volume of audience. And I began to cover more crime stories. In Thomasville, Georgia. I covered a lot of drug busts and general crime. And then Birmingham was really heavy crime stories.
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B
How did that come about? Why crime? Is that just where they assigned you or did you find that you had an interest in that beat?
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A
Both. As a young child, when I was in the fifth and sixth grade, I did always enjoy watching, you know, kid appropriate type of crime mysteries. And I always dove into crime mysteries. I was somewhat of a reader, I'm more of a reader now than I was when I was a kid. But 100% mysteries. Solving, solving mysteries was, was, was ingrained in me as a child. Not from, you know, outside influences, just for me gave me enjoyment. And so it really didn't surprise me that I was good at and more passionate about covering crime. And then they, that's what they ended up assigning me. Not because I was good at It. But I really, to be honest, I worked the morning shift, which was 3am to 1, and a lot of the overnight crimes that happened, they needed a reporter to cover. And that just naturally fell on me as that was my shift. So it's not that I was great at it. It just fell into my lap. And I loved, loved covering that because I got to work with law enforcement closely the victims and I reported on men and women who had committed the crime. And I was always interested in their stories. What was his or her childhood like? And I kind of bookmarked that in Birmingham. I remember the exact moment covering someone being sentenced and watching him walk down the halls in the courtroom and thinking to myself, I would love to be in his head to learn more about him and what he was thinking about. And strangely enough, 20 years later, I had created this creative writing workshop for inmates and I was literally given the keys to their inner thoughts.
- [13:42]
B
I'm wondering what it was like for you at that time when, especially when you're doing stories at 3am and I don't know if you were doing them solo or if you had a team.
- [13:51]
A
I had a photographer. Luckily, it could get pretty scary at that hour.
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B
Yeah. And you said you were passionate about it, which I imagine you were to do that kind of work. But you also had to be dispassionate about the stories. But then at some level, like you just said, when you see the person walking down and they're about to get sentenced, or maybe they have been sentenced and you're trying to read their face and their thoughts, that's not something that's very easy to be dispassionate about.
- [14:17]
A
Right. I was always passionate about it. I was always curious of their lives and lifestyles and how they ended up in that space.
- [14:29]
B
Did you ever have a chance to start asking those questions? Or if you did, were they the kinds of things that could even make it on the air?
- [14:36]
A
Oh, no, I did not ask those questions. Wanted to, but. But that wouldn't have been the story angle, because the story angle was very much you commit, you know, talking to the family. You committed the crime, he committed the crime or she committed the crime. So, no, it wouldn't have been part of the story. Never did ask, never had time to.
- [15:01]
B
It's more about what happened than why it happened, I guess, 100%. So now fast forward, you're doing all that work. At some point you stopped. What caused you to stop doing work? Yeah, tv, which a lot of people think, wow, that's great, you're A star. But it was very hard work that you're doing in these markets. What caused you to make a shift.
- [15:27]
A
So the daily grind of it and a changing landscape of news. When I was a reporter, it was, we had an editor, we had a photographer, so we had a team that enhanced the brand and enhanced the story and enhanced everything that complemented everything. And then when things were changing and I realized they probably wouldn't unchanged when, when we call it one man banding, where you're doing it all, you're taping, you're, you're interviewing, you're, you're shooting your own stand ups and then you're editing, then you're back on the air. Sometimes the quality can falter a little when one person's doing it all. So, so yeah, I think the, the daily grind and, and all of it. And, and I got out and did what most, what most a majority of reporters do. I went into PR and marketing for nonprofits.
- [16:22]
B
Oh, wow. That, that, that is kind of a leap. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know that most people who were in reporting did that. It was that largely an effect of the changing landscape of journalism which we hear about on the outside, but we have not, most of us have not experienced.
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A
That's exactly right.
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B
Okay, so PR and marketing for nonprofits. And where were you doing that? Were you still then, then in the south or had you already moved up North?
- [16:47]
A
I was down in the South, I was in Birmingham. I took a wonderful job. My first job was more than amazing. It was at the Literacy Council of Central Alabama. And it was working with adults who struggled to read and needed literacy skills. And that really was, looking back, a bright spot in my life. I was able to use my, communicate my reporting skills in that communications role, writing newsletters, pitching stories to the media, doing social media. And so that was a really, really good fit and I definitely enjoyed that.
