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- [00:00]
Jim Langley
And a lot of people are making money dividing us. Let's say we're at a big state park where lots of family reunions are going on on one side of a river or a creek, people from red states, on the other side, people from blue states. And we look askance at each other. There's a river between us. The river's growing. We're saying unkind things about each other. But let a child from any one of those families fall in that creek and see the current pick that child up and carry them closer to death, doom, damage. We don't care who jumps in the creek to save that child.
- [00:35]
Jay Frost
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost. Jim Langley is a leading voice in philanthropy and advancement. As president of Langley Innovations, he's helped hundreds of institutions rethink fundraising through research Driven strategies. A former advancement leader at Georgetown, UC San Diego, and Georgia Tech, he's led groundbreaking campaigns and shaped best practices in donor engagement. Through his books, articles and seminars, he continues to guide organizations in navigating the evolving world of philanthropy. In this conversation, we trace the arc of his life and work, starting with a visit to his hometown. Let's begin at the beginning.
- [01:25]
Jim Langley
Yes.
- [01:27]
Jay Frost
Where did you grow up? I don't know this. I know where you went to school, but I don't know where you're from.
- [01:32]
Jim Langley
Well, thank you for asking. So I just returned because I was in the neighborhood, oh, I don't know, a few months ago, you know, and at the stage of life where you're sort of reflecting on your journey and how you got to be who you are. So I went back to Johnstown, New York, and went to the house in which I was born in 1852, very simple wood frame house and in Johnstown, across from a Catholic church. And, you know, looked up family records, my birth record. Went to the, to the Bureau of Records or wherever it is that we go to get these things. Got my copy of my original birth certificate. And. And my father is listed as a guard at General Electric. He, he later went on to a career in public relations. So he went from being a guard to being promoted into the executive suite because he was a good writer and resourceful. But at the time, he's a guard. And you look at this simple house and you say there were five children and two adults in that house. And how on earth did that happen? But, you know, the Also, this sense of deep gratitude, of saying, that's where I was born. Those are the circumstances in which I was born. You know, no criticism of it, but, man, what a journey. What a journey since then. And I am so grateful for the. The journey, the hard parts, the easy parts, the curves, the. The pleasant passages. You just thought, what a journey. And who would have predicted? I mean, just sense of awe. I hope this doesn't sound egotistical, but that this kid, you know, born in a hospital in Gloversville because there was no hospital in Johnstown, New York, that this kid, the fifth of five children whose father was a guard at General Electric, would someday be hearing from people around the world about his observations on philanthropy and fundraising. It's just when you put it in that perspective, I can't be more grateful for whatever catapulted me forward, notwithstanding my. My shortcomings, and gave me such a rich life and gave me the opportunity, apparently, to contribute in a way that was meaningful to people in very different places.
- [03:57]
Jay Frost
What made you go back right now?
- [04:00]
Jim Langley
Oh, it was the funniest kind of thing. You know, they changed the restrictions on. So my passport lapsed during COVID And then, you know, then I realized I needed another one. I had to travel overseas. And they tightened the restrictions so you could no longer use a facsimile of, you know, that sort of generated birth certificate. I guess they've tightened the restrictions, and so you had to have a copy. Getting the copy electronically. Jay was so bureaucratic and so convoluted. I said, well, I got to be up there for. I was in another part of upstate New York. I got to be up there anyway, so I'm just going to drive over to Gloversville and get my purse ticket and drive to the house.
- [04:46]
Jay Frost
Had you been to the house before?
- [04:48]
Jim Langley
No, probably not. Gosh, at least 40 years, maybe the last time I saw it. And then, you know, very different circumstances. I think my children were young, and I wanted them to see it, and. But this time it was much more of a deepening, sobering, awakening experience, obviously, with the benefit of more years, you know, just. Just thinking about that journey. Just a little whimsical story that you'll enjoy because we lived across the street from a Catholic church, and this was the middle of the baby boom, right. You know, my age, right in the middle of the baby boom, there were always weddings, and so brides and grooms were always coming out of the steps of the church. So much so that I had a sister who, when she was about 6 or 7 when someone said, what do you want to do for a living? She said, I want to be a bride. Because she saw them coming out of church so regularly, she assumed it was somebody's job. You just, you know, every Saturday or Sunday you got dressed up in a beautiful outfit and. But anyway, I was just, I was so moved by that journey and by all the, the fascinating phenomenons of my. Of my life. Phenomena, I should say. Of my life.
- [06:06]
Jay Frost
Were you tempted to knock on the door?
- [06:08]
Jim Langley
No, I wasn't. That's interesting. I mean, I'll have to explore that from an emotional point of view. I wasn't. The simpleness of it told me everything. I could see that it had been reimagined, like it had been sort of recited in some ways, that new windows had been put in. But I sort of thought that's the past. And the outside was enough to remind me of the journey. The place, you know, Gloversville once was a glove leather capital of the world in that general area along the Mohawk river where were abundant textile factories that eventually moved south and then moved overseas. So it's this depressed economy. But how little it's changed, Jay, in that period of time is what's sobering. It's. It's about exactly the same place that I left.
- [07:00]
Jay Frost
You said you were the last of five.
- [07:03]
Jim Langley
Until I was 12. Until I was 12. And then we had. My mother had a perimenopausal surprise. Oh, my mother bore six children over 21 years, if you can imagine.
- [07:14]
Jay Frost
Oh, wow. It's a busy lady. Uh. And then they all went off into the world as well. Are any of them still there? Some families, you know, people stick close to home. Some go away.