- [17:23]
B
I'm imagining also probably provided an avenue to understanding the roots of illiteracy and also their connections to then, you know, incarceration. I mean, one of the things we hear about sometimes is literacy or lack of literacy sometimes leads people into positions of vulnerability and then making certain decisions or having decisions foisted on them. Same thing with eyeglasses, which I know is correlated with incarceration. But where did you start to make this connection or start to think I can take this skill set and not only apply it to everybody, but to these people that you saw making that walk to be locked up.
- [18:04]
A
So a few years after that role in Birmingham, I moved with My family to Indianapolis, Indiana, and I was working at a homeless veterans nonprofit. And I was walking in the halls and struck up a conversation with one of the social workers on the team. And she had mentioned that her husband works at one of the prisons. And I told her, oh, I've always been interested in volunteering in some capacity in a prison. And she said, oh, you should give them a call and see what, what volunteer opportunities they have. And so I did. I called Plainfield Correctional, this was back in 2017. And when I called, they said, okay, we have these. They ran off the list, these opportunities, and frankly, none of them sounded interesting. There was one, the victim impact class. And I said, okay, I'll do that. And it was pretty. I didn't really think about it too much. I just kind of said that that sounds, you know, as interesting as the other, as more than the others. And within the next month or two, I was leading a statewide curriculum, already designed curriculum. It was a six week course where you use a workbook and the men, it was 10 to 15 men, discuss and document the impact of their crime or a crime, what that would look like for the victim. And so it was important work. Yes. Though I decided to go off script towards the very end and said, let's put that down and let's write. I said, what would you tell your victim? I said, we're not going to mail it. It's just a writing exercise. And what I realized in that 15 minute writing exercise was that there was a lot of extremely amazing raw talent in the room. Just budding writers and writers who were very vulnerable and expressive. And I could tell that they were good storytellers, they had good stories to tell. And I thought that was my aha moment. I said, well, maybe I could create a creative writing curriculum. I'd never created a curriculum before, really had no idea what I was doing and. And emailed the volunteer facilitator, I think that night when I got home, because I was leading, it was an evening class. And she responded the next day and said they would be receptive to it. Just, you know, make sure, you know, I include, you know, send it to her for approval. And within the next two weeks, I went about creating a 12 week creative writing workshop for prisoners. So that's how that started.
- [20:47]
B
You've described the process, but I'd love to know how it felt for you because you are on the outside covering these stories. I don't know if you'd been into prisons before to cover those stories.
- [20:58]
A
No, I had never been into Prison. I had always been on the outside with my finger kind of pointing to the sign. The first few times, again, it was about a six week class. The first three times it was, it was intimidating. You hear, you know, the doors shut very loudly and just the sounds of the keys. I mean as a writer and someone who takes in my environment wherever I go, it was very kind of over visually stimulating. I wasn't nervous in the sense of safety and security. It was just a lot to process. And who were these men? How were they going to perceive me? You know, then you think about all the training, you know, a volunteer does. You have a lot going on in your mind or. I did. And the first, you know, two or three weeks was just, you know, I was nervous really. And then towards week four or five, things began to settle down in my kind of being and I realized they're just people. They're, they're, they're, you know, they're just, they're very vulnerable. They've fallen on hard times and, or whatever their circumstances had been. Not to make excuses, but you really see the humanity in each person and you just as a volunteer, you realize that everybody really is one mistake away from potentially being in a situation similar to them. So you, you, you. I built empathy and I realized that I was gaining a lot during, you know, my, my perception was changing and I was becoming softer in a good way.
- [22:48]
B
What do you mean? What do you mean by that? What was happening?
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A
My personality is very much analytical and, you know, very much analytical. And so I am guilty of. Not guilty, not a great word, but of not being as vulnerable as I could in everyday life. And so seeing and watching these men be vulnerable, it really was a lot to process and it gave me the courage to also be vulnerable in my own world.
- [23:24]
B
On the app, this is going to sound like a crazy question, but there's something unique about the vulnerability of a writing workshop for those who haven't been in one. But you're in a place where everyone is locked up different amounts of time for different reasons, but they can't go anywhere. They've gotten to know you, but now you're asking them to open up their innermost lives for you. So there are two parts to this. First, what was that like for you and for them? And second, these are all men being vulnerable. And in writing, maybe for the first time, what was that like for you and for them?
- [24:07]
A
The first piece of the first question, the feeling was just a unique feeling. I was kind of at just running on all cylinders. I was Just in my happy place when everything started, I was most creative, most inquisitive. And hearing them and witnessing them being at their most vulnerable was something I had not expected.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah. So does something stick out from that time since that was the first instance? A person who told a story that really kind of was transformative, not just for them, but maybe for you as you took this journey.
- [24:55]
A
So that first class that I had, the curriculum is designed for 12 weeks. And so the 12 weeks, that's it. So do you continue on with the new group or what does that look like? I was so moved by the 10 to 12 men in the first class that we had class every Sunday for a year. So we surpassed the design of the curriculum of the 12 weeks. Yes, the first class, Indiana prison Writers Workshop would not be around if it had not been for that first class. Because they were such strong storytellers. I just really lucked out. And they had so much talent and unique personalities and they came out in the writing. And it was. It was a little, not a little family, but it was a tight knit group and we were. I would describe this to people. It was almost as if we were at a coffee shop together on the outside. And we had known each other for a while and they would really just let themselves be free with any sort of short story, whether it was poetry, nonfiction or fiction. And the storytelling was nothing I had ever expected. It was just on a different level of talent. One person would write about their grandmother's favorite recipe. Another person wrote about trying times growing up as a kid in inner city. Another wrote about reflecting on the decades he had served in prison and now had still five years or so, and what his hopes and dreams were. So it was a lot of goals and visioning and envisioning what the future would look like. Some just wrote about favorite cars or something, but their personalities came out and there was a lot of camaraderie in the room. So that was very unique because they would stand up and read their stories aloud. So there was a lot of uniqueness of things that I didn't. And a lot of people said, you know, now I have a closer relationship with my son who's on the outside because I'm now writing to him in more confidence and more vulnerability, in a more meaningful way. That was a big thing. A lot of, like I said, people having. Forming closer relationships with their immediate family and being held accountable. What was surprising to me too is a lot of, not a lot. Some had gone through life sort of skating by and accountability was not Something that was big in their lives. And so I said, you know, these are. This is your assignment from week after week. You have to do this. And they did. And they commented on being held accountable. Really added structure to their lives. And for me, I've always had structure in my life. So that was kind of a foreign concept of not having that. So I learned so much about different people.
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B
I'm curious if you have heard from those people after a whole year together. Like you said, it could have been in a coffee shop. It just happened to be inside those walls. But they have been changed also by the experience. What has the communication been like since?
- [28:25]
A
I would say eight of the 12 or nine of the 12 were all still in communication. So it was as a volunteer, you have to abide by. You wait till they're released before you're able to be in contact with them. And so all of them from the first class, one passed away in prison due to natural causes, but all of them had been released. And they remain in contact with one another, and they remain in contact with Indiana Prison Writers Workshop.
- [28:55]
B
I wonder if they're still writing as well.
- [28:58]
A
They are all. Yep, most. Most of most or all of them are still writing. And I was able to. The workshop was able to provide them opportunities to do speaking engagements at universities in Indiana to share their work. So that was after their release, their individual releases. There were some opportunities back in, you know, 2019, 2020. So they've been. They were able to use their skills on the inside and showcase them on the outside. We had a writing, an art event.
- [29:32]
B
And this is a. It must have been an amazing experience for you in the sense that when you're on air, you've got an audience, but you aren't necessarily hearing from them unless somebody writes you a letter or an email. But with this, it's an audience of what, 10 or 12 people. But you are seeing into their eyes, into their souls every day. And then you're probably hearing from them, as you just said, for years. That's a big change. And I'm sure it informed what you decided to do next. So is that where you kicked off the organization? Talk about the founding, because this is now. Is it 2018, when you founded the organization?