- [07:26]
Jim Langley
No, because the, you know, the economy now. I have, you know, some distant relatives that are there. For instance, I have an aunt. We say. We said aunt. I don't mean to be pretentious in our family coming from upstate New York, have an aunt who's 101 as and when her husband died, decided to move into a convent. She was a devout. Is a Devout Catholic. She's 101. She's living in a convent. If you met her, Jay, you, I mean, she, her mind, her wit is as sharp as other ever, but she's the last remnant up there. And you know, the younger, by younger members of the tribe moved elsewhere because of jobs, education, etc. But you know, the, the landscape still evokes a lot for me. There's parts of upstate New York that are just incredibly beautiful. If anyone listening has gone to Fort Ticonderoga, not far from where I was born, where the St. Lawrence Seaway comes pouring into the Hudson River. I mean, if you haven't been and you ever get in that part of the world, drive there. Of course that's Lake George, it's the Adirondacks. There are just weepingly beautiful parts of it. So that's always wonderful to revisit.
- [08:40]
Jay Frost
And you're drawing a picture of this place and a big part of that is the church across the street and probably not just because of all those weddings. But was that also a part of your family? Because you just mentioned your aunt being in a convent.
- [08:51]
Jim Langley
So a Catholic family, Irish Catholic family, very devoutly Catholic. Very much a part of my upbringing. Jay observing the sacraments, regular attendance at church. Even my father resisting Vatican I, the change in the Mass, you know, he didn't, like he said it took the mystery away from the Mass of Latin Mass.
- [09:19]
Jay Frost
Yes, it did.
- [09:19]
Jim Langley
Sort of, you know, for the Catholics out there who remember this, you were saying things in Latin and they sounded ethereal and otherworldly and all of a sudden when you heard the translation, it sounded like, well, you know, go, the Mass is ended, or praise be to God. It didn't seem to have that same sort of grandeur or the mystery. But you know, the trade off was that it made it intelligible and accessible to more people. So I guess these are the inevitable trade offs of change.
- [09:47]
Jay Frost
Right. I'm sure that we'll touch on it again because if you were in a faith oriented family, especially one like the Catholic Church, where you are going to Mass, philanthropy or giving is a part of that, it's a part of volunteering is a big part of that. Do you remember that from early on?
- [10:08]
Jim Langley
Of course, yes. And, and, but, but you know, it's such an interesting question because my, my philanthropic side was opened up in some ways and I'm not quite sure why, but I remember of course, my father putting money in the offering basket and I remind, remember him writing checks to the church like around the end of the year. He was not, you know, because he also was of modest means, I think kind of scraped out a living. He gave regularly, routinely, religiously. But you know, I knew that there was a certain amount of pain with that, that it wasn't always easy for him to do that. So I observed that. And my father, without disparaging him in some ways, would not be described as otherwise generos generous or philanthropic. He would not. He was a very conservative mindset. And so he would tend to believe that most. Or it would look askance at most. Nonprofit organizations even sort of look at scans at people in need and wonder if they weren't doing enough to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. So you can imagine that generation that survives the Depression has a compassion for struggle and suffering, but also then sees others that follow them that seem to have more but want more. And it was very hard for him to reconcile, if we scraped by, with how little we had. And of course, that made him even skeptical of things like governmental support. Right. Again, I'm not defending that, but I'm trying to paint a picture of him. I developed a slightly different worldview because of a different journey, but that's how I was framed in very conservative, both politically conservative and religiously conservative, a family background. And my aunts and uncles were devout, strictly adhering Catholics. They. They had wonderful Irish sense of humor, but at core, they observed the sacraments and Catholicism and faith was the. The cornerstone of their lives. And.
- [12:25]
Jay Frost
And your mother.
- [12:26]
Jim Langley
Ah, so here's interesting. So my mother and I actually think this is where more of my personal philanthropy comes from, is my mother. I. I have to tell you the story, but. So my mother is the daughter of an Episcopalian minister. Now, for those of people who are familiar with their faith, Episcopalian isn't too far away from Catholic, right? Not too far. But at the time, you know, I'm born in 1952, and, you know, my mother had been married to my father for. Since, I think, 1941. 40. 41. If you wanted to raise the children, the woman converted to the faith of the father. And so while she converted to the faith, she was a little bit of insurrectionist in raising the children, in sort of challenging the strict orthodoxy of my father, which is probably good for the children. But I have to tell you, and I'll try not to get moved by this, because my father was doctrinaire. He was a very bright man, very creative, very resourceful. So, again, I want to do justice to him when speaking to a larger group. And I learned much from him, and he shaped my character in many ways. But my mother had this benevolence toward people. So she interpreted the world and she interpreted human beings very benevolent to me in a very benevolent way to me. So, for instance, I remember getting on public transportation as a boy bus. We were going downtown, which was like, you know, I don't know if you remember this, Jay. This was like a great occasion. My mother dressed up and. Oh, I mean, it was exciting to go downtown. Right. And so we got on a bus and. And, you know, you find a seat next to somebody. So my mother and I couldn't find two seats together. So I start to sit sort of adjacent from her. And I look over and there's this old man, and he's got one of these faces. It's just creased and lined and cracked, you know, like, I guess now I would imagine somebody who probably worked hard outside and maybe even had some personal struggles along the way, whether it was alcohol or something else, but it was a hard face. And I almost kind of recoiled from him because I had not seen a face like that. And so off the bus, you know, she takes my hand. Jimmy, she says. Always called me Jimmy or when I was in trouble, James Michael. He said, jimmy, that man's face has character. That's a man who's lived a hard, tough life. That's characteristic. And so when you see something like that, don't pull back from that. Try to lean into that to understand that journey and how that man became who he was. She said, don't value beauty. Always gravitate to character. Never forgot it.
- [15:17]
Jay Frost
Wow, that's.
- [15:19]
Jim Langley
Never forgot it.
- [15:20]
Jay Frost
What a lesson for great lessons.
- [15:22]
Jim Langley
Oh, and she would do that. Like, in the. You know, we moved because my father was transferred to Virginia. So then we moved from upstate New York. I had never seen a black person. And I kept hearing about colored people, which is how they were described at the time, Right. So I go to Roanoke, Virginia, where he's been transferred, and I keep looking for these colored people. I can't find them anywhere, but I keep looking for them. And then I realize they're brown people that they're talking about are colored people. So that was like, oh, just showed you how unexposed I was to the wider diversity. So imagine what it's like to be in Roanoke, Virginia, in the late 1950s. Segregated facilities. You know, you see this great dividing line. You see poverty around the Catholic Church, largely black, and then the suburbs being populated by, you know, people from coming from all places to build a new and expanded GE plant. And so there's this great, again, awareness that I'm going into a different world. But my mother's interpretation, not just of current events and changing legal circumstances or the civil rights movement in a historic sense, but my mother's interpretation of the human beings that we meet and pointing out the goodness in their character was huge. You see how intelligent that man is? Do you see how sweet that. And kind that woman is? She was always saying, do you see this What Lincoln called the better angels of our nature. And other people.
- [16:53]
Jay Frost
Well, especially if you had no knowledge of people from different backgrounds at that age. And then suddenly you're in a society where not only are there people who have a different background from yours, but they are being separated from one another. Yes, it must have been very confusing to a young person who didn't have an explanation for that. And then your mother sounds like she provided an antidote to whatever kinds of explanation you might have gotten from those around you.
- [17:22]
Jim Langley
Yes. I mean, separated is a nice way to put it because the segregation was they were afforded lesser public accommodations. And so we would go to. There would be public pools and no black people allowed in those pools. And as a child, when you aren't embedded with any of what gets embedded in some people simply by virtue of the culture or place in which they're born, which isn't to say, you know, there isn't. We don't have trouble with race and all kinds of issues in all parts of the country, but it just jumped. The contrast jumped out. And then think about that, Jay, of all the things that influenced my upbringing, would be watching how dramatically it changed from 1952 to 1964, when we moved to Cincinnati, then 64 in Cincinnati, riots break out. But Cincinnati is a progressive town. Most of the city councils led by Black people in 1960s. But there's still that tension. There's all this, you know, built up frustration. Riots break out around the Catholic boys school that I'm going to. The boys I'm going to school with come in angry about what's happening. You know, people don't understand, don't get it. And so you, you look back, I look back on my journey, and that was a huge shaping influence of my first 25 years. I go in the army and, and I see the same, you know, racial tensions playing out and you know how. And yet along the way, Jay, as is the case in the military, you have these wonderful moments, wonderful aluminum illuminating moments because you are interdependent. You have to work together to make things happen. Often under stressful circumstances, you learn to see people very differently. Whatever bring to the equation, what you learn is the most beautiful thing which you'll come to admire in anybody is their willingness to pull their weight to. To. To be shoulder to shoulder with you at a common task, in a common task. You forgive me if I offend anybody who's listening. You don't care where they came from, what they think, what they believe in, who they sleep with. It's Just can we work together and can we join together as a community? Right? Can we find a way to function and do what's important for to do, Right? It's incredibly beautiful when you can be that practical and look past everything else and just say, let's get it done. Let's make it work, because we have to. And if you see in my writing today, Jay, how often I'll use the phrase as our holy grail in fundraising and philanthropy, building a stronger community of shared purpose.
- [20:22]
Jay Frost
How did you end up in the Army, Jim?
- [20:25]
Jim Langley
Ah, so, you know, it's late Vietnam period. I'm in the last year of the draft. I'm moving furniture, right. I come from modest means. I never thought I could go to college. My, my family fell apart, so I was on my own at a young age. Put myself through the last year of high school, then had some rough patches, got a job moving furniture, eventually got into the Teamsters Union. I thought I was at the top of the world economically. And then in the last year of the draft, I draw a very high number, 28. So I know I'm going in, so I volunteer. I know I have to go in, so I figured, well, if we go go, I'm going to go as a volunteer. And it worked out well for me because I had a delayed entry. And so my training class was the first one to have no member of it sent to Vietnam. Oh, right. So I'm right in that cusp when Kissinger announced pieces at hand. My brother, who's nine years older, does two tours in Vietnam. Every male in my family before then has served in the military. So, you know, it's second nature to me. I'm not, I'm not resisting Vietnam again. I'm from that background. And so, you know, that shapes my political views today in the sense that I saw this tension emerging in our society way back when between civil rights and Vietnam that we're still struggling with today. But I, I'm much more of a bridging personality. I'm. I'm much more about wanting us to heal than taking a side. So I get drafted into the or, you know, volunteer in the face of the draft, Ms. Just Ms. Vietnam and get put into a. Become a surveyor in a missile unit doing a very sophisticated kind of survey, which is basically trigonometry on a massive scale. Trigonometry covering hundreds of miles. Very sophisticated trigonometry. So you could find very specific coordinates from which to launch a missile that would stop the Soviets should they come west across the folder gap. Of Czechoslovakia. It would be the only place where they could move massive amounts of men and materiel. And so we were prepared to hold them off for 48 hours until the 82nd Airborne could get over.
- [22:55]
Jay Frost
Where were you stationed at this point?
- [22:57]
Jim Langley
Geese in Germany. I like to say that not a single Soviet got past my post in the two years that I was there.
- [23:06]
Jay Frost
And I, I'm trying to imagine what it must have felt like to be dealing with issues of Armageddon.