- [30:12]
A
Right. So after that year, About September, from 17 to September 18 in September 18, after that first full year of that first class, I said, this feels rewarding. And one of who's now a board member contact at the time said, why don't I help you become a 501? I said, well, I Don't know about all that. That seems really a lot. I said, what if we got a fiscal agent? Or what if it just remained a program? And he said it a few times. And I said, well, well, maybe I was a bit resistant to the thought. Not that I was worried about failure or that it would be a lot of work. I just. I just didn't know if that was the right path to be a full fledged nonprofit. That seems. Seemed very big in scope. So we did that. He did that for me, and I thank him for that. And we then things really took off in a positive way with. With people interested in being part of the team, being a volunteer facilitator in other prisons across the state. We got some media attention, which was nice. And then Covid happened in 2020.
- [31:44]
B
Right.
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A
So that halted programming.
- [31:47]
B
You weren't able to enter the prisons probably at that point.
- [31:50]
A
Right. For about a year and a year. About a year and a half. A year. Year and a half. And so then there was another mark along the way where I thought, well, we could just stop the program. We could hold off and re. Enter the. Because we're still very new. Hold off, reenter when we figure out, you know, how that's going to look. Or we could pivot and add a different element to the program while staying true to the program, which is helping those who are incarcerated through creative writing and expression. So what we did, we didn't quit, we didn't pause, is we decided to have kind of an outside virtual class for those on the outside. And that didn't work as great as I'd hoped because they're less vulnerable on the screen on Zoom. And these are ex people who have been in prison who were in my class and out. And some spread the word and said, here's this person, here's that. So that didn't work as well. And then we think that was the main thing we tried. And then we all actually. We did also try working with a group of previously incarcerated individuals, and that. That worked nicely in Indiana. So then Covid's. Covid eases and we're back in.
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B
And.
- [33:06]
A
And I'm glad that I'm thankful now that I kept at it because that's when really things started to open up. So. Yeah.
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B
So how many places are you now and how many people are working with you?
- [33:19]
A
I was just going to say that. So in 2022, I got a call from a contact in Alabama. He said, how about you bring your program here? And I thought, whoa, that's going to take Decades or years. And within two months having gone, made the trip, we were open, we were, we were offering programming in Alabama prison. So now we are in four states with up to nine to 10 facilitators, you know, in a select number of prisons and got, you know, haven't gotten a few grants. Since we're a nonprofit, we rely on donations that provide composition notebooks and stipends to facilitators who do the work. So yeah, now we're bigger than we were.
- [34:05]
B
And I know that in journalism, probably for a short time there anyway, you were a one man band, as you said, but then you are also as a nonprofit originally, but now you have a whole team of people. How many people are working with you?
- [34:18]
A
So up to nine currently we're bit slimmer, we're about five. Well, with the board members, we're about five to eight people.
- [34:27]
B
Yeah. And it looks like from the website, like there are a lot of women working in this and I know a lot of people incarcerated are men, but not only men. So are you working with both incarcerated women and men at this point or.
- [34:39]
A
We are, yes. We tried to get into a few women's correctional facilities and some said that they were good with the programming lineup that they had. So that's why we're in more male facilities is that they really express great need for programming. We are in one woman's facility and that's in Montgomery, Alabama.
- [35:03]
B
As you look at all this now and you think back to when you were covering it as a journalist, what's the biggest difference between your perception then and your perception now of the people there, but also what the opportunities are for? I don't know, helping them find a new path.
- [35:22]
A
Hmm. I think back then I didn't, I didn't have more of a. As an open heart as I should have, but I was more covering the story of what needed to be covered. And I think the takeaway, or I hope the takeaway from, from this opportunity with you is, is that others recognize the importance and power of giving back in a volunteer capacity in whatever cause that they're passionate about. It could be homelessness, it could be food insecurity. Any, any cause, any nonprofit. All the nonprofits I know value volunteers who are sharp and willing and able to give back.
- [36:07]
B
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about the Indiana Prison writers workshop@inprisonwritersworkshop.org to vote for the CNN Hero of the Year, go to www.cnn.com World Heroes. Our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the global leader in AI powered fundraising intelligence solutions for the nonprofit sector. Our producer is Jack Frost and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise. And come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.