- [23:13]
Jim Langley
Yes, it was, Jay. And so coming off of Vietnam one, you saw what happened in Vietnam. You saw a large amount of drug use in the military, including among the non commissioned officers, disturbingly so. So I get in and you see the headache, the after effects of Vietnam had a very debilitating effect on the military. And then of course, you, you, you are thrown into this sort of pitched moment where nuclear war. You remember, you and I grew up, I think you're younger than me, but we, we had drills of getting under the desk, you know, should there be atom bomb dropped as described at the time? Right. And so you grew up with the, my generation grew up with this notion that it could happen. Right. And then it reached that fever peak pitch. And then in the Nixon administration, he was, as everyone knows, he was sort of a global chess player. He was crafty. He was always trying to keep both China and the Soviet Union off balance. So we would be called out in the middle of the night as if we were being called to battle stations. They'd pack up everything, put the missiles on the trailers, move to a place where we could launch an attack from. And it was a bluff. But we didn't know that he was actually letting it be known to help negotiate a settlement in the Vietnam War, knowing that China and Russia were sort of aiding and abetting. He was letting it known that he might call their bluff or punish them somehow. So, you know, he's moving us in the middle of the night, not just me, but military units with the notion of they, they will pick up on and go, what on earth is going on? What does this suggest about what Nixon will or won't do? So you get caught up in that global chess game, but always wondering, what on earth is going on? But you know when you're doing that, that it's consequential. At the time, we didn't know it. I had a top secret clearance as an enlisted man. But you know, those missiles that we had were tactical nuclear warheads.
- [25:35]
Jay Frost
I, I'm just thinking about the timeline here. You were 11 during the Cuban Missile crisis, and then you were probably 21 at the time much of this is happening. So that's. That's. There's some trauma in that. Yes, sure. If you never know that this drill you're being called on at 3am is real or is it not?
- [25:57]
Jim Langley
That's such a good pickup, you know, because you take it for granted. Is it something you go through in your life and others are going through the same thing? You take it for granted, but it affects people in different ways. I mean, I think some people, in the face of that trauma, sort of say, live for today and they become sort of, you know, more. I don't know, the most. The kindest way to describe it, but, you know, live for today and sort of grab what you can. And it affected me. The opposite way is, you know, why are we here? What is the meaning of life? So I was deeply philosophical at a young age and asking myself big questions about, you know, what is it that you. You hold on to that guides your life through moments, emotional, personal, international. That seems so fragile. And for me, it was this, you know, very strong sense of ethics.
- [27:00]
Jay Frost
You.
- [27:00]
Jim Langley
Know, that became that. My. My lodestar was a profound ethical orientation that what we have is each other.
- [27:10]
Jay Frost
So you're in the military doing this pretty extraordinary thing. And. But you had said it right before that you fended for yourself, which is pretty remarkable. And you didn't think you'd ever have college. And you spent a lot of your professional life, not only, you know, after getting your own education, but working with educational institutions and helping them to advance their work. But. But at that point, you didn't even know if college was for you. So there you are in the military, you're doing this thing that's pretty terrifying. How did you transition from that? How long were you there? And then how did you transition from that to this next phase of your life, which I guess must have been education and then journalism. Very different way of viewing the world, right?
- [27:54]
Jim Langley
That's it, Jay. That's it. So I. Exactly right. So, you know, I'm in the military as I'm an enlisted man, and while it's consequential for me, it's not interesting, it's not fulfilling. So I'm always going to commanding officer and say, can. Can't you give me more to do? You know, I'd like to do this and how about that? They would give me some more things to do. But without realizing it, you know, I needed some greater challenge. I had. I was blessed to be born with some Processing power and some capacity. And so I was always feeling like, okay, can't you give me more to do? They were very nice about it, but you know, you can't make a Spec 4. You know, I can't give him major responsibility. But I kept clarifying for, I look back and I must have been a hoot to some of those commanding officers about this guy coming in to give me a better job, you know, as if military structure really didn't matter. So, so then, you know, they say you have the GI Bill and you go, wow, I could afford college. And since, you know, I'm already. I was married at the age of 20, I'm already married, I'm going back home to Cincinnati. I go, well, I might as well go to the University of Cincinnati. So I apply. But keep in mind, you know, not only was on my own when I was 16, but my, because my personal circumstances were what, a little bit less than ideal, was not the best student. I was up and down, up and down, up and down. But you know, I was sometimes working weekends to make ends meet. So I would work Friday night through Saturday morning and turn around and do the same thing. Sometimes working overnight to make money to pay rent. I was hiding the fact that I was by myself because I didn't want to be put in a foster home. So I had to pretend, you know, and I was always making up stories to cover the fact that I was by myself. That's, that's hard too on a young person. So I didn't have anything like the social life or the dating life of anyone else. But you know, I, I go to, then I go to college and it's like a kid in a candy shop. So my parents, I didn't tell you, my very interesting parents early in their lives, both kind of dreamers, wanted to be actors, particularly Shakespearean actors. They met on the stage in New York. It didn't work out, so they had to go get real jobs. But they always maintained this love of Shakespeare and stayed involved in amateur theater, particularly when Shakespeare was available. My mother, as a kind of a side light in the mid-1960s, developed a program for junior high school students called Shakespeare for those who Think Young. And she toured local schools and did a one woman show on Shakespearean soliloquies. So I am not your usual person. So for all of you who keep trying to figure me out, now you know how I, I came from a very uncommon cloth. But so I'm exposed this. I get to college, I'm like a kid in a Candy shop. Because I got somebody underwriting my education, my brain starts to open up and I want to study everything, but it's all about humanism. So of course I take English because my parents Irish words are incredibly important. Irish verbalism is astonishing. Highly prized. Wit is highly prize. So I'm studying English and I'm studying Shakespeare, but anthropology, psychology. I am just thrilled with the human experience and it's all its many wondrous dimensions. And then I went on to get a master's degree in history because I was interested in the historical context of Shakespeare's plays and therefore the Tudor period. So. So just think about this. So moving furniture before. And then I go back and move furniture because I'm in the Teamsters union and I move furniture before I go to college to make some extra money just for like four or five months. And I got the GI Bill, I've got some savings from being in a Teamsters union. I'm having this wondrous intellectual expansion. And then I start doing journalism as a side. And this fellow writing for a college.
- [32:27]
Jay Frost
Paper, writing for a local.
- [32:29]
Jim Langley
Oh, even. Even more astonishing, I said, this is where again, now I look at it in the spiritual side of me reawakens like, Jim, I don't know how much you had to do with this, right? So while I'm, yes, I'm writing for the school newspaper, but this enterprising fellow in Cincinnati sees a weak weekly newspaper and says it's down on its luck, it can't survive. And for a modest amount of money, he buys a weekly newspaper and decides to turn it into kind of those ones that's full of ad into something that's a kind of a journalistic shining star. So he buys the. And calls it the Cincinnati Reporter. And who knows, for whatever reason, somebody notices when I start telling you how my writing opened doors for somebody notices my writing, says, go talk to Randy. Randy says, oh, yeah, we love your writing. And basically lets me do anything. So I do book reviews, I do human interest stories, I do expose. I'm in college. And so my writing is getting noticed and I'm flowering in so many ways. So again, just feeling incredibly privileged for all that's happening to me. So everybody pegs me, you know, my colleagues and I oh, Jim's going to be somehow the next great writer. I'm going to be a novelist. I'm going to be something like this because everybody's saying I write well and. But, you know, again, what's that journey like? A little bit like my parents is that you know, I'm married. We have a child on the way. Novelists don't make a lot of money. So I have an experience where I try to quickly go out to Hollywood and sell screenplays. And it's, it's. It's kind of a tawdry experience. And what I. And what I get exposed to and, you know, it's kind of a meat parade. I was a. A fairly good looking young man. I went out there and people were really interested in my words and many of them didn't really care if I were married or not. So, you know, it was a bit of a shock. So, you know, I, when I came back to Cincinnati, I was like, well, glad I tried that. And I had no interest in, in being a screenwriter after that. And maybe my experience was a little harsh. Maybe other people had better experiences. So then it's like, well, where do I work? Where do I work? And this job comes open, generating publicity at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, the news bureau. I look at the credentials, Jay, and I don't have any of them, other than I think they even were asking for a master's. I have a bachelor's because I hadn't gotten my master's. It took 10 years more to get my master's because I was working, raising a family. So I applied for the job anyway. And I send two writing samples. One of the writing samples I sent is a human interest story about a woman who was a potter and was attacked viciously by a roofer who tried to kill her but didn't succeed. But he blinded her and he maimed her. Very serious ways. She survived and she continued to make pottery. And so I was moved by her story and I told her story right and told, you know, she was very honest about coping and how people helped her. Didn't help. And, you know, I was very proud of the story because I listened. And she was, she was poignant, she was brave, she was remarkable. And that story sat there for a couple of years. So I send my poultry resume in, I send two writing samples. What I didn't remember was that woman was a graduate of Miami University. People had read that article at Miami University. They were classmates of her, they knew her well. And somebody takes, apparently tells me later, pulls my resume out of the pile, sees the writing sample and says, we need to talk to him. He wrote this story. And everybody goes, oh, that story. So Jay, I get then call up to Miami. I don't have the greatest, but they're so moved by the story, they hire me to Generate publicity. Because I've been a journalist and a freelance writer, it comes very easily for me and they're happy with the results. Year and a half later I get promoted to the head of the news bureau.
- [36:53]
Jay Frost
And I'm thinking a lot of people who are devoted to journalism, the idea of going into communications inside someplace, not appealing, but you found, you found a.
- [37:06]
Jim Langley
Home there not appealing. So, so what's interesting was that I insisted that good journalism would be good publicity. So I wrote stories that had some grit and some angle to it and even some confessional elements to it. It was a little unsettling. But for instance, once the I think it was the bureau chief for Associated Press in Columbus saw my press releases and started putting them on the wire. Imagine a press release that goes as is from an institution, not from a writer, not from a media outlet, goes out on the wire. Then the press clippings come in from around the country because people pick up on strong human interest stories. I'm writing human interest stories for Miami about people overcoming adversity, students, faculty, whatever. The woman who headed the office for you know, what it was called, handicapped services at the time. So you know again that I think the gift my mother gives to me to see human nature in this benevolent way is causing people to respond to me. A new president comes in, very unhappy with a speech that's written for him. And he says to his executive assistant, is there anybody here who can write a speech? And here I am, you know, snot nosed kid, recently promoted to the news bureau. Well, that young guy seems to have a flare. So with 45 minutes notice I'm asked to rewrite a speech for the present. And you know when you're young and your fearless, you just. I had strong, still have strong opinions about everything. So I right away on regional economic development, what I think should be done. He quite likes it. He quite likes it, goes with it and it's well received. Paul Pearson. So one of the great people in my life, former president, zoologist, very almost like Calvin Coolidge, no affect whatsoever, but a deep beautiful heart, right? So he starts asking me to write speeches for him. And I pick up on the fact that he's got this kind of stone face. And so I put lines in his speech like when he's speaking to the students for some year end address. He says it's so nice to see Grace Slick back with Jefferson Starship. And they break up and so he can't figure out why they're laughing. And he doesn't realize I'm putting Lines playing off his stuff. But he loves it. So he loves it. He says, jim, I've never gotten laughs like this before. This is. And the students love my talk. So here I am writing speeches for the present. He's. And such a. He was so important to me, Jay, because he opened so many doors. He wrote so many references for me. I just can't thank him enough. But he would go around saying to people, they'd say, what a great speech, Paul. And he'd go, jim Langley wrote it. I'd go to him and say, paul, you can't tell people I wrote your speech. You're the president. So even then, in my late 20s, I'm saying to the president, you can't do this. He goes, oh, no. Jim Langley, right, has no ego whatsoever. And then the other thing I saw, Jay, was when people didn't know that I could write words, he would say them, and then people would go around quoting him. Paul said, X. And I realized while I was trying to write for Paul, the phrasing was mine. So the words had. Words sometimes have more power when they are separated from the person, because what they would have seen was a young man. And so does. Oh, that's. But when it came from a present, the imputation was, well, that's. That's weighty. That's meaningful. So that then told me how important it was to, you know, not write from the perspective of you would try to write something that had weight and meaning, no matter, you know. And so I did a lot of speech writing. I did ghostwriting for a lot of commencement speakers because they would offer my services to commencement speakers. So anyway, and this was. This was a loop in my life. So when I moved to Virginia, just so you get this, of all the people in the world, you will get this, Jay. And I think by imputation, the people who listen to you will get this. Who you. Who you. When you sort of get a preview of who you're going to be. I moved to Roanoke, Virginia. Five, going on six. Virginia is very good about teaching state history. And so you start learning Virginia history very early in your education. Everything in Virginia is named for Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry Hotel. Patrick Henry High School. Patrick or junior high school. So this young, curious boy goes, well, who's Patrick Henry? And I find in the World Book Encyclopedia, which my mother bought for us, you know, well, before the Internet, we had World Book Encyclopedia. I look up Patrick Henry, and I find this speech that he makes before the House of Burgesses. But Jay, when I read, even as a boy, I don't read through my eyes. I hear it in my ears. And Patrick Henry says, is life so dear or peace so sweet to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery forbidded almighty God? I know not course what others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death. And what you just did is, see, I heard the cadence. So here I am at a boy, and I go, oh, my good words can be marshaled in a way, when they're put to a cadence to draw tremendous attention to an important issue or a cause. Flash forward, you know what? 25 years later, there I am writing speeches for a number of people, hearing the words and then watching how they come out of other people's voices, trying to get the cadence of the speaker I'm writing for and then being deeply frustrated when the speaker misses my cadence or his cadence, right? It's like, oh, you just botched the poetry of it. You cut the line in half. But think about this phenomenal life, right, of which I think I have so little to do with other than having a curious mind. And then from the time I am hired as an unqualified writer to my first vice presidency is eight and a half years.
- [43:41]
Jay Frost
That is pretty swift.
- [43:44]
Jim Langley
37 years of age, right?
- [43:46]
Jay Frost
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Jim Langley
Georgia Tech vice president. Everybody in my peer groups, 10, 15 years older. Every other vice president's 10 or 15 years older.
- [43:53]
Jay Frost
Now, I don't know what it was like at that moment in time, but I don't often hear about the trajectory from communications to leading up. You often hear today, as you know, about people jumping from role to role and looking for people who are essentially really good at closing. And I mean, respect in that. It's just. That's full and asking and hopefully receiving significant gifts. And all of that is great. But that's not the same thing as finding the story or the way of conveying the information in a way that inspires people to do something, which is quite different. How did you find that path from helping people to find the poetry in the story and then convey it in a way that inspired people, and then go to the administration of a shop that had to hit certain financial goals every quarter and where there was probably very little latitude for poetry because often the president's office is not necessarily looking for, you know, iambic pentameter. They're looking for, you know, I don't know.
- [45:02]
Jim Langley
There was very little room for poetry at Georgia Tech. I mean, I learned so much there, and they were wonderful. But I was often referred to as the only right Brain person at Georgia Tech. And sometimes they say, well, it's nice how he speaks, but you know, how about a graph? How about a picture? How about a chart? Wouldn't that be clear, Jim, if you just put it on a chart. And you know, in many ways they were right. So yeah, that's the, that of course that differentiates me. So again, Paul person is the first person to say you need to go talk and work with the people in development, as he referred to it then. And you know, my first reaction was like hell. And, and to be blunt, my impression of the fundraising staff at that time was largely male people in suits bustling around in a very self important way. I thought they didn't, they didn't seem like. It seemed posturing to me. Right. And I thought, and that was my thought like hell. But Paul could read the thought and he said, Jim, it doesn't have to be that way. He said, what you'll discover is some people are innately philanthropic. They're just trying to figure out where and how to exercise it. So don't think about it as twisting people's arms or talking people into something they wouldn't do otherwise. Think about finding a path for them to do what they're predisposed to do that's most meaningful for them. And Jay, I said, well I can do that. And why could I do that? I'm an interviewer. That's what I do. Well is I listen, I interview, I get the emotional story. So think about that. I'm starting to meet with donors who haven't quite run into this curious journalist who starts asking deeper questions than they've been asked before and they quite like, you know, Jay, I think I mentioned on your earlier podcast, the great compliment of my career is not being a party to the transfer of billions of dollars, but being asked repeated times to deliver eulogies at donors funerals. I listen. I was a biographer, I was a journalist. When they passed on their surviving spouse would call and say, he always, he for me wanted you to speak for he thought you understood him. So my curiosity was much bigger than fundraising and it made me and the operations I ran been far more effective at fundraising.
- [47:22]
Jay Frost
I just have to ask you to put a fine point on that for people who might miss the moral of that story. Why is it so important to all these people to have had someone ask them these questions to give them space to talk about these things? Why is that important?
- [47:38]
Jim Langley
Thank you. Because if you pay attention to human nature, even if it's in its most benevolent form, you discover all of us want to be heard, all of us want to be accepted. And none of us like being reduced to a kind of a single dimension, including donor. And we're learning the painful lessons of that now. So that when you embrace someone as a set of values, as a journey, as a biography, and you take the time to listen and to care, the. When the subject of money is broached, you're seen as not extractive, manipulative, but as an agent of philanthropy, as a facilitator. You're brought into the family circle, you're invited on family vacations, you are seen as an aide, not as someone who's trying to steer or manipulate people. So by taking more time, by showing greater interest, by not rushing, I saw things happen. So people were skeptical of me, said, well, he's a communicator, he's not a fundraiser. That was the rap on me as a 37 year old. But he's a communicator, he's not a fundraiser. It was a little dismissive of the old guard. Yeah, well, Jim's off doing his own thing, but, you know, we're. But, Jay, after about two and a half years, numbers came in like they hadn't seen before. Gift sizes came in they hadn't seen before. And again, I don't attribute that to me personally, but again to what was imparted to me, how my life was shaped and guided so that I brought that into fundraising. But here's the hard part. You said numbers had to be met. So three vice presidencies and probably two and a half years into each vice presidency, most of the powers that be are saying, I don't think he can cut it. I don't think he can make it. He's not producing fast enough. Enough.
- [49:40]
Jay Frost
Were they direct about this with you?
- [49:42]
Jim Langley
So. Oh, yeah. So sometimes I had to talk. Well, Jim, everybody, you know, when people like you see what you're doing, it's creative what you're doing, but where are the numbers? Where are the results? And, you know, this year we need to see better numbers. So here I was listening, putting down footings. So it's this funny thing, Jay, that you'd see the uptick after about two, little more than two, two and a half years of, of the listening, of the taking the time, all of a sudden. But that period of doing, of spending the necessary time with people often put me in the crosshairs of people questioning how capable I was.
- [50:20]
Jay Frost
Did you have any doubts as you went through that process? Because even if you'd had success in the place before. And you've done this at not just Georgia Tech, but it was San Diego, Georgetown. Did you at a certain point say, well, I don't know, is this, is it going to work here? Is this.
- [50:37]
Jim Langley
I had, and I can't explain it, and I take no credit for it, but at an early age, where there was a confrontation, where I was a university spokesperson and I was told to say something I didn't think was credible and in the nicest way, professional way, I said, no, that will destroy the credibility of the operation. And if you, if you need me to resign, I, I will do so. And I will do so without rancor or bitterness. Like 30, 28, 9, 20, 30. Right. Jay I was filled with peace when I said it. I called my wife and I said, I may not have a job when I come home. She said, no worries. And I was filled with peace. And the president ultimately was the one who became my great champion. You know, he was anxious and all of a sudden he realized I was not being stubborn. I was trying to protect his credibility as a new president. I was trying to protect the credibility of the institution, that I was actually a conscientious person who was trying to help the institution. He then became my greatest champion. So he backed off the demand about what I should say as a public spokesperson, public press spokesperson, and became my great champion. But so this, I think, is my great gift. Maybe we're all given gifts. I had that ethical peace of mind throughout my career, that that was what would differentiate me. That's what would serve me well. That's what would make my name, that's what would set me apart. And it did. Why?
- [52:08]
Jay Frost
Because you were committed to that and those principles were the foundation of all this. Even if you hadn't been successful, you'd still be operating by those same principles. You don't change who you are.
- [52:18]
Jim Langley
That's it. So that's, I determined was, no, this is who I am. I'm going in this direction. And that's what I would advise young people is, is don't, you know, don't be sassy, stubborn, unprofessional, but don't succumb to norms that you find uncomfortable or compromising. Don't do that and, and realize that it is your ethics. And you know, ethics are in part not just stubborn principles, but far seeing principles about what it takes to build credibility over time, to build community over time, that when you stay with those, you know, you develop a kind of personal brand. So, you know, here you are talking to me. You're a hugely accomplished, impressive man.
- [53:01]
Jay Frost
You're.
- [53:01]
Jim Langley
You're listening to me. Maybe the role should be reversed. Maybe I should be listening to you better. But, you know, and other people seek my opinion out. I get quoted around the world. I get nice notes from people in countries. I'm surprised they would even care about anything I had to say. And I'm just filled with. Not pride, but whoever, whatever gave me that gift and that strength to call upon. Gabe. Sorry. Gave me the best, richest, most wonderful life.
- [53:35]
Jay Frost
I. I do have a few more things I want to ask you, but I have to ask you about your wife, because you've. You've tagged her a couple times in this story, and I don't know if you're still together.
- [53:47]
Jim Langley
We're not.
- [53:48]
Jay Frost
You're not?
- [53:49]
Jim Langley
Yes.
- [53:50]
Jay Frost
It sounds like the support of a family at critical times, whether it was your mother, the way you talked about her, and then your wife later on in their career, these things were quite important, I'm sure. Children as well.
- [54:03]
Jim Langley
Right. We were married 30 years, and she came from very humble background. Her parents came from coal country and in middle Tennessee. I'm sorry, middle Kentucky. And, you know, so she grew up very modest means. And so she was never put off by power or trappings. It was like, well, that's not real anyway. Right. So that was wonderful to have a wife that was deeply practical, rooted, frugal, just not impressed with puffer.
- [54:38]
Jay Frost
Well. And clearly neither of you were. And so now when it comes to this transition you made from these campaigns, these institutions, and some of them were very large. I think it was a billion dollars or so.
- [54:52]
Jim Langley
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [54:55]
Jay Frost
I. How did you decide to make this transition to doing what you do today? And for those who don't know what it is, I mean, who don't read your work, how would you describe it? What is this stage of life right now that you're. That you're in?
- [55:09]
Jim Langley
Oh, I think I'm. I think I'm a champion of philanthropy, that I see it as the best in human nature. I remain in awe of that in people in whatever dimension or size. It is that a desire to help others, to give of yourself, is the most beautiful part of human nature. And so I'm in all of that. I remain a champion of that. And I'm critical of fundraising practices that gnaw at that, that diminish it. It. When, in fact, the best fundraising practices should be empowering it and allowing it to flourish. We want to extract too much too soon, when, in fact if we would just lift our eyes, we would see spending more time nurturing the philanthropic would produce more significant sustainable yields to our benefit and to the joy of givers. I think it's our desperate short term transactional inclinations that are gnawing at the beauty of, and the potential dimension, the greater dimension of philanthropy.
- [56:16]
Jay Frost
What do you think is the root of that kind of decline into transactionality?
- [56:23]
Jim Langley
That is a question for the ages. And believe me, I've struggled with this over and over and again. I fear that it's abundance itself, that in fact, when we were at our peak in terms of the strength of the middle class, the benevolent giving to the non profit world, to the innately baby boom and World War II generation, because of the prosperity of the 50s and the 60s, that, that the philanthropic fields were so bountiful, the harvest came so easy, that we just took for granted that the root system would be there, that the nutrients. And we just became obsessed with harvesting and mechanizing the harvest faster and faster and getting more and more. And then it became an obsession as to who could get more the fastest. It became a kind of a club as to who could, oh, if they got, got 10 million, we should. If they got 50 million, we should. If they Got 100 million, we should. And of course, in universities you saw the billion dollar club. Once somebody got a billion dollars, then we had to get in there. And, and you weren't anything until you got into the club. Right. And, and you just lost sight of everything that you and I have been talking about. And now we're being painfully reacquainted with the consequences of, of mechanizing philanthropy.
- [57:49]
Jay Frost
And it seems like it extends beyond that. I mean, the things you're talking about, all these lessons that you've been sharing that you had throughout your life and you've been applying your work are not just about philanthropy at all, are they?
- [58:00]
Jim Langley
No, they're not. So that's, that's the other thing, and that's what I love. Jay, when you and others go, oh, Jim, you're talking about much more than philanthropy. You're talking about how we function as a society. You're talking how much important it is to see past differences. So, Jay, one of the things, you know, I want to work on going forward is there's a whole industry out there that's dividing us. There's a whole industry, and it's not intentional. I'm saying it's a controversy, but there's an industry and a lot of people are making money dividing us. And What I like to imagine is, let's say we're in a big state park where lots of family reunions are going on. On one side of a river or a creek are people from red states, on the other side, people from blue states. And we look askance at each other. There's a river between us. The river's growing. We're saying unkind things about each other. But let a child from any one of those families fall in that creek and see the current pick that child up and carry them closer to death, doom, damage. We don't care who jumps in the creek to save that child. If we're on the red side and somebody blue saves that child, we love that person or vice versa. So it tells me there's something far more important than political ideology. And one way of. About thinking about it is our children. What are we doing for our children so that they can pursue happiness, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, so that they can see, like my mother taught me, the good in people, irrespective of where they come from or how pocketed or scarred their faces are. We have industries causing us to say, didn't you see this ugly thing in them? And when they said that, wasn't that terrible? And shouldn't they be ashamed of that? And don't we want to own those people and. And crush them? And I can only hope that if I could contribute in any way, they go, no, we don't want to crush anybody. We don't want to ridicule anybody. We don't want to belittle anybody. We want to find the philanthropy in them, and we want to overcome any sort of ideological divide to create stronger communities of shared purpose.
- [60:24]
Jay Frost
Can we do much about that in our field? I mean, you're doing your part, clearly, even talking about it right now, but there are a lot of us, there are thousands of us that are on the front lines of something that is trying to bring in revenue or discuss mission or talk about a new program or the people that we serve, the constituents we have. Is there much that we can do? If someone listened to this and then they thought, well, yeah, but I'm not. I'm not, Jim.
- [60:57]
Jim Langley
Right.
- [60:58]
Jay Frost
You know, I believe that people would jump in the river for that child, too. But what am I supposed to do here behind my desk? What would you say?
- [61:05]
Jim Langley
Yeah, I love your question, Jay. And it's, you know, just what I would suggest is, you know, think about the inherent worth and dignity of every person, no matter who you are, where you are, try to live that that if you meet somebody who's ideologically opposed to you, try to find what made them the way they are. They weren't that way as a child. Try to understand the journey that made them that way. Try to show them respect. So when I'm with a person that I find difficult, the most important for me is not to agree, but show them I respect them and that I'm not using that to exclude them or to look down on them or condemn them. So one of the things I would ask for all of us, every organization, is to remember the first principle of diplomacy and remember how important diplomacy is in world affairs. Because diplomacy is the last step before war and death and destruction. And what's the first principle of diplomacy? Keep talking, keep listening, keep trying to hear, keep trying to identify. So all of us can carry that principle forward. Then even think about our institution, about deconstructing language that is unwittingly ideological and make it more neutral. For instance, diversity has become on both sides, carved out for ideological purposes. But Jay, when I'm with CEOs who are conservative, they recognize that their future workforce is going to be more diverse, their future customer base is going to be more diverse. They're not anti diversity, but what they don't like is an ideological component being told what to do about it. When you get diversity back into it's inevitable, it's practical, it's going to happen. How do we make it work in such a way where we're more united than divided? And that's where I criticize this industry that keeps trying to find something that the potentially ugly that the other party said, spin it and say why you should be angry, as opposed to where's the industry saying, can we listen a bit more closely? Can we give them the benefit of the doubt? And can we try to see our common humanity and watch what happens? So I have strong, sometimes political beliefs, and yet I have friends who I adore who come to a different conclusion, sometimes bewildering to me. But I know the goodness in them. I know, for instance, you know, I could rely on them if I were facing a major challenge. And in some cases I could put my life in their hands and know that they would do their damnedest and they would do well. I think we've let ourselves become captives of a politically ideological dividing machine in which a lot of people are making money separating us from each other.
- [64:06]
Jay Frost
Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. If you would like to learn more about our guest today, visit LangleyInnovations.com or follow him on LinkedIn. Our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the world leader in AI and donor research for nonprofit fundraising. Our producer is Jack Frost and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise, and come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